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CHOCO
Jan 14th, 2003, 10:34 PM
http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/14/bush.poll/vstory.bush.jpg
A new poll finds that Americans have faith in President Bush's personal strengths, but doubts about some of his policies.


Poll: Bush's job approval rating drops
President still wins high marks on national defense
Tuesday, January 14, 2003 Posted: 3:23 PM EST (2023 GMT)


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush, though still backed by a majority of Americans, finds himself with the lowest job approval rating since the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, according to a CNN/USA TODAY/Gallup poll, which points to falling confidence in his handling of world affairs and a perception that his economic policies favor the rich.

Bush's job approval rating is 58 percent, a five-point decline since last week and the first time it has dipped below 60 percent since the terrorist attacks.

Still, the president gets high marks for leadership, vision and his ability to make hard decisions. His handling of national defense wins approval from more than six in 10 Americans.

The midterm poll -- based on telephone interviews with 1,002 adult Americans January 10 -12 -- comes at a tricky time for Bush. The administration is pitching a roughly $670 billion, 10-year economic plan to Congress, while it's trying to hold together an international coalition against Iraq's Saddam Hussein and deal with a nuclear standoff with North Korea.

At the same time, Democratic contenders are entering the 2004 ring, criticizing Bush for his handling of the economy, questioning the success of the war on terrorism and sounding a familiar refrain -- that the administration is too cozy with corporate America.

The poll found that 53 percent of respondents approve of how Bush is handling world affairs -- a drop since last week when the number was 60 percent.

The poll numbers suggest the second half of Bush's term could be more of a challenge than his immediate post 9/11 popularity might have indicated.

Asked whether they would support Bush if he runs for re-election in 2004, one-third of the respondents said they would definitely vote for him, while another third said they would definitely vote against him. One-third described themselves as undecided.

And in what could be a key finding for the administration, more respondents identified the economy as a decisive issue at the polls compared to terrorism, 53 percent to 32 percent. And 56 percent of those polled say they believe that Bush generally favors the rich.

That point is not likely to be lost on Bush. He saw his father's popularity after the Persian Gulf War evaporate as the economy soured, a slide that ultimately led to his ouster from the White House when he was defeated by Bill Clinton in 1992.

The president still enjoys strong support from Americans when it comes to their evaluation of his personal strengths. For example, 67 percent of those polled say Bush brought dignity back to the White House and 65 percent said he inspires confidence.

The poll has a sampling error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.

decemberlove
Jan 14th, 2003, 11:25 PM
americans are so fucking stupid.

unless you are wealthy and white... there is no reason to like Bush. cos really, what good has he done?


53%. ha. i hope they just surveyed white, rich men.

VSFan1 aka Joshua L.
Jan 15th, 2003, 12:26 AM
You know, I'm no fan of Bush, but he's done an okay job as prez.....so get off our back.

evadafan
Jan 15th, 2003, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by decemberlove
americans are so fucking stupid.

unless you are wealthy and white... there is no reason to like Bush. cos really, what good has he done?


53%. ha. i hope they just surveyed white, rich men.

That was a very offensive and racist post.


BTW, considering the circumstances I think Bush has done a great job.

decemberlove
Jan 15th, 2003, 12:35 AM
oh yeah...
please tell me what he has done besides ruin our environment, give the wealthy more money, and cut our freedoms our slowly.

enlighten me.

decemberlove
Jan 15th, 2003, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by evadafan
That was a very offensive and racist post.


BTW, considering the circumstances I think Bush has done a great job.

how and to whom is it racist and offensive?

and please, give me examples of his great job.

LucasArg
Jan 15th, 2003, 12:41 AM
Originally posted by evadafan
BTW, considering the circumstances I think Bush has done a great job.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

evadafan
Jan 15th, 2003, 12:49 AM
1. Please tell me how he has ruined the environment, I cannot think of any cases.

2. He (and the Repubs and many Dems in Congress) never gave the rich any money. A tax cut is not giving someone money, it is letting someone keep more of what they rightfully have earned.

3. "cut our freedoms our slowly"- Now I'm not sure what that means or what language you are speaking there, but I think we are doing pretty good considering the horrendous attacks on our homeland

4. The post was racist because you say only whites would support Bush as if all whites or all blacks for that matter feel the same way on this. You're post also insinuates that the whites are stupid, because in your eyes they are the ones supporting Bush.

decemberlove
Jan 15th, 2003, 01:32 AM
1. ruined, not quite yet. ruining, YES.
let's see...
-he's overturned MANY clinton admin policies that were there to protect the environment. [lifted the ban of snowmobiling in yellowstone, is allowing drilling/mining in national & state parks, the cutting down of MORE trees in once protected areas just to satisfy the debt he owes to the paper companies who supplied him money for his campaign] if you want links to articles... let me know
-closing of office to protect the Everglades... rolling back provisions onthe Clean Air Act, etc.
-who's the head of the EPA? the one and only ultimate **** Christie Whitman. the one who allowed dumping on my jersey shore. yeah. she really cares about the environment.
-he just recently blocked the EPA from issuing a warning about asbestos in homes.
... i can go on if you want, just let me know...

2. of course many Rs and Ds approved of his taxcuts... cos they would all benefit from these cuts. why? cos theyre all wealthy. whats the point of taxcuts? to help our weak economy. whats the point of Bushs taxcuts? to help ease the taxes that the rich pay. god forbid they can't afford 10 servants.

3. this is mainly a reference to the spying program post 9.11... USA Patriot Act, i believe... makes it easier to conduct searches, etc. another.. listening in on client-lawyer conversations even if the person isnt being charged with any crime... just detained.

4. its obvious Bush is racist. he has [pre-9.11] had colin powell skip out on international conferences about racism... has asked the president of Brazil if there were any blacks in the country.. blah blah blah. dont cry reverse racism on me.

but it was a bit wrong of me, i apologize... i should've said just wealthy and a male...

evadafan
Jan 15th, 2003, 01:53 AM
Lies, innuendo, and unsubstantiated theory

Celeste
Jan 15th, 2003, 01:58 AM
Puhleez. Like I'm supposed to vote for that stiff Joe Leiberman, or even Gephardt. I agree, Bush isn't particularly good, who the hell else do we have? As a white chick married to a wealthy white dude, I'm pissed about our investments, but aside from that, I'm ok with Bush. Plus, last quarter, out stocks and all recovered.....a little....just a little. It's the ebb and flow of the economy. Do any of you guys actually have portfolios? I didn't think so. Saddam is terrible, I'm glad we might get rid of him. Bush is better than all those chicken shit wimps ruling countries elsewhere who don't do a damn thing besides get walked all over. I don't know about you, but I really don't want to get on a plane and get flown into a fucking building or have my throat cut. If it takes a war overseas to stop it, well, so be it. Call me a bitch, but I have my priorities. I pay a shitload in taxes (unlike I imagine most of you.....see what it's like to have 1/3 or more taken from your paycheck and get little in return). I might as well get something out of it!

CHOCO
Jan 15th, 2003, 01:14 PM
:)

Beat
Jan 15th, 2003, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by Celeste
Bush is better than all those chicken shit wimps ruling countries elsewhere who don't do a damn thing besides get walked all over. I don't know about you, but I really don't want to get on a plane and get flown into a fucking building or have my throat cut. If it takes a war overseas to stop it, well, so be it.

ouch, ouch and double-ouch.
i guess you got EXACTLY the president you deserve.

Beat
Jan 15th, 2003, 01:20 PM
oh, and evadafan, you lost. :p
decemberlove has arguments, you don't.

Barrie_Dude
Jan 15th, 2003, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by decemberlove
oh yeah...
please tell me what he has done besides ruin our environment, give the wealthy more money, and cut our freedoms our slowly.

enlighten me.

Well at least he's done something othaer than bang interns in the oval office!

spokenword73
Jan 16th, 2003, 03:13 AM
"Inspires confidence"?? The man can barely speak a sentence. Seems like other people are putting words in his mouth. And now he's going to file a brief against affirmative action?? what's to like?

evadafan
Jan 16th, 2003, 04:42 AM
Decemberlove,

My point was you have not shown any evidence that Bush is harming the environment. You have only stated that his PROPOSALS will cause harm to the environment. That is your OPINION. This is not proof of harm.

Many, including leading scientists, would argue that things like the Clean Air Act updates will work to improve air quality. Not everything is achieved through government regulation kiddo.

Halardfan
Jan 16th, 2003, 03:37 PM
I won't sign up to any broad anti-American feeling but anti-Bush?

Where do I sign? :)

Its Powell I feel sorry for, a decent man surrounded by scumbags of varying degree...

But Bush is a fool. Its as clear as day.

Here's a few reasons why...

1. By western standards he is of the far-right.

2. Has little regard for international treaties, yet demands everyone else should abide by them.

3. Simplistic good v evil view of the world belongs in the movies, not reality. Issues are only rarely neatly black and white.

4. Has no genuine concern for the wider world i.e that bit outside Texas.

5. IQ of around 62.

6. Never trust a man whose eyes are too close together. Or one who looks like a chimp. :)

7. Ultra Social Conservative.

8. Friend to the wealthy, privilged and crooked.

9. Is a git.

10. Helps bring world to brink of WW3 with North Korea, then blames Clinton for it! :D

11. Lays waste to the economy and then blames Clinton for it! :D

12. Marches headlong into war in Iraq and blames Clinton for it! :D

13. Ignores fact that Ronnie Reagan gave evil Saddam most his weapons/checmical materials in the first place, and turned a blind eye to his mass murder.

14. Fox News likes him.

15. Chuck Norris likes him.

16. Has that Reaganesque 'vacant idiot' stare.

17. Pro-Gun.

18. Is a Tauziat fan. I bet. ;)

Some things in the universe just ARE. Winona Ryder IS beautiful, Niagara Falls IS awe inspiring, and GW IS a foolish idiot. Its his role.

Barrie_Dude
Jan 16th, 2003, 06:32 PM
And, Chris, other than the meaningless rhetoric of a leftist monkey, can you prove what you say? "Left The Enviroment in Ruins"? How So? When? Where?
"Has Little Regard For Treaties"? What Treaties has he broken? And How?
"Helps Bring World To Brink Of WW3 With Korea, and Than Blames Clinton For It"? How Is Korea His Fault? And When Did He Blame Clinton?
"Friend To The Wealthy, Priveledged And Crtooked"? Hmmmmm.... Sounds Much Like Clinton To Me!
"Lays Waste To The Economy"? Are You Aware That The Economy Was Tanking In The Last Year Or So Of Clintons Administration And 9/11 Did Not Help Matters Much. How, Exactly, Is This Bushs Fault?

Much of what you say makes no sense whatsoever. It is Empty Rhetoric! If and when you can make an Intelligent Argument, Than Perhaps Someone will take you seriosly! Until Than, I suggest that you do your homework. You so obviously haven't!

Halardfan
Jan 16th, 2003, 10:35 PM
According to those nice people at Fox News(!) Bush's staff made it explicitly clear that they believed Clinton was to blame for the Korean crisis...thansk to his policy of a few years back.

Plus I never mentioned what you said about the environment...though it is obvious that Bush is bad news on the issue.

As regards treaties...Bush had been obstructive and destructive on issues as wide ranging as the environment, poverty, and the ABM treaty.

He has offered us no hope for a better world, only one torn by endless war, out of control pollution and famine on a epic scale.

All the Best,
Chris Ba. Leftist Monkey. :)

Hurley
Jan 16th, 2003, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by Barrie_Dude
Well at least he's done something othaer than bang interns in the oval office!

And which President has done only that, pray tell?

ys
Jan 16th, 2003, 11:22 PM
I don't like Bush, really. But even less I like people insulting someone who is doing the job. The same very people were doing the same when Clinton was President, and they will be doing the same with any other President, because it is a habit - of kicking someone who actually can't reply. A bit cowardly, don't you think?

Some people think that absolute non-conformism is cool, is a way to go. Those people rarely succeed at doing anything useful themselves. They are only good at useless critisizing of what other are doing..

Halardfan
Jan 17th, 2003, 09:43 AM
In my case at any rate, I was generally one of Clinton's defenders...because I much prefered him to GW.

Likewise, some of the people defending Bush, were front and centre in the rabid Clinton witchhunt...

What Bush does can have a fundemental effect on my life and the lives of people I care about...for that reason alone, Im entitled to pour scorn on him, when I believe that on issue after issue is hoplessly wrong.

White Stripes
Jan 17th, 2003, 01:13 PM
Do you know these pics?

Barrie_Dude
Jan 17th, 2003, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by Hurley
And which President has done only that, pray tell? Bill Clinton

Barrie_Dude
Jan 17th, 2003, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by Chris Ba
In my case at any rate, I was generally one of Clinton's defenders...because I much prefered him to GW.

Likewise, some of the people defending Bush, were front and centre in the rabid Clinton witchhunt...

What Bush does can have a fundemental effect on my life and the lives of people I care about...for that reason alone, Im entitled to pour scorn on him, when I believe that on issue after issue is hoplessly wrong.

But you still haven't offered anything more than rhetoric! No Specifics about the economy,or the enviroment. In fact, you are offering nothing at all! I wonder if you have anything to go on, or if you are just spouting words. Put some thought into this before you make wild accusations. I fully believe that if you did some research, and opened your mind to learning, you would find out that the reality of the situation is not anywhere near as dire as you seem to think.

Halardfan
Jan 17th, 2003, 10:27 PM
You are right of course...we are not under threat of war in Korea, in Iraq, or any other evil country that takes Bush's fancy. Everything is going great.

He hasn't gone against even his best mate Blair in regards to environmental issues and issues facing the third world.

He hasn't gone ahead with Missile Defence over the objections of all manner of countires, in defiance of treaty...

He hasnt sought to clamp down on progressive affirmative action policies...

He hasn't pushed tax cuts that grossly favour the wealthiest...while his countries poorest suffer under a Public health care system out-ranked by Cuba's...

In fact the man is nothing but a charming, smart, good looking, man of peace who is just the man I'd chose to lead us in this wonderful new century...he's great. I love him very very much. Woo. He is just super.

Barrie_Dude
Jan 18th, 2003, 11:14 PM
You are doing better, but you still aren't getting it are you? Have you been listening? He is not against affirmative action, persay, it is the quota system that he does not like! Besides, the way affirmative action is applied today, it is in itself, racist!
And, so far as I know, he has not gone ahead with a missle defense system.
I presume that you are talking about the Kyoto Accord when you speak of the enviroment, but then that accord is about worthless. And it never applied to third world countries and, I don't believe that China, India or several other countries have ever signed on. It just won't work!
And the public health system is his fault now? As if there ever has been one in the USA! You can blame 43 other Presidents for that as much as you can blame him! As far as Cuba goes, if you had a life threatning illness, would you rather be in Cuba or the States?
IIf we are going to war in Iraq, that is at Mr Sadam Hussiens discretion. You better be glad that someone stands up to despots like that, otherwise they would rule the world! Take a look at Hitler! If the States had not gone to war, the Nazi's would be in charge! And as far as Korea goes, we are not anywhere near a war, yet. But I don't see that you are blaming Korea! Don't you think that their leader bear any responsibility for what is happening? Are these Despots supposed to have nuculer weapons and do whatever they want? Are you willing to put weapons in the hands of every nutcase in the world? Course, I don't guess it matters until these nuts show up in your backyard than you are going to want someone like George Bush to save you! The problem with you is that in theory, your ideals are great, you don't have any concept of how the world works! It's a hard, mean world out there.

decemberlove
Jan 19th, 2003, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by Barrie_Dude
But you still haven't offered anything more than rhetoric! No Specifics about the economy,or the enviroment. In fact, you are offering nothing at all! I wonder if you have anything to go on, or if you are just spouting words. Put some thought into this before you make wild accusations. I fully believe that if you did some research, and opened your mind to learning, you would find out that the reality of the situation is not anywhere near as dire as you seem to think.

that's ironic... cos neither have you.

OH YEAH! how could i forget... "Well at least he's done something othaer than bang interns in the oval office!"

REAL FUCKING INTELLIGENT

seems to me the "lefties" in this thread have provided a lot more information than all you conservatives.

read my above post on information about Bush's wrong doings [environmentally speaking]... much more than just the Kyoto Accord... MUCH MORE


Originally posted by Barrie_Dude

Much of what you say makes no sense whatsoever. It is Empty Rhetoric! If and when you can make an Intelligent Argument, Than Perhaps Someone will take you seriosly! Until Than, I suggest that you do your homework. You so obviously haven't!

again... the same can be applied to your supposed "arguments". and i suggest, if you want anyone taking you seriously, to learn proper grammar and spelling.

decemberlove
Jan 19th, 2003, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by Barrie_Dude
You are doing better, but you still aren't getting it are you? Have you been listening? He is not against affirmative action, persay, it is the quota system that he does not like! Besides, the way affirmative action is applied today, it is in itself, racist!
And, so far as I know, he has not gone ahead with a missle defense system.
I presume that you are talking about the Kyoto Accord when you speak of the enviroment, but then that accord is about worthless. And it never applied to third world countries and, I don't believe that China, India or several other countries have ever signed on. It just won't work!
And the public health system is his fault now? As if there ever has been one in the USA! You can blame 43 other Presidents for that as much as you can blame him! As far as Cuba goes, if you had a life threatning illness, would you rather be in Cuba or the States?
IIf we are going to war in Iraq, that is at Mr Sadam Hussiens discretion. You better be glad that someone stands up to despots like that, otherwise they would rule the world! Take a look at Hitler! If the States had not gone to war, the Nazi's would be in charge!

i actually agree with Bush on his stance on affirmative action and i am a minorty myself. i just feel that it IS racist... giving a child points to enter college based on race only seems unfair. if anything, it should be based on their familys income and financial situation.

like i said before, Bush has committed many sins against the environment. his first appointing Whitman [do you even know who she is?] to the EPA [do you even know what that is?]. WHAT A FUCKING JOKE.

WHAT? no comment on his taxcuts. funny
i do agree, the public health system is not Bush's fault. America has a horrible system... Cubas is better. i dont think you should make assumptions about Cuba if you don't know anything about the country. the reason Cuba's people are so destitute is BECAUSE of the US.

where is the parallel between Saddam and Hitler? if anything, Bush is more like Hitler. hard-nosed tactics... world domination. Saddam minds his own business.

And as far as Korea goes, we are not anywhere near a war, yet. But I don't see that you are blaming Korea! Don't you think that their leader bear any responsibility for what is happening? Are these Despots supposed to have nuculer weapons and do whatever they want? Are you willing to put weapons in the hands of every nutcase in the world? Course, I don't guess it matters until these nuts show up in your backyard than you are going to want someone like George Bush to save you! The problem with you is that in theory, your ideals are great, you don't have any concept of how the world works! It's a hard, mean world out there.

hmm... why don't you ask your hero Bush why we aren't preparing to go to war against Korea? N.Korea is a MUCH GREATER THREAT TO THE WORLD than Saddam. Kim has many nuclear weapons and has openly expressed that he is willing to use them.

evadafan
Jan 19th, 2003, 07:03 PM
Tell the people of Kuwait and Israel that Saddam minds his own business. Also, didn't the Saudis express concern that Saddam would invade their country and that is why they have allowed US use of their military bases?

Barrie_Dude
Jan 19th, 2003, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by decemberlove
i actually agree with Bush on his stance on affirmative action and i am a minorty myself. i just feel that it IS racist... giving a child points to enter college based on race only seems unfair. if anything, it should be based on their familys income and financial situation.

like i said before, Bush has committed many sins against the environment. his first appointing Whitman [do you even know who she is?] to the EPA [do you even know what that is?]. WHAT A FUCKING JOKE.

