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selesrules
Jan 22nd, 2003, 10:36 PM
Personally I think it's unfair for Henin that Clijsters is getting all the attention. Henin has had a very similar career and just because Clijsters happened to win in LA all of a sudden it doesn't mean that she's all of a sudden way above Henin. Personally I hope that Henin does better in this AO then Clijsters, and even wins the whole tournament. Everyone is picking "kim to stop dominance of williams", "kim will win", "kim is the real no.1", "kim blah blah", yet you hear nothing about Henin. :rolleyes: She's also beaten the Williams and everyone else (including Seles which Clijsters hasn't yet), and she has had great results too, in fact not long ago Clijsters was struggling to win matches (do you remember?) but Henin was consistant. Henin, prove them all wrong and win the AO!

Lisbeth
Jan 22nd, 2003, 10:43 PM
Not by me. I think she's always in with a good chance any time she plays.

Sonja
Jan 22nd, 2003, 10:45 PM
I think she might be better off with all the pressure and focus on Kim. I think that because Kim has beaten Justine a number of times and has just beaten the World No. 1, the focus is on her. That may just be the advantage Justine needs to sneak into the finals.

CJ07
Jan 22nd, 2003, 10:48 PM
I'm sorry but both will be spanked, Go Team Williams!

2284
Jan 22nd, 2003, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by Sonja
I think she might be better off with all the pressure and focus on Kim. I think that because Kim has beaten Justine a number of times and has just beaten the World No. 1, the focus is on her. That may just be the advantage Justine needs to sneak into the finals.

I totally agree. Justine quite often manages to sneak through the draw un-noticed. Maybe it helps her. Personally I'm just glad that 4 of my favorite players are in the semi-finals of the Australian Open

Car Key Boi
Jan 22nd, 2003, 10:50 PM
Henin who?

- Car Key Boi :confused:

Berlin_Calling
Jan 22nd, 2003, 10:51 PM
a little out of place there u think mmcdonald? :rolleyes:

Anyway, there is more focus on Kim because she is someone that has the power. Everyone thinks that Justine will suffer from the power and lose to the power players but Justine likes the ball coming back at her fast :)

2284
Jan 22nd, 2003, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by M_pIeRcE14
a little out of place there u think mmcdonald? :rolleyes:

Anyway, there is more focus on Kim because she is someone that has the power. Everyone thinks that Justine will suffer from the power and lose to the power players but Justine likes the ball coming back at her fast :)

Justine actually has a surprising amount of power for someone her size

Lynx
Jan 22nd, 2003, 11:22 PM
1) Kim was struggling to win matches "not long ago" because she was suffering from a shoulder-injury that wouldn't go away. I just read an interview with her father where he says that the pain was sometimes so bad she could barely lift her arm.
Yet, with that injury, she succeeded in staying in the top ten. Once the shoulder was ok again, she raced to number 4, beating Justine in the Championships as a matter of fact.

2) Sure Justine has beaten "everybody else"... although only a few days ago she still had to beat Lindsay. She fought for what she was worth... and won. Barely. Kim won a LOT easier from Lindsay not a week before that - the final in Sydney, remember, where she first beat Justine in the semi's in 2 short sets.

3) And that's what it's all about: Kim has beaten Justine time and again, the last 18 months. And every time in 2 - relatively easy - sets. For the moment Kim is by far the better player.

THAT's why the focus is on her and not on Justine. Justine is a marvelous player... but at the moment Kim is closer to Serena than Justine is to Kim.

selesrules
Jan 22nd, 2003, 11:27 PM
Lynx, that's my point. It's based on a 2 or 3 tournament span. They should wait a little longer, I mean Henin could all of a sudden have a better 2 or 3 tournaments then Clijsters and we should all say that she's the new no.1? :rolleyes:

Hazy
Jan 22nd, 2003, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by Lynx
3) And that's what it's all about: Kim has beaten Justine time and again, the last 18 months.

2002 Rome Clay (O) SF Justine HENIN-HARDENNE 5-7 2-6

Blogger Dives
Jan 22nd, 2003, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by mmcdonald
I'm sorry but both will be spanked, Go Team Williams!

Really mature, loser! :rolleyes:


I think Justine sneaking through is quite nice. It takes away the pressure, and we all know she's just as capable as Kim at knocking off a sister. Especially considering she has Venus, the least consistant of the two.

Plus it must not be forgotten, Kim's already cleaned Serena's clock once. Letting it happen twice wouldn't be that far fetched. ;)

Go team Belgium! :worship:

Lynx
Jan 22nd, 2003, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by Hazy
2002 Rome Clay (O) SF Justine HENIN-HARDENNE 5-7 2-6 Ah - I forgot that, thank you Hazy. :)
Shoulder injury time, though.

As for Kim being the new n° 1, that's obviously not true. Why should we all be saying that??? Who is making us? :confused:

Blogger Dives - please let's keep it polite, here.

Josh
Jan 22nd, 2003, 11:39 PM
Shoulder injury time? Kim had just won Hamburg and had beaten Sandrine Testud in the quarters in a great match. The truth is they both played like crap that day but it was Justine who was a bit more consistent.

Lynx
Jan 22nd, 2003, 11:44 PM
Yes, she had just won Hamburg. While her soulder was injured. That's why she was so inconsistent: she'd push, win some matches, a tournament even... and then she'd have to pay for that.

Like in Rome.

Berlin_Calling
Jan 22nd, 2003, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by Josh
Shoulder injury time? Kim had just won Hamburg and had beaten Sandrine Testud in the quarters in a great match. The truth is they both played like crap that day but it was Justine who was a bit more consistent.

Good call ;)

But anyway Lynx, I dont think this was the shoulder problem time, that was more of the beginning of last year. This is the time where Kim got a little inconsistent, from the clay court season to the US Open. But I dont think it wa an injury..

selesrules
Jan 22nd, 2003, 11:51 PM
The fact remains: Clijsters has never been able to beat Henin 3 times in a row. So why do you guys think that she could do it here in the AO? ;) Henin all the way baby!

Josh
Jan 22nd, 2003, 11:52 PM
Then she shouldn't have played that match.

bis2806
Jan 22nd, 2003, 11:52 PM
henin is ignored coz she freaking faked her injuries against lindsay!!! TWICE!!! first when lindsay was leading 4-1 and then at 7 all with lindsay leading 15-0

Josh
Jan 22nd, 2003, 11:54 PM
Oh well...what was it again that people said when Justine accused Lindsay of exaggerating her injury? Oh yeah....she's a professional so she shouldn't have let that distract her. Same applies for Lindsay I guess....

Berlin_Calling
Jan 22nd, 2003, 11:57 PM
when I saw bis2806 had posted in here, I knew it meant trouble and I was right :rolleyes: hmmm, I wonder why Justine pulled out of the doubles tournament?? O maybe she werent convincing people like bis and faking the injury meant more to her than winning in doubles after getting this far.
Lindsay has gotten over the Zurich incident and didnt accuse Justine of faking so who are u to judge? Im sure Lindsay is happy to fans like u....not :rolleyes:.

Lynx
Jan 22nd, 2003, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by M_pIeRcE14
Good call ;)

But anyway Lynx, I dont think this was the shoulder problem time, that was more of the beginning of last year. This is the time where Kim got a little inconsistent, from the clay court season to the US Open. But I dont think it wa an injury.. From an interview with Lei Clijsters in Humo (a Belgian magazine):

"Last year, after Carl Maes had left and we still hadn't found a new coach.../..."

"... She was full of doubts, that whole period of time. Because of her shoulder injury she had not been able to really practice the last half year."

Maes left immediately after RG. Shoulder injury time. ;)

Lynx
Jan 23rd, 2003, 12:01 AM
Josh - you know why she kept playing.
She may have pushed too hard - that's what top-sporters tend to do. But if she should have stopped playing altogether, her level would have dropped much further.
Now, she succeeded in staying well in the top ten. :)

Brave girl, I say! :)

Lynx
Jan 23rd, 2003, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by selesrules
The fact remains: Clijsters has never been able to beat Henin 3 times in a row. So why do you guys think that she could do it here in the AO? ;) Henin all the way baby! That's only true if you don't count the exhibition matches.
Now maybe we should not count them. But I'm convinced of one thing: both times (2001, 2002) both girls tried to win.
Both times Justine lost in 2 sets.

fleemke³
Jan 23rd, 2003, 12:19 AM
Ow well it's a hell if you live in Belgium :rolleyes: ... (Flandres) It's always Kim ... She is loved by the press, she reall know what to say to a journalist, and that's what's making her so popular for example in all the contests (sportwoman of the year, ...) In the program'Sportweekend' on sunday they even ignored Justine's great win over Davenport earlier that they ... They were talking about Kim Clijsters her youth :rolleyes: It was very funny to see Kim as a kid but so unfair to Jusitne ... She was on frontpage all over the world ....

Kim won the last meetings but they were all on hard courts ... if fortnune would ive us more matches on gravel or grass, this score would be diffrent.

I don't have any probs with Kim but I hate it that Justine always 'the number 2' even if she's playing better ....
And yeah maybe it isn't that bad for her that the pressure is on Kim. Justine played a hell of a tournament ALREADY ;), it only can get even more better

Go girl to me you're the number one ;)

About the exihibitionthings ... well Kim's a player who can play good for fun .. Justine has to focus more on her game seriously. I was in Charleroi last year and if you saw Justine crying (it were tears of joy :D) you knew that she wasn't able to win. Kim can switch a lot easier from fun to serious things on court .. Justine isn't and that why those exhibitions are so 'boring'

ktwtennis
Jan 23rd, 2003, 12:22 AM
Bottom line: Clijsters has been beating Henin handily the last few times they've played and Clijsters right now is playing better tennis to beat the Williams.

selesrules
Jan 23rd, 2003, 12:22 AM
we shall see in the next few hours.... Prediction: AO final between Henin & Serena.

Josh
Jan 23rd, 2003, 12:24 AM
Well I would say that Justine's chances of beating Venus are bigger (still small though) than Kim's chances of beating Serena.

arn
Jan 23rd, 2003, 12:29 AM
I agree with Selesrules. :)

Lynx
Jan 23rd, 2003, 12:37 AM
I don't think so, Josh. I fear both girls will lose, but I don't think Justine stands a better chance against Venus.

Yep, Selesrules, we shall see. But if your prediction is correct, then Serena WILL win the final - that's my prediction.

ktwtennis, you've got it right: that indeed is the bottom line, and it is why the "experts" are counting Justine out.

fleemke! I disagree with you. You make Kim a kind of calculating bitch, "because she knows what to say to the press". That is simply not true. Read what Pam Shriver had to say about her... (another thread, somewhere). She IS that spontaneous girl that she seems to be - such ppl DO exist. That's why she's so loved.

As for Justine: I cheer her on because she is Belgian. But I don't like her personality. I'll never forget what she said after the semifinal of RG 2001: "J'ai donné le match." Bah! There she lost my sympathy. What she said about Linds faking that injury is exactly the same kind of thing. She is VERY ambitious... and will disparage others if that ambition is thwarted.

But I'll give you this: she's a MARVELOUS tennisplayer - technically the better of Kim, imo. It's not enough, just yet...

fleemke³
Jan 23rd, 2003, 12:43 AM
Originally posted by Lynx
, and it is why the "experts" are counting Justine out.

fleemke! I disagree with you. You make Kim a kind of calculating bitch, "because she knows what to say to the press". That is simply not true. Read what Pam Shriver had to say about her... (another thread, somewhere). She IS that spontaneous girl that she seems to be - such ppl DO exist. That's why she's so loved.



Lynx watch out here because you're not getting my point! It it was not negatively meant (omg my english stucks here :confused: thx Lynx ;)) My English vocabulary isn't that great to express exactly what I mean! And Justine did give her semi away for a bit and if you're dissapointed you say such things ... what doen't mean the Linds-thing is something to be proud off! Well I personaly had a negative experience with Kim on a signaturesession in Antwerp last year but that doens't effect my feelings to her as a TENINISplayer, well as a person. I just prefer Justine's style more, I don't care if she's a bitch, what she's wearing, .....

Josh
Jan 23rd, 2003, 12:44 AM
The experts are not counting Justine out. In fact on the news today they interviewed some commentators from USA, UK and Australia and they give Justine a better chance to reach the final.

And Justine did choke badly at RG so that was what she was talking about when she said that. And once again, she didn't say Lindsay faked the injury, she said she thought she "exaggerated" it (hence the song and dance comment).

And I agree with fleemke, Kim knows what to say to the press and more exactly, knows how to talk to the press.

lizchris
Jan 23rd, 2003, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by Blogger Dives
Really mature, loser! :rolleyes:


I think Justine sneaking through is quite nice. It takes away the pressure, and we all know she's just as capable as Kim at knocking off a sister. Especially considering she has Venus, the least consistant of the two.

Plus it must not be forgotten, Kim's already cleaned Serena's clock once. Letting it happen twice wouldn't be that far fetched. ;)

Go team Belgium! :worship:


6-3, 7-5 isn't a clock cleaning.

