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View Full Version : Should there be weight divisions in tennis?


deftman
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:17 PM
ok I know this may sound like a ridiculous idea , but after watching the doubles final my mind really changed.
I initially wanted V/S to win , but after watching Vivi and Paola , my heart fell for them. They had some brilliant stratergies and game plans , which were being executed perfectly. Watching these players was a pleasure.

And then I noticed that Venus and Serena simply used their muscle power. There was not much doubles stratergy used. I wonder how much they had practised as a team(?)


If you play power tennis , the only stratergy involved is to get the ball on the other side of the net

As blunt as it may seem , this makes some sense. I realised that in the Kim match , it was all on Serena's racquet. As long as Serena's powerful shots reached the other side of the net , Kim could do nothing about it.
Tennis is essentially like a game of chess , where you have to use the right combinations or spins and shots to outwit your opponent. But essentially when it comes down to power ,stratergy doesnt count , as you've just got to pray that opponent makes the error.

Originally posted by griffin
If you you have the ability, with one shot, to put a ball where your opponent can't return it (due to placement/speed/whatever), what kind of "strategy" is it to hit the ball so that they can retunr it? To give them a chance to put the ball where YOU can't return it?

Is that strategy or stupidity? No truly smart player is going to use three shots (and provide 3 opportunities for error) where one will do.



That's an interesting viewpoint , but you know what? When you are facing the super-fast serves of Serena , unless you have an IQ of 180 , you cannot plan any of your shots , and people have to just impulsively hit them. Sure , when you have the time , you can plan your shots , but when playing against a powerful person , you obviously wouldnt have the time to think at all.

Yes I know that Patty and Justine have beaten Serena , but let's face it , that's been only because of the rusty form of Serena.
In short , when the Williams are hitting the shots powerfully , and not making errors , there's nothing that even a highly intellegent person can do. There is no answer to Power in general.

As much as I appreciate the sheer genius of Richard Williams , in identifying the significance of power, this is a huge disadvantage to small players. Now , a person under 5'8" can never ever become No.1 in the world. Power has now become an integral part of women's tennis , and that is why I feel there should be weight divisions.

Like sports in Greco-Roman wrestling , if two people weighing 200 pounds each played each other , there would be some stratergy involved. Both people in this case , as equally equipped , and it comes down to your speed and moves.

But say , if a 200 pound person , were playing a 100 pound person , there would be no stratergy involved. The 200 pound person has to just push the smaller person , and he's done.

There has been a lot of talk of mixing the game , that would probably upset power players , but it actually it would not.
These tall , powerful players would easily reach out to the ball , and smack it on the other side.
If there were two or more weight divisions , we will be seeing more interesting matches. The power players will play amongst themselves , and will have to use stratergy to outwit each other.
And smaller girls who simply cannot become power players , can play among themselves , and develop their own stratergies.
Right now , you will see some upsets in a blue-moon , but in the long run , only the tall and big players will continue to dominate.
I am in no way trying to put down the achievements of Venus and Serena ,but right now , we have just 2 , but soon everyone in the top 100 maybe made up of such players , and people below 5'6" will have no hope.

deftman
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:23 PM
Well as far as I know , beauty doent help you in making better shots...

tennisfan1972
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:24 PM
And most importantly race divisions. lets just put the truth out there. Shyt why beat around the bush?

griffin
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:26 PM
I'm starting to think we should divy up fans into certain catagories.

Has anyone seen nitwit ideas like this posted about the men?

Freewoman33
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:26 PM
What about hair division. Blondes on one side, Brunettes on the other and the brown hair girls on yet another side.

hehehehehe

deftman
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:26 PM
Well race doesnt help you in making better shots too...

Cybelle Darkholme
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:27 PM
Monica Seles plays power tennis.
Jennifer Capriati plays power tennis.
Lindsay Davenport plays power tennis.
Jelena Dokic plays power tennis.
Kim plays power tennis.


also richard williams did not identify the significance of power. Martina N began the power game followed by monica and steffi. monica is ALL baseline power.

only the tall and big players will dominate? didn't justine just beat lindsay!

also the strategy of power players is not just to get the ball on the otherside of the net. there is such a thing called placement, nailing the corners, painting the lines. that takes skill, but i guess you think the ball magically hits the lines and corners.

But say , if a 200 pound person , were playing a 100 pound person , there would be no stratergy involved. The 200 pound person has to just push the smaller person , and he's done.

thats really a laugh. how do u explain juju beating lindsay? how do you explain martina h whipping venus and serena last year at the ao? face it you can't. its not about power at all, its about skill and execution. whoever executes their game to the greater degree will most likely win.

funny that you dont see this discussion on the mens side of the game. i wonder why that is.

sorry but power doesnt help you make better shots. skill does. once again i point out lucic. she has just the same power as the top ten gals but does that help her? please explain that to me?

tennisfan1972
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:29 PM
So weighing a few extra pounds helps u make better shots? WTF Is that why Lindsay is struggling because of her new weight loss?
What a revelation!

deftman
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:29 PM
Nor do the kind of fans or kind of hair help in making better shots.
Power does. Does that make sense?

