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View Full Version : Which player is the best indoor court player hingis,seles,graf,navratilova?


selesadmirer
Dec 27th, 2002, 12:50 AM
Yeah who do you think from this list plays the best indoors?graf,hingis or Seles,navratilova?

england_rules
Dec 27th, 2002, 01:01 AM
graf, navratilova, serena, then seles

nuriboy
Dec 27th, 2002, 01:25 AM
If you look at the indoor records of the players Graf and Navratilova have the edge over Serena because they played longer. But I think when Serena is done she will be remembered is the best indoor player.

o0O0o
Dec 27th, 2002, 01:30 AM
Serena?

As in, Serena Williams?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

...heh...hehe...

HAHAHA!

nuriboy
Dec 27th, 2002, 01:33 AM
Whatīs there to laugh oooo?!!

selesadmirer
Dec 27th, 2002, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by nuriboy
If you look at the indoor records of the players Graf and Navratilova have the edge over Serena because they played longer. But I think when Serena is done she will be remembered is the best indoor player. where does seles fit into this?

o0O0o
Dec 27th, 2002, 01:44 AM
Serena's indoor record is strikingly unremarkable. What, two or three tournament wins, and the only big one ended with a walkover? Pfft. She's not even in the same league as Hingis or Davenport or even Maleeva!

Gonzo Hates Me!
Dec 27th, 2002, 01:45 AM
Kim Clijsters

A4
Dec 27th, 2002, 01:48 AM
How many tournaments has Serena played indoors? One or two?

selesadmirer
Dec 27th, 2002, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by A4
How many tournaments has Serena played indoors? One or two? should i exclude serena?

Gonzo Hates Me!
Dec 27th, 2002, 01:52 AM
Originally posted by selesadmirer
should i exclude serena?

Let the ring bearer decide

selesadmirer
Dec 27th, 2002, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by Mrs_Guga
Let the ring bearer decide who's that..are you talking about lord of the rings.

Gonzo Hates Me!
Dec 27th, 2002, 01:53 AM
lol... no one!

You should exclude Serena if you think you must

A4
Dec 27th, 2002, 01:59 AM
Good to exclude Serena. Way too small sample size, compared to the others.

Now with the new question, I think Hingis will be bottomed out, dazed and outright spanked last.

The others are about equal.

Fingon
Dec 27th, 2002, 03:25 AM
Originally posted by selesadmirer
Yeah who do you think from this list plays the best indoors?graf,hingis or Seles,navratilova?

hmmm, Graf and Navratilova are retired, so plays isn't the right word

Robbie.
Dec 27th, 2002, 03:54 AM
Originally posted by A4
Good to exclude Serena. Way too small sample size, compared to the others.

Now with the new question, I think Hingis will be bottomed out, dazed and outright spanked last.

The others are about equal.

I think Hingis' record of 2 Tour Championships, 4 Tokyo PPO titles, 4 Filderstadt Titles plus titles in Zurich, Philadephia and Moscow as well as finals appearances too numerous to mention is surely quite worthy of a place in this elite group. She has won everything worth winning on the surface at least once.

spencercarlos
Dec 27th, 2002, 04:52 AM
Graf, Navratilova, Davenport, Hingis, Seles....... hmm Time will tell for Serena, right now thatīs my top 5

franny
Dec 27th, 2002, 05:02 AM
hingis of course, i've alwyas felt that the indoor courts are her best surface, followed by hard courts, clay, and of course, the dreaded grass courts. The speed helps her serve and her speed lets her catch up to the balls without being affected too harshly, she has the perfect game to play on the fast indoor courts, the courts help her more than hurt her, unlike the grass.

Jakeev
Dec 27th, 2002, 07:16 AM
I think Martina was definitely the queen of indoor tennis. Then again in her day, more tournaments were played indoor and on carpet then they are now.

The one player not mentioned that seems to thrive indoor today is Lindsay Davenport. I think of active players today, she has the best record indoors.

Glenn
Dec 27th, 2002, 07:19 AM
Graf, then Navratilova, then Seles...
But if I have to choose from anyone, I say Maleeva is best on carpet, and Kim and Lindsay overall.

irma
Dec 27th, 2002, 07:33 AM
all players selesadmirer listed would at their best kill maleeva on carpet.

people have lost their perspective a little since moskou!

