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View Full Version : Were kournikova and Dementieva's GS Semi's a fluke?


DEETHELICK
Dec 23rd, 2002, 11:44 PM
Just thinking abt this, especially in relation to Kim, Jelena and Justine. These gals made the Top 10 and have stayed there, Anna and Elena broke into the Top 10 and left just as easy....

Who did Elena and Anna beat to make the SFs?

And were they really flukes. No offence to either gal, but their progress seems stunted, but I'm looking to an action packed 2003 for them.

Wat do y'all think?

auntie janie
Dec 23rd, 2002, 11:47 PM
I don't think I will touch this one with a 1--foot-pole ...

DEETHELICK
Dec 23rd, 2002, 11:57 PM
LOL Janie, I don't think that this topic should be interpreted as offensive.

Both girls have undeniable talent, but maybe they produced too much too soon in their careers, as they have been having a dip in terms of stellar results. I'm not doubting talent, I'm thinking that maybe they reached these GS Semi's earlier than they should have?

Why don't you touch it with a 2--foot--pole instead? :)

Oooops, I forgot to add, I'm a massive Elena fan, so there really is no hidden meaning in this post. :)

nuriboy
Dec 24th, 2002, 12:12 AM
It is no fluke perce perce.....but itīs obvious that theyīre stagnating! Whatīs wrong with these blonde russians anyhow?! Seem they canīt win a title!!! Right now if youīre Russian you have to go with Myskina and Bovina!

Meesh
Dec 24th, 2002, 12:12 AM
OK, since there is no hidden agenda:

2000 US OPEN... ELENA D.

128 W Tara SNYDER (USA) 7-5 6-1
64 W Sylvia PLISCHKE (AUT) 6-4 7-6
32 W Conchita MARTINEZ (ESP) 6-4 6-1
16 W Lilia OSTERLOH (USA) 6-3 6-7 7-6
QF W Anke HUBER (GER) 6-1 3-6 6-3
SF L Lindsay DAVENPORT (USA) 2-6 6-7

Meesh
Dec 24th, 2002, 12:15 AM
Anna 1997 Semi's at Wimbledon:

128 W Chanda RUBIN (USA)6-1 6-1
64 W Barbara RITTNER (GER) 4-6 7-6 6-3
32 W Anke HUBER (GER) 3-6 6-4 6-4
16 W Helena SUKOVA (CZE) 2-6 6-2 6-3
QF W Iva MAJOLI (CRO) 7-6 6-4
SF L Martina HINGIS (SUI) 3-6 2-6

auntie janie
Dec 24th, 2002, 12:16 AM
Okay! But prepare yourself for the coming Outrage of the Masses! ... :eek:

Kournikova reached her Wimbledon semifinal at age 16. She will be 22 when the next Wimbledon rolls around. She has reached only a single Slam quarterfinal since then.
In the intervening years, the level of the womens' game has advanced by leaps and bounds, while Anna's game stagnated. Now she is working hard, but she has all those years of Alla-training to overcome.
So for her, that achievement did turn out to be a fluke. So far.

Dementieva reached her US Open semifinal when she was not well-known at all on the Tour. Now everyone knows her game, which has not improved since that time. She has plenty of potential if she ever decides to take on a full-time, travelling coach and seriously devote herself to improving her game. If not, then her achievement, too, will turn out to be a one-off.

Meesh
Dec 24th, 2002, 12:17 AM
I agree w/ Janie on this one,
I'm not sure but didn't both had injuries soon after these results?

aussiefan83
Dec 24th, 2002, 12:17 AM
lets not forget that anna was 15 or whatever when she reached the semi's, so no matter what it was a great achievement.

nuriboy
Dec 24th, 2002, 12:18 AM
Exactly Janie.....if you see it that way you can call it a fluke, because it was more that they got a LUCKY draw( I mean Lila Osterloh?????!!!!) than anything else. People caught up with their games and it was end of story!!

aussiefan83
Dec 24th, 2002, 12:21 AM
anna did beat, rubin huber and majoli, as well as an experienced sukova (juniors often struggle with experienced players- especially on grass).

rightous
Dec 24th, 2002, 12:21 AM
Elena is way too inconsistent, she ahs the weapons, but not the mental toughness or court brain, she hasn't changed her game, she should come to net more and its good she now plays doubles.

Anna who knows, again she has the weapons, her shot choice and meantl toughness are issues and also she has had injuries.

Philip
Dec 24th, 2002, 12:22 AM
both players beat grandslam champions on their ways, Elena Conchita, and Anna Iva, who ofcourse had just came from her brilliant win at Roland Garros.

I wouldn't say it was a fluke to get their GS Semi spots.
However i'd say neither has lived up to the potencial they both seemed to display at these times.

