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View Full Version : Kim did not choke folks......so don't start the labels


Jakeev
Jan 24th, 2003, 09:39 AM
I am a little disgusted that because Kim could not capitalize on two match points against Serena in the semis, she is being labeled as a choker.

If anything, this should be a total slap in the face to Serena who dug in deep and took those two match points away from Kim.

Clijsters is not a choker. Serena is the better player.

~|Naomi|~
Jan 24th, 2003, 09:56 AM
Jakeev I totally agree Kim is not a choker:mad: and she will show everyone who is labelling her one that in te future.

God if Kim isn't being called overrated here in GM'S then she is a choker:fiery:

katelijn
Jan 24th, 2003, 11:46 AM
I agree kim did not choke serena really lifted her game . Serena is the number 1 . We now know that kim can beat the williams sisters . I don't think that justine can not beat them. She does have the power tennis that the william sisters and kim play. I hope that justine does beat the sisters so that there will be more good powerful players:wavey:

jrm
Jan 24th, 2003, 12:05 PM
why do fans here on the board whenever there are remarks about their players jump and start to defend them like they know them best. It's nice to see you are sticking up for your player but as soon as someone implies something BOOM he gets trashed. i love Kim Clijsters and only she really knows what happened (i expected her not to finish the match on her serve but at least on a break) but i never respond when some board members starts attacking my favourites (it's their opinion who am i to blame them)

katelijn
Jan 24th, 2003, 12:32 PM
we post a reply because the media is going crazy with this choking stuff. If it had been davenport i would have put a reply also. don't like it that when someone wins there are only good things to say but when someone doesn't win they always have some nasty things to say. and it isn't only with tennis I watched the european figure skating championships and the same thing happens there also

The Crow
Jan 24th, 2003, 01:20 PM
I'm sorry, but as number 3 of the world, you "should" win a set in which you have a 5-1 advantage (don't care how much the other player lifts her game). So imo she choked a bit. Does that make her a choker? Of course not, afterall it was the number 1 of the world who lifted her game. So, it'a bit of both (like it almost always is)

Jakeev
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:41 PM
Point is everyone is quick to assume that Kim should have just won that match. If anyone would take a very close look at that second set, you would see that the outcome of that match was definitely in Serena's hands; not Kim's.

Sorry, that's the way I see it. Serena won that match. As for JRM, not really sure what the heck you are talking about. How about elaborating more.

supremeross
Jan 24th, 2003, 08:22 PM
Serena is a better player, but Kim also choked. Two match points and being up 5-1. Looks and sounds like a choke to me. Kim is not the first player to choke and won't be the last. What's the big deal?

sartrista7
Jan 24th, 2003, 08:24 PM
just because Kim choked this once (and she *did* choke) doesn't make her a choker. Can't remember her doing it before.

RAA
Jan 24th, 2003, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by The Crow
I'm sorry, but as number 3 of the world, you "should" win a set in which you have a 5-1 advantage (don't care how much the other player lifts her game). So imo she choked a bit. Does that make her a choker? Of course not, afterall it was the number 1 of the world who lifted her game. So, it'a bit of both (like it almost always is)

yes, perfectly said.

Volcana
Jan 24th, 2003, 08:50 PM
Jakeev - There's choking, and there's being a 'choker'.

If you honestly don't think Kim choked, then Serena is a LOT better than Kim.. Not a little better, a LOT better. Serena raised her game all the way from match point down to wining six straight games. I could see Serena doing that to Anna Kournikova or Laura Granville. Actually, no I can't. I can see her doing it to ME. But to a professional inthe top fifty. No. Not without some help from the opposition.

Kim choked.

Is she a choker?

A choker would have lost the Tour Championships.

Helen Lawson
Jan 24th, 2003, 08:54 PM
Kim choked a little. It was not a Jana Novotna gag-fest however.

Sonja
Jan 24th, 2003, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by sartrista7
just because Kim choked this once (and she *did* choke) doesn't make her a choker. Can't remember her doing it before.

Exactly and I'll bet she's intelligent and determined enough to learn from it. My guess is we won't see that mistake from her again.

selesfan
Jan 24th, 2003, 09:00 PM
Kim did not choke, Serena just jump started her game and stopped making so many errors. Kim has nothing to be ahamed of, she played her heart out.:)

WhatTheDeuce
Jan 24th, 2003, 09:04 PM
one of the matchpoints kim had a simple backhand and netted it...thats a choke....but credit to serena for everything else...

Helen Lawson
Jan 24th, 2003, 09:10 PM
Posters seem to have differing understandings of "choke." If a "choke" is what Jana Novotna did with Graf in 1993, spraying balls, hitting balls way out, falling apart, looking scared, double faulting all over the place, then Kim most certainly did not choke. But losing 6 straight games for someone like Kim is bad. That is akin to eating a bagel. Even from Serena, Kim is a good enough player not to be eating a bagel. She had what 4-5 chances to shut down Serena and win a game. It cannot be that hard to get a game from Serena. Kim could have played better, Serena looked good, but not unbeatable. Like someone else said, Kim will move on and learn from it and will not let the next lead like that go. It happens to all of the good players some of the time.

Robbie.
Jan 24th, 2003, 10:45 PM
I'm with several posters in here in saying that Clijsters most definitely choked in this match - but there is not nearly enough evidence to suggest that she is in fact a "choker".

Jakeev and others, to say that Kim catergorically did not choke is not only totally disrespectful to Kim as a player but raises great doubts about the so called imrpoving depth of the women's game (which I think is rhetoric personally) . What you are saying is that when the #1 player is playing anywhere near her best (not her absolute best mind you) she beats the #3 player in the world (playing her best tennis) 6-0 in a set :eek: Now I may be delussional but I find it easier to accept that Kim choked, rather than accepting that life below #2 is completely over and that the world #3 cannot take a game off the World #1 even when she is not playing her *a grade* ball.

Volcana
Jan 24th, 2003, 11:53 PM
Go back and check out Kim's serve at the finals of RG 2001, and at Wimbledon 2001. She has double-faulted under pressure in that exact manner before.

leslie
Jan 25th, 2003, 01:12 AM
I think losing that match is really going to affect Kim mentally she might have to see a sport therapist. At one point in the last set when Serena was about to serve to Kim the camera focus in on Kim's face and she looked like a deer caught in headlights and at that point I knew she was going to lose. The media and everyone else put a lot of pressure on her. She cannot handle the pressure like the W/S she is not cut out for it. That same media pressure to take down the W/S took out Jen, and Martina also. Now it is going to make the players feel that if they have a chance to beat a W/S they would not want to do it because then, the pressure is going to be on them to beat the sisters all the time and that just is not going to happen. I wish the media would leave these players alone and let them play they sports. Stop looking for players to take down the W/S.

arvada
Jan 25th, 2003, 01:19 AM
YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST!

Kim Clisters will NEVER recover from her choke job against Serena. Her Dad's already talking about an early retirement.

Jakeev says Kim didn't choke! HA HA HA HA HA!

It was one of the TOP FIVE CHOKE JOBS of all time!

o0O0o
Jan 25th, 2003, 01:22 AM
CHOKE.

HUGE CHOKE.

PERIOD.

It's called mental dominance. It's what the #1 players have always had. When you get close to beating the #1 players, you tense up. People used to choke against Hingis. Against Venus. And now Serena. Hell, look at the doubles match!

Clijsters was out-playing Serena. And the match wasn't totally in Serena's hands. They both averaged 70 mph on their groundstrokes. The difference was that once Clijsters got up 5-1 she played her worst tennis of the match. She didn't play one good game. She might not have completely screwed up every point, but she hit zero winners and many errors in the seven game stretch. That's terrible. It's choking. I know many Serena fans want to believe that another player can't win or lose a match against the Williams sisters (because the sisters always control every outcome ever, right?) but Clijsters out-played her and then tensed up.

It's not surprising. It also highlights the mental weaknesses of females in general. Yes I went there. You NEVER see the absurd amount of choking on the men's tour as you do on the women's. In the past year on the WTA I can name at least 10 matches with top-ranked players where one girl choked it away. At least 10, probably more. It's unheard of for a male to choke against the top players...usually if they manage to get up on them in the first place, they close out strong.

arvada
Jan 25th, 2003, 01:34 AM
Maybe my post was a little obnoxious, sorry. After all i do like watching Kim and "usually" she's not a choker. But this was nothing if not choking.

1jackson2001
Jan 25th, 2003, 01:47 AM
Originally posted by Volcana
If you honestly don't think Kim choked, then Serena is a LOT better than Kim.. Not a little better, a LOT better. Serena raised her game all the way from match point down to wining six straight games. I could see Serena doing that to Anna Kournikova or Laura Granville. Actually, no I can't. I can see her doing it to ME. But to a professional inthe top fifty. No. Not without some help from the opposition.

Kim choked.

Is she a choker?

A choker would have lost the Tour Championships.


Actually Volcana...I could see Serena doing it to Kournikova or Laura Granville. Maybe not to Kim, but yes to those two. ;) You see, I'm sure u remember last year's Pilot Pen tourney. Venus was down 3-5 to Lindsay in first set. Then Venus raised her game and went from 3-5 down to winning 10 straight games! She bagelled Lindsay en route. And Lindsay didn't start to play badly. Venus just really raised her game...way up. :)


Originally posted by leslie
At one point in the last set when Serena was about to serve to Kim the camera focus in on Kim's face and she looked like a deer caught in headlights and at that point I knew she was going to lose.

lol I know what camera shot u are referring to. Her face was shaking....she was trembling. :sad: You could tell she was really nervous. :o

o0O0o
Jan 25th, 2003, 01:48 AM
All of 2002 and this Aussie Open tournament:

Hingis def. Clijsters 7-5 4-6 6-2

Clijsters up 5-3. Hingis then up 7-5 4-0. Clijsters wins 6 in a row for 5-7 6-4. Hingis wins 5 in a row. Serves for match. Loses two games. Closes it our 6-2 in the third.

Hingis def. Seles 4-6 6-1 6-4

Although she won, Hingis had a 5-1 lead in the third set and completely missed a critical smash for the first time "since I was three".

Capriati def. Hingis 4-6 7-6 6-2

Four match points. Enough about this match has been said.

Myskina def. Hingis 6-7 6-4 6-0.

Hingis had points for 5-1 in the second and then Myskina won 11 straight games.

Serena def. Capriati 7-5 7-6 (Miami?)

7 set points for Capriati, and Serena was visibly tiring in the second set.

Serena def. Capriati 7-5 in the third (Rome?)

Capriati up a break in the third.

Serena def. Capriati 2-6 6-4 6-4

Capriati had a point for 6-2 5-4 and led a break in the third.

Mauresmo def. Capriati 4-6 7-5 6-4 US Open

Capriati served for the match.

Clijsters def. Mauresmo 7-5 in the third (indoors sometime).

Mauresmo had two matchpoints and led 5-2 in the third.

Venus Williams def. Justine Henin 2-6 7-5 7-6.

Henin led 4-0 in the second. Served for the match twice. Another legendary choke.

Hantuchova def. Dementieva (can't remember score)

Elena had four match points.

Schnyder def. Davenport.
Rubin def. Davenport.
Maleeva def. Davenport.
Henin def. Davenport.
Seles def. Davenport.
Serena def. Davenport.
Venus def. Davenport.

All since Lindsay's return, matches where she has had a serious lead.

Serena def. Clijsters two days ago.
Serena def. Loit 1st round.

That's all of the top of my head. And there are a lot of matches that may be considered chokes that I didn't mention because people would complain. But above this type is a list of matches on the WTA involving top-10 players where there has been some serious choking.

I'm counting 20. And I might just add more as they come along to me.

aussiefan83
Jan 25th, 2003, 01:55 AM
KIM DID CHOKE!!! there is no doubt about that.

is she therefore a choker- i doubt it.

as someone else mentioned- for the world number 3 not to be able to close out a set when up 5-1 means that something serious has gone wrong. Kim can not be that far behind serena that all serena has to do is lift her game a fraction and be able to win 6 straight games.

i like clijsters but that doesnt mean i cant see the obvious- SHE CHOKED!.