Glenn
Dec 27th, 2002, 07:44 AM
Originally posted by irma
all players selesadmirer listed would at their best kill maleeva on carpet.
Not proven.


Moscow Tier I 482 points Oct 6 02
F Maleeva - Lindsay Davenport(3) 5-7 6-3 7-6(4)
SF Maleeva - Amelie Mauresmo(5) 7-5 6-4
QF Maleeva - Nathalie Dechy 6-4 6-2
2 Maleeva - Venus Williams(1) 2-6 6-1 7-6(3)
1 Maleeva - Anna Smashnova 6-1 6-2
Proven.

irma
Dec 27th, 2002, 07:50 AM
so 1 tournament makes you the best ever?

philadelphia 98
32 W Mary-Joe FERNANDEZ (USA) 6-3 7-6
16 W Elena LIKHOVTSEVA (RUS) 6-7 6-2 6-4
QF W Martina HINGIS (SUI) 6-2 4-6 6-0
SF W Nathalie TAUZIAT (FRA) 6-1 6-4
FR W Lindsay DAVENPORT (USA) 4:6 6:3 6:4

proven (lol ;))

Glenn
Dec 27th, 2002, 07:59 AM
You think that's her only result on carpet?
I'm not saying that she's the best ever, but it's her best surface, and she poses a serious threat to anyone on it!

She holds a strong 106-45 record on it, not the best record ever, but considering she isn't much of a threat throughout the rest of the year, this is very decent!
She also made alot of upsets in the past, on carpet.

irma
Dec 27th, 2002, 07:59 AM
no serious
nav won like 8 masterstitles, beat the number 1 and 2 on carpet at 37 and so I can go on

I think this woman has a right to call herself the indoorqueen

irma
Dec 27th, 2002, 08:02 AM
I didn't say it was her only result on that surface (it's her biggest title though)

you said she was the best overall and I think that's exaggerated.
she never won the masters afterall

Glenn
Dec 27th, 2002, 08:06 AM
Navratilova won over 340 titles, she's already the queen of every surface, lol!
Let Maleeva have this, lol, jkn.
Just saying that she's good, she applies different tactics than other players, (eg. Clijsters and Davenport overpowering everyone.)

Glenn
Dec 27th, 2002, 08:07 AM
And I didn't say she's the best overall!
I just said she's at her best on carpet!

way
Dec 27th, 2002, 09:08 AM
Navratilova and Graf hands down.
No comparison with "past greats", though, unfortunately.
And no comparison with "present greats".
Fortunately.

Bigkimfan
Dec 27th, 2002, 09:15 AM
Kim...!:D

Come on Kim!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:bounce: :bounce:

selesadmirer
Dec 27th, 2002, 10:19 AM
Anybody have the indoor stats so we can see?

Come-on-kim
Dec 27th, 2002, 11:02 AM
Kim and Lindsay!!!!!

nuriboy
Dec 27th, 2002, 11:12 AM
Way: whatīs the matter?! You seem afraid that todays players will break the past greats records. Why is it?! " No present greats. fortunately?!" Whatīs up with that?!

way
Dec 27th, 2002, 11:17 AM
Absolutely not, Nuriboy.
Just a little bit of sarcasm towards those who think Davenport or Serena or ANY active player can have a say in *alltime* matters before having completed a career par to the old greats.
As simple as that.

nuriboy
Dec 27th, 2002, 11:40 AM
Oh, I see. Thatīs correct. They are just getting started. I see your point.

selesrules
Dec 27th, 2002, 12:24 PM
Seles had 3 wta championships and Graf had 2 wta championships before the stabbing, so Seles should rank higher. I mean she surpassed Graf on carpet despite being 4.5 years younger. :eek: Then we all know what happened :rolleyes:

I don't know about Navratilova & Hingis...

Smart
Dec 27th, 2002, 12:35 PM
Outside list: Clijsters

spencercarlos
Dec 27th, 2002, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by selesrules
Seles had 3 wta championships and Graf had 2 wta championships before the stabbing, so Seles should rank higher. I mean she surpassed Graf on carpet despite being 4.5 years younger. :eek: Then we all know what happened :rolleyes:

I don't know about Navratilova & Hingis...