WHAT? no comment on his taxcuts. funny
i do agree, the public health system is not Bush's fault. America has a horrible system... Cubas is better. i dont think you should make assumptions about Cuba if you don't know anything about the country. the reason Cuba's people are so destitute is BECAUSE of the US.

where is the parallel between Saddam and Hitler? if anything, Bush is more like Hitler. hard-nosed tactics... world domination. Saddam minds his own business.



hmm... why don't you ask your hero Bush why we aren't preparing to go to war against Korea? N.Korea is a MUCH GREATER THREAT TO THE WORLD than Saddam. Kim has many nuclear weapons and has openly expressed that he is willing to use them.

Well, as far as his taxcuts go, I do think he needs to go further. I can understand, for instance, yhe taxcut on divedends as to spur investment, but I really think he needs to sut payroll taxes to help create more jobs, and income taxes for the middle class.

In so far as Ms. Whitman goes, can you tell me one thing that she has done to harm the enviroment? And be specific.

As far as Cuba goes, a large percentage of Cuba's population were destitute long before Castro and back when the USA had normal relations with Cuba. So, you really need to do your homework on that score. Though, I do believe that the US needs to change their ploicy towrds Cuba. The only reason why they don't is because of political pressure from Cuban exiles in South Florida. As far as Bush/Hitler. not even close!!!! Is Bush guilty of "Ethnic Cleansing"? No Way! Was Hitler? Yes! Sadam? Yes! (ie: the Kurds. the Shi ites) And with the extra added bonus of paying the families of the suicide bombers in Isreal! So, Sadam is a definite threat to the region.

As far as North Korea goes, at least we have the Russians and the Chinese to add pressure there as North Korea is more of a regional threat and, thus, a threat to China, Russia, and Japan than they are to the USA at this point.

Halardfan
Jan 19th, 2003, 10:22 PM
Mr Dude...

As far as missile defence goes, I guess your not up with developments...Bush has officially asked Britain for permission to expand its facilities in the UK, for use in a missile defence system....the Brit government, gutless as it is at the moment says it is minded to give the go ahead.

You ask...

"Are you willing to put weapons in the hands of every nutcase in the world?"

My answer is no...but that is EXACTLY what Reagan did with Iraq, and what we in the west do on a regular basis...selling arms around the world with little discrimination, then paying for it later...it happenend with Bin Laden, and in Iraq.

What do the right says about cosying up to the monsterous Saddam and Bin Laden in the 80's???

Who are we giving arms to TODAY, who will be the villians of the month TOMORROW?

As to health care...if I were wealthy I would chose the US...but if I were poor, Cuba no question...the British government even sent experts to Cuba to see what they could learn from how it was run! The statistics are clear on this.

With regards to Kyoto...the consensus in the world was that it was a flawed agreement that only chipped away at a massive problem, but that it marked a vital first step. Bush was entirely dismissive of the vast majority of world opinion...Blair pratically BEGGED his 'friend' to reconsdier but to no avail.

Returning the whole concept of war etc...Im not a pacifist...with some reluctance, I was in favour of action in Afghanistan, it had to be done...equally I have no problem in regrding the likes of Saddam as utterly evil, and we would be weel rid of him...my key problem with the good v evil scenario painted by GW...is that I have a hard time regarding him and as cronies as good, or chamions of virtue...is Dick Cheney a good man? Rumsfeld? Bush himself?

Powell is the only member of the team who could be described as a good man. The rest are despicable crooks. :)

Barrie_Dude
Jan 19th, 2003, 11:35 PM
Well, the general opinion is that Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeild, and Condeliza Roce are all good people and very well respected among circles in Washington. There may be a lot of crooks in Washington, but all the crooks in Washington are not Republican. I can make a list of Democrats that are crooks as well. The most famous of all would be Joe Kennedy and his sons John, Bobby, and Ted.
At This Point There Is No Missle Defense System. So don't count your chickens yet. Until there is one.......
I don't believe that the Cuban health care system is all that great! I'd prefer to be in Canada. If it's all that great in Cuba, how come there are so many coming to the USA every year? Every day, almost, the Coast Guard is finding more Cubans trying to get to the USA.
Yes, the States helped Iraq during the Iraq/Iran conflict. But, as I recall, Iran was the more imedeate threat at the time? Or, do you not recall the Iran Hostages or the Ayotollah? Helping Iraq was the lesser of two evils.Please do your homework.
We never, ever cozied up to Bin Laden.
Kyoto Sucks, mainly because it penalized the USA more than anyone and would have cost a great many jobs here. Now, you complain about the economy on one hand, but you want to penalize American buisness and put Americans out of work.