DEETHELICK
Dec 24th, 2002, 12:24 AM
See, but both girls beat three formidable players

Anna: Chanda, Anke and Iva
Elena : Plishcke, Martinez and Anke

And Elena pulling out that win against osterloh showed she was mentally strong.

But as you guys have stated, the girls were young, which I feel could be a reason why their games didn't develop. Maybe they thought 'I've reached a GS Semi with this game style, i can go further but practicing more' rather than making improvements.

I also agree with janie, if their games don't move forward, they will be one hit wonders, which would be a great shame.

Thanks for info Meesh :)

GoDominique
Dec 24th, 2002, 12:29 AM
Elena D. certainly had a lucky draw. She should have played Dominique van Roost in the 4th round, who had to retire against Osterloh. Elena defeated Osterloh with a very close (and lucky) win.
Then QF win against choking Anke. :rolleyes: After an awful start, Anke pretty much dominated and led 3-1 in the 3rd, just to play crappy again.
So Elena was lucky to reach SF, however she proved there (and later at the Chase) that she deserved it with a good fight against Lindsay. So it was not a fluke IMO because Elena is certainly still able to reach semifinals if she finally changes some things in her tennis and her life.

nuriboy
Dec 24th, 2002, 12:30 AM
Deetlechick...interesting point!! I think that got complacent with themselves and didnīt want to keep working hard to improve. But their problems are more mental. Elena has had many matches where she played just crap in tiebreakers or on breakpoints!! Anna starts doublefaulting like thereīs no tomorrow!!

Crazy Canuck
Dec 24th, 2002, 12:38 AM
As already pointed out, Elena also did well at the Chase as well as the Olympics that year... so if her sla run was a fluke, than all three would have to be...

DEETHELICK
Dec 24th, 2002, 12:48 AM
Rebecca, in that department, I'd say Elena has the edge over Anna, she has a Silver medal.

Like Elena @ the Chase, Anna had a big run in Miami, maybe they both overperformed for a while?

Maybe I need to reiterate what I mean by fluke, I mean that at that point in time, maybe those results did exceed their potential.

Maybe we wouldnt have had questioned them both if we'd seen them reach a SF and progress, rather than stagnate.

GoDominique, I wouldn't say Elenas' wins were flukes. The run over the course of the GS may have been (Elena has only made it to the 4th rd since) but each win was deserved. I'm looking at her GS run in its entirety over her career.

aussiefan83
Dec 24th, 2002, 12:50 AM
great point rebecca, and anna had made the 4th round at the us open the yr before, and she beat sanchez vicario and coetzer as well that yr (who were both top 10 back then i think).

GoDominique
Dec 24th, 2002, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by DEETHELICK
GoDominique, I wouldn't say Elenas' wins were flukes. The run over the course of the GS may have been (Elena has only made it to the 4th rd since) but each win was deserved. I'm looking at her GS run in its entirety over her career.

Well, that's exactly what I said. :confused:

tennisIlove09
Dec 24th, 2002, 12:55 AM
I think Dementieva was fearless. I think in a tournament before the open, she lost to Davenport in a close match...?

Then at the Open, she just played the best. She beat Huber, who had beat Pierce. And she came back against Lindsay. Lindsay was up something like 62 52.

And she continued at the Olympics and the Chase. It almost went to her head.

Kournikova had some great wins...Majoli had just won the French. And I've always thought Grass maybe Anna's BEST surface.

I don't think either was a fluke...

Venus Forever
Dec 24th, 2002, 02:28 AM
Elena's was definitely a fluke. What has she done since?? Absolutely nothing. She had one period of greatness from September to November of that year and departed afterwards.

Anna was a semi-fluke. She was good back then, or at least better than now. She can definitely beat the top players, but just has not completely matured yet. She was young and just full of energy, I guess the same can go with Elena.

Volcana
Dec 24th, 2002, 02:41 AM
They both beat top ten players along the way to the semis. But realistically, this is like Venus's final in 1997. It's an accomplishment above their actual ability at the time.

Howevr, look at what happened. All three players were constantly injured. (Remember when Venus' constant injuries were going to prevent her from being #1 or winning GS titles? My how time flies!:)) Anna and Elena both play through as long as they can, and play a lot. Venus pulls out of tournaments if she strains her wrist lifting luggage. And takes a lot of shit for it. And even when she's healthy she's only played the tour minimum once her whole career.

'flukes'. Sure. But true indications of talent as well. But a rule that skinny, white, Russian, blonde ex-top ten players who've never won are only allowed to play 15 tournaments a year would help both of them a lot. That either of these players hasn't won a TIer II by now is ludicrous.