Yes for sure how smart, lets DISCCOUNT everybodyīs wins after 93 Stabbing because Monica was not there or when the ghost Monica played. Well all know you are so smart SelesRules :rolleyes:

Tennis for everybody ended in April 93 :eek:. How bad still Graf had 11 Grand Slams before the stabbing > 8 Selesīs Slams at least my calculator says that.

spencercarlos
Dec 27th, 2002, 04:46 PM
Plus if winning the Masters means something, we can rank Gabriela Sabatini somewhere winning the masters 1988, 1994, and losing the finals in 87 (4 setter to Graf) and 90 (5 Setter vs the super UNBEATABLE Monica Seles)

selesrules
Dec 27th, 2002, 04:48 PM
Seles was 5 years younger and winning slams at a much faster pace and yet she already had 8 compared to 11 shows clearly that Seles is better. That was an EMBARRASSEMENT to Graf, that's why she cried like a big baby after her 93 AO loss. She couldn't do anything, it was the Monica tour, that's why Parche stabbed Monica to give Graf a career again.

spencercarlos
Dec 27th, 2002, 04:57 PM
Yes for sure she could not do anything.
Lose 6-2 3-6 10-8, win 6-2 6-1 and then lose 4-6 6-3 6-2 in their last 3 meetings. For sure Monica was beating her so badly the "She couldn't do anything" :rolleyes: IMAO

irma
Dec 27th, 2002, 04:59 PM
steffi showed her feelings after a tough match. I prefer that above repeating kylie minoque songs!

MLF
Dec 27th, 2002, 05:10 PM
Monica Seles is my favourite player but indoors Martina Navratilova was queen followed by Steffi Graf. And if such a huge, ( biased :p ) Steffi fan such as Irma says Navratilova was the indoor queen I think then we have to go with her on that ;)

way
Dec 27th, 2002, 05:12 PM
Graf was never dominated, Selesrules, she succumbed to herself more than to opponents.
Have you seen the video in which she burst in tears just because Austin, interviewing her, mention (I mean, she just mentioned) her father?
In those years, 91-94, Graf had been even thinking of retiring.
Not because of Seles, for sure.
She awfully lost to Sanchez, Novotna and Pierce matches she'd have easily won three years before and one year later.
Lost to Pierce in 94, for instance (all her horrible 94, that is) occurred to her IN SPITE of Monica's absence.
Seles's stabbing has of course deprived Monica of some (especially extratennis, that is), but to say that Graf record is hyped *because of* the stabbing is crazyness, fanaticism and, above all, it is unfair to a player who was great (greatest? one of? that doesn't matter) BEFORE the stabbing and APART from the stabbing.
You'll have to cope with it.

And allow me to quote myself again:
....... the more I hear all these people blattering about the monstruosity of the aggrression Monica underwent, the more i'm conviced they don't give a damn about a person being stabbed.
They care about Monica being stabbed.
There's a big difference.
The second ones wouldn't think too much before putting a knife into Graf's back, could they only turn back the clock to the mid 90s.

nuriboy
Dec 27th, 2002, 05:28 PM
Way: Iīll speak for myself. I for me find it strange that you can include Steffi in all the greatest ever debates and all, but yo canīt include Monica pre stabbing? why is that? And the come with crap that people would want to stab Graf because that is BS! Iīll tell you like it is: B.S.!! Because I think you must agree with me on this: If it wasnīt for the stabbing Graf and Seles would have ended with a career pretty even to each other. And thatīs why I think if you consider Graf an all-time great, why canīt you give Monica pre- stabbing an excemption?! Cause she was on her way and someone took her opportunity away from her!

irma
Dec 27th, 2002, 05:33 PM
nuriboy sadly that's not crap. some would serious stab steffi if they had the chance or better her child!

nuriboy
Dec 27th, 2002, 05:54 PM
Irma. That would be sad...but thatīs these persons problems. I spoke for myself. Me myself wouldnīt even think about, even if I was a fan of Monica. But one thing Iīll give you Irma: I think itīs really sick of your beloved Steffi to vote against to freeze the no.1 ranking of Monica even when she knew what the intention of Parche wasI think that steffi is great champion et al, but I donīt think she ever heard of the world CLASS and thatīs why Iīm not a fan of her!! I know others voted against too, but Steffi was the one who profited the most.