Cybelle Darkholme
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:33 PM
deftman, how do you explain the succes of the roachus brohters of belgium? they have beaten guys twice their size and weight. please explain that.

you can't just simplify the issue with juvenille thinking. "oh she's bigger so she's going to win." "oh shes stronger so she's going to win." Tennis is not arm wrestling, if you haven't figured that out by now then I'm thinking you dont know much about the sport.

tennisfan1972
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:33 PM
So u think skill, fitness, work ethic, determination, athleticism, and strategy have nothing to do with shot making? just power huh? and when exactly did all of this epiphany hit you like a ton of bricks?

Not to mention mental toughness. we saw alot of mental toughness on display this fortnight to know that it plays a huge part.

griffin
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:34 PM
Bingo.

deftman
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:36 PM
You have got to be kidding if you state that power does not matter at all.
Sure juju beat lindsay , Patty beat Serena , Kim beat Venus .
There are 1000's of factors that count in a match. If your opponent is rusty , no matter how powerful he/she is , you win the match.
But in the long run , power is what has distinguished these players from the rest. If you saw the doubles match yesterday , you would understand what I meant. Despite the best of stratergy from V/P , they didnt have any answers to the power of Venus and Serena. It isnt possible to have an answer as such. In the same way , I dont think Hingis could ever beat Venus /Serena , unless they suck on that day. She is a master strategist , but whent the ball comes your way quick , you dont have the time to think

And Monica and Jennifer are no doubt power players , but clearly not as powerful as the Williams. If you have noticed , they have often been overpowered by the Williams. For that matter , even Venus has been overpowered by Serena , the last few times.

Volcana
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:38 PM
There ARE weight divisions in tennis.

Everyone else has to 'wait' til Venus and Serena are done winning. :)

BK4ever
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:38 PM
just plain stupid...

I'm so SICK of people whining about power tennis.

Cybelle Darkholme
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:41 PM
Here since you still seem to be deaf deftman I will repeat what tennisfan said.
So u think skill, fitness, work ethic, determination, athleticism, and strategy have nothing to do with shot making? just power huh? and when exactly did all of this epiphany hit you like a ton of bricks?


yes of course power is an aspect of tennis, youre problem is that you are using it as the sole measure of a match. Youre wrong. Anyone who knows anything about tennis will tell you youre wrong. power is really the least important aspect! Martina hingis is not a power player yet she has 5 grandslams. please explain why she has five grandslams? did they just give them to her?

power alone does not win matches. Hello! Do you play tennis?

deftman
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:42 PM
When you play players who are on the same LEVEL of yours , skill, fitness, work ethic, determination, athleticism, and strategy are the ones that make all the difference. But please watch the Serena -Hingis match in US Open 2001.
Can you tell me ONE thing that Hingis could have done to win that match? She far from her best no doubt , but the fact is , Serena was hitting her shots so fast , Hingis had ABSOLUTELY no time to think. Skill , work-ethic etc , did not count here , as it was a question of REACHING out to the balls.

CanIGetAWhat
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by deftman
Nor do the kind of fans or kind of hair help in making better shots.
Power does. Does that make sense?

If power helps in making better shots, then how do you explain Mirjana Lucic and Mary Pierce's ranking? They both have as much power as the Williams sisters, Lindsay, Monica and Jennifer. Based on just pure power, Mary shouldn't have lost to Chanda and both should be ranked higher than they currently are.

frenchvee
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:44 PM
Deftman you know where you show your bias is when you single out venus and serena

cybelledarkholmexx said it so much better than me
but what kind of game do you think
capriati, davenport, kim, seles plays they play the same kind of game than venus and serena, except that the later two play it so much better.

i don't see kim using that much strategy

Cybelle Darkholme
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:47 PM
so how did martina beat venus in the 97 us open final? how did she beat venus in the 99 us open semi?

Youre problem is that you are simplfying the matter. You put too much emphasis on power and are blind to the other factors of tennis. People have pointed out the other factors and yet you still are blind.

To suggest that two people have the same motivation and determination? Like lindsay had in her match against tuly? sorry lindsay was down in the dirt and tuly was fighting her heart out. you generalize way too much and you come off as ignorant about the sport. Have you talked to coaches? Players? Even on the college level, they will inform you of what you refuse to see. Power is one aspect to the game of tennis you don't have to be the most powerful to win and just because you are the most powerful or more powerful does not mean you will win.

deftman
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:48 PM
yes of course power is an aspect of tennis, youre problem is that you are using it as the sole measure of a match. Youre wrong. Anyone who knows anything about tennis will tell you youre wrong. power is really the least important aspect! Martina hingis is not a power player yet she has 5 grandslams. please explain why she has five grandslams? did they just give them to her?

power alone does not win matches. Hello! Do you play tennis?