Cybelle Darkholme
Jan 25th, 2003, 02:04 AM
I rarely watch mens tennis so I cannot comment on how many matches are choked away.

However, let it be known that you cannot choke a match away unless you were in a position to win it.

If you lose your one break that does not mean you choked the match if you lose. I mean how many freaking breaks of serve are there in women's tennis! TONS.

Yet if you have 5 - 1 and lose well thats bad and yes its a choke because realistically you should be able to hold if not break.

Yet if you dont have the mental toughness to close out a match, then you dont deserve to win because having that ability is the mark of champion. Champions don't choke and lose, they find a way to win. Also you are the better player if you are mentally tough enough to close out a match.

Jana novotna outplayed steffi but she was not the better player because she could not close it out.

I would also like to point out that serena made 5 ue after being down 1 - 5. only FIVE.

So yes kim choked but serena improved her playing. It was both otherwise serena would have given the match away with ue.

Also when someone is outplaying someone else they are hitting more winners than the other person and keeping their errors low. Kim was hitting some winners but her strategy was to keep the ball in play and let serena miss. it worked for awhile but when faced with the end of her run serena stepped it up and kim faltered.

Jakeev
Jan 25th, 2003, 07:49 AM
Serena is the number player in the world......no she is not invincible.......but Serena dictates the outcome of her matches folks.

If you cannot see that then you are not only in serious denial, but I am beginning to see what Williams fans are fighting about all the time.

Talking about not friggen respect.

Kim will be a greater threat to the sisters one day. SHe will probably even go toe to toe with them without relying on the sisters to make the mistakes.

Until then, Kim has a lot of work to do and it was proven her loss.

harloo
Jan 25th, 2003, 08:03 AM
I think Kim was letting Serena self destruct. IMO, Serena could of been in control of the match if her level of play was better. She would hit error after error and Kim kept moving her side to side to get the error. It worked until 5-1, but once Serena sensed that she was going home she took control right away.

I think what happened is that Kim wasn't ready for Serena to get so aggressive at the end. She was conservative and wasn't going for too much, and that hurt her. IMO she couldn't change her game to be more aggressive and Serena's sudden surge startled her. And when she served 2 double faults at 5-4 I knew Serena's force play had pressured her somewhat.

IMO, Serena showed why she is a champion but Kim didn't take her opportunties to serve it out. But how can you beat 5 errors in 6 games, that's almost impossible to beat.

spudrsca
Jan 25th, 2003, 11:31 AM
Well, if Serena has managed to do so many winners in the last game is because Kim played shorter and slower.
If Kim has continued to play deep, Serena could in no way do so many winners like she did. She played short and Serena could advance in the court. It was the key of the match. When Kim played deep, she was in control.
So for me Kim choked.

~RedRose~
Jan 25th, 2003, 12:05 PM
I wouldnt say she is a choker ... but she did choke ... even though Serena played alot better ... Kim (as No.3) shouldve been able to win at least 1 game ... it proves that if Serena had played her best from the start, Kim wouldnt have had any chance.

Experimentee
Jan 25th, 2003, 02:21 PM
I dont think it was a choke, she was just nervous and Serena raised her level. Most players get a little nervous when they're about to close out a match, but Serena was good enough to expliot it. We saw Kim get nervous against Myskina the other day, but she managed to close that out.

Its the most ridiculous statement that more women choke than men, to whoever said that. I would say more men choke than women actually. In the current game, I could name Grosjean, Ferrero, Federer, Henman, Haas etc as the most serious chokers. In general the top women hold themselves together mentally a lot better than the men. I would call it more of a choke to lose matches from two sets to love up than from just 5-2 in the 3rd or whatever. Also you hardly ever see anyone in the womens game lose a set from 5-0 but i see it in the mens game.

Experimentee
Jan 25th, 2003, 02:24 PM
If you look at the stats, Kim only did 14 winners in the whole match. It wasnt like she was hitting Serena off the court. She was playing to let Serena self destruct right from the start. Once Serena lifted her level, she could make the winners and win the match from Kim.