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iluvtrent
Dec 27th, 2002, 03:20 PM
Which player covers the court best, front to back, at net, side to side? The commentators always praise Jennifer for superior coverage, but is Venus (or Serena) better?

gourownway
Dec 27th, 2002, 03:42 PM
When Jen is on she can go side to side better than anyone, but she doesn't go to the net nearly enough, so over all I'm not sure if she has the best coverage.

Serena goes side to side just as well and comes up to the net, but front to back I'm not sure.

Haven't watched Venus enough to say.

Jericho
Dec 27th, 2002, 05:20 PM
venus is the best defensive player imo, she can reach so many balls and return them, serena can so many balls too but sometimes she doesnt return them well enough on the run...venus can make a defensive shot into an offensive shot...

jen is very fast too, but venus is faster and uses her long legs and arms to add to that...

nuriboy
Dec 27th, 2002, 05:24 PM
Best court coverage: Serena.. if you watched the Wimbledon final you know what Iīm talking about. Serena tracked down every ball Venus was sending her way and if you can track down every ball from Venus you must have the best court coverage. Jenny is had good court coverage too!

Dawn Marie
Dec 27th, 2002, 06:13 PM
Venus has the best court coverage and her records over Serena and Jen prove that. If you watched the 2000 US OPEN,the 2000 Wimbeldon, the 2001 US OPEN and 2001 Wimbeldon, you can see that. Also if you watched all her matches with Jennifer you will note that Venus covered the court alot better then Jennifer did against Venus.

TSequoia01
Dec 27th, 2002, 06:23 PM
Best court coverage:

1. Venus
2. Serena
3. Capriati
4. Clijsters

:cool:

nuriboy
Dec 27th, 2002, 06:35 PM
Serena/ Venus are better than Jennifer because their net play are better and they are just plain faster.

NJjeff
Dec 27th, 2002, 06:48 PM
How does net play have anything to do with court coverage? I think Venus covers the court better than Jen because of her speed and reach. I think Jen and Serena are about even in this department.

TSequoia01
Dec 27th, 2002, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by nuriboy
Best court coverage: Serena.. if you watched the Wimbledon final you know what Iīm talking about. Serena tracked down every ball Venus was sending her way and if you can track down every ball from Venus you must have the best court coverage. Jenny is had good court coverage too!

Serena at Wimby was just too good. Serena did not have to track down the shots Venus did. Serena was putting those ferocious shots dead in the corners but had to hit shot after shot to get them pass the awesome defense of Venus. I have never seen any tennis player ever play that well. Serena was just plain awesome! :cool:

nuriboy
Dec 27th, 2002, 07:25 PM
NJjeff....how can Jennifer and Serena be even on court coverage?! Look at L.A.: 42 winners for Serena vs 12 for Capriati. How can they be even when serena has nearly 3 times as much winners as Capriati?! Court coverage means you get to all balls!!

Glenn
Dec 27th, 2002, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by nuriboy
NJjeff....how can Jennifer and Serena be even on court coverage?! Look at L.A.: 42 winners for Serena vs 12 for Capriati. How can they be even when serena has nearly 3 times as much winners as Capriati?! Court coverage means you get to all balls!!

WTF?
The amount of winners you make has nothing to do with your court coverage!
Pistolesi has a great court coverage, and so does Coetzer, but they are lucky just to hit one winner per match! :rolleyes:

nuriboy
Dec 27th, 2002, 07:40 PM
Thatīs crap Glenn! You canīt compare Capriatiīs game to Coetzersī!! Capriati and Serena play the same style and yet Serena hit nearly three times the winners as Capriati. This means that the most points that Capriati won were because serena made an unforced error. So how can Capriati have a better court coverage than Serena when Capriati could barely hit winners against Serena and Serena did this most of the time?!!

Glenn
Dec 27th, 2002, 07:46 PM
I don't know if you saw the match... but Capriati's tactic wasn't to overpower Serena, it was to make her play for the points, that's what works best against Serena too, because she's so erratic.

nuriboy
Dec 27th, 2002, 07:54 PM
I hear that you arenīt a fan of Serena.

