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nuriboy
Dec 25th, 2002, 02:50 PM
In the spirit of all those stabbing threads, I decided to make this one. In the three years before the stabbing Monica was really at another level than anyone and clearly DOMINATING tennis like never before. I mean not even Graf in her days didnīt win 8 of 9 GSīs she played. Can we say that if it werenīt for the stabbing Monica Seles would have go down as the greatest and thatīs why we should just do that?! Monica the greatest?!!

Your thoughts!!

Glenn
Dec 25th, 2002, 02:54 PM
If I could bump this thread way down I would... :rolleyes: :p
There's been like 1154156456 of these...

selesadmirer
Dec 25th, 2002, 02:57 PM
yes, without a doubt.

selesadmirer
Dec 25th, 2002, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by Glenn
If I could bump this thread way down I would... :rolleyes: :p
There's been like 1154156456 of these... If you people don't know by now monica's 10 th anniversary of the stabbing is coming up...be nice.

Glenn
Dec 25th, 2002, 03:01 PM
It's not about Monica, I love Monica, but the same question over and over again...
It's getting too much!

BK4ever
Dec 25th, 2002, 03:09 PM
greatest :D maybe

selesrules
Dec 25th, 2002, 03:36 PM
Monica is the greatest:

-- She had a dominating 4-1 record in grandslam finals against Graf & Navratilova up until the stabbing, and she was only getting stronger.
-- She won 7 of the last 8 slams she entered, won 8 slams at 19.

and most importantly

--- She is always gracious in victory or defeat, she's a true role model
--- Despite everything that has happened to her, such as the stabbing which ruined her career and changed her mentality towards her sport, the death of her father & coach after a long battle with cancer, the hundreds of setbacks due to injuries, the injustices from the wta tour, the german court, etc. SHE IS STILL OUT THERE COMPETING because NOBODY loves tennis more then Monica.

She is the ultimate champion every way you look at it.

spencercarlos
Dec 25th, 2002, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by nuriboy
I mean not even Graf in her days didnīt win 8 of 9 GSīs she played.

Nuriboy your love Fanatic and frenetic when talking about Monica Just make me sick. Please keep true facts when talking.

Graf won From Australian Open 88 to Australian Open 90 8 of 9 Grand Slams Played.

Now that she did you`ll maybe start to mention now that she did but with and old Evert, Martina, poor Gaby, Arantxa,a etc and so on.

Graf also won from 1993-1996 9 of 12 Grand Slams as well.

Bероника
Dec 25th, 2002, 04:07 PM
Yes,for me Monica is the greatest no matter what happened.The best champion tennis has ever had.

way
Dec 25th, 2002, 04:31 PM
1. No, period.
A player short of Wimbledon cannot be the greatest ever.
Greatest ever is a game played by Graf, Lenglen, Wills, Connolly, Navratilova and Court.
Choose one according to criteria you like.
Seles is not in this bunch.
IMHO

2. Those who say Seles dominated Graf are
A) younger than 10 ys old at the time
B) blinded seles fans
C) obsessed with Graf's achievements
D) one of the possible combination of A, B and C

Sorry for the not-so-Xmas-like msg, but i'm with Glenn.
Bored of these threads and, more than this, bored with the ingenuities ALL them unavoidably bring to.

Merry Xmas anyhow!
:)

way
Dec 25th, 2002, 04:34 PM
and petosp (by far Xmas atmosphere is gone) :), don't demand "exact" numbers from Nuriboy.
He quotes casually and then answer you with an "ahahahah".

Eaten well, Nuri?
:)

King Lindsay
Dec 25th, 2002, 04:36 PM
Do you morons ever get tired of having the same argument again and again?

way
Dec 25th, 2002, 04:42 PM
Now "moron" seems really a bit too off, KL, it's Christmas time after all!
:)

King Lindsay
Dec 25th, 2002, 04:45 PM
Alright, alright. Merry christmas, do intelligent individuals such as yourseleves ever get tired of having the same argument?

nuriboy
Dec 25th, 2002, 07:24 PM
alright Way! I get it, I get it. Donīt have to keep throwing it in my face!! I get it...no more laughing! Now on the question:
Petosp, are you stupid or what?! Sorry for the X-mas feeling. I mean if weīre talking the Monica BEFORE the stabbing you cannot come with the grand slams AFTER the stabbing!! Canīt you read or what?!
Secondly, of course Steffi would go on to win all those GSīs because the REAL no. 1 was away from the sport or is this also a mistake?! And my point is that she was greater than Steffi when it mattered because of this statistic: 3-1 in GS finals!! Got that?! Steffi couldnīt beat her in GS finals!! And remember Iīm talking before the stabbing. Of course after the stabbing the things werenīt the same, so donīt be FOOLISH petosp!!

irma
Dec 25th, 2002, 07:30 PM
if you think monica is the greatest. go ahead;)

nuriboy
Dec 25th, 2002, 07:48 PM
and what do YOU think, Irma girl?!

irma
Dec 25th, 2002, 07:55 PM
my vision is still that my fav (you know who) is the greatest for me. records have nothing to do with that!

it's a personal opinion and yeah I also thought that in the early ninties

nuriboy
Dec 25th, 2002, 08:02 PM
Ok dan! Thatīs your opinion...clear! Otherwise she wouldnīt be your fav!

selesrules
Dec 25th, 2002, 08:10 PM
With the Monica leading Graf/Navratilova 4-1 in grandslam finals, I would say that they were the ones not at her level, not the other way around.

As for Wimbledon, before the stabbing Monica had played it only 2 times in the early 90's and made the final once. Graf and Navratilova won Wimbledon after many more tries, if they were stabbed before, they wouldn't have won.