Lynx
Jan 23rd, 2003, 12:57 AM
Ok, fleemster! :)

Well, maybe we should fight in Flemish, some other time. And maybe we don't disagree that much, after all.

(should have been: "it was not negatively meant". :) --- you're welcome :cool: )


Josh, with "experts" I meant Pam... I didn't see all those commentators you mentioned? (I was also refering to selesrules first post.)

Whatever she was talking about at RG 2001, she should have given Kim some credit. (Like Serena should have given Kim credit for the Championships - same thing, really). I don't feel much sympathy for players who diss (sp?) others... even if it is out of disappointment. :(

Kim is a spontaneous person - she's one of those golden children who will always be liked by ALMOST everyone. A girl like her will always be more popular than a girl like Justine.
To dislike her for that reason seems, ermm... unjust? :p

Josh
Jan 23rd, 2003, 01:06 AM
It was on the VTM nieuws :o

And I don't dislike Kim, I just like Justine better because she plays the more beautiful tennis and seems to be the more intruiging and interesting character. :)

Josh
Jan 23rd, 2003, 01:08 AM
Oh and even Kim is sometimes guilty of "dissing" her opponents once in a while. I remember a second round loss against Smashnova in Berlin last year and Kim said in her interview that if this would have been a grand slam she would have tried harder. That wasn't exactly complimentory either, was it? ;)

Lynx
Jan 23rd, 2003, 01:13 AM
Ah - VTM ! :p
I agree about Juju's tennis. If you want to be intruiged by her character though - talk to Pierre-Yves :o :devil:

Bad, bad Kimmie! Saying such things - sheesh! (And I still like her - neh.) :)

fleemke³
Jan 23rd, 2003, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by Lynx
Ah - VTM ! :p


Well I saw it too :o:o and Josh is telling the truth :cool::D

Josh
Jan 23rd, 2003, 01:19 AM
Lynx, you're so biased!

;)

Lynx
Jan 23rd, 2003, 01:24 AM
I believe you, I believe you !! :D
Ok, I'm off. Ten minutes to go ! GO GIRLS !

See you later. :wavey:
Lynx, you're so biased! Who - moi?? :mad:

Yeah I am. Nah, nahnah, nah, nah! :D

Blogger Dives
Jan 23rd, 2003, 02:16 AM
Originally posted by lizchris
6-3, 7-5 isn't a clock cleaning.

You call the mighty Serena losing to anyone in two sets, let alone losing the first one 6-3... Not a clock cleaning? Even I know some Willies fans that will disagree with ya on that one. :rolleyes:

banana
Jan 23rd, 2003, 04:20 AM
i think kim gets more attention b/c she is more charismatic, Justine just seems boring

per4ever
Jan 23rd, 2003, 06:46 AM
people tend to forget that most of the Kim-Juju matches were on hardcourt..and Kim is better on hardcourt. They only met once on grass (Justine won) and twice on gravel (1-1)... so on these surfaces Justine is equal or even better then Kim.

gladysharon
Jan 23rd, 2003, 09:42 AM
I agree too that Justine is often being ignored...one thing she's on the limelight when she's achieved a great tournament game...within 'secs' she's off it...noboday seems to care a lot abt her. More ppl seem to know kim...

I believe that Justin is never boring...she's a very concentrated player...she reads things in her mind more than kim.

To me, I regard Justine as the most greatest player no matter what other people think about her. :)

saki
Jan 23rd, 2003, 11:04 AM
Justine *is* unfairly ignored in my opinion too. Her results with the exception of LA are just as good as Kim's, her head to head with Kim is a little harsh on her if you look at the surfaces they've played on, and her head to head against the rest of the top 10 is as good if not better than Kim's. I also think she's the more interesting personality. Kim's very sweet but almost because she's so open, there's nothing intriguing about her. Justine has reserve and intensity (reminds me a lot of Steffi in some ways) that interest me more.

xnedrabourne
Jan 23rd, 2003, 11:21 AM
well i am a Justine fan, so naturally i don't think Justine is boring. In fact she is the only player i purposely sit down to watch.

Sure Justine may not be as friendly as some other players, she may not be so willing to talk to the press, so giving, but at least she is not a fake. What you see is what you get, i like that, she lets her tennis speak for her. Just being able to see her play is to me priviledge enough.

Just wait, once you see her smile then you'll be hooked. It's a smile that warms your heart and lights up the room.

Lynx
Jan 23rd, 2003, 11:27 AM
It would be interesting to see what kind of personality the fans of Justine have vs the fans of Kim. And vs the fans of other players, too.
Would we reflect the personality of our faves? Or would we be opposites (you know the saying: "opposites attract") ?

Me, I'm not as open and easy-going as Kim, far from! :o


Hey, xnedrabourne - Kim is no fake, either! :fiery: I hope you didn't mean her! :( :)

xnedrabourne
Jan 23rd, 2003, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by Lynx
It would be interesting to see what kind of personality the fans of Justine have vs the fans of Kim. And vs the fans of other players, too.
Would we reflect the personality of our faves? Or would we be opposites (you know the saying: "opposites attract") ?

Me, I'm not as open and easy-going as Kim, far from! :o


Hey, xnedrabourne - Kim is no fake, either! :fiery: I hope you didn't mean her! :( :)

No i don't mean Kim. I like her. Sure i don't like her as much as i like Justine, but Kim is cool. She is a great player and a friendly person. Always ready with a smile.

Well you have raised a very interesting question. Hmmmm i am more friendly then Justine appears to be on the surface (i have no idea what she is really like), but i am still a bit shy and reserved. I am very private. I will have to think about this some more. But most interesting question. I wonder what others think.

But i would lean towards people admiring similar qualities rather than opposites attract. That is if we are talking about their personalities, if you mean purely as a tennis player then opposities attract could be the primary key etc a person with a weaker backhand could admire Justine a great deal because of her wonderful backhand.

gladysharon
Jan 23rd, 2003, 02:42 PM
Hmm...could it be that Kim's more known cos of her relations with World No. 1 Hewitt?!! I think it's part of it too.

The Crow
Jan 23rd, 2003, 03:17 PM
In Belgium, Lleyton is more known (and popular) because of his realtion with Kim ;) And yep, part reason why I'm a Justine fan is probably because she intrigues me much more than Kim.

Nemesis
Jan 23rd, 2003, 04:45 PM
Totally agree that Henin is being overlooked.

Like the AO 2003: Kim and Justine both had a good tournament, both as good. Justine's was a bit more surprising since she had the worst draw you could imagine and hardcourt/rebound ace is her worst surface. Kim was expected to do good with such an easy draw and preparation. Still, people think Kim was much better than Justine just because Kim had her momentum against Serena and JuJu had hers against Lindsay. But people tend to have a short time memory. If Kim had to play after a 3 h 15 min match while having had cramps in her legs in round 4, I bet she also would have lost in two short sets to Serena. But they just don't think about that. JuJu did the best she could and had her best hardcourt GS y-t-d.

Justine has already beaten 3 top ten, ex-grand-slam-winners (Jennifer-Monica-Lindsay) on the slams, while Kim has only beaten JuJu from the top 10 in the slams.

And the main reason why Justine is so "boring" is because she speaks French in normal life. We all know the Francophones have to force a lot to speak English (and Dutch), so JuJu just doesn't speak when she doesn't have to. She only says the things she has to say and doesn't add too much specialtities to her interviews or speeches because she hasn't got the ability to speak those languages fluidly. Another reason why she is so "boring" is because she doesn't give a damn about what people think about her off the court. That is what I call COOL :cool: The bad boy attitude. She wants to lead a normal life without too much press. Kim will have troubles with the press, but she has her bulldog-father to protect her. Kim is the sweetie of everyone and is the perfect daughter-in-law. And we all know sweetie-buns aren't cool. They are just cute ;)

Lynx
Jan 23rd, 2003, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Nemesis
... We all know the Francophones have to force a lot to speak French (and Dutch), so JuJu just doesn't speak when she doesn't have to. She only says the things she has to say and doesn't add too much specialtities to her interviews or speeches because she hasn't got the ability to speak those languages fluidly.

... Kim will have troubles with the press, but she has her bulldog-father to protect her. Kim is the sweetie of everyone and is the perfect daughter-in-law. And we all know swetie-buns aren't cool. Wow - a hate-post towards Kim from a Justine fan. :eek:
"We all know the Francophones have to force a lot to speak French (and Dutch)... " I suppose you mean English and Dutch "... because she hasn't got the ability to speak those languages fluidly." - What, it's an ability now? So Francophones - and Justine - are a little bit retarded, or what?
News for you, God of Revenge: learning another language isn't easy for anyone - except a few really gifted ppl. I'm sick and tired of hearing that excuse: "Oh, I'm French-speaking - you should adjust to me! I don't speak other languages." Bull-major-shit.
And her father - winner of the Golden Shoe in soccer, once a player for the national team - is a bulldog now?? AND Kim isn't cool because she's sweet???
Hate post, indeedy. Crawl back from where you come and HIDE, my friend - because you just pissed me off big time.

The Crow
Jan 23rd, 2003, 05:18 PM
Err Justine's English is not that bad, is it?? :confused:

WtaTour4Ever
Jan 23rd, 2003, 05:20 PM
For sure it is, I mean that is the normal thing for it to be, for sure :-)

Nemesis
Jan 23rd, 2003, 05:30 PM
Lynx - you should check you mythology because Nemesis is a goddess. Blasphemous person!!! ;)

Point me where I wrote I hate Kim, Lynx. I just said Kim is too nice and I don't adore those kind of persons. She's an open book and I want to be fan from someone of who I have to open her book myself. Kim is a nice and sweet person, that is what I wrote. I didn't write I hate her. Being not-cool doesn't equal to being hatefull. Is a cute rabbit cool? No, it's cute but it isn't cool.
And about Lei: a bulldog protects persons and he protects his daughters so much from the press. It was a comparison. I didn't mean he was rude. I actually said he protected Kim from some evil things. But sometimes he's too closed.

Well, suddenly someone from Flanders thinks she/he is as good in languages as the Walloons and the rest of the world. The English, the Germans, the French, the Spannish, the Dutch, Jean Marie Pfaff ;) etc. just have sooooo much problems with foreign languages. But most Flemmish people are quite good in languages. Kim is very good in English because of Lleyton too. She has a lot of players she's befriended with (JuJu, Ai, Anastasia, Lindsay ...) and those all speak different languages. That is a wonderfull thing of Kim. Nothing to hate her.
But why does JuJu come along with Nathalie Dechy and Nathalie Tauziat??? Because they are Francophones. And there are a lot of pics where all the French speaking players sit and have dinner toghether. So this is a fact. French speaking players lay more easily contact with French speaking players. Because they do not have to do much effort. That's their right.
And French speaking players struggle with the English interviews. It' not just JuJu. MoMo has it too. And that makes them speak much business talk and little private life talk.

I totally don't know where you read the hate to Kim in my post ... Saying they were as good as each other now and that JuJu has beaten more important players doesn't equal hating too. I guess you overreacted a bit, but I can forgive you because you had a tough day after the almost-win-Kim-match against Serena ;) JuJu fans are already totally immune to that.

BTW - Yes I meant English. I'm used to writing that the English have problems with French :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

The Crow
Jan 23rd, 2003, 05:31 PM
WTATour4ever, taking into account English is not her mother tongue I meant :p

caseyl45
Jan 23rd, 2003, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by WtaTour4Ever
For sure it is, I mean that is the normal thing for it to be, for sure :-)

You know what? That sounds a lot like her.

Honestly, though, I think that Henin-Hardenne's English is okay, grammatically, but there are times when she puts words in a different order than most English-speaking people do. The thing that I've noticed about her is that she has a really heavy accent, and I think that makes it difficult to understand her sometimes. However, I know people who speak far worse English than she does -- and they've lived in the U.S. their entire lives.
As far as the "for sure" thing is concerned, I know someone who speaks French, and he thinks that when she's thinking about what she wants to say, she thinks the phrase "bien sur," and then when she translates it to English, she just translates that phrase literally. He says in many of the cases where she says "for sure," that maybe "of course," would be more appropriate.
As far as Justine's intelligence is concerned, I've always understood that she was an excellent student before she quit school. Maybe someone else could confirm this. I've also read that she studied Latin in school, and if that's true, then she has to be fairly intelligent, because that's a very hard language to learn.

I do agree with the original point of this thread, though, that she doesn't seem to get the same attention as the other top players. I think that part of that is because, for the most part, Kim Clijsters has been the better player over the course of their professional careers. I think the other part of it has to do with the players around her. She has Clijsters, Venus, and Serena ranked ahead of her, and then Hantuchova and Capriati immediately below her. Personally I don't think this is the case, but the media seems to think of these players as more interesting than she is, and, publically, at least, I think she comes off as kind of shy, maybe even aloof. I get the feeling that Justine's misunderstood in a lot of ways, and that's sad. Based on some of the interviews with people close to her that I've seen, she sounds like a really fun and interesting person.

