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Volcana
Dec 21st, 2002, 10:42 PM
Might seem odd to compare a player with 2 GS singles wins to one with 18. Nor does the H2H tell the whole story. From 1979 to 1980, it was Tracy Austin, rather than Chris Evert, who was the main challenger to Navratilova.

Austin was the first modern power baseliner. Pre-Lindsay, pre-Steffi, pre-Monica. The girl packed SERIOUS heat. But inuries took apart a career that might have been one of the greatest of all time.

Should she be classed with the two greats she was so competitive with? Or as, Bill Parcells once opined "You are what your record says you are". And Tracy Austin belongs with Mary Pierce, somewhat south of Virginia Wade on the all time list?

Oh, for what it;s worth, Tracy was
10-17 vs Martina
9 - 7 vs Chris

way
Dec 21st, 2002, 10:56 PM
in "BFTP" we've been discussing this many times now.
My thought, fro what it's worth:
she'd be ranked with the alltime greats.

You summed her "facts" very fine, i must say

Messenger
Dec 21st, 2002, 10:56 PM
I was surprised that she has some results as late as 1994!

Sam L
Dec 21st, 2002, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by Caesar's Messenger
I was surprised that she has some results as late as 1994!

Didn't she get double bagelled by Steffi Graf? :o I remeber her attempted comeback.

Yes, Tracy is one of those "what-if" all time greats.

You should pay BFTP a visit Volcano, if you're not already doing so ;)

darren cahill
Dec 21st, 2002, 11:27 PM
I am an avid Tracy Austin fan and i'm not sure about those head to heads...are you just speaking of those couple years cause Tracys h2d versus Navratilova was 20-14 in favor of Martina and Tracy lead Chris 9-7 when all was said and done.

the Austin vs Evert head to heads

1977--WIMBLEDON 3RD ROUND--EVERT WINS 61 61
1978--HILTON HEAD SEMI FINALS EVERT WINS 63 61
1978--US OPEN QUARTERS EVERT WINS 75 61
1979 NEW YORK (NOT SURE OF THE EVENT, MAYBE THE AVON CHAMPIONSHIPS? A KINDA CHASE CHAMPIONSHIPS THING) TRACY WINS 63 61

1979 ROME SEMI FINALS TRACY WINS 64 26 76 (THIS IS THE EVENT WHERE TRACY SNAPPED CHRIS EVERT 125 MATCH WINS ON CLAY)

1979 BERGEN COUNTY, I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THIS IS BUT ITS THE FINAL AND THE WEEKEND PRIOR TO THE US OPEN AND CHRIS WON 67 64 61

1979 US OPEN FINAL TRACY WINS 64 63

1979 FILDERSTADT SEMIS TRACY WINS 63 75

1979 LANDOVER (SEASON CHAMPIONSHIPS) ROUND ROBIN TRACY WINS 61 63

1979 LANDOVER (SEASON CHAMPIONSHIPS) SEMIS, TRACY WINS AGAIN 63 60

1980 CINCINNATI FINALS TRACY WINS 62 61 ( THIS MAY BE THE TOURNAMENT WHERE CHRIS HAD HAD ENOUGH OF LOSING TO TRACY 5 TIMES IN A ROW AND RATHER EASILY AND TOOK SOME TIME OFF THE EARLY PART OF THE YEAR)

1980 US OPEN SEMIS CHRIS WINS 46 61 61

1981 TORONTO FINALS TRACY WINS 61 64

1981 EAST RUTHERFORD ROUND ROBIN CHRIS WINS 46 64 76

1981 EAST RUTHERFORD SEMIS TRACY WINS 61 62

1982 EAST RUTHERFORD CHRIS WINS FINAL MATHUP 60 60:eek: :eek:

If anyone is interested i could list Tracy vs Martinas too.

Justin
Dec 21st, 2002, 11:41 PM
Tracy is nowhere close to Evert/Navratilova. She always did poorly in Australia and Roland Garros, granted she rarely played them. She was formidable at Wimbledon and was rarely the victim of an early-round upset there but would always bow out pretty lamely to Martina, Chrissy, Pam et al. It was in New York where she shined. That alone, while formidable, will not get her close to Chrissy/Martina on the all-time list. She is closer to Hana Mandlikova, who had a much longer career but who won 3 Grand Slams, all on different surfaces (grass, red clay and hard).

Interestingly, and by no means does this take away from Tracy’s Grand Slams, but she was close to losing both the ’79 and ’81 US Open titles with 7-6 third set matches. That ’79 match was especially close. But, she sure belted the ball.

darren cahill
Dec 21st, 2002, 11:47 PM
which 79 match was close? you dont mean the final do you? it was 64 63 or are you talking about the semis against Navratilova? that was 75 75

Justin
Dec 21st, 2002, 11:49 PM
The Kathy Jordan match.

darren cahill
Dec 21st, 2002, 11:56 PM
yes, you are right,,tracy did pull that one out 46 61 76. I just wasnt sure who you were talking about since we were talking of Chris and martina and your comment was just "most of all the 79 match", it was a head scratcher! :D

darren cahill
Dec 22nd, 2002, 12:00 AM
Tracys US open that year aside from the Kathy Jordan match wasnt all that stressful...i forgot who she played 1st round but in the 2nd she had Andrea Jaeger who she beat 62 62 and the 3rd round score was 63 60 then the Jordan match followed by the 75 75 match with Navratilova and the final against Chris 64 63..i take it the draws were a round less then? unless i forgot one score?

Justin
Dec 22nd, 2002, 12:01 AM
Just tryin to keep you on your toes, Darren Cahill. ;)

Justin
Dec 22nd, 2002, 12:02 AM
No, it was still 7 rounds but I have no clue who her other opponents were.

darren cahill
Dec 22nd, 2002, 12:06 AM
Justin, thanks for keeping me on my toes and for your pleasant and exciting conversation. Its nice to talk about these older players, maybe some of this civilized conversation will spread to other threads on GM?!?

You are right...i checked my goofy Tracy Austin spreadsheet on my computer (dont laugh)--I guess in my haste to print her results i left out Sylvia Hanika as her quarterfinal slaughter, 61 61

darren cahill
Dec 22nd, 2002, 12:10 AM
Tracy had some funny quotes during that 79 run as well. one of my faves was after the Kathy Jordan match in which Kathy really annoyed Tracy in every which way, Tracy said following the match
" she questioned way too many calls, it seemed like every close line call was questioned, when you do that too often no one believes you, you should wait until its REALLY close" i dont know why i found that amusing but i did

Kathy jordan questioned almost every shot in the tiebreak and muttered aloud one time "the stars get all the breaks" Kathy Jordan could be quite classic herself

TennisFan75
Dec 22nd, 2002, 12:11 AM
The 1979-1980 season was not a good one for Chris. In her book she says she was pretty burned out. A little bit from her book

"In 1979, I played 22 tournaments and 107 matches, equaling my total for 1974, despite my marriage. The 1980 Avon circuit was a survival test that I lost. I guess I used more of my emotional reserves because the year began badly at the Colgate Series Finals in Washington, with two straight losses to Tracy. Then came a third defeat within ten days to her, 6-2 6-1 in the Avon final in Cincinnati. When Martina buried me 6-2 6-4 at another Avon final tour stop in Chicago, I had bottomed out."


Darren, Bergen County was a hard court tournament the week before the open, probably a predecessor to the Mahwah tourney..


Jay :D

darren cahill
Dec 22nd, 2002, 12:15 AM
jay, i had a feeling it was something like Mahwah, i just wasnt sure but the dates i had were prior to the Open so i figured that too.

I have some of Tracys wins on tape from that time frame and just love the 79 final!

TennisFan75
Dec 22nd, 2002, 12:21 AM
i hardly have any tracy stuff... the 81 open final and the 82 wimbledon QF are it.. she was a interesting player to watch, she was really figity! (is that a word?) I would love to get a copy of her and chris in the 80 Open SF..

Jay :D

darren cahill
Dec 22nd, 2002, 12:24 AM
I know what you mean about her being figidty. she was also rather stiff too...like her return of serve stance was rather up-right, no knee bend or anything. i must have secretly admired it cause i find myself playing a bit like Tracy.
. I also have that wimbledon quarter you are talking about (with Billie Jean right?)
Tracy looked really cute in that match

TennisFan75
Dec 22nd, 2002, 12:28 AM
thought I'd toss in a fun photo from back in the day...

http://members.aol.com/j77510/3champs.jpg

jay :D

TennisFan75
Dec 22nd, 2002, 12:31 AM
Darren,

Yes, it was Billie Jean.. that was good match, i was surprised that Billie Jean was able to exploit Tracy so much with short angles to the backhand in the final set. It would have been an interesting Semifinal with Chris if Tracy had won that match. She and Chris only met on grass once that one time in 77. Chris and Billie Jean had a great match in that semi!


Jay :D

Volcana
Dec 22nd, 2002, 12:35 AM
darren cahill - itf database has

Austin vs Evert 9-7 (thanks for the correction)
Austin vs Navratilova 10-17

Three pretty nice pairs of legs there.

darren cahill
Dec 22nd, 2002, 12:37 AM
Tracy Austin (USA) vs. Martina Navratilova (USA)
8/15/1977 Charlotte Clay QF Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-1 6-2
10/10/1977 Phoenix Hardcourt QF Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-1 6-1
1/23/1978 Los Angeles Indoor Carpet QF Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-3 6-4
3/6/1978 Dallas Indoor Carpet QF Tracy Austin (USA) 6-3 2-6 7-6
6/26/1978 Wimbledon Grass R16 Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-2 6-3
10/2/1978 Phoenix Hardcourt F Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-4 6-2
11/20/1978 Tokyo Indoor Carpet F Tracy Austin (USA) 6-1 6-1
1/1/1979 Washington Indoor Carpet F Tracy Austin (USA) 6-3 6-2
1/29/1979 Chicago Indoor Carpet F Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-3 6-4
2/12/1979 Los Angeles Indoor Carpet SF Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-2 6-3
2/26/1979 Dallas Indoor Carpet SF Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-3 6-1
3/19/1979 New York Indoor Carpet F Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-3 3-6 6-2
5/21/1979 Tokyo Hardcourt F Tracy Austin (USA) 6-1 6-1
6/25/1979 Wimbledon Grass SF Martina Navratilova (USA) 7-5 6-1
7/30/1979 San Diego Hardcourt F Tracy Austin (USA) 6-4 6-2
8/27/1979 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Tracy Austin (USA) 7-5 7-5
11/5/1979 Filderstadt Indoor Hardcourt F Tracy Austin (USA) 6-2 6-0
12/10/1979 Tokyo Indoor Carpet F Tracy Austin (USA) 6-2 6-1
12/31/1979 Landover Indoor Carpet F Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-2 6-1
2/4/1980 Los Angeles Indoor Carpet F Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-2 6-0
3/17/1980 New York Indoor Carpet F Tracy Austin (USA) 6-2 2-6 6-2
3/24/1980 LaCosta Indoor Carpet F Tracy Austin (USA) 7-5 6-2
4/28/1980 Orlando Clay F Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-2 6-4
11/17/1980 Tokyo Indoor Carpet F Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-4 6-3
8/17/1981 Toronto Hardcourt SF Tracy Austin (USA) 7-6 6-4
8/31/1981 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Tracy Austin (USA) 1-6 7-6 7-6
9/28/1981 Minneapolis Indoor Carpet F Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-0 6-2
10/26/1981 Filderstadt Indoor Hardcourt F Tracy Austin (USA) 4-6 6-3 6-4
11/16/1981 Tokyo Indoor Carpet SF Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-3 6-4
12/14/1981 East Rutherford Indoor Hardcourt F Tracy Austin (USA) 2-6 6-4 6-2
10/18/1982 Filderstadt Indoor Hardcourt F Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-3 6-3
10/25/1982 Brighton Indoor Carpet SF Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-2 6-1
1/10/1983 Houston Indoor Carpet SF Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-2 6-2
4/4/1983 Hilton Head Clay F Martina Navratilova (USA) 5-7 6-1 6-0
Martina Navratilova (USA) leads 20:14
Hard: Tracy Austin (USA) leads 5:2
Clay: Martina Navratilova (USA) leads 3:0
Grass: Martina Navratilova (USA) leads 2:0
Indoor: Martina Navratilova (USA) leads 13:9