Barrie_Dude
Jan 20th, 2003, 12:54 AM
My thing here is not to change anyone's mind, per say, but to get ya'all to do your homework. It is something I learned to do in regards to current events in High School. I was bleessed with a teacher that punded into us to "Think"! It's not enough to believe something but you have to know why! And always do a little research. If you listen to the news (And it matters not if it's CNN, The BBC, CBC, or whatever) yoou are only getting small soundbites of information. The issues that we are dealing with here are alot more complex than first glance and you will never get the whole story in the papers or on TV, or radio! It isn't a case of bias, it's just there is not time or space. There are liberals and conservatives. People on both sides of the coin, but the truth is somewhere in the middle. And do not generalize!! Just becuase someone is Republican or Conservative does not make them a bad person. It's just the same as because someone is gay, does not make them a bad person. The problem is that there are too many labels out there, and we as a society are quick to label people. Than we judge them, not for the kind of person they are, but for what our opinion of the label is. Basically, it is much like the homophobic; it is something borne of ignorance not of actual fact.

decemberlove
Jan 20th, 2003, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by Barrie_Dude

We never, ever cozied up to Bin Laden.


Originally posted by Barrie_Dude
Please do your homework.

PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH.

and don't tell me to do my homework when it comes to Cuba. its a fascination of mine and not only have a read up on the subject... i also have personal accounts of what the situation is like considering half of my family lives in Cuba.

... ill be back... too busy to finish.

Barrie_Dude
Jan 20th, 2003, 02:16 AM
Well excuse me! But my point about Cuba is that contions are no different for most poor Cubans now than when the USA had normal relations with Cuba 45 years ago. So to blame the plight of Cubans on American policies towards Cuba is uninformed. And, yes, I have been to Havana! And exactly why are so many Cubans trying to get out of Cuba and come to the States anyway? I also said that the Americans should change their policy towards Cuba! But I guess you never read that as you are not willing to.
And this Bin Laden thing, are you implying that I am wrong about that? Pray tell, when did the Staes ever cozy up to Bin Laden? I mean if you know so very much more than I do, you can tell me that!

Halardfan
Jan 20th, 2003, 12:08 PM
Regarding the "because someone is right wing it doens't make them a bad person thing" its entirely different to being Gay or whatever, becuase you are CHOOSING to sign up to a particular set of values...

I hvae no problem with people who are right of centre (Like Powell, whose politcs are porbbably no different to someone like Lieberman) and I do believe that people shouldn tie themselves down rigidly, one way or another. (Look up threads on Capital punishment or crime and you'll an issue where I lean to the right...) But I am 95 times out of a 100 on the left.

Its a point Ive made before but the political system in the US is a whole step to the right comapared, say, with Britian...Blair is a centrist here, but would be damned as a dangerous socialist were he American, as he is in favour of good quality, free health care, has recently championed RAISING taxes to aid public services, is fiercely anti-gun, is anti-death penalty, has some measure of concern for the environment and the third world...

Were he a Brit Bush would be seen as extreme right, no doubt. Cos he is.

Sam L
Jan 20th, 2003, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by decemberlove
oh yeah...
please tell me what he has done besides ruin our environment, give the wealthy more money, and cut our freedoms our slowly.

enlighten me.

Here! here! I won't put up with anyone disrespecting the environment. Down with Bush! :mad: :mad: :mad:

Sam L
Jan 20th, 2003, 12:24 PM
I didn't see all the little arguements about environment. I could go on, but in short it's true Bush is bad news for the environment. Like decemberlove mentioned, yellowstone with the reopening for roads for snowmobiles, mining in alaska, overturning policies brought in by Clinton. Gosh! :mad:

I couldn't care less about this war, but this war is going to bring down Bush, you watch. I'm going to be watching with glee :lick: