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WhatTheDeuce
Dec 16th, 2002, 03:23 AM
OMG!!! OMG!!!

MONICA :sad:

ANNA :):):):):):):):)

http://www.tsn.ca/tennis/news_story.asp?id=17939

LeonHart
Dec 16th, 2002, 03:24 AM
Kool :)

shannonannafan
Dec 16th, 2002, 03:26 AM
That's my girl!!!

WhatTheDeuce
Dec 16th, 2002, 03:26 AM
ANNA! anna really needed this. this is a serious confidence builder for her! monica will be just fine....anna REALLY should build on this....

Venus Forever
Dec 16th, 2002, 03:30 AM
WoW!!

Congrats Anna!!

Thank God she finally got a BIG win!!

:bounce:

Scotso
Dec 16th, 2002, 03:31 AM
Congrats Anna :)

selesrules
Dec 16th, 2002, 03:33 AM
Well, although Monica is my #1 fav, this is just an exhibition and I also like Anna and I'm happy for her. Both will have a great 2003!

Go Anna! :kiss:

Go Monica! :hearts:

Berlin_Calling
Dec 16th, 2002, 03:33 AM
Yes Congrats Anna!!! Good fight Monica :). Go Anna!! :bounce:

King Lindsay
Dec 16th, 2002, 03:34 AM
OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT'S A FUCKING EXHIOBITION WHICH MEANS NOTHING.

WhatTheDeuce
Dec 16th, 2002, 03:38 AM
king lindsay, monica and anna both take exos seriously and they both played like it was a real match....anna BEAT monica...us fans are excited because we know she is playing well! dont be such an asshole...

CondiLicious
Dec 16th, 2002, 03:39 AM
WeLl MoNiCa Is VeRy NiCe AnD iS kNoWn FoR hEr KiNd AnD cHaRiTaBlE pErSoNaLiTy... MaYbE sHe LeT aNnA wIn... OoPs... I dIdNt MeAn ThAt. BaD mE. bAd Me. :fiery: :fiery:

Martian Martin
Dec 16th, 2002, 03:40 AM
Great result Anna, this should do a lot for her confidence, hope so anyway :)

disposablehero
Dec 16th, 2002, 03:42 AM
That score is not correct, it was 6-4 7-6.

WhatTheDeuce
Dec 16th, 2002, 03:43 AM
disposable were you there?!?!!?!!!!?!??!?!?!!?!?!!

disposablehero
Dec 16th, 2002, 03:46 AM
I was there. I will give a more complete report later.

WhatTheDeuce
Dec 16th, 2002, 03:47 AM
HOW DID ANNA PLAY!!!! JUST TELL ME PLLLLLEEEEAAAASSSEEEE!!!

King Lindsay
Dec 16th, 2002, 03:48 AM
Hey dlandy, no, Anna beat nothing, boy. AGAIN. IT'S A FUCKING EXHIBITION WHICH MEANS NOTHING. MONICA DOESN'T PLAY THEM TO WIN, SHE PLAYS THEM FOR DOLLARS.

WhatTheDeuce
Dec 16th, 2002, 03:49 AM
ive seen monica in an exhibition and she has openly said she tries her very hardest on the court ALL THE TIME! have you ever even seen monica in a exo! she is fierce just like she is on the tour! u dont have to be excited alright...just let us fans be excited...

endiadjendiadj
Dec 16th, 2002, 03:53 AM
Monica is not that kind of person. She plays to win! I would lose all respect for Monica if she 'let' someone win a match. No player does that. Obviously, you think very little of Monica.:rolleyes:

King Lindsay
Dec 16th, 2002, 03:54 AM
obviously, you don't understand professional tennis and the concept of exhibitions. Fools, both of you.

WhatTheDeuce
Dec 16th, 2002, 03:54 AM
okay kinglindsay, lets just drop this...

köj-è
Dec 16th, 2002, 03:55 AM
:eek: Anna :D

Yak
Dec 16th, 2002, 04:00 AM
Thats my girl!!! Congrats Anna:D

Anna won her match! Monica doesn't give match away...she is a true champion and true champion don't do that!

disposablehero
Dec 16th, 2002, 04:04 AM
OK, first about the concept. They aren't quite real matches, and all the players go in recognizing this.

Second, the main event. Now, this was fully intended to be 2 sets, so when Anna won the first set, they had to make sure she won the second. It's much like College Basketball, the players give their all most of the time but shave a point here and there. Anna was sharp and painting the lines. Monica played not badly but did not choose to run down anything, and I would have been upset if she did. It was after all, an exhibition in front of 4000 people. So the basic gist of the first set was, Monica played a little better but Anna won it based on the balls Monica didn't go after. BTW, the surface was terrible. I'm sure even Jeyaseelan and Webb were disappointed with it. The second set was much of the same, with Monica letting Anna off the hook from a few potential breaks to get it to 6-6. I think the tiebreaker was 7-1 or 7-2. Monica was looking very close to as fit as she needed to be, and had a deft touch at the net in the doubles match. Although watching Anna play doubles is something special.

TheBoiledEgg
Dec 16th, 2002, 04:04 AM
Well done Anya :bounce: :D :)

Gonzo Hates Me!
Dec 16th, 2002, 04:07 AM
Party in the streets!!!!!!!!!

WhatTheDeuce
Dec 16th, 2002, 04:15 AM
disposable....who won the doubles match?

disposablehero
Dec 16th, 2002, 04:16 AM
As for the Jeyaseelan/Webb match, I was po'd that they put this on first, before the juniors and before the wheelchair match. But I guess that made the scheduling easier. Jeyaseelan is a delight. Very bubbly, and very stylish dresses. Has an enjoyable game to watch too, but a tendency to hit it long. Webb seems to me like she is capable of more. She definitely has the height, but looks like a fairly normal woman and really should be a bit more muscular. Also, her second serve is a definite liability.

The doubles "match" (set) was a lot of fun. The players were joking with each other, and the crowd. A couple of guys came out early in the doubles dressed in drag, one as Anna, and one with a dress that matched the nice outfit Kyla (McLaren?) the 15 year old junior girl wore. Also, when we stopped doing The Wave, Anna motioned for us to start again.

Venus Forever
Dec 16th, 2002, 04:16 AM
Hopefully it will be good things to come from Anna.

disposablehero
Dec 16th, 2002, 04:16 AM
Seles/Jeyaseelan 6-4

WhatTheDeuce
Dec 16th, 2002, 04:17 AM
there is no way monica let anna win at all....monica is too much of a champion to not run for balls she can get to and let anna win...no WAY monica would ever do that....i just know she didnt...

harloo
Dec 16th, 2002, 04:18 AM
Well seles fans look on the bright side, at least anyone who beats the Williams are not the only players who will be exalted as the next possible slam winner. Go Anna, get your 15 minutes.:D

WhatTheDeuce
Dec 16th, 2002, 04:20 AM
who won the jeyaseelan/webb match?

disposablehero
Dec 16th, 2002, 04:21 AM
dlandy, do you really think Monica is stupid enough to miss the Australian Open so she can beat Anna in her 4th and smallest exhibition this week? She tried to win the 1st set without moving, and couldn't. If Monica had won the first set, she would have won the second in a 7-6 tiebreak. That's how these things work. I can assure you that the second set of the Jeyaseelan/Webb match was fixed as well, along with the doubles result. As soon as I realized the winners of the singles matches were both on the same team, it was obvious that Monica/Sonya were going to win the doubles. Most of the point-shaving duty in that match went to Webb, but Anna chipped in a few points too.

King Lindsay
Dec 16th, 2002, 04:27 AM
LOL. Tell 'em, DH. They wouldn't listen to me.

tennisIlove09
Dec 16th, 2002, 04:43 AM
Originally posted by disposablehero
dlandy, do you really think Monica is stupid enough to miss the Australian Open so she can beat Anna in her 4th and smallest exhibition this week? She tried to win the 1st set without moving, and couldn't. If Monica had won the first set, she would have won the second in a 7-6 tiebreak. That's how these things work. I can assure you that the second set of the Jeyaseelan/Webb match was fixed as well, along with the doubles result. As soon as I realized the winners of the singles matches were both on the same team, it was obvious that Monica/Sonya were going to win the doubles. Most of the point-shaving duty in that match went to Webb, but Anna chipped in a few points too.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I some how doubt that the ex. matches are PRE-DETERMINED. I guess Monica beating Anna 76 64 yesterday was fixed too. I guess the entire Collins Cup was fixed too. Please. Give it up.


Congrats Anna! Congrats Monica! Congrats Vanessa! Congrats Sonya!! [Sonya! PLEASE stay healthy!! :hearts: ]

disposablehero
Dec 16th, 2002, 04:46 AM
TennisIlove, I assume you were also there, then?

I can't tell you exactly how they determine the winner, but I can tell you that it is generally decided beforehand whether it will be 2 or 3 sets, and I can tell you that they try and make all the sets either 6-4 or 7-6.

tennisIlove09
Dec 16th, 2002, 04:50 AM
Originally posted by disposablehero
TennisIlove, I assume you were also there, then?

I can't tell you exactly how they determine the winner, but I can tell you that it is generally decided beforehand whether it will be 2 or 3 sets, and I can tell you that they try and make all the sets either 6-4 or 7-6.

According to this "theory" Monica could have won 46 64 76; or 46 76 76; or 46 76 64.

Again, no disrespect, but I don't think the ex. matches are pre-determined. It would take away part of the fun. Monica and Anna aren't just playing for the heck of it, they are playing and tuning up for next year. Why show up if you are going to lose? That doesn't make sense to me.

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 04:52 AM
Because there is nothing to gain from the result.

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 16th, 2002, 04:52 AM
Hmmmmmm, you can't give too much weight to the outcome of an exhibition match. Still, it's nice to see that Anna is fit and playing sharply. I hope this translates into good form when she's back here in January. :)

King Lindsay
Dec 16th, 2002, 04:53 AM
It's just a payday. Christ, you people are dumb.

tennisIlove09
Dec 16th, 2002, 04:53 AM
Originally posted by Hurley
Because there is nothing to gain from the result.

I disagree. You can get confidence. Especially Anna. Last year she beat Capriati in a match, and went into the adidas, and took Serena to three!

There is a lot to be gained, IMO.

tenn_ace
Dec 16th, 2002, 04:53 AM
well done Anya (regardless of whoever whatever says) :)

disposablehero
Dec 16th, 2002, 04:53 AM
No way. This match was intended to be 2 sets from the beginning. To win the match, Monica had to win the first set.

You all don't need to get upset, BTW. This isn't Roland Garros or the US Open. This is showing live elite tennis to an audience that never gets to see it. With the 4000 who attended, I think it is safe to assume that it will be another 15 years before Winnipeg gets an exhibition. (And the threadbare surface looked like it was probably used for the previous one)

disposablehero
Dec 16th, 2002, 04:55 AM
Anna should be confident anyway. She played some very good tennis and generally avoided the stupid mistakes that have been her undoing over the years.

disposablehero
Dec 16th, 2002, 04:56 AM
BTW, I think maybe the Winnipeg girl was actually names McNicol. Anyhow, I have about 20 or 21 pictures of the whole event. I don't think they ate going to be very good quality, but I'll see about getting them scanned.

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 04:57 AM
How can you get confidence from a match that was decided from the very beginning that it was going to be a two-setter? Or are you insisting that DH, Monica's most devoted and wisest fan on these boards, is lying?

The only things that are changed by the result are the perceptions of the people who think that this match has anything to do with anything aside from the paychecks.

FLL
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:01 AM
The only that is fixed is a William sister match!

I'm just joking by the way!

We can say all that we want but there is only one Anna Kournikova and one Monica Seles and I can bet anything I have that they won't tell anyone if the match was fixed!

And too all the people that says they do that for the money........ I don't think that they'll need there exhibition money to eat tomorrow!

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:03 AM
Neither Monica nor Anna often turn down the $$$, no matter how much they already have. They are probably two of the worst offenders at raking in exhibition dough.

disposablehero
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:05 AM
Well Hurley, I do believe there is more to it than that. When Monica says she wants to bring tennis to people who can't see it, I believe her. I'm sure they could have had an exhibition in Atlanta, Dallas, or someplace as convenient and easily made as much money. Also, they are very clearly trying to get in some good practice at these events.

FLL
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:06 AM
Do you know any of them personally to know that? You seem to know everything:eek:! Will it rain tomorrow?

King Lindsay
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:07 AM
FLL, shut the fuck up.

kournikovafan13
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:08 AM
First of all, well done Anna, I'm very pleased. :D

Ok erm, KingLindsay, you're talking bullshit.

All tennis players, whether you are a club player or a professional, have a love for the game and a desire to win. When they go out there, they don't care about the money. They want to win, regardless of how meaningful the match is.

Besides, I don't think Anna or Monica will be begging on the streets anytime soon.

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:09 AM
DH, I know you're a big fan. But you have to admit that Monica is a bit ludicrous with her exhibition schedule, to her own detriment.

I would HOPE, if I was a Seles fan, that she wouldn't try in these matches. She plays 269376397 a year. So many chances to get injured again.

King Lindsay
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:09 AM
No Kournikovafan, you're just very, very, very blind. IT'S AN EXHIBITION. PLAYERS DO IT FOR THE PAYDAY. NOBODY CARES WHO WINS, NOT EVEN THE CONTESTANTS. THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE MATCH IS JUST TO GIVE A GOOD SHOW, NOT TO TRY TO WIN.

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:10 AM
LOL @ kournikovafan.

Did you read anything in the thread aside from KL's posts?

kournikovafan13
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:11 AM
OMG, geez.

Anna and Monica are fucking millionaires. They could retire right now and be fine for the rest of their lives. Their kids will be rich and their kids will be rich. They don't need money.

disposablehero
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:13 AM
Well Hurley, I have said that I wish she would do less, but what I saw tonight was very encouraging. Monica did not endanger her foot at anytime, and it looked to me like the other 3 players all understood that from the beginning. I was actually surprised that the crowd took it so well, but they seemed to be generally pro-Monica. (But certainly in no way anti-Anna)

I thought the whole thing was great fun. I came out of it as a real Sonya Jeyaseelan fan, too.

King Lindsay
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:14 AM
You're right. They don't need the money. They also don't need to win a fucking exhibition match where nothing's on the line. Do you know anything about tennis? I don't think you do.

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:16 AM
kournikovafan, you proved you didn't read anything. No one said they need money. And yet Anna does photo shoots and exhibitions like it's her job. And Monica is known for overplaying when she has cash coming.

DH, Sonya J is awesome. She's a real party girl, too; you should call her before she leaves town. :D

kournikovafan13
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:20 AM
If Anna had lost 6-2 6-2 she would have been critized. She wins, and the result is "fixed". lol

Forget it, there's no way to convince you.

Crazy Canuck
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:22 AM
The point is Anna would NOT have lost 6-2 6-2.

Because that is not a very good match. In which case, it's not a very good show.

King Lindsay
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:24 AM
No, if anna had lost, I wouldn't have criticized her at all. My reaction would've been the same. That the result is meaningless, and has no bearing on anything.

kournikovafan13
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:24 AM
Anna lost to Monica 2 & 2 in an exhibition last year. I suppose that match was fixed as well, so the fans could enjoy the tense action to the fullest.

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:25 AM
I'm not criticizing anyone at all. The result has no meaning. These are meaningless matches. The scoreline isn't important because I don't care. And neither should you.

I am a massive Kournikova fan and would I have cared if she had lost 0-6 0-6? Hell no. It doesn't matter. Nothing changes except they made 4000 people happy and they got lots of cash.

King Lindsay
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:26 AM
If Anna lost 2 and 2 to Monica in an exhibition last year, that was probably cuz she had a plane to catch an hour before the start of the match.

Crazy Canuck
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:26 AM
What does last year have to do with now? Different event, different guidelines.

You'll have to excuse me for believing the words of someone who was there, over the words of someone who has their head so far up Anna's skirt they can't help not knowing what they are talking about.

persond
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:26 AM
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Seles looks strong in exhibition win over Kournikova
By DAVE CAMPBELL, AP Sports Writer
December 14, 2002

ST. PAUL, Minn. (AP) -- Monica Seles showed no effects of the foot injury that hampered her last season and beat Anna Kournikova 7-6 (6), 6-4 Saturday night in the Minnesota Tennis Challenge.

A crowd of 9,244 showed up for the exhibition at the Xcel Energy Center.

Seles, who finished the 2002 season ranked No. 7 on the WTA tour, had her return game working well and served three aces in the final game to finish off Kournikova.

Just because the match was an exhibition didn't mean Seles and Kournikova didn't care.

Kournikova, who led 5-3 in the first set, slammed a ball into the net after losing a point during the tiebreaker and earlier glared at the umpire when he read the score wrong.

``It's 30-all,'' she said with a shake of her head and a slight roll of her eyes.

Kournikova, ranked No. 35 and known more for her bare midriff than her success on tour, kept Seles busy on the baseline but faded in the second set.

Still searching for her first tour title, Kournikova will play in the Sydney International in January to tune up for the Australian Open.

Though Seles is eight years older and far more accomplished than Kournikova, the two are friends and have faced off in a number of exhibitions. They left St. Paul on Saturday night for Canada, where they were scheduled to play Sunday in another friendly in Winnipeg.

This was the first match in the Twin Cities area involving major pro players since Team USA beat Sweden in 1992 Davis Cup competition in Minneapolis.

The inexperience showed. A couple fans were chided by the umpire for yelling just before a serve, and Kournikova was annoyed on more than one occasion by ballgirls and judges being out of position.

Kournikova had never played in Minnesota before, and the last time Seles competed here was in a 1991 exhibition against Mary Jo Fernandez. Seles was the top-ranked player in the world at the time.

As a prelude, the flamboyant doubles duo of Luke and Murphy Jensen -- wearing Minnesota Wild jerseys and wireless microphones -- faced the University of Minnesota's top doubles team in an eight-game pro set.

Aleksey Zharinov and Thomas Haug overcame a constant stream of good-natured taunting and ``won'' 8-7.

After an unforced error by Zharinov, Luke Jensen said, ``I'm sorry, Gophers. Is the net high?''

Murphy responded, ``That's only the second point, Luke.''

``I know, but it's going good,'' Jensen said.

David Wheaton, a Minnesotan who played 13 years on the ATP tour and reached the semifinals at Wimbledon in 1991, was the emcee.

Once during the doubles match, Wheaton asked the Jensens, ``What do you think Anna's doing right now? Doing her hair?''

Wheaton, who's growing a bit thin on top, didn't know Kournikova was watching.

``I'm sorry you don't have any hair to do,'' she said with a laugh.

The event also included abridged matches between some of the state's top girls and boys players as well as a ``celebrity'' doubles competition mixing the Jensens with a pair of Twin Cities radio deejays.

Former Vikings defensive end Carl Eller, one of the ``Purple People Eaters,'' had a courtside seat.

Email this story - (View most popular)

updated at Sat Dec 14 20:43:31 2002 PT


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Anna didn't even win the match!!!!:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

kournikovafan13
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:29 AM
That was yesterday's exhibition, please use your head.


And Rebecca, why should last year be different? After all, money is money, right? :rolleyes:

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:29 AM
Anna does photo shoots and exhibitions like it's her job

Seems to me that she does it because she enjoys it.

King Lindsay
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:29 AM
YOU IDIOT, PERSOND. TAHT WAS A DIFFERENT EXHIBITION. THE ONE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TOOK PLACE IN WINNIPEG. READ THE THREAD, IDIOT.

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:31 AM
Originally posted by MinskLynx
Seems to me that she does it because she enjoys it.

Fair point.

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:31 AM
Fair point.

Thank you:)

Crazy Canuck
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:32 AM
And Rebecca, why should last year be different? After all, money is money, right?

Well just because you had such a hard time reading it the first time, I've done the duty of copying my exact words and pasting them for you below:

What does last year have to do with now? Different event, different guidelines.

disposablehero
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:32 AM
Although I can understand persond's confusion, given that last night was also a 2 setter with a 7-6 set and a 6-4 set.

persond
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:32 AM
Originally posted by kournikovafan13
That was yesterday's exhibition, please use your head.


And Rebecca, why should last year be different? After all, money is money, right? :rolleyes:

:D I couldn't care less, anyway...!!!:rolleyes: :rolleyes: I choose to "back" the "winners".!!!:angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:34 AM
So, are you guys saying all, most, some or just this one exhibition is fixed?

WhatTheDeuce
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:34 AM
I just saw 5 minutes of highlights from the match...anna hit some spectacular shots, as did monica....i saw monica trying, i saw anna trying....anna won....

monica will be fine....hopefully this wont hurt her confidence...anna should gain from it...

King Lindsay, tennis is a sport. you play to win, exhibition or not. monica tried her best today and she lost. anna tried her best and she won...yesteday, monica tried her best and she won....anna tried her best and she lost....

you dont go into a match saying 'well its an exhibition so im not going to give my full effort'...they wanted to play as a high level and TRY for the fans to enjoy high quality tennis. and they did so...it may not matter....but both these ladies are too competative and graceful to go into a match and let the other win....especially monica, who I KNOW would NEVEr do such a thing...

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:37 AM
Originally posted by dlandy22
monica tried her best today and she lost.

So when I asked before if you thought DH was lying...your answer is yes, correct?

Megan, most are fixed, all have no bearing on anything except, as I stated before, the people who pay too much attention to them. They are never an accurate representation of a player's form, nor are they to be looked at as confidence builders.

King Satan
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:37 AM
Originally posted by dlandy22


you dont go into a match saying 'well its an exhibition so im not going to give my full effort'...they wanted to play as a high level and TRY for the fans to enjoy high quality tennis. and they did so...it may not matter....but both these ladies are too competative and graceful to go into a match and let the other win....especially monica, who I KNOW would NEVEr do such a thing...

That's exactly what I was about to say

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:38 AM
As an organizor i just recieved payment from 4,000 fans. They have already given me their money, so why would I risk scandel by proposing to fix the match when the cash is in my pocket regardless of how entertaining the exo is?

King Lindsay
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:38 AM
actually, dlandy, that's exactly what they did. They said to themselves, "well, this is an exhibition, I'm not going to try very hard, I'm just going to play a fun game and give the fans a show." Why is that impossible for you slack-jawed, bottom-feeding, disease-riddled, stupidity-infested people to believe?

disposablehero
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:38 AM
5 whole minutes? Are you sure it was that long? I am curious what station and where would show 5 whole minutes of an exhibition in Winnipeg, when most of them don't give 5 minutes of US Open highlights.

And seeing the half dozen points they want you to see isn't going to tell you very much.

kournikovafan13
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:39 AM
Originally posted by Rebecca
Well just because you had such a hard time reading it the first time, I've done the duty of copying my exact words and pasting them for you below:

Tell me, why should last year be different? What are these "guidelines" that have been changed?

Is fixing a match the in thing to do in 2002? :rolleyes:

persond
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:39 AM
Originally posted by King Lindsay
YOU IDIOT, PERSOND. TAHT WAS A DIFFERENT EXHIBITION. THE ONE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TOOK PLACE IN WINNIPEG. READ THE THREAD, IDIOT.

:D Idiot??? Idiot??? You don't know me, so, you'll have to address me as "Mr. Idiot", thank you very much. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Anyhoo, I'll be waiting for your sorry ass to make a "mistake", then I'll be all over you like "white on rice".:p :p :p :p

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:40 AM
I think I'm the only one here who is slack-jawed, LOL. But that is entirely due to disbelief.

disposablehero
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:40 AM
MinskLynx, if you didn't "fix" the match, it would be less entertaining. And you wouldn't be able to get a Hall Of Famer with a chronic foot injury.

King Lindsay
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:42 AM
Persond, you can wait all you want, I'll never do anything as stupid as coming into a thread and calling everybody stupid for not knowing what match they were talking about, only to be completely wrong. Jackass.

Crazy Canuck
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:45 AM
Originally posted by kournikovafan13
Tell me, why should last year be different? What are these "guidelines" that have been changed?

Is fixing a match the in thing to do in 2002? :rolleyes:

No, defending obvious liars is.

But seirously - maybe you should read the repots of DH who was there, to get a better understanding of what people are saying.

They are not saying that Anna and Monica show up with their show laces untied, and casual throw the racquet up hoping to hit something.

They are saying that the players play very well, perhaps conceding a point here or there, or not running down or diving like they might have in a slam.

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:46 AM
So if exos don't matter, why bother fixing them? Why bother forcing them to be entertaining?

You recieve payment either way and just risk scandel. Especially since as is, a tennis match is likely to be entertaining on its own without being fixed.

aussiefan83
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:47 AM
some people are pathetic if they believe this match was fixed. that is disrespectful to both anna and monica.

good luck in 2003 to both anna and monica!

kournikovafan13
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:47 AM
Thats obviously not what DH said, he said that not only the result, but also the score, was predetermined, that the set score was supposed to be 6-4 and 7-6.


And if the players are playing very well, just a small level below the effort put in a slam, why shouldn't winners of exhibition matches get credit then?

Crazy Canuck
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:47 AM
I don't think that "exhibition match was fixed" - would really be much of a scandal.

Because it's an exhibition, the point is for show, and nobody cares.

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:48 AM
If people didn't care, they wouldn't spend their money to go see them and the players wouldn't play them.

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:49 AM
There goes DH again, showing disrespect to Monica.

Will he never learn? :sad:

Crazy Canuck
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:49 AM
And if the players are playing very well, just a small level of the effort put in a slam, why shouldn't winners of exhibition matches get credit then?

If this is directed at me, I am certain that you didn't read anything I wrote. I didn't say that the winners shouldn't be credited.

I simply don't put as much bulk into exo wins, as main tour wins - for what I assume are dead obvious reasons.

King Lindsay
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:49 AM
You people .... are blowing my mind with how stupid you are. How can ANY ONE OF YOU believe that the result of this match matters at all? How can you believe that it isn't predetermined? ever wonder why Exhibitions hardly ever go to three sets? Huh, you idiots?

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:50 AM
Aren't three sets more entertaining than two?

Jericho
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:50 AM
oh gosh, now people are like its just an exhibition it doesnt matter, when everyone was all going crazy not too long ago about bovina defeating venus...

disposablehero
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:52 AM
Kourikovafan, it's like this. The sets are going to end 6-4 or 7-6. Which isn't necessarily decided already. They play it out, and see what will be easiest. For instance, in the second set, Anna was never able to get close to breaking Monica's serve, except once when they exchaged breaks on consecutive games early in the set. So they did the tiebreak. However, when Anna was serving up 5-4 in the first, it just seemed easier to end the set there. Granted, I don't know if Anna was supposed to win the match, or just did because of winning the first set. They don't tell me the details.

King Lindsay
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:52 AM
You know what, Oliver? I haven't heard about Bovina beating Venus, but now that I have, my reaction is the same. It was an exhibition, it DOES NOT MATTER AT ALL, IT IS AN INDICATION OF NOTHING.

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:52 AM
Megan, I think you're missing my point.

Earlier, I was thinking about the match tonight and I remembered that DH was going to be there. I thought to myself, if he cares about the result, he's far too involved.

People go because Winnipeg and Minnesota don't get to see pro tennis players and they want to see them. If I lived in Winnipeg and Myskina and Henin played an exhibition, I'd be there in a heartbeat and I wouldn't care if they played ping-pong. People go to book signings and record store appearances all the time, but they aren't going to get read to or see an in-store concert. They just want to SEE their idols.

Therefore, if people just want to be entertained and see a fun match, why oh why would any player risk injury running for a tough ball when there are actual important tournaments on the horizon?

Crazy Canuck
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:52 AM
*sigh*

People care, yes. That is quite clearly not what I meant.

It is an exo.

It is not the French Open finals.

French Open finals Fixed = HUGE scandal
Exo Fixed = Meh

persond
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:54 AM
Originally posted by King Lindsay
Persond, you can wait all you want, I'll never do anything as stupid as coming into a thread and calling everybody stupid for not knowing what match they were talking about, only to be completely wrong. Jackass.

:D You, my dear, have a real problem.!!!:) :)

Firstly, nowhere did I call anyone "stupid"!! I merely thought how "crazy" and certainly never reverted to name-calling.!! Unlike you, I respect the other posters, whether I agree with them or not.

Secondly, you only needed to point out the fact that I had the exhibitions confused and not resort to name calling. It only diminishes your argument and make you appear the "fool", not me. Again, calling me names does precious little to strengthen your position. It rather makes you look quite foolish!!!:hearts: :hearts: :hearts: :hearts:

kournikovafan13
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:54 AM
Originally posted by Rebecca
If this is directed at me, I am certain that you didn't read anything I wrote. I didn't say that the winners shouldn't be credited.

I simply don't put as much bulk into exo wins, as main tour wins - for what I assume are dead obvious reasons.

Ok then, I misunderstood. It seemed apparent from the beginning that you thought the result was entirely fixed but I guess you meant otherwise.


King Lindsay, I don't know why you are so ignorant. In Dublin, Jennifer v Daniela was three sets as was Elena v Venus. Last year (I hate to bring up last year but I fail to see what has changed in terms of the importance of exhibitions), Anna beat Coetzer in South Africa in 2 out of three matches. In the first one she came back from 2-5 in the third to win and the second match was a close 6-4, 6-7, 6-4.

Exhibition matches go to three sets just as often as tour matches. Ok perhaps a little less, but there's no substantial difference.

Crazy Canuck
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:55 AM
Oliver - perhaps you should read what I posted in the Bovina-Venus threads before generalizing me.

Very foolish.

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:56 AM
Perhaps I am missing the point. It seems several different ideas have been proposed from a number of people. So what is the point?

King Lindsay
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:57 AM
Most exhibitions do not go to three sets. I didn't say ALL of them didn't, I said most, and I'm right.

Persond, whatever, I don't talk to you, I won't talk to you, screw off, you loser.

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:57 AM
The point is that none of us agree and it's a stupid thing to argue about. But eh. :D

King Satan
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:57 AM
Originally posted by MinskLynx
Perhaps I am missing the point. It seems several different ideas have been proposed from a number of people. So what is the point?

exactly

dammit, everytime i'm gonna say something, someone says it before me lol

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 05:58 AM
But I would like to reach some sort of understanding to what the point is, wether or not it is silly to fuss over.

Crazy Canuck
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:00 AM
Ok then, I misunderstood. It seemed apparent from the beginning that you thought the result was entirely fixed but I guess you meant otherwise.

I do not think they are totally fixed. I just think that is naive to think that players treat these matches as grand slam matches, heh. They are being paid. If the organizer says "keep it to two, we have other matches to follow" - I think that they do just that. I don't KNOW they do that. But I believe that they do.

I do not think that players put everything into them.

Thus, I put no bulk into the results of them whatsoever, aside from caring how fit someone looks, or whatever.

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:00 AM
Speaking solely for myself, it's useless to get worked up about these, period. Players do not put 100% into exhibitions, and the result of meaningless. They're there for fans to see their faves and for the players to make some cash, and anyone who puts as much stock into them as people in here seem to be doing need to step back and get some perspective.

disposablehero
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:01 AM
The point is that certain points in the match were staged in order to place the result they wanted, 2 close sets. I have no idea whether Anna was chosen as the winner before the match, or near/after the end of the first set. But at some point that decision was made. When Monica was leading 6-5 in the second, I was hoping for a 3rd set but really felt that it was highly unlikely, as I understood the realities of the event.

persond
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:01 AM
Originally posted by King Lindsay
Persond, whatever, I don't talk to you, I won't talk to you, screw off, you loser. [/B]

:) HaHaHaHaHaHaaahh...aaahhHaHaHaHaHaH:kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss:

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:01 AM
And like...that people continue to argue when DH was there! And is explaining the vagaries of the system to you via a first-person account! I mean, really!

Crazy Canuck
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:01 AM
Well, I'm assuming that the point is to talk about the exhibition and wether or no the results are worth paying attention to.

Seeing as that is what this whole thread has been about.

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:02 AM
So why was everything brought into it if that is the only point?

King Satan
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:03 AM
Originally posted by disposablehero
The point is that certain points in the match were staged in order to place the result they wanted, 2 close sets. I have no idea whether Anna was chosen as the winner before the match, or near/after the end of the first set. But at some point that decision was made. When Monica was leading 6-5 in the second, I was hoping for a 3rd set but really felt that it was highly unlikely, as I understood the realities of the event.


You have any proof?

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:05 AM
Okay, if you guys think exhibitions are for real, you need to read up on the sport of which you're all fans. Start with Mewshaw's "Short Circuit" and "Ladies of the Court," follow it up with Feinstein's "Hard Courts" (I'm pretty sure that is the name).

Bump this thread when you've finished those books, and tell me if you feel the same way about exhibitions. These are not shocking allegations circa 2002, folks.

disposablehero
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:05 AM
Yes I do. I have the proof that I saw every point and you saw none of them. If you closed your eyes, put your hands over your ears and and said "Can't hear you Can't hear you Can't hear you" it still would have been obvious to you after Webb's performance in many of the points of the doubles match.

Crazy Canuck
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:06 AM
Everything brought in to it? I'm sorry I have no idea what you are asking.

I just find it funny that everyone is so quick to jump on the back of their favourite in order to defend this as a *great* win. I don't mean you, I mean people like Kkovafan or however he spells it.

OUtside of slams, I will root for Anna over Monica. I quite like Anna.

But I also quite like reality, and choose to live in it.

You are all welcome to join me.

Harju.
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:07 AM
Congrats Anna :D

King Satan
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:07 AM
ok ok relax dude, it was just a question lol

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:09 AM
Dude you asked dude.

King Satan
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:10 AM
if we could put this kinda effort into more important topics, I think we could accomplish something, like What's the meaning of life ;) lol

Crazy Canuck
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:10 AM
Anyhow, I refuse to make my point any further.

It's painful to say the same thing over and over, or watch other people say the same thing over and over.

It's fine to disagree, but I fail to see whats so hard to understand here.

*carries on elsewhere, in reality*

disposablehero
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:11 AM
Incidentally, there were 3 cameras on the match, and I wouldn't be surprised if Global TV broadcasts it a few months from now.

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:11 AM
Can someone explain this? It was preposed that exos are silly because anybody who is serious wouldnt risk injury for upcoming important tournaments by playing them.

So why practice, you can be injured practicing? Why play tournaments before slams, you are risking injury?

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:12 AM
So what is the meaning of life anyway?

I say ice cream but Becca says chips. Discuss.

King Lindsay
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:12 AM
i disagree, the Guy. if people can't even understand the exhibitions aren't life-or-death struggles, I highly doubt they'll have much luck figuring out what life's all about.

PhoenixStorm
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:13 AM
The meaning of life lies in the chewy center of a tootsie roll pop. mmmhmmm.


oh and nice win for anna but as someone else said its an exhibition so we understand that come this time of year anna is a terror on the exhibition scene however for the remainder of the year shes eye candy for pre adolescent boys.

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:13 AM
Originally posted by MinskLynx
Can someone explain this? It was preposed that exos are silly because anybody who is serious wouldnt risk injury for upcoming important tournaments by playing them.

So why practice, you can be injured practicing? Why play tournaments before slams, you are risking injury?

Where did I say anybody serious?

You get money, match practice, exercise, new fans from those things. There is always something to come out of it. But the result doesn't matter and it's usually predetermined.

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:14 AM
Things are very hard to understand Rebecca because there hasn't been a great deal of consistancy in what has been said.

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:15 AM
Please don't be like that Hurley, you knew what I meant.

King Lindsay
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:16 AM
Actually, MinskLynx, I would say there has been a great deal of consistency in what has been said.

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:16 AM
Yes but I posted my main point posts ago. I'm not saying that nothing good comes out of it. All I'm saying is that people care far too much about the results when they are most likely irrelevant and never ever mean anything in the long run.

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:17 AM
Oh, how interesting.

King Satan
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:21 AM
Meg, don't forget to check your PM's, k? :kiss:

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:22 AM
Could my question about why a player would practice or play tuneups be adressed please?

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:24 AM
"You get money, match practice, exercise, new fans from those things. There is always something to come out of it."

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:25 AM
Which is what I said before when you asked the first time. I was lumping exhibitions into it as well. :kiss:

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:26 AM
I know I am being difficult, but when did you say that.

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:28 AM
wait, it was just like 5 seconds ago. I'm sorry.

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:30 AM
So I win, exos are not fixed.

King Lindsay
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:33 AM
MinskLynx, what is the point of that last post? Do you want to start the debate all over again?

Everything has been said. If you still believe that "exos" are totally on the level then you are incredibly dumb.

King Satan
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:33 AM
Yes you win sweetie :kiss:

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:33 AM
I said it on Page 3, babe. :)

disposablehero
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:35 AM
Well, that depends on your definition. If you mean the winner is not predetermined, I can't answer that. What I can tell you is that Monica, Anna, Sonya, and Vanessa each at times deliberately lost points during their singles matches, and especially the doubles set. Not that I was disappointed, I went there to be entertained and was very much so.

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:35 AM
Oops...it was page 4....like 20 minutes ago. ;)

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:36 AM
Pardon me King Lindsay?

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:39 AM
DH, is it possible the intentionally lost points were just unforced errors that every single player commits from time to time?

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:39 AM
Megan...read those books I suggested.

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:39 AM
For the record, I would very much like to start the debate over. I don't feel it concluded any more resolved than when it had started.

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:45 AM
Could you tell me what you are getting at instead of me tracking them down, reading them, coming back in a few days and have nobody interested in discussing them by wednesday?

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:47 AM
I need answers here.

King Satan
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:47 AM
Meg, relax hun, find something else to do lol (like talk to me)

King Satan
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:48 AM
KL, if you only knew *shakes head*

Wojtek
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:49 AM
Congrats Anna :kiss:

aussiefan83
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:51 AM
some people just dont want to give anna credit and that is very sad. no it is not as important as a tour match, but if you followed tennis you would understand that confidence is a big issue with anna and any win, whether it be an exhibition or in a tournament, is important to helping her for 2003.

i am not saying that they went at it 100% but to say that it was predetermined is ridiculuous.

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:51 AM
Megan, I've said everything I've had to say.

Over and over and over again.

Jordan.
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:52 AM
Congratulations Anna! :D

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:53 AM
Hmm, could you cut and paste then?:D I'm not joking.

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:54 AM
LOL...no I certainly cannot. :D

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:55 AM
Originally posted by aussiefan83
some people just dont want to give anna credit and that is very sad. no it is not as important as a tour match, but if you followed tennis you would understand that confidence is a big issue with anna and any win, whether it be an exhibition or in a tournament, is important to helping her for 2003.

i am not saying that they went at it 100% but to say that it was predetermined is ridiculuous.

Another guy who read none of the thread.

disposablehero
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:55 AM
Start the debate over? Why? It's simply not that important. I'm sorry not everyone was able to see the event, but many of you get to see SLAMS, and I don't.

King Satan
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:56 AM
Meg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Pm MEEEEEEEEEEEEE :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :kiss:

aussiefan83
Dec 16th, 2002, 06:58 AM
hurley- why dont you go read the thread, or better yet, use your brain!

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:00 AM
LOL :D

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:01 AM
Find me the part where anyone is discrediting Anna.

Although...I bet you could find 100 parts where people are saying exactly what you chastise them for NOT saying.

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:06 AM
The parts where her win is said to mean less because it is an exo is discrediting her, don't you think?

aussiefan83
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by King Lindsay
Hey dlandy, no, Anna beat nothing, boy. AGAIN. IT'S A FUCKING EXHIBITION WHICH MEANS NOTHING. MONICA DOESN'T PLAY THEM TO WIN, SHE PLAYS THEM FOR DOLLARS.

this discredits anna. nd when people say that the result was pre-determined, that discredits anna.

gentenaire
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:08 AM
Originally posted by MinskLynx
Can someone explain this? It was preposed that exos are silly because anybody who is serious wouldnt risk injury for upcoming important tournaments by playing them.

So why practice, you can be injured practicing? Why play tournaments before slams, you are risking injury?

This is exactly why players don't play their fullest in exos. According to Disposable, Monica didn't run down balls she'd usually run down, which means she wasn't going to take any risks. Players don't give it their all in exos, which is why exo results aren't that important.
I don't believe an exo match is entirely fixed, I do believe they're partly fixed.

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:09 AM
1. That statement looks pretty bad for Monica too.

2. I am also saying that the exhibition that Monica won last night is pointless.

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:10 AM
Tine got the gist. And is correct.

This really...isn't opinion, guys. Exos have guidelines which are predetermined.

aussiefan83
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:10 AM
i think everyone will agree that the players dont play at 100% in an exhibition, but it is the people who claimed the result was pre-determined and crap like that that are ridiculous!

jojoseph
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:12 AM
Originally posted by disposablehero
MinskLynx, if you didn't "fix" the match, it would be less entertaining. And you wouldn't be able to get a Hall Of Famer with a chronic foot injury.

ok, this is about how far I've got right now :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I have to stop right now and ask, what "exactly" is the "reason" for fixing the match in anna's favor?

hurley, you can answer this too

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:12 AM
Everyone doesn't agree about that in this thread, Aussiefan. Some people actually said everyone "tried their best."

DH and I never said the result was pre-determined.

DH's point is that there were parameters set up before the match which were followed.

My point, which I've said about five times and am going to say once again for the last time, is that this result holds no importance for anyone, and is useless in determining anything.

jojoseph
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:13 AM
Originally posted by King Lindsay
How can ANY ONE OF YOU believe that the result of this match matters at all?

You play to win, not to lose, that's why.

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:14 AM
I don't remember any player ever giving it there all at any time. If this was the case players would never not dive, scream, and literally kill themselves to win a point. No matter the stage of the match or tournament, the opponent, or the surface.

jojoseph
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by Hurley

DH's point is that there were parameters set up before the match which were followed.


that's all fine and dandy, but why?

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by jojoseph
I have to stop right now and ask, what "exactly" is the "reason" for fixing the match in anna's favor?

hurley, you can answer this too

Then I shall. :D

See...you people are reading what you want to see.

DH was there. He said that prior to the match, he figured that this would ONLY be a two-set match. And that since Anna won the first set, in spite of both players not playing as if it were a major event, per the agreement stipulated beforehand, Anna would then win a competitive second set.

According to his theory, the winner was not predetermined. Rather, the length was.

The reason? Who knows WHY they did this. I don't.

aussiefan83
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by Hurley
Everyone doesn't agree about that in this thread, Aussiefan. Some people actually said everyone "tried their best."

DH and I never said the result was pre-determined.



this is exactly why i told you to go back and read through the thread, because, you would have noticed that in my initial post, i didnt say that you specifically had said that it was predetermined, but instead i directed it at those who had said that it was pre-determined. yet you found it necessary to get all angry and tell me to read the thread!!

jojoseph
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by Hurley
Then I shall. :D

See...you people are reading what you want to see.

DH was there. He said that prior to the match, he figured that this would ONLY be a two-set match. And that since Anna won the first set, in spite of both players not playing as if it were a major event, per the agreement stipulated beforehand, Anna would then win a competitive second set.

According to his theory, the winner was not predetermined. Rather, the length was.

The reason? Who knows WHY they did this. I don't.

ok, great, and I'd like to see this agreement and/or any real evidence that suggests what he's saying isn't pure bs, and isn't a coverup for the fact that anna won, if you and him don't mind

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:25 AM
No, why I got angry is because you were fuming about things which many had said in here, and hence should not have been angry about. Also, you took these as personal affronts to Anna, which isn't the case of the disagreement at all. I don't think either player is being insulted, and if they are indirectly, they are getting equal amounts of the brunt.

King Lindsay
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:25 AM
joJoseph. You don't play exhibitions to win. you play them for money.

How many exhibitions have Monica and Anna played this winter? at least two. Monica won one, Anna won one. Maybe they had an agreement, which if you've ever read any book about tennis, you would know that occasionally players agree to trade off wins in exhibitions. Or sometimes they do the whole, you win a set, I win a set, we play for real in the third. Either way, under no circumstance was this a real match. It is not indicative of Anna getting better, it is not indicative of Monica getting worse. It does not have any bearing on what they will do in real tour-sanctioned matches. AND THIS HAS BEEN SAID, AGAIN, AND AGAIN, AND AGAIN.

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:26 AM
Jojo, he gave you some in his posts. Read them.

If this were a real match, I'd be thrilled that Anna won. But, as I've said, it's an exhibition. If she had lost 0-6 0-6, I wouldn't care. Because it doesn't mean anything.

~RedRose~
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:27 AM
Good 4 u Anna!! GO GRL!!

jojoseph
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by King Lindsay
joJoseph. You don't play exhibitions to win. you play them for money.


Anna always plays her exhibition matches to win, which is why she wins the majority of them. If for some reason, Monica chose to throw it, then that's her business, however I highly disagree that someone that cares for the sport as much as Monica, would throw a match, even an exhibition.

(see next point)

Originally posted by King Lindsay

How many exhibitions have Monica and Anna played this winter? at least two. Monica won one, Anna won one. Maybe they had an agreement,


unless I'm mistaken, anna had never beaten Monica in an exhibition match.

Originally posted by King Lindsay
which if you've ever read any book about tennis, you would know that occasionally players agree to trade off wins in exhibitions.


that's fine and if it ever did happen, then my opinion still stands, that it's wrong. If there is real evidence to back up that anna knew beforehand that the matches length or winner was predetermined, feel free to show it.

Originally posted by King Lindsay
Or sometimes they do the whole, you win a set, I win a set, we play for real in the third. Either way, under no circumstance was this a real match. It is not indicative of Anna getting better, it is not indicative of Monica getting worse. It does not have any bearing on what they will do in real tour-sanctioned matches. AND THIS HAS BEEN SAID, AGAIN, AND AGAIN, AND AGAIN.

yes, I know, and mostly by you.

You're supposed to play a match to win, not to lose. If the match isn't supposed to be a big deal, it should be announced beforehand, not lead people to believe that the players are gonna be giving their best. You're doing a great disservice to those that came to watch, as well as for the kids you are supposedly promoting tennis in that area for.

jojoseph
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by Hurley
Jojo, he gave you some in his posts. Read them.

If this were a real match, I'd be thrilled that Anna won. But, as I've said, it's an exhibition. If she had lost 0-6 0-6, I wouldn't care. Because it doesn't mean anything.

sure it does, by all indications, anna played great.

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:42 AM
And as many of us has said many times, this match is not an accurate harbinger of the future, for either player.

My point from the very beginning is that you guys shouldn't put any stock into this result. I'm sure Anna played swell because Anna is a great player...but jeez, really, they don't mean anything.

That's all I'm trying to say and I'm exhausted :sad: ;)

King Lindsay
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:43 AM
JoJoseph, Anna did beat Monica in an exhibition match. YESTERDAY. READ THE THREAD.

I'm the only one saying that? Then what has Hurley been saying? what has disposable Hero been saying?

look, it IS announced to the fans that the match isn't a big deal. That is why they are called EXHIBITIONS.

King Satan
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:43 AM
Hurley, I think you need a break lol

disposablehero
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:43 AM
Originally posted by King Lindsay

It is not indicative of Anna getting better, it is not indicative of Monica getting worse. It does not have any bearing on what they will do in real tour-sanctioned matches. AND THIS HAS BEEN SAID, AGAIN, AND AGAIN, AND AGAIN.

Actually, this event does have a bearing on tour matches, and with how well the players are performing, but people are missing it. It's not the RESULT that tells the tale, its the way that the players played, which I thought I had explained fairly well once or twice when I wasn't busy explaining the concept. Anna played some good, aggressive tennis with a fairly low incidence of errors. I think she would have lost a all-stops match with Monica in 2 sets, but she looked like a top 20 player to me.

jojoseph
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:44 AM
Originally posted by disposablehero
TennisIlove, I assume you were also there, then?

I can't tell you exactly how they determine the winner, but I can tell you that it is generally decided beforehand whether it will be 2 or 3 sets, and I can tell you that they try and make all the sets either 6-4 or 7-6.

for example, there he says what's supposedly happened, but he's not saying why

why go only 2, and why go for a full 3 sets?

jojoseph
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:46 AM
Originally posted by King Lindsay
JoJoseph, Anna did beat Monica in an exhibition match. YESTERDAY. READ THE THREAD.

I'm the only one saying that? Then what has Hurley been saying? what has disposable Hero been saying?

look, it IS announced to the fans that the match isn't a big deal. That is why they are called EXHIBITIONS.

she did not, she lost to her

http://sports.yahoo.com/ten/news/ap/20021214/ap-seles-kournikova.html

get out of this thread before I bury you

disposablehero
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:48 AM
Originally posted by jojoseph
ok, great, and I'd like to see this agreement and/or any real evidence that suggests what he's saying isn't pure bs, and isn't a coverup for the fact that anna won, if you and him don't mind

Well, jojoseph, I am sorry. I do not have a videotape. And while I have a feeling this match may get on TV in Winnipeg one of these days, I won't guarantee it. If you saw the whole event, you would know. I can't say for sure about the junior match, or the wheelchair one, both may have been hard-fought and straight-up. But all 3 pro matches were constructed to a certain extent. Without even seeing it, doesn't 5 sets all being either 6-4 or 7-6 seem a little odd?

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:48 AM
Jojo, KL is referring to the match that started this whole thread, which Anna won.

jojoseph
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by disposablehero
Actually, this event does have a bearing on tour matches, and with how well the players are performing, but people are missing it. It's not the RESULT that tells the tale, its the way that the players played, which I thought I had explained fairly well once or twice when I wasn't busy explaining the concept. Anna played some good, aggressive tennis with a fairly low incidence of errors. I think she would have lost a all-stops match with Monica in 2 sets, but she looked like a top 20 player to me.

would you mind telling everyone why they would rig everything in the first place

quit beating around the bush

disposablehero
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by jojoseph
she did not, she lost to her

http://sports.yahoo.com/ten/news/ap/20021214/ap-seles-kournikova.html

get out of this thread before I bury you

Oh crap. Now we have someone else again coming into this thread halfway and failing to understand they have played on consecutive nights.

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:51 AM
*scratches head*

Hmmmmmm, I think I made a post several pages ago where I said something sensible that is not *necessarily* inconsistent with what disposable is saying. For the record, disposable sounds quite plausible to me, but I never give much weight to exhibitions anyway. Anyway, some of you guys are sure hot under the collar in the pages since. Calling people "idiots", etc., doesn't help, of course.

Just promise me, KL and Hurley, that next time someone bags Anna for *losing* an exhibition match you'll jump on them from a great height and remind them that it's only an exhibition. I think the Anna fans are probably unhappy because there's a sense that they (we) and their fave just can't win on this board, no matter what she does.

disposablehero
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by jojoseph
would you mind telling everyone why they would rig everything in the first place

quit beating around the bush

All right, that is enough. I've tried to share my enjoyable evening with you people, but I have put up with this BS for hours from an ever changing cast of characters. If you don't want to believe what I am telling you I saw, then I suggest you should go ahead and not believe it.

Good night.

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:53 AM
What made you think unforced errors were intentionally lost points?

jojoseph
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by disposablehero
Well, jojoseph, I am sorry. I do not have a videotape. And while I have a feeling this match may get on TV in Winnipeg one of these days, I won't guarantee it. If you saw the whole event, you would know. I can't say for sure about the junior match, or the wheelchair one, both may have been hard-fought and straight-up. But all 3 pro matches were constructed to a certain extent. Without even seeing it, doesn't 5 sets all being either 6-4 or 7-6 seem a little odd?

not odd, unusual perhaps, yes.

why not go three sets, wouldn't that be more entertaining?

Originally posted by Hurley
Jojo, KL is referring to the match that started this whole thread, which Anna won.

oh....my... god, and he/she didn't know that when I said "had", that meant "up until the match anna won today"

Crazy Canuck
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:54 AM
Just promise me, KL and Hurley, that next time someone bags Anna for *losing* an exhibition match you'll jump on them from a great height and remind them that it's only an exhibition. I think the Anna fans are probably unhappy because there's a sense that they (we) and their fave just can't win on this board, no matter what she does.

Actually, some fans of Anna are realistic and don't think exhibitons are a big deal. Some don't give an ass what some losers on a message board think.

Example, me.

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:55 AM
Jouissant, I won't, because I don't concern myself with anything that doesn't involve ranking points (aside from Davis/Fed Cup). I couldn't care less if Anna never wins another game in exhibitions, and that has been my point from the very beginning.

No one should care or give any weight to this result. It's an exhibition.

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:57 AM
Well, Rebecca, I've pretty relaxed about too, n'est-ce pas? You've read my two posts on the thread, I take it? But I think Anna's fans cop a lot of provocation, for whatever reasons.

disposablehero
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:58 AM
OK, I will squeeze in one last explanation, since I keep hearing this incessant "3 sets" droning.

4000 people in Winnipeg aren't worth 3 sets. We were a pretty good crowd, but the players gave us the value our market dictated. Expecting them to run around wearing themselves out for another half hour or more is unrealistic. Remember, these are 6-4 and 7-6 sets. That's 23 games, one of them a tiebreak. That's more than some 3 set matches.

Now this is good night.

jojoseph
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by disposablehero
All right, that is enough. I've tried to share my enjoyable evening with you people, but I have put up with this BS for hours from an ever changing cast of characters. If you don't want to believe what I am telling you I saw, then I suggest you should go ahead and not believe it.

Good night.

perhaps, you don't realize what you're actually saying and what kind of reaction you'd expect.

Anna beats Monica in a close match, a match anna usually doesn't win, and you expect people, including fans of anna, to believe that Monica caved in and gave it to anna?

Yes, the match isn't a tournament match, but when you say Monica caved in and gave the match to anna, you're taking credit away from anna for winning the match. You justify that, by saying that the match doesn't mean anything, thereby taking credit again away from anna.

And you still have yet to give a reason for them planning "anything" out, instead of them just playing it out with no pressure on them to do anything that was predetermined.

Crazy Canuck
Dec 16th, 2002, 07:59 AM
The parts where her win is said to mean less because it is an exo is discrediting her, don't you think?

No. It is pointing out reality that an exo is not exactly a main tour win.

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by jojoseph
oh....my... god, and he/she didn't know that when I said "had", that meant "up until the match anna won today"

Yes, but that was after the post in which he said that Monica and Anna had split "at least two" matches, in which he was referring to the match tonight as one of them.

Crazy Canuck
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by jouissant
Well, Rebecca, I've pretty relaxed about too, n'est-ce pas? You've read my two posts on the thread, I take it? But I think Anna's fans cop a lot of provocation, for whatever reasons.

Yes, you are.

But you weren't refering to yourself, I assume.

I just think it's a big waste of time, and extremely stupid for people to be in here defending Anna , when NO ONE IS INSULTING HER (my frusteration lies not with you btw, it lies with this entire thread).

I don't seem to recall Hurley, or DH, or KL or whoever else showing up in the exo thread from the other night yelling "you go Monica! You are the best! This exo win shows it!"

Because they had the same feelings on that exo as well.

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:04 AM
Oh, I'm positivo I was yelling that, being the huge Seles fan that I am.

Crazy Canuck
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:05 AM
OKAY - people!

If someone is saying that Monica didn't play her best and that allowed Anna to win - THEY ARE ALSO SAYING THAT THE OTHER NIGHT, ANNA RELAXED A BIT AND LET MONICA WIN.

Must everything be spelled out for you people.

Jesus christ.

I was more reasonable when I was 5.

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:06 AM
*spent*

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:07 AM
No. It is pointing out reality that an exo is not exactly a main tour win.

Saying that an exo win doesn't count as much as a tour win is discrediting.

Crazy Canuck
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:08 AM
On the bright side Hurley, you will never have problems remembering to breathe unlike some people around here.

jojoseph
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:08 AM
Originally posted by disposablehero
OK, I will squeeze in one last explanation, since I keep hearing this incessant "3 sets" droning.

4000 people in Winnipeg aren't worth 3 sets. We were a pretty good crowd, but the players gave us the value our market dictated. Expecting them to run around wearing themselves out for another half hour or more is unrealistic. Remember, these are 6-4 and 7-6 sets. That's 23 games, one of them a tiebreak. That's more than some 3 set matches.

Now this is good night.

These are the same players that play, at times, 3 to 5 matches a week for a whole year. I don't think you'd be asking for a whole lot, to expect them to play two matches in consecutive days, even tough two setters.

If Monica was not running all to well, I'd blame that on the fact that she may very well have been tired.

Crazy Canuck
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:09 AM
Saying that an exo win doesn't count as much as a tour win is discrediting.

OMG!
This circular thinking MUST stop!

WE ARE ALSO DISCREDITING MONICA IN THIS CASE, BECAUSE THE REVERSED HAPPENED THE OTHER NIGHT.

MONICA FANS AROUND THE WORLD, GET IN HERE AND DEFEND HER INTEGRITY!

AAAHHHHHHHHH!

Crazy Canuck
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:10 AM
NO ONE IS DISCREDITING!

IF IN YOUR MIND IT IS< THAT IS YYOOOUUUUR PROBLEM!

QUIT TELLING ME WHAT I MEANT FOR FUCKS SAKE!

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:10 AM
OMG!
This circular thinking MUST stop!

WE ARE ALSO DISCREDITING MONICA IN THIS CASE, BECAUSE THE REVERSED HAPPENED THE OTHER NIGHT.

MONICA FANS AROUND THE WORLD, GET IN HERE AND DEFEND HER INTEGRITY!

AAAHHHHHHHHH!

I know it does. Are you accepting now that it is discrediting?

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:11 AM
If this is so frustrating for you, I would suggest for your health and sanity that you forget about this thread.

jojoseph
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by Rebecca

I just think it's a big waste of time, and extremely stupid for people to be in here defending Anna , when NO ONE IS INSULTING HER (my frusteration lies not with you btw, it lies with this entire thread).


when anna beats someone, and someone tries saying that the other player threw the match, which is indeed what dh said even if he said that she caved in in only the second set, that is a direct insult to anna's playing ability, unless anna knew the match's outcome beforehand.

There is no evidence to suggest anna did so it could be taken to be fundamental anna-bashing.

this is common sense.

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:15 AM
No, no, I didn't accuse Hurley etc of bagging Anna last time. I'm just not sure why they can't let Anna's fans have their moment of fun after everyone else has been bagging her lately. Your buddy KL has used very strong language without a lot of provocation as far as I can see. And if the Anna fans deserve being jumped on like this, why don't the Anna haters? :confused:

As far as I am concerned, it's an exo. Even if they play for real, you have to assume that the pressures are quite different from those in a real match. It's not a test of Anna's mental strength, which is so important. Also, the way these scores are all coming out about 7-6 6-4 or whatever suggests that there is an element of fudging to get respectable scores, at the very least. We all know that this sort of thing is at least rumoured to happen in exos - with both the guys and the girls.

But, as disposable says, and I said, it is some indication that Anna is fit, fast and sharp. If the result is determined by "whoever wins the first set gets to win the whole match", that suggests Anna was genuinely playing well. Even if it was *totally* fixed, at least it gives some display of what her skills and fitness are currently like, just as watching her in practice would.

All in all, I am pretty happy about it, not too excited, but indulgent towards those who are more excited than me.

I think the Collins Cup, where Anna also played well, might be a better indication. Unless someone has info otherwise, I tend to think that that was played for real, or else the overall result would have been closer. But I don't really know. All I can say is that these exos give some slight comfort - but only slight - to Anna's fans, which disposable seems to think, too.

Crazy Canuck
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:16 AM
I do not accept it is discrediting.

I know what I mean, and you do not.

If you wish to continue to argue about what I did or did not mean, you are welcome to continue to sound ridiculous.

Crazy Canuck
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:18 AM
And if the Anna fans deserve being jumped on like this, why don't the Anna haters?

Who are the Anna haters in here? Quotes please.

I am not interested in what you think such and such a person meant or implied.

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:18 AM
Are you accusing me of sounding ridiculous?

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by jojoseph
when anna beats someone, and someone tries saying that the other player threw the match, which is indeed what dh said even if he said that she caved in in only the second set, that is a direct insult to anna's playing ability, unless anna knew the match's outcome beforehand.

There is no evidence to suggest anna did so it could be taken to be fundamental anna-bashing.

this is common sense.

What is also common sense -- no, what IS common sense, your post is not -- is this:

If the result had been reversed, NOTHING I said this whole night would be any different.

Do you ALL understand that?

Monica def. Anna 6-4 7-6: I say the SAME THINGS.

Got it? Good. Good night....

Crazy Canuck
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:22 AM
I'm just not sure why they can't let Anna's fans have their moment of fun after everyone else has been bagging her lately.

I don't see why they can't have their day in the sun, with people posting the fact that it was an exo. If they have such a problem with reality, perhaps they should try the ignore function, or simply brush past the posts.

I like Anna, I root for Anna, and I don't have to react like a total moron (aside from above when I went off with the caps).

Your buddy KL has used very strong language without a lot of provocation as far as I can see.

Well personally, I have never supported him in this thread. If people want to go at KL for bad language, that is their problem. If they want to go off for his actual point which I happen to agree with, than I will have a word or two on it.

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:23 AM
Oh Becca, really, I don't have time for this. I have real work to do.

I'm not having a shot at you. As far as I can see, your contribution to the thread has been fine and reasonable. Let's wait until next time Anna *loses* an exo. I predict that there'll be people in the relevant thread claiming it proves Anna is a ratshit player, should retire, etc. If you haven't ever seen this happen I'm not going to scratch around for half an hour proving that it does. We'll just wait until next time.

Can we leave it at that, please? I was actually trying to be the voice of reason here, as I thought you were being. :D

Crazy Canuck
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:23 AM
Megan - if you insist on reading my posts and suggesting that I meant something I did not, yes I think that is ridiculous.

I like Anna, I am not discrediting.

I am saying that exos in general mean nothing to me ever.

Period.

They are a good guage for a players fitness and health. The end.

jojoseph
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by Hurley
What is also common sense -- no, what IS common sense, your post is not -- is this:

If the result had been reversed, NOTHING I said this whole night would be any different.

Do you ALL understand that?

Monica def. Anna 6-4 7-6: I say the SAME THINGS.

Got it? Good. Good night....

If Monica had beaten Anna, nobody would have made a big deal about this match fixing bullsh!t, now would they?

However, anna did so of course now when you say Monica threw it, there's a controversy.

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:24 AM
It is no matter wether you would have felt the same with Monica. The matter is that Anna won and she is being discredited.

tennisIlove09
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:25 AM
I'm surprised this is still going on. I could only read up to page three, because I thought I was wasting my time.

It's an ex. guess. Relax. Anna won. Good for her. Does it change her ranking? No. Does it change Monica's ranking? No.

Let's move on.

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:26 AM
Jojo: exhibitions are fixed. I tried to dance around it. But it's true. Sorry guys...they are. This, again, is not new news. End of THAT discussion.

Megan: not by me. Come at someone else with that argument.

Crazy Canuck
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:26 AM
. Let's wait until next time Anna *loses* an exo. I predict that there'll be people in the relevant thread claiming it proves Anna is a ratshit player, should retire, etc.

I agree 100%. And I guarentee you that DH, Hurley, KL, and I - will not be among those people.

Thus going at any of us, is a waste of time (not YOU, but those like jojo and whatnot who have been).

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:27 AM
I am saying that exos in general mean nothing to me ever.

Mean nothing to you or mean nothing?

Megan - if you insist on reading my posts and suggesting that I meant something I did not, yes I think that is ridiculous.

You can hardly expect me to do otherwise when logically, your statements clearly mean what I have said.

Crazy Canuck
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:28 AM
Megan, I will not adress the discrediting issue again.

You may continue to repeat yourself till the cows come home, but I will not.

I have said what I meant, I know what I meant.

If you want to be offended by utter crap on a message board that isn't even insulting, that is your problem.

Hurley
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:28 AM
Anyway, I'm compiling my posts in a "Best of Hurley" book to be released in late '03. If you cannot wait until then, feel free to browse my posts to see how I really feel about this topic, not how other people think I feel.

I have finals to study for, which means I will be watching lots of TV and finally starting Eggers' "A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius," not repeating myself for the umpteenth time in this thread. So I will TTYL. :)

Crazy Canuck
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:30 AM
That's a shame Hurley.

Some people around here need it repeated at least 50 times before they start to understand.

Even then they are still stuck on what you "REALLY" meant.

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:31 AM
If you want to be offended by utter crap on a message board that isn't even insulting, that is your problem.

Haven't you stated numerous times the frustration you have with this?
WEREN'T YOU TYPING IN CAPITOLS TO CONVEY SOME SORT OF HEIGHTENED EMOTION?
Aren't you the insulted one?

gentenaire
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:31 AM
Megan, where did Rebecca, Hurley, Pea, etc say that it was predetermined that Anna would win?

What was said was that it was determined it would go to two sets, the person who won the first set would win the second too. The first set wasn't predetermined, the second set was.

Crazy Canuck
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:33 AM
Oh, Tine - you are totally right.

But this thread is beating a dead horse over and over and over again.

I have never seen a more aggravating conversation and such apparently poor reading comprehension in one place at one time before.

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:33 AM
Where was it said I said they predetermined Anna would win?

I remember me talking about exos being fixed as a whole. Feel free to show me textual evidence that shows otherwise.

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:34 AM
Okay, Becca, we agree. I'm just puzzled why you think I said (or implied?) that KL, Hurley, you and disposable were among "those people". I never said that or even thought it. All I said was that I'd like to see KL and Hurley being as tough on "those people" as they are on the Anna fans in this thread. Hmmmm, looking at your post again, perhaps you agree with this, too, so I don't know why we seem to be arguing.

Btw, I don't think you and disposable *have* been especially tough, which is why I didn't mention you in that context (or I don't think I did; I'm starting to lose track here :) ). You have both been quite moderate in the way you have expressed things, as I've also tried to be.

MinskLynx
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:34 AM
have never seen a more aggravating conversation

Thank you for answering my questions on who is the insulted one.

gentenaire
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:37 AM
Then why is insulting to Anna to say she won the first set which wasn't predetermined? Disposable said Anna played well, how is this discrediting Anna?

jojoseph
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by Beggin' Beguine
Megan, where did Rebecca, Hurley, Pea, etc say that it was predetermined that Anna would win?

What was said was that it was determined it would go to two sets, the person who won the first set would win the second too. The first set wasn't predetermined, the second set was.

WHY DO THEY NOT WANT THE MATCH TO GO TO THREE SETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!

can I really be any more clearer than that?

feel free to actually answer the question

Jordan.
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:37 AM
You're a great arguer, Megan :)

Crazy Canuck
Dec 16th, 2002, 08:38 AM
Great aguers adress the point, and do not just repeat themselves 200 times.