selesrules
Dec 27th, 2002, 06:04 PM
Way, everything you're saying about Graf shows that Monica's domination would have most likely continued through at least 1993 and 1994 since Graf was still "struggling" as you put it. As for 1995 & 1996, it would have been a toss-up between Seles & Graf. For Seles to comeback after 2.5 years and almost beat Graf, shows that without her problems and with more confidence and wins under her belt, she would have most likely even dominated 1995 and 1996. I mean during that period, even Aranxta was giving huge problems to Graf and took away the no.1 spot.

irma
Dec 27th, 2002, 06:10 PM
nuriboy well I think the rankingvote was not fair either. criminals should not get what they want and for sure not in 5 weeks!

nuriboy
Dec 27th, 2002, 06:18 PM
Yeah Irma but so is life,eh?!

steffilover
Dec 27th, 2002, 06:41 PM
Stick to the question, selesrules. You are an EMBARRASSMENT....learn to spell before you start your biased, prejudiced, nonsensical rants!!!

way
Dec 27th, 2002, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by selesrules
Way, everything you're saying about Graf shows that Monica's domination would have most likely continued through at least 1993 and 1994 since Graf was still "struggling" as you put it. As for 1995 & 1996, it would have been a toss-up between Seles & Graf. For Seles to comeback after 2.5 years and almost beat Graf, shows that without her problems and with more confidence and wins under her belt, she would have most likely even dominated 1995 and 1996. I mean during that period, even Aranxta was giving huge problems to Graf and took away the no.1 spot.


Ok, selesrules, this is a much more acceptable way to put it.
I still dont' agree, of course, (why do you take for granted Seles'd have dominated "more" easily and not that Graf could have "returned*, in Monica's presence, for example?)
But this doesn't matter.
We don'y have to agree.
I accept this *insult-free* and *motivated* opinion of yours.

nuriboy
Dec 27th, 2002, 06:45 PM
Finally you accept it way?! Cool man!

way
Dec 27th, 2002, 06:47 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by nuriboy
Iīll speak for myself. I for me find it strange that you can include Steffi in all the greatest ever debates and all, but yo canīt include Monica pre stabbing? why is that?


I don't know why I have to say this 1000 times, but, you know....we're all different!
:)
Ok, again:
BECAUSE IT IS MY OPINION!
In my opinion, Graf belongs to a strict circle of "alltime greats" to which Seles doesn't belong.
IN YOUR (AND MANY OTHERS') OPINION SHE DOES.
What's the problem?
Is my opinion so important to you?
Ok, I understand, but let me breathe for a while!
:)

Fortis
Dec 27th, 2002, 06:49 PM
Nuriboy, How can you comment about Steffi Graf and Monica Seles and you know nothing about the era they played in. From what I have heard Steffi was no less classy than Seles.

The reality is that Steffi had to carry on playing on the tour after the 1993 incident as she couldn't very well sit and wait until Seles felt like returning. You wouldn't have, so why except Graf or anyone else to do the same particularly when Seles' injury wasn't life-threatening and did not even require a day of hospital stay.

Further, Seles herself as said that during the interim she took the time to ski and discover herself. If she could have gone skiing why didn't she come back and play tennis?? I guess it was in her best interest due to the law suits she had against the WTA and the tournament in Hamburg plus she was doing the talk show circuits. If you were not around then it's difficult to put this all in context.

Further Graf took the high road by not voting. What else could she have done??? Seles' so-called friends-Mary Joe Fernandez and Martina Navratilova voted for Seles not to be Co-No. 1...Maybe they knew something we didn't--like the fact that she could have come back much earlier and just didn't.

As to the real point of the thread. It's hard for me to pick between NAvratilova or Graf as the best indoor player. What I do know it's not Serena.

spencercarlos
Dec 27th, 2002, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by Fortis
Further Graf took the high road by not voting. What else could she have done??? Seles' so-called friends-Mary Joe Fernandez and Martina Navratilova voted for Seles not to be Co-No. 1...Maybe they knew something we didn't--like the fact that she could have come back much earlier and just didn't.

As to the real point of the thread. It's hard for me to pick between NAvratilova or Graf as the best indoor player. What I do know it's not Serena.

Thatīs excatly what iīm telling to Seles rules. Should the WHOLE tour have stopped since 93 and wait for Seles to comeback?
So the post April 1993 tournament winners does not COUNTS just becuase Monica was not playing??
Will Seles be excused by the stabbing for not being what she once was?
Has the Stabbing anything to do with Monicaīs comittment to train and have a better fitness?

I leave you this questions for you.

:o Getting Back to the topic. No one has answered this.


Plus if winning the Masters means something, we can rank Gabriela Sabatini somewhere winning the masters 1988, 1994, and losing the finals in 87 (4 setter to Graf) and 90 (5 Setter vs the super UNBEATABLE Monica Seles)

selesrules
Dec 27th, 2002, 08:45 PM
Nobody is saying that everyone had to stop. We are saying that when we analyze things such as records, greatness, this event is HUGE especially when it comes to Seles & Graf since the purpose of the event was to hurt Seles and help Graf, You can't just say "too bad". Graf's career got a 2nd life and Seles' mentality and career was destroyed forever, so the question of who's greater is DEBATABLE because the statistics are FAKE. The best thing would be to say "we will never know" or to analyze what was happening back then, but just like Graf fans can say Graf is the greatest, Seles fans can say that Seles is the greatest since she was the best for years and was destined to be the greatest until a KNIFE changed that on purpose. 80% of people would have said in 1993 that Seles would finish off with more slams then Graf since she was way younger and winning at a much faster pace.

It's like someone comes and hurts Tiger Woods because he's dominating and he's destined to be the greatest, then the no.2 starts winning everything again and now we just should say "too bad, the no.2 player is the best?". PLEASE! Don't support an evil act, the least you can say out of respect for tennis history is "we will never know". But before the knife, the odds for becoming greatest were in favor of Seles in the eyes of majority not Graf, and that is a HUGE DEAL. Just imagine if Graf was stabbed and Seles continued playing? What then??? Seles would have had the records. What if Navratilova was taken away from her prime? Evert would have all the records. Don't let records based on a knife decide things.

nuriboy
Dec 27th, 2002, 08:52 PM
Way: I know that it is your opinion. Iīll ask you this. If the stabbing didnīt happen and Seles won more slams than Steffi, what then?!Would she belong to your " group"?

To me you just donīt like Monica. Say it and donīt talk BS about criterias such as titles, doubles,etc etc, because of course Monica will never achieve them now.

nuriboy
Dec 27th, 2002, 09:01 PM
Fortis: Would YOU still be playing when a fan stabbed you just because you was no.1 in your sport?! When they let the person who stabbed you walk away and free?! When your colleagues voted to not let you stay no.1 during your recovery?!Thatīs just a act of betrayal to Monica!! Whatīs up with that?! I didnīt say they should stop with the tour in ī93! Donīt be stupid!! I just said they could show class and let her be no.1 till she returns. I think if they did just that Monica would have returned more quickly

selesrules
Dec 27th, 2002, 09:05 PM
Some people here think that if someone gets stabbed or raped, then they just wake up the next day and continue their life like normal. Some victims of such crimes NEVER get over these events. This isn't a joke. :rolleyes:

irma
Dec 27th, 2002, 09:11 PM
selesrules I agree with you there.

It's more then "just a wound"

I say it once more if such things were so easy then the mental hospitals would not be overloaded!

ttaM
Dec 27th, 2002, 09:18 PM
ANYWAY.........;)

Navratilova gets my vote. 8 time season ending champion. Runner-up a few times too. I'm too lazy to look at how many indoor titles she has...but I'm sure it is a lot. ;)

way
Dec 27th, 2002, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by nuriboy
Way: I know that it is your opinion. Iīll ask you this. If the stabbing didnīt happen and Seles won more slams than Steffi, what then?!Would she belong to your " group"?] /QUOTE]

Well, i suppose so.
But it's difficult for me to answer this because I don't believe this would have happened, as you know.
The same way I could ask everybody (don't be afraid, i won't ask you, I know you've been following tennis for three years) :), if they thought Austin could have been the greatest had she not been sidelined or how many slams mught Connolly have won had she not died of a tumor caused by a car crash.
We can discuss all the whatifs we want, i'm here, Nuriboy!