Well that was in 1997 , when the Williams were very inconsistent ,and made lots of errors.
Why isnt Hingis winning now? Because her stratergies are no use , unless she she the time to APPLY those stratergies. To THINK.
And when you hit the ball powerfully as the Williams, there is no way person can apply stratergy , because they dont have the TIME to think!

As I said , there may be exceptions , if the more powerful player is RUSTY , but when you have a 200 pound wrester , and a 100 pound wrestler , unless the 200 pound wrestler is DEPRESSED ,TIRED or SLEEPY(this is possible) , the 100 pounder cannot win with the BEST of stratergies!

Volcana
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:54 PM
deftman - And yet, oddly, 5'9 or 5'10" Serena when faced with oversized monsters who exceed her in height and weight, like Lindsay or Monica, seems to do just fine. Of course, superior SKILL and TECHNIQUE can make up for your opponent being taller and heavier.

Cybelle Darkholme
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:56 PM
why do you have this obsession with the williams sisters? the williams sisters are not the only power players! There were power players in 97 there were power players in 1990!

also you just shot down your own arugment.Well that was in 1997 , when the Williams were very inconsistent ,and made lots of errors.


so power wasn't that important, was it? CONSISTENCY WAS IMPORTANT! EXPERIENCE WAS IMPORTANT. Power didn't mean a dang thing without experience and consisntency, did it?

Even you recognize this because you wrote it however you have some deep rooted need to dismiss venus and serena. You need to find some way to rationalize why they win. No, it couldn't be because they have skill, desire, determination, experience, and fitnes.

No, that would mean they are truly great tennis players. We can't have that! My pyche can't handle that maybe they are better players than other players! I must find a way to rationalize their wins! I know, its because they have power!

Really it would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

ps:

so now youre comparing wrestling to tennis? No wonder there's no hope for your understanding.

deftman
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:57 PM
If power helps in making better shots, then how do you explain Mirjana Lucic and Mary Pierce's ranking? They both have as much power as the Williams sisters, Lindsay, Monica and Jennifer. Based on just pure power, Mary shouldn't have lost to Chanda and both should be ranked higher than they currently are.

You have got to be kidding if you say that Lucic or Pierce , or even Jennifer , Monica and Lindsay as powerful as Venus or Serena today. If you look back at the tapes of Serena and Lindsay , Serena clearly used the PACE of her shots to beat Lindsay. As far as I know , there was not much stratergy involved. And i frankly mean it!
The same goes for the doubles match yesterday. Vivi and Paola had everthing but the POWER. And that cost them the match!

I have nothing against Venus or Serena , as they are playing by the rules of the game , but trust me , a player like Hingis , can never become No.1 in the world now , because they cannot face up to the POWER of the Williams!
And this has now become the basic , basic factor .
Sure Hingis may beat Venus a couple of times. But in the long run , Venus will keep winning , as Hingis will not be given the time to THINK!!
The very basis of APPLICATION of skill , is TIME!
And TIME to reach the ball , and hit it is , controlled by the POWER of your opponent!

I am not looking at this singularly , but taking the entire picture in mind. To apply SKILL or TALENT or STRATEGY , you need to REACH out to the ball first!!

tennisfan1972
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:58 PM
well explain why hingis owns seles? im sure seles wasnt "off" everytime they met

Helen Lawson
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:02 PM
Power players do a heck of a lot more than hit the hell out of the ball and just try to get the ball in. If that was all it took, there are women who hit as hard as Venus and Serena that are not even in the Top 50 or even Top 100. On the other hand, I believe if Martina Hingis had the body of a Venus, Serena, or even a Jennifer or Linsday, she would never lose a match. "Small" girls are at a big disadvantage. Think of all those times when Martina and Lindsay would play. It was always in the hands of Lindsay. If her serve was off, Martina won. If not, Martina did not have a prayer no matter what she did. Lindsay is no dope and Martina is no weakling but size does seem to matter a lot more now which is unfortunate for the smaller though talented women. We have seen debates like this before in the men's side with respect to serve. Pete would not be the champion he is today without that big serve. Many men have better serves than he does who have never won big titles either. It is a hard issue.

sartrista7
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by deftman
You have got to be kidding if you say that Lucic or Pierce , or even Jennifer , Monica and Lindsay as powerful as Venus or Serena today.

Mirjana Lucic possesses the most power of *any* woman I have evr seen play tennis. Way more than Venus or Serena. The Williams sisters are certainly not the most powerful... off-hand I'd put Lucic, Pierce and possibly Elena Bovina ahead of them. Power is an incredibly important component of their game, of course, but I'd say it's the fact that they're world class at everything - power AND tactics AND accuracy AND, vitally, speed - which makes them 'unbeatable' (which is again a myth).

deftman
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:02 PM
Now I am not saying that Venus or Serena are unbeatable .
But frankly , if you saw Serena's match against Patty , Serena LOST that match.
The same goes against the Kim-Serena match.
Kim insisted that she didnt choke the match , and it was true!
Serena just stopped making errors , and that was all she needed to do.
Essentially , the Williams are playing , it is upto them to lose it or win it.
When Venus and Serena are hitting powerfully and not making errors , there is nothing , nothing and pretty much nothing at all that the opponent can do.
Now Pierce , who also hits the balls powerfully(though not as much as Serena ) , can also be a part of this paradigm , IF she reduces her errors.

frenchvee
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:03 PM
deftman come on

lindsay overpowered venus last year, go ahead and watch the tapes, the reason that venus beats her is that she has superior court coverage than lindsay

this shaping up as one of the dumbest thread that i have ever seen because the poster truly believes is idea. You really make no sense.

Why are you singles out venus and serena??

tennisfan1972
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:03 PM
Explain to me why both serena and Venus made the roland garros final. Isnt clay supposed to blunt the power and make u rely on smarts and strategy? or are they so strong that they can hit through the slowness of the court while nobody else can?

Cybelle Darkholme
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:03 PM
there is no hope for you. There is no point in further debate because you refuse to acknowledge valid points. Also maybe you haven't seen mary, lucic, lindsay or monica play lately because they hit the ball just as hard as venus or serena on the ground strokes. Tulyganova serves just as fast.

Everyone on this board knows that tennis is more than power. Power will not win you matches. Just ask mirjana lucic. Of course you won't do that will you? No, you'll just keep looking for any reason to find out why venus and serena are winning.

also 1999 was not 1997 and venus lost that match to martina. the power was never a problem for martina because venus and serena did not have the SKILL to execute their high stakes game. SKILL is what wins them matches. Not power.


LoL I love it when he says they win when they dont make errors! I guess its so easy to not make errors! IF IT WAS SO EASY TO NOT MAKE ERRORS THEN EVERYONE WOULD BE DOING IT!

Helen Lawson
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:05 PM
Clay makes power less effective. It does not make it ineffective.

tennisfan1972
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:07 PM
DEFTMAN WRITES : "Essentially , the Williams are playing , it is upto them to lose it or win it.
When Venus and Serena are hitting powerfully and not making errors , there is nothing , nothing and pretty much nothing at all that the opponent can do."


SO U ADMIT ITS NOT ABOUT JUST POWER, BUT THEIR SHOT CONSISTENCY?

deftman
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:11 PM
well explain why hingis owns seles? im sure seles wasnt "off" everytime they met

Firstly Seles , isnt clearly as powerful (aka doest make the ball move as fast) as the Williams , and allows Hingis to THINK. Hingis can REACH out to the balls and place them , against Seles , while against the Williams , she invariably cannot even touch the balls. Seles essentially cannot FINISH off her shots against Hingis(she isnt as powerful) , and seriously she does make ERRORS, many more than Venus and Serena do.

Even with Venus and Serena , it's not about hitting POWERFULLY. It's about hitting powerfully , AND getting the ball on the other side of the net. Seles does not consistently do so.

tennisfan1972
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:11 PM
Well damn how much slower do these girls need the surface to be so that venus and serena dont win? if the surface is slower for the other girls its also slower for venus and serena who are much faster and much better shot makers. why do some people think venus and serena wont benefit from the slwo surfaces, in fact i think it helps them more since they can set up for their winners more successfully. their games are not about rallies, they are shotmakers. they are about hitting winners. they practice hitting winners. not having 30 stroke rallies, their whole mission in the match is to find the quickest way to end the piont by aggression not by being passive.

tennisfan1972
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:17 PM
So deftman you are saying Serena and Venus are more powerful than davenport and Seles, but that seles is less powerful than lindsay?

ROTFLMAO

Where exactly would u place daniela, Amelie, Steffi, Jennifer, and KIm and justine in this power hierarchy?

deftman
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:19 PM
deftman come on

lindsay overpowered venus last year, go ahead and watch the tapes, the reason that venus beats her is that she has superior court coverage than lindsay

this shaping up as one of the dumbest thread that i have ever seen because the poster truly believes is idea. You really make no sense.

Why are you singles out venus and serena??

I repeat I have no intention of BASHING Venus and Serena , but just to raise light on the issue of the UNFAIRNESS that the smaller players face.

Guys , Power is obviously not everything in tennis , BUT when you use power , it becomes VERY tough to apply stratergy and tactics. Or else , Hingis and Juju would have found a way to beat the power-babes on a long term basis. But that CANNOT be done so.
In an interview last year ,Melanie agreed that Hingis can never reach the same height she did , as she had pretty much no answers to the power-bandwagon. At the root of stratergy is THINKING , and the power players didnt give her time to think.