Volcana
Dec 22nd, 2002, 12:38 AM
Justin - I think Mandlikova won 4 GS titles, but I was wrong on the Austin/Evert H2H, so I don't want to say I'm sure. I do think when talking about 'power tennis' we quite consistently ignore Tracy. Granted most of the posters here never saw her play.

TennisFan75
Dec 22nd, 2002, 12:41 AM
Volcana.. i think tracy was "powerfull" for her day and with wood raquets. Martina and Chris have both said she hit the ball really hard for someone so slight.

Hana did win 4 GS titles,

1980 Australian
1981 French
1985 U.S Open
1987 Australian

Jay :D

bionic71
Dec 22nd, 2002, 12:43 AM
For whatever reason....injury, burnout, poor training, all of the above.....we were robbed of a fantastic three way battle for the top position during the 80s. Obviously the sensational Evert/Navratilova rivalry is historic.... we can only speculate on what may have happened if Tracy's body had held up.

Justin
Dec 22nd, 2002, 03:03 AM
Volcana-

Wow. I never knew that she won Oz in 1980. I remember watching her '87 final vs. Martina and thinking that was her first time there as champ. Thanks for the correction. She had a better career than I thought :)

Jakeev
Dec 22nd, 2002, 07:22 AM
And not just Tracy, Andrea Jaeger too. No sense crying over spilled milk.

But could you imagine what the tour would have been like if Tracy and Andrea never had to quit because of burnout or injuries? How they might have done against Steffi and Monica?

Such is life.

BCP
Dec 22nd, 2002, 12:10 PM
Thanks for the photo! Chris and Martina were probably doing bunny ears behind Tracy.............

MLF
Dec 22nd, 2002, 01:22 PM
Tracy really wnet through a phase of crushing Chris which really had Chris mentally gone for a while, and Chris is considered one of the all time greats mentally. I think Tracy would have been in the Slam mix if her body had held up. she kept skipping the French to finish school as she understandably thought she would have many chances over the years - unfortunately injury dictated otherwise.

Andrea Jaeger was potentially very good too but I don't think she was quite the threat Tracy was and perhaps would have lagged a bit behind scoring the occasional big tournament win.

mboyle
Dec 22nd, 2002, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by Jakeev
And not just Tracy, Andrea Jaeger too. No sense crying over spilled milk.

But could you imagine what the tour would have been like if Tracy and Andrea never had to quit because of burnout or injuries? How they might have done against Steffi and Monica?

Such is life.

Monica still hits as hard if not harder than Venus/Serena, so I really don't think Tracy could have beaten her. Steffi, it would have been a bit closer, but I still think Steffi would have won most of their matches. Still, had Tracy not burned out, the tour would have had a three way battle for number one, which is something we have never seen for a prolonged period of time. It would have been cool, but the only thing we as tennis fans were really robbed of is the Seles vs. Graf rivalry. She (monica) didn't succomb to injury, her game didn't go downhill, she was stabbed by a deranged man who the Germans decided shouldn't go to jail.

Jakeev
Dec 22nd, 2002, 04:25 PM
Monica hits harder than Venus and Serena? Not today she doesn't.