Also after the stabbing, Monica is practically winning no slams, if she continued dominating & winning the 3 other slams and still didn't win Wimbledon then it would be a fair argument. But she's not the same player anymore and when it comes to pre-stabbing, when you look at what she did in Wimbledon compared to what Graf/Navratilova did in Wimbledon during the same period of their careers, Monica is AHEAD! MONICA IS THE ULTIMATE CHAMPION. :kiss:

P.S: Monica still has a shot at Wimbledon :kiss:

Jakub
Dec 25th, 2002, 08:22 PM
For me she is definitely the greatest player women`s tennis ever had :)

PhoenixStorm
Dec 25th, 2002, 08:53 PM
now do you understand why I think all these seles stabbing best ever threads are one too many?

way
Dec 25th, 2002, 08:58 PM
Everybody complaining about these threads have more than a point.
But can I add I'm really happy about Selesrules's answer?
I don't agree with you, man.
But finally you opposed a complete reasoning.
Shake my hand and let's agree to disagree.
:wavey:

spencercarlos
Dec 25th, 2002, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by nuriboy
alright Way! I get it, I get it. Donīt have to keep throwing it in my face!! I get it...no more laughing! Now on the question:
Petosp, are you stupid or what?! Sorry for the X-mas feeling. I mean if weīre talking the Monica BEFORE the stabbing you cannot come with the grand slams AFTER the stabbing!! Canīt you read or what?!
Secondly, of course Steffi would go on to win all those GSīs because the REAL no. 1 was away from the sport or is this also a mistake?! And my point is that she was greater than Steffi when it mattered because of this statistic: 3-1 in GS finals!! Got that?! Steffi couldnīt beat her in GS finals!! And remember Iīm talking before the stabbing. Of course after the stabbing the things werenīt the same, so donīt be FOOLISH petosp!!

FOOLISH YOU nuriboy seems that you canīt think well. People like you always want to resume tennis greatness from 1991-1993 When Monica won 8/9 Grand Slams????

Get your facts straight and right.

1990 Rg Seles won, then Navratilova won Wimbledon and Sabatini Usopen.
Seles won from RG 1990-AO 1993 8/11 Grand Slams played
Graf won 8/9 from 1988 AO to 1990 AO

And as far as i know those events are before the stabbing.

And yet Monica the best ever for sure but she could not even take more than 3 games off Graf on Grass Courts. You Make me laugh again.

selesrules
Dec 25th, 2002, 09:12 PM
Monica BEAT Navratilova who is better then Graf on grass. And Navratilova was still playing top level since she beat Graf the next year!! And she reached the Wimbledon final 2 years later!! Also we all know what was happening in the 92 final, Monica was more worried about controling her grunts instead of playing tennis. :rolleyes: It's sad that Graf's only big win over Monica during the early 90's was overshadowed by a valid excuse, while Monica beat Steffi 3 times in slam finals fair and square.

irma
Dec 25th, 2002, 09:14 PM
steffi beat nav twice in wimbledon too!

selesrules
Dec 25th, 2002, 09:18 PM
Well that's because she was allowed to continue playing her :rolleyes: It's not as if Monica is 0-20 against Graf at Wimbledon :rolleyes: She's 0-2 against Graf (one in 1989 when she was a kid, and one in 1992 when she had to focuse on other things) :rolleyes: But she's 1-0 against Navratilova. Seles even beat S.Vicario at Wimbledon more easily then Graf did. Graf would always have been the favorite on fast surfaces and Monica the favorite on slow surfaces, but Monica had already beaten many good players on grass and she would have eventually scored wins over Graf if she was allowed to continue. Monica was improving her serve and returns, which are the 2 main important weapons to win Wimbledon according to Navratilova and Billie Jean King.

spencercarlos
Dec 25th, 2002, 09:21 PM
Here i caught another one. Monica BEAT Navratilova who is better then Graf on grass.

Here is some head to head facts for you to know more.
1987 Wimbledon Grass (O) FR Martina NAVRATILOVA 5-7 3-6
1988 Wimbledon Grass (O) FR Steffi GRAF 5-7 6-2 6-1
1989 Wimbledon Grass (O) FR Steffi GRAF 6-2 6-7 6-1

Graf beat Navratilova twice in Wimbledon for sure quite an acomplishment since Navratilova is better than Graf on Grass.


It's sad that Graf's only big win over Monica during the early 90's was overshadowed by a valid excuse, while Monica beat Steffi 3 times in slam finals fair and square.

This is what i can call sad
1989 Wimbledon Grass (O) 16 Steffi GRAF 6-0 6-1
1992 Wimbledon Grass (O) FR Steffi GRAF 6-2 6-1

Not to mention the 10-5 head 2 head lead. :rolleyes: or the 6-4 before Monica was stabbed or the 3-2 lead for Monica when Monica was "THE BEST EVER" and "UNBEATBLE" lol.

selesrules
Dec 25th, 2002, 09:23 PM
yeah go be happy about the 1989 wins when Monica was still drinking milk from her mommy and be happy about all those wins when Monica was raped as a tennis player after the stabbing. PEOPLE with a brain know better. When they were all mature and playing fair and square 90-93, Monica lead 4-3 including 3-1 in slam finals. :kiss:

And Navratilova is the greatest grass court player of all-time, even Graf saids that. It's a FACT.

selesrules
Dec 25th, 2002, 09:25 PM
I bet a 20 year old Monica would trash a 15 year old Steffi 6-0, 6-0 on grass. :kiss:

irma
Dec 25th, 2002, 09:26 PM
but that would not have count;) :p

schris
Dec 25th, 2002, 09:42 PM
I like Monica and admire her for her love and passion to sport, but I can`t call Monica the greatest :p

irma
Dec 25th, 2002, 09:49 PM
the only thing that monica is missing is a grand slam doubles titles;)

I am sure if she had won 25 grand slams (I just name a number) then certain people had claimed that she would not have been the greatest because of that;) :p

GoDominique
Dec 25th, 2002, 10:08 PM
Yes, Monica is the geatest. Whatever that means.

nuriboy
Dec 25th, 2002, 10:27 PM
Petosp is just plain foolish! Keep bringing wimbledon ī89( do u really think that the 16 yr old Monica was good enough to beat 20 yr old Steffi world no.1 at the time)as example and wimbledon ī92(where everybody beeyatched about Monicaīs grunting!). The ī92 wimbledon final is the only GS final that Steffi won from Monica before the stabbing!! Petosp donīt be foolish!! My point is that thereīs an argument for saying that Monica pre-stabbing could have been the greatest player ever!

Jericho
Dec 25th, 2002, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by selesadmirer
If you people don't know by now monica's 10 th anniversary of the stabbing is coming up...be nice.

bust out the champagne and the fancy silverware:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

gosh you guys make it seem like a special occasion, im sure monica doesnt want to remember it so why do you guys have to...

Messenger
Dec 25th, 2002, 11:07 PM
Monica is a nice person, but she is not the greatest. Perhaps in the hearts of some fans she is, but in tennis she is not and never will be among the greatest. It is generally accepted by most people that Steffi Graf and Martina Navratilova are both greater than Monica Seles. However, it is possible that she might have surpassed Graf. But life is cruel sometimees.

I like your name iLuVenuSerena.

nuriboy
Dec 26th, 2002, 12:03 AM
Youīre right Caesarīs! Life is cruel, but you donīt seem to have a great problem with the cruelness, do you?! You hypo, just happy for your beloved Steffi!!

Messenger
Dec 26th, 2002, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by nuriboy
Youīre right Caesarīs! Life is cruel, but you donīt seem to have a great problem with the cruelness, do you?! You hypo, just happy for your beloved Steffi!!

nuriboy I am the most objective person here, as I am not a fan of Graf or Seles. The question was is she the greatest ever, and the technical answer is no.

Would a Steffi fan be so willing to point out that Monica could have surpassed her? Would a Monica fan be so eager to point out that she will never be the greatest?

No, because I am neither.

nuriboy
Dec 26th, 2002, 12:25 AM
Ooh I see, Caesar.........Iīm not fan either. But justice is justice.

spencercarlos
Dec 26th, 2002, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by nuriboy
Petosp is just plain foolish! Keep bringing wimbledon ī89( do u really think that the 16 yr old Monica was good enough to beat 20 yr old Steffi world no.1 at the time)as example and wimbledon ī92(where everybody beeyatched about Monicaīs grunting!). The ī92 wimbledon final is the only GS final that Steffi won from Monica before the stabbing!! Petosp donīt be foolish!! My point is that thereīs an argument for saying that Monica pre-stabbing could have been the greatest player ever!

3 things

1.- Yes she was not good enough to beat Graf at Wimbledon, but good enough to reach a Grand Slam Semifinal at Rg taking Graf to a tense three setter??.

2.- Monica played the all of that thing about the grunting since the Quarterfinals when Tauziat started it. So she won Quarters, Semis but she was too bothered in THE FINAL?, especially since it was NOT Steffi who was going to the umpire to tell about the grunts. pfff

3.- The fact that she was the world number one in that period, does not means that was the best tennis player ever. For sure it was not. NOw if She Could? Would?, then weīll start to say things that never happened or you wish would have happenned.

Here you go see how great is Steffi that even having the chance to play the WIlliams sisters on less ocations, still Steffi has a good record against them.

Monica could not beat Venus until 2002 Australian (when Venus was injured) and Serena Williams until 2001 Los Angeles.

Now i would like to remember the 4-6 6-1 6-1 loss of Monica (in 97) vs Serena or the 6-2 6-3 at Miami 1999, While Steffi beat Serena at the first time in 99 and losing to Serena 7-5 in the third at Indian Wells 99 the week prior to Miami.

And i wont even mention the record vs Venus..

So is the Stabbing responsible for Monica not coming back at her full capabilities? or did tennis level got better in that period? who know?
I talk with results. You just say that the greatest ever time was from 1991-1993. So why canīt it be 1995-1996 when Monica was back? or why has not Monica won a slam since 96 Australian and why Graf last won at Rg 99? Its still the stabbingīs fault?.

Have you ever though on Graf knew surgery in 97 or 98 wrist surgery. Was it easy for her? But she acted as a champion and got major wins.

Messenger
Dec 26th, 2002, 12:47 AM
I did say that Monica is the greatest in her fans' hearts (as is Steffi) http://www.officialforum.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

selesrules
Dec 26th, 2002, 12:51 AM
Steffi never played the Williams when they were grandslam champions. If she had played Venus in year 2000 or 2001, or Serena in 2002, Graf would have been trashed. That's the thing with Steffi, she is LUCKY. She had the luxury to score many wins against Monica, Hingis, Davenport, Williams when they were still incomplete players or very young. And she had the luxury of having one of her fans stab the opponent who was dominating the game for years because Steffi sucked so much and couldn't be the best. Steffi Graf is OVERRATED.

Messenger
Dec 26th, 2002, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by selesrules
Steffi never played the Williams when they were grandslam champions. If she had played Venus in year 2000 or 2001, or Serena in 2002, Graf would have been trashed. That's the thing with Steffi, she is LUCKY. She had the luxury to score many wins against Monica, Hingis, Davenport, Williams when they were still incomplete players or very young. And she had the luxury of having one of her fans stab the opponent who was dominating the game for years because Steffi sucked so much and couldn't be the best. Steffi Graf is OVERRATED.