Now I am not against having Venus and Serena ALONE is a separate category .Perhaps other big players can also join them there? But small players will be at a clear LONG TERM disadvantage , as they will never be given time to THINK and APPLY their stratergies on court by bigger players!

CanIGetAWhat
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by deftman
You have got to be kidding if you say that Lucic or Pierce , or even Jennifer , Monica and Lindsay as powerful as Venus or Serena today.

Mirjana and Mary are two of the most powerful players on the tour. Mary can literally blast anyone off the court (if she's on that day) and in the Venus/Mirjana match last year at the US Open, if you were watching the match, Mirjana was pushing Venus behind the baseline with her groundstrokes.

What do you have against Venus and Serena? There're a few other players who are more powerful than both of them, yet you continue to single them out. You think the Williams sisters are the two most powerful in the game? :rolleyes:

Deftman, you're too biased to think rationally. :rolleyes:

CoryAnnAvants#1
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:21 PM
Power does not solely win you matches. It's simply this. Whoever makes fewer unforced errors wins. This applies in today's final right down to the high school level. How did Amanda Coetzer reach 3 in the world? She made fewer errors and knocked every ball back, driving her opponents absolutely crazy. That's another thing. Tennis is very mental too. Part of the reason Hingis was going downhill was because when she started losing, she started trying power shot battles. You need to have confidence in your game and not revert to something else because of the score. Venus and Serena are not 1 and 2 because of their power. They hit a ton of errors AND make few unforced errors. Look at Serena's match against Shaughnessy. How the hell is anyone going to beat you when you hit 22 winners and 9 errors? It HELPS to have power, that's a given. But you can be successful on other things as well. Look at Hewitt.

deftman
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:26 PM
I have referred to SMALL players , and not necessarily Lindsay and Seles.
Yes , Lindsay and Seles with better court coverage , and better consistency , can prove to be a threat to the Williams.
But smaller players ,below 5'6" even with the BEST of tactics ,court coverage and shot range , cannot be a threat to the Big Babes , because they will not be given an opportunity to REACH the ball in the first place itself (now they could do this SOMETIMES ,if the big babes are rusty, but I am talking on a LONG TERM basis) . They are suffering from something that is BEYOND their control , that they were BORN with , and can do nothing about.
That is why I feel there should be a separate category for women , who cannot challenge the bigger players , due to inherent physical traits..

Cybelle Darkholme
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:26 PM
Guys his problem is that he doesnt understand the game of tennis. He refuses to acknowledge the other aspects that have been repeatedly pointed out to him. Obviously he doesn't have the maturity to realize his position has been effectively underminded not only by other posters but also by himself. I can literally count the number of contradictions he has in is own posts.

I suggest you go and play tennis with martina hingis and see if you win.

LoL why isnt that you hear the actual players crying for what you want? I find it highly ironic that the players who are at a "inherent physical disadvantage" are not calling for a seperate league.

Also whats the measuring stick? you players over 5'10 have to go, anyone over 135 have to go? You're thinking is sadly on a elementary level. Tennis is more complex than height, weight, and power. If you still can't see that then its truly sad.

Satrista had an excellent post but you refused to even address anything she wrote. Maybe because you have no answers?

tennisfan1972
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:26 PM
If some players have a hard time thinking between shots then thast just too bad. martina robs opponents of time by taking the ball early and on the rise. Is that fair of her to do such a thing to these poor dumb athletes who cant think fast? power is a strategy just as any other tennis strategy. they accomplish the same thing just in different ways. and if u are really good, u will combine power and taking the ball early a la Venus williams' backhand or Lindsay's forehand.
Martina was very successful at countering the powere , just see her victory over serena at AUS open 2001 in the quarters, she had serena looking so clumsy for most of the match, serena didnt know what was going on for a set and half. she moved serena all over the court made her run miles. it can be done

CanIGetAWhat
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by deftman
I have referred to SMALL players , and not necessarily Lindsay and Seles.
Yes , Lindsay and Seles with better court coverage , and better consistency , can prove to be a threat to the Williams.

Ah, now you're finally admitting it's not just all about power. Well, that strikes out your theory of "power is the only factor to winning". Remember, tennis is mostly mental. You have to believe you can win.

deftman
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:34 PM
You dare not call me biased Danny , because I am not.
My post wasnt directed ONLY towards to Williams , but yes I did use them as an example , because they could convery my message.

What Venus , and Serena are doing is 100% legal and justifiable , and I have nothing against it.
However , what is not justified , that players in a completely different physical level have to play them.
I have NO objection to the styles of Venus and Serena , BUT I do have objections to the organisation of the tournament , which makes much smaller players play them. These are two different STYLES of playing , and SHOULD NOT clash!

deftman
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:36 PM
If power is a STRATERGY , then why do they have weight divisions in wrestling??

usatennis1
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:36 PM
deftman you are so funny... ;) ;) ;)

I am sure people felt the same way when Maritina N. started winning. She changed the face and body of tennis, turn the history page. The Williams are changing the face and body of tennis, turn the history page. :worship: :worship: :worship:

Stop making excuses. Chris Evert never did you should not either.

tennisfan1972
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:38 PM
DEFTMAN, exactly when did u come up with this "objection"? in 97 when hingis was kicking everybody's azz? or in 98? or 99?.......

WHY is height and weight all of a sudden an issue?
why hasnt pam shriver won a grand slam by now she is taller than venus?no

CoryAnnAvants#1
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:39 PM
First off, weight divisions will NEVER happen. The only sports they have those in are boxing and wrestling, and that's because a 30 pound advantage can have you going home in a body bag. Second, I don't want weight divisions because the contrast in styles are what make tennis FUN TO WATCH. Can you imagine watching baseline bashes every day or slice and dice rallies every day? BORING! That's what makes Agassi/Rafter, Navrat/Evert, Venus/Hingis, Graf/Vicario so much fun to watch. The power player didn't win every time either.

tennisfan1972
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:41 PM
Because wrestling is not tennis. Smaller players can hit the ball hard, they just choose not to. See justine henin at 5'7 hitting the shyt out of the ball, or iroda tulyoganova hitting serves harder than venus, serena, lindsay

deftman
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:42 PM
Yes I agree. The same questions were raised during the time of Martina N , and I am doing the same , because this aspect intruiges me.
I believe Power is not a STRATERGY but a TRAIT.
Some people are gifted in the sense , they CAN develop power. Seles ,Lindsay etc. are such players , and they could be competing with the Williams.
But some players are smaller , and they CANNOT develop power. Now when two people from different classes meet , it's so unfair! The smaller girl would naturally get slammed , as she DOES not have the opportunity to use her statergy and tactics in the first place , because of the power of her opponent!
She is losing because of the STRUCTURE of her body!

deftman
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:45 PM
Seriously , Hingis can never generate the same power as the Williams , even is she develops muscles. If she jumps on the power bandwagon , she will get INJURED.

BK4ever
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:50 PM
He's hopeless and I think it all has to do with the fact that he does not play tennis. (he couldnt possibly, and say such unfounded things)

Height and weight does not give you power, its TECHNIQUE (see Juju) There are many tall players that don't hit the ball hard. You have so many contradictions in your post, that I'm not even sure you know what your argument is anymore.

Learn to play tennis and then come back and join this conversation. I beat lots of people who are bigger and hit harder than me all the time. I beat them, because I outsmart them!

tennisfan1972
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:51 PM
Deftman are u a doctor or physicist?
why is it that justine can generate power, Iroda can generate power but Hingis cant? what is it about their body that makes Hingis unable to hit with power? Obviously it isnt the height since shorter girls hit harder than she does. so what is it?

Helen Lawson
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:53 PM
For those who like the contrast in style, how much longer will there be contrasts in style? Realistically will women the size of Justine and Martina get into tennis anymore, 5, 10 years down the line. Usually those with the talent to be at the top do not go into tennis with the thought to peak at No. 5 with the occassional win over Nos. 1-4, or have their bodies screwed up by the age of 22.

tennisfan1972
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:55 PM
I am only 5'10 but i beat alot of players who hit much harder than me as wll. I dont serve nearly as hard either. I just stay in great physical shape so i can chase down all of their shots and when they hit one i can deal with i go for my shot. and i can generate my share or power as well when i am on offense. i use their power to my advantage. it doesnt mean i have to hit hard. if the ball is coming at me hard it takes very little effort to get the ball back with pace. only time i feel like i have to swing hard is if i get a ball with no pace. in that situation i do a full take back to generate more racquet head speed. which is more technical than physical in my opinion.

BK4ever
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:58 PM
To make it even better, Juju, who hits the hell out of the ball is even shorter than Martina at 5'5 (barely).

Martina's problem is not that she can't handle the power (she has beaten many "supposed" power players), her problem is that she is lazy and doesnt want to work on her game. Everyone else is improving and she has stayed the same.

As I see it, Henin's problem is that her shots are too loopy so, hard penetrating shots rob her of time, especially on surfaces other than clay where she hugs the baseline. If she shortened her backswing on her forehand, she will be right up there with the other elite players. On clay, its not a major factor because she plays beyond the baseline and therefore has the time for her windup. (see Berlin win over Serena...an alleged big hitting babe).

deftman
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:58 PM
Well I really wouldnt call Justine and Iroda power players . They are able to generate a lot of pace , but NOT as much pace as Serena ( I am just saying Serena , because I cannot say Lindsay in this case ok?). They can NEVER become as powerful as Serena, and hence never generate as much pace on their balls , and hence will never beat Serena on a regular basis.
Seriously , if you have a frail girl of real short height , who is extremely talented , you can never expect her to beat Serena or Lindsay on a regular basis , because their powerful shots wont allow her to excercise her talent

BK4ever
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:00 PM
Helen...are you blaming power tennis for Martina's injuries? Just asking.

BK4ever
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by deftman
Well I really wouldnt call Justine and Iroda power players . They are able to generate a lot of pace , but NOT as much pace as Serena ( I am just saying Serena , because I cannot say Lindsay in this case ok?). They can NEVER become as powerful as Serena, and hence never generate as much pace on their balls , and hence will never beat Serena on a regular basis.
Seriously , if you have a frail girl of real short height , who is extremely talented , you can never expect her to beat Serena or Lindsay on a regular basis , because their powerful shots wont allow her to excercise her talent

I give up and so should we all. Its a useless argument. One just does not get it. Sometimes we have to accept the facts and move on.

Because I'll be damned ...if Iroda doesnt hit the ball as hard as Serena...then I must really be off my rocker today :rolleyes:

The brain cells have all died...they have all been driven into submission by some power hitting :mad: :D

deftman
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:04 PM
Martina's problem is not that she can't handle the power (she has beaten many "supposed" power players), her problem is that she is lazy and doesnt want to work on her game. Everyone else is improving and she has stayed the same.

On the contrary , Martina is one of the hardest workers on the tour. Infact her mother's near-fascist practice schedule has often caused a rift between the two. She is simply short of answers as far as handling power is concerned.
tennisfan , what would you do , when the ball comes with so much pace , that you cannot even REACH the ball?

tennisfan1972
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:06 PM
I think Martinas second serve and first serve are to blame for her downfall. And her lack of fitness. History repeats itself jen and her serve , Seles and her fitness and her serve, Lindsayand her fitness, martina and her serve, henin and her nerves, And Venus adn her serve. U simply cant have an obvious weakness and still expect to dominate. thats the first lesson in tennis, hide yoru weaknesses. If u cant u will lose.... alot..power or no power

Volcana
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:13 PM
I hear the NBA is coming up with a division for players shorter than 5'6" as well. It's unfair for them to have to compete with bigger players. Golf could well do with weight classes too.

tennisfan1972
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:14 PM
LMAO@ BK4EVER
yeah this kat is nuts. lmao@ every power player not really beinga a power player cus they cant hit as hard as serena , WELL FUKKING DUHHHHHHHHH
some power players cant hit that hard cus they are always off balance from well placed shots. Thats why seles cant overpower hingis, hingis never lets her settle down to hit a shot.

tennisfan1972
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:16 PM
I practice on my foot drills and foot speed to hit harder and have better balance and i also rely on my anticipation and my knowledge of physics, vectors, and dynamics of motion.

deftman
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:18 PM
Put it this way , you are unsure which side your opponent is going to serve. You wait for it come your way , and play by instinct. And then a blaster comes your way , and you barely have the time to touch the racquet to the ball. The ball barely falls into the opponent court , and the opponent promptly reaches out to the short ball and slams it with all might and scores a winner. This is the significance of power. You could not do anything because of your opponent's power.No stratergy or tactic could be applied. Similarly Kim couldnt do anything once Serena stopped making errors , even though she was up 5-1. She simply couldnt reach out to Serena's powerful groundstrokes that were travelling very fast.

And a player like Hingis could never generate as much power a the player mentioned above due to her body structure.Anyways I have to leave now , but even if Martina's Second Serve improved , she could only keep up with the Kim-Justine level and not the Venus-Serena level.

Helen Lawson
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:20 PM
I am not placing blame on the injuries but it is natural that some smaller players' bodies will not hold up to playing people much larger and stronger over the long haul so it will create problems.

Helen Lawson
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:23 PM
Martina could have improved her lot and for whatever reason did not. However no matter how much she improved things, she would never be No.1 again just as even if Justine improves in the areas referenced, she will never be No. 1 either. At least the point I am taking from this is, it is due solely to their size, which I guess deftman is saying is not fair or merits attention. Though sports in general are "not fair" it is hard to see two "small" girls struggle against two big ones, there is a sense of unfairness to it.

tennisfan1972
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:25 PM
What has the oponent 's size have to do with whether her body holds up? they are not coming into physical contact. I think if martina were playing an expereinced justine or iroda or whoever the same thing would have occured. her problem aws having to chase all them damn balls n matter who was hitting them.

fammmmedspin
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:27 PM
Reading the thread it seems the new division will have one member - Serena? Like putting Tyson in his own ring? Watching the tennis I thought that the tour was actually learning how to contain her better - the physical problem was that they couldn't convert that into winning. It wasn't power it was a problem of doing what they needed to do for long enough.
Mentally it is now more difficult to induce Serena's "wild thing" and Serena seems to have developed the champions instinct to avoid defeat which suggests more problems for the rest of the tour. I still think you beat Serena in the head not in her game though - more so as several players were very succesful against her when they managed to make her play a more conventional game. Hopefully lots of players will be watching the tapes of Patty, Justine, Kim, and Maidmoiselle Loit not to mention those of the girls who are also finding similar opportunities in Venus's game.

Helen Lawson
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:28 PM
I am referencing returning tremendously fast/hard serves and shots that can wear on the body that "small" girls probably could not hit to the player.

tennisfan1972
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:33 PM
Size only matters if you are good. If you suck, then nobody cares about any "unfair " advantage.
I think we need about 4 or 5divisions.
One for blonds with huge endorsement contracts and no titles no matter how many tournaments they all enter no one ever seems to win the title, so it turns out to be an infinitely long on going tournament that nobody ever wins.
one for black girls who are "naturally gifted" and better "athletes",
one for short girls with no power and lots of finesse,
one for short girls with power with lack of fitness
and one for big girls with no experience but huge shots.
ok that settles everything

CAN you all think of any other divisions we might need in the WTA?

CanIGetAWhat
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by deftman
Put it this way , you are unsure which side your opponent is going to serve. You wait for it come your way , and play by instinct. And then a blaster comes your way , and you barely have the time to touch the racquet to the ball. The ball barely falls into the opponent court , and the opponent promptly reaches out to the short ball and slams it with all might and scores a winner. This is the significance of power.

No, this is called placement and smart serving. Serena placed her serves so well within the box at the 2001 US Open, Martina was "unsure which side her opponent was going to serve".

Originally posted by deftman
Similarly Kim couldnt do anything once Serena stopped making errors , even though she was up 5-1. She simply couldnt reach out to Serena's powerful groundstrokes that were travelling very fast.

Kim, at that point, began to play tentatively and stopped going for her shots (thus her shots landed so short in the court, just barely beyond the service line) and possibly hoping Serena would miss and make more errors but she didn't. IMO, in this match, Serena didn't even generate that much pace/power as she normally does. Mary and the rest of the commentators even stated this.

Originally posted by deftman
And a player like Hingis could never generate as much power a the player mentioned above due to her body structure.Anyways I have to leave now , but even if Martina's Second Serve improved , she could only keep up with the Kim-Justine level and not the Venus-Serena level.

Martina could generate as much power (as the player mentioned above: Kim) if she wanted to. Look at Justine, she's shorter and has a smaller frame than Martina, yet she possess more power than her and can hold her own ground against the "power players" like Venus and Serena. Justine also has better technique on her serve than Martina.

deftman
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:44 PM
Please note that Kim did not STOP going for her shots. Serena STARTED going for her shots , and winning them.She has categorically stated this.
And I repeat , Martina could generate as much pace on her shots as Justine or even more , but never to the level of Williams. If you are a small player , there is a limit to which you can develop your power. But the pace with which you can hit your balls can never match the big players shots. You can then only hope that those big babes are rusty.

BK4ever
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by BK4ever
I give up and so should we all. Its a useless argument. One just does not get it. Sometimes we have to accept the facts and move on.

Because I'll be damned ...if Iroda doesnt hit the ball as hard as Serena...then I must really be off my rocker today :rolleyes:

The brain cells have all died...they have all been driven into submission by some power hitting :mad: :D

we are wasting brain cells here folks...deftman doesnt GET IT :confused:

And its ok...not everyone had good comprehension skills :p

Legends
Jan 24th, 2003, 08:18 PM
Hey guys
if it's any consolation, i've enjoyed the analysis.
:wavey:

well stated
bk4ever
1972
cbh
canIgeta?
Bradshaw

it wasn't all in vain:)

tennischick
Jan 24th, 2003, 08:43 PM
deftman:
i think that the Sisters themselves have already solved the problem of the possible inherent unfairness of their appearing in tennis tournaments -- they mainly show up at the Grand Slams. sure Venus collected a # of lesser titles last year but what was the poor girl to do with that hulking amazon on the other side of the net waiting to blast her scrawny ass off the court?

so really there is no problem. the rest of the smaller players still have a chance to make an honest living by playing the Tier II's and below. for the most part, the Sisters don't bother to go there. players have the choice to look at the commitment lists, decide if they have a chance, and go to that tourny or not. the good news is that there is enuf to go around.

as for the Grand Slams, well that is when the BEST are supposed to appear and they do. i have no problem with that.

finally, there is no way you can introduce weight categories in tennis at this point in time without it causing a nasty racial stink. and you won't be able to do it in 20 years (when the Sisters have retired) either because by then they would have been replaced by a whole slew of young children of diverse races, all raised on a diet of power and accuracy -- and the face of tennis will be changed forever.

all sports evolve. tennis is no different.