Originally posted by nuriboy To me you just donīt like Monica. Say it and donīt talk BS about criterias such as titles, doubles,etc etc, because of course Monica will never achieve them now. [/B]

Foul language catches you in the act, nuriboy, don't forget.
Who has something to express do not need it.
And I don't know why you label criteria the way you did, anyway.

Peace

nuriboy
Dec 27th, 2002, 11:51 PM
O.k. i shouldnīt have used it. Sorry about that. Itīs just that your logic is doesnīt make any sense!

Way:I suppose so.....then I donīt believe it would have happened?! What does that mean?! You want me to believe that even with Monica as her biggest rival Steffi would have achieved what she did?! That doesnīt make sense. Donīt tell me all of sudden Steffi would have start beating Monica all the time!

Just tell me that no matter what Monica would have achieved sans stabbing you still wouldnīt have liker her or include her in the greatest group. My guess is that you would have used other "criterias" so that Steffi does make it and Monica doesnīt! Even though they could have a even career as far as results!!

Donīt cam with Tracy Austin, because she won only 2 and it wasnīt a jelaous fan that stabbed her. Monica was ON HER WAY ( 8 GSīs!!!. If youīre such a " historian" you should know!) to becoming a great when a fan of a RIVAL stabbed her!! Different things!!!

way
Dec 28th, 2002, 12:49 AM
Nuriboy:
You want me to believe that even with Monica as her biggest rival Steffi would have achieved what she did?!

Way:
I don't want you to believe anything.
I want you to accept that it is my opinion.


Nuriboy:
That doesnīt make sense. Donīt tell me all of sudden Steffi would have start beating Monica all the time!

Way:
Not all the time.
Most of the time.
All and all they were even in Seles's peak years vs Graf's worst years.



Nuriboy:
Just tell me that no matter what Monica would have achieved sans stabbing you still wouldnīt have liker her or include her in the greatest group.

Way:
Yes, that's right.
No Wimbledon (or, at least one weak surface)
She is the Sampras in reverse of womens' tennis, to me.
With no French Open he will always be short of Borg and Laver, in my opinion.
But that is only MY VIEW, I don't understand why you care so much about it.
You realize you're giving me an importance I do not deserve, don't you?


Nuriboy:
My guess is that you would have used other "criterias" so that Steffi does make it and Monica doesnīt! Even though they could have a even career as far as results!!

Way:
That's a false guess.
Period.

Nuriboy:
Donīt cam with Tracy Austin, because she won only 2 and it wasnīt a jelaous fan that stabbed her. Monica was ON HER WAY ( 8 GSīs!!!. If youīre such a " historian" you should know!) to becoming a great when a fan of a RIVAL stabbed her!! Different things!!!

Way:
False again.
There are plenty of arguments to support Austin.
Allow me not to debate them here.
Come to BFTP >>>> Austin vs Sanchez and you'll read more from me about her (since you care so much about what I say) and from people who know much more than me

Fortis
Dec 28th, 2002, 01:32 AM
I will just simply say the logic of the so-called Seles "fans" is bizarre. I just want to say that this isn't just about Seles. In my opinion, this being done out of jealousy for the achievement of one player over another.

Anyway, Steffi Graf had a career golden grand slam long before Seles and beat Evert and Navratilova along the way to achieving it. That is enough for me.

Even if she is not the best indoor player ever, she was good enough on every surface so that she could win four of each slam on four different surfaces ( something that can't be said about every top player):D :D :D

nuriboy
Dec 28th, 2002, 01:57 AM
Ok Way. Let me see if I get it. If Monica wins the wimbledon she will have a career slam. No weak surface. She won on all. What then? What would the excuse be then?!

Aaah! All of sudden the Seles peak becomes Grafīs weak years?! They were even in the head-head but 3-1 in gs finals is what matters,way! You have to win the biggies!!

To tell you I donīt care at all for your opinion, I just want to show you that even yourself doesnīt apply your logic all the time. You changed to fit the ones you like and exclude the ones you donīt like. And to me thatīs crap. If you set the criterias, everyone who fits does have to be included!

spencercarlos
Dec 28th, 2002, 02:03 AM
For sure Fortis i agree you. Plus it was not like all Grand Slam finals between 91-93 were Graf vs Seles, like Evert and Navratilova mostly did in the early eighties. Obviously Evert and Navratilova were superior from the rest.

While 91-93 You had Seles, Graf, Navratilova, Arantxa, Sabatini as Grand Slam winners, plus some force coming from Capriati, Jana, Mary Joe who reached Semis and GS finals (except Jennifer) at that time.

So still the POST STABBING winners still had to continue and work their butt hard to get the wins. Thatīs something you should recognize. The tour continued. New players came in you canīt know what could have happened.

Have not you thought that is someone ask in 1989 if Graf was going to dominate for many years, what would you think the answer would have been? Yes of course the girl who won 7/8 Grand Slams would continue to dominate, AS WE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED Seles came on to dominate, Sabatini started to play lot more agressive tennis and Arantxa started to become a more complete player, and Navratilova remained pretty fit and strong. I mean players got better, and every season goes.

So Steffiīs domination came to an end. Nothing is for sure. I think that is something that Monica learned by the hard way for sure. In an underserved way.

Monica came back and played Canada and won 6-0 6-1 over Amanda Coetzer who had just beaten Steffi 7-6 in the third. So was Steffi going to lose 6-0 6-0? Can we continue with this "would have" "could have" game?

You are allways talking about "the knife" as the factor to win a slam. You play tennis with a racket, not with a knife. No one says that Monica would not have been able to win those slams in that time, cause there is not a reson to prove it, but also there is not a reson to say she would have won all of them. Graf won 6 slams in Selesīs abscense. Arantxa won 2, Conchita and Mary got 1 win each. So those great tournament performance by them are FAKE? or just GRAFīs ones???

spencercarlos
Dec 28th, 2002, 02:12 AM
God mighty ! Selesrules and Nuryboy, Tennis DID NOT END in April 93, when the hell youīll understand that?

See how ridiculous you are. You limit best from 91-93 anything before (when Monica was a little and poor child as you say) or after (when the stab thing and etc) does not counts.

Biggies count. Stats before Stabbing.
Graf def Seles Roland Garros 89 6-3 3-6 6-3
Seles def Graf Roland GArros 90 7-6 6-4
Graf def Seles Wimbledon 89 6-0 6-1
Seles def Graf Roland Garros 92 6-2 3-6 10-8
Graf def Seles Wimbledon 92 6-2 6-1
Seles def Graf Ausralian 93 4-6 6-3 6-2

They were tied at Slams, where the biggies just count. So?

Fortis
Dec 28th, 2002, 02:47 AM
Frankly, nuriboy I don't care if you agree with me. I have seen more tennis than you have and I was around for most of the events that you merely speculate about.

I know your logic--Downplay Graf's achievements with the 1993 incident and Serena, your fave, will come out smelling like roses.

It's quite transparent. Don't worry, lad, if Serena is as good as the former greats it will all come out in time. You don't need to tear down other's achievements.

Jakeev
Dec 28th, 2002, 07:51 AM
Martina N. Had the best record of all the players mentioned indoor......think the case should be closed.

way
Dec 28th, 2002, 09:51 AM
N:
Ok Way. Let me see if I get it. If Monica wins the wimbledon she will have a career slam. No weak surface. She won on all. What then? What would the excuse be then?!

WAY.
No excuses, first.
I'm an observer and a tennis lover, so when a player deserves something, i'm the one to be happy to give them credit.
Yes, Should Monca win Wimbledon i DEFINITELY think her overall status will have to be re-judged, so as to say.
Let alone entering the alltime greats, which she will surelly do.




N
Aaah! All of sudden the Seles peak becomes Grafīs weak years?! They were even in the head-head but 3-1 in gs finals is what matters,way! You have to win the biggies!!

WAY
Sorry if I can't keep up with this highschool jargon.
Tennis:
It's not ALL OF A SUDDEN, it's like this full stop.
But I know you don't remember, so I don't mind you believe something you cannot know.
Graf never dominated Seles.
That's an undeniable truth.
It's as if, in fifteen years time, someone told you, should Venus ends up with more than Serena, that she was dominated by her sister.
We who are living these years know for sure we cannot say so.
Sisters, psychological involving, attitudes.
Nobody knows for sure what an "angry" Venus could score against Serena.
But in 15 years time youngsters will just look at results and say in 2002 Venus was dominated.
False.
As, equal and opposite, with Hingis.
In 15 yrs time, someone could say she dominated because of the 150 weeks in a row at n1.
We know she dominated only for one year.

N:
To tell you I donīt care at all for your opinion, I just want to show you that even yourself doesnīt apply your logic all the time. You changed to fit the ones you like and exclude the ones you donīt like. And to me thatīs crap.

WAY:
Oh, that's why you keep answering each and every post of mine.
You're a coprophile!!!
:bounce:

N.
If you set the criterias, everyone who fits does have to be included!

WAY:
they do.
Who doesn't?

Philbo
Dec 28th, 2002, 11:24 AM
Steffi did benefit from Monica's absence, as did all of the other players who won slams in her absence - The reason Graf's benefit comes uo more often is because oF Graf fans who insist on the fact that Steffi won 22 slams and all 4 slams at least 4 times as irrefutable proff that Steffi is the best ever - the stabbing had a DIRECT, INTENDED motive to secure Steffi's palce in history and it makes me sick that some people want to ignore the effect it had on tennis history...

The fact is that all of Steffi's 6 slam victories during Monca's absence have an asterix against them, it may not be remembered in 100 years, but it will be as long as I have breath and can remind people that Monica was the dominant player of her day and a fan of the previous # 1 stabbed her to return her to # 1 and secure a place in history that is not accurate of her ability.

irma
Dec 28th, 2002, 11:30 AM
steffi's place in tennishistory was already assured before the idiot came!

nuriboy
Dec 28th, 2002, 11:49 AM
Now weīre talking tennis Way! Just wanted to know that. Now youīre being fair and true!

nuriboy
Dec 28th, 2002, 11:52 AM
Fortis: Do u know me?! How can you state you have watched more tennis than me when you donīt even know me?! And when did I even mention Serenaīs name here?! Go back read the posts before you talk crap! donīt need to downplay anyoneīs achievements to make serena look better. Serenaīs just getting started! When all is said and done her results will speak for themselves! With no asteriks!!

way
Dec 28th, 2002, 11:56 AM
Exactly, Irma!
And, Phil, can you see?
You accused me, no more than a week ago, of jumping up all the time saying Graf is the best!
And you said you don't think Navra MUST be the best, but arguments can be made also for others.
Now re-read your post and tell me what a clever guy thinks your arguments in favour of Graf are.

Now, as always, I'm jumping up NOT to say Graf is the best, but to say how unfair it is saying she CANNOT be.
That's a big difference, i'm sure you understand.


And recently I've been doing this with Navratilova and others, too, with people who think they have been surpassed by the greats of the present.

I hope this will at least help us to understand each other's positions.

way
Dec 28th, 2002, 11:58 AM
Ok, nuriboy, i'm glad we agree to respect each other in spite of different opinions!
:)

selesrules
Dec 28th, 2002, 12:54 PM
Would Graf have achieved the grandslam in 1988 or 22 slams if she was stabbed at her prime? NO. Would Navratilova have achieved 6 wimbledons in a row or 18 slams if she was stabbed at her prime? NO. Would Evert had won over 25 slams if Navratilova was stabbed at her prime? YES.

Seles was stabbed at her prime, she could have won 6 consecutive french opens, or she could have won the grandslam in 1993 or 1994. Graf accomplished things before Monica but Graf was NOT stabbed. What if she was stabbed in 1988?? What then?? Get lives. As for AFTER the stabbing, Graf accomplished half of her records.

nuriboy
Dec 28th, 2002, 02:43 PM
Thereīs a point in what selesrules is saying. Itīs a FACT that during Monicaīs run from 90-92/93( part of) the GS count was
8-2 for Monica. ( of course Steffi had already won the other 9). So this means that Steffi achieved half of her 22 GSī s AFTER the stabbing. This means that after the stabbing steffi won 11 and before that only 2 during Monicaīs run. ANd you want to say to me that Steffi would have won this amount without the stabbing?! Just think about it.

Of course Steffi did what she had to do: beat the rest. But sure the stabbing helped her a lot! Not to diminish her results or anything. Me only saying: without stabbing no way Steffi wins as much as 11 slams as she did after the stabbing!!

joaco
Dec 28th, 2002, 03:14 PM
IN RESPONSE TO THE TOPIC: I believe that Davenport should be included in the short list of the top indoor players!