She is only overrated if you take her 22 GS titles at face value. And no one does that.

selesrules
Dec 26th, 2002, 12:58 AM
22 slams is a FAKE number based on a knife. Monica should be with that number, not Steffi. 1990-1993 proved that, there was no sign of change Monica was getting stronger. Monica had won the last 3 frenchs, the last 3 australiens, the last 3 wta chmps and the last 2 US Opens and was 3-1 in slam finals against Steffi. Steffi was lucky to win Wimbledon because Monica didn't play in 1991, and in 1992 she had destraction. Then all of a sudden Monica is out because of a Steffi fan and Steffi starts winning again. What an INSULT. 22 slams MY ASS.

spencercarlos
Dec 26th, 2002, 01:06 AM
Originally posted by selesrules
Steffi never played the Williams when they were grandslam champions. If she had played Venus in year 2000 or 2001, or Serena in 2002, Graf would have been trashed. That's the thing with Steffi, she is LUCKY. She had the luxury to score many wins against Monica, Hingis, Davenport, Williams when they were still incomplete players or very young. And she had the luxury of having one of her fans stab the opponent who was dominating the game for years because Steffi sucked so much and couldn't be the best. Steffi Graf is OVERRATED.


Another Foolish here... you make yourself seen like a dumb ok here i go. Monica playing them when they were coming and unexperienced ( THESE WORDS THE ONES THAT YOU LIKE TO USE ) by the way i say i really respect these players cause they are pretty especiall. Same for Monica when she was coming in 1988.

Seles vs Serena before 1999 Usopen
1997 Chicago Carpet (I) QF Serena WILLIAMS 4-6 6-1 6-1
1999 Key Biscayne Hard (O) 16 Serena WILLIAMS 6-2 6-3

Seles vs Venus before 1999 Usopen
1998 Stanford Hard (O) SF Venus WILLIAMS 6-3 6-4
1999 New Haven Hard (O) SF Venus WILLIAMS 6-1 6-3

Graf vs Serena
1999 Sydney Hard (O) 16 Steffi GRAF 6-2 3-6 7-5
1999 Indian Wells Hard (O) FR Serena WILLIAMS 6-3 3-6 7-5

Graf vs Venus
1996 Manhattan Beach Hard (O) 16 Steffi GRAF 6-4 6-4
1999 Sydney Hard (O) QF Steffi GRAF 4-6 6-2 6-4
1999 Hanover Carpet (I) SF Venus WILLIAMS 6-3 3-6 6-3
1999 Key Biscayne Hard (O) SF Venus WILLIAMS 6-2 6-4
1999 Wimbledon Grass (O) QF Steffi GRAF 6-2 3-6 6-4

Obviously Steffi has never been TRASHED 6-1 or 6-0 in a set by the Williamses while Monica has.

And yes you predict Seles to WOULD HAVE or have won everything and Steffi to be trashed. How Jealous and stupid.

nuriboy
Dec 26th, 2002, 01:12 AM
Petosp: I donīt have to say anything more. Read the last posts of Selesrules and you get some very STRONG arguments for Monica greatest. You canīt compare knee injuries to such a horrible incident as a stabbing! Whatīs wrong with you?! If it was you I would bet that you wouldnīt even be playing!!

selesrules
Dec 26th, 2002, 01:12 AM
Fact 1: It was a stabbed Monica with a destroyed career who played them. Someone who doesn't have the same outlook on tennis, someone who is a shadow of her former self.

Fact 2: Steffi NEVER beat the Williams when they were slam champions. Monica BEAT BOTH OF THEM when they were slam champions.

Fact 3: Shuv fact 1 and 2 up your ass.

selesrules
Dec 26th, 2002, 01:14 AM
You know what's sad? It's not Parche because he's a lunatic, but it's the rest of the Graf fans because they do not allow Monica fans to claim that she's the greatest. They just want to ignore what happened since it makes them look better. When you put down Monica and shuv 22 slams and everything that happened after the stabbing in Monica fans' faces, it makes you WORST then Parche because you are supporting what he did by ignoring the effect it has. Get lives, even better, get morals.

spencercarlos
Dec 26th, 2002, 01:28 AM
No one argue the fact of that horrible stabbing, its the worst thing ever tennis has had and especially in the live of a young woman at the top of her sport.

But you canīt erase with the fact that Monica was not esperienced and say that Steffiīs golden slam is fluke or winning 8/9 slams in 1988/1990 are fluke as well.

Monica is a great champion in and off the court. But Steffi is a champion as well. You can say fluke or not Steffi has 22 slams and Monica has 9.

Monica 1991-1993 period was not the best ever by any mean.
Steffi for sure reached a higher level of tennis both tecnically and phisically.

Steffi could beat the sisters in 99 Monica never did. Steffi could score 3 wins vs Davenport while Monica had to wait from 1997 to 2002 to score a win vs Lindsay. And Steffi is not responsable for that. Steffi is not responsable for Monicaīs not wanting to work on her fitness. Basically Steffi worked her butt hard on practise sessions, etc while Monica did not, and it work wonder for Steffi, she could won more than Monica.

You count Monicaīs win, whenever they come, and they are awesome and the best ever. But when we talk about Graf wins, they are poor, or players were not at their best.

The diference between Monica and Steffi is that Steffi could stay at the top of the game in a longer period of time than Monica. No one denies that Monica was at the top in 1991-early 1993, for sure she was.

She just could not get over the stabbing as you say???
or maybe she just was not as hungry for winning as she was before??
or maybe tennis improved and players were better??
or maybe a combination of the three, who knows.

Jericho
Dec 26th, 2002, 01:54 AM
Originally posted by Caesar's Messenger
I like your name iLuVenuSerena.

thanks :kiss: :wavey: :D ;)

nuriboy
Dec 26th, 2002, 01:57 AM
Petosp: Now I know for sure youīre a fool! If you donīt play for more than two years after such an icident you can not be at the same level you once was! Weīre not talking about Steffiīs golden slam or anything before that Monica took over. It is what happened AFTER( canīt you READ for once or what?) the stabbing that is the problem. If it wasnīt for the stabbing there is NO WAY, I repeat NO WAY that Steffi wins 22 GS!! Because Monica was on a driving seat!! At the time of the stabbing Steffi wasnīt even in the same class as Monica. Monica had beaten her at Auz open ī93 and we all know if it wasnīt for the stabbing she would have won the GS that year, because no one could beat her!! Of course Steffi could stay at the top for longer period: with the help of a knife that is!!

Messenger
Dec 26th, 2002, 02:05 AM
Originally posted by selesrules
22 slams is a FAKE number based on a knife. Monica should be with that number, not Steffi. 1990-1993 proved that, there was no sign of change Monica was getting stronger. Monica had won the last 3 frenchs, the last 3 australiens, the last 3 wta chmps and the last 2 US Opens and was 3-1 in slam finals against Steffi. Steffi was lucky to win Wimbledon because Monica didn't play in 1991, and in 1992 she had destraction. Then all of a sudden Monica is out because of a Steffi fan and Steffi starts winning again. What an INSULT. 22 slams MY ASS.

Do you read other people's posts? Any? Or do you just recite the same sentences over and over again?

Kiswana
Dec 26th, 2002, 02:14 AM
One of the greatest but not THE greatest.

spencercarlos
Dec 26th, 2002, 02:29 AM
Originally posted by nuriboy
Petosp:Monica had beaten her at Auz open ī93 and we all know if it wasnīt for the stabbing she would have won the GS that year, because no one could beat her!! Of course Steffi could stay at the top for longer period: with the help of a knife that is!!

You are getting too far when you say she would have won the GS and that NO ONE COULD BEAT Her because its not true.
Graf, Navratilova,Sabatini and Arantxa were notching some wins over Seles in that period 1991-1993.

fammmmedspin
Dec 26th, 2002, 04:23 AM
If you accept that Monica's results of 1989 are not indicative and Monica's wins of 1990 are offset by Steffis in 1991, the only reference you have for the merits of Graf and Seles pre-attack is 3 matches in 1992/3.

1992-05-25 Roland Garros Clay F Monica Seles (USA) 6-2 3-6 10-8
1992-06-22 Wimbledon Grass F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-2 6-1
1993-01-18 Australian Open Hardcourt F Monica Seles (USA) 4-6 6-3 6-2

How anyone can extrapolate what would have happened later from 3 results isn't clear - its less clear still when the results take that form and Wimbledon is confused by the gruntless factor. If you, for example took Sabatini's results for her two best years against Graf, where there are 3 times as many results, you would predict a brilliant Grand Slam record for Gabi and few wins for Graf after 1991.
If you argue, as you probably have to, that AO93 is the significant win because it displays mental dominance, the argument becomes even stranger because you are now arguing from one example. Steffi's record is littered with significant defeats or periods of difficulty against players she later dominates - Capriati, Pierce and Coetzer jump out on this basis as being greater players than Graf or Seles (Coetzer and Pierce were more dominant over Graf in their matches).
Nor is Monica, relatively, that dominant on the tour - as a recent thread showed with Serena, very good does not equal "the greatest" when you compare it to players who lose one or two matches a year. If you look at Monica's loss (5?) record for her best year 1992(?) she is more vulnerable than Graf or Martina N at their best.
We don't know how Monica would have met future challenges. We know Steffi rose to the task and learnt how to beat everyone else who rose to challenge her including Williamses Mark1 , but there is no way of knowing if Monica would have kept up with or gone ahead of Graf. We don't know either if Monica could have done better against Hingis or ASV after 1997, or whether her game could have improved to meet the other challengers of 1993 onward . Nor do we know how Monica's game since 1995 compares with what it might have been if she hadn't been stabbed. Its difficult enough to say what Monica is missing today without making assumptions about why she is missing it and whether she might have it if her life hadn't been changed by a lunatic.
Monica's potential remains unknown and unknowable. She isn't alone in this among the great tennis players - a group which includes some like Little Mo with the same or better claims to greatness- though the reason Monica is in this special category remains an awful one.

irma
Dec 26th, 2002, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by Caesar's Messenger
I did say that Monica is the greatest in her fans' hearts (as is Steffi) http://www.officialforum.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

and that's how it should be :D

way
Dec 26th, 2002, 09:52 AM
Fammedspin, great post, really spot on.
Thank you.
An end to a sad streak of insulting posts.
Insulting for Monica especially, that is.
Thanks again.

nuriboy
Dec 26th, 2002, 11:31 AM
fammedspin: Great post et al. Really cool. But to which challenge did Steffi rise?! To me if it wasnīt for the stabbing Monica would have stayed ahead of steffi. Sure Steffi could have won once in a while but still think that Monica would win most of the time. But Iīm sure some Steffi- fans will keep saying: tja,tja ...if, if. Now that she set the records that is......cause deep in their hearts they all know what would have happened if not for a knife! But thatīs life....

way
Dec 26th, 2002, 01:04 PM
All those who think Graf is the greateast (or one of) is because of the way she played, not because of the way she played when Seles was stabbed.
(which is a nonsense AT ANY RATE)

And the more I hear all these people blattering about the monstruosity of the aggrression Monica underwent, the more i'm conviced they don't give a damn about a person being stabbed.
They care about Monica being stabbed.
There's a big difference.
The second ones wouldn't think too much before putting a knife into Graf's back, could they only turn back the clock to the mid 90s.
I frankly pity them.

selesrules
Dec 26th, 2002, 01:09 PM
The only pity is Graf fans because after the stabbing instead of having respect and morals and saying something like "Monica could have become the greatest, we will never know. The Monica fans have the right to claim that.", they say "too bad, the bottom line is Steffi has 22 slams and Monica has 9. They even come her to this thread and forbid Monica fans to say that she's the greatest". That is the only thing that is SICK. A graf fan stabbed Monica to make Graf better, and the rest of the Graf fans continue it by acting insensitive and shuving Graf's records in our face and putting Monica's career down by ignoring the stabbing.

anton
Dec 26th, 2002, 01:18 PM
no. maybe if she would have retired before she starting losing all the grand slams there would be an outside shot but now she is dragging her name through the mud!!!

irma
Dec 26th, 2002, 01:27 PM
who said monica fans can't say that she is the "greatest" (since r kelly I hate that word even more)

steffi fans are steffi fans and they have a right to think she is the greatest too and that's something certain monica fans can't accept since that's immoral lol :rolleyes:

nuriboy
Dec 26th, 2002, 01:46 PM
What do you think, way?! Whoīs the greatest??!! Iīm not a fan of Monica, but I think you have to agree that if not for the stabbing Steffiīs legacy would have been less impressive. I donīt agree with you that the Steffi fans think she is greatest because of the way she played, but because of the numbers of GSī she has.

way
Dec 26th, 2002, 01:49 PM
S:
Monica could have become the greatest, we will never know. The Monica fans have the right to claim that.