Gonzo Hates Me!
Dec 24th, 2002, 03:38 AM
So far, yeah

kodeRED
Dec 24th, 2002, 03:50 AM
i think elena was totally fearless and just able to play her game when she was first breaking through, and for a long time after she had major trouble with insecurities which came from all the attention she got, but the tables are nowchanging and she is becoming comfortable with herself and 2003 will be a rebuilding yr for her~!!

jojoseph
Dec 24th, 2002, 03:52 AM
the one thing I'm most afraid of, is the fact that anna has to know that she has the skills to win, but to date, she hasn't really been able to consistently put them together and win something in singles, and that she might fall into a false sense of security thinking that she's gonna win something someday and kinda lose the fire that it takes to be a consistent winner, or even to just win one title.

at this point, all it would take is one more major injury to deplete her of her best chance at being a very great player.

and once she loses the fire to really want to win, it's not coming back, especially with all of the off-court stuff she does now along with the potentials for stuff in the future.

CoryAnnAvants#1
Dec 24th, 2002, 04:11 AM
Anna's big wins at Wimbledon

Rubin-Just coming back from injury and sprayed balls all over the court against Anna. Anna played well, but she wasn't exactly killing herself in order to get through.

Majoli-she had never won a match at Wimbledon before that year and didn't have the toughest deaw to get to the quarters. Anna outplayed her, but Majoli was/is not a grass court player

Huber-see Majoli

Elena's big wins-
Plischke-since when was beating Plischke a newsworthy accomplishment, even in her best season?

Huber-gag, choke, im dying. Handed the match to Elena

Martinez-legit win, I'll give Elena that one.

Since 2000, Dementieva has had only 3 wins against top 15 players (2 of those against Hingis, both in Moscow, and 1 against Arantxa) Kournikova has had the same basically, but at least she has the excuse of being injured. That being said, if you get to a GS semi once, you can do it again. However, their kind draws certainly facilitated their run and perhaps explain their inconsistency since then.

auntie janie
Dec 24th, 2002, 12:52 PM
What! Elena only has 3 wins against top-15 players since 2000???? :eek: That is a pretty damning statistic!

Maybe Elena and Anna will get kind draws again, though. But at this point, with the mental barriers they have each erected since their best days, I wonder if they could even make it through a kind draw ... especially Anna, whose best days are a few years farther in the past than Elena's. Anna did have that more recent Aussie Open quarterfinal, though.

Experimentee
Dec 24th, 2002, 01:03 PM
I agree with Bradshaw#1, those upsets werent exactly stunning, Majoli was never good on grass and Rubin had just recovered from a long injury. Huber was leading in the match against Elena D then she choked and played so unbelievably bad. At the time i thought those players had the easiest draws, so perhaps it wasnt beyond their ability at the time to win those matches, but i dont think they would have done it if they'd had to face tougher opponents.

Experimentee
Dec 24th, 2002, 01:10 PM
Kournikova had a good draw to get to her Aus Open QF too

R128 Daniela Hantuchova (SVK) W 6-2 7-5
R64 Rita Kuti Kis (HUN) W 6-3 6-4
R32 Barbara Schett (AUT) W 2-6 6-4 6-3
R16 Barbara Rittner (GER) W 6-3 6-1
QF Lindsay Davenport (USA) L 4-6 2-6

auntie janie
Dec 24th, 2002, 01:14 PM
I believe Arantxa once reached the Wimbledon final without ever meeting a seed. (Please correct me if I am wrong here, anyone). So that opportunity to slip through does come up now and again.
But even then, it takes mental fortitude to keep getting the wins. Anna and Elena obviously both possessed this inner strength at the time. Do they still?

Venus Forever
Dec 24th, 2002, 04:10 PM
Elena has not only just beaten 3 top 15 players in the past two years, but as of right now, she has the lowest amount of quality points in the top 20.

kodeRED
Dec 24th, 2002, 04:16 PM
i have been folowing tennis rigorously for the past 6 yrs and i still do not understand the quality pts. Are they just points indicating the quality of players they have beaten??

irma
Dec 24th, 2002, 04:20 PM
if they never do it again. then yes (I am talking about grand slams not other results)

but they are still young so they might do it again!

Venus Forever
Dec 24th, 2002, 04:23 PM
Quality points is basically points that you receive from beating quality players. You receive more points from beating higher ranked players.

For Example, you receive 100 points for beating the #1 players, about only 2 points for beating the #100 player.

That just shows that everyone in the top 20 has beaten more players of higher stature than Elena has.

kodeRED
Dec 24th, 2002, 04:26 PM
ok thx V...but do u actually think that elena is that bad... i think once she fixes a few bumps and her head that she will b top 5 material...she has beaten V and taken a set off her at miami this yr remember

brickhousesupporter
Dec 24th, 2002, 04:33 PM
I don't think they were flukes. I think they were unexpected. When you are new on the tour and you have a lot of unexpected wins. I think that is more the case of Dementieva than it is with kornikova. Kornikova has beaten a lot of the top 10 players she has faced. Kournikova is kind of an enigma with me. She can play some beautiful tennis and then she can play some atrocious tennis. I truly think that Anna can get back into the top 8 but unless she gets more consistent that is all she will accomplish.

Volcana
Dec 24th, 2002, 04:47 PM
kodeRED - Elena is a top 20 on raw talent. But ask yourself this. How has her game changed since 2000?

Ma. Estefania
Dec 24th, 2002, 05:19 PM
Elena's one wasn't a fluke.
Anna's one....well....

Philip
Dec 24th, 2002, 06:24 PM
Anna isnt a fluke... Miami in 1998 she went on to beat 4 top ten players on her way to the final, and lead a set over venus.

Arantxa
Conchita
Lindsay
Monica

all beaten.

She has beaten Lindsay again, she beat Hingis on clay, she's done pretty well. Managed to get carrer high of 8 in Feb 2001. then..... injury :( then the dreaded 2002 season...

hopefully she can regain something in 2003 :)

kodeRED
Dec 24th, 2002, 10:32 PM
actually Volcana i think that her game has gotten worse..including espescially her serve...
she'll improve don't worry.!.
and dementieva has davenports number more than any1 else on the tour.. i think that is quite an acomplishment

DEETHELICK
Dec 24th, 2002, 10:40 PM
Very interesting points.

GoDominique: I totally misinterpreted your post. Sorry :)

I think it's safe to say that whilst the talent is unquestionable, the fact that their games are still static contribute to making their results look flukes. Especially as they haven't beaten anyone of note.

I though Plisckhe was a Top 10 player? My bad....

And Elena only has 3 Top 15 wins....wow, not very good at all. The saddening fact abt both of them is that they both (especially Elena) have games that can give any top player fits. Its about the results though, which there don't seem to be enough of.

Also, Elena too injured herself at Amelia 01 and since then has been a completely different player. She also injured herself at Charleston this year too....

Its just really weird that those Slam results came and then.....nothing.

auntie janie
Dec 24th, 2002, 10:55 PM
kodeRED, Lindsay and Elena have played 8 times, with Lindsay winning 6 of those 8. If Elena has Lindsay's number, she sure is not using it too often!

DEETHELICK
Dec 24th, 2002, 11:03 PM
I understand what kodeRED is saying, Elena has the game to trouble Lindsay and has given her some tight contests. Where Elena lacks is the serve, strategy and mental toughness.

One example was Miami QF 02 against Venus, she should have finished Venus off, but somehow she let her back in.

Venus Forever
Dec 24th, 2002, 11:06 PM
Kodered, the only people who have Lindsay's Number is Venus and Serena. They have completely dominated her the past two years. In fact, since 2000 I think Lindsay has beaten each sister once.

Venus Forever
Dec 24th, 2002, 11:07 PM
Deethelick, how should have Dementieva finished off Venus?? She was never close to even finishing the match off with a victory, Venus won 5-7 6-3 6-2.

DEETHELICK
Dec 24th, 2002, 11:16 PM
If I remember correctly, Elena has 2 BP chances in the 2nd set and shanked them both. If she was mentally tough, she should have taken that game.

Elena's game that day was falling apart, her only saviour was her forehand, which she was firing pretty accurately. She just didn't have the mentality and confidence in her shots to seize the opportunity.

Venus sensed this and started to push the accelerator. Even though the final set was 6-2, I remember it being much closer than that, many deuces, etc.

Hope that makes it clearer. :)

Venus Forever
Dec 24th, 2002, 11:38 PM
Well, it seemed to me that Venus was just completely off for the first set and half, so it wasn't really Venus. Elena then fell apart in the end, but Venus was still not her best and won it easily.

The entire tournament at Miami Venus played horribly. She lost a set to Dyrberg, then to Dementieva, and then got crushed by Serena.

This just shows that Venus' worst still can beat a 50% Elena.

DEETHELICK
Dec 24th, 2002, 11:57 PM
Neither girl was on, altho aspects of their games were on. Venus was way ahead i the 1st set and should have closed it but Elena came back.

You also have to remember that Elena had played nearly a 4 hour match the day before (winning 16-14 in the TB!!!) so I';m sure fatigue played a part, but she did offer a legit challenge to venus.

I genuinely believe she could have finished that match in 2, but she didn't which speak volumes about her, coz as you said Venus was off.

Why didn't Elena capitalise?