Oh I see! A good tactic!! Thatīs why she went a whole year without beating Serena! Me think: Jenny CANīT overpower Serena, because Serena gets to every ball!! Thatīs what me think!Nothing tactic, because if tactic ainīt working you should change it! Or am I mistaken?!

NJjeff
Dec 27th, 2002, 07:56 PM
I agree 100% with Glenn.. winners have nothing to do with it. I am talking only about court coverage. To use 1 match to back your claim without also indicating the unforced error counts doesn't influence me much at all. Plus the high unforced error count of Serena you elude to could be a compliment to Jen's coverage around the court. Jen makes her go for too much, and Serena make errors.

Nuriboy.. no disputes that V&S are the best in the game at the moment, not even the biggest JCap fans. But is it at all possible to you that V&S may not be the best at every element of the game? I only gave my opinion that Jen is an equal to Serena in one area, and you couldn't even accept that!

tennisIlove09
Dec 27th, 2002, 07:57 PM
JenCap has good court coverage, but Venus/Serena are better, IMO. They can just get to shots that no one else can. As for whose better between the sisters? Too close. Serena is FASTER then Venus, but Venus doesn't have to be fast...she has her reach ;)

nuriboy
Dec 27th, 2002, 08:01 PM
I donīt have any problem...the only thing is that Idonīt agree with you. Serena/ Venus get to more balls than everybody else. Nothing to do with being a fan or anything. Facts are facts, NJjeff! And Serena has a better court coverage than Jennifer.

Unforced errors donīt have a thing to do with it. If Serena hits tons of ufeīs against Dokic does that mean Dokic has a great court coverage?!

rhz
Dec 27th, 2002, 08:03 PM
Venus. but Jen is very good in that department also! especially when she is running for the forehand!

NJjeff
Dec 27th, 2002, 08:06 PM
Did I say that?? No... great court coverage is one cause of unforced errors, not the only one.

Serena won 3 GS titles this year, that is a fact. The belief that Serena covers the court better than Jen is your opinion.

gourownway
Dec 27th, 2002, 08:07 PM
Speaking about the match in LA, I had the chance to see it in person, in order for Serena to make the unforced error, Jen had to get the ball back to her....so Jen had to cover the court well to return the ball back....basic logic folks.

I'm not saying one is better than the other, I've already posted my opinion all I'm saying is sometimes you got to give credit where credit is due.

nuriboy
Dec 27th, 2002, 08:15 PM
The same way that you believe that Jenny is better than Serena, I guess NJjeff!

TSequoia01
Dec 27th, 2002, 08:17 PM
I have watched everyone of their matches this year. In fact have all on tape. Serena covers the court better than Jen especially baseline to net. Serena is quicker off the mark. I remember their match at the NASDAQ, where Jen was at net and hit a volley at net and thought the point was over. This would have given her the second set. Serena ran the volley down for a winner. Unbelieveable. You are right nuriboy, the amount of winners is a direct reflection of court coverage. A winner by definition is an unreturned shot where the opponent was unable to get a racquet on a ball. It is awfully difficult to get a ball by Venus or Serena, and Jen as well. Consequently, when you play a Williams, players generally have low winner totals. :cool:

nuriboy
Dec 27th, 2002, 08:20 PM
Thatīs what Iīm talking about TSequoia! Thank you very mutch!! I hope NJjeff and Glenn will read your post.

NJjeff
Dec 27th, 2002, 08:28 PM
Nuriboy... I said I think Jen and Serena are equal!!!

Glenn
Dec 27th, 2002, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by TSequoia01
I have watched everyone of their matches this year. In fact have all on tape. Serena covers the court better than Jen especially baseline to net. Serena is quicker off the mark. I remember their match at the NASDAQ, where Jen was at net and hit a volley at net and thought the point was over. This would have given her the second set. Serena ran the volley down for a winner. Unbelieveable. You are right nuriboy, the amount of winners is a direct reflection of court coverage. A winner by definition is an unreturned shot where the opponent was unable to get a racquet on a ball. It is awfully difficult to get a ball by Venus or Serena, and Jen as well. Consequently, when you play a Williams, players generally have low winner totals. :cool:

What the hell?
The ability to hit winners has absolutely nothing to do with this.
So Serena has more musclepower and hits the ball harder, thus making it harder for people to get to those balls...
Monica Seles hit more winners than Venus Williams at this years French Open, I wouldn't call Monica mobile, would you?

TSequoia01
Dec 27th, 2002, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by Glenn
What the hell?
The ability to hit winners has absolutely nothing to do with this.
So Serena has more musclepower and hits the ball harder, thus making it harder for people to get to those balls...
Monica Seles hit more winners than Venus Williams at this years French Open, I wouldn't call Monica mobile, would you?

You are nitpicking a bit here Glenn. No one ever said it was the only criteria. But to deny it is one of the criterias is denial. The ability to cover the court and deny an opponent a winner is a measurable statistic. As far as Monica hitting more winners than Venus, this is not the issue. How many would she have hit if it was not Venus? :cool:

nuriboy
Dec 27th, 2002, 08:38 PM
So Glenn so now youīre saying that because Serena hits the ball hard thatīs why Capriati canīt reach her balls?! Oh, I see. Capriati is hitting with powderpuff,eh?! Thatīs why Serena can get to her balls?! Whatīs that for crap!!? Capriati hits the ball even hard as serena but serena gets to her balls and Jennifer doesnīt get to Serenaīs balls! End of story: Serena has the better court coverage!!

Glenn
Dec 27th, 2002, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by TSequoia01
You are nitpicking a bit here Glenn. No one ever said it was the only criteria. But to deny it is one of the criterias is denial. The ability to cover the court and deny an opponent a winner is a measurable statistic. As far as Monica hitting more winners than Venus, this is not the issue. How many would she have hit if it was not Venus? :cool:

If it was Jennifer, probably not as much, we don't know, that's the problem.
You can only assume one player is faster than the other, you said it yourself, the amount of winners you get against you isn't the only criteria, so there were other things that were against Jennifer in their match, for example, the fact that Serena hits it harder than Jennifer, that explains the amount of winners Serena was able to hit.

Glenn
Dec 27th, 2002, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by nuriboy
So Glenn so now youīre saying that because Serena hits the ball hard thatīs why Capriati canīt reach her balls?! Oh, I see. Capriati is hitting with powderpuff,eh?! Thatīs why Serena can get to her balls?! Whatīs that for crap!!? Capriati hits the ball even hard as serena but serena gets to her balls and Jennifer doesnīt get to Serenaīs balls! End of story: Serena has the better court coverage!!

OK, that's your opinion.
And obviously Jennifer doesn't hit as hard as Serena, you know that too.

nuriboy
Dec 27th, 2002, 08:54 PM
Ok dan...but in your view Jennifer is the better mover?! Thatīs strange if everybody else/ experts are saying that sisters have the best court coverage!

NJjeff
Dec 27th, 2002, 08:54 PM
That's right Glenn... Serena's forehand, backhand, netplay, mentality, speed, figting ability on the court, fitness....all are better than Jen. Jen doesn't measure up in one area...

Glenn
Dec 27th, 2002, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by NJjeff
That's right Glenn... Serena's forehand, backhand, netplay, mentality, speed, figting ability on the court, fitness....all are better than Jen. Jen doesn't measure up in one area...

I wouldn't say forehand and fighting ability!

JCAP
Dec 27th, 2002, 09:13 PM
Jens forehand not as good, jens got the best forehand !!!

Glenn
Dec 27th, 2002, 09:16 PM
Yea, but I think Jeff was being sarcastic.

nuriboy
Dec 27th, 2002, 09:16 PM
Ok dan NJjeff....we get the point. No need to be sarcastic!! Youīre a Cappy fan, thatīs why she is the best in your opinion. Iīm Serena fan and to me she is the best. I donīt say she is the best everything though. e.g...Cappyīs running forehand is better than Serenaīs. But in court coverage serenaīs better than Cappy.

JCAP
Dec 27th, 2002, 09:21 PM
Nuriboy, i think agree!!

TSequoia01
Dec 27th, 2002, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by NJjeff
That's right Glenn... Serena's forehand, backhand, netplay, mentality, speed, figting ability on the court, fitness....all are better than Jen. Jen doesn't measure up in one area...

Jen has some advantages. She is more consistent off the ground. Her groundies are not better in terms of placement or power but usually more consistent. Jen has been the more consistent also at net although Serena comes to net more. When Jen was defeating Serena, she was tougher mentally. But now I think she is weaker. As far as forehands, Jen's forehand is powerful and consistent but Serena's more versatle and more powerful. :cool:

nuriboy
Dec 27th, 2002, 09:27 PM
I donīt think that Jennifer was defeating because of her mental thoughness. I think last year Serenaīs stamina wasnīt up to par( RG comes to mind) and her play was off. As soon as Serena worked on her stamina and practiced more on her game it was game over for Jennifer.

JCAP
Dec 27th, 2002, 09:32 PM
NO i disagree,it was a mental thing if you ask me!! Jen new Serena was a threat and wen it came to it Jen either couldn't handle the pressure, or she didnt take thos big points, Jen lost all confidence in herself!!

WtaTour4Ever
Dec 27th, 2002, 09:36 PM
According to the commentators both WS have really good court coverage, if Jenny is behind them, it ain't by much. Just from watching her I would have to say that Jenny has really good court coverage, the difference is that she may not always hit an outright winner unlike Serena.

I don't think you can compare only winners as evidence of court coverage b/c we all know that Venus has great court coverage but yet, Serena was smoking Venus most of this year....when they played. So if that theory was to be valid we would have to say that Venus does not have good court coverage...................


Anyway, back to the topic .....I would say that Venus is a better mover than Jennifer, but I would also say that Jennifer....when she is hot.....is in the top5 of the movers on the court imho....and i don't even really like the girl.

TSequoia01
Dec 27th, 2002, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by nuriboy
I donīt think that Jennifer was defeating because of her mental thoughness. I think last year Serenaīs stamina wasnīt up to par( RG comes to mind) and her play was off. As soon as Serena worked on her stamina and practiced more on her game it was game over for Jennifer.

Serena had a fear of losing. She lost matches not only to Jen but to Martina, Monica, and Jen after leading and/or having match points. Most players go through this one time or the other. It was not until the Canadian Open (2001) did she begin to overcome this. After that she had to overcome the phobia that affected her play against Venus. But I do agree, at times Serena was not in her optimum fitness. She has said as much. But remember Serena hates to lose. Richard said losing to Serena is like death. :cool:

nuriboy
Dec 27th, 2002, 09:43 PM
Wta: she is top 5. No doubt, but the sisters are 1 and 2.

JCAP
Dec 27th, 2002, 09:47 PM
Still think its all a mental thing, all about attitude and confidence and thats what jen lacks!!!

nuriboy
Dec 27th, 2002, 10:05 PM
And we all saw when she started to fear death!!

Fingon
Dec 27th, 2002, 10:07 PM
Venus by far

GrandSlammed
Dec 27th, 2002, 10:45 PM
We can argue about this all we like, but we keep on watching Venus Williams return what should be absolute winners. Snatching away serves that should be aces...

Irish
Dec 27th, 2002, 10:55 PM
Jennifer, by far. :bounce:

banana
Dec 27th, 2002, 11:07 PM
i believe jennifer and serena are faster than venus, but venus has the better court coverage coz of her reach and serena returns the ball better than jennifer (except the forehand)

jenny161185
Dec 28th, 2002, 02:21 AM
venus has those amazing legs and strides very nicely nicely to the ball - i think jen and serena are the samesppedand capriatis running forehand is the best in the womens game!

Dawn Marie
Dec 28th, 2002, 02:21 AM
what the hell are you two arguing about? Especially when it is clear that VENUS has the best court coverage. Venus can fall down during a point and get back up and still control the rally and win the point, and all the while hitting balls back that NOBODY else will. or CAN do.

I do though think Serena is faster ad has better court coverage then Jennifer. Jennifer won only won title last season, and if her court coverage was as good as Serena's then she would have won more that just 1.

Jennifer also seemed a bit slower to me this year. between OZ 2002 -US open 2002. Her fastest court coverage match was the very first and last tournament of thisyear, which looked fishy to me imho if I may add. I think Momo is faster then Jennifer imho.

Venus
Serena
Kim
Momo
Justine
Jennifer

By the way I think MOMO and JUJU can be tied. in court coverage.:)

Experimentee
Dec 28th, 2002, 01:24 PM
I would rate them like this

1. Venus
2. Serena
3. Jennifer

Arantxa and Coetzer are also notable mentions.

iluvtrent
Dec 28th, 2002, 03:00 PM
I also think Alex Stevenson's court coverage is improving and she COULD be one of the best. Now if she could only get her head together...

Tratree
Dec 28th, 2002, 03:11 PM
Okay, now you're just talkin silly. Alex Stevenson is NO WHERE near the mobility of the aforementioned three girls. She falls more into the Lindsay Davenport category. She is always being wrong footed and is not fast off the mark at all. And her fitness level is way below the others as well, though I think she is working somewhat on that.

iluvtrent
Dec 28th, 2002, 03:20 PM
I said Alex's movement is IMPROVING (just as Lindsay's has over the years). I was very impressed with her movement in her match against Daniela (forget which tourney). IMHO, her problem is her attitude.

Kiswana
Dec 28th, 2002, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by Fingon
Venus by far

I agree.

Serena and ASV follow closely.

o0O0o
Dec 29th, 2002, 01:23 AM
When the Williams sisters have been the fastest for so long, it's hard to accept that others may be faster.

See Clijsters, Myskina, Capriati.

Capriati doesn't have the long lanky reach of either sister but when she is in an all-out sprint she moves better than either of them. She is also lower to the ground so she is better at changing directions. I could bring up many pointless examples of specific points which highlight her speed but I won't. All I will say is that Jennifer, Venus, Serena, and Kim are the four fastest girls on tour and can outrun each other on any given day.

(But Myskina is faster than all of them. :p )

Playa
Dec 29th, 2002, 01:42 AM
bla, bla, bla
Venus has wheels

Shuji Shuriken
Dec 29th, 2002, 02:20 AM
Venus...there should be no doubt!!!

aisha
Dec 29th, 2002, 02:25 AM
I trust Venus.

Oasiatic
Dec 29th, 2002, 02:26 AM
Venus is the better mover. All due to that reach and those lanky legs of hers. She may not look too nice/elegant but she gets the job done more consistently than any of the other girls. Balls just don't get by this girl! :hearts:

BasicTennis
Dec 29th, 2002, 04:16 AM
Venus has the better coverage than Jenny. Venus not only get to the ball; she returns it with power.;)

Jenny is far behind the Williams sisters as far as court coverage is concerned.

JCAP
Dec 29th, 2002, 06:49 PM
Basic tennis your diffentley talking rubbish jen far behind, yeah right whatever!!

GrandSlammed
Dec 29th, 2002, 08:02 PM
Capriati doesn't have the long lanky reach of either sister

Right. Serena Williams is one looong lanky lucy.

We all know Capriati is a quick, low to the ground scramblin' scrambler.. but Venus BECOMES the court to her opponets... there's no where that they can hit the ball, and Venus not be there.:p

Serendy Willick
Dec 29th, 2002, 08:19 PM
Serena IMO could still be more mentally tougher in her matches against Capriati. She honestly needs to just go all out and not show any fear (which she has done a very good job of doing this year!) she has the game to beat Capriati. She often wasted many opprotunities to make her wins a little bit easier this year, I think she needs to focus on taking her opprotunities in matches next year. BTW, Alex Stevensons movements shouldnt even be considered in the top 20, I love ya Alex but your movement stinks!!
1. Venus
2. Serena
3. Capriati
4.Kim Clijsters
are all the movement queens at the moment.