Way.
No "sensitive" people deny that.
Don't knpw (and dont' care) about fans.

The bottom line remains that
I believe Graf (and 5 more, to be honest) are the greatest STABBING OR NOT.
I believe Seles is not the greatest, STABBING OR NOT (and that's only my opinion, because, as I stated above, I BELIEVE SELES MIGHT HAVE WON MORE, we'll never know and that HER FANS CAN CLAIM SHE WAS BOUND TO BE THE GREATEST)

and, especially:
............they don't give a damn about a person being stabbed.
They care about Monica being stabbed.
There's a big difference.
The second ones wouldn't think too much before putting a knife into Graf's back, could they only turn back the clock to the mid 90s........

way
Dec 26th, 2002, 01:53 PM
For Nuri:
The greatest ever, to me, is a choice any single person can make among six players, who are, in chronological order:
Suzanne Lenglen
Helen Wills
Maureen Connolly
Margaret Court
Martina Navratilova
Steffi Graf
The choice depends on the criteria you use (single>Graf, doubles > Navra, trophies > Court and so on)

In my opinion.

nuriboy
Dec 26th, 2002, 02:20 PM
Way:And why canīt Monica fall in the group?! Give me a logical explanation why Steffi can fall in that group and Monica sans stabbing canīt?! Your logic is a bit strange to me. Because than you have to look at steffiīs throphies pre- stabbing and they are indentical with each other. I insist that Monica could have been pretty even with Steffi or any of your greats if the stabbing didnīt take place.

way
Dec 26th, 2002, 02:49 PM
Oh, my God!!!
(hope this is not invoking God's name in vain, especially in Xmas time)
:)

Ok, again:
1. The group of greatest is MY OPINION, not the truth. (see my last post)
2. I (me, myself, I) would NOT put Seles in the bunch, but if you think she must be in, go ahead.
(see my last-but-one post) because
3. anyone is entitled to his opinion (needless to say)
(see answer to Selesrules)

Now if you want to ask me why Seles (IN MY OPINION) is not in the bunch of the *alltime* greats, now that's another story.
And I dont' think here it's a good place to have the quiet debate I'd like to.
Come in BFTP if you feel like.

nuriboy
Dec 26th, 2002, 03:05 PM
BFTP? Whatīs that?

way
Dec 26th, 2002, 03:11 PM
Nuriboy, before I answer your question.
was my post clear enough?
can you see my point?
i wouldn't like you to tell me again in 5' time why I think.....:)

fammmmedspin
Dec 26th, 2002, 03:30 PM
Nuriboy asked "But to which challenge did Steffi rise?!"

Obviously the lunatic German removed one great challenge for 2 years and changed Monica in ways even Monica doesn't know (stress is partly chemical, and not controllable by the person it harms) The point I was trying to make was that I don't see Graf's career as one long continuous story of success as she played on a constant, predictable, level above everyone else. Some Steffi fans might disagree, but I don't remember it that way. Steffi's game changes as do her strengths. I recall doing lots and lots of room pacing as she battled through a series of contenders who rose to challenge her - Sabatini, Pierce, Coetzer, Novotna, ASV, Hingis to name a few. Graf GS finals like FO93, Fo99, W91, W93, W95, W96 were extremely bad for the blood pressure. Part of Graf's greatness is that, after periods of great difficulty, she adapted (rose to the challenge) and made herself beat these people (or made them beat themselves)

That, incidently, I think, is one, important but misunderstood, reason why some people think Serena's brilliant grand slam record in 2002 was less involving/competitive to watch than Steffi's similar successes (or indeed Monica's). With Serena, I just felt "resistance is futile" - with Steffi you only knew she had won when the last ball was missed - or Virginia Wade told you things were so bad she had no chance left. You just don't get the feel of Graf's time at the top by looking at her totals or even her scores.

The point from this is that no one knows if Graf would have learnt to beat Monica too. No one knows who would have adapted better. There are thousands of unknowns - from Steffi's willpower post AO93 to Monica's fitness as she got older. Posters with more technical knowledge might discuss which player had the greatest technical weaknesses and strengths which might have been exploited - but how can you predict how the psychology of the conflict would have developed particularly as Monica matured? We also didn't get to see how Monica would have coped with the people who did challenge Steffi - there is no reason to assume she wouldn't have had her problems too. Monica might have won tons more slams or Steffi might have just played even better - either way tennis lost out.

I see the other players with claims to greatness have now entered the match. As we don't seem to be able to measure cruelly forshortened greatness ( which is tragic if it happens to you whether your name is Maureen, Monica or Mirjana) against records - or all-roundedness versus singles achievement - or "level of competition", I look forward to threads on Suzanne versus Serena or Maureen v Monica or Helen v Steffi.

selesrules
Dec 26th, 2002, 03:50 PM
Monica was stabbed on a tennis court, had to deal with the fact that her career was destroyed, had all sort of mental problems that every victim has to deal with, rehabilitation, lost confidence, but she cameback and won a GRANDSLAM. Most people thought she would have problems being in the top50, but she cameback after all of the years, all what she went through, and won a GRANDSLAM. That to me this is bigger then any other tennis accomplishement. The end.

Joseosu19
Dec 26th, 2002, 03:56 PM
No, we can't call her the greatest.

selesrules
Dec 26th, 2002, 03:57 PM
then we can't call Steffi as the greatest either.

way
Dec 26th, 2002, 04:03 PM
S:then we can't call Steffi as the greatest either.

Didn't you say "the end"?
:)
And why should that be, pray you?
CAN YOU REALIZE STEFFI'S REAL GREATNESS (grand slam, golden slam that is, weeks n1 in a row, 14 finals in a row, 5 slams in a row, great on ALL surfaces, ALL slams defended) WAS ACHIEVED BEFORE THE STABBING?
If there are "fanatics" who keep shoving up into your faces the 22 >9, it's their loss, not yours!
Graf is surely ashamed of such people, as Seles is surely ashamed of people who "need" the stabbing to state Seles's greatness.
If you think Seles is the greatest because of the stabbing, it means what she did before wasn't enough for you.

selesrules
Dec 26th, 2002, 04:06 PM
If Steffi was stabbed in 1988, she would have never accomplished all these things.

nuriboy
Dec 26th, 2002, 04:08 PM
Way: I understand....itīs your opinion. If you donīt like Monica you donīt. End of story....thereīs nothing in the world that will change your perciption of her or her achievements pre- stabbing in comparison to Steffi pre- stabbing. Thatī s what I understand.

way
Dec 26th, 2002, 04:13 PM
S:
If Steffi was stabbed in 1988, she would have never accomplished all these things

That's what you dream of every night, isn't it?
I really think a wonderful person as Monica would be ashamed of you.
(no ill feelings meant)
And for the record, had Graf fulfilled your dreams and died in 88, she wouldn't have had a career at all, what are you talking about?

nuriboy
Dec 26th, 2002, 04:16 PM
Way: You are mistaken. Ok...Steffi did win the golden slam et al before the stabbing, but thatīs it! Monica pre-stabbing vs Steffiīs acomplishments pre-stabbing are pretty even.

Nearly same amount of GSīs.
almost as much time no.1
the only thing Steffi has is that she won wimbledon and Monica didnīt.
But further I canīt see anything else what makes you thing that makes you such a fervent believer for Steffi and not for Moninca, other that you donīt like Monica. If you day that then...itīs your opinion. But donīt come telling: stats,stats because the stats arenīt so clearly clearly in favor of Steffi.

selesrules
Dec 26th, 2002, 04:17 PM
way, get a life. It's not my dream to see people get hurt, I'm just showing you how ignorant you are when you make your comments. What I said is true.

If Steffi was stabbed at her prime, she would have never accomplished all these things.

CASE CLOSED.

way
Dec 26th, 2002, 04:24 PM
Nuri, ok, that's (more or less) what I meant, yes.
But i'm not saying i DONT LIKE Seles (what has *liking* to do with it?).
I just dont' think she's in the alltime top, that's all.
And no role for stabbings.
My *technical* opinion.

nuriboy
Dec 26th, 2002, 04:25 PM
Way: Iīve to agree with Seles. When Seles got stabbed it was in her PRIME!! I think you have to recognize this or otherwise the discussion is senseless! If Steffi got stabbed in 88 ( when she was entering her prime, Iīm not saying it should have happened or anything! Donīt be foolish. I know italians and they are not foolish, so donīt put them to shame!!) she would have never acomplished the other things she achieved!! Thatīs a fact. Someone cannot stay two years away from the game( two years in your prime) and be expected to win again! You see Way?! Thatīs why we should give exception to Seles.

MarcusRock
Dec 26th, 2002, 04:26 PM
My goodness. All those who expected a rational discussion about this to unfold, raise your hands.

How is anyone going to crown someone the greatest based on a "what if so and so didn't happen" scenario? It DID happen people. It sucks, but it did. Progress happens when we live in reality. So to answer the original thread question in three words, NO WE CANNOT.

selesrules
Dec 26th, 2002, 04:28 PM
MarcusRock, WHAT *******DID******* happen is that Monica was surpassing Graf until a Graf fan stabbed her. We are talking about what ***********DID********** happen. :rolleyes:

NJjeff
Dec 26th, 2002, 04:32 PM
The stabbing happened. No one can go back and change that, but the greatest ever question is not a hypothetical one... I thnk it's based on results of tennis matches.

Graf owns a far superior record than Seles. She is one of the few woman worthy of the best ever title. Seles is not. She is a beloved champion who has accomplished a ton, overcame tragedies, and inspired her fans. And it's clear her fans are great supporters...

way
Dec 26th, 2002, 04:38 PM
No, i don't see it like this.
I was 40 at the time, i had been following tennis for 20 yrs and my opinion ( I already said that lot of times here discussing with DisposableHero and others) is Graf was resurpassing her.
But these are feelings you can't have *posthumously*, just reading results.
And that anyhow we'll never know what would have happened.

But if you think that my opinion is wrong is no problem, Nuriboy.
ANY opinion is wrong in the eyes of EVERYBODY else.
The point is keeping talking without degrading to insults.

And, by the way, i owed you the info on BFTP.
It's the acronym for "Blasts from the Past", another thread in this board, (the best one :) ), in which there are mostly "oldies" as me and in which discussions are always kept low profile in tone but high profile in content.
Come take a look.
It's also moderated by two of my best friends here, from whom I learned a lot in tennis and enormously in how to behave in posting.
I cant' speak for them, but i'll be very happy to see you there.

MarcusRock
Dec 26th, 2002, 04:40 PM
Exactly NJjeff but some just can't accept that and thus we have a billion threads like this.

nuriboy
Dec 26th, 2002, 04:42 PM
Way: I thought you were looking at stats?! So now it isnīt stats anymore, but technique?! If technique is the criteria, then players like Evert and Hingis should be the greatest then, shouldnī t they?!

nuriboy
Dec 26th, 2002, 04:44 PM
Ok dan Way....Blast from the past, eh?! Huuummm.....cool name!

nuriboy
Dec 26th, 2002, 04:54 PM
NjJeff: Of course it is easy to say such things when your Steffi has already acomplished them.....and Monica can never acomplish them anymore!!

way
Dec 26th, 2002, 05:32 PM
No, Nuriboy.
If *technique* is the criteria is Lenglen and Navratilova hands down.
No room for Graf, Evert and her likes.
God, don't you even know Evert was a baseline player?
And that the best (and unfortunately) the last of serve and volleyers (the most appreciated, classic and difficult *technique*) was Martina Navratilova?

nuriboy
Dec 26th, 2002, 06:04 PM
So way how come are you saying Steffiīs the greatest then?!

way
Dec 26th, 2002, 06:22 PM
NOOOO!!!
I can't believe this!
Is that some kind of a Christmas joke?
Ok, this time i'll just copy/paste what I said a couple of hrs ago
(and for the last two years, that is)
:)



For Nuri:
The greatest ever, to me, is a choice any single person can make among six players, who are, in chronological order:
Suzanne Lenglen
Helen Wills
Maureen Connolly
Margaret Court
Martina Navratilova
Steffi Graf
The choice depends on the criteria you use (single>Graf, doubles > Navra, trophies > Court and so on)

In my opinion.

nuriboy
Dec 26th, 2002, 06:41 PM
youīre saying it yourself: single: graf! Or am I mistaken?!

anton
Dec 26th, 2002, 07:51 PM
please do not talk about steffi being stabbed!!! obne person is mroe than enough!!! also monica needs to get into shape. she reminds me of agassi a few years ago. he was wasting his talent and i did not watch him play because he was shamefull and pathetic!!! monica LOSE SOME WEIGHT before it is too late!!! :(

nuriboy
Dec 26th, 2002, 08:27 PM
Anton: Itīs already too late because of the stabbing. Donīt be foolish!!

selesrules
Dec 26th, 2002, 10:06 PM
Monica was going for her 4th consecutive French Open, 4th consecutive Australien Open, 4th consecutive Wta championship, 3rd consecutive US Open. All this was stopped with a knife, and Steffi *finally* after years and years was able to win them again. Monica was going for HISTORY, do you know how this affected her?? And do you know how this affected tennis history?? THIS IS **HUGE**. 80% of people back in 1993 would have said that Monica would end up with more slams then Graf. Graf was someone from the past who couldn't retain her throne, Monica was THE ULTIMATE champion. This will *ALWAYS* be the fact. Monica was 3-1 in slam finals against Graf and 1-0 against Navratilova proving that she was the ultimate champion and no.1 player, they were just "contenders". Monica will always be the best and after the stabbing it didn't matter if she could win 1 more match or not, everybody knew that she would never be the same. She was known for her mental strength, this was taken away and everything changed forever. It is ASTONISHING that she was able somehow to win a slam after that incident and to remain in the top5 for all these years. She's just a shadow of her former self in every way, her mentality, the injustice, the records, the confidence, whenever she steps on the court. If Monica was never stabbed, she would have become the Pete Sampras of tennis.

MarcusRock
Dec 26th, 2002, 10:13 PM
Key word: "would" which should read "could," by the way. It was NOT a forgone conclusion. Nothing is.

P.S. - You're STILL at this? Sheesh.

selesrules
Dec 26th, 2002, 10:19 PM
WITHOUT THE KNIFE: The "could" of Monica is MUCH bigger then the "could" of Steffi. 80% of people back in 1993 would have said that Monica would end up with more slams then Graf. The knife had the purpose of changing that. If you think that the knife is part of tennis talent then it's your choice, but it's NOT. On pure talent: Monica was destined to be the greatest, NOT steffi. A KNIFE changed that, NOT TENNIS. Everything that happened after with Steffi winning again and Monica crying, is FAKE. Monica proved for years that she was the ultimate: 4-1 vs Graf and Navratilova in slam finals and dominating the game. It's the knife that changed that, and the knife isn't part of talent or tennis. CASE CLOSED.

MarcusRock
Dec 26th, 2002, 10:32 PM
Not a case closed but rather a case that will continue to be discussed over and over but won't change what's already happened. It's a good thing Monica is playing tennis instead of playing victim all the time. One would think that'd rub off on some fans. Guess not.

P.S. - I never knew that winning Grand Slams was fake until now. Thanks for the enlightenment. How's the weather in your world?

nuriboy
Dec 26th, 2002, 10:35 PM
Marcus: Seles has a point there. You have to at least acknowledge that!!

way
Dec 26th, 2002, 11:54 PM
Ok, one more copy/paste for Nuri:
:)


If *technique* is the criteria is Lenglen and Navratilova hands down.
No room for Graf, Evert and her likes.
God, don't you even know Evert was a baseline player?
And that the best (and unfortunately) the last of serve and volleyers (the most appreciated, classic and difficult *technique*) was Martina Navratilova?

....and.......

The choice depends on the criteria you use (single>Graf, doubles > Navra, trophies > Court and so on)

so why do you ask me about Graf?
It's because her her name obsesses you, adimit it!
Otherwise you'd have accused me of having chosen Navratilova as best allaround (which is more than singles), or Court fro being the winningest (which is again more than "singles")
Did you know (but I know that this'll be the upteenth question you won't answer) she (Court) won 62/SIXTYTWO SLAMS?
Am I biased towards Navratilova and Court now?
:wavey:

nuriboy
Dec 27th, 2002, 01:30 AM
You didnīt say anything about overall and winningest,way! I donīt care as Monica will never enter your equation anyways!! youīre not biased to steffi, but you make sure thereīs formula to fit her as the greatest ever??!!

dave05
Dec 30th, 2002, 10:00 AM
Without doubt a two-year window of unsurpassed dominance.
A 10th slam would sure propell her into Top 5 greatest players so we can only hope for that.
What you can say is no player has produced ever such an aura of tennis excitement when she just steps onto the court a living legend in her own right.