Nemesis
Jan 23rd, 2003, 06:12 PM
I didn't say JuJu was not intelligent. She can speak English quite well, but not as good as Kim or the Americans of course. I do not know if she studied Latin, but it is possible (and looking to her game on the court, she's smart enough to do that). If the whole tour was organised in French, JuJu would be more comfortable at interviews.

And I also read from interviews with (Frenchspeaking) persons who are close to her that JuJu is funny and nice. So from what we read and what we see we can conclude that JuJu is a bit shy and more fluendly in French. That was my whole point.

And about the "for sure" thing: I do too think she says "bien sur" or "c'est sur" in her head. And "of course" is a bit more difficult to pronounce too. So she's picking sideways ;)

BTW - the Flemmish press said during the AO that she is becoming more spontaneous. She laughs more. She says it's because of her marriage. But I think it's because they speak French with her. And maybe the press-attention for her wedding was also a spontanity-boost for her. But I already liked her before. So she doesn't need to change.

fleemke³
Jan 23rd, 2003, 06:38 PM
totaly agree with Nemesis ;)

Lynx
Jan 23rd, 2003, 06:43 PM
Nemesis.
What - you're not hiding yet? Coudn't find the stone you use to live under? Shooo!

Ps: edit away, deary, me and you know what was there before. Git!

WtaTour4Ever
Jan 23rd, 2003, 07:03 PM
Yeah that was my little impression of Justine ..... I think it is cute.

Nemesis
Jan 23rd, 2003, 09:07 PM
Lynxie: I am an editing-girl. I can't stand faults and uncomplete thoughts. I would never edit away my thoughts so I would be nice. And certainly not for you, Lynx :p ;) I already started editing before you hit the reply button. I'm obsessed ;)

gladysharon
Jan 23rd, 2003, 10:49 PM
I think that Justine has gained more supporters & fans around the world now...after this AO match.

No matter how 'ignored' Justine has, she still have her fans & other big stars like her game of style. That matters. :bounce:

TommyH
Jan 23rd, 2003, 10:58 PM
justine isnt being ignored. she just isnt on kims level and is along way from serena and venus' level. but shes a good player, probably a clear number 4 at the moment.

Fingon
Jan 23rd, 2003, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by bis2806
henin is ignored coz she freaking faked her injuries against lindsay!!! TWICE!!! first when lindsay was leading 4-1 and then at 7 all with lindsay leading 15-0

I guess then to make it more credible she pulled out of the doubles and didn't practice the day before her quarterfinal match.

I don't know if you are just a trouble maker or simply an idiot, in any case, you are truely pathetic and if you are trying to cause trouble, anyways you are an idiot as your arguments are totally lame.

loser

DaveMatthewsBand
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:12 AM
Just curious, how different is Belgian French from France French? (If that made sense...) Are there major differences between word usage and grammar? (Like Cantonese Chinese from Mandarin Chinese?) Or is it just small connotative factors? (Like British English and American English?)

I'm taking French right now, so I'm just curious. I agree with the other posters who said that when she says "for sure" she's thinking of "bien sur". I think Justine speaks very good English for a person who doesn't speak it naturally. Kim is obviously much better than Justine, but her accent throws me off and she talks so fast at first I thought she was speaking another language!! :eek:

gladysharon
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:33 AM
Originally posted by Fingon
I guess then to make it more credible she pulled out of the doubles and didn't practice the day before her quarterfinal match.

I don't know if you are just a trouble maker or simply an idiot, in any case, you are truely pathetic and if you are trying to cause trouble, anyways you are an idiot as your arguments are totally lame.

loser



Yeah he's right, which player wants to ruin his or her chances by not practising & playing a match if he/she is really faking?!

jujufan
Jan 24th, 2003, 10:20 AM
hey guys my opinion about this is that I don't like it too
Especially the flemmish media are always so subjective when it comes to kim and Justine ...

They even don't root for justine, very weird.
But i must agree, it has shown that Justine can take advantage of it. Each time they forget her she is doing so wel (berlin Rome Linz) and vica versa too, look at rolland garros 2002 snif snif...
So we should see it as a good thing, altough in our heart we know that Justine deserves so much more!

I like Kim too but not the reaction of the press ...

The Crow
Jan 24th, 2003, 12:13 PM
You know what? I don't really care if Belgian/Flemish media favours Kim. As long as they show the matches of Justine when they show the matches of Kim in the same tourney, I'm happy :)

tennischick
Jan 24th, 2003, 12:26 PM
does anyone know if Justine wants to be the center of attention? is it possible that she likes things fine the way they are, less pressure on her etc etc?? just curious.

Lynx
Jan 24th, 2003, 12:26 PM
Nemesis, okay - everything has calmed down, me included, AND I have the time (which I did not have yesterday evening, frustratingly enough), so I'm going to reply now.

I'll try and explain to you - and others who might think my reaction overdone - where you crossed the (not so thin) line between "defending your fave" and "attacking another player, to make your fave look better". This last thing "attacking another...etc", is also known as "hate-post"; you don't actually have to say "I hate..." to make it that. I thought you knew, but you seem to take things quite literally; this doesn't bode well for your intelligence. Oh, ok, ok, I know: I'm getting worked up again, please disregard that last snide remark. But I'm not going to remove it - see, that's how pissed off I still am. You are the very first poster who succeeded in achieving that; congratulations.

I'll also try to explain to everyone who might be interested why the things you repeatedly said about Francophones are deliberately offending - and if you do not know they are offending, then that alone is a slap in the face of the majority of the Belgians, namely Flemish people. I'm supposing here that you are a French speaking Belgian; if not, please accept my apologies, because then your ignorance is explained and has to be forgiven. Unless you would be a Flemish speaking Belgian, which I hardily could believe: it would compare to a black person saying that the discrimination by white people was justified. (Yes I KNOW I'm exaggerating, but not by nearly as much as you might think.)
Or maybe, just maybe, you are very, very young and very, very ignorant. Then let me enlighten you.

--------------------------------------------------------
First, what you wrote about the tournament and what both players achieved in it.

You are entitled to the opinion that Justine is the real number one player of all universes and could play the gods (oops!) goddesses themselves and easily beat them... if she hadn't have to play Lindsay first... and I might disagree with you, but I would never lose my temper over it. We all tend to exaggerate when it comes to our faves; I have no problem with that. Attention: I did not say here that this IS your opinion, it was hypothetical (I stipulate this because you clearly didn't get some of the things I said before).
I already said elsewhere, and more than once, that Justine's draw was really bad and Kim's wasn't - I was in fact the first one to point that out in the Clijsters Lounge. (Although Myskina was seen as a real threat by many, since she had beaten Kim before 2 out of 3 times.) The simple fact, however, that Kim was in Serena's half was considered by most Kim fans as a blow; they all saw Venus as the more beatable sister at the moment. Again I wasn't so sure, Venus being Venus (a player I admire, btw).
Saying afterwards that Justine and Kim played both as good is one of those opinions, however delusional (is this a word?), I can live with. Imo, and not only mine, Kim was much better, and you saying that people have such short time memories made me laugh. You clearly forgot with how much more ease Kim beat Lindsay in Sydney. Justine barely got by - but one has to admire her for the way she defeated Linds in the end.
--- Which, by the way, I did. Admire her, I mean. I cheered Justine on in the "her" cheering thread several times (saw your name there too); didn't see YOUR name ONCE in Kim's cheering thread, though. This says much, doesn't it? Fleemke², to name another passionate Juju fan, DID make her appearance in Kim's thread - I hereby greet her sportswomanship. (Well, I think Fleem is female; if you're not, Fleem, don't take offence, please). ---
Let me quote you: "If Kim had to play after a 3 h 15 min match while having had cramps in her legs in round 4, I bet she also would have lost in two short sets to Serena." You know what, Nemesis? The chief trainer of the Flemish tennis federation said that his was actually the best thing that could have happened to Justine: with the rest she had had, her body would be at his peak for the match against Venus. Just his expert opinion, not mine - I don't know about those things.
But what strikes ME as ironic is the way ppl always turn everything around to fit theit opinions. I heard it say that Kim wasn't really tested, that her draw was so easy that the moment of truth awaited her only in the SF... and that she would go down BECAUSE she hadn't had a tough match yet. Now here you are, saying the opposite. You can't have it both ways.
Btw: Justine's draw got much easier after the early exit of Jen, don't you think?
But like I said: everybody is entitled to their opinions as it comes to tennis.

--------------------------------------------------------
Secondly, about what was so full of hate and jealousy towards Kim.
I'll quote your last post first:
Originally posted by Nemesis
Lynxie: I am an editing-girl. I can't stand faults and uncomplete thoughts. I would never edit away my thoughts so I would be nice. And certainly not for you, Lynx :p ;) I already started editing before you hit the reply button. I'm obsessed ;)Only Things of Beuaty get to call me Lynxie, so none of you lip here, missy.
I can't stand faults either, editing for those reasons is totally ok. Editing with the intent to change "uncomplete thoughts" though is something entirely different. Me, I take my time to write a post (often too much time - not seldom lots of ppl have already posted new thoughts before my reply is finished) - and the more important the post, the more time I take... because I find it very awkward to be cought out on an "uncomplete thought". You were cought out on it, and tried to justify it afterwards... having edited things in such a way that they didn't sound as aggressive and hateful anymore.
That you started editing before I hit the reply button has nothing, but nothing to do with anything. I was replying to what you HAD posted and which was still there when I hit that button, not to your "uncomplete thoughts", which I could obviously not know at the time.
Since you admit that you began editing before I submitted my reply (two minutes before your edit appeared), you took not less than 23 minutes - the time of your post 6:45 --> the time of your edit 7:08, to complete your thoughts. That's a lot of completing, wouldn't you say? I don't care if you were "completing your thoughts" for me - where did I suggest that? I have no doubts whatsoever about you editing before I replied: too much of your original post was, ahh, "completed". But let me repeat, dear: me and you know what was/wasn't there before. Your post like it is now still doesn't sound very nice, but it sounded downright hateful and jealous before.
... And while I was replying to your second post, you edited that one, considerably, making parts of what I had been writing irrelevant. So I gave up, because I hadn't the time too keep up with all your "completing".
In Flemish we have this old saying "Bezint eer ge begint" - which means something like "Think before you jump". You should practice that. You definitely should. Miss Uncomplete Thought. (See? I'm still mad as hell. You should have taken my advise and run.)

--------------------------------------------------------
Finally, about your typical haughty remarks concerning Francophones.

1) we live in a country in which the majority of the ppl speak Flemish (=Dutch).
2) since the founding of our country in 1830, this (vast) majority has been discrimated against. Flemish ppl have been deliberately and systematically turned into French-speaking ppl. Brussels, once a 100% Flemish city, and still fully situated in Flanders, was turned into a French-speaking city by denying Flemish ppl the rights which were lawfully theirs.
In the whole of Flanders, but even more so in the region of Brussels, we could not go to school in our own language, we could not go to Court unless we spoke French, we could not go to any public service - and we certainly could not work in any - unless we spoke/understood French, we had to fulfill our military service under unilingual officers (the sentence "Et pour les Famands la même chose" = "And the same goes for the Flemish" is still famous in our part of the country) and we had to wait till the 1930's to see one for our own universities - Ghent, in the middle of Flanders - FINALLY turn into a Flemish speaking one.
All the industry was originally situated in Wallonia, so that the Walloon region got richer, while the Flemish ppl were kept farming and were looked down on. Barely one Walloon in those days ever learned to speak Flemish, that they disdainfully called "that language of peasants".
3) things changed eventually, like things tend to do. The industries which had kept the French minority so dominant in Belgium began to crumble - and with them, the French dominance crumbled. Flanders, home of hard working ppl who had learned not to expect anything, got richer; Wallonia, home of ppl who had learned that they were privileged and that the governement should provide for them, got poorer... and the balance of power shifted. There is STILL a lot of injustice going on, but most Flemish ppl are comfortably well off nowadays, so most of us don't care, and a lot of us don't even know. That we, as a majority, are paying vast sums of money so that Walloon policemen can get a higher pay than their Flemish counterparts; that we are transferring huge amounts to finance Walloon (and uniligual Brussels) hospitals, which are costing much more for every patient than the Flemish hospitals; that we granted French speaking inhabitants of once entirely Flemish-speaking villages near the "language-border" the facility to be treated in their own language (while in the mean time they were supposed to learn Flemish... which of course they never did and still won't) - all that is seen by most of our ppl as a form of solidarity... and so we pay without to much grunting, and we usually put up with it with some humor. Amazingly enough we don't hate Walloons - we are NOT a revengful ppl, we don't even know that the God of Revenge is female, stupid us.
4) but even today the majority of the French speaking Belgians systematically refuse to learn Flemish. Most of them don't even get it at school. Confronted with a Fleming, they'll say things like "Oh, I'm so sorry I never had it at school, and it's so difficult to learn - what good of you to speak French". And most of us, good humored as we are, shrug our shoulders and proceed in French, even if a lot of us cannot speak it very well, and even if you laugh at our accent.

NOTE: oh, yes - I forgot to mention that our royalty STILL doesn't speak Flemish. Sure - the King today has mastered it, he would not have been accepted otherwise, and the crown prince tries (he has to, also)... but that's it. The Queen - who has lived here for most of her life - does not speak more than two words - haltingly. In the Netherlands the new princess Maxima from Argentina learned to speak Dutch quicker and better than the new Belgian (Walloon) princess does today. But that's considered "normal" here. The Dutch would not be so forgiving. I don't know any people that would be.

So here we are today - producing two marvelous tennis players, one of each part of the country. And lo and behold: the French speaking player does not speak Flemish, and barely English - how could anybody expect that of her !!! - while her Flemish collegue speaks not only French as a matter of fact, but English also.

And then you have the guts to sit there behind your computer and say that Justine is less popular because the poor thing cannot speak Dutch. Or English.
Did you hear your little fave after winning Rosmalen in 2001? How she promised - TO THE DUTCH !!! - that she would learn Dutch come next year?
For the majority of the Belgians she would not do it.
For the Dutch, she promised.
(But she won't, of course. She's not like Dominique - who did learn, and who speaks it beautifully... and who was vilified by the Belgian French speaking press for marrying a Fleming and *GASP* taking his name. Monami-Van Roost - remember?)

I have no problem with Amélie Mauresmo (or any other player) not speaking very fluently in any other language than their own. I HAVE a problem with you saying that BECAUSE of Justine's "inability" to learn another language, she is less popular than that devilishly honey sweet talking totally uncool bun Kim, who happens to speak French and English, the bitch, with her bulldoggy father. Some things people do to be popular - like learning other languages - bah!

You know - if Justine had ever tried, only TRIED, to speak Flemish to the Flemish press, everybody here would have hugged her to death. That's how we are.

BTW - the Flemmish press said during the AO that she is becoming more spontaneous. She laughs more. She says it's because of her marriage. [b]But I think it's because they speak French with her.[b] ...

Quod erat demonstrandum.

fleemke³
Jan 24th, 2003, 12:33 PM
:eek:

Why do you start talking about our Royals :confused: that's another discussion I think

I'm a girl/woman and i think Nemesis is Flemish :o:o

and Justine did promise to the Flemisch people she would learn it ... I can remember her speaking a couple of words :D

Lynx
Jan 24th, 2003, 12:44 PM
Fleemke, hi :)

Our Royals are a living example of the disdain of the French speaking part of Belgium towards the Flemish ppl.

Since Nemesis was excusing Justine for not speaking Dutch, and making it a part of her argument why she wasn't as popular as Kim, I had to address the Flemish-French thing. So that if non-Belgians read this, they might understand why this is sensitive.

If Nemesis is Flemish se should learn some history. No more of those lame excuses for Walloon athletes.


When did Justine make that promise? And how many words Flemish does she knows now?
But if she is really trying, I have a reason more to cheer her on. :D

The Crow
Jan 24th, 2003, 12:46 PM
Lynx, wooha, such a post :eek: (but a great read I must say :)).

Now as fleemke says royalty is a whole other thing. "Afschaffen die handel" like we say in Flemish ;) So I'm not going into that.

About Justine, I think you are a bit unfair. Kim obviously has a feeling for languages. Justine (I guess) hasn't. She's 20, focussed on playing tennis all her life and is almost abroad all the time. So it's quite normal she's focussing on English instead of Dutch/Flemish. To compare: it's the same for me: I have to speak English a lot in my profession, I never have to speak French. So my French is really bad, and the reason I know a bit of French is because I learnt it in school, otherwise I would not be able to speak French at all!

Now, I'm only talking about Justine as an individual here, not about the Flemish-Walloon discussion. I'm really ignorant about the whole Flemish-Walloon discussion...

Lynx
Jan 24th, 2003, 12:56 PM
Hi Crow :)

I'm glad you liked my prose. Took me a hell of a lot of time to write it - but I wanted every base covered.

I have worked in Wallonia, and I really like the ppl there. For the most part they're spontaneous and friendly and really welcoming.

BUT. But... I had to deal on an almost daily basis with remarks like "I was in Ghent yesterday, and I asked directions - and they didn't answer me in French! Can you believe that. They KNOW I don't speak Flemish!!" *consternation & indignation of all the Walloon bystanders*

OR: "Well, I really wanted to learn Dutch - but it's such an ugly language, so I gave it up." (That was a woman, talking to ME, knowing I was Flemish).

So yes, my hair stands on end when this kind of thing comes up...

The Crow
Jan 24th, 2003, 01:02 PM
Lynx, I agree with you in the general Walloon/Flemish thing. But it's a history thing, and it is very hard to change that. But I think it's evolving (although slowly I admit). And the royalty could play a role in this, but they won't. One more reason for them to go.

But as I said I think it's a bit unfair to put all this on Justine (which you actually didn't I know, but you know what I mean ;)). You could also say that Kim is the typical "Flemish girl" who speaks French to the Walloon media, when maybe they could speak Flemish to her? ;)

fleemke³
Jan 24th, 2003, 01:07 PM
Just get education in the 2 languages from the first year on school :D:cool: ;)

Think about the youth that Justine had ... did she had the time to study English/Dutch? I think that it's not that she doens't want to learn it (she's probably not excitited about it ;)) but they're things in her live/youth that were more important I THINK

Lynx
Jan 24th, 2003, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by The Crow
... You could also say that Kim is the typical "Flemish girl" who speaks French to the Walloon media, when maybe they could speak Flemish to her? ;) Yep. But most of them won't, Crow - most of them couldn't. That's the sad truth. :sad:
For the majority of Walloons I even can understand it. As a Walloon I might not have bothered myself to learn a language which is only spoken by some 20 million ppl... But the Press should speak both languages, and our Royalty (yeah - let's kick them out - who needs them! :p ), and our politicians... :(

Fleemke², Justine has been a professional tennis player for several years now. She has earned more money than I will ever see. She has vast amounts of time. With enough money + time + some brains (and I believe she's smart enough!) you could master a language in a few months, if you really wanted to.

As a pro tennis player of Belgium, and a very succesful one, she represents Belgium in the world. Most ppl of other countries still think Belgians speak French. Mark Wilmots learned to speak Flemish. Before him, Michel Preud'homme learned... so why can't she?

But yes - she has "more important things to do". :mad:

(Not mad @ you, Fleem!) :)


Edit: Most ppl of other countries still think ALL Belgians speak French.

jujufan
Jan 24th, 2003, 02:09 PM
After reading this, I actually agree on Lynx, Justine could learn Flemmish if she wanted.
If she did learn flemmish and could master it she would indeed gain some popularity within the flemmish media ... But what is more imortant, practicing tennis and make sure you have good results wich the whole country and some fans in the world are hoping for or practicing a language cause the half of your country wants it too.

But I also believe that she doesn't have much time and don't forget that the press doesn't leave her alone so will she ever have time or the privacy to learn it if you always travel from one country to the other and that you have a bunch of reporters following you?

She did learn flemmish at school but she also quit school too soon to master flemmish.
Don't forget that she did speak a few words flemmish in Antwerpen last year, that was a nice effort.

The Crow
Jan 24th, 2003, 02:17 PM
Lynx, you're trying to compare things, but it's apples and pears (like we say in Flemish lol ;)). Wilmots and Preudhomme learnt Flemish because they have played in a Flemish team (KV Mechelen). Totally different than Justine. Btw I think it would be a good thing for Justine to study Flemish, but I'm not going as far as that she SHOULD study Flemish. It's her choice. And I don't like all that "she represents our country" stuff... Justine and Kim are there to play tennis, that's it, if they learn French, Flemish, ok, but it stays their choice.

You are of course right (again) on reporters, politicians, and so on.

jujufan
Jan 24th, 2003, 02:18 PM
"Did you hear your little fave after winning Rosmalen in 2001? How she promised - TO THE DUTCH !!! - that she would learn Dutch come next year?"

This makes me laugh, it reminds me to Capriati when she had to do that speech at roland garros 2001.
Didn't she promiss in front of I don't know how many people sitting and watching tv ... that she would learn french???
I wonder how Capriati her french is now ...

Lynx
Jan 24th, 2003, 03:42 PM
Did she? I didn't get to see much of the Proximus Diamond Games last year :sad: - but good for her, then. :D

LMAO @ her not having enough time to learn. I bet you a thousand to one she's got lots and lots more time than most of us... even considering how much time we all seem to have to post here so intensively.

But most of all, ex-kimmiefan, I was answering Nemesis' excuses and explanations of why Juju was less popular than Kim. I know a lot of Juju fans hate the fact that Kim is more widely liked, and especially in Belgium. I can relate to that. What offends me, however, is Juju fans saying that Kim "plays the press" better, that she has this unfair advantage of "speaking better/more laguages" etc. Kim made sure she spoke her languages - SHE took the time; SHE made the effort. Why can't others?

But to tell you the truth, I don't even think Nemesis' point valid - outside of Belgium, that is. Lots of girls from all over the world speak an abominable kind of English - but they are not less liked for it. Saying that Kim is more liked by the international press because she speaks better English is, therefore, nonsense, bilge, claptrap, humbug! And not true. It's putting Kim down.

Like I said before in this thread somewhere - I have posted rather more here than I wanted or ever expected to ! (but if somebody addresses me, I think he/she is entitled to an answer) - Kim is one of those Golden People who simply can not help to be liked. I'm not saying she is perfect - nobody is - but she has this kind of personality which makes her popular with a lot of ppl. Not liking her for that very reason is the worst case of sour grapes I've ever encountered. Saying that she fakes it, "playing the press" and all that, is guaranteed to put me in a frenzy. As you may have witnessed. It's just not fair towards Kim.

IF Justine is less liked by the international press, then that comes with her less inviting demeanor. She's a lot more tense, intense and uncompromising, saying she wants to become the number one, sometimes attacking other players out of frustration... things which generally invite less admiration. Quite a lot of her fans here, on the board, seem to like her just for that, though, and that's their right.

But I won't stand people putting Kim down, because Justine happens to be less engaging. :(


Well, this is my last post in this thread - it's getting out of hand. :rolleyes:

Nemesis, I really don't want an ongoing fight with you, believe me; but like I said several times before: you seriously pissed me off. I may even have overreacted (a little), I'll give you that. (But don't attack my fave anymore :mad: ) Let's enjoy the simple fact that we have those two wonderful players in Belgium (one friendly, one... ermm, nah, I'm not gonna say it :p ) ok?

Look in the Juju cheering thread at my posts: I'm really not such a bad guy. :)

:wavey:


Hey ho - two new replies, I see! Damn! Ok, very quickly then:

Crow, I don't agree - I think an athlete is one of the most important representatives of his/her country nowadays (look at how much politicians want to be seen in their company!!). They are more widely known throughout the world than almost anybody else... That's the reason they get payed so much - pr. That's the reason they should put in an effort. My opinion.

jujufan - yeah, Capriati, everybody knows she said that just to please the crowd. Juju's promise, she being from a country where the majority speaks Dutch, doesn't compare. It's more like a Spanish speaking American promising she'll learn English next time around...


And now I'm really, really gone. I'm going out tonight - so I won't be online much longer.

Bye guys and gals :) :) :)

Note: my very first words refer to jujufan's first post.

The Crow
Jan 24th, 2003, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by Lynx
Like I said before in this thread somewhere - I have posted rather more here than I wanted or ever expected to ! (but if somebody addresses me, I think he/she is entitled to an answer) - Kim is one of those Golden People who simply can not help to be liked. I'm not saying she is perfect - nobody is - but she has this kind of personality which makes her popular with a lot of ppl. Not liking her for that very reason is the worst case of sour grapes I've ever encountered. Saying that she fakes it, "playing the press" and all that, is guaranteed to put me in a frenzy. As you may have witnessed. It's just not fair towards Kim.


I totally agree by this. She is like she is (as is Justine :p). Just accept people are different and act/react differently. World would be boring if everyone was like Kim. World would be equally boring if everyone was like Justine ;)

The Crow
Jan 24th, 2003, 04:07 PM
And Lynx, about the sport(wo)men have obligations/being representatives of their country. I don't agree. First thing is they should play their sport as good as they can. They should be paid (heaps) because they play their sport as good as they can/want to. All the other things are up to them. Period. (so we can agree to disagree here I think ;)) (Frankly I hate all that BS about representing your country and stuff, but that's probably just me).

The Crow
Jan 24th, 2003, 04:07 PM
Oh and have fun ;)

Nemesis
Jan 24th, 2003, 04:09 PM
Lynx - you are taking this all too serious!

You think I edited my posts just to make your make replies seem unreasonable. I'm no villain! I'm shoked by your reaction. But I forgive. First: I would NEVER edit posts to make others seem bad. I do it for myself, when I read when what I've written was not the way I wanted to let it come over. The fact that I hit the reply button too quickely, is true. But as a 19-year old Flemmish speaking woman, I am not the person who wants to spent much time wasting on one lousy reply. When I re-read it, I sometimes see that could've been better formulated ... But I'd never change my thoughts to make it seem nice. I stand 100% behind my previous posts. And I swear I didn't change them just for you. I hope that is cleared out.

About the Kim-thing again. You say Kim would've easily beaten Lindsay at the 4th round in a Grand Slam? Well, you tend to forget that all top-players set their game in top-notch for a GS. Lindsay was playing better in 4th round than she did in te Sydney final. I agree that Kim would've beaten Lindsay more easily than Justine, but I think it would have been 6-4 6-3. The fact that the chief trainer of the Flemmish tennis federation says it was good for her, isn't that relieable. Bodies can react differently to same situations. Justine has a slight body build and she worked on her condition in Florida, which shows that it wasn't that good.

And about the language part: I know JuJu could put effort in speaking and learning Dutch and English, but she can speak the basic things and if she thinks that is enough, well .... Then you have to accept it. You just have to keep in mind that it is much easier for the Flemmish to adapt a language because their accent permits them to speak another language more easy than the Dutch, Walloons, French, English, Americans, Germans, Spannish ... It is a fact. You have exceptions but those enforce the fact.
If you were a big fan, you'd remember that JuJu has already spoken Dutch on TV. Not recently, but she has. But most of the time the Flemmish press itself begins to her in French! You can't blame her for them beginning. And BTW, if you remember the exhibition match between Kim and JuJu in Charleroi. The interviewer asked a question in French and Kim responded in Dutch. I totally do not blame her for it, but since you seem to reproach JuJu for a similar thing, do you reproach Kim for it?
And you didn't need to write that whole thing about the royal family and the history. I knew that. But I appreciate that you took the time for it in case I didn't knew it.

And the last thing: why does each JuJu fan have to cheer on Kim? I respect her, but I do not cheer on her. In my mind I hope she wins as much as possible, but I have no need to write it down. And when JuJu's out, I cheer upon my other favs: Venus and Amelie. Kim comes after them. It's not because you are Belgian that you have to have JuJu and Kim on 1 and 2. A lot of Americans cheer upon other players than Seles, the Williamses, Cappy and Lindsay. But I have no need to cheer upon 2 players at the same time. Only one can win!

Bottom of the line - I admire JuJu for her tennis and the character she has. I'm sure you do the same with Kim. Let's not argue about the Walloons and Flemmish. I didn't want to. I just reacted on the fact that JuJu seems boring because of the unability to speak English as good as Kim partially because of the French and partially because she's more shy . (<- bolded :) )

Nemesis
Jan 24th, 2003, 04:23 PM
BTW this is my last post too and I spent much time to it. I hadn't read your reply yet because of that, so don't be mad.

Let bygones be bygones! We will always have a diferent opinion about this. It's not worth our energy by typing on the keyboard.

EDIT - ;)

jujufan
Jan 24th, 2003, 04:38 PM
Conclusion:
So we all agree on the fact that Juju could learn flemmish ...
Let's stop about this, we don't know juju her shedule so we will never know if she has the time and why she isn't learning flemmish ... No use to argue about that cause we will never agree haha ...

And that Kim is more then all right but that it's our personal choise if we like her or not (I am still a kim fan)
She does speak easily with the press but she got a good example: father ...
I believe when you say she is natural social ... She is just one of the few girls who is social without doing any hard work for it ...
That's life, one got to work harder then others
And now the media, that's a hard topic.
The first question was is Juju ignored???
I think we should check the press from outside belgium, I guess that she isn't ignored there.
WE all agree on the fact that in Belgium she is indeed ignored by the flemmish press, nothing we can do about it ...

fleemke³
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:05 PM
WE all agree on the fact that in Belgium she is indeed ignored by the flemmish press, nothing we can do about it ...

The only thing we can do is support Justine so that she gets some more results that the Flemmish press can't ignore ;)

Josh
Jan 24th, 2003, 08:15 PM
Wow Lynx, there's a lot of prejudices and untrue stuff in your post about Dutch and French speakers in Belgium.

I'm not gonna go into this completely but just a few remarks :

-You're confusing Walloons and the French speaking elite who controlled the country (politically and economically). This elite was French speaking but was of Flemish and Walloon origin. They were mostly people from the big cities. A century ago, the Walloon population was no better of than the Flemings.

-It's also not true that the profits from the big industries only benefited the southern part of the country. It was also used to develop the railway system and the port facilities of Antwerp and Ghent. So your sentence "Wallonia, home of ppl who had learned that they were privileged and that the governement should provide for them, got poorer" is everything but true. Most of these so called privileged people lived actually in Flanders as they belonged to the Flemish "bourgeoisie" who spoke French.

-The fact that we pay lots of money to the poor Wallonia is much exaggerated btw and besides we've paid much more to those poor Spaniards or Irish when they joined the EU.

-Your argument of French speakers not wanting to learn Flemish holds some truth but is rather dated. Many French speakers have realised that they have to learn Dutch if they want to find a job and they have no trouble speaking Dutch even if they have a very thick accent. The truth is that Flemish people still ASSUME that a French speaker won't speak Dutch so they start of right away in French.

-When Kim is interviewed by French TV she ALWAYS speaks Dutch. The only time she has spoken French was after the final of Roland Garros.


It just seems like you have a very dated image of Wallonia and French speakers in general Lynx. The reverse is also true, French speakers have a very dated image of Flanders as well. Th ething is, the media from one part of the country is not really interested in what happens in the other part, Flanders always looks to The Netherlands and Wallonia always looks to France.

DaveMatthewsBand
Jan 25th, 2003, 05:01 AM
Just curious, how can a nation stand to be divided by the language barrier? If one Belgian can't speak to another, doesn't that sort of inhibit the nation's progress on certain issues?

Blogger Dives
Jan 25th, 2003, 05:06 AM
Just for the record, I thought I'd let everyone on this post know. Today I started trying to learn Dutch on my own. :o Through a CD Rom course, it's just the basics but we'll see how well I can learn it and how quickly. Maybe if it works I can send Juju a copy and let her try! ;)
BTW, I had 4 years of French... and can't speak a word of it really. :eek: lol

minboy
Jan 25th, 2003, 10:00 AM
what josh said!

such a shame that a 'juju is being ignored' thread has to turn into a wallon - flemish thing!!!

lynx : not only flemish people were 'forced' to speak french, but also walloon peolpe were 'forced' to!!
Off course they are a lot of similarities between french and walloon language, but the process was the same : both people were told " you're speaking a low-class language, you have to speak the language of the elite". SO in terms of "symbolic violence" ( if u don't know what it means, you should read the books of french sociologist Pierre BOurdieux ), the "you have to speak french" process was equally painful for flemish and walloon people. And like josh said, belgium was not ruled by walloon bourgeoisie, but by both walloon and flemish bourgeoisie, both speaking french!! That's the reason why brussels turned into a mostly french speaking city : people from brussels were not forced to speak french, they CHOOSE to speak french because , like any other big cities, brussels citizens were bourgeois!

about flemish people being better at foreign languagues than french-speaking people.....SO TRUE!! BUt you should not forget that it's not just about 'being good at foreign languages' : you guys in flanders are watching tv -series, movies,......in english/french SUBTITLED in flemish! while in the french speaking community, people are watching tv-series, movies in english DUBBED in french! When you know that the average teenager spend 3 to 4 hours a day in front of the telly, you understand why flemish kids are much better at english, french than the french-speaking kids are at english/flemish.
Also, peolpe tend to learn a foreign language when they NEED TO. French -speakers don't feel like it is that necessary to speak another language because french is spoken worldwide anyway. That's why most of english -speaker do not speak any other language a part from english : why should they? everyone knows how to speak english anyway!!!!
ON the other hand, dutch is speaking by some 20 millions people around the world, so unless you learn foreign language, you ain't going anywhere!!!

I agree that french speakers should do big efforts to learn how to speak flemish and that they should stop saying that 'dutch is an ugly language', but you should understand that in the ears of a french speaker, there's nothing more irritating than dutch and german. I don't know the reason for this, but it's a fact, i guess it's in our culture, and we cannot help beating that.
BUT we're making efforts and, correct me if I am wrong, but french-speaking belgians are the ONLY PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD who are at least TRYING to speak dutch!!! Please give us some credit for that!

per4ever
Jan 25th, 2003, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by DaveMatthewsBand
Just curious, how can a nation stand to be divided by the language barrier? If one Belgian can't speak to another, doesn't that sort of inhibit the nation's progress on certain issues?

flemish people learn french from age 10 to ...
walloon people learn dutch :)

but mostly when flemish AND walloon people have to talk together they speak french

Lynx
Jan 27th, 2003, 04:05 AM
Jeez, I was so not going to post here anymore, and now I have to, because of those two posts. *sigh*
Well I don't really have to, of course, but I just can't leave it at this... to be called prejudiced AND a liar in the same sentence... my, my! Josh - are you sure you live in Belgium?

Ok, like you, I'm not gonna go into this completely either, but I'll reply to your remarks.
First, though, let me state the following:

Yes, I simplified things - a lot. Otherwise I would have to have written a MUCH longer post (and I thought it quite long enough). You also could catch me on the occasional exaggeration: to make a point, an exaggeration can be very illustrative.
But prejudices and untrue stuff? Nope. And I very strongly object to your wording, btw.

-----------------------------------
1) the origin of the French speaking elite is of no importance whatsoever. Fleming = one who speaks Flemish and /or who declares himself to be Flemish; the French speaking elite were certainly no Flemings. If you are going to say that genetics define who is a Fleming and who is not, then I am not. But I am.

A century ago, the Walloon population was without any doubt better off than the Flemings. They may have been forced to give up their dialect (like we are supposed to speak "general Dutch" in public), but Walloon was/is a French dialect. The governement spoke French, the army spoke French, they didn't have to learn a completely strange language to make a carrier in public service or in the army, or to go to the university, or to go to court. They certainly were privileged that way. (There is no Walloon equivalent of the "Et pour les Flamands la même chose".)
The port facilities and railway system were not exactly developed for the benefit of Flanders. For an industry to prosper, there must be trade. For trade to be possible, there must be transport. So railways and ports were needed. To develop a port, one needs a sea or a stream near the sea. These conditions existed only in Flanders.
The investments in the north of the country obviously provided jobs there. But what language do you think did the management speak? Or the stockholders?

My sentence "Wallonia, home of ppl who had learned that they were privileged and that the governement should provide for them, got poorer," is provocative and onesided, to say the least. But untrue it is NOT. I'm not going to dwell on this or try to prove it. In the period of time I was talking about, it was obvious for anybody with eyes to see. But maybe you're too young.

2) the transfer of money is not one of my exaggerations, I'm very sorry to say. If anything, it's undervalued. It has been going on for several decennia now. Does the word "compensations" ring a bell?
The amount of "belgian money" which has gone to Spain or Ireland in the EU-construction has nothing to do with it - you should know that. The Flemish-Walloon transfers were going on before that, and were never meant to help a poorer region to catch up with the rest in the first place - they are only maintaining a balance of injustice.
Or solidarity, in some cases. I have no problems with solidarity; I do have problems with injustice.

3) "French speakers not wanting to learn Flemish holds some truth but is rather dated." Nope, nothing dated about it, I'm afraid. :sad: Makes me wonder where you live, again. Were you ever in an hospital in Brussels?
Let's make a bet: I'm betting that of all the Flemish ppl only 1/10 CANNOT make themselves understood in French, and that of all the French speaking ppl only 1/10 CAN make themselves understood in Flemish. (I think it's much less than 1/10 in both cases, but I wanted to stay on the safe side.) Let's bet our wtaworld-membership. :p
And I'm sorry, but Flemish ppl have all kind of reasons to ASSUME a French speaker won't speak Dutch, and most of us are still TRAINED to start in French. My anecdote about this Walloon being outraged because he WAS NOT answered in French... in Ghent, dates from a few years back. Same with that woman who thought Dutch "too ugly" to learn. Read what Minboy has to say about that if you won't believe me. Dated - pah.

4) "When Kim is interviewed by French TV she ALWAYS speaks Dutch."
Good for her! At last !!
Josh - my point was not that Justine should speak Dutch when inteviewed. I can imagine you got that impression, but it really is not. Read back. The language question came up in connection with popularity.
This being said - Kim DOES speak French; Justine does NOT speak Dutch... yet (???)
-----------------------------------

I could not disagree more with the whole of your conclusion. You speak ex cathedra and give your verdict: prejudiced! untrue! but I have the impression you don't know what you speak about. It's only a few years ago that I worked in Wallonia. That would make my assessment of things quite up to date. For the rest... "facilities" are here to stay. Transfers do exist. A majority of the French speaking ppl didn't and still doesn't speak Dutch.
Sure things have shifted again, like things do. A few French speaking kids are sent to Flemish schools now, because their parents know they'll get a better training in languages than in a French school --- and that in itself is revolutionary. On the other hand: more and more Flemish ppl do not want to learn French as a second language anymore: English has become more important, being the world language, and since this Belgian bilingual thing was only ever achieved by Flemish ppl... you know: it takes two to tango.

Try telling in Wallonia that they always look at France - but prepare yourself first for a lot of indignation !! Most Walloons feel much more Belgian than most Flemish do... and for very obvious reasons.
A last anecdote from my yrs in Wallonia. Several times, I was asked by kids (from ages 8 - 12 !!) how it could be that, if I WAS a Belgian, Belgian was not my native language?

I challenge you to find a Flemish kid who would think Flemish = Belgian. One. ONLY one. :p :)

Lynx
Jan 27th, 2003, 04:13 AM
What I answered Josh !

I'm sorry if you feel I'm responsible for turning this thread in a walloon - flemish thing. The language-argument was not an argument I would have brought up willingly. But it WAS brought up, and I felt compelled to explain the origin of some sensibilities.

Minboy, the different Walloon dialects are closely related to French, aren't they?
Flemish ppl underwent the process you discribe much later: they had to give up their dialects, and learn to speak (more or less) like the Dutch do. But for decennia before that, Flemings had to know a totally different language to get by. And no, Minboy - the ppl of Brussels DID NOT CHOOSE TO SPEAK FRENCH, THEY WERE FORCED TO. I'm quite certain of my facts, here. There were laws (I don't know anymore when exactly) that said that Flemish kids had the right to attend Flemish primary school --- but at the same time Flemish schools were being closed or chased out of the city. I'm not laying this at the feet of you or Justine or anybody else: I like Walloons - I had more friends when I was working in Wallonia than I ever had in Flanders. I don't know exactly why - maybe because I have more of a "latin" character?

I agree with most of your second paragraph; some of it I said so myself in my earlier posts. It was not me, however, who said that Flemish ppl are better at foreign languages; it was me who said that it is NOT easier for a Fleming to learn another language than it is for a French speaking person. Flemings are better at it for all the reasons you mentioned, true... and I repeat: "as a Walloon I might not have bothered myself to learn a language which is only spoken by some 20 million ppl."
Still - it isn't fair, is it?

And what you say about Dutch being irritating to the ears of a French speaker pains me. It really does. There is no such thing as an ugly language. Take French - Molière, Bécaud, Brel... and my absolute favorite: the immortal Prévert. "Il est terrible le petit bruit de l'oeuf dur cassé sur un comptoir d'étain" - formidable! OTOH is French not a very versatile language, not like English is. That language is so rich. And yes, Dutch has it's own treasures. You can do things in Dutch that you cannot do in any other language, not even in English... so yes, it pains me. Because it can ONLY stem of a prejudice that elders pass on to their children.

SOME French-speaking belgians may well be the only ppl in the world that are TRYING to speak dutch, but how do you reckon we should give you credit for that? Would it not be a simple form of politesse? How much credit shouldn't you give us, then!!!
But I'm ok with this solution: let's all learn English as a second language, and speak to each other in English. Then we would be, for the very first time, on an equal footing.
But DO LEARN English then, please. (Yours, btw, seems to at least as good as mine, so that's already ok then :) )

And now I AM done with posting here.

No - 1 more post ...

Lynx
Jan 27th, 2003, 04:16 AM
Originally posted by Blogger Dives
Just for the record, I thought I'd let everyone on this post know. Today I started trying to learn Dutch on my own. :o Through a CD Rom course, it's just the basics but we'll see how well I can learn it and how quickly. Maybe if it works I can send Juju a copy and let her try! ;)
BTW, I had 4 years of French... and can't speak a word of it really. :eek: lol Great Blogger Dives!!! :)
But learning something on your own is always difficult.
Feel free to pm me with any questions you might have. Concerning Dutch, I mean... :) :) :)

Lynx
Jan 27th, 2003, 04:18 AM
Originally posted by Nemesis
... EDIT - ;) And the very, very last one.
lol @ Nemesis. :D

Josh
Jan 27th, 2003, 11:17 AM
Gosh Lynx, I'm truly baffled by so much ignorance. I guess you only get your information from Flemish propaganda? :rolleyes:

Walloon is a dialect close to French but most Walloons only spoke that dialect and didn't speak French, just like most Flemings spoke their dialect and not standard Dutch. There has been as much opposition against this process of Frenchisation in Wallonia as in Flanders.

Furthermore your definition of Flemings = people who speak Flemish couldn't be more wrong. Historically Flanders has always been a bilingual region, the Flemish elite has ALWAYS spoken French. The Flemish bourgeoisie identified themselves as Flemish even though they spoke French.

As to the point of money transfers I'm saying this : we live in the same country so we're supposed to be solidary with eachother. Or is the slogan "Eigen volk eerst" what you are refering to? Besides we poor Flemings are really hurt and limited in our progress by those poor Walloons. :rolleyes:

And the argument of French speakers still not wanting to speak Dutch is indeed dated. I'm talking about the new generation, people of my age, who are doing big efforts to master our language but maybe you're too old to know that.

Also I'm afraid to say that it's going downwards with the French knowledge of Flemish students. So I'm not so sure about your 1/10 theory.....I agree that there are still more Flemings who can make themselves understood in French than vice versa but the gap is much smaller than you make it look.

I do agree though that if you live in a multilingual country you should learn to speak the other language(s) and it's not because one of those languages is spoken by not many people that you shouldn't learn it.

per4ever
Jan 27th, 2003, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by Josh
And the argument of French speakers still not wanting to speak Dutch is indeed dated. I'm talking about the new generation, people of my age, who are doing big efforts to master our language but maybe you're too old to know that.

Also I'm afraid to say that it's going downwards with the French knowledge of Flemish students. So I'm not so sure about your 1/10 theory.....I agree that there are still more Flemings who can make themselves understood in French than vice versa but the gap is much smaller than you make it look.


nice convo you guys have here :o

Josh...I don't agree with the first part AT ALL!! I've been working for three years in brussels during the holidays, and I know what I'm talking about. Only a few really try to speak dutch, most of them just think that everyone speak french and don't do efforts.

I don't know where you live (thought near brussels?)..but just ask the walloon people on this board if they speak dutch (well). For instance, ask Axel (come-on-kim), he lives 2 km away from flanders and has a flemish mum. I don't want to insult anyone, but most walloon people don't do an effort to learn our language.

About that second part I quoted: I'm afraid that's sooo true :sad: The knownledge of french of flemish people is getting really bad. I'm afraid it's because of english. English is becoming very important in the big international companies. And when several nationalities or people with a different language work together they tend to speak english.

Elizajoey
Jan 27th, 2003, 12:00 PM
Hi...

I'm an Aussie daring to enter into a debate about Belgium :)

Beware of going OT.. I'm renowned for that ;)

I've gotta say that Lynx, you're comments about the history of Belgium was extremely.... I remember when I was younger, I was always amazed how a country worked with two languages and stuff.... Even the little things like TV.... My grandparents lived over there for several years when I was really really young and they lived in both 'parts' of Belgium but reading your post, I started to understand the situation a bit more....

The situation between the French and Flemish speaking people of Belgium and I know if any Aussies come here, they will probably be shocked and etc but it reminds me a bit of the European settlers and Aboriginal people over here.... It appears from what I know a little of and what you wrote in your post that the French treated the Flemish like the European settlers treated the Aboriginal people...

Okay now, the 'Aussie" opinion of what you've been saying....

I was always on the basis that Flemish/Dutch was a much easier language to convert to English so thats why I always found Dutch/Flemish speaking people to be more fluent in English.
I was also on the basis that the reason why Kim's English is really good is the fact that she grew up with a dad that was very much involved in the media and spotlight and therefore ensured his daughters learnt English but your post has got me thinking differently so thanks :)

Now back to the original question or topic at hand :)

I think Kim is more well known because of the language barrier... I dont mean that Justine is disadvantage by it but that Kim is more openly admired/liked/welcomed whatever you want to call it because of the language barrier.... I notice in interview on TV and stuff that her grasp of English is much better so therefore she is more open to the media and stuff.

So Lynx, with the paragraph I wrote above, please dont take it the wrong way... English is my first language and I cant even form sentences correctly :lol: But I hope you get what I'm saying and I'm not trying to be the opposite of what you're saying... I actually agree with you....

Now the other comment that was floating around was with being global and around the world....

Well I'm Aussie and I dont even cheer for Aussie players because they bore me or I dont like their style of play... I cheer for Belgiums in both the WTA and ATP because I love their style of play....

With the girls, I like both of them as much as the other.... I follow each one in the tournament and hope that they meet in the final because that way no one is the 'loser' because they have got as far as possible....

Over here in Oz, it's completely different... Kim is treated like an absolute gem and Justine is more like "Justine who?!".. But thats because of the Aussie factor...

I was actually at the match that they played in Sydney and I went to the match, not minding who won at all, just hoping that it would be a terrific game of tennis but through the duration of the match, I found myself cheering for Justine, not because she was losing but because of the pro-Kim sentiment and basically the anti-Justine vibe that I got from around me!!!

I dont find it unusual because over here Kim is basically seem as an Aussie and cheering for Kim is like cheering for an Aussie for those people who are patriotic in their tennis players.

It's funny to me though because before I started following Kim I couldn't stand Lleyton AT ALL.... but I grew to warm to him because of the link with Kim....

I also notice over here... I dont know about Belgium but Kim is really loved by the media here because even over in Australia- not her homeland, she does a huge amount for charities and stuff over here..... I remember when she down here in Sydney for the Masters Cup that time, she visited a Children's hospital across the road from my school.... She did a lot of fundraising for the bushfires over here and she does a lot for one particular organisation called Starlight....

I'm not trying to say that Justine is selfish so dont talk it that way please.... I'm just giving up some extra reasons why Kim may get more attention then Justine...

Originally posted by Nemesis
BTW - the Flemmish press said during the AO that she is becoming more spontaneous. She laughs more. She says it's because of her marriage.

I've gotta agree with this.... I noticed it both in Sydney and the OZ Open... I remember when she did her first on-court interview, she was so bubbly and cheery... it was even a shock for someone who is a fan of hers.... I'm still pessimistic of marriage but I do sort of agree with Justine or well I can see that as a reason.... I think that although Justine and Pierre-Yves were basically married because they lived together and stuff... But she appears so much more cheerier and I noticed in Sydney that she was much more open to people and stuff.....

Well I dont mean to go OT and invade a "Belgium" debate but I just found the topic interesting... I hope you understand me because I think I've lost what I'm trying to say!!!!...

minboy
Jan 27th, 2003, 12:34 PM
lynx : i'm really sorry if i hurt you saying' there's nothing more irritating that dutch and german in the ears of a french-speaker"

BUt i feel like i've been misunderstood. Just ask an italian what he thinks is the most irritating language in the world. I guess 7 out of 10 would answer 'german'. Why? because of that german/roman barrier. THat said, it does not mean that italians THINK german is an ugly language, it just means that italians FEEL like german is 'irritating' to their ears! completely different!!!!! The same goes for french-speakers feelings about dutch.
And when the hell did i say that dutch wasn't a rich language! off course it is!!! Actually dutch is a much more 'flexible' language that french, flexibility being a sign of how 'powerful' ( yes, powerful ) a language can be. The reason i'm stating that is because of the 'words combinations' dutch languages allows, which is certainly not the case for french!! (poor us french-speakers!!).
ANd dutch culture is SOOOO interesting, as is german culture. Would we still be talkin' about Nietsche, Hegel, Kant, Heidegger ( i know he was danish but he used to write in german ) if they 'd been french-speakers? NO NO NO, because german allows kinds of philosophical thoughts that french does not allow. Still, french-speakers FEEL like 'german language is irritating', BUT I challenge you to find any "instructed" french-speaker who thinks that german culture does not worth french culture. Off course you'll find some, but there are assholes everywhere, isn't it?

And please do not take on us, belgian-frenchspeakers, because where not that good at foreign languages!! DO u even know about 'real' french-speakers ( from france, i mean )? Those guys HARDLY know there are other languages than theirs!!!

believe it or not, i do really like flemish/dutch. I use to learn it at secondary school, but since i left (c about 4 years ago) i do not have any opportunities to practise it at all. So now i frequently watch flemish tv, programma such as 'het laatste show' and stuff like that., and i'm really starting to love flemish. I Guess lot of my fellow french speakers would think the same if only they made the effort to turn the channel to vtm, vrt, ......
BUt wallons are lazy, everybody knows that, huh? (ok, just kidding here )

One more thing about the economical gap between flanders and wallonia : recent studies show that the gap is no more north/south as everyone still thinks it is, but much more west/east( east being rich---provinces of ANtwerp, limburg, luik,... and west being poor --henegouwen, west-flanders, ...). Think about it next time you 'll talk about you 'financial transfers'!!!!

minboy
Jan 27th, 2003, 01:59 PM
one more thing then i'm out:

lynx:
Walloon language may be a french dialect, you cannot imagine how walloon differs from french. Nowadays, most of the walloon people cannot even understand it. TRy to talk in walloon to a french guy, he would not understand a single word, and certainly would not believe that this is a french dialect.

DOn't believe me? take a look at this :
walloon :

Ké lingaedje sicrijheut on el Walon'reye des trevints del Mweyenne Adje? Esteut ce do walon todi dpus maxhi di frances, ou do francès todi moensmaxhi di walon ( on scrit lingaedje batijhi li scripta)? çu k'i gn a todi di seur, c' est po on prumi ki c'est mal°ajhey do savu comint ce ki li lingaedje di ces tins la esteut lî eyet rsinti.
Deuzyinmmint, li scrit lingaedje di ces trevints la, on n' l'°areut sepu scrire ene sadju d'°Ote k'av°arci, ca i gn a dvins, poel moens, des bokets walons( branmint ou waire, mins i gn a). Troezyinmmint, lit scrit lingaedje s'a raprepi todi pus foirt do francès standard (avou ene ou lôte disrileye ).


now the french translation :
la nature de la langue écrite en pays walon au MOyen age (outre le latin ) est encore contreversée : s'agissait-il d'un francais de moins en moins wallonisé ( une langue spécifiquement écrite baptisée scripta ) ou d'un wallon écrit de plus en plus francisé? Deux ou trois certitudes : d'abord, il est souvent difficile de dire comment les graphies de l'époque étaient prononcées; ensuite, cette langue n'aurait pu etre écrite nulle part ailleurs qu'en wallonie, puisqu'elle contient au minimum une proportion variable d'éléments wallons. Enfin, au fil des siècles, la langue écrite s'est de plus en plyus rapprochée du francais standard.

What's my point here?

1.People from wallonia really had to learn a NEW language. So, the "you have to speak french" process i was referring to was really, really painful to them, both socially and "linguisticly".
2.you cannot compare 'walloon to french' and 'flemish to dutch'.
AS far as i know, the average dutchman would easily understand the 'flemish dialect' .Ok, there may be subtitles on dutch tv when there's a flemish speaking - like in 'de pfaffs' on NOS -yes, i do watch NOS, surprised, huh?- but the gap between walloon and french is so much bigger than the one between flemish and dutch.

like The CRow said : don't try to compare pears and apples!

Lynx
Jan 27th, 2003, 06:37 PM
I know that, being the oldest here, I also should be the "wisest" like we say in Flemish, and let you have the last word - but I'd rather have it be a word of peace than an insult. So "the farmer, he plowed on".
Josh, I have the impression you just "scan" a post, your mind already made up, not truly reading what is there. Then you have these comebacks with "ignorance" and "propaganda" - while actually some of the stuff you say is not much different from what I have said.

Ignorance and Flemish propaganda. Ayayayayay!! :rolleyes:

1) Walloon is a dialect close to French but most Walloons only spoke that dialect and didn't speak French, just like most Flemings spoke their dialect and not standard Dutch. There has been as much opposition against this process of Frenchisation in Wallonia as in Flanders.
That's pretty much what I said, Josh. The only thing you've left out here is the fact that we had that process Flemish dialect => Dutch a century later; but at the time Walloons had to learn their "standard language" (French), Flemings didn't get to learn Dutch - they had to learn French too. If you do not want to see how that is different, then you're keeping both your eyes firmly shut.

2) Furthermore your definition of Flemings = people who speak Flemish couldn't be more wrong. Historically Flanders has always been a bilingual region, the Flemish elite has ALWAYS spoken French. The Flemish bourgeoisie identified themselves as Flemish even though they spoke French.
There are as much definitions as there are ppl. You don't have to go by mine, but I don't have to go by yours either.
If it's genetics what makes the Fleming for you, then good luck: in that case there are no Flemings left. "Blood and soil" just don't cut it for me. A person of Turkish origin who has as his native language Flemish and who identifies himself as a Fleming IS a Fleming in my eyes. A person who has Flemish parents but does not want to speak Flemish, otoh, is no Fleming in my eyes.
The thing here is: the elite spoke French.
Btw: it's not true that the Flemish elite has ALWAYS spoken French; once, before the founding of Belgium, the Flemish SPEAKING elite fled to the Netherlands, driven away by the Spaniards, if I'm not mistaken. Their coming to Amsterdam made that city a beacon of culture. As far as I know that was the major part of the existing elite then.

3) As to the point of money transfers I'm saying this : we live in the same country so we're supposed to be solidary with eachother. Or is the slogan "Eigen volk eerst" what you are refering to? Besides we poor Flemings are really hurt and limited in our progress by those poor Walloons. :rolleyes:
Hear hear! "Solidarity" - a beautiful thing, I could not agree more. But it takes two to tango - solidarity is not a one way street. In Belgium, it has been a one way street like forever.
Yoohoo - I'm Vlaams Blok now! I thought it was coming to that. Josh - you are thinking in very small boxes indeed. A person who speaks for the Flemish ppl HAS to be a right wing person for you, hasn't he? You simply don't have a box with "Flemish & left wing" on the label. Well, here is news for you: we do exist. We probably vote for the same parties - I bet you vote Green or spa.
But then, maybe you vote extreme left? Pvda - once Amada? That, at least, would explain your dogmatic approach.
"we poor Flemings are really hurt and limited in our progress by those poor Walloons". We were Josh, yes. Didn't you read the part of my post about the shifting of the balance of power?
I bet you would not even THINK of writing such denials about other ppl who were discriminated against. But where your own ppl (?) is concerned you are empathically denying this part of the Belgian past. Why?
Btw: I'm not saying we should not be moving on - we should. For the nth time: I was explaining Flemish sensibilities to ppl who might not know of them nor understand them. I don't know what your agenda is.

4) And the argument of French speakers still not wanting to speak Dutch is indeed dated. I'm talking about the new generation, people of my age, who are doing big efforts to master our language but maybe you're too old to know that.
I refer to per4ever's post for this one. Maybe you'll believe HIM.
With him, I'm asking myself - again! - where you live. I grew up near Brussels and have worked in Wallonia for yrs. Like Per, I think I know what I'm talking about. I don't think you do.
But if you live near Brussels, then you CANNOT NOT know this.

5) Also I'm afraid to say that it's going downwards with the French knowledge of Flemish students. So I'm not so sure about your 1/10 theory.....I agree that there are still more Flemings who can make themselves understood in French than vice versa but the gap is much smaller than you make it look.
My bet stands, though. I gave myself lots of room with my 1/10 assessment. It's probably more in the range of 1/20.
But yes - more and more Flemish ppl do not want to study French as their second language anymore. I wrote that. Is it bad? Maybe. Minboy has made it clear that not many Walloons are prepared to learn Dutch - but of course I knew that. I can even understand it. I'll repeat what I said in my post to him: "But I'm ok with this solution: let's all learn English as a second language, and speak to each other in English. Then we would be, for the very first time, on an equal footing."

6) I do agree though that if you live in a multilingual country you should learn to speak the other language(s) and it's not because one of those languages is spoken by not many people that you shouldn't learn it.
Hear hear. Second that. :) :) :)
You'll be voting Vlaams Blok next! (Yuk) :p :rolleyes:

Lynx
Jan 27th, 2003, 06:38 PM
Per4ever - thanks. :worship:

I grew up near Brussels, so I know what you are talking about.
Once, as a kid, a French speaking shopkeeper let me wait, serving all the other (French speaking) clients first, then making me speak French. I was - what? - eight, maybe. I can still feel the humiliation...

All Flemish shopkeepers in a wide circle around Brussels DID (and DO) speak French, though.

Lynx
Jan 27th, 2003, 06:42 PM
Elizajoey, hi! :D

Dare away - this is not "Belgians only". I have to thank you for taking an interest! :)

To compare the Flemish situation to the aboriginal one is probably going too far - but I don't know much of what happened in Australia.

"... I found myself cheering for Justine, not because she was losing but because of the pro-Kim sentiment and basically the anti-Justine vibe that I got from around me!!!"
Hey - I have no problem with you rooting for the underdog: I often do that myself! :D

"I also notice over here... I dont know about Belgium but Kim is really loved by the media here because even over in Australia- not her homeland, she does a huge amount for charities and stuff over here....."
That's Kim for you! :) She doesn't have to do that, it's how she is... and I do believe that's why she is so widely liked. I know that's why I like her so much.

About marriage: a lot of them don't last nowadays, do they? Still, I am married, and I've rather enjoyed it so far. The difference between being married and living together is mainly one of commitment, imo. You are saying to yourself and your partner and the world: "we belong together." It takes some guts, maybe, and there are drawbacks - but there are advantages too, as proved by Justine! I think it may have brought her rest and a feeling of security. (Might be false... but as long as that is what you feel it's a good thing, I think).

Again: you didn't invade anything, I'm very glad other ppl take an interest.
And I think I understand most of what you said... although you DO have a wandering mind - sometimes it was really hard to keep up... :p

Lynx
Jan 27th, 2003, 06:47 PM
minboy, you've made my day - thank you. :)


I'm really happy you think our culture is interesting. Thank you for saying so!

No, I do not take anything out on you - I thought I made it clear: I LIKE Walloons, a lot. They're warm, welcoming, and funny. (I have a bigger problem with French speaking ppl of Brussels - probably descended from some good "Flemish" stock, according to Josh, and he's probably right there).

Yes, I know about the ppl from France - I often think they still believe French to be the world language. :rolleyes: It once WAS of course - but that has changed.
I'm amazed and grateful to hear that you like Dutch. And you surprised me by saying you watch "De Laatste Show." It must not be easy to follow! I'm ashamed too confess that I hardly watch any French programs anymore - used to do that, but lately I'm much more BBC-oriented...

Aye - of course Walloons are not lazy! :sad: Only spoiled! :p (also kidding :) )

About the economical gap: you may be right about Wallonia, but in Flanders it's rather the other way around. Sure, Hainaut is very poor now, but a part of West-Flanders (around Kortrijk) is quite well off - it has been called the Texas of Flanders...

----------------------------------
About Walloon: seen it before; it looks very exotic when you write it phonetically - but that is also the case for the different Flemish dialects!

I'm not so sure about Walloon being further away from French than Flemish from Dutch - but I'm not going to argue with you about that, I don't know enough. But believe me: a Dutch person would not understand one word of what a West-Fleming was telling him, if the last one spoke his dialect. My wife is from a different part from Flanders than I am - and the first time I met her family I did not understand one syllable of what was being said! I felt very stupid! (and they were laughing at me!)
Much of the different dialects of Flanders have lost a lot of their "foreigness", losing typical words which have been replaced systematically by Dutch words. You may even find more authentic West-Flemish in the North of France, "Frans Vlaanderen" once being a part of Flanders...

Another thing: if we go back to the Middle Ages, then I could show you some Flemish! (But I do think written Walloon may be older.)

I still think Flemish ppl had the rougher end of the deal, minboy. By far. "Et pour les Flamands la même chose".


But if you say the French elite is our mutual enemy, then by all means - let's make a revolution!!
Wallon et Flamands - one cause !! :D :)

WtaTour4Ever
Jan 27th, 2003, 09:03 PM
Well as an "Ignorant American" I have found this topic to be very interesting. I always wondered what the deal was between the two portions of Belgium. I looked it up on encarta.msn.com, but this version is way more interesting.


BTW what are these payments that you refer to Lynx?

Elizajoey
Jan 28th, 2003, 10:57 AM
Umm I'm back again :)

Yeh I agree Lynx that was I was a bit extreme with the comparision... I just see a similarity in it....

although you DO have a wandering mind - sometimes it was really hard to keep up...

:lol: Sorry.... thats why I can never complete a conversation with someone coz of the wondering mind!!!
But it's better then having a mind then doesn't move at all ;)
Thw wandering mind is probably why I'm failing English :)


Because this thread basically turned into a thread about Belgium... Could someone explain to me, your parliamentry system over there... I'm really very curious!!!

You mentioned a post about left and far-left!!! I've gotta say, thats great if you have parties like that..... I find the majority of the parties over here are very much conservative and right wing

Sara

The Crow
Jan 28th, 2003, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by Elizajoey
Because this thread basically turned into a thread about Belgium... Could someone explain to me, your parliamentry system over there... I'm really very curious!!!

You mentioned a post about left and far-left!!! I've gotta say, thats great if you have parties like that..... I find the majority of the parties over here are very much conservative and right wing

Sara

Yep, could someone explain to me our parliamentry system too, cause it's getting way too complicated :o ;)

And we have left and far-left parties, but the extreme-right party is bigger than the left party, so it's very right-wing here too.

minboy
Jan 28th, 2003, 03:15 PM
ELizajoy : i'm gonna try to explain our political system, which is often seen as the most complicated worldwide. here it is :

Belgium is a federal state since 1994( if i'm not mistaken ) which means that

- there is national/federal parliament and also a national/federal executive. YOu also have to know that since 1968 and the 'leuven case' ( back then flemish students of the university of leuven, which is a flemish city, evicted french-speaking student out of this university), political parties are organised on basis of the language, which means that there are a flemish liberal party, a french-speaking liberal party, a flemish socialist party, a french-speaking socialist party, and so on... Before 1968, political parties were 'national', which means there was 1 national liberal party, 1 national socialist party......

-then you have 3 'economic' regions, which are geographic regions. Those are
.flanders
. wallonia
. brussels-capital ( brussels is mostly a french-speaking city ( about 80% ), but is situated in flanders ).

THose regions have their own parliament and their own executives. those are in charge of the economic problems.

then you have 3 cultural communities, which are not defined geographicly, but culturaly. THose are:
-the flemish community
-the french -speaking community
-the german speaking community ( the german-speaking cities being part of Wallonia in geographic terms )

THose communities also have their own parliament and own executive. THey are in charge of the cultural problems, education ( schools, universities,...) and the health system. SO, basically, they take care of everything that relates to individuals.

AS you can see, regions and communities do not correspond to each other. The german speakers are answerable to the 'wallon region' when it regards the economic, while they are answerable to the german-speaking community when it regards culture and education. French speaking people from brussels are answerable to the 'brussels-capital region' when it regards the economic, while they are answerable to the french-speaking community when it regards culture and eduction, and so on....


one more thing : Flemish parties decided to gather the economic and cultural prerogatives into 1 parliament and 1 executive. Still, in the constitution, economic regions and cultural communities are clearly divided.

I hope it helps. THis was just a summary. THings are actually much more complicated than this.

Maybe if you could see a political map of belgium, you would understand it better. In case someone has a link....

Lynx
Jan 28th, 2003, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by WtaTour4Ever
... BTW what are these payments that you refer to Lynx? :eek: :eek: :eek:

WtaTour4Ever, you have no idea what you ask! Politicians and financial experts are not agreeing on this, yet - and Josh might come back... :fearful:

Well, I'm gonna over-oversimplify again, and resignedly wait till Josh chops my head off - because my neck will be a mile out there.
Here we go:


60% of the Belgian population speaks Dutch
39.25 % speaks French
.75% speaks German

Since some time now (10 yrs? who is counting...) we have limited self-governement in Belgium. (How that is done is very, very complicated - we have something like five governements plus different councils and please don't ask.) But it means that Flanders, Wallonia, the Brussels region (and the German part? I don't know :sad: ) have a say about some things which concerns them (but not all things: there are matters which still are decided by the federal governement).

Flanders would want to have more say in all matters - most Flemish parties would like to manage our own social security, for instance. The French speaking community (and a part of the left-wing parties of Flanders) is opposing this. The reasons are clear: if the social security system would become a matter of the communities rather than the federal state, then the French speaking part of Belgium would receive considerably less money than they are receiving now.

It is not always clear why social security is costing so much more in the French speaking part of Belgium. For one thing, there is more unemployment. Flanders paying its share to fight unemployment in Wallonia might be seen as solidarity, and it is... but one should also note that the Walloon governement has never done as much as the Flemish one to save money... while the state Belgium had this huge debts. (It is, I think, changing now, but the Walloon socialist party was very powerful in Wallonia for a very long time... and they kept ppl happy with a generous "social" policy, financed with "federal" money.)

There is also the weird fact that a French speaking patient seems to cost a lot more than a Flemish one with the same ailment. That doesn't sit well with the majority of Flemings. Our (very well built out) social security system is getting more and more expensive, because our population is getting older and because the medical science is advancing and requires heaps of money for every step forward (new scanners for instance). The whole is paid for by taxes, of course. Most Flemings (including me) don't understand why we should pay more for a French speaking patient: if we were allowed to manage our social security ourselves, we could do more for our ppl.
The French speaking ppl would seem to lose. But whatever some may say: there IS and certainly HAS been a tendency in French-Belgium to spend money rather lavishly on social security items (and on education), as if it isn't theirs. But then, it isn't !

That is not solidarity anymore; not in my book.


In the past, before this limited self-governement, things have been worse still. Wallonia would block public works that Flanders needed, unless the same amount of money was spent on them. It seems like there were always "compensations". Call me prejudiced and ignorant here, but as far as I know, those "blockades" and "compensations" never went the other way.

And every time Flanders gained some self-governement, it payed somehow.
You could say we are buying the right to decide for ourselves... and the prices are high.



Note: Ah, I see meanwhile minboy has addressed the problem of our governement. I'm very glad he did. I always get sooo confused. ;) :) :D

(I hope he thinks I gave a fair description of the so called "money transfers", although his outlook will probably be different...)

minboy
Jan 28th, 2003, 04:05 PM
yes, my outlook is indeed very different. Im not going to post my arguments here, because i know that i won't convince you anyway.

just one word : solidarity! We walloons could get rid of the Hainaut/henegouw and being more rich, but we feel like we must be 'solidaire' with them (even if those blocks are very, i mean VERY poor. I didn't realize it until i went to charleroi about 3 months ago. What a dark and poor city! When i came back in my home town -liège/luik -, i felt like it was Monaco!!! I really did! )

Lynx
Jan 28th, 2003, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by The Crow
... And we have left and far-left parties, but the extreme-right party is bigger than the left party, so it's very right-wing here too. The Crow - that is not totally true. :o :o :o
Yes, you are right: extreme right was slightly bigger than one of the left parties (entirely too big for my peace of mind)... but all in all the left is still much stronger!

Results of the elections of 1999:

VLD (a party slightly right of the center): 22.6 %
CVP (a party which considers itself at the center): 22.0
Vlaams Blok (extreme right): 15.3 %
Spa (socialists, left of the center): 15.0 %
Agalev (green party, leftish): 11.0 %
VU/ID (Flemish party which since exploded in a left and right part): 8.8 %

Since the Berlin Wall fell, the extreme left doesn't get enough votes anymore to play any part in Belgian politics. The "official" communist party ceased to exist; others are still there though.

I would say it's not too right-wing yet, thank heavens! :)

Lynx
Jan 28th, 2003, 04:28 PM
And this, of course, are only the results of Flanders.

In the French speaking part of Belgium there is no clear right wing party at the moment. The reason of the "succes" of extreme right in Flanders is partly due to the fact that they use Flemish issues to gain votes. :( :sad:

It has always sadden me that Flemish left parties never address the Flemish issues, leaving those to politicians of the right, giving Flemings a bad name. :(

gentenaire
Jan 28th, 2003, 04:36 PM
I have to agree with both sides here.

Lynx and per4ever are right when they say that too many Walloons still don't speak Flemish, even if it would be better if they did. One of my sister's colleagues is from Wallonia. He's a hardworking guy but he only speaks French! This is preventing him from having a decent career. It's in international company, situated in Flanders, so if you don't know English, you can't get far. It's annoying for my sister and her boss, etc. that they have to write their e-mails in English AND French so that this one person would understand. This guy has had the same position for the longest time, he can't grow because he simply can't communicate properly with the rest.

Also, I'm proud of the Flemish culture, I love the Flemish language and I'm annoyed that if you dare say this, you're branded as Vlaams Blok.

My parents were one of the many students who protested in Leuven in the 60's to make this Uni Flemish. My parents and grandparents have made me realise how lucky I am that I got to be educated in my own language! We shouldn't take it for granted. You should have heard the arguments of some of the French speaking people "The Dutch language wasn't elevated enough, Dutch at a University? Perish the thought!!"

On the other hand, I don't think Kim's French is that good;) And I agree with Minboy that it's easier for us to learn English because of TV, movies, etc.

The Crow
Jan 28th, 2003, 04:39 PM
Uhm, Lynx, I try to keep it simple, so imo you have extreme right, center right, center, center left, extreme left. Spa is center left, VB is extreme right, hence extreme right more votes than center left. But I know what you mean.

Lynx
Jan 28th, 2003, 04:43 PM
Crow - what is Agalev then? :confused:
Imo, it's center left also?

Hazy
Jan 28th, 2003, 04:47 PM
Henin is being ignored, even in her own thread!

Josh
Jan 28th, 2003, 04:52 PM
Lynx, I have found some more erros and things I don't agree with in your posts but I'm not gonna bother replying anymore. This takes too much time and we simply disagree too much lol.

I just wanna say this as my last reply :

I do have a problem with certain Flemish nationalists, especially those who complain about money transfers and whine about people not speaking Dutch. To me that is the expression of an insecure little region that is still stuck up with the "harm" that has been done to it decades or centuries ago. I have this image of Flanders being a prosperous region that looks at the future, a confident region that is not afraid to take challenges. Sadly I see that Flanders (or at least a part) is still showing self-pitiness and is always on the defensive out of fear that those damn French speakers might attack it (not to be taken literally).

Yes Flanders has been treated badly in the past but over the years the Flemish movement has slowly evolved to an organisation which has built a solid bunker and doesn't come out of it because it rather wants to be amongst itself than to be shared with the rest of the world.

PS : sorry for calling your posts ignorant :)

The Crow
Jan 28th, 2003, 05:27 PM
Lynx, Agalev is getting more and more to extreme left imo. OK, maybe between center left and extreme left ;)

lmao@ Hazy

Brαm
Jan 28th, 2003, 05:48 PM
So true, Hazy, so true... :(:(:(

SJW
Jan 28th, 2003, 06:11 PM
haha i cant really say i like Henin so.....

IM GLAD! :D

GO Clijsters! (she is the better Belgian anyway-younger, more talented, higher-ranked, more titles [i think])

Elizajoey
Jan 29th, 2003, 05:01 AM
This thread has been really interesting....

Now I'm just taking this on what I've read about Belgium and the feelings I get from this thread...

But why is there a federal state of Belgium if there are all the problems with the different languages and cultures....

Coz isn't Belgium the only country with two different official languages of the country.... The only other one i can think of is Canada but it is mainly English speaking apart from the Quebec province...

Sara

Elizajoey
Jan 29th, 2003, 05:01 AM
This thread has been really interesting....

Now I'm just taking this on what I've read about Belgium and the feelings I get from this thread...

But why is there a federal state of Belgium if there are all the problems with the different languages and cultures....

Coz isn't Belgium the only country with two different official languages of the country.... The only other one i can think of is Canada but it is mainly English speaking apart from the Quebec province...

Sara

Hazy LOL!!! Well I we do mention her a bit ;)

disposablehero
Jan 29th, 2003, 05:31 AM
Originally posted by Elizajoey
This thread has been really interesting....

Now I'm just taking this on what I've read about Belgium and the feelings I get from this thread...

But why is there a federal state of Belgium if there are all the problems with the different languages and cultures....

Coz isn't Belgium the only country with two different official languages of the country.... The only other one i can think of is Canada but it is mainly English speaking apart from the Quebec province...

Sara

The Quebec province is rather large, like 2/3 the population of Belgium, for example.

And what about Switzerland?

Blogger Dives
Jan 29th, 2003, 05:38 AM
Yes Quebec in Canada, most know both English and French. I haven't heard of any rows between the sides there... and I've visited Montreal a few times in the past.

In Switzerland you have certain areas that speak: German, Swiss-German, Italian, and French.

Also in Italy: Some areas speak only Italian but the closer to the north most know German and French.

From what I was told in another thread, Belguim has: Dutch, French and German.

power26
Jan 29th, 2003, 06:00 AM
I like the Belgian girls but let's face it - this has been the WILLIAMS SHOW ALL THE WAY. Juju is definitely the best in single backhand (her movement is a combination of grace, poetry, power and intimidation). But she needs to put more power in all of her other games just to beat the Williams. I agree that Kim right now is a bit on edge being the one to give a threat to the Williams, but even she can not do it. I am still seeing Lindsay as the one that can really challenge the sisters. I trust she becomes healthy this year.


V IS FOR VENUS' VENOM!
S IS FOR SERENA'S SUPREMACY!
W IS FOR WINNERS.....WINNERS....WINNERS....WINNERS......

tfannis
Jan 29th, 2003, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by Blogger Dives
Yes Quebec in Canada, most know both English and French. I haven't heard of any rows between the sides there... and I've visited Montreal a few times in the past.

In Switzerland you have certain areas that speak: German, Swiss-German, Italian, and French.

Also in Italy: Some areas speak only Italian but the closer to the north most know German and French.

From what I was told in another thread, Belguim has: Dutch, French and German.

Hey :wavey:

You know...allthough there's a lot of discussion and there are lots of problems concerning languageblah here in Belgium...you can't really talk about rows you know. I live just...and with just I mean at two metres from it... at the border between the French and Dutch speaking part and I can assure you, we do get along very well here :D It's true that there are some communication problems in Brussels and the villages around...but really...these problems are just luxury probs. It's sad that most Belgians don't seeze this opportunity to be at least bilingual (trilingual as we involve English in this) and politics here in Belgium are really complicated...but you know..we live in a very wealthy country :) Flemings and Walloons never fight :eek: or anything....the worst thing that ever happened to me (and I live in the middle of it ;)) was that time i was called "Sale Flamand" (Dirty Fleming) because I ordered my food in Flemish in a restaurant in Brussels. Well...I had a good laugh and repeated my order in Flemish yet again :angel: