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*JR*
Dec 28th, 2012, 09:55 PM
India gang rape victim dies in Singapore hospital

Posted 2012/12/28 at 5:09 pm EST

SINGAPORE, Dec. 28, 2012 (Reuters) — The Indian gang-rape victim whose assault in New Delhi triggered nationwide protests has died, the Singapore hospital treating her said on Saturday.

"We are very sad to report that the patient passed away peacefully at 4.45 a.m. on Dec 29, 2012 (11:45 a.m. E Friday). Her family and officials from the High Commission of India were by her side," Mount Elizabeth Hospital Chief Executive Officer Kelvin Loh said in a statement.

The 23-year-old medical student, who was severely beaten, raped for almost an hour and thrown out of a moving bus in New Delhi on Dec 16, was airlifted to Singapore on December 26 for specialist treatment.

The attack had sparked demonstrations across India, culminating last weekend in pitched battles between police and protesters outraged over the lack of safety for women in the capital.

"Despite all efforts by a team of eight specialists in Mount Elizabeth Hospital to keep her stable, her condition continued to deteriorate over these two days. She had suffered from severe organ failure following serious injuries to her body and brain."

"She was courageous in fighting for her life for so long against the odds but the trauma to her body was too severe for her to overcome," he added.

fifty-fifty
Dec 28th, 2012, 09:57 PM
RIP:sad:

KournikovaFan91
Dec 28th, 2012, 10:06 PM
So sad. :sad:

hablo
Dec 28th, 2012, 10:54 PM
That is very sad news. RIP.

I hope her attackers go to jail for a long time.

wild.river
Dec 28th, 2012, 10:58 PM
:sad:
rip
hope the fuckers get the death penalty

*JR*
Dec 28th, 2012, 11:20 PM
:sad:
rip
hope the fuckers get the death penalty

I don't think that can (legally) happen, as a law was introduced to provide for it only since the attack; thus using it in this case would be ex post facto (http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/ex_post_facto).

Three things are especially outrageous about the attack itself. One is that they beat her (and the guy with her that night) with an iron pipe. :fiery: They passed thru several police checkpoints during the attack. :eek: And they finally threw her out of a moving vehicle. :mad:

The current Home Minister (http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2012-12-25/news/35999220_1_minister-sushil-kumar-shinde-home-minister-protestors) :spit: even complained about not the attack itself, but the demonstrations against it (and the police laxity on this). That jerk will likely have to resign, but never should have been in the job to begin with; he was promoted to it from the job of Power Minister... the day after a major blackout covering most of the area from Delhi to Kolkata some months ago. :help:

Frankly, incompetent Prime Minister Manmohan Singh should resign, with new elections called. I wonder if he'll try to avert that by hiding behind he (a Sikh) being the country's first non-Hindu Prime Minister. :scratch: BTW, NDTV (http://www.ndtv.com) is probably the best source for the inevitable mass public outrage to com today across India. (Where its nearly 6 AM Saturday now).

tennislover
Dec 29th, 2012, 12:22 AM
:sad: RIP

jail (for a long time) for the attackers

Mynarco
Dec 29th, 2012, 12:31 AM
Rip. India still has a long way to go

GOATdin0931
Dec 29th, 2012, 12:45 AM
So sad :sad: RIP beautiful soul :awww: :hug:

njnetswill
Dec 29th, 2012, 01:32 AM
Respect to the Indian people for taking to the streets. Far too often rape is ignored and swept under the rug, or even tolerated and accepted by society.

tennisbum79
Dec 29th, 2012, 02:02 AM
Can someone shed any light on the genesis of the rape?
Were the rapist fellow students and this was random.

Few years back, there was an article where Indian women were complaining that men routinely grope them on the commuter train from or to work during rush hours.
Was the demonstration triggered by the cumulative effect of incidents where women feel they are not protected?

tennisbum79
Dec 29th, 2012, 02:05 AM
India gang rape victim dies in Singapore hospital

Posted 2012/12/28 at 5:09 pm EST

SINGAPORE, Dec. 28, 2012 (Reuters) — The Indian gang-rape victim whose assault in New Delhi triggered nationwide protests has died, the Singapore hospital treating her said on Saturday.

"We are very sad to report that the patient passed away peacefully at 4.45 a.m. on Dec 29, 2012 (11:45 a.m. E Friday). Her family and officials from the High Commission of India were by her side," Mount Elizabeth Hospital Chief Executive Officer Kelvin Loh said in a statement.

The 23-year-old medical student, who was severely beaten, raped for almost an hour and thrown out of a moving bus in New Delhi on Dec 16, was airlifted to Singapore on December 26 for specialist treatment.

The attack had sparked demonstrations across India, culminating last weekend in pitched battles between police and protesters outraged over the lack of safety for women in the capital.

"Despite all efforts by a team of eight specialists in Mount Elizabeth Hospital to keep her stable, her condition continued to deteriorate over these two days. She had suffered from severe organ failure following serious injuries to her body and brain."

"She was courageous in fighting for her life for so long against the odds but the trauma to her body was too severe for her to overcome," he added.
It must have been brutal and violent for the woman to die.

THis is why, in the USA, rape is increasingly referred to as an act of physical and psychological violence.; not just sexual violation.

xoxRJ
Dec 29th, 2012, 02:16 AM
She will most certainly be remembered as a martyr for women's rights not only in India, but the world.

tennisbum79
Dec 29th, 2012, 02:18 AM
She will most certainly be remembered as a martyr for women's rights not only in India, but the world.
I hope something comes out of this.

Utautai
Dec 29th, 2012, 05:03 AM
This is just so sad... :sad:
RIP
:hug: for her family

Dominic
Dec 29th, 2012, 05:21 AM
Absolutely horrible creatures... hope they get what they deserve

R.I.P.

tennisbum79
Dec 29th, 2012, 06:00 AM
Some perspectives.
Apparently, the issue of rape is a long standing problem in India.
Never easy for the victim as she is not always looked upon with sympathy from society, law enforcement

But this could be a watershed moment that brings about a change.

YXMV68QxVFU

Ashi
Dec 29th, 2012, 06:29 AM
I think they will prosecute with the death penalty as an end result( It's still not a given though). What with the public sentiment and protests going for any less will be a bad call by the Government. Yet the onus on identifying the accused is on the victim! The way rape cases are tried here is shameful and regressive.

Life imprisonment is only 14 years here. So, death penalty seems like a valid result, because this brutal assault qualifies as a rarest of rare case and hence the death penalty.

This I hope is a water shed moment. This happens way too often yet people are immunised to this.
I refuse to believe that the accused have not done this before. How can you have the confidence to pull off this brutal crime when atleast one of them is not criminally inclinded or has done this before? People are demanding an amendment to the law and a database of previous offenders.

Delhi at the moment is a fortress. Everyone from RAF to the CRPF is deployed. This shows the anger will not die down.
Yet, people are milking this case for political mileage. It is like a free for all. Disgusting.

I'm avoiding the telly and twitter since last night when the news of her passing came in. It makes me really depressed.

Ashi
Dec 29th, 2012, 06:42 AM
http://greatbong.net/2012/12/21/the-sexual-violence-national-outrage-playbook/#more-46130
This seems like a balanced view with going overboard with the anger and frustration.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A_RCiIzCAAAYDXa.jpg

Ashi
Dec 29th, 2012, 06:52 AM
Also, there was a incident about two young adults getting killed when they fought men who were trying to eve tease their women.
The trial has not begun yet and a year has passed.

Lin Lin
Dec 29th, 2012, 07:12 AM
I mean,no one helped the girl considering they were in a moving vehicle?:sad:

This is so sad,I hope these animals will be punished severely:fiery:

Start da Game
Dec 29th, 2012, 07:29 AM
they will get the death penalty.......it's almost confirmed......our government is good at eye-wash activities......the current ruling party are the most impotent and biggest scum of the country......

Ashi
Dec 29th, 2012, 07:33 AM
I mean,no one helped the girl considering they were in a moving vehicle?:sad:

This is so sad,I hope these animals will be punished severely:fiery:
There was no one on that bus except for the girl and her male friend and those criminals.
In hindsight I'd say it was pure foolishness of the couple for getting in to a private bus at that time of the night, but that is besides the point.Delhi being the capital of the country, still does not have a proper public bus system. Those accused had taken that bus out for a 'joy' ride.

Ashi
Dec 29th, 2012, 07:41 AM
http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/nation/a-woman-in-the-city
A woman's perspective on her safety.

Start da Game
Dec 29th, 2012, 08:13 AM
http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/nation/a-woman-in-the-city
A woman's perspective on her safety.

there is something horribly wrong with delhi......i think 20% of the reason for these crimes is because of their longing for westerness......let's face it, they are neither indian nor totally western by culture anymore......now that's a critical situation......mad heads are provoked easily in such situations......

Ashi
Dec 29th, 2012, 08:29 AM
there is something horribly wrong with delhi......i think 20% of the reason for these crimes is because of their longing for westerness......let's face it, they are neither indian nor totally western by culture anymore......now that's a critical situation......mad heads are provoked easily in such situations......
I'm sorry but I don't agree. Westerness? What is that?

bulava
Dec 29th, 2012, 09:22 AM
Rip. India still has a long way to go
This is another ignorance. On the contrary, women are safe in India on *some* parameters. What many people (in India and western folks as well) don't know is many developed countries are not that shining either. Example, let's take the US:

Sexual Violence, Stalking, and Intimate Partner Violence Widespread in the US. Key findings:

=> Nearly 1 in 5 women has been raped at some time in her life.
=> One in 4 women has been a victim of severe physical violence by an intimate partner in her lifetime.

Read more: http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2011/p1214_sexual_violence.html

So what people missing here is *only* applying tough laws (taking the US as case) doesn't help at all. This problem needs multi-level strategy on a short and long term:

1) Education from Govt and NGOs on many levels for either sex
2) Media campaign on safety (minus B$ PR dramas on channels)
3) More child interaction (boys/girls) since school age (co-ed)
4) Teachers take up social education classes on manners/mixing (sexes)
5) Change in attitude - women not be portrayed as sexual objects etc
6) Active role Social institutions in rural area is very important
7) Unbiased and severe Punishment - no leniency for any sex

I don't think leaders in this country understand all those complicated parameters which are crying for a big overhaul. They only indulge in either Vote Bank politics or Sensationalizing/Politicizing the issues. NONE of the parties have the ability to lead this great country.

But one thing is for sure. Capital Punishment is ruled out because The Supreme Court of India ruled ~30% cases filed under IPC 498(a) are fake (I personally know one case of Dr. Ambati from the US. Then US Govt got careful and raised a few advisories against mingling with Indian women! This is another example how some bad people bring bad name to the nation).

So there is every chance for abuse and misuse if they vote for Capital Punishment. Even 10% innocent death rate is NOT acceptable (means 100 out of 1000 executed will be dead for nothing!)

bulava
Dec 29th, 2012, 09:35 AM
Forgot to add:

Ask these politicians and many people in India:

How many children died in 2011 lack of medicare/malnutrition etc - 1.6 million!!
How many people died in 2011 on roads - 136,000
How many people died in 2011 by committing suicides - 134,000 (I help couple of farmers since 2007 so I know very much their living conditions)

I wrote many times to Govt. to address these issues, along with Women's issues too. Here most political morons talk/fight only for their religion/caste/parties/states and what not crap. What about those DEAD PEOPLE per year?

Start da Game
Dec 29th, 2012, 10:29 AM
Forgot to add:

Ask these politicians and many people in India:

How many children died in 2011 lack of medicare/malnutrition etc - 1.6 million!!
How many people died in 2011 on roads - 136,000
How many people died in 2011 by committing suicides - 134,000 (I help couple of farmers since 2007 so I know very much their living conditions)

I wrote many times to Govt. to address these issues, along with Women's issues too. Here most political morons talk/fight only for their religion/caste/parties/states and what not crap. What about those DEAD PEOPLE per year?

agreed......reservations and caste politics are more dangerous than diseases like plague and AIDS......

bulava
Dec 29th, 2012, 10:30 AM
Two more points I wanted to add:

8) Role of Parents: This is a big problem here in terms of raising the kids. My parents never taught/raised me with a bias over my younger twin sisters. We all were treated with same rights/choices, within the acceptable boundaries for everyone. This isn't the case with many parents in India because most of them are Male biased. This is the sole reason branching out as another problem - enormous Female Foeticide rates (again India isn't alone, but this biased behavior ISN'T acceptable). So Parents must learn and become more mature. Teach and treat both sexes equally.

9) Alcohol and Drugs: This is a global daemon be it in kids, youth or work force. I've solid data in this regard and fight against its influence in my employees who come from rural and semi-urban areas. Today my work force in my companies are Alcohol addiction free. I've seen lives, families and bright futures of children getting destroyed because of this menace. But Govts. doesn't see this problem. Most politicians, officials have become greedy and blind people.

So crack down on them without giving any second thoughts. We don't need an economy based on their sales (many States here earn loads of Excise and other Taxes - big states reap billions of $ per state per year). This should be top in terms of priority.

Forget Govts., even many people (especially from Urban) don't agree on those points. They think/feel NO NO this issue isn't applicable. But if we revisit all the Rape and Assault cases, more than 2/3rd are caused my Men falling victims to Alcohol and/or Drugs.

There must be stringent laws against this menace, impartial and unbiased. Anyone remembers the latest DUI case against Senator Mike Crapo (Idaho)? He was a good Senator but he fell for Alcohol. He was caught with 0.14 or so a few days ago, and got Jan 4th as Court date.

v=iwiVQxW2DEc

This is what we want here in India. Crack down and speedy justice.

Start da Game
Dec 29th, 2012, 11:05 AM
I'm sorry but I don't agree. Westerness? What is that?

everyone knows that delhites are fast adopting western ways of living and that was never going to fit well with our traditions......

all i am saying is that our country should either be like the well known india or should fully transform into a western country where even prostitution is legal......at the moment delhi is neither and in the middle of both......so it's a clash of cultures and opinions between peoples in the same region......now that is a dangerous situation......

i am in no way supporting the criminals like some of the human rights activists are doing(headless idiots)......they are horrible creatures in the society and i believe that those six criminals must be hanged to death right away.......

but at the same time, let's also strive towards not opening up such opportunities for the "mad heads" in the first place......

p.s. i am not writing this post because of this incident at all......the girl just boarded some random bus and what happened is very unfortunate......so this is NOT pointed at her at all......i am rather criticizing delhi for opening up opportunities for bastards.......

Ashi
Dec 29th, 2012, 11:43 AM
but at the same time, let's also strive towards not opening up such opportunities for the "mad heads" in the first place......

Please enlighten me on this.

heavyhorse
Dec 29th, 2012, 11:54 AM
R.I.P and contrary to what the Chief Executive Officer said, I highly doubt she 'passed away peacefully'.

It's good that there has been uproar in India over this. Women are speaking out against the government and police.

Beat
Dec 29th, 2012, 12:18 PM
hope the fuckers get the death penalty

typical kneejerk reaction that doesn't help anyone, certainly not the women that get abused, raped and killed every day.

i must admit i'm always very wary when - almost out of the blue - a story that gets repeated probably every week becomes worldwide news. people who usually don't give a fuck act all enraged and shocked.

but i do hope this changes a certain attitude in indian society.

Ashi
Dec 29th, 2012, 12:30 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A_SLNreCcAA3j36.jpg

Woah! Someone hold up a mirror.
These are reactions from our political class.:o:o

courtsey:twitter

Chris 84
Dec 29th, 2012, 12:34 PM
Rip. India still has a long way to go

sure it does, as does every country where rape takes place and every country in which women are discriminated against. in other words, everywhere. i'll readily admit that i dunno how safe the average indian woman is compared to the average british, french or american woman, but i know that all these countries have a long way to go as well on this issue.

Woah! Someone hold up a mirror.
These are reactions from our political class.:o:o

courtsey:twitter

wow, that's quite disgusting

gentenaire
Dec 29th, 2012, 12:42 PM
sure it does, as does every country where rape takes place and every country in which women are discriminated against. in other words, everywhere. i'll readily admit that i dunno how safe the average indian woman is compared to the average british, french or american woman, but i know that all these countries have a long way to go as well on this issue.


Judging by that article Ashi posted in this thread (women's perspective), there is a big difference and India has a longer way to go than other countries. I cannot imagine what it must be like to live in constant fear for your safety, when doing day to day things.

But yes, there are men everywhere, in every country, who think it's the woman's fault when she gets raped e.g. that Italian priest recently.

kwilliams
Dec 29th, 2012, 01:01 PM
Appalling. How does this kind of thing happen in this day and age!? That poor woman. I agree that it is doubtful that she died peacefully.

Start da Game
Dec 29th, 2012, 01:15 PM
laughing at people bullshitting about india having a long way to go......what about the mass rapes in london on english women? women are not safe in many countries......

just because the entire india roared on this, it doesn't mean rapes are happening only in india......

Flavia P.
Dec 29th, 2012, 01:17 PM
Absolutely horrible.

gentenaire
Dec 29th, 2012, 01:52 PM
it doesn't mean rapes are happening only in india......

can you show me where I said that?

I'm a women. I've never needed a driver, I can take public transport alone, even at night. That's the difference. Of course rapes happen everywhere, but it does seem like the general attitude towards women is different in Delhi. And yes, there are lot a countries where it's equally bad. But you're not going to change the situation if you respond to everything with "yes, but it happens in other countries too". If you want change, you have to admit that something is horribly wrong in the first place.

tennisbum79
Dec 29th, 2012, 01:59 PM
This is another ignorance. On the contrary, women are safe in India on *some* parameters. What many people (in India and western folks as well) don't know is many developed countries are not that shining either. Example, let's take the US:

Sexual Violence, Stalking, and Intimate Partner Violence Widespread in the US. Key findings:

=> Nearly 1 in 5 women has been raped at some time in her life.
=> One in 4 women has been a victim of severe physical violence by an intimate partner in her lifetime.

This is not helpful.
Pointing finger at the USA does not address the endemic issue of rape in India.
I can undersdand your pride and feel compelled to defend India because you think it is being unfairly ttreated amid this incident, but this pride is misplaced.

An objective observer can see why there is an outcry on this particular incident:
The public has had enough of violence against women and no serious action is taken against the perpetrators. So they are expressing their frustration and anger against the authorities.

Ashi
Dec 29th, 2012, 02:13 PM
Judging by that article Ashi posted in this thread (women's perspective), there is a big difference and India has a longer way to go than other countries. I cannot imagine what it must be like to live in constant fear for your safety, when doing day to day things.

But yes, there are men everywhere, in every country, who think it's the woman's fault when she gets raped e.g. that Italian priest recently.
That article was about a woman's perspective from Delhi. I'm lived my whole life in Mumbai and can confidently say I can travel late nights here and use public transport.
I can't comment on other cities because I've not lived anywhere else for an extended period of time.

Ashi
Dec 29th, 2012, 02:17 PM
They say there needs to be non-bailable arrest for rape accused. Many of our MP's and MLA's would be behind bars right now if that was the case.

Start da Game
Dec 29th, 2012, 02:28 PM
can you show me where I said that?

I'm a women. I've never needed a driver, I can take public transport alone, even at night. That's the difference. Of course rapes happen everywhere, but it does seem like the general attitude towards women is different in Delhi. And yes, there are lot a countries where it's equally bad. But you're not going to change the situation if you respond to everything with "yes, but it happens in other countries too". If you want change, you have to admit that something is horribly wrong in the first place.

why should a woman in india need to go out at night alone unless in exceptional circumstances? no indian family encourages it as far as i know......that is the cultural difference i was talking about......

and delhi =/= india.....i did say earlier that something's wrong with delhi and also reasoned why......

what i don't like is people pointing at a nation with 1.2 billion people without knowing much about it......you guys maybe having public transport in every city at night because your population count maybe negligible compared to us and your resources/person might be plentiful.......

pierce85
Dec 29th, 2012, 02:34 PM
Unfortunately , this thing doesn't only happen in India. I have a friend who recently travelled with her boyfriend to Egypt and while they were at the market (bear in mind that she was dressed conservatively) a group of 10 men circled her and started groping and tried to rape her, if it wasn't for a local shop-keeper who offered her refuge who knows what would have happened.

Ashi
Dec 29th, 2012, 02:35 PM
I dedicate this song to 'Damini' (what a name to choose, the film still leaves me hollow), 'Amanat', 'Nirbhaya' as the Indian media seems to be calling her.
ZUjBxPvdUEs
RIP.
I wish each child learns this song in school. Maybe it can permeate our subconscious as a growing nation.

gentenaire
Dec 29th, 2012, 02:38 PM
That article was about a woman's perspective from Delhi. I'm lived my whole life in Mumbai and can confidently say I can travel late nights here and use public transport.
I can't comment on other cities because I've not lived anywhere else for an extended period of time.

From what I read, it does seem to be mainly a problem in Delhi and less so in other cities. The chances of being harassed would certainly be higher if I moved to Brussels, compared to where I live now.
My point is, this shouldn't be treated as a 'general' problem, as if it's the same everywhere. It isn't. There are reasons why it happens more often in one place than another and these causes need to be dealt with.

pierce85
Dec 29th, 2012, 02:39 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A_SLNreCcAA3j36.jpg

Woah! Someone hold up a mirror.
These are reactions from our political class.:o:o

courtsey:twitter

Does this disgusting bitch (Annita Shuka or whatever) call herself a scientist?

tennisbum79
Dec 29th, 2012, 02:41 PM
Unfortunately, this thing doesn't happen only in India. I have a friend who recently travelled with her boyfriend in Egypt and while they were at the market (bear in mind that she was dressed conservatively) a group of 10 men circled her and started groping and tried to rape herm, if it wasn't for a local shop-keeper who offered her refuge who knows what would have happened.
I am not susprised.
During the Arab Surpring in Egypt, a mob of Egytian men sexually mosted a female CBS correspondent who was covering the demonstration.

With that said, other countries doing the same should not be an excuse for another raping their women.
I am not suggesting that is what your post is implying, but other posters have already used an argument like this to downplay this incident.
The "every body does it defense" has never been a strong argument.

Ashi
Dec 29th, 2012, 02:42 PM
why should a woman in india need to go out at night alone unless in exceptional circumstances? no indian family encourages it as far as i know......that is the cultural difference i was talking about......
IMO there's no need to be defensive here.

What if there is an emergeny or she has to go to the hospital? What if she doesn't have a brother, father or husband?

tennisbum79
Dec 29th, 2012, 02:49 PM
I dedicate this song to 'Damini' (what a name to choose, the film still leaves me hollow), 'Amanat', 'Nirbhaya' as the Indian media seems to be calling her.
ZUjBxPvdUEs
RIP.
I wish each child learns this song in school. Maybe it can permeate our subconscious as a growing nation.
Not withstanding the meaning, it is a beautiful song.

By the solemn reaction written all over the audience faces, it must be profund and sad.

Can you explain what it is about?
And what does 'Damini' mean. You objected to the name

Ashi
Dec 29th, 2012, 02:58 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damini_%E2%80%93_Lightning

Shekhar Gupta (Rishi Kapoor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rishi_Kapoor)), a rich businessman, falls in love at first sight with Damini (Meenakshi Sheshadri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meenakshi_Sheshadri)). They get married and Damini moves into his palatial bungalow. One day, she witnesses Shekhar's younger brother, Rakesh, molesting the maid-servant and rushes to tell Shekhar. Shekhar rushes over to prevent the sexual assault but is too late. The Gupta family conspire to cover up this shameful incident. But Damini decides to inform the police. The matter is taken up in court, and Damini is asked to testify. Damini is portrayed as a mentally unstable person and confined in a mental institution for two weeks by a judicial order. Unable to bear the mental torture in the institution, she escapes and runs into a down-and-out alcoholic lawyer, Govind (Sunny Deol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunny_Deol)), who has the rape case re-opened. The maid-servant dies in hospital, and the police write her death off as a suicide. But Govind is able to prove otherwise. It is up to Damini, Govind and Shekhar to provide justice to the victimized girl.

*JR*
Dec 29th, 2012, 02:59 PM
A few reactions to some comments ITT:

Mumbai (formerly Bombay) is presumably very Westernized, yet Delhi is the "rape capital" of India. The reference in a cartoon Ashi posted to "dented and painted" is to a comment the (ceremonial) President's son made about the demonstrators. (And the pathetic Home Minister I referred to ITT compared them to Maoists). :fiery:

Women are treated like crap in many countries, quite so in India. For example, if a Hindu woman there marries a man from the "wrong" caste* her own family may murder her in a so-called "honour killing". And girl babies are (or were, if its changed) routinely aborted for no other reason than their gender, though its illegal to use amniocentesis for that.

* The caste system itself was outlawed in I think 1965, though "somebody apparently forgot to tell the public". The Dalits are/were still widely called (and treated as) :mad: Untouchables for decades after that, for example. (If the extreme Hindu BJP opposition trries to use this case politically, I hope the caste system issue is cited to check them).

I can't see a death penalty being handed down here (or being upheld on appeal if it is) as the murder was seemingly not premeditated. I'd be surprised if these guys are convicted of anything more than manslaughter, though they might well be killed in jail.

Given the severity of the victim's injuries, requiring the surgical removal of her intestines :help: I wonder if the iron bar was used not just to beat her (like the guy she was with) but to sexually violate her. Had she lived, she'd likely have been on IV feeding for the rest of her life. :(

Ashi
Dec 29th, 2012, 03:06 PM
Here is the translation:
O ri Chiraiya
Nanhi si chidiya
Angna mein phir aaja re

O bird,
little bird,
come back again to the yard..

Andhiyara hai ghana aur lahoo se sana
Kirno ke tinke ambar se chun ke
Angna mein phir aaja re

The dark is deep and covered in blood..
pick the straws of sunrays from the sky,
and come back again to the yard..

Humne tujhpe hazaro sitam hain kiye
Humne tujhpe jahan bhar ke zulm kiye
Humne socha nahi
Tu jo ud jayegi
Ye zameen tere bin sooni reh jayegi
Kiske dum pe sajega mera angna

We have done injustice against you a thousand times,
We have given you tortures of the world..
we didn't think-
if you fly away,
this earth will remain deserted without you..
with whose presence shall my yard be adorned..

O Ri Chiraiya, Meri Chiraiya
Angna mein phir aaja re

Tere pankho mein saare sitare jadooN
Teri chunar dhanak satrangi bunooN
Tere kajal mein main kaali raina bharooN
Teri mehandi mein main kachchi dhoop malooN
Tere naino sajaa doon naya sapna

I'll embed all the stars in your wings,
I'll weave for you a rainbow colored scarf,
I'll fill the dark night in your kohl,
I'll rub raw fragrance in your henna (adorned hands),
I'll give a new dream to your eyes..

O ri Chiraiya, Meri Chiraiya
Angna mein phir aaja re

tennisbum79
Dec 29th, 2012, 03:07 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damini_%E2%80%93_Lightning

Shekhar Gupta (Rishi Kapoor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rishi_Kapoor)), a rich businessman, falls in love at first sight with Damini (Meenakshi Sheshadri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meenakshi_Sheshadri)). They get married and Damini moves into his palatial bungalow. One day, she witnesses Shekhar's younger brother, Rakesh, molesting the maid-servant and rushes to tell Shekhar. Shekhar rushes over to prevent the sexual assault but is too late. The Gupta family conspire to cover up this shameful incident. But Damini decides to inform the police. The matter is taken up in court, and Damini is asked to testify. Damini is portrayed as a mentally unstable person and confined in a mental institution for two weeks by a judicial order. Unable to bear the mental torture in the institution, she escapes and runs into a down-and-out alcoholic lawyer, Govind (Sunny Deol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunny_Deol)), who has the rape case re-opened. The maid-servant dies in hospital, and the police write her death off as a suicide. But Govind is able to prove otherwise. It is up to Damini, Govind and Shekhar to provide justice to the victimized girl.
Thanks, touching story. Now I understand the audience reaction.
I know this is only a movie, but it also gives a window on how rape has been treated in India.

Again, thanks for sharing it.

gentenaire
Dec 29th, 2012, 03:08 PM
why should a woman in india need to go out at night alone unless in exceptional circumstances? .

For the same reason men go out at night alone.

You've just proven my point, India still has a long way to go as far as women's rights go if that's the general view.

Ashi
Dec 29th, 2012, 03:11 PM
A few reactions to some comments ITT:

Mumbai (formerly Bombay) is presumably very Westernized, yet Delhi is the "rape capital" of India. The reference in a cartoon Ashi posted to "dented and painted" is to a comment the (ceremonial) President's son made about the demonstrators. (And the pathetic Home Minister I referred to ITT compared them to Maoists). :fiery:

Women are treated like crap in many countries, quite so in India. For example, if a Hindu woman there marries a man from the "wrong" caste* her own family may murder her in a so-called "honour killing". And girl babies are (or were, if its changed) routinely aborted for no other reason than their gender, though its illegal to use amniocentesis for that.

* The caste system itself was outlawed in I think 1965, though "somebody apparently forgot to tell the public". The Dalits are/were still widely called (and treated as) :mad: Untouchables for decades after that, for example. (If the extreme Hindu BJP opposition trries to use this case politically, I hope the caste system issue is cited to check them).

I can't see a death penalty being handed down here (or being upheld on appeal if it is) as the murder was seemingly not premeditated. I'd be surprised if these guys are convicted of anything more than manslaughter, though they might well be killed in jail.

Given the severity of the victim's injuries, requiring the surgical removal of her intestines :help: I wonder if the iron bar was used not just to beat her (like the guy she was with) but to sexually violate her. Had she lived, she'd likely have been on IV feeding for the rest of her life. :(
Please don't convolute this thread with Honor Killings, Female Infanticide & Casteism. Those issues are far more complex and need a separate discussion without moving off topic.
The issue here is societal norms, fear psycosis, insensitivity by the police, low conviction rate etc

tennisbum79
Dec 29th, 2012, 03:12 PM
Here is the translation:
O ri Chiraiya
Nanhi si chidiya
Angna mein phir aaja re

O bird,
little bird,
come back again to the yard..

Andhiyara hai ghana aur lahoo se sana
Kirno ke tinke ambar se chun ke
Angna mein phir aaja re

The dark is deep and covered in blood..
pick the straws of sunrays from the sky,
and come back again to the yard..

Humne tujhpe hazaro sitam hain kiye
Humne tujhpe jahan bhar ke zulm kiye
Humne socha nahi
Tu jo ud jayegi
Ye zameen tere bin sooni reh jayegi
Kiske dum pe sajega mera angna

We have done injustice against you a thousand times,
We have given you tortures of the world..
we didn't think-
if you fly away,
this earth will remain deserted without you..
with whose presence shall my yard be adorned..

O Ri Chiraiya, Meri Chiraiya
Angna mein phir aaja re

Tere pankho mein saare sitare jadooN
Teri chunar dhanak satrangi bunooN
Tere kajal mein main kaali raina bharooN
Teri mehandi mein main kachchi dhoop malooN
Tere naino sajaa doon naya sapna

I'll embed all the stars in your wings,
I'll weave for you a rainbow colored scarf,
I'll fill the dark night in your kohl,
I'll rub raw fragrance in your henna (adorned hands),
I'll give a new dream to your eyes..

O ri Chiraiya, Meri Chiraiya
Angna mein phir aaja re

A theme/sense of collective guilt runs through the lyrics.

Start da Game
Dec 29th, 2012, 03:37 PM
For the same reason men go out at night alone.

You've just proven my point, India still has a long way to go as far as women's rights go if that's the general view.

your point never existed in the first place......what seems to be "rights" to you is not a cultural fit here......

Start da Game
Dec 29th, 2012, 03:42 PM
IMO there's no need to be defensive here.

What if there is an emergeny or she has to go to the hospital? What if she doesn't have a brother, father or husband?

i din't want to be defensive but some people make me defensive with their outlandish claims knowing nothing about the country......

tennisbum79
Dec 29th, 2012, 03:46 PM
your point never existed in the first place......what seems to be "rights" to you is not a cultural fit here......
Is this the same argument, the "cultural " argument, you used in the burning of a child by Indian parents in Norway?

BTW, there are report that Mr Vallabhaneni, the father had "threatened" to send the child to India for wetting his pants in the school bus.
Which is kind of revealing because it suggests he sees India as way to punish the child.

Start da Game
Dec 29th, 2012, 03:52 PM
Is this the same argument, the "cultural " argument, you used in the burning of a child by Indian parents in Norway?

BTW, there are report that Mr Vallabhaneni, the father had "threatened" to send the child to India for wetting his pants in the school bus.
Which is kind of revealing because it suggests he sees India as way to punish the child.

just stay quiet when you know jackshit......

tennisbum79
Dec 29th, 2012, 03:57 PM
just stay quiet when you know jackshit......
You are evading the question. But that is OK. You took enough beating in that thread.

Start da Game
Dec 29th, 2012, 04:01 PM
You are evading the question. But that is OK. You took enough beating in that thread.

no, your post din't even deserve a good response firstly because you confuse cultures with odd incidents......secondly because it was an obvious attempt at shit stirring.......

tennisbum79
Dec 29th, 2012, 04:18 PM
no, your post din't even deserve a good response firstly because you confuse cultures with odd incidents......secondly because it was an obvious attempt at shit stirring.......
As I said, you took enough beating already.
Here are few of your posts in that thread.
Clearly, you seem to be attemting to justify/excuse the incident as cultural difference overreaction on the part of non-Indians
. Even some Indian posters distanced themselves from your comments
http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=22547990&postcount=8

http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=22548012&postcount=9
http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=22548290&postcount=15

Wigglytuff
Dec 29th, 2012, 04:21 PM
It must have been brutal and violent for the woman to die.

THis is why, in the USA, rape is increasingly referred to as an act of physical and psychological violence.; not just sexual violation.

Rape is always brutal and violent. And yes more and more people are realizing that rape is a crime of mental and physical power not ever about sex.

That poor woman. Gang raped by a group of monsters for an hour. And then thrown from the moving bus.

Poor woman.

I hope they go to jail for life, for they took her life and they should never be allowed around civilized society again.

Milito22
Dec 29th, 2012, 04:28 PM
RIP :sad:

Wigglytuff
Dec 29th, 2012, 04:28 PM
typical kneejerk reaction that doesn't help anyone, certainly not the women that get abused, raped and killed every day.

i must admit i'm always very wary when - almost out of the blue - a story that gets repeated probably every week becomes worldwide news. people who usually don't give a fuck act all enraged and shocked.

but i do hope this changes a certain attitude in indian society.

Wrong again bob.

Strong penalties for crimes against women DO IN FACT help women and society as whole. Most criminals who brutalize women in this way reoffend. And nothing but jail or death stops them.

Wigglytuff
Dec 29th, 2012, 04:35 PM
laughing at people bullshitting about india having a long way to go......what about the mass rapes in london on english women? women are not safe in many countries......

just because the entire india roared on this, it doesn't mean rapes are happening only in india......

What the fuck is wrong with you people.

This is not a contest! Wrong is wrong. Violence against women on this scale is a global problem. And people going on about where it's worse really don't help.

Trying to sweep it under the rug to make it look like one country is less bad than another. Whenever shit like this happens there should be outrage. There should be some sort of pressure to make sure that there is stiff punishment and steps taken to prevent it from happening again.

Start da Game
Dec 29th, 2012, 05:05 PM
As I said, you took enough beating already.
Here are few of your posts in that thread.
Clearly, you seem to be attemting to justify/excuse the incident as cultural difference overreaction on the part of non-Indians
. Even some Indian posters distanced themselves from your comments
http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=22547990&postcount=8

http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=22548012&postcount=9
http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=22548290&postcount=15

wrong again......indian posters differed because they din't read my post carefully and probably also din't want to lose their long time friends here......just took a safer route......

your attempt at exhibiting fake concern for india when nobody invited you to do so is getting hilarious with every post......

Start da Game
Dec 29th, 2012, 05:08 PM
What the fuck is wrong with you people.

This is not a contest! Wrong is wrong. Violence against women on this scale is a global problem. And people going on about where it's worse really don't help.

that's what i am stressing upon as well......people need to stop sounding as if india is the only nation where rapes are happening......

Trying to sweep it under the rug to make it look like one country is less bad than another. Whenever shit like this happens there should be outrage. There should be some sort of pressure to make sure that there is stiff punishment and steps taken to prevent it from happening again.

exactly what indian people are doing at the moment......all i am saying is that there is no need to colour the whole episode as if only india is suffering and the rest of the world is alright......



....

gentenaire
Dec 29th, 2012, 05:10 PM
your point never existed in the first place......what seems to be "rights" to you is not a cultural fit here......

It seems it's this cultural fit that all those women are protesting against. You seem to fit the old school view that a decent women doesn't leave the house at night. So when a woman does go out, she's considered loose and men are given free range to call her a whore. It's the same argument as saying that women wearing revealing clothes are asking to be raped.

From the articles Ashi posted and articles and viewpoints I read elsewhere, I see women who're protesting to claim their place in society, in the city, women who're determined to no longer be afraid, who're sick of fear taking over their lives, who're sick of fear preventing them from going where they want to go. The mentality that apparently good girls don't go out, good girls are never alone, that's a mentality that must change. It's not because a woman decides to take dance lessons, that's she's a whore. It's not because a woman decides to go to a movie theatre in the evening, that she's a whore.

Your post sounded so much like the comment in the newspaper, laying the blame with the woman instead of the perpetrators. It's that archaic view that has to change. It's that view that exists in some cultures but not in others. It's that view that means India has a longer way to go than some other countries, because there are cultural differences.

tennisbum79
Dec 29th, 2012, 05:15 PM
wrong again......indian posters differed because they din't read my post carefully and probably also din't want to lose their long time friends here......just took a safer route......

your attempt at exhibiting fake concern for india when nobody invited you to do so is getting hilarious with every post......
I don't need invitation, this is not an Indian forum.
Look, the reactions to your post by other posters says it all.
And this is not the first time you have been in this position

BTW, you can't possibly question other Indian disagreements with you by assigning them ulterior motives

Start da Game
Dec 29th, 2012, 05:27 PM
It seems it's this cultural fit that all those women are protesting against. You seem to fit the old school view that a decent women doesn't leave the house at night. So when a woman does go out, she's considered loose and men are given free range to call her a whore. It's the same argument as saying that women wearing revealing clothes are asking to be raped.

From the articles Ashi posted and articles and viewpoints I read elsewhere, I see women who're protesting to claim their place in society, in the city, women who're determined to no longer be afraid, who're sick of fear taking over their lives, who're sick of fear preventing them from going where they want to go. The mentality that apparently good girls don't go out, good girls are never alone, that's a mentality that must change. It's not because a woman decides to take dance lessons, that's she's a whore. It's not because a woman decides to go to a movie theatre in the evening, that she's a whore.

Your post sounded so much like the comment in the newspaper, laying the blame with the woman instead of the perpetrators. It's that archaic view that has to change. It's that view that exists in some cultures but not in others. It's that view that means India has a longer way to go than some other countries, because there are cultural differences.

no, not even 0.1% women are protesting this......delhi =/= india......i don't even think they are protesting the cultural aspects......they are just calling for superior security......so next......

i am not blaming anybody but the morons who committed the crime......i am just calling for preventive measures from all sides......and please for the last time, we are in no position to decide whether india needs to move forwards or backwards......

wild.river
Dec 29th, 2012, 05:34 PM
typical kneejerk reaction that doesn't help anyone, certainly not the women that get abused, raped and killed every day.

i must admit i'm always very wary when - almost out of the blue - a story that gets repeated probably every week becomes worldwide news. people who usually don't give a fuck act all enraged and shocked.

but i do hope this changes a certain attitude in indian society.

they killed a woman in the worst way possible. not sure what happened to her male companion. if this doesn't merit the death penalty, then what does? do you think showing these monsters leniency helps abused women?

fyi- i also posted my heartbreak about the 11 young afghan girls who were killed by the taliban when they were going about their daily lives. a story barely repeated. so spare me your judgement on what i give a fuck about.

Start da Game
Dec 29th, 2012, 05:46 PM
they killed a woman in the worst way possible. not sure what happened to her male companion. if this doesn't merit the death penalty, then what does? do you think showing these monsters leniency helps abused women?

fyi- i also posted my heartbreak about the 11 young afghan girls who were killed by the taliban when they were going about their daily lives. a story barely repeated. so spare me your judgement on what i give a fuck about.

agreed and they are going to get the death penalty......anything less is not going to be accepted by the public anyway......

also we have to note that it is not just a rape case now but also murder charges now as the girl is dead......so there is no escape now from death......

Ashi
Dec 29th, 2012, 06:16 PM
The prosecution have murder, rape, robbery and assault charges on the deceased and her male friend respectively.

The brutality of this case can be classified as a rarest of rare case and hence death penalty can be sought.

They accused can re appeal for a lighter sentence in the supreme court if convicted. Are they also eligible for presidential pardon?

The Government will save face and not let this happen.

Hopefully the wheels of justice will run faster for this victim.

Is it only me who is outraged that Ram Jethmalani is expressing solidarity in the media. The levels of hypocrisy in this country.:fiery: He can defend a man who shot a woman in cold blood yet express sorrow at the death of this girl. It's like showing the middle finger to civilised society.

Bijoux0021
Dec 29th, 2012, 07:07 PM
They should hang those rapists/monsters by their testicles. :fiery:

hablo
Dec 29th, 2012, 07:22 PM
It seems it's this cultural fit that all those women are protesting against. You seem to fit the old school view that a decent women doesn't leave the house at night. So when a woman does go out, she's considered loose and men are given free range to call her a whore. It's the same argument as saying that women wearing revealing clothes are asking to be raped.

From the articles Ashi posted and articles and viewpoints I read elsewhere, I see women who're protesting to claim their place in society, in the city, women who're determined to no longer be afraid, who're sick of fear taking over their lives, who're sick of fear preventing them from going where they want to go. The mentality that apparently good girls don't go out, good girls are never alone, that's a mentality that must change. It's not because a woman decides to take dance lessons, that's she's a whore. It's not because a woman decides to go to a movie theatre in the evening, that she's a whore.

Your post sounded so much like the comment in the newspaper, laying the blame with the woman instead of the perpetrators. It's that archaic view that has to change. It's that view that exists in some cultures but not in others. It's that view that means India has a longer way to go than some other countries, because there are cultural differences.
:yeah:

*JR*
Dec 29th, 2012, 07:39 PM
I don't need invitation, this is not an Indian forum....

Join the club. When I posted this past fall in another thread that the Indian subcontinent would be better off had the 1947 partition never occured, "an Indian poster who shall not be named here" :tape: said that I shouldn't express an opinion on that, as I'm not from the region. (Said poster may be away, and hasn't posted ITT so far).

tennisbum79
Dec 29th, 2012, 07:52 PM
Join the club. When I posted this past fall in another thread that the Indian subcontinent would be better off had the 1947 partition never occured, "an Indian poster who shall not be named here" :tape: said that I shouldn't express an opinion on that, as I'm not from the region. (Said poster may be away, and hasn't posted ITT so far).
Not to brag, but I never see this when the topic is about US.
The shootings, the elections, Tea Party, etc...

American posters rarely attempt to disqualify or undermine a participant in a discussion because s/he is not from the USA.
We may disagree, but never question their motivation as long as the poster lay out a reasonable argument.

Ashi
Dec 29th, 2012, 07:55 PM
Join the club. When I posted this past fall in another thread that the Indian subcontinent would be better off had the 1947 partition never occured, "an Indian poster who shall not be named here" :tape: said that I shouldn't express an opinion on that, as I'm not from the region. (Said poster may be away, and hasn't posted ITT so far).
:lol: You are spinning this. You said re-integration was possible & beneficial without giving a sound reasoning for it in today's scenario. IMO such a blanket statement is beyond ludricous.
You need to do your homework before making a statement like that. Guess where the most rape and pillage happened? During partition. Yet, you say so nonchalantly that India & Pakistan can be reintegrated?

dybbuk
Dec 29th, 2012, 08:02 PM
Not to brag, but I never see this when the topic is about US.
The shootings, the elections, Tea Party, etc...

American posters rarely attempt to disqualify or undermine a participant in a discussion because s/he is not from the USA.
We may disagree, but never question their motivation as long as the poster lay out a reasonable argument.

Nope. Williamser does. In the gun thread he was shutting down foreign posters with bizarre, childish "America! Fuck yeah!" arguments and saying their countries suck in comparison.

And Start da game, are you a woman? Because you're saying India doesn't need to have serious self-examination contradicts basically everything I've seen from Indian females since this occurred. They are all uniformly pointing towards a system of patriarchy that oppresses women in India.

Ashi
Dec 29th, 2012, 08:07 PM
Nope. Williamser does. In the gun thread he was shutting down foreign posters with bizarre, childish "America! Fuck yeah!" arguments and saying their countries suck in comparison.
:yeah:

tennisbum79
Dec 29th, 2012, 08:11 PM
Nope. Williamser does. In the gun thread he was shutting down foreign posters with bizarre, childish "America! Fuck yeah!" arguments and saying their countries suck in comparison.
True.
However, plenty of Americans, including myself, have taken issue with Williamser.
Williamser has also earned a reputation as unreasonable poster, no matter the topic.
He is known to routinely insult and taunt people he disagree with, Americans or non-Americans; but non-Americans in particular.

So, although you are correct, he does not represent your typical American poster.

Ashi
Dec 29th, 2012, 08:23 PM
tennisbum79
You take an usual interest about India? Have you visited our country/travelled/lived here?
I've seen countless threads in Non-Tennis but hardly any positive threads. Hence, I get the defensiveness of Indian posters(who are very few), but I've learnt to meet people halfway.

tennisbum79
Dec 29th, 2012, 08:25 PM
And Start da game, are you a woman? Because you're saying India doesn't need to have serious self-examination contradicts basically everything I've seen from Indian females since this occurred. They are all uniformly pointing towards a system of patriarchy that oppresses women in India.
Start da game is probably not a woman.

He explains everything away via cultural differences.
He did this in the incident of the Indian-Norwegian couple accused of burning/beating their child.
Now he is doing it here as well.
When pushed, he claim he is misunderstood and/or the person challenging him does not understand Indian culture.

*JR*
Dec 29th, 2012, 08:42 PM
:lol: You are spinning this. You said re-integration was possible & beneficial without giving a sound reasoning for it in today's scenario. IMO such a blanket statement is beyond ludricous.
You need to do your homework before making a statement like that. Guess where the most rape and pillage happened? During partition. Yet, you say so nonchalantly that India & Pakistan can be reintegrated?

The NDTV debate (http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-big-fight/an-undivided-india/100356) gives all sides, if anyone wants to watch it. I raised it ITT to give another example of what tennisbum said; that issues elsewhere are fair game for Americans, just like crap that happens here is 4U "fur-ners". (And of course to take a whack @ that unnamed poster). :tape:

More relevant to this thread, Vikram did a one hour special 8 days ago about the effect this gang rape may have on the laws there: http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-big-fight/rape-and-punishment-time-for-tougher-laws/259179?vod-related

tennisbum79
Dec 29th, 2012, 08:43 PM
tennisbum79
You take an usual interest about India? Have you visited our country/travelled/lived here?
I've seen countless threads in Non-Tennis but hardly any positive threads. Hence, I get the defensiveness of Indian posters(who are very few), but I've learnt to meet people halfway.
No. But by via my work, I have been working with lot of Indians, males and females.
Some from Mombay, but most from Bangalore.

I don't think I created the thread you characterize as hardly any positive. In fact, I did not create this one.
I must say, if you got to youtube, you will see the same type position that Start Da game is taking in this thread.
Some are blaming Hindus.
However to be fair, some Indians are pushing back, arguing Indians are in denial and they had enough.

By my nature, I abhor injustice and unfairness. No matter where it comes from.
Couple of years back, there was mistreatment of Indians in Australia just because they were Indians.
In the forum, I was aguing on the Indian side.

And no, with the Indians I have interacted with at work, I have not seen any interaction that would suggest anything but respect and equality between the genders

Ashi
Dec 29th, 2012, 08:52 PM
No. But by via my work, I have been working with lot of Indians, males and females.
Some from Mombay, but most from Bangalore.

I don't think I created the thread you characterize as hardly any positive. In fact, I did not create this one.
I must say, if you got to youtube, you will see the same type position that Start Da game is taking in this thread.
Some are blaming Hindus.
However to be fair, some Indians are pushing back, arguing Indians are in denial and they had enough.

By my nature, I abhor injustice and unfairness. No matter where it comes from.
Couple of years back, there was mistreatment of Indians in Australia just because they were Indians.
In the forum, I was aguing on the Indian side.

And no, with the Indians I have interacted with at work, I have not seen any interaction that would suggest anything but respect and equality between the genders
:confused:

tennisbum79
Dec 29th, 2012, 08:55 PM
:confused:
Well, that is what I read.

What did I miss?

Ashi
Dec 29th, 2012, 08:59 PM
In what context? I don't think the media has made public the names of the 6 accused, who they are,let alone which religion they practice. Which is besides the point anyway.

tennisbum79
Dec 29th, 2012, 09:01 PM
In what context? I don't think the media has made public the names of the 6 accused, who they are,let alone which religion they practice. Which is besides the point anyway.
This must have been earlier when the new broke, when the information was still murky and not forth coming.
This happens in high profile investigation like. We have misinformation in the Newtown shooting early on.
First, the name of the older brother of the shooter was published.
He was immediately attacked on facebook where he also has an account. For his own safety, he surrendered to the police and was released when thing were clarified.

I understand your point about religion being irrelevent, but there were tensions in the disussion thread I was reading.
And with temper flaring and absense of reliable information , people can post rumors to score easy points.

Beat
Dec 29th, 2012, 09:40 PM
fyi- i also posted my heartbreak about the 11 young afghan girls who were killed by the taliban when they were going about their daily lives. a story barely repeated. so spare me your judgement on what i give a fuck about.

the 2nd paragraph of that post of mine wasn't directed at you, it was about my bewilderment at how the media pick up certain stories, while totally ignoring other, similar ones. i don't understand the mechanisms behind it.

mykarma
Dec 29th, 2012, 09:57 PM
Respect to the Indian people for taking to the streets. Far too often rape is ignored and swept under the rug, or even tolerated and accepted by society.
The demonstrators was initially dogged and called names by others including government officials but they refused to give up. I read that another rape victim committed suicide because of police interrogation and the way she was treated. It's really difficult to understand that in this day and time rape victims are treated with such disdain. :sad:

mykarma
Dec 29th, 2012, 10:02 PM
It must have been brutal and violent for the woman to die.

THis is why, in the USA, rape is increasingly referred to as an act of physical and psychological violence.; not just sexual violation.
They used a pipe to sodomize her and messed up her internal organs.

hablo
Dec 29th, 2012, 10:24 PM
The demonstrators was initially dogged and called names by others including government officials but they refused to give up. I read that another rape victim committed suicide because of police interrogation and the way she was treated. It's really difficult to understand that in this day and time rape victims are treated with such disdain. :sad:

I read that the police was trying to get her to marry one of her rapists. :help:

mykarma
Dec 29th, 2012, 10:32 PM
IMO there's no need to be defensive here.

What if there is an emergeny or she has to go to the hospital? What if she doesn't have a brother, father or husband?
Wasn't this woman with a man and he was also beat?

mykarma
Dec 29th, 2012, 10:43 PM
no, not even 0.1% women are protesting this......delhi =/= india......i don't even think they are protesting the cultural aspects......they are just calling for superior security......so next......

i am not blaming anybody but the morons who committed the crime......i am just calling for preventive measures from all sides......and please for the last time, we are in no position to decide whether india needs to move forwards or backwards......
:cuckoo:

mykarma
Dec 29th, 2012, 10:51 PM
True.
However, plenty of Americans, including myself, have taken issue with Williamser.
Williamser has also earned a reputation as unreasonable poster, no matter the topic.
He is known to routinely insult and taunt people he disagree with, Americans or non-Americans; but non-Americans in particular.

So, although you are correct, he does not represent your typical American poster.
Williamsser has disdain for anyone that's not white and Muslims are at the top of his list.

tennisbum79
Dec 29th, 2012, 10:52 PM
The demonstrators was initially dogged and called names by others including government officials but they refused to give up. I read that another rape victim committed suicide because of police interrogation and the way she was treated. It's really difficult to understand that in this day and time rape victims are treated with such disdain. :sad:
That is right.
They are still in that phase where we, here in the US, we use to blame the victims for bringing it upon themselvse by the way they carry themselves or dress.

I did some google search on this to put this incident in proper perpsective and understand why the outcry on this case.

It turns out it is an endemic problem, those who are supposed to protect the women are usually the perpetractors: police and government officials.
There is quiet a few cases of under age girls raped by policemen and politicians and it get swept under the rug.

One of the dirtubing thing is that a number of these incidents happen in public.
Still on youtube threads, Indians posters are torn between national pride/humiliation/embarrasment and admiting that this is wrong in such an open forum frequeneted by the entire world. There is also regional accusasions back and forth between North ans South Indians

It will take an attitude change in the entire society , before it gets better.
Women groups alone cannot win this fight

This is like African-Americans people puting their trust in Southern states goverment officials and politicians for protection back in 50's and 60's.

JN
Dec 29th, 2012, 11:26 PM
Unfuckingbelievable... so senseless. RIP young lady.


Williamsser has disdain for anyone that's not white and Muslims are at the top of his list.

I would've thought Blacks were at the top, but then I haven't had the misfortune of reading his crap for as long as you have. :hug:

wild.river
Dec 29th, 2012, 11:57 PM
the 2nd paragraph of that post of mine wasn't directed at you, it was about my bewilderment at how the media pick up certain stories, while totally ignoring other, similar ones. i don't understand the mechanisms behind it.

ah, apologies.

my guess is that this incident is particularly heinous compared to other rapes in new delhi. and acts as the "straw that broke the camel's back" for the public.

Ashi
Dec 30th, 2012, 03:41 AM
Wasn't this woman with a man and he was also beat?
Yes he was. It is routine for the male companion/father/brother/husband/boyfriend to be beaten and left for dead too.
If to say I am in danger why would a stranger help me if that is going to be his fate let alone my own flesh and blood.
This happened a year ago and seems like justice is not going to be done soon enough.
Reuben and Keenan murder: First witness to depose in court today

Updated: December 27, 2012

http://www.ndtv.com/news/images/keenan-reuben-295.jpg
File photo

Mumbai (http://www.ndtv.com/article/list/cities/1/mumbai): Over a year after two youngsters were allegedly killed by eve-teasers in Andheri while trying to protect their female friends, the first witness in the Reuben and Keenan murder case will depose in a court on Wednesday.

Avinash Solanki, who is the complainant and also an eye-witness in the case, will depose in the court.

The sessions court on October 23 had framed charges against four accused who have been arrested.

Prosecution said that Keenan Santos (24) and Reuben Fernandez (29) were stabbed after a scuffle near a paan shop in suburban Andheri on October 20 last year. Police later arrested Jitendra Rana, Sunil Bodh, Satish Dulhaj and Dipak Tival for the murder.

According to police, the duo were attacked outside an eatery when they tried to protect their female friends from the group of eve-teasers who after retreating initially came back at the spot with over 10 aides and brutally assaulted Keenan and Reuben in full public view.

The case was transferred to the Sewri fast track court in March following a huge public outcry.

PhilePhile
Dec 30th, 2012, 06:56 AM
Eve teasing is a euphemism used in India and sometimes Pakistan and Bangladesh[1] for public sexual harassment or molestation of women by men, with use of the word "Eve" being a reference to the biblical Eve, the first woman.[2] It implies that the woman is in some way responsible for the behaviour of the perpetrators of this act. Considered a problem related to delinquency in youth,[3] it is a form of sexual aggression that ranges in severity from sexually suggestive remarks, brushing in public places and catcalls to outright groping.[4][5][6] Sometimes it is referred to with a coy suggestion of innocent fun, making it appear innocuous with no resulting liability on the part of the perpetrator.[7] Some voluntary organisations have suggested that the expression be replaced by a more appropriate term.[8] According to them, considering the semantic roots of the term in Indian English, Eve teasing refers to the temptress nature of Eve, placing responsibility on the woman as a tease.[9]

Sexual harassment by strangers, as with any type of harassment, has been a notoriously difficult crime to prove, as perpetrators often devise ingenious ways to harass women, even though eve teasing usually occurs in public places, streets, and public transport.[10] Some feminist writers claim that this behaviour is a kind of "little rape".[11] Some guidebooks to the region warn female tourists to avoid attracting the attention of these kinds of men by wearing conservative clothing.[12][13] However, this harassment is reported both by Indian women and by conservatively dressed foreign women.[14]

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve_teasing

Lin Lin
Dec 30th, 2012, 07:49 AM
This is really sad,maybe a private gun for the girl could help at that time,,so ban guns or not?Really hard to day.:awww:

MaBaker
Dec 30th, 2012, 08:58 AM
Poor girl.. just unthinkable..

This is really sad,maybe a private gun for the girl could help at that time,,so ban guns or not?Really hard to day.:awww:
Not really hard to say. Rape is a problem in every single country, including in those that don't have guns ban. Public castration with an axe would be something I would vote for. It would make a lot of potential rapist think twice before doing such thing.

Lin Lin
Dec 30th, 2012, 10:42 AM
Indian gang-rape victim cremated in private ceremony
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific/view/1245146/1/.html

njnetswill
Dec 30th, 2012, 10:51 AM
This is really sad,maybe a private gun for the girl could help at that time,,so ban guns or not?Really hard to day.:awww:

It's just as possible that the attackers take the gun away from the girl and use it against her and her friend. Not everyone is trained to use a gun against a small group of violent, aggressive men.

gentenaire
Dec 30th, 2012, 01:07 PM
This is really sad,maybe a private gun for the girl could help at that time,,so ban guns or not?Really hard to day.:awww:

not hard to say at all. If the girl has access to guns, so do the attackers.

*JR*
Dec 30th, 2012, 02:25 PM
Now that the funeral has occurred, I've edited the title to reflect the focus shift to come; as how to prevent further mass murders in the US followed the Newtown school shootings.



agreed and they are going to get the death penalty......anything less is not going to be accepted by the public anyway......

also we have to note that it is not just a rape case now but also murder charges now as the girl is dead......so there is no escape now from death......

==============================

......and please for the last time, we are in no position to decide whether india needs to move forwards or backwards......

Regarding the punishment, I doubt that a death penalty would occur in the absence of pre-meditated intent to kill; and wouldn't change much, as they'll likely be killed in jail, like lets say (cannibalistic killer) Jeffrey Dahmer was in the US. Things like public castration may be satisfying to call for, but they don't happen in modern legal systems.

Regarding India's need to move forward, the following demonstrate a pattern of "female degradation" that seems 2B part of a pattern:

Sex-selection abortions of future girls, and even infanticide of female babies

"Bride burnings", where a dowry was felt insufficient

"Honour killings" :rolleyes: (of brides, but I don't think grooms) for caste reasons

I presume Ashi can add context to my admittedly far-removed information. The "real outcome" is not candlelight marches, or expressions of sympathy (by ppl like a state First Minister who should have loudly demanded action long ago; by a union Home Minister who got his job the day after the massive blackout in July when he was Power Minister :help: or by the out-of-touch Prime Minister who promoted him then).

Its what happens starting this week in the state and (union, meaning Federal) parliaments. Maybe the governments of both should even resign, with new elections called. Maybe a new political alignment is needed, as happened after the short dictatorship PM Indira Gandhi imposed in the mid-70s.

Maybe a huge # of police decoys need 2B deployed, making would-be rapists wonder who a young woman really is. (Also "counter decoys" to bust corrupt cops). And certainly every unresolved case of bride-burning, other "honour" killing, infanticide, and sex-selection abortion (where there's a pattern with a given clinic) should be investigated, with many prosecuted.

Start da Game
Dec 30th, 2012, 02:28 PM
^^way to blow things out of proportion......you are still living in 1920s......

seriously what the fuck is this nonsense? i am laughing my arse off......look at yourself and your countries first you fools before pointing fingers at india......get ready for indian and chinese visas by 2020......

tennisbum79
Dec 30th, 2012, 02:53 PM
Eve teasing is a euphemism used in India and sometimes Pakistan and Bangladesh[1] for public sexual harassment or molestation of women by men, with use of the word "Eve" being a reference to the biblical Eve, the first woman.[2] It implies that the woman is in some way responsible for the behaviour of the perpetrators of this act. Considered a problem related to delinquency in youth,[3] it is a form of sexual aggression that ranges in severity from sexually suggestive remarks, brushing in public places and catcalls to outright groping.[4][5][6] Sometimes it is referred to with a coy suggestion of innocent fun, making it appear innocuous with no resulting liability on the part of the perpetrator.[7] Some voluntary organisations have suggested that the expression be replaced by a more appropriate term.[8] According to them, considering the semantic roots of the term in Indian English, Eve teasing refers to the temptress nature of Eve, placing responsibility on the woman as a tease.[9]

Sexual harassment by strangers, as with any type of harassment, has been a notoriously difficult crime to prove, as perpetrators often devise ingenious ways to harass women, even though eve teasing usually occurs in public places, streets, and public transport.[10] Some feminist writers claim that this behaviour is a kind of "little rape".[11] Some guidebooks to the region warn female tourists to avoid attracting the attention of these kinds of men by wearing conservative clothing.[12][13] However, this harassment is reported both by Indian women and by conservatively dressed foreign women.[14]

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve_teasing
Just going out on the limb here, expanding on your point as way of explaining this behavior

Does the fact that all marriages are arranged is a contrubuting factor Indians young men lacking the skills to court girls/women?

Although arranged marriages is at the center of Indian family stability compared to the west, its unintended consequences is that it has robbed young men the necessary social skills to negotiate romantic relationship with a girl.

Knowing they'll get list of probable suitable females for marriage from parents, there is no incentive to develop their own skill to
develop 1-on-1 relationship with a woman.

OTH, if they act in pack, no skill is needed as they use intimidation and force, something men have an advantage over women.

With that said, it does not explain the fact politicians and policemen, members of institutions charged to protect women, also sucumb to the crime of raping not only women, but also under age girls, and try to cover it up.

Start da Game
Dec 30th, 2012, 03:02 PM
Just going out on the limb here, expanding on your point as way of explaining this behavior

Does the fact that all marriages are arranged is a contrubuting factor Indians young men lacking the skills to court girls/women?

Although arranged marriages is at the center of Indian family stability compared to the west, its unintended consequences is that it has robbed young men the necessary social skills to negotiate romantic relatiohsip with a girl.

Knowing they'll get list of probable suitable females for marriage from parents, there is no incentive to develop their own skill to
develop 1-on-1 relationship with a woman.

OTH, if they act in pack, no skill is needed asn they use intimidation and force, something men have an advantage over women.

With that said, it does not explain the fact politicians and policemen, members of institutions charged to protect women, also sucumb to the crime of raping not only women, but also under age girls, and try to cover it up.

one in four USA (http://www.oneinfourusa.org/statistics.php)

wish you a happy reading.....

Start da Game
Dec 30th, 2012, 03:06 PM
Rape Statistics
Sexual assault…it’s not about lust and desire, it’s a violent crime of POWER, CONTROL and DOMINANCE

Every 45 seconds someone in the United States is sexually assaulted (1).
1 out of every 7 women currently in college has been raped (2), however, 9 out of 10 women raped on campus never tell anyone about the rape (3).
1 in 10 men is raped in his lifetime (4), 1 in 7 of those victims will have been assaulted before the age of 18.
More than 61.5% of rapes are never reported to law enforcement (5).
Approximately 28% of rape victims are raped by their husbands, 35% by an acquaintance, and 17% by a relative other than spouse (6).
74% of sexual assaults are perpetrated by assailants well known to the victim (7).
A female child victim is 7 times more likely to be re-victimized as an adult (8).
Nearly 6 out of 10 sexual assaults occur at the victim’s home or the home of a friend, relative, or neighbor (9).
1 in 15 rape victims contract a sexually transmitted disease (STD) as a result of being raped (10).
1 in 15 rape victims become pregnant as a result of being raped (11).
The United States has the world’s highest rape rate of all countries that publish such data- 13 times higher than England and more than 20 times higher than Japan (12).
An American woman is 10 times more likely to be raped than to die in a car crash (13).
61% of rape victims are females under the age of 18 (14).
Contrary to common belief that violent crime rates are notably lower in rural areas, a recent analysis of location data collected for the 1999 National Women’s Study found that 10.1% of women living in rural areas had experienced a completed rape as compared to 13.6% of women living in urban and suburban communities—hardly a notably lower rate.

Lewis, S. 2003. Unspoken Crimes: Sexual Assault in Rural America, Enola, PA: National Sexual Violence Resource Center

References:

U.S. Department of Justice, 1994
Statistics on Sexual Violence Against Women, 1990; Woodruff & Koss
Rape Treatment Center of Santa Monica Longitudinal Study, 1995
Indiana Coalition Against Domestic Violence, 2002 & The American Medical Association, 2000
Indiana Coalition Against Sexual Assault, 2002
U.S. Department of Justice, 1994
U.S. Department of Justice, 1994
Indiana Coalition Against Sexual Assault, 2002
National Crime Victimization Survey, 1996
Statistics on Sexual Violence Against Women: A Criminological Study, 1990
Ibid. #10 Senate Judiciary Committee, 1990
Ibid. #12 American Medical Association, 2000

Start da Game
Dec 30th, 2012, 03:07 PM
tell me if that's enough or i will post more......

tennisbum79
Dec 30th, 2012, 03:27 PM
tell me if that's enough or i will post more......
You can keep pointing finger at others all you want, but that will not change a thing.
You started on how India and China will economically take over US , now you are on rape stats in the US.

There are many more comparative stats left; try FBI, CIA, EPA, etc.... so you can keep posting.
You have a long way to go, and after you are done, the gang rape issue will still be there, women still vulnerable to rape.

Good luck with the stats, you have lot of work ahead

Start da Game
Dec 30th, 2012, 03:44 PM
You can keep pointing finger at others all you want, but that will not change a thing.
You started on how India and China will economically take over US , now you are on rape stats in the US.

There are many more comparative stats left; try FBI, CIA, EPA, etc.... so you can keep posting.
You have a long way to go, and after you are done, the gang rape issue will still be there, women still vulnerable to rape.

Good luck with the stats.

then don't dish it out when you can't take it.......what exactly different are you doing other than pointing fingers at others? it looks like you get sadistic pleasure by criticizing india and trying to show india in poor light......

i really pity you if that is the case because i understand how messed up your country has been......just for your information, we don't take advises from people who can't even stand on their own anymore.......

i posted those rape stats just to show how ignorant some of you are sounding with every single post......all those stats of US are out of a mere population of 315 million people.......and we are speaking of a country with 1.2 billion......i will just leave it to your dignity to decide whether to take another shameless shot at india or respectfully end the nonsense......

Olórin
Dec 30th, 2012, 03:46 PM
Non-Americans passed judgement on Americans after the Connecticut tragedy, so non-Indians should pass judgement on India after this tragedy.

The reason many people dealt out "judgement" is because most non-Americans come from countries where a far smaller proportion of the population thinks its their "moral and legal right" to take completely unnecessary lethal weapons into public places, schools, places of work than in the USA. The regressive psyche of many NRA-ites in positions of power in the USA is hard to fathom for many outside of USA society.

Non-Indians are free to pass "judgement" on this, but the reality in their own countries is perhaps little better. It is widely acknowledged across the board that we are still "learning" about the crime of rape, how many different forms of rape take place, male-rape etc. how we should be responding to it as a society and meeting the needs of the victims. Don't try to confuse the issues, you pervert of logic.

Ashi
Dec 30th, 2012, 04:31 PM
Sex-selection abortions of future girls, and even infanticide of female babies
Reason: Dowry which is illegal. You cannot account for human greed.
"Bride burnings", where a dowry was felt insufficient
:rolleyes: Are you serious? The will be hanged for murder!
:help:"Honour killings" :rolleyes: (of brides, but I don't think grooms) for caste reasons
Societal norms. Yes grooms have been killed as well. All powerful Khap Panchayats need to be banned & those leaders need to be convicted.
I presume Ashi can add context to my admittedly far-removed information. The "real outcome" is not candlelight marches, or expressions of sympathy (by ppl like a state First Minister who should have loudly demanded action long ago; by a union Home Minister who got his job the day after the massive blackout in July when he was Power Minister :help: or by the out-of-touch Prime Minister who promoted him then).
Most politicos are douche bags. They got there because of the said reason.
Its what happens starting this week in the state and (union, meaning Federal) parliaments. Maybe the governments of both should even resign, with new elections called. Maybe a new political alignment is needed, as happened after the short dictatorship PM Indira Gandhi imposed in the mid-70s.
Not applicable.
Maybe a huge # of police decoys need 2B deployed, making would-be rapists wonder who a young woman really is. (Also "counter decoys" to bust corrupt cops). And certainly every unresolved case of bride-burning, other "honour" killing, infanticide, and sex-selection abortion (where there's a pattern with a given clinic) should be investigated, with many prosecuted.
Law enforcement needs to take place.

Although the first three points IMO shouldn't be convoluted with rape.

Ashi
Dec 30th, 2012, 04:46 PM
Does the fact that all marriages are arranged is a contrubuting factor Indians young men lacking the skills to court girls/women?
You are mistaken if you think there is no courtship in an arranged marriage.
Although arranged marriages is at the center of Indian family stability compared to the west, its unintended consequences is that it has robbed young men the necessary social skills to negotiate romantic relationship with a girl.
Indian women don't give you the time of day if you don't have a good education, come from a good family & have good finances. If you don't any of these three attributes regardless of what a smooth talker you are, you are going to remain unmarried.(from my experience).
With that said, it does not explain the fact politicians and policemen, members of institutions charged to protect women, also sucumb to the crime of raping not only women, but also under age girls, and try to cover it up.
They rape because they can. Low conviction rate and no strong deterrents/laws.

The rapists in this case were low income jobless delinquents who had nothing going for them. If you have nothing going for you, you won't get a woman. They would have probably done this before and not gotten caught in a group and this alarming confidence in this incident.

wild.river
Dec 30th, 2012, 05:28 PM
The rapists in this case were low income jobless delinquents who had nothing going for them. If you have nothing going for you, you won't get a woman. They would have probably done this before and not gotten caught in a group and this alarming confidence in this incident.

i'd go so far as to say that these sickos were so fucked in the head, they would've sexually assaulted women no matter which country they lived in. but india's lax security and paternalistic attitude towards women allowed them to rape in this particularly heinous way.

*JR*
Dec 30th, 2012, 05:32 PM
Reason: Dowry which is illegal. You cannot account for human greed.

Societal norms. Yes grooms have been killed as well. All powerful Khap Panchayats need to be banned & those leaders need to be convicted.

Most politicos are douche bags. They got there because of the said reason.

Law enforcement needs to take place.

All you're saying is: "Hey public officials, do the right thing". Their failure to do so, presumably related to your words I quoted in bold, are a big reason this stuff still happens in 2012. Just asking the present scumbags to do a better job seems like a futile endeavour, no? :scratch: Maybe they need you in the Lok Sabha (akin to the US House of Representatives).

tennisbum79
Dec 30th, 2012, 06:09 PM
You are mistaken if you think there is no courtship in an arranged marriage.

I take you word for it.
But let me just add my take.
It is a man's market, the women are a captive audience in the process

From what one of my colleague explained to me, which I may not get right here, but I will try to the best of my recollection , the future groom gets a list about 10 women (complete with photographs and suscint info) deemed suitable by his parents.

Then, future groom goes through an iterative process of elimination via a correspondence , using all communication means at his disposal; including traveling back to India to meet some of the candiates still in the running
The process will end with one lucky chosen woman.

So it seems to me, the parents have already done the initial heavy lifting by assembling the list; the women selected know they are in competition with other women. Making persuasive skills of the future groom in the courtship a negligible factor in the success of the courtship.

I see this as the future groom clearly being in driving seat.

I suspect for these women accept to be on list, they probaly have taken a liking to the man they were presented, maybe not emotional, but still they like what they see.
It would not make sense for a woman to waste time accepting to be on the list if she does not care for the guy.

The rapists in this case were low income jobless delinquents who had nothing going for them. If you have nothing going for you, you won't get a woman. They would have probably done this before and not gotten caught in a group and this alarming confidence in this incident.
However, I do agree that education and financial situation play a major role.
But can't women and men of comparable education, income level enter the contract of marriage?
And I think this is where the lack of skill in courtship does the low income yougn men a disservice.

The parent not feeling confident that their sons will find a suitable mate, given his education and income level and the family standing, won't certainly be motivated to try to find one.

So normally, it would be up to the son to look for himself, and naturally he will look within his own social circles.
If that is too simplistic and anthropolgical, slap me.:)
I know we are veering off the main topic, but it has been informative.

*JR*
Dec 30th, 2012, 07:28 PM
It is a man's market, the women are a captive audience in the process....

Simple arithmetic means that this has to change (probably has so already) after years of abhorrent sex-selection abortion (and whatever amount of female infanticide; a term I held off on using ITT until Ashi did, as I wasn't sure if its more than an extreme rarity these days).

In other words, they may already have a "potential bride shortage", that would take years after the artificial "tilt" away from letting girls be born and grow up ends to reverse. (Also in China, where the one-child policy has led to both regarding gender preferences, as families opt for boys they presume can provide for them in the parents' old age).

Why does rape happen more in Delhi than other parts of India? I don't know, but I doubt that news from outside the big cities is internationally reported very well. (Also maybe the case with rapes in China that aren't in big cities like Beijing and Shanghai).

And of course a huge number of rapes go unreported in societies where the girl or woman is blamed, ala "she was asking for it". That happens everywhere, more so in religiously fundamentalist communities; and not just Islamic ones, though the media gives the impression that the "blame the victim" thing is far more prevalent in them.

The BS about "virgin brides", right down to virginity exams and the old "white dress vs. pink dress" wedding stigma contributes to this. And a century ago in the US, parents who migrated from traditional societies (especially Catholic ones) would literally mail a blood-stained sheet from a new bride "losing her virginity" back to relatives in "the old country".

Groups not mentioned above (for example, my prudish Jewish forbears) are hardly innocent in terms of this double-standard either. BTW, I still have extremely high regard for Ashi, and hope that she will indeed win elective office.

tennisbum79
Dec 30th, 2012, 07:37 PM
Simple arithmetic means that this has to change (probably has so already) after years of abhorrent sex-selection abortion (and whatever amount of female infanticide; a term I held off on using ITT until Ashi did, as I wasn't sure if its more than an extreme rarity these days).

In other words, they may already have a "potential bride shortage", that would take years after the artificial "tilt" away from letting girls be born and grow up ends to reverse. (Also in China, where the one-child policy has led to both regarding gender preferences, as families opt for boys they presume can provide for them in the parents' old age).

Why does rape happen more in Delhi than other parts of India? I don't know, but I doubt that news from outside the big cities is internationally reported very well. (Also maybe the case with rapes in China that aren't in big cities like Beijing and Shanghai).

And of course a huge number of rapes go unreported in societies where the girl or woman is blamed, ala "she was asking for it". That happens everywhere, more so in religiously fundamentalist communities; and not just Islamic ones, though the media gives the impression that the "blame the victim" thing is far more prevalent in them..
I thought China's men/women ratio was much worse than anywhere else on the planet?


Groups not mentioned above (for example, my prudish Jewish forbears) are hardly innocent in terms of this double-standard either. BTW, I still have extremely high regard for Ashi, and hope that she will indeed win elective office.
Ashi is running for elective office?

mykarma
Dec 30th, 2012, 10:47 PM
Unfuckingbelievable... so senseless. RIP young lady.




I would've thought Blacks were at the top, but then I haven't had the misfortune of reading his crap for as long as you have. :hug:
It's probably a tie but he doesn't get the same backlash against Muslims because they're not as many Muslims on this board.

mykarma
Dec 30th, 2012, 10:55 PM
I take you word for it.
But let me just add my take.
It is a man's market, the women are a captive audience in the process

From what one of my colleague explained to me, which I may not get right here, but I will try to the best of my recollection , the future groom gets a list about 10 women (complete with photographs and suscint info) deemed suitable by his parents.

Then, future groom goes through an iterative process of elimination via a correspondence , using all communication means at his disposal; including traveling back to India to meet some of the candiates still in the running
The process will end with one lucky chosen woman.

So it seems to me, the parents have already done the initial heavy lifting by assembling the list; the women selected know they are in competition with other women. Making persuasive skills of the future groom in the courtship a negligible factor in the success of the courtship.

I see this as the future groom clearly being in driving seat.

I suspect for these women accept to be on list, they probaly have taken a liking to the man they were presented, maybe not emotional, but still they like what they see.
It would not make sense for a woman to waste time accepting to be on the list if she does not care for the guy.


However, I do agree that education and financial situation play a major role.
But can't women and men of comparable education, income level enter the contract of marriage?
And I think this is where the lack of skill in courtship does the low income yougn men a disservice.

The parent not feeling confident that their sons will find a suitable mate, given his education and income level and the family standing, won't certainly be motivated to try to find one.

So normally, it would be up to the son to look for himself, and naturally he will look within his own social circles.
If that is too simplistic and anthropolgical, slap me.:)
I know we are veering off the main topic, but it has been informative.
I wish my friend from India was still here so I could talk to her about this and get a honest answer from a woman's prespective but she moved to L.A. :sad: Yes there are rapes in the U.S. but the attitude of officials and society doesn't appear to be the same IMO.

tennisbum79
Dec 30th, 2012, 11:19 PM
:sad: Yes there are rapes in the U.S. but the attitude of officials and society doesn't appear to be the same IMO.
Yes, that is key.
And we in the US have been where India is now.
Authority not taking it seriously and/or not prosecuting the perpetrators
Unsympathetic or indifferent public somehow blaming the victim, insinuating she brought it upon herself
1 and 2 lead the victim not willing to come forward for fear of being further humiliated and psychologically violatedUnfortunately it might take few more incident like this for both the public, government officials, law officials to gradually move do their respective parts.
Public keep applying the pressure on government and law enforcement official to hold them accountable.
Governmentofficials to remove law enforcement officials who don't take the act of rape as a serious crime.

It does not mean all rapes will be eliminated, making it unacceptable by part of the society will make things better.
And that is where the US is now. Of course we still have rapes, but we have mechanism to deal with the perpetrator effectively, giving a sense of security to women and their families, and warning the perpetrator that they will no longer get away with this crime.

JN
Dec 31st, 2012, 01:40 AM
https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-ash4/188118_9504834878_580996619_q.jpg (https://www.facebook.com/taramossauthor) Tara Moss (https://www.facebook.com/taramossauthor)

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/224882_10151360956969879_2047660162_n.jpg

- I applaud the protestors in Delhi who are fighting for the rights of women in their city to live without the constant fear of sexual violence. -

tennisbum79
Dec 31st, 2012, 01:46 AM
https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-ash4/188118_9504834878_580996619_q.jpg (https://www.facebook.com/taramossauthor) Tara Moss (https://www.facebook.com/taramossauthor)

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/224882_10151360956969879_2047660162_n.jpg

- I applaud the protestors in Delhi who are fighting for the rights of women in their city to live without the constant fear of sexual violence. -
This is a direct response to Start da Game post below

why should a woman in india need to go out at night alone unless in exceptional circumstances? no indian family encourages it as far as i know......that is the cultural difference i was talking about......

and delhi =/= india.....i did say earlier that something's wrong with delhi and also reasoned why......

what i don't like is people pointing at a nation with 1.2 billion people without knowing much about it......you guys maybe having public transport in every city at night because your population count maybe negligible compared to us and your resources/person might be plentiful.......

Lin Lin
Dec 31st, 2012, 04:20 AM
:)

Ashi
Dec 31st, 2012, 04:34 AM
I take you word for it.
But let me just add my take.
It is a man's market, the women are a captive audience in the process

From what one of my colleague explained to me, which I may not get right here, but I will try to the best of my recollection , the future groom gets a list about 10 women (complete with photographs and suscint info) deemed suitable by his parents.

Then, future groom goes through an iterative process of elimination via a correspondence , using all communication means at his disposal; including traveling back to India to meet some of the candiates still in the running
The process will end with one lucky chosen woman.

So it seems to me, the parents have already done the initial heavy lifting by assembling the list; the women selected know they are in competition with other women. Making persuasive skills of the future groom in the courtship a negligible factor in the success of the courtship.

I see this as the future groom clearly being in driving seat.

I suspect for these women accept to be on list, they probaly have taken a liking to the man they were presented, maybe not emotional, but still they like what they see.
It would not make sense for a woman to waste time accepting to be on the list if she does not care for the guy.
This can occur the other way around also.:lol:

However, I do agree that education and financial situation play a major role.
But can't women and men of comparable education, income level enter the contract of marriage?
Yes they can. This is the way many young Indians go about it.
And I think this is where the lack of skill in courtship does the low income yougn men a disservice.

The parent not feeling confident that their sons will find a suitable mate, given his education and income level and the family standing, won't certainly be motivated to try to find one.

So normally, it would be up to the son to look for himself, and naturally he will look within his own social circles.
If that is too simplistic and anthropolgical, slap me.:)
I know we are veering off the main topic, but it has been informative.
Yeah, let's not deviate.

Ashi
Dec 31st, 2012, 04:37 AM
Ashi is running for elective office?
:spit:

Start da Game
Dec 31st, 2012, 06:53 AM
Yes, that is key.
And we in the US have been where India is now.

Authority not taking it seriously and/or not proescuting the perpetrators
Unsympahtetic or indifferent public somehow blaming the victim, insinuating she brought it upon herself
1 and 2 lead the victim not willing to come forward for fear of being further humiliated and pyschologically violatedUnfortunately it might take few more incident like this for both the public, government officials, law officials to gradually move do their respective parts.
Public keep applying the pressure on goverment and law enforcement official to hold them accountable.
Goverment officials to remove law enforcment officials who don't take the act of rape as a serious crime.

It does not mean all rapes will be eliminated, making it unacceptable by part of the society will make things better.
And that is where the US is now. Of course we still have rapes, but we have mechanism to deal with the perpetrator effectively, giving a sense of security to women and their families, and warning the perpetrator that they will no longer get away with this crime.

your's should be the last country that can boast about "sense of security".......

1. there is that stupid gunlaw of yours......forget about women, even men are not safe in your country......i am laughing my arse off for that alone......nobody is sure whether they will return home without getting bumped off in some downtown......

2. i have already posted the rape statistics which are very high considering how low your population count is compared to india.......even the men are raped in your country....... :happy:

3. countless mugging incidents on foreigners in broad daylight......shame really......

4. people on the streets begging for jobs and bread......

we don't live like dogs fucking different women every three months and giving it a name "relationship" or whatever and ending up living alone, leading nomadic lives by mid 30s with no real essence of life......you should be the last one to speak about indian marriages and romance......

we taught the world how to make romance......sex and romance doesn't mean just pulling it out and banging back and forth.......go through the ancient indian scripts and know it yourself what the real purpose of sex is and how a man can be romantic......

"a woman roaming in the night all alone" might suit your lifestyle, not ours.......

just go away and look at your own motherland......don't bother about india......understanding india is beyond your comprehending abilities.......so just stop bullshitting about what measures need to be taken.......like i said, we don't take advises from people who are in far worse condition than us......

Lin Lin
Dec 31st, 2012, 12:21 PM
:eek:

kwilliams
Dec 31st, 2012, 12:45 PM
https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-ash4/188118_9504834878_580996619_q.jpg (https://www.facebook.com/taramossauthor) Tara Moss (https://www.facebook.com/taramossauthor)

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/224882_10151360956969879_2047660162_n.jpg

- I applaud the protestors in Delhi who are fighting for the rights of women in their city to live without the constant fear of sexual violence. -

This is great to see! :)

Start the Game, maybe you should take issue with the actual core content of tennisbum's post and not just go on a mad tangent because you take issue with the term "sense of security." Tennisbum was saying that women had a sense of security because sex crimes are properly dealt with...so I don't see why you are bring up gun laws. It's pointless to take things so far out of context. It's not like Tennisbum said there was a lower rate of rape in the US.

Also, implying that there's something wrong with people engaging in casual relationships or being socially and or professionally adrift in their mid 30s was a cheap shot and utterly pointless. Do you have any statistics to back this up or any way to relate these thoughts to Tennisbum's post?

If you don't like what s/he said then argue with the meat of his/her post rather than engaging in pointless mudslinging.

mykarma
Dec 31st, 2012, 01:22 PM
your's should be the last country that can boast about "sense of security".......

1. there is that stupid gunlaw of yours......forget about women, even men are not safe in your country......i am laughing my arse off for that alone......nobody is sure whether they will return home without getting bumped off in some downtown......

2. i have already posted the rape statistics which are very high considering how low your population count is compared to india.......even the men are raped in your country....... :happy:

3. countless mugging incidents on foreigners in broad daylight......shame really......

4. people on the streets begging for jobs and bread......

we don't live like dogs fucking different women every three months and giving it a name "relationship" or whatever and ending up living alone, leading nomadic lives by mid 30s with no real essence of life......you should be the last one to speak about indian marriages and romance......

we taught the world how to make romance......sex and romance doesn't mean just pulling it out and banging back and forth.......go through the ancient indian scripts and know it yourself what the real purpose of sex is and how a man can be romantic......

"a woman roaming in the night all alone" might suit your lifestyle, not ours.......

just go away and look at your own motherland......don't bother about india......understanding india is beyond your comprehending abilities.......so just stop bullshitting about what measures need to be taken.......like i said, we don't take advises from people who are in far worse condition than us......
Interesting that you'd have the audacity to talk about people on the street begging for food with the poverty level in India.

Ashi
Dec 31st, 2012, 01:40 PM
:worship:I love how the President's son Abhijeet Mukherjee gets pwned by Arnab Goswami on his comments on the protestors.:worship:
Normally, I think the anchor shamelessly plays to the house and is over the top to increase TV ratings. But this time he really came through.

mom0pQTM6yE

tennisbum79
Dec 31st, 2012, 01:46 PM
your's should be the last country that can boast about "sense of security".......

1. there is that stupid gunlaw of yours......forget about women, even men are not safe in your country......i am laughing my arse off for that alone......nobody is sure whether they will return home without getting bumped off in some downtown......

2. i have already posted the rape statistics which are very high considering how low your population count is compared to india.......even the men are raped in your country....... :happy:

3. countless mugging incidents on foreigners in broad daylight......shame really......

4. people on the streets begging for jobs and bread......

we don't live like dogs fucking different women every three months and giving it a name "relationship" or whatever and ending up living alone, leading nomadic lives by mid 30s with no real essence of life......you should be the last one to speak about indian marriages and romance......

we taught the world how to make romance......sex and romance doesn't mean just pulling it out and banging back and forth.......go through the ancient indian scripts and know it yourself what the real purpose of sex is and how a man can be romantic......

"a woman roaming in the night all alone" might suit your lifestyle, not ours.......

just go away and look at your own motherland......don't bother about india......understanding india is beyond your comprehending abilities.......so just stop bullshitting about what measures need to be taken.......like i said, we don't take advises from people who are in far worse condition than us......
You are not worth debating, constantly skirting the issues and engaging in polemics that have little to do with the main points of the discussion.

You are in total denial.
You are talking about India as if we are still in the age of telegrah and that nobody knows what is going on there.

Fortunately, yours is a minority opinion on this forum.
Goobye

tennisbum79
Dec 31st, 2012, 02:08 PM
:worship:I love how the President's son Abhijeet Mukherjee gets pwned by Arnab Goswami on his comments on the protestors.:worship:
Normally, I think the anchor shamelessly plays to the house and is over the top to increase TV ratings. But this time he really came through.

mom0pQTM6yE
I agree with that the anchor Goswami is playing to the audience, but he is expressing hte pent up anger and frustration of many.
With that said, I wish the woman activist has had more time.

She sees the big picture and wanted to talk behind what Mr Mukherjee said and addressed the entire political class treatment of women in general.

Thanks for posting it.

Ashi
Dec 31st, 2012, 02:12 PM
You are talking about India as if we are still in the age of telegrah and that nobody knows what is going on there.
I'd just like to clarify that most Indians on this board, due to being a tennis board are all educated, upwardly mobile & have strong opinions.
We are always trying to break from the 'poor, hungry, snake charmers etc etc ' mould. Yet, people will mostly generalize and say India has still a long way to go....potray the negatives rather than the positives. Hence, you see the defensiveness here.
We've come a long way. The fact that you see this outrage IS a good sign for young India.

Ashi
Dec 31st, 2012, 02:17 PM
I agree with that the anchor Goswami is playing to the audience, but he is expressing hte pent up anger and frustration of many.
With that said, I wish the woman activist has had more time.

She sees the big picture and wanted to talk behind what Mr Mukherjee said and addressed the entire political class treatment of women in general.

Thanks for posting it.
That's only 1 part of a 4 part segment on views by our political class.

tennisbum79
Dec 31st, 2012, 02:33 PM
I'd just like to clarify that most Indians on this board, due to being a tennis board are all educated, upwardly mobile & have strong opinions.
We are always trying to break from the 'poor, hungry, snake charmers etc etc ' mould. Yet, people will mostly generalize and say India has still a long way to go....potray the negatives rather than the positives. Hence, you see the defensiveness here.
We've come a long way. The fact that you see this outrage IS a good sign for young India.
I do understand that, but I think Mr Mukherjee reminds me of of Start Da Game , except he (Mukherjee ) was willing to withdraw his unfortunate statements.
He is probably upset that Mukherjee was taken to task and may not appreciate your posting this video.

tennisbum79
Dec 31st, 2012, 03:27 PM
That's only 1 part of a 4 part segment on views by our political class.
I saw the rest of the videos, but it was the same. Unfortunately, the woman activist did not get much more time.
The politicians are postering talking around the issue.

Politicians are the same everywhere.

mykarma
Dec 31st, 2012, 03:37 PM
India rape sets off debate over women's rights
By By RAVI NESSMAN | Associated Press – 1 hr 4 mins ago


Indian students shout slogans during a protest rally in Hyderabad, India, Monday, Dec. 31, 2012. The gang-rape and killing of a New Delhi student has set off an impassioned debate about what India needs to do to prevent such a tragedy from happening again. The country remained in mourning Monday, two days after the 23-year-old physiotherapy student died from her internal wounds in a Singapore hospital. (AP Photo/Mahesh Kumar A.)Enlarge Gallery

Gang rape protests in India

Related Content

Indian schoolgirls form numbers representing the year 2013 during a prayer ceremony in Ahmadabad, India, Monday, Dec. 31, 2012. The gang-rape and killing of a New Delhi student has set off an impassioned debate about what India needs to do to prevent such a tragedy from happening again. The country remained in mourning Monday, two days after the 23-year-old physiotherapy student died from her internal wounds in a Singapore hospital. Floral writing at the center reads "Condolence to Damini," a symbolic name given to the victim. (AP Photo/Ajit Solanki)Enlarge Photo

Indian schoolgirls form numbers …
An Indian student shouts slogans during a protest rally in Hyderabad, India, Monday, Dec. 31, 2012. The gang-rape and killing of a New Delhi student has set off an impassioned debate about what India needs to do to prevent such a tragedy from happening again. The country remained in mourning Monday, two days after the 23-year-old physiotherapy student died from her internal wounds in a Singapore hospital. (AP Photo/Mahesh Kumar A.)Enlarge Photo

An Indian student shouts slogans …

NEW DELHI (AP) — India's army and navy canceled New Year's celebrations on Monday out of respect for a New Delhi student whose gang-rape and murder has set off an impassioned debate about what the nation needs to do to prevent such a tragedy from happening again.

Protesters and politicians have called for tougher rape laws, major police reforms and a transformation in the way the country treats its women.

"To change a society as conservative, traditional and patriarchal as ours, we will have a long haul," said Ranjana Kumari, director of the Center for Social Research. "It will take some time, but certainly there is a beginning."

The country remained in mourning Monday, two days after the 23-year-old physiotherapy student died from her internal wounds in the Singapore hospital where she had been sent for emergency treatment. Six men have been arrested and charged with murder in the Dec. 16 attack on a New Delhi bus. They face the death penalty if convicted, police said.

The army and navy canceled their New Year's celebrations, as did Sonia Gandhi, head of the ruling Congress party. Hotels and clubs across the capital also said they would forego their usual parties.

"She has become the daughter of the entire nation," said Sushma Swaraj, a leader of the opposition Bharatiya Janata Party.

Hundreds of mourners continued their daily protests near Parliament demanding swift government action.

"So much needs to be done to end the oppression of women," said Murarinath Kushwaha, a man whose two friends were on a hunger strike to draw attention to the issue.

Some commentators compared the rape victim, whose name has not been released by police, to Mohamed Bouazizi, the Tunisian street vendor whose self-immolation set off the Arab Spring. There was hope her tragedy could mark a turning point for gender rights in a country where women often refuse to leave their homes at night out of fear and where sex-selective abortions and even female infanticide have wildly skewed the gender ratio.

"It cannot be business as usual anymore," the Hindustan Times newspaper wrote in an editorial.

Politicians from across the spectrum called for a special session of Parliament to pass new laws to increase punishments for rapists — including possible chemical castration — and to set up fast-track courts to deal with rape cases within 90 days.

The government has proposed creating a public database of convicted rapists to shame them, and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has set up two committees to look into what lapses led to the rape and to propose changes in the law.

The Delhi government on Monday inaugurated a new helpline — 181 — for women, though it wasn't working because of glitches.

Responding to complaints that police refuse to file cases of abuse or harassment brought by women, the city force has appointed an officer to meet with women's groups monthly and crack down on the problem, New Delhi Lt. Gov. Tejendra Khanna said.

"We have mandated that any time any lady visits a police station with a complaint, it has to be recorded on the spot," he said.

Kumari said the Delhi police commissioner sent her a message Monday asking her group to restart police sensitivity training that it had suspended due to lack of funds.

There have also been proposals to install a quota to ensure one-third of Delhi's police are women.

There also have been signs of a change in the public debate about crimes against women.

Other rapes suddenly have become front-page news in Indian newspapers, and politicians are being heavily criticized for any remarks considered misogynistic or unsympathetic to women.

A state legislator from Rajasthan was ridiculed Monday across TV news channels after suggesting that one way to stop rapes would be to change girls' school uniforms to pants instead of skirts.

"How can he tell us to change our clothes?" said Gureet Kaur, a student protester in the Rajasthani town of Alwar. "Why can't girls live freely?"

Some activists have accused politicians of being so cossetted in their security bubbles that they have no idea of the daily travails people are suffering.

Kumari said the country was failing in its basic responsibility to protect its citizens. But she was heartened to see so many young men at the protests along with women.

"I have never heard so many people who felt so deep down hurt," she said. "It will definitely have some impact."

In Geneva, the U.N. human rights chief called Monday for fundamental change in India.

"Let us hope that 2013 will be the year the tide is turned on violence against women in India and all women can walk free without fear," said Navi Pillay, the U.N. high commissioner for human rights. "The public is demanding a transformation in systems that discriminate against women to a culture that respects the dignity of women in law and practice," she said in a statement.

Pillay, a South African of Indian origin, urged Indians not to give in to calls for capital punishment for rapists. "However terrible the crime, the death penalty is not the answer," she said.

___

Associated Press reporters Archana Thiyagarajan and Ashok Sharma in New Delhi and Frank Jordans in Berlin contributed to this report.

___

Follow Ravi Nessman on Twitter at twitter.com/ravinessman

tennisbum79
Dec 31st, 2012, 03:54 PM
India rape sets off debate over women's rights
By By RAVI NESSMAN | Associated Press – 1 hr 4 mins ago


Indian students shout slogans during a protest rally in Hyderabad, India, Monday, Dec. 31, 2012. The gang-rape and killing of a New Delhi student has set off an impassioned debate about what India needs to do to prevent such a tragedy from happening again. The country remained in mourning Monday, two days after the 23-year-old physiotherapy student died from her internal wounds in a Singapore hospital. (AP Photo/Mahesh Kumar A.)Enlarge Gallery

Gang rape protests in India

Related Content

Indian schoolgirls form numbers representing the year 2013 during a prayer ceremony in Ahmadabad, India, Monday, Dec. 31, 2012. The gang-rape and killing of a New Delhi student has set off an impassioned debate about what India needs to do to prevent such a tragedy from happening again. The country remained in mourning Monday, two days after the 23-year-old physiotherapy student died from her internal wounds in a Singapore hospital. Floral writing at the center reads "Condolence to Damini," a symbolic name given to the victim. (AP Photo/Ajit Solanki)Enlarge Photo

Indian schoolgirls form numbers …
An Indian student shouts slogans during a protest rally in Hyderabad, India, Monday, Dec. 31, 2012. The gang-rape and killing of a New Delhi student has set off an impassioned debate about what India needs to do to prevent such a tragedy from happening again. The country remained in mourning Monday, two days after the 23-year-old physiotherapy student died from her internal wounds in a Singapore hospital. (AP Photo/Mahesh Kumar A.)Enlarge Photo

An Indian student shouts slogans …

NEW DELHI (AP) — India's army and navy canceled New Year's celebrations on Monday out of respect for a New Delhi student whose gang-rape and murder has set off an impassioned debate about what the nation needs to do to prevent such a tragedy from happening again.

Protesters and politicians have called for tougher rape laws, major police reforms and a transformation in the way the country treats its women.

"To change a society as conservative, traditional and patriarchal as ours, we will have a long haul," said Ranjana Kumari, director of the Center for Social Research. "It will take some time, but certainly there is a beginning."

The country remained in mourning Monday, two days after the 23-year-old physiotherapy student died from her internal wounds in the Singapore hospital where she had been sent for emergency treatment. Six men have been arrested and charged with murder in the Dec. 16 attack on a New Delhi bus. They face the death penalty if convicted, police said.

The army and navy canceled their New Year's celebrations, as did Sonia Gandhi, head of the ruling Congress party. Hotels and clubs across the capital also said they would forego their usual parties.

"She has become the daughter of the entire nation," said Sushma Swaraj, a leader of the opposition Bharatiya Janata Party.

Hundreds of mourners continued their daily protests near Parliament demanding swift government action.

"So much needs to be done to end the oppression of women," said Murarinath Kushwaha, a man whose two friends were on a hunger strike to draw attention to the issue.

Some commentators compared the rape victim, whose name has not been released by police, to Mohamed Bouazizi, the Tunisian street vendor whose self-immolation set off the Arab Spring. There was hope her tragedy could mark a turning point for gender rights in a country where women often refuse to leave their homes at night out of fear and where sex-selective abortions and even female infanticide have wildly skewed the gender ratio.

"It cannot be business as usual anymore," the Hindustan Times newspaper wrote in an editorial.

Politicians from across the spectrum called for a special session of Parliament to pass new laws to increase punishments for rapists — including possible chemical castration — and to set up fast-track courts to deal with rape cases within 90 days.

The government has proposed creating a public database of convicted rapists to shame them, and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has set up two committees to look into what lapses led to the rape and to propose changes in the law.

The Delhi government on Monday inaugurated a new helpline — 181 — for women, though it wasn't working because of glitches.

Responding to complaints that police refuse to file cases of abuse or harassment brought by women, the city force has appointed an officer to meet with women's groups monthly and crack down on the problem, New Delhi Lt. Gov. Tejendra Khanna said.

"We have mandated that any time any lady visits a police station with a complaint, it has to be recorded on the spot," he said.

Kumari said the Delhi police commissioner sent her a message Monday asking her group to restart police sensitivity training that it had suspended due to lack of funds.

There have also been proposals to install a quota to ensure one-third of Delhi's police are women.

There also have been signs of a change in the public debate about crimes against women.

Other rapes suddenly have become front-page news in Indian newspapers, and politicians are being heavily criticized for any remarks considered misogynistic or unsympathetic to women.

A state legislator from Rajasthan was ridiculed Monday across TV news channels after suggesting that one way to stop rapes would be to change girls' school uniforms to pants instead of skirts.

"How can he tell us to change our clothes?" said Gureet Kaur, a student protester in the Rajasthani town of Alwar. "Why can't girls live freely?"

Some activists have accused politicians of being so cossetted in their security bubbles that they have no idea of the daily travails people are suffering.

Kumari said the country was failing in its basic responsibility to protect its citizens. But she was heartened to see so many young men at the protests along with women.

"I have never heard so many people who felt so deep down hurt," she said. "It will definitely have some impact."

In Geneva, the U.N. human rights chief called Monday for fundamental change in India.

"Let us hope that 2013 will be the year the tide is turned on violence against women in India and all women can walk free without fear," said Navi Pillay, the U.N. high commissioner for human rights. "The public is demanding a transformation in systems that discriminate against women to a culture that respects the dignity of women in law and practice," she said in a statement.

Pillay, a South African of Indian origin, urged Indians not to give in to calls for capital punishment for rapists. "However terrible the crime, the death penalty is not the answer," she said.

___

Associated Press reporters Archana Thiyagarajan and Ashok Sharma in New Delhi and Frank Jordans in Berlin contributed to this report.

___

Follow Ravi Nessman on Twitter at twitter.com/ravinessman

They should keep the pressure up.
It is also waking up people who were indifferent or/and sitting on the sidelinese while these public gang rapes are happening
These are the points I was making

mykarma
Jan 1st, 2013, 12:03 AM
:worship:I love how the President's son Abhijeet Mukherjee gets pwned by Arnab Goswami on his comments on the protestors.:worship:
Normally, I think the anchor shamelessly plays to the house and is over the top to increase TV ratings. But this time he really came through.

mom0pQTM6yE
That woman pwned the crap out of the president's son as well as Start da Game. :worship:

mykarma
Jan 1st, 2013, 12:29 AM
I'd just like to clarify that most Indians on this board, due to being a tennis board are all educated, upwardly mobile & have strong opinions.
We are always trying to break from the 'poor, hungry, snake charmers etc etc ' mould. Yet, people will mostly generalize and say India has still a long way to go....potray the negatives rather than the positives. Hence, you see the defensiveness here.
We've come a long way. The fact that you see this outrage IS a good sign for young India.
It wouldn't matter where this happened I think the outrage would be the same but find the rest of your post puzzling. The fact that the protest are happening shows that your countrymen do have a long way to go regarding this particular issue with women. As has been previously stated, all countries have their issues and their citizens have had to fight for their civil rights and even after winning those rights it takes a while to change the hearts of those that have been the oppressor.

It's great to see the support that the women are getting from the young men and hope they'll protect them from harm.

tennisbum79
Jan 1st, 2013, 01:51 AM
It wouldn't matter where this happened I think the outrage would be the same but find the rest of your post puzzling. The fact that the protest are happening shows that your countrymen do have a long way to go regarding this particular issue with women. As has been previously stated, all countries have their issues and their citizens have had to fight for their civil rights and even after winning those rights it takes a while to change the hearts of those that have been the oppressor.

It's great to see the support that the women are getting from the young men and hope they'll protect them from harm.
I did try to make that same point.

In many countries, when people had to fight for their rights, they had to go through these stages of struggles and keep at it for sometimes before the majority of the population comes on board.
In the USA, it happened with Africa-Americans civil right in the USA, women rights to vote, gay rights, right of disable, etc..

Even after laws are passed, there is still resistance from those who oppose these rights in the first place
It takes time to change minds and have a majority consensus that will accept the new reality.

I think this what is meant when posters say "India still has a long way to go."
But as you can see, some Indian posters think it is showing their country in a bad light, insinuating they are backward.
They find malicious intent hidden behind those words.

Actually, I do think Indians have experience with this, having fought for their independence from the British, which did not come easy as we all know. It took time and bloodshed to do it. In fact MLK was inspired by Ghandi's tactics that included patience.

Same thing in South Africa against Apartheid.
As a note, South African Blacks and Indians were and still are great political allies in South Africa.
ANC leadership included South African Indians and went to prison with Nelson Mandela; and other senior members who managed to stay out to go to exile, organize protests, illegal at the time, to keep changing minds.

Objective observers also thought South Africa had a long way to go during the struggle, considering where most countries were with respect to basic human right. Of course the Apartheid supporters thought every thing was well and dandy.

mykarma
Jan 1st, 2013, 03:20 AM
In Indian student's gang rape, murder, two worlds collide

NEW DELHI (Reuters) - One of hundreds of attacks reported in New Delhi each year, the gang rape and murder of a medical student caught Indian authorities and political parties flat-footed, slow to see that the assault on a private bus had come to symbolize an epidemic of crime against women.

In the moments before the December 16 attack, the 23-year-old woman from India's urban middle class, who had recently qualified as a trainee physiotherapist in a private Delhi hospital, and her male friend, a software engineer, were walking home from a cinema at a shopping mall in south Delhi, according to a police reconstruction of events.

A bus, part of a fleet of privately owned vehicles used as public transport across the city of 16 million, and known as India's "rape capital", was at the same time heading toward them. Earlier that day, it had ferried school students but was now empty except for five men and a teenage boy, including its crew, police said. Most of the men were from the city's slums.

One of the six - all now charged with murder - lured the couple onto the bus, promising to drop the woman home, police have said, quoting from an initial statement that she gave from her hospital bed before her condition deteriorated rapidly.

A few minutes into the ride, her friend, 28, grew suspicious when the bus deviated from the supposed route and the men locked the door, according to her statement. They then taunted her for being out with a man late at night, prompting the friend to intervene and provoking an initial scuffle.

The attackers then beat him with a metal rod, knocking him unconscious, before turning on the woman who had tried to come to his defense. Police say the men admitted after their arrest to torturing and raping the student "to teach her a lesson".

At one point, the bus driver gave the wheel to another of the accused and dragged the woman by the neck to the back of the vehicle and forced himself upon her. The other five then took turns raping her and also driving the bus, keeping it circling through the busy streets of India's capital city, police said.

The woman was raped for nearly an hour before the men pushed a metal rod inside her, severely damaging her internal organs, and then dumped both her and her friend on the roadside, 8 km (5 miles) from where they had boarded it, police said.

Robbed of their clothes and belongings, they were found half naked, bleeding and unconscious later that night by a passerby, who alerted the police.

Last year, a rape was reported on average every 20 minutes in India. Just 26 percent of the cases resulted in convictions, according to the National Crime Records Bureau, which registered 24,206 rapes in 2011, up from 22,141 the previous year.

At first, authorities treated the assault on the medical student as one crime among many, and they were not prepared for the furious public reaction that led to running battles between protesters and police near the heart of government in New Delhi.

FAMILY ROLE MODEL

The woman, whose identity has been withheld by police, gave her statement to a sub-divisional magistrate on December 21 in the intensive care unit of Delhi's Safdarjung Hospital, according to media reports. She was undergoing multiple surgical procedures and her condition later began to rapidly worsen.

Ten days after the attack and still in a critical condition, she was flown to Singapore for specialist treatment. She died in Singapore's Mount Elizabeth Hospital two days later. Her body was flown back to Delhi and cremated there on Sunday in a private ceremony.

Family members who had accompanied her to Singapore declined to speak to reporters, but relatives told the Times of India newspaper she had been a role model to her two younger brothers.

Unlike most traditional Indian families who only send their sons to fee-paying colleges or universities, her parents pinned their hopes on the daughter and took loans to fund her studies.

She was born and brought up in a middle class Delhi neighborhood after her family moved to the city more than 20 years ago from the northern state of Uttar Pradesh.

Her male friend recorded his statement to a court days after the attack and helped police identify the six accused. He left for his hometown in Uttar Pradesh late on Saturday, missing the woman's funeral, media reported.

SHAME, ANGER IN SLUM

Four of the accused, all in custody, live in the narrow by-lanes of Ravi Das Camp, a slum about 17 km (11 miles) from the woman's home in southwest Delhi. Inside the slum - home to some 1,200 people who eke out a meager living as rickshaw pullers and tea hawkers - many demanded the death penalty for the accused.

"The incident has really shocked all of us. I don't know how I will get my children admitted to a school. The incident has earned a bad name to this place," said Pooja Kumari, a neighbor of one of the accused.

Girija Shankar, a student, said: "Our heads hang in shame because of the brutal act of these men. They must reap what they have sown."

The house of one of the accused was locked, with neighbors saying his family had left the city to escape the shame and anger. Meena, a 45-year-old neighbor, said she had wanted to join the protests that followed the rape, but was too scared.

"You never know when a mob may attack this slum and attack our houses. But we want to say we're as angry as the entire nation. We want them to be hanged," she said.

Two of the six alleged assailants come from outside Delhi, according to police. One is married with children and was arrested in his native village in Bihar state and the other, a juvenile, is a runaway from a broken home in Uttar Pradesh.

In India, murder is punishable by death by hanging, except in the case of offenders aged below 18.

(Additional reporting by Suchitra Mohanty and Nita Bhalla; Editing by Mark Bendeich and Ian Geoghegan)[/QUOTE]
I don't understand why some on this board are defending how women are treated in India and attacking us for speaking out on behalf of the women. I can't believe how cavalier the authorities were about the brutality this women went through. I guess they think like Start da game who blamed her for being out.

tennisbum79
Jan 1st, 2013, 03:37 AM
The details are gruesome. Hard to read
What does this mean?
What lesson are they trying to teach her?
The attackers then beat him with a metal rod, knocking him unconscious, before turning on the woman who had tried to come to his defense.
Police say the men admitted after their arrest to torturing and raping the student "to teach her a lesson".

Ashi
Jan 1st, 2013, 05:09 AM
It wouldn't matter where this happened I think the outrage would be the same but find the rest of your post puzzling. The fact that the protest are happening shows that your countrymen do have a long way to go regarding this particular issue with women. As has been previously stated, all countries have their issues and their citizens have had to fight for their civil rights and even after winning those rights it takes a while to change the hearts of those that have been the oppressor.

It's great to see the support that the women are getting from the young men and hope they'll protect them from harm.
It wasn't meant in particular about this topic. The outrage is as it should be. And very rightly so.
When I said defensiveness you have to understand from where the Indian posters( here) are coming from. It's not that they don't agree that India needs to improve. They feel the need to defend their country because most often than not you see threads about India in Non-Tennis potraying her in a negative light. I once did a search of threads with India in the title and most of the threads which appeared are negative, as if that's the only way the world sees us.
Indian posters here are the proud, educated, emancipated lot. They feel they are constantly trying to break from this stereotypical image of India.
It's not that any of us deny that we have problems. I hope I was able to put my point across.

Ashi
Jan 1st, 2013, 05:16 AM
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/delhi-police-finalise-1000page-charge-sheet-in-gangrape-case/article4259174.ece
Two days after the death of the 23-year-old gang-rape victim, Delhi Police on Sunday said it have finalised around 1,000-page charge sheet in connection with the incident and plans to submit it in court on Thursday.
A senior police official said the charge sheet, which is being vetted by legal experts, has cited 30 witnesses in connection with the December 16 incident in which the physiotherapy student was raped and brutally assaulted in a moving bus in South Delhi. The victim died in a Singapore hospital on December 29.
Investigators said they will seek death penalty for the accused in the case.
Six persons wer apprehended in connection with the incident, which evoked widespread outrage and anger and triggered violent protests in India Gate and Raisina Hill.
The charge sheet, to be filed in the Saket court, will detail the role of five men while mentioning that a separate report would be sent to Juvenile Justice Board for the trial of the minor boy allegedly involved in the case, the official said.
The charge sheet gives details about the sequence of events, the treatment, shifting of the patient to a Singapore hospital as well as her death, the official said.
Police have invoked rape, murder and other charges against the accused.

gentenaire
Jan 1st, 2013, 09:24 AM
It wasn't meant in particular about this topic. The outrage is as it should be. And very rightly so.
When I said defensiveness you have to understand from where the Indian posters( here) are coming from. It's not that they don't agree that India needs to improve. They feel the need to defend their country because most often than not you see threads about India in Non-Tennis potraying her in a negative light. I once did a search of threads with India in the title and most of the threads which appeared are negative, as if that's the only way the world sees us.
Indian posters here are the proud, educated, emancipated lot. They feel they are constantly trying to break from this stereotypical image of India.
It's not that any of us deny that we have problems. I hope I was able to put my point across.

Ashi, I've enjoyed your insights in this topic. I understand that you wish to defend your country. I never meant to diss India. I see these protests as a good sign. You can feel proud of everyone who's standing up now, who's demanding change. That's a positive thing.

We had the Dutroux scandal 16 years ago. I too get annoyed when reading on foreign sites that this makes our country a pedophile country. We have no more pedophiles than other countries; But it made the news everywhere because of the huge protests. Because it seems that with a properly functioning police force, some of these girls would have been found alive. But the different levels of police hadn't cooperated, they withheld vital information from one another because they didn't want the others to get the scoop, to get full credit. And as a result, children that could have been saved, died. People were shocked that such a thing could happen here and people were shocked to find out how incompetent the police turned out to be. So they took to the streets. The police has been completely reformed now.

So I understand where you're coming from. India is no more a rape country than other countries. But there are certain things that need to change, the view towards women has to change.
I was surprised to find, even in this thread, the very mentality that your fellow countrywomen are protesting against. When I saw the picture on CNN of women holding up the sign "don't tell your daughters not to go, tell your sons to behave themselves", I immediately want to post it here but someone else had already beaten me to it.

JN
Jan 1st, 2013, 09:24 AM
It wasn't meant in particular about this topic. The outrage is as it should be. And very rightly so.
When I said defensiveness you have to understand from where the Indian posters( here) are coming from. It's not that they don't agree that India needs to improve. They feel the need to defend their country because most often than not you see threads about India in Non-Tennis potraying her in a negative light. I once did a search of threads with India in the title and most of the threads which appeared are negative, as if that's the only way the world sees us.
Indian posters here are the proud, educated, emancipated lot. They feel they are constantly trying to break from this stereotypical image of India.
It's not that any of us deny that we have problems. I hope I was able to put my point across.

Hmm. I understand completely.

*JR*
Jan 1st, 2013, 03:29 PM
It wasn't meant in particular about this topic. The outrage is as it should be. And very rightly so.

When I said defensiveness you have to understand from where the Indian posters( here) are coming from. It's not that they don't agree that India needs to improve.

They feel the need to defend their country because most often than not you see threads about India in Non-Tennis portraying her in a negative light.

I once did a search of threads with India in the title and most of the threads which appeared are negative, as if that's the only way the world sees us.

Indian posters here are the proud, educated, emancipated lot. They feel they are constantly trying to break from this stereotypical image of India.

It's not that any of us deny that we have problems. I hope I was able to put my point across.

Sorry, but whose fault is it that the recent South Asia thread (http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=471917) got 41 posts (the last on 16 December) and then fizzled out? :scratch: As have almost every other (non-US related) regional or national thread here; some like the Singapore chat thread last, but frankly are less about the place than for posters from there just chatting with eachother.

No country gets bashed as widely as the US, and American posters (as tennisbum correctly observed ITT) never tell foreigners to "butt out". And I don't just mean the US political thread, but ones about gun violence, acts of race hatred, and other quite shameful stuff. :shrug:

==========================================

Ashi
Jan 1st, 2013, 04:19 PM
First, edit my name out.
Are you going to blame me if I have a life outside of TF and will readily say I'm not an expert on Indian history. If I don't find the topic stimulating I won't comment on it.:rolleyes:
And about the beef you have with another poster, why don't you sort it out with that poster rather than alluding to it so often. It is getting old. I don't want to be dragged into it. Period.
What is the % of Americans w.r.t Indians of this board?
I rest my case.

*JR*
Jan 1st, 2013, 05:17 PM
Are you going to blame me if I have a life outside of TF and will readily say I'm not an expert on Indian history. If I don't find the topic stimulating I won't comment on it.:rolleyes:

And about the beef you have with another poster, why don't you sort it out with that poster rather than alluding to it so often. It is getting old. I don't want to be dragged into it. Period.

What is the % of Americans w.r.t Indians of this board?
I rest my case.

I was referring not to that previous squabble with another Indian poster, but to the insularity on your part (and STG's) that tennisbum79 quite correctly pointed out.

And your point about the ratio of Americans to Indians here is way out of context, as you're using it. The more relevant one is the ratio of US citizens and residents who post in NT to others combined. I dare say that the non-American population is roughly equal to the Americans plus other present US residents.

ITT's about crap that happens IN the USA, there've been a lot of posts by Brits, Frenchies, Germans, Australians, Serbs, etc. etc. And its damn condescending 4U to have no problem with "mere expressions of sympathy" for the unfortunate young woman brutalized in Delhi, but bridle @ deeper analysis.

Like how the backwards elimination of female babies (B4 and even after birth) for a few decades now has inevitably created a shortage of potential romantic partners for young men, some of whom will fulfill their sexual appetites via rape. (Which I'm not defending).

Is India the only place rape happens, of course not. Is police insensitivity and corruption a factor, absolutely. But so is a culture that still treats females in many parts of your country in a manner that's indefensible.

I live in a country where ppl too often use a gun for everything from shooting one's ex-boss or ex-wife and a few co-workers who just happened 2B around, to random students in a school or university, to a young black man one thinks "may" present a clear and present danger.

So threads get started about these killings. And about other ugly behavior, like when a noose is hung from a tree or a cross is burned as an implied threat. Non-Americans express negative opinions, and (again, as tennisbum said) are not to "plz not discuss" the underlying reasons. :shrug:

Ashi
Jan 1st, 2013, 05:49 PM
Insularity?In this thread? I'm pretty much open about discussing various aspects of my country within my experience.
You are welcome to have a deeper analyis. Who is stopping you?
Yes, go on and accuse me of saying 'plz don't discuss' when for the record I've been the only Indian poster who has been forthcoming about discussing this tragedy and its aspects.
That is unacceptable to me. You have successfully managed to piss me off, after YOU PM'ed me about this thread.

Ashi
Jan 1st, 2013, 06:52 PM
Ashi, I've enjoyed your insights in this topic. I understand that you wish to defend your country. I never meant to diss India. I see these protests as a good sign. You can feel proud of everyone who's standing up now, who's demanding change. That's a positive thing.

We had the Dutroux scandal 16 years ago. I too get annoyed when reading on foreign sites that this makes our country a pedophile country. We have no more pedophiles than other countries; But it made the news everywhere because of the huge protests. Because it seems that with a properly functioning police force, some of these girls would have been found alive. But the different levels of police hadn't cooperated, they withheld vital information from one another because they didn't want the others to get the scoop, to get full credit. And as a result, children that could have been saved, died. People were shocked that such a thing could happen here and people were shocked to find out how incompetent the police turned out to be. So they took to the streets. The police has been completely reformed now.

So I understand where you're coming from. India is no more a rape country than other countries. But there are certain things that need to change, the view towards women has to change.
I was surprised to find, even in this thread, the very mentality that your fellow countrywomen are protesting against. When I saw the picture on CNN of women holding up the sign "don't tell your daughters not to go, tell your sons to behave themselves", I immediately want to post it here but someone else had already beaten me to it.
Thanks. I'm proud as well.

bulava
Jan 2nd, 2013, 01:34 PM
This is not helpful.
Pointing finger at the USA does not address the endemic issue of rape in India.
I can undersdand your pride and feel compelled to defend India because you think it is being unfairly ttreated amid this incident, but this pride is misplaced.
It's nothing to do with pointing fingers or my pride. I stated the global reality. Perhaps you should go to FBI website and check the stats or go to UN website and check on rapes committed in countries in terms of per-capita. Indian stats are not high (1.6 per 100,000) when compared to volume of cases in many developed nations. But still over 26,000 (2011) number here is completely unacceptable. Do you want me to quote the US numbers? (it's more than three times).

An objective observer can see why there is an outcry on this particular incident
As an objective observer and active participant I *fund* to my capacity per year. Example, old parents NGOs (thrown out by their children) or children (less than 10 years) who are born with Heart defects (pending operations thousands per state) or campaign against Alcohol (this is company's #1 CSR goal) or child education or farmers who are committing suicides because they are broke/bankrupt and/or they can't afford to buy few sacks of seeds! It's one of the reasons why returned to India. There are many problems here in India, of course in many developed countries too. My new initiative for this year is helping a few parents to know what happened to their missing children. Did you know many thousands of girls per year in my state are vanishing? What's happening to them? No one really bothers or cares. Police can't do everything or be there for everyone any given point of time/place. This is IMPOSSIBLE. What could be done?

The public has had enough of violence against women and no serious action is taken against the perpetrators. So they are expressing their frustration and anger against the authorities.
I get that. But they don't take any serious action on multiple levels. Mere changing rape laws won't do the job. I mentioned so many reasons in my post, there are many more such as economic disparity, psychological problems etc. There is NO silver bullet this case.

Trust me there are much bigger problems in India compared to this as I mentioned in my post. Example, during the last 20 days or so, almost 100 people dead in India due to harsh winter. What about them? How many years more they should die like pests?

These politicians won't do anything. They are busy protecting their skins/bastions/power/states. Most people are becoming self-centered and selfish or they just can't do anything (out of reach, money etc). They should be working on multiple-parameters in terms of short and long run.

IMO people should take initiatives (since Govts can't do much) at least to limit this problem or negating risk. They should get educated on rights/laws (possible for Urban), take precautions, take nothing for granted or be crazy taking risks, go to self-defense classes etc. Lawyers and NGOs should come forward to help the people. How many are there and how many could really afford to tackle this situation given the magnitude of the risk involved? I see very few doing such things on the ground.

Also, it's very important to realize that crimes can't be stopped as some demand like - these must be stopped. It's impossible be it murder, corruption, greed, rape etc because these are encoded deep in the human DNA. Many don't understand this angle. One could only work on the bad stats and strive to bring them to the lowest possible numbers closer to NULL. That's the right frame of thinking instead of harping on emotional or political crap played out on TV channels.

bulava
Jan 2nd, 2013, 02:07 PM
The NDTV debate (http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-big-fight/an-undivided-india/100356) gives all sides, if anyone wants to watch it. I raised it ITT to give another example of what tennisbum said; that issues elsewhere are fair game for Americans, just like crap that happens here is 4U "fur-ners". (And of course to take a whack @ that unnamed poster). :tape:

More relevant to this thread, Vikram did a one hour special 8 days ago about the effect this gang rape may have on the laws there: http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-big-fight/rape-and-punishment-time-for-tougher-laws/259179?vod-related
NDTV is a big bogus and corrupt channel. Their investments are a sham (illegally routed through Mauritius but escaped), their Chief Editor is a big scam (involved in a huge 2G power brokering scandal but got away). Most national channels are either sold out and/or siding with the Govt. This is quite known to many Indians. Point is, there was a much bigger protests against corruption starting from late 2011 to late 2012. Most channels have played down the protests, tarnished the protestors, politicized the cause and what not.

Fundamental big bear problem in any country is Corruption. Again this is not India specific. This a twisted evil which must be brought down to minimum levels. But what media channels did? They slept with the Govt. because most are quite scared of enacting a super strong Jan Lokpal bill.

Had Jan Lakpal bill passed, it would have helped on many parameters such as tackling with Police, Judiciary, Govts, protecting rights, freedom etc on Rape cases. They won't do it. I know this very well.

Start da Game
Jan 2nd, 2013, 02:19 PM
^^solid inputs......like you rightly said, the solution to this problem is far more complex than what is suggested in the media......

like i have been saying from the beginning of this thread, politicians are the biggest scum of the country......particularly the congress which is 10 times worse than any other party in india......problems really start from there......

as for media, i have more respect for two dollar whores than media in india and the world......

i really hope narendra modi takes the throne in 2014......india desperately needs BJP at the moment......only party which is capable of bringing some order again in the country, forget about improvements for time being......

bulava
Jan 2nd, 2013, 02:21 PM
just go away and look at your own motherland......don't bother about india......understanding india is beyond your comprehending abilities.......so just stop bullshitting about what measures need to be taken.......like i said, we don't take advises from people who are in far worse condition than us......
Why are you getting irritated? Let them table their perspective about India. If you've anything to back it up (or rebuttal) then do it properly but not for the sake of argument etc. This is what happening on our TV channels (who just cook crap in the name of debates, have no decency to talk, get personal, no patience, loud voices and what not). By doing this you are giving a chance to others.....

Start da Game
Jan 2nd, 2013, 02:31 PM
Why are you getting irritated? Let them table their perspective about India. If you've anything to back it up (or rebuttal) then do it properly but not for the sake of argument etc. This is what happening on our TV channels (who just cook crap in the name of debates, have no decency to talk, get personal, no patience, loud voices and what not). By doing this you are giving a chance to others.....

i am just giving it back to the hypocrites with hidden agendas.......some people are always looking to pounce on india upon an opportunity......

*JR*
Jan 2nd, 2013, 02:33 PM
It's nothing to do with pointing fingers or my pride. I stated the global reality. Perhaps you should go to FBI website and check the stats or go to UN website and check on rapes committed in countries in terms of per-capita. Indian stats are not high (1.6 per 100,000) when compared to volume of cases in many developed nations. But still over 26,000 (2011) number here is completely unacceptable. Do you want me to quote the US numbers? (it's more than three times).

As an objective observer and active participant I *fund* to my capacity per year. Example, old parents NGOs (thrown out by their children) or children (less than 10 years) who are born with Heart defects (pending operations thousands per state) or campaign against Alcohol (this is company's #1 CSR goal) or child education or farmers who are committing suicides because they are broke/bankrupt and/or they can't afford to buy few sacks of seeds! It's one of the reasons why returned to India. There are many problems here in India, of course in many developed countries too. My new initiative for this year is helping a few parents to know what happened to their missing children. Did you know many thousands of girls per year in my state are vanishing? What's happening to them? No one really bothers or cares. Police can't do everything or be there for everyone any given point of time/place. This is IMPOSSIBLE. What could be done?

I get that. But they don't take any serious action on multiple levels. Mere changing rape laws won't do the job. I mentioned so many reasons in my post, there are many more such as economic disparity, psychological problems etc. There is NO silver bullet this case.

Trust me there are much bigger problems in India compared to this as I mentioned in my post. Example, during the last 20 days or so, almost 100 people dead in India due to harsh winter. What about them? How many years more they should die like pests?

These politicians won't do anything. They are busy protecting their skins/bastions/power/states. Most people are becoming self-centered and selfish or they just can't do anything (out of reach, money etc). They should be working on multiple-parameters in terms of short and long run.

IMO people should take initiatives (since Govts can't do much) at least to limit this problem or negating risk. They should get educated on rights/laws (possible for Urban), take precautions, take nothing for granted or be crazy taking risks, go to self-defense classes etc. Lawyers and NGOs should come forward to help the people. How many are there and how many could really afford to tackle this situation given the magnitude of the risk involved? I see very few doing such things on the ground.

Also, it's very important to realize that crimes can't be stopped as some demand like - these must be stopped. It's impossible be it murder, corruption, greed, rape etc because these are encoded deep in the human DNA. Many don't understand this angle. One could only work on the bad stats and strive to bring them to the lowest possible numbers closer to NULL. That's the right frame of thinking instead of harping on emotional or political crap played out on TV channels.

Superb post, and I certainly "harp on" how the poor are mistreated around the world, including in the US. Anyhow, neither tennisbum nor I would disagree with you that rape is a big problem in the US (and elsewhere).

This thread got derailed with a knee-jerk defensive reaction by Start da Game, with Ashi surprisingly seeming to second that reaction. I say surprising as Ashi has often shown herself 2B superbly intelligent, and could have written an eloquent balanced analysis, as you did here. Instead she defended SDG's insularity (with weak stuff like non-Indians seeing her ppl as a bunch of snake-charmers, etc) which I've never seen happen on this board.

I still think ppl like Ashi (or you) would make good members of the Lok Sabha, especially if (her) panning the idea ITT means she'd go there not giving a FF if she was re-elected or not. (Yes, the US Congress could use ppl who would rather lose than whore out, too). Anyhow, here's a Reuters article (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/01/01/uk-india-rape-politics-idUKBRE90009L20130101) from yesterday that sheds some interesting light on things.

BTW (as Ashi used that irrelevant "but you PM'd me about this thread" dodge) I wish to note what I essentially said: that IF I raised the matter of sex-selection abortion, I expected "pro-choice absolutists" to jump on me.

Now its out there as A factor in India's "rape epidemic", including in major world media, so the PC types who act like any infringement on their sacrosanct word "choice" is verbotten can deal with the simple math: if any country skews the gender balance by misusing technologies like amniocentesis to facilitate backwards traditions like "only sons can provide for us", more young men will be rapists than would be otherwise. :shrug:

Start da Game
Jan 2nd, 2013, 05:14 PM
^^

it is our problem, not yours.......you have your own problems to look at......first take care of them COMPLETELY, then only you qualify for offering suggestions to foreign countries......

now why i poked my nose in a topic like the US gun law is because it is seriously affecting my people as well.......that is all i am saying......

advise? yes, you are free to offer without touching the cultural aspects......

expressing the typical west supremacy(when it doesn't even exist in the first place) and trying to portray your country as one with no loopholes in relative terms? absolutely no......

Start da Game
Jan 2nd, 2013, 06:03 PM
look, why i got irked in this thread is because some people took it for granted that their ways of living would fit with any culture in the world and particularly indian culture......some even went as far mocking the indian traditions......

all that irks me, i find it very silly and arrogant at the same time......it could be because of the cultural history and the background i come from but i always believed in the adage(if there is one) "you are the best judge of yourself"......

all that evoked one poor and angry response from me granted but i couldn't help it......like ashi said, people need to get out of that stereotypical image they have for india.......

you should have seen how many people loathed "slumdog millionaire" and spitted on the british director for making such a shitty film.......people need to come out of that mold towards india......

there will come a day in the future when all the doors are shut in the faces by most countries on most countries and it will come down to india to welcome the refugees......what will you say then?

Start da Game
Jan 2nd, 2013, 06:14 PM
getting back on topic, the rapists are going to get the death sentence......it's almost confirmed......

the reasoning is - they not only raped but tried to kill her by beating her, throwing her out and running the bus over her......that is nothing but attempt to murder......now that the girl is dead, it accounts for murder......

so don't worry......the bastards are doomed......

*JR*
Jan 2nd, 2013, 06:29 PM
^^

it is our problem, not yours.......you have your own problems to look at......first take care of them COMPLETELY, then only you qualify for offering suggestions to foreign countries......

now why i poked my nose in a topic like the US gun law is because it is seriously affecting my people as well.......that is all i am saying......

advise? yes, you are free to offer without touching the cultural aspects......

expressing the typical west supremacy(when it doesn't even exist in the first place) and trying to portray your country as one with no loopholes in relative terms? absolutely no......

"Without touching the cultural aspects"? You mean like ppl being burned to death for marrying someone from the wrong caste? Or do you "only" mean the killing of female babies (for no reason other than gender) both B4 and after birth? :scratch: Maybe both? :shrug:

By that fucked up "logic", white South Africans could have said the same thing about apartheid, the pre-1865 US about slavery, Nazi Germany about the Jewish Laws, etc. :weirdo: Go start your own fucking board, and you can tell ppl "who can discuss what". :spit:

Start da Game
Jan 2nd, 2013, 07:01 PM
"Without touching the cultural aspects"? You mean like ppl being burned to death for marrying someone from the wrong caste? Or do you "only" mean the killing of female babies (for no reason other than gender) both B4 and after birth? :scratch: Maybe both? :shrug:

By that fucked up "logic", white South Africans could have said the same thing about apartheid, the pre-1865 US about slavery, Nazi Germany about the Jewish Laws, etc. :weirdo: Go start your own fucking board, and you can tell ppl "who can discuss what". :spit:

why the fuck are you generalizing based on an odd incident here and there? i routinely see news about brothers fucking their sisters and even their mothers in the west.......does that mean i can generalize and take it as your culture and start believing that there is one such guy in most of your families as well?

why the fuck do you continue to shamelessly take disastrous incidents for what i repeatedly say "cultures"? is that what you think culture means? or is it just that it suits your agenda here?

just stop your hypocritical garbage already.......

Start da Game
Jan 2nd, 2013, 07:16 PM
i am done with this thread......i no longer want to discuss with people with agendas and whose motive is just to piss off indian posters......

enjoy your continual attacks on india and get a kick out of it......i can only pity such people because there must be most things wrong with their own nations, for them to be having to exhibit uninvited interest on low points of other countries in order to self-justify their own sustenance in their respective countries......

*JR*
Jan 2nd, 2013, 07:29 PM
why the fuck are you generalizing based on an odd incident here and there? i routinely see news about brothers fucking their sisters and even their mothers in the west.......does that mean i can generalize and take it as your culture and start believing that there is one such guy in most of your families as well?

why the fuck do you continue to shamelessly take disastrous incidents for what i repeatedly say "cultures"? is that what you think culture means? or is it just that it suits your agenda here?

"An odd incident here and there"? :scratch: Well let's take a couple of stats from a 28 Dec 2012 article on the website of the prestigious Brookings Institution (http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/up-front/posts/2012/12/28-india-gate-protests-desai):

[Finally, it is no secret that India remains a difficult country for women despite major advances by women in professional life. Basic indicators—female literacy, female labor force participation, female life expectancy and maternal mortality—are low relative to South Asian neighbors (Bangladesh and Sri Lanka) and even when compared to poorer countries such as Laos, Yemen and many countries in sub-Saharan Africa. The male-female ratio, a statistic that says much about the status of women in a society, remains one of the lowest in the world with only 940 women per thousand men.

These “missing women” are largely victims of sex-selective abortion, poor investments in health and education for girls, and their general neglect. Delhi and neighboring Haryana state have sex-ratios below the national average: 866 women and 830 women for every thousand men, respectively. The surplus of single men, the prevalence of widespread youth unemployment and the persistence of traditional marriage practices have combined to produce serious social consequences, including violence against women.]

The American posters here are generally quite ready to openly criticize aspects of US culture, and to discuss those with foreigners who enter such threads (like the current one about guns). If you feel the need to "justify" participating there, fine; most non-US posters don't, and US posters don't tell them to justify it. :rolleyes:

If there's a thread started about a (common) atrocity like female genital mutilation in some traditional societies, you better believe that I and other Americans will comment on it, presumably quite harshly. Now if you'll excuse me, I've gotta go fuck my sister. :tape:

mystic ice cube
Jan 2nd, 2013, 07:42 PM
Okay, calm down.
^^

it is our problem, not yours.......you have your own problems to look at......first take care of them COMPLETELY, then only you qualify for offering suggestions to foreign countries......

This isn't a personal attack on India, and yes every country has it's own problems, but what is wrong with showing some compassion? Moreover, feeling angry over such a horrific incident and asking for answers is just. This isn't about your countries pride. We are all human.
now why i poked my nose in a topic like the US gun law is because it is seriously affecting my people as well.......that is all i am saying......
Who makes these generalizations correct? You? Because you say so?
advise? yes, you are free to offer without touching the cultural aspects......
That's exactly what you just did in your last sentence. America's gun problem IS a cultural problem.

expressing the typical west supremacy(when it doesn't even exist in the first place) and trying to portray your country as one with no loopholes in relative terms? absolutely no......
There really isn't any reason to get so defensive. The majority here aren't bashing India, they are just condemning the terrible events that happened.

When the school shooting took place out in the US recently, I talked about the USA's gun control problem, yet I am not an American citizen. Why? Because I like practically everyone else am saddened and angry about what happened.

If people didn't care there would be no discussion about it. There would be no news channels. There would be no news coverage in general covering this. I just feel terribly sorry for the poor girl and everyone associated with this crime.

kwilliams
Jan 2nd, 2013, 08:06 PM
I think the real question is why do you care so much about people's perceptions of India, if they are sooooo incorrect, Start da Game? Your reactions have been so strong and over the top.

There isn't all that much evidence that many of the opinions expressed in this thread (particularly tennisbum's original post) stem directly from Western superiority. Also, without knowing the background of each and every poster in this thread. America is quite a diverse country, for all you know, tennisbum could be a naturalised American who was born and raised in Belarus, Botswana or Bolivia and may not even identify as a "westerner." I certainly don't think many people in this thread have agendas and "want to piss off Indian posters." What would be the motivation for that? Also, are any other Indian posters really pissed off that people care so much about this tragedy?


Yes, people have their reservations about the caste system, arranged marriages and some other issues but most know that India is an extremely diverse country that has changed a lot and continues to change. I think most people would admit that they don't know enough about India to really pass any strongly held views. I can't understand why you brought up the incest thing and said that you wouldn't assume that each family has one member who would commit incest. Has someone implied that rape is that widespread in India that each family would have a rapist among them!? I don't think so.

You seem to be very sensitive about your country. It's great that you seem to love India so much but you don't need to worry so much about people hating it or seeing it as backward or whatever you perceive to be going on in this thread. I think India is pretty well-regarded.

mykarma
Jan 2nd, 2013, 08:16 PM
Insularity?In this thread? I'm pretty much open about discussing various aspects of my country within my experience.
You are welcome to have a deeper analyis. Who is stopping you?
Yes, go on and accuse me of saying 'plz don't discuss' when for the record I've been the only Indian poster who has been forthcoming about discussing this tragedy and its aspects.
That is unacceptable to me. You have successfully managed to piss me off, after YOU PM'ed me about this thread.
I appreciate your insight.

mykarma
Jan 2nd, 2013, 08:34 PM
Superb post, and I certainly "harp on" how the poor are mistreated around the world, including in the US. Anyhow, neither tennisbum nor I would disagree with you that rape is a big problem in the US (and elsewhere).

This thread got derailed with a knee-jerk defensive reaction by Start da Game, with Ashi surprisingly seeming to second that reaction. I say surprising as Ashi has often shown herself 2B superbly intelligent, and could have written an eloquent balanced analysis, as you did here. Instead she defended SDG's insularity (with weak stuff like non-Indians seeing her ppl as a bunch of snake-charmers, etc) which I've never seen happen on this board.

I still think ppl like Ashi (or you) would make good members of the Lok Sabha, especially if (her) panning the idea ITT means she'd go there not giving a FF if she was re-elected or not. (Yes, the US Congress could use ppl who would rather lose than whore out, too). Anyhow, here's a Reuters article (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/01/01/uk-india-rape-politics-idUKBRE90009L20130101) from yesterday that sheds some interesting light on things.

BTW (as Ashi used that irrelevant "but you PM'd me about this thread" dodge) I wish to note what I essentially said: that IF I raised the matter of sex-selection abortion, I expected "pro-choice absolutists" to jump on me.

Now its out there as A factor in India's "rape epidemic", including in major world media, so the PC types who act like any infringement on their sacrosanct word "choice" is verbotten can deal with the simple math: if any country skews the gender balance by misusing technologies like amniocentesis to facilitate backwards traditions like "only sons can provide for us", more young men will be rapists than would be otherwise. :shrug:
*JR* why you coming after Ashi like that just because he disagreed with you in one of your posts? I mean really stop starting shit, he/she has been really fair and insightful on this topic. If you like Balava's post just compliment him/her without using his post to come after someone else. GEEZ!!!

*JR*
Jan 2nd, 2013, 10:16 PM
*JR* why you coming after Ashi like that just because he disagreed with you in one of your posts? I mean really stop starting shit, he/she has been really fair and insightful on this topic. If you like Balava's post just compliment him/her without using his post to come after someone else. GEEZ!!!

Hmmm, I said in the post you cited that I still think Ashi would be an asset to her country's Parliament, this spat notwithstanding. I still feel that she's a person of great ability, who unfortunately chose 2B an apologist for Start da Game's nutty "lectures" ITT, on the subject of what was proper for non-Indians to discuss. So we had a little tiff, no big deal. :shrug: For example, you and I both watch American football, and have seen (very good) NFL quarterbacks sometimes scold their own (very good) receivers, and vice versa.



NDTV is a big bogus and corrupt channel. Their investments are a sham (illegally routed through Mauritius but escaped), their Chief Editor is a big scam (involved in a huge 2G power brokering scandal but got away). Most national channels are either sold out and/or siding with the Govt. This is quite known to many Indians. Point is, there was a much bigger protests against corruption starting from late 2011 to late 2012. Most channels have played down the protests, tarnished the protestors, politicized the cause and what not.

No major network is perfect. For example, the leading left-of-center cable news channel in the United States is MSNBC. As Microsoft has almost no editorial role, its the cable news outlet of NBC; which is a subsidiary of General Electric. So there's one set of issues MSNBC's usually aggressive hosts largely ignore: anything nuclear (be it power generation or weapons). I find The Big Fight debate show on NDTV interesting, but that doesn't mean host (and CEO) Vikram Chandra is necessarily a future Saint, or should be so judged.

mykarma
Jan 2nd, 2013, 10:26 PM
i am done with this thread......i no longer want to discuss with people with agendas and whose motive is just to piss off indian posters......

enjoy your continual attacks on india and get a kick out of it......i can only pity such people because there must be most things wrong with their own nations, for them to be having to exhibit uninvited interest on low points of other countries in order to self-justify their own sustenance in their respective countries......

Sounds like a good idea.

mykarma
Jan 2nd, 2013, 10:32 PM
Hmmm, I said in the post you cited that I still think Ashi would be an asset to her country's Parliament, this spat notwithstanding. I still feel that she's a person of great ability, who unfortunately chose 2B an apologist for Start da Game's nutty "lectures" ITT, on the subject of what was proper for non-Indians to discuss. So we had a little tiff, no big deal. :shrug: For example, you and I both watch American football, and have seen (very good) NFL quarterbacks sometimes scold their own (very good) receivers, and vice versa.



No major network is perfect. For example, the leading left-of-center cable news channel in the United States is MSNBC. As Microsoft has almost no editorial role, its the cable news outlet of NBC; which is a subsidiary of General Electric. So there's one set of issues MSNBC's usually aggressive hosts largely ignore: anything nuclear (be it power generation or weapons). I find The Big Fight debate show on NDTV interesting, but that doesn't mean host (and CEO) Vikram Chandra is necessarily a future Saint, or should be so judged.
I mean really. :rolleyes:

mykarma
Jan 2nd, 2013, 11:42 PM
You make personal attacks on posters who disagree with you all the time :shrug:
You mean personal attacks like I think you're a sicko?

Lin Lin
Jan 3rd, 2013, 12:05 AM
Poor girl:sad:,I hope women could get much more protection in India:)

Lin Lin
Jan 3rd, 2013, 12:05 AM
Poor girl:sad:,I hope women could get much more protection in India:)

JN
Jan 3rd, 2013, 12:07 AM
"Without touching the cultural aspects"? You mean like ppl being burned to death for marrying someone from the wrong caste? Or do you "only" mean the killing of female babies (for no reason other than gender) both B4 and after birth? :scratch: Maybe both? :shrug:

By that fucked up "logic", white South Africans could have said the same thing about apartheid, the pre-1865 US about slavery, Nazi Germany about the Jewish Laws, etc. :weirdo: Go start your own fucking board, and you can tell ppl "who can discuss what". :spit:

That's rich coming from TF's #1 meddlesome battle axe. :spit: indeed.

HippityHop
Jan 3rd, 2013, 03:36 AM
^^

it is our problem, not yours.......you have your own problems to look at......first take care of them COMPLETELY, then only you qualify for offering suggestions to foreign countries......

now why i poked my nose in a topic like the US gun law is because it is seriously affecting my people as well.......that is all i am saying......

advise? yes, you are free to offer without touching the cultural aspects......

expressing the typical west supremacy(when it doesn't even exist in the first place) and trying to portray your country as one with no loopholes in relative terms? absolutely no......

I call bullshit. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

tennisbum79
Jan 3rd, 2013, 04:13 AM
Ashi, I've enjoyed your insights in this topic. I understand that you wish to defend your country. I never meant to diss India. I see these protests as a good sign. You can feel proud of everyone who's standing up now, who's demanding change. That's a positive thing.

....


I was surprised to find, even in this thread, the very mentality that your fellow countrywomen are protesting against. When I saw the picture on CNN of women holding up the sign "don't tell your daughters not to go, tell your sons to behave themselves", I immediately want to post it here but someone else had already beaten me to it.

I believe this is the post you are talking about.

http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=22655476&postcount=132

tennisbum79
Jan 3rd, 2013, 04:36 AM
Sounds like a good idea.

I call bullshit. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

It was long overdue for Start Da Game to get out of this thread.


I don't why, but for some reason, he had convinced himself he was making headway.

He actually believes he would be successful in stopping or discouraging non-Indians from posting in this thread.
For him, anyone critical of Indian institutions (politicians , law enforcement, judicial system) for not taking the crime of sexual violence against women seriously, was really on a mission to smear India and its people; show India in a bad light.


And that was unacceptable to him. He even asserted non-Indians were not qualified to comment on the matter and were not invited.
Adding, India is beyond the understanding of non-Indians, it is too complex for them.


He finally gave up when he realized it wasn't just I and a couple of posters who find his comments nonsensical, but as more posters discover the thread and read his posts, without exception, each was shocked by his comments and the vitriol in them in light of thread subject matter.

Lin Lin
Jan 3rd, 2013, 04:41 AM
Watching:)

tennisbum79
Jan 3rd, 2013, 05:41 AM
It's nothing to do with pointing fingers or my pride. I stated the global reality. Perhaps you should go to FBI website and check the stats or go to UN website and check on rapes committed in countries in terms of per-capita. Indian stats are not high (1.6 per 100,000) when compared to volume of cases in many developed nations. But still over 26,000 (2011) number here is completely unacceptable. Do you want me to quote the US numbers? (it's more than three times).
You still don't get it, this is not about the USA. It about India, specifically the crime of rape, sexual violence in this particular context.
I don't know of any Americans in this discussion or elsewhere who has argued there is no rape in our country. It is how you deal with it which is on trial here.

As I told Start Da game when he asked me if I wanted more stats, I responded he could do as he wishes


The question before us is. Why is it that this crime of rape, sexual violence against women, is not taken seriously in India?
That also seems to be the question the demonstrators, men and women, are asking.
The answer to this question does not lie in the FBI statistics. That is just a diversion tactic that does not move the discussion forward.


You know very well, that there have been several discussions about US and its shortcoming on this forum, and anybody, including non-Americans, can participate.

Regarding the crime of rape, there was a time in this history this country ,the USA, where rape was not taken seriously; it took people of good will to tell to their elected officials, the law enforcement, that it was not acceptable.
It take demonstrations, civil right groups organizing, community organizations to convince hearts and mind of people who were previously indifferent.

Sam L
Jan 3rd, 2013, 06:55 AM
What we should really be talking about is the social and economic conditions that led to this rape and other rapes. I think Ashi(?) mentioned that these men were from the slums and had little going for them. They were unlikely to get wives or regular jobs. These are the issues we should be talking about rather than something like "the culture that produces this violence..." Because there is nothing wrong with Indian culture. There is something wrong with Indian society right now due to the social and economic conditions that are in the country right now. So instead of talking about this, if westerners are saying that somehow it's Indian culture that's allowed this to happen then it's pretty insulting.

But of course, people don't want to talk about root causes, it's all about sensationalist politics when something like this happens and then it's forgotten.

I also find it insulting that this is compared to something like gun shootings in US. Because this is a result of deep social and economic problems not a result of 50% of the citizens deciding "Hey I want to have a gun". It's not easily solved.

tammywilson52
Jan 3rd, 2013, 12:41 PM
I think this kind of things or incidence happens in India not because of their culture and social and economic condition but the cheap tendency or mentality of some people over there about a women or a girl.

mykarma
Jan 3rd, 2013, 02:59 PM
What we should really be talking about is the social and economic conditions that led to this rape and other rapes. I think Ashi(?) mentioned that these men were from the slums and had little going for them. They were unlikely to get wives or regular jobs. These are the issues we should be talking about rather than something like "the culture that produces this violence..." Because there is nothing wrong with Indian culture. There is something wrong with Indian society right now due to the social and economic conditions that are in the country right now. So instead of talking about this, if westerners are saying that somehow it's Indian culture that's allowed this to happen then it's pretty insulting.

But of course, people don't want to talk about root causes, it's all about sensationalist politics when something like this happens and then it's forgotten.

I also find it insulting that this is compared to something like gun shootings in US. Because this is a result of deep social and economic problems not a result of 50% of the citizens deciding "Hey I want to have a gun". It's not easily solved.
First of all you can't believe that only men from the slums abuse women in a culture where women are afraid to report rapes to the authorities and secondly not talking about these atrocities won't change the poverty in India. I'm just happy that the people of India have had enough and are letting their government and the world know they've had enough and aren't taking it anymore.

Miss Atomic Bomb
Jan 3rd, 2013, 05:15 PM
Wow :help: Some of the people in this thread as well as the ones out there are all just too busy with their own agendas, instead of focusing on whats important and right.

Disgusting to see some people trying to sweep this under the rug, point fingers at the short-comings of other countries to defend their own, use stereotypes to attack a culture, use culture as a defense for repressive and backward practices and present their narrow, ignorant views as facts. What the heck?

Not even going to bother with the 'why do women even need to go out at night' comments. Disturbing.

tennisbum79
Jan 4th, 2013, 01:00 AM
What we should really be talking about is the social and economic conditions that led to this rape and other rapes. I think Ashi(?) mentioned that these men were from the slums and had little going for them. They were unlikely to get wives or regular jobs. These are the issues we should be talking about rather than something like "the culture that produces this violence..." Because there is nothing wrong with Indian culture. There is something wrong with Indian society right now due to the social and economic conditions that are in the country right now. So instead of talking about this, if westerners are saying that somehow it's Indian culture that's allowed this to happen then it's pretty insulting.

But of course, people don't want to talk about root causes, it's all about sensationalist politics when something like this happens and then it's forgotten.

I also find it insulting that this is compared to something like gun shootings in US. Because this is a result of deep social and economic problems not a result of 50% of the citizens deciding "Hey I want to have a gun". It's not easily solved.


Look, this is not exclusive to people coming from the slums.
There have been cases of politicians and law enforcement officials, who are supposed to protect women against crime of rape, who have themselves committed rape and gotten away with it; some of the victims were under age girls.


So I object trying to blaming this on the slum.


The bottom line is, the crime of rape needs to be taken seriously, by government officials, law enforcement, the judicial system.
The demonstrators are demanding that.


Although some in this thread have dismissed the demonstration as en exercise in emotional masturbation, they have already accomplished a lot by awakening ordinary Indians to the horror of this crime and sent stern warning to politicians an law enforcement that Indian people can no longer tolerate the status quo.

This is an organic ,spontaneous movement of young men and women. Hope they keep the presume on.

Start da Game
Jan 4th, 2013, 04:58 AM
For all the attention the current situation in India is getting, people forget that the West is nowhere near the ideal. Thousands of these kinds of cases happen every year and receive no attention whatsoever.

exactly......with all the attention the latest incident in india is getting, people like tennisbum and jr want people to believe that the situation serves as a proof of intolerance in india and how far the country still needs to go......it is as if they are alien to rapes in their own country......

what makes me say all this is that they are in no position to say that when far more worse assaults are happening on all sexes in their own country.......

blindly making blanket statements like "women should be able to freak out all alone in the night" is not correct.......that may suit the women in the west as they maybe single for most parts of their lives and feel the need to do whatever they want being alone......that's when i talked about the differences of cultures......

tennisbum and jr turned a blind eye to it and kept pointing at the incident and the outrage in india......jr went as far as taking one or two disastrous incidents, generalized them and asked me if that's what i meant by culture......

their posts reflect nothing but mean agenda......

Lin Lin
Jan 4th, 2013, 05:01 AM
How is the life in a slum?It's always curious for me.

wild.river
Jan 4th, 2013, 05:17 AM
my mom visited a couple of slums in new delhi in the 90s. when this story came out, she said that she wasn't shocked. according to her, men in slums are raised like "animals"...you have to be to survive as the lowest denominator in a country of over 1 billion. and the "tough at all cost" mentality can translate into behavior such as this as adults.
(obviously that's a generalization, since there are plenty of moral and decent people in slums as well)
sam l is pretty spot on, imo, about the socioeconomic problems plaguing india that led to this.

Ashi
Jan 4th, 2013, 06:33 AM
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/conquering-the-fear-of-the-setting-sun/article4269936.ece?homepage=true (http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/conquering-the-fear-of-the-setting-sun/article4269936.ece?homepage=true)

Conquering the fear of the setting sun

Ravinder Kaur



http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/01319/04th_edpage_sketch_1319883e.jpg


TOPICS

The fight against rape (http://www.thehindu.com/system/topicRoot/The_fight_against_rape/) Delhi (http://www.thehindu.com/topics/?categoryId=117)New Delhi (http://www.thehindu.com/topics/?categoryId=118)
crime (http://www.thehindu.com/topics/?categoryId=608)sexual assault & rape (http://www.thehindu.com/topics/?categoryId=616)
social issue (http://www.thehindu.com/topics/?categoryId=1510)



The struggle for something as basic as equal access to public spaces as men at all hours is an everyday ordeal that women without resources feel more acutely

One of my distinct memories of growing up in Delhi involves the everyday spectre of a setting sun. My mother, worried about my safety when I started at university in the early 1990s, made me promise that I would always return home before dark. The home-before-sunset wasn’t a rule as such but a ‘safety measure’ that was followed by most of my female friends, acquaintances and neighbours. It was neither questioned nor explained. The routine was so deeply ingrained that rushing home before dark seemed like a matter of commonsense. For most of the female residents of the city, the dying glow in the sky marked the temporal limits before which to conclude their share of public activities. An elderly neighbour used to call it ‘Lakshman Rekha’ — the invisible boundary drawn by Rama’s brother Lakshman to protect Sita — which women must obey for their own safety. It was, as if, an informal state of curfew was imposed daily after sunset on one half of the population.
Curfew
The brutal gang rape and eventual murder of a young woman in Delhi two weeks ago have tragically fore-grounded this state of curfew and question of women’s full right to access public spaces. More importantly, it has disclosed not only the gendered but also the classed nature of denial of this right. The section of female population that is most dependent on public goods such as means of transport is also the more underprivileged and vulnerable one. These women can neither retreat into the increasingly privatised world of the mobile middle class — mobile in every sense of the word — nor can they ‘opt-out’ of public services whenever they choose to. At a moment when public participation and prominence of women are growing in a range of fields, it has become possible to imagine the irrelevance of moral codes of patriarchy, especially in urban contexts. But what is central to this imagination is the access to mobility, including mobility in its most mundane form: physical mobility that allows one to travel from one place to another. A large population of women who are outside the orbit of middle class affluence, experience the lack of safe means of transport as suspension of their public movement after dark. The curfew may or may not always result from imposition of patriarchal values, but it surely emanates from the lack of women’s safe access to public goods such as buses and local trains. Thus, far from being an elite preoccupation, the struggle for something as basic as having equal access to public spaces as men at all hours is an everyday struggle that women without resources feel more acutely than their privileged counterparts.
Class, gender and mobility
These connections between class, gender and mobility in public spaces became apparent in the death of the unnamed young woman. Even as outrage and swift condemnation of this crime became widespread, the social media was astir with a cacophony of voices. The expression of sympathy was mixed with questions as to why she was travelling late at night (even when escorted) while others flagged her ill-judgment at not having taken enough safety precautions in a city termed as the ‘rape capital.’ In some ways, these voices were echoing the logic of the perpetrators — a woman who has transgressed her boundaries and risked venturing into a space that she is not supposed to be in is a fair game. Even while empathising with her, some commentators on various online discussions could not understand why the couple chose to take a bus home at that late hour. The fact that most likely they did not have a choice did not even occur as a possibility. Probably the middle class readers of English language newspapers could not really imagine an evening out predicated on the logistics of unreliable means of public transport.
The moment the news of the gang rape was broken in the media was also the moment of, what we may call, ‘class confusion,’ among commentators, reporters and eventually protesters. The well meaning observers instantly identified them as belonging to the middle class and underscored that this atrocity may “happen to any of us.” In the absence of details, the markers that helped associate the couple with ‘us’ or the privileged sections of middle class probably were, one, the upscale cinema complex they had visited; two, the location of the bus stop in the heart of South Delhi from where they boarded the bus; and three, the very fact that the young couple had been on an ‘evening out’ seeking entertainment and pleasure. The everyday acts of consumption and pleasure-seeking in the city are what define this actual and aspirational class identity to some extent. The unnamed woman and her companion later turned out to belong to the aspiring section of society whose mobility depends on safe public services. The class confusion, however, did help turn personal empathy into public protests — the kind of public outpouring that remains missing in the rapes of tribals, Dalits and poor women.
The gang rape ultimately opened an almost alien world for the upwardly mobile middle class — a world where it is not possible to simply secede from public goods and services. The city is lived and experienced very differently by men and women, the privileged and the unprivileged. Yet the dominant narrative is woven around the middle class which is said to be the prime motor of growth in a post-reform nation that increasingly sees itself as a global player. The gains of economic liberalisation can be witnessed in new consumption patterns as well as in concrete forms of massive infrastructure building in urban centres. The cityscape itself has altered with new public spaces — shopping malls, multiplex cinemas, coffee shops — that primarily attract youth population. Even as the range and form of public spaces expand, the city itself has become more segregated than ever before. Increasingly, the affluent either inhabit ‘privatised’ realms of new gated colonies or enclose existing residential localities with security and entry restrictions. And all those who can afford tend to use private means of transport rather than public. The introduction of metro rail in Delhi has by no means diminished the status attached to the ownership of a private car.
Near-absence
It is in this new classed realm of public/private discrepancies that we need to address the old questions of gendered ‘curfews’ and the safety of women. In re-formed India, it is not female mobility which is under curfew as such, rather that of underprivileged women whose safe mobility remains at stake. Despite the initial middle class enthusiasm for the shiny metro, the primary users of public transport are largely those who lack resources to enter the private zones of mobility. The near absence of women in buses and metro becomes acutely visible at night time. The curfew — a voluntary imposition — comes into force in these public spaces where few remaining women passengers are either looked at with sympathy (encouraged to ‘hurry home’) or with intimidation. The city turns into an alienating, intimidating place particularly for those outside the comfort zone of private mobility.
Patriarchal values are reinforced by the state which often advises women to refrain from “risky behaviour” — of travelling after dark — for their own good. This ‘advice’ was most recently offered by a high ranking police officer who also suggested that women should not travel at night, and if they do, they arm themselves with chilli powder to combat potential criminals. The Chief Minister of Delhi, Sheila Dikshit, is also known for believing that women should not be so ‘adventurous’ so as to stay outside past midnight. In short, the government perpetuates the idea that the ‘outside’ is not a legitimate space for women to occupy.
The solution for women is obviously to not retreat but occupy the ‘outside’ if the fear of the setting sun is ever to be conquered. This involves as much demanding adequate lights, security in public spaces as challenging patriarchal values. And this also demands class solidarity from those women who have seceded into a privatised world of new India.
(Ravinder Kaur is Director, Centre of Global South Asian Studies, University of Copenhagen)

Ashi
Jan 4th, 2013, 06:44 AM
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/by-fielding-rape-accused-parties-are-abetting-crime/article4222945.ece

‘By fielding rape accused, parties are abetting crime’


Rape accused were given party ticket for six Parliamentary seats, 27 Assembly seats

With political parties in the last five years giving Lok Sabha election ticket to six persons and State election ticket to 27 persons, who declared that they were charged with rape — and six MLAs with rape cases now actually representing people in the Assemblies — a demand has been raised that the practice of fielding people with criminal backgrounds be stopped forthwith.
It was in the backdrop of the outrage over Sunday’s gang-rape in Delhi and at a time when Parliament was seized of the matter, that National Election Watch (NEW) and the Association for Democratic Reforms (ADR) “looked at the background of our lawmakers [MPs and MLAs] with respect to rape cases and other crimes against women based on their self-sworn affidavits.”
The national coordinator for NEW and ADR Anil Bairwal; founder member and former IIM Ahmedabad professor Jagdeep Chhokar; and member and IIM Bangalore professor Trilochan Sastry said they “found that there are several lawmakers who have similar cases pending against them as per their last affidavit declaration to the Election Commission of India.”
The group said that in the 2009 Lok Sabha elections, the political parties gave ticket to six persons who declared that they had been charged with rape. They included one each from the RPP, the Revolutionary Communist Party, the Bahujan Samaj Party and the Jharkhand Mukti Morcha and two Independents. During these polls, 34 other contestants declared that they had charges of crimes against women.
While Parliament is debating the issue, two of its members — one of the All India Anna Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam from Tamil Nadu and the other of the All India Trinamool Congress from West Bengal — have also declared that they face charges, such as cruelty and intent to outrage a woman’s modesty.
The situation in the State elections is even worse.
As per the report of NEW and the ADR, “six MLAs have declared that they have charges of rape against them in their sworn affidavits submitted with the Election Commission of India at the time of their election. Of these six MLAs with declared rape cases, three are of the Samajwadi Party from Uttar Pradesh; and one each is of the Bahujan Samaj Party, from U.P., of the Bharatiya Janata Party from Gujarat; and of the Telugu Desam Party from Andhra Pradesh.
Of the 27 candidates who have rape cases against them and were yet given party ticket for State elections, 10 were from Uttar Pradesh and five from Bihar.
Apart from these, the group said, “36 MLAs have declared that they have other charges of crimes against women such as outraging the modesty of a woman, assault, insulting the modesty of a woman” registered against them.
Of these, six are from the Congress, five from the BJP, and three from the Samajwadi Party. Incidentally, Uttar Pradesh has the maximum number of such MLAs at eight; followed by Orissa and West Bengal with seven MLAs each.
The group said “by giving ticket to candidates who have been charged with crimes against women especially rape, political parties have been in a way abetting circumstances that lead to such events that they so easily but vehemently condemn in Parliament.”
It has thus demanded that “candidates with a criminal background should be debarred from contesting elections” and “cases against MPs and MLAs should be fast-tracked and decided in a time-bound manner.”

Morning Morgan
Jan 4th, 2013, 08:35 AM
^^^

And your excessive use of ellipsis is a crime against humanity.......................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ................

Miranda
Jan 4th, 2013, 09:36 AM
shed tears whenever I heard about this brutal act, poor girl, may she rest in heaven for peace now :tears:

kwilliams
Jan 4th, 2013, 11:43 AM
blindly making blanket statements like "women should be able to freak out all alone in the night" is not correct.......that may suit the women in the west as they maybe single for most parts of their lives and feel the need to do whatever they want being alone......that's when i talked about the differences of cultures......


What? You think Indian women shouldn't go out alone at night?
Have you not seen images of the protesters in India. I think a significant number of Indian women feel that they should be able to go out at night. Why should a woman feel that she needs to stay in at night? Women should do whatever they like without having to fear violence, harassment or even judgement from anyone, male or female.

Also, women go out alone at night in many countries, not just in the west.

*JR*
Jan 4th, 2013, 02:52 PM
exactly......with all the attention the latest incident in india is getting, people like tennisbum and jr want people to believe that the situation serves as a proof of intolerance in india and how far the country still needs to go......it is as if they are alien to rapes in their own country......

what makes me say all this is that they are in no position to say that when far more worse assaults are happening on all sexes in their own country.......

blindly making blanket statements like "women should be able to freak out all alone in the night" is not correct.......that may suit the women in the west as they maybe single for most parts of their lives and feel the need to do whatever they want being alone......that's when i talked about the differences of cultures......

tennisbum and jr turned a blind eye to it and kept pointing at the incident and the outrage in india......jr went as far as taking one or two disastrous incidents, generalized them and asked me if that's what i meant by culture......

their posts reflect nothing but mean agenda......

Uh, tennisbum and I "turned a blind eye to" nothing in either case, which (as regards the one in India) seemed to drive you nuts. :shrug: Neither of us would ignore the contributing "cultural factors".... with more detail from me, ala sex selection abortion, and sometimes its "post-birth cousin", female infanticide.

Sure the PC thing is to only call rape a crime of violence and power, but it IS also about sexual gratification; so the "young female shortage" the above have created in large parts of India contribute to the rape stats. Those who refuse 2B silent about these "all too common" things are better friends of potential rape victims there than UR.

tennisbum and I have clear "post trails" here of bashing those elements of American culture that lead to things like school shootings and a host of other social ills. As debopero correctly noted, this should :shout: not be turned into a US vs. India thread. Many countries have serious ills, that others can criticize without being "haters".

Monzanator
Jan 4th, 2013, 03:58 PM
At least they have death penalty in India and since their law system doesn't seem as loop-holed as the American one they will probably be hanged sooner rather than later. They deserve nothing less IMO.

PhilePhile
Jan 4th, 2013, 09:25 PM
At least they have death penalty in India and since their law system doesn't seem as loop-holed as the American one they will probably be hanged sooner rather than later. They deserve nothing less IMO.

Not for 'rape' but possibly for murder. I don't think they will get the capital punishment (they would be 'dead men walking' in China at this moment though).

tennisbum79
Jan 4th, 2013, 11:26 PM
The Chief Minister name perfectly described what she is saying to women
From the article posted by Ashi

The Chief Minister of Delhi, Sheila Dikshit, is also known for believing that women should not be so ‘adventurous’ so as to stay outside past midnight. In short, the government perpetuates the idea that the ‘outside’ is not a legitimate space for women to occupy.


I totally agree, in fact I have been making this argument in this thread.
The Chief Minister should take note of this.

The solution for women is obviously to not retreat but occupy the ‘outside’ if the fear of the setting sun is ever to be conquered.
This involves as much demanding adequate lights, security in public spaces as challenging patriarchal values.
And this also demands class solidarity from those women who have seceded into a privatised world of new India.

tennisbum79
Jan 5th, 2013, 12:00 AM
For posters who were trying to pin the majority of rape on slums and the poors, here is politicians who just rape a woman.

CNN correspondent in India is reporting that, before the rape of the medical student that provoke the demonstrations, rapes by politician and law enforcement were always swept under the rug.

IN addition to intimidation by politicians and law enforcement officials, there is also a stigma associated with rape in the general population.
Hence, rape is under reported.


Indian politician accused of rape is publicly beaten and stripped by mob of angry women

Congress Party member Bikram Singh Brahma was beaten, slapped and had his shirt ripped off after being arrested and charged with rape, police said.



http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1233061.1357320296!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/article-india-0104.jpg
www.liveleak.com (http://www.liveleak.com)

Bikram Singh Brahma, a prominent Congress leader in Assam, was charged with rape and lashed publicly by angry women. His arrest came as five men in New Delhi were charged in a now infamous gang rape and murder.




As five men were formally charged in a New Delhi court with the gang rape and murder of a medical student, several angry women took justice into their own hands after another alleged assault about 1,200 miles away in India's Assam state.

Bikram Singh Brahma, a member of the Congress Party in Assam and president of a district Congress committee, was arrested Thursday and charged with rape, police said.
After word of the accusation got out, a group of women in Chirang district publicly slapped and beat the 54-year-old man, pulling off his shirt and bashing him repeatedly across the head. The lashing was caught on video by local media.

Brahma's car was also damaged, The Hindu newspaper r (http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/other-states/assam-congress-leader-arrested-for-rape/article4269410.ece)eported. (http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/other-states/assam-congress-leader-arrested-for-rape/article4269410.ece)

The mob justice in Assam came after days of nationwide protests demanding the government do more to protect women against sexual violence following the Dec. 16 gang rape of a 23-year-old woman on a bus in New Delhi. The victim died two weeks later, and five men face the death penalty for her murder.
A rape is reported in India every 20 minutes.


http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1233067!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/article-india4-0104.jpgwww.liveleak.com (http://www.liveleak.com)

Brahma was arrested after the woman’s husband filed a report with local police. Word spread to the town and the mob attack was caught on video.


Brahma was accused of attacking the woman Wednesday night while staying at her family's house, police said. Her husband allegedly walked in on the assault. "A rape has been committed and the accused has been arrested on rape charge," Inspector-General of Police G.P. Singh told The Hindu.

It was unclear how Brahma has responded to the accusations against him, but his son has accused the victim and her husband of criminal conspiracy and theft, Daily News India reported. (http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_assam-rape-congress-leader-brahma-remanded-to-judicial-custody_1785588)


Source: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/angry-female-mob-beat-indian-pol-rape-charge-article-1.1233074

Miranda
Jan 5th, 2013, 12:25 AM
these men are just horrible, animals are a lot better than them :rolleyes:

PhilePhile
Jan 5th, 2013, 01:44 AM
For posters who were trying to pin rape on slums and the poort, here is politican who just rape a woman.

CNN correspondent in India is reporting that, before the rape of the medical student that provoke the demonstration, rape by politician and law enforcement is always swept under the rug.

IN addition to intimidation by politicians and law enforcement officials, there is also a stigma associated with rape in the general population.
Hence, rape is under reported.


Bikram Singh Brahma is a poor example based on the reporting.

It looked like quite a few Indians became 'rape' experts overnight.

Lin Lin
Jan 5th, 2013, 03:01 AM
His boyfriend speaks out today:)

Lin Lin
Jan 5th, 2013, 03:01 AM
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific/view/1246097/1/.html

Ashi
Jan 5th, 2013, 04:58 AM
TLdh8RvpZ-Q
Exclusive interview with the only witness in the case. :sad: :sad:

mykarma
Jan 5th, 2013, 10:48 AM
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/conquering-the-fear-of-the-setting-sun/article4269936.ece?homepage=true (http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/conquering-the-fear-of-the-setting-sun/article4269936.ece?homepage=true)

Conquering the fear of the setting sun

Ravinder Kaur



http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/01319/04th_edpage_sketch_1319883e.jpg


TOPICS

The fight against rape (http://www.thehindu.com/system/topicRoot/The_fight_against_rape/) Delhi (http://www.thehindu.com/topics/?categoryId=117)New Delhi (http://www.thehindu.com/topics/?categoryId=118)
crime (http://www.thehindu.com/topics/?categoryId=608)sexual assault & rape (http://www.thehindu.com/topics/?categoryId=616)
social issue (http://www.thehindu.com/topics/?categoryId=1510)



The struggle for something as basic as equal access to public spaces as men at all hours is an everyday ordeal that women without resources feel more acutely

One of my distinct memories of growing up in Delhi involves the everyday spectre of a setting sun. My mother, worried about my safety when I started at university in the early 1990s, made me promise that I would always return home before dark. The home-before-sunset wasn’t a rule as such but a ‘safety measure’ that was followed by most of my female friends, acquaintances and neighbours. It was neither questioned nor explained. The routine was so deeply ingrained that rushing home before dark seemed like a matter of commonsense. For most of the female residents of the city, the dying glow in the sky marked the temporal limits before which to conclude their share of public activities. An elderly neighbour used to call it ‘Lakshman Rekha’ — the invisible boundary drawn by Rama’s brother Lakshman to protect Sita — which women must obey for their own safety. It was, as if, an informal state of curfew was imposed daily after sunset on one half of the population.
Curfew
The brutal gang rape and eventual murder of a young woman in Delhi two weeks ago have tragically fore-grounded this state of curfew and question of women’s full right to access public spaces. More importantly, it has disclosed not only the gendered but also the classed nature of denial of this right. The section of female population that is most dependent on public goods such as means of transport is also the more underprivileged and vulnerable one. These women can neither retreat into the increasingly privatised world of the mobile middle class — mobile in every sense of the word — nor can they ‘opt-out’ of public services whenever they choose to. At a moment when public participation and prominence of women are growing in a range of fields, it has become possible to imagine the irrelevance of moral codes of patriarchy, especially in urban contexts. But what is central to this imagination is the access to mobility, including mobility in its most mundane form: physical mobility that allows one to travel from one place to another. A large population of women who are outside the orbit of middle class affluence, experience the lack of safe means of transport as suspension of their public movement after dark. The curfew may or may not always result from imposition of patriarchal values, but it surely emanates from the lack of women’s safe access to public goods such as buses and local trains. Thus, far from being an elite preoccupation, the struggle for something as basic as having equal access to public spaces as men at all hours is an everyday struggle that women without resources feel more acutely than their privileged counterparts.
Class, gender and mobility
These connections between class, gender and mobility in public spaces became apparent in the death of the unnamed young woman. Even as outrage and swift condemnation of this crime became widespread, the social media was astir with a cacophony of voices. The expression of sympathy was mixed with questions as to why she was travelling late at night (even when escorted) while others flagged her ill-judgment at not having taken enough safety precautions in a city termed as the ‘rape capital.’ In some ways, these voices were echoing the logic of the perpetrators — a woman who has transgressed her boundaries and risked venturing into a space that she is not supposed to be in is a fair game. Even while empathising with her, some commentators on various online discussions could not understand why the couple chose to take a bus home at that late hour. The fact that most likely they did not have a choice did not even occur as a possibility. Probably the middle class readers of English language newspapers could not really imagine an evening out predicated on the logistics of unreliable means of public transport.
The moment the news of the gang rape was broken in the media was also the moment of, what we may call, ‘class confusion,’ among commentators, reporters and eventually protesters. The well meaning observers instantly identified them as belonging to the middle class and underscored that this atrocity may “happen to any of us.” In the absence of details, the markers that helped associate the couple with ‘us’ or the privileged sections of middle class probably were, one, the upscale cinema complex they had visited; two, the location of the bus stop in the heart of South Delhi from where they boarded the bus; and three, the very fact that the young couple had been on an ‘evening out’ seeking entertainment and pleasure. The everyday acts of consumption and pleasure-seeking in the city are what define this actual and aspirational class identity to some extent. The unnamed woman and her companion later turned out to belong to the aspiring section of society whose mobility depends on safe public services. The class confusion, however, did help turn personal empathy into public protests — the kind of public outpouring that remains missing in the rapes of tribals, Dalits and poor women.
The gang rape ultimately opened an almost alien world for the upwardly mobile middle class — a world where it is not possible to simply secede from public goods and services. The city is lived and experienced very differently by men and women, the privileged and the unprivileged. Yet the dominant narrative is woven around the middle class which is said to be the prime motor of growth in a post-reform nation that increasingly sees itself as a global player. The gains of economic liberalisation can be witnessed in new consumption patterns as well as in concrete forms of massive infrastructure building in urban centres. The cityscape itself has altered with new public spaces — shopping malls, multiplex cinemas, coffee shops — that primarily attract youth population. Even as the range and form of public spaces expand, the city itself has become more segregated than ever before. Increasingly, the affluent either inhabit ‘privatised’ realms of new gated colonies or enclose existing residential localities with security and entry restrictions. And all those who can afford tend to use private means of transport rather than public. The introduction of metro rail in Delhi has by no means diminished the status attached to the ownership of a private car.
Near-absence
It is in this new classed realm of public/private discrepancies that we need to address the old questions of gendered ‘curfews’ and the safety of women. In re-formed India, it is not female mobility which is under curfew as such, rather that of underprivileged women whose safe mobility remains at stake. Despite the initial middle class enthusiasm for the shiny metro, the primary users of public transport are largely those who lack resources to enter the private zones of mobility. The near absence of women in buses and metro becomes acutely visible at night time. The curfew — a voluntary imposition — comes into force in these public spaces where few remaining women passengers are either looked at with sympathy (encouraged to ‘hurry home’) or with intimidation. The city turns into an alienating, intimidating place particularly for those outside the comfort zone of private mobility.
Patriarchal values are reinforced by the state which often advises women to refrain from “risky behaviour” — of travelling after dark — for their own good. This ‘advice’ was most recently offered by a high ranking police officer who also suggested that women should not travel at night, and if they do, they arm themselves with chilli powder to combat potential criminals. The Chief Minister of Delhi, Sheila Dikshit, is also known for believing that women should not be so ‘adventurous’ so as to stay outside past midnight. In short, the government perpetuates the idea that the ‘outside’ is not a legitimate space for women to occupy.
The solution for women is obviously to not retreat but occupy the ‘outside’ if the fear of the setting sun is ever to be conquered. This involves as much demanding adequate lights, security in public spaces as challenging patriarchal values. And this also demands class solidarity from those women who have seceded into a privatised world of new India.
(Ravinder Kaur is Director, Centre of Global South Asian Studies, University of Copenhagen)
This is so sad that I had to hold back the tears. Thank you Ravi for bringing this to the forefront so now just maybe things can begin to change for the safety of these women.

mykarma
Jan 5th, 2013, 10:56 AM
For posters who were trying to pin the majority of rape on slums and the poors, here is politicians who just rape a woman.

CNN correspondent in India is reporting that, before the rape of the medical student that provoke the demonstrations, rapes by politician and law enforcement were always swept under the rug.

IN addition to intimidation by politicians and law enforcement officials, there is also a stigma associated with rape in the general population.
Hence, rape is under reported.
Rape seems to be a sport in India. So sad this woman went through this but perhaps her death will not be in vain if this is what was needed to make a change.

mykarma
Jan 5th, 2013, 10:59 AM
Companion of India rape victim: Begged attackers to stop
From Aliza Kassim, CNN
updated 11:06 PM EST, Fri January 4, 2013
Watch this video
Friend: I begged them to leave her
STORY HIGHLIGHTS

"I begged them again and again to leave her," friend says of attackers
His companion died nearly two weeks later
Interior minister orders 10 female constables at every Delhi police station

(CNN) -- New details emerged Friday of the fatal gang rape of a 23-year-old student in New Delhi from a male friend, who detailed the incident as horrific and their subsequent treatment as callous.

The 28-year-old man, who asked not to be identified, said he and the young woman had watched a movie December 16, and then boarded a private bus to return to her home in a New Delhi suburb.

The driver made lewd remarks and five other men taunted the couple and locked the doors, he said in a telephone interview with Agence France-Presse from a town in Uttar Pradesh state.

"They hit me with a small stick and dragged my friend to a seat near the driver's cabin," the man said. Then the "driver and the other men raped my friend and hit her in the worst possible ways in the most private parts of her body."

The driver used an iron bar in the attack, he told the news agency. The friend said he suffered a broken leg.
Remembering New Delhi gang-rape victim
Villagers beat politician accused of rape
India's social problems
Rape investigations in India
Rape victim's father: Hang assailants

"The cruelty I saw should not be seen ever. I tried to fight against the men but later I begged them again and again to leave her," he said.

In an interview with Reuters, the man said their abductors drove the couple throughout the city for about two hours before dropping them below an overpass; he was unable to stand and had no clothes.

"Three-wheeler taxis would slow down, take a look at us and move on," he said. "So would cars and motorcycles. We got no help for nearly 20 or 25 minutes."

When three police vehicles finally did show up, he said, "they couldn't decide among themselves which police precinct has jurisdiction."

Throughout, his friend was bleeding profusely, he said.

"We need change in every area," the companion said.

The attack, which resulted in the woman's death on December 29, has prompted widespread debate over the way the country handles sexual assaults and the treatment of women in India. Numerous protests have taken place and laws have been proposed.

India's interior minister has ordered New Delhi police stations to increase the number of women officers to facilitate the handling of complaints from women.

Interior Minister Sushil Kumar Shinde said Friday that each police station in Delhi should have 10 women constables and two women subinspectors.

Indian rape debate: Why death penalty is no solution

"We will be posting these women very soon, according to this order, by diverting staff from other places and making them available in Delhi," police spokesman Rajan Bhagat said. At present, women comprise 7% of police forces, he said.

Candidates will be recruited within four months, and training will take an additional nine months, he said.

Bhagat denied that the directive was issued solely because of the rape, but said it is aimed at helping women.

Read more: The perils of being a woman in India

"We need overall more women in the police station as other women feel more comfortable with female officers," he said. "If all women complaints are attended to promptly, situations like that of the gang-raped medical student may have been avoided."

The interior minister said he is working with security officials to strengthen laws regarding rape and assault.

In the state of Haryana, about 80 miles northwest of Delhi, officials plan to publicize the profiles of rapists.

The state will publish the names, addresses and case numbers of convicted rapists on a website.

"In doing so, we hope to curb crime against women," said Laik Ram Dabbas, director of the state crime records bureau.

The website could be active this month, Dabbas said.

"By making these names and profiles public, we think crime can be curbed, as in India people are sensitive to public embarrassment," Dabbas said. "Once the public is aware of such people roaming around their area, they will become more careful."

The men accused in the gang rape that led to the death of the 23-year-old Indian woman were charged Thursday in a New Delhi court with murder, rape and kidnapping.

mykarma
Jan 5th, 2013, 11:01 AM
Bikram Singh Brahma is a poor example based on the reporting.

It looked like quite a few Indians became 'rape' experts overnight.
Please explain.

mystic ice cube
Jan 5th, 2013, 02:36 PM
These guys do not deserve capital punishment, it's too good for them. They deserve to rot away in the most gruesome prison for the rest of their pathetic lives.

tennisbum79
Jan 5th, 2013, 03:19 PM
Bikram Singh Brahma is a poor example based on the reporting.

It looked like quite a few Indians became 'rape' experts overnight.
Do you mind expanding a little, I don't get your point.

PhilePhile
Jan 5th, 2013, 09:36 PM
Please explain.

Do you mind expanding a little, I don't get your point.


I think sentimentalism or possibly something else had adversely impact the mental faculty to think critically (read the article in post #206?).

tennisbum79
Jan 5th, 2013, 09:56 PM
I think sentimentalism or possibly something else had adversely impact the mental faculty to think critically (read the article in post #206?).
I posted and just re-read the article you are referring to
Are you taking issue because the accused has not confessed/admitted and deny the accusation through his son?
Or with the mob justice aspect of it?On 1: it is well known that Indian politicians have routinely denied or suppressed accusation of rape and/or intimidated the victim.

So the fact that he denies the accusation does not in itself mean that should not be taken with high dosage of skepticism.


On 2, Although I do neither condone nor justify the crowd reaction, you can understand it as an expression of frustration after so many years cover up and crime not being taken seriously. Crowd had never thought critically, anywhere in the word. Mind you, this was spontaneous.
And this is a normal human reaction after years of pent up anger and frustration.
Your suggestion that their mentally faculty are impaired or diminished is insulting.




I can't conclude from this that the people are thinking of themselves as rape expert.


I Ohio USA, , we currently have demonstrations against a rape (by popular football players) case that took place in a High School, and the powerful coach is standing behind his football players

mykarma
Jan 5th, 2013, 10:01 PM
I think sentimentalism or possibly something else had adversely impact the mental faculty to think critically (read the article in post #206?).

Perhaps you're correct so humor me and explain what you meant if you don't mind.

*JR*
Jan 6th, 2013, 02:29 AM
Victim of Indian gang-rape is named

Student's father says he wants her name known, to give courage to other women

Tom Foot
Sunday 06 January 2013

The young Delhi student who was gang-raped and beaten and who subsequently died from her injuries was named late last night by her father as Jyoti Singh Pandev.

Badri Singh Pandey, in an interview with a Sunday newspaper, said he wanted the world to know her real name to give rape survivors courage.

The 53-year-old said: "My daughter didn't do anything wrong. She died while protecting herself. I am proud of her. Revealing her name will give courage to other women who have survived these attacks. They will find strength from my daughter."

Indian law prohibits naming a rape victim unless she authorises it or, if she is dead, her family agrees to it.

More: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/victim-of-indian-gangrape-is-named-8439740.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article8439859.ece/ALTERNATES/w460/india-ap.jpg

bulava
Jan 6th, 2013, 10:35 AM
Superb post, and I certainly "harp on" how the poor are mistreated around the world, including in the US. Anyhow, neither tennisbum nor I would disagree with you that rape is a big problem in the US (and elsewhere).

I don't know about you but I see plenty of people like tennisbum who are driven by their own agendas or just to show big nations (India/China/Russia etc) in poor light by ignoring their own backyards. Example, read this one:

What the International Community Can Do to Support the Protest Against the Delhi Gang Rape:
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/women/news/2012/12/21/48756/what-the-international-community-can-do-to-support-the-protest-against-the-delhi-gang-rape/

IMO they don't have any locus standi because this problem NOT yet brought down considerably in many 'International' countries :confused:

This happens most of the times in the US/UK etc (most media such as BBC contribute in a good way to do very nice propaganda crap. Example, there was a program about Indian roads. One lady started blabbering that "Indians don't know how to drive" etc. So I wrote to her asking why 3000+ people/year are still dying on the the UK roads considering its developed status? She didn't reply).


I still think ppl like Ashi (or you) would make good members of the Lok Sabha, especially if (her) panning the idea ITT means she'd go there not giving a FF if she was re-elected or not. (Yes, the US Congress could use ppl who would rather lose than whore out, too). Anyhow, here's a Reuters article (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/01/01/uk-india-rape-politics-idUKBRE90009L20130101) from yesterday that sheds some interesting light on things.

Diving into Politics is another topic to dwell on w.r.t this thread's scope.

However, I can clearly state (even with my limited experience since 2007) that one doesn't have to become a Politician to care about others. Trust me it's not a pre-requisite if one is *committed* enough, armed with small ideas and willing to share his/her little time and money. Or just team up with like-minded pals/contacts to do something. I do it every year in small numbers, this is for entire 2012 year:

a) took care of 23 old couples at two places (thrown out by children)
b) 30 farmers to come of their debt and start again (after 'Sandy' passed, few South Indian states battered by a cyclone - but most morons in the national TV channels were busy covering the US/Obama's Election. I never saw such a stupidity**)
c) helped a class (58 girls/boys) to pay for their fee/books/food at a children school/hostel
d) 15 kids got operated (born with heart disease).

And a few more. I already planned to do a little more in 2013...

If people pool up and contribute, many problems on this planet could be significantly brought down. So you see I don't believe in these TV channels sensational debates, blame games, International prejudice etc. I believe in "Just Do It" tag very much.

**Many channels were like that until a few days ago. But some like-minded people like me wrote to them about the people who are dying like pests due to severe winter. So few channels started covering about them. Otherwise? Same nonsense. They are obsessed with this rape, most national channels, covering almost 24x7 since 4 weeks as if no other huge problems exist in India.

Off topic: Does anyone know how many people/day are dying out of hunger? The Supreme Court of India directed the elected morons to open up the Food Corporation of India go downs so that poor people could be fed instead of getting rotten or going to rodents. Why are they doing? NOTHING. This is one of the reasons why whopping 1.6 million children dead in 2011 (big chunk out of them are due to malnutrition). Who's responsible for this number?

bulava
Jan 6th, 2013, 11:21 AM
my mom visited a couple of slums in new delhi in the 90s. when this story came out, she said that she wasn't shocked. according to her, men in slums are raised like "animals"...

I don't believe in that "animals" theory because Bombay has bigger slums. Rape stats are less (218 cases) compared to Delhi (568 cases) in 2011. Having said, I understood one critical element very clearly.

Many people are badly affected (on multiple parameters) due to HUNGER. Economic/Income disparity comes next. Other parameters such as Jealousy, Hatred, Revenge etc come into play (most acid attack or young rape victims).

Again, there are exceptions. We see animals in the Women too. Read this:

Mother/Daughter kill stockbroker, cut him into 17 pieces (plot for his 17-crore property aka $3.2 million)!!
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-12-24/ahmedabad/35991503_1_ahmedabad-woman-daughter-shah-first

That's why I profess impartial punishment for either sex.

you have to be to survive as the lowest denominator in a country of over 1 billion. and the "tough at all cost" mentality can translate into behavior such as this as adults.

This opens up a huge picture. The real India, more than 70% living in semi-urban and rural areas. I say this because there are many poor people living in India in rural/tribal areas where living conditions are far more worse than Metro slum areas. Many Indians living in cities have no idea about them. Example, they literally live with almost 18 hour power cuts compared to 2-4 hours in cities. Many villages have NO power at all let alone pondering about what they eat/drink/wear. See this pic:

http://i46.tinypic.com/mrtlzo.jpg

This is exactly why I recruit some good numbers (~300 out of 1150 at two locations) from villages and tribal regions. Most of them work in packing section etc. Point is, moving them away from hunger-driven mad and unpredictable life.

I ask everyone here:

Try this experiment. Eat only ONCE per day (not heavy), and continue this trend for a week or 10 days. Then observe the changes inside you. Such things can't be written, only be felt.

Ashi
Jan 6th, 2013, 11:47 AM
Personally, in general I think Indians are obsessed with what others think about them(as seen in this thread ;) ). 'Reputation', 'Honour', 'Respect', 'Position' etc etc are bandied about like there's no tomorrow. Don't do this/ Don't do that your/family's reputation is at stake. It becomes a part of your psyche.
This is a major reason for unreporting of rape and believe it or not female infanticide. Your manhood is in question if you haven't fathered a son.
Women are considered 'Paraya Dhan'....treasure which is to be given away...so why invest in them anyway. This is how least common denominator think.
Education is key here.

kwilliams
Jan 6th, 2013, 01:24 PM
Victim of Indian gang-rape is named

Student's father says he wants her name known, to give courage to other women

Tom Foot
Sunday 06 January 2013

The young Delhi student who was gang-raped and beaten and who subsequently died from her injuries was named late last night by her father as Jyoti Singh Pandev.

Badri Singh Pandey, in an interview with a Sunday newspaper, said he wanted the world to know her real name to give rape survivors courage.

The 53-year-old said: "My daughter didn't do anything wrong. She died while protecting herself. I am proud of her. Revealing her name will give courage to other women who have survived these attacks. They will find strength from my daughter."

Indian law prohibits naming a rape victim unless she authorises it or, if she is dead, her family agrees to it.

More: http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article8439859.ece/ALTERNATES/w460/india-ap.jpg

:sad: That's heartbreaking.

Start da Game
Jan 6th, 2013, 03:44 PM
What? You think Indian women shouldn't go out alone at night?
Have you not seen images of the protesters in India. I think a significant number of Indian women feel that they should be able to go out at night. Why should a woman feel that she needs to stay in at night? Women should do whatever they like without having to fear violence, harassment or even judgement from anyone, male or female.

Also, women go out alone at night in many countries, not just in the west.

that's why rapes happen.......men are stronger than women......that is simply the law of nature.......you or i cannot change it......

a few hundreds of women =/= india......those few hundreds are not from traditional background and are highly influenced by other cultures......when will you guys stop generalizing odd incidents and magnifying certain happenings?

Start da Game
Jan 6th, 2013, 03:50 PM
Uh, tennisbum and I "turned a blind eye to" nothing in either case, which (as regards the one in India) seemed to drive you nuts. :shrug: Neither of us would ignore the contributing "cultural factors".... with more detail from me, ala sex selection abortion, and sometimes its "post-birth cousin", female infanticide.

Sure the PC thing is to only call rape a crime of violence and power, but it IS also about sexual gratification; so the "young female shortage" the above have created in large parts of India contribute to the rape stats. Those who refuse 2B silent about these "all too common" things are better friends of potential rape victims there than UR.

tennisbum and I have clear "post trails" here of bashing those elements of American culture that lead to things like school shootings and a host of other social ills. As debopero correctly noted, this should :shout: not be turned into a US vs. India thread. Many countries have serious ills, that others can criticize without being "haters".

you can bash your american culture for all i care......i don't give a damn about it anyway because it is beyond repair......all i am saying is that do not make blanket statements knowing nothing about india.......

our culture is different and it would only be blatant ignorance on your part to take everything for granted......

hindu dharma doesn't encourage a woman freaking out alone in the night......you better get that straight......now don't comeback posting pics of a few urban indian woman dancing at midnight in a lounge.......that is not india, you haven't seen nothing......

debby
Jan 6th, 2013, 03:55 PM
that's why rapes happen.......men are stronger than women......that is simply the law of nature.......you or i cannot change it......

a few hundreds of women =/= india......those few hundreds are not from traditional background and are highly influenced by other cultures......when will you guys stop generalizing odd incidents and magnifying certain happenings?

What does it even mean?
We, women, should be able to live our life THE WAY we want, no matter what our background is. I really don't understand why you brought up the culture card.

Start da Game
Jan 6th, 2013, 04:05 PM
What does it even mean?
We, women, should be able to live our life THE WAY we want, no matter what our background is.

being a man, i totally wish for that to be possible but this is not an ideal world and is only getting badder by the year......

I really don't understand why you brought up the culture card.

culture card is because some people are still not getting it into their heads about the righteous method of living in india......so the discussion is leading to culture time and time again.......also, hinduism and certain laws of nature go hand in hand......

i don't know about other religions but hindu dharma suggests that man is the sole bearer of all burdens and responsibilities and should give his woman all she wants and keep her happy......

"dharma, artha, kama and moksha"

jai hind!

kwilliams
Jan 6th, 2013, 04:07 PM
In response to your previous post. I agree fully with what Debby said and while generalisations are rarely, if ever, helpful, tragic events must always be put under the magnifying glass to root out the source problem. The scrutiny might make you uncomfortable but its needed.

you can bash your american culture for all i care......i don't give a damn about it anyway because it is beyond repair......all i am saying is that do not make blanket statements knowing nothing about india.......

our culture is different and it would only be blatant ignorance on your part to take everything for granted......

hindu dharma doesn't encourage a woman freaking out alone in the night......you better get that straight......now don't comeback posting pics of a few urban indian woman dancing at midnight in a lounge.......that is not india, you haven't seen nothing......

So, it's okay for you to make a sweeping statement that American society is "beyond repair" but people are not allowed to pass comments about Indian society. Do you realise that makes no sense? I mean your knowledge of American society seems scant at best but you've made quite a few blanket statements.

Also, if a few urban women go out at night that is part of Indian society. It might not be common but is is part of the fabric of society. You should accept that and you should accept that they can do whatever they like. It's none of your business.

JN
Jan 6th, 2013, 04:13 PM
In response to your previous post. I agree fully with what Debby said and while generalisations are rarely, if ever, helpful, tragic events must always be put under the magnifying glass to root out the source problem. The scrutiny might make you uncomfortable but its needed.



So, it's okay for you to make a sweeping statement that American society is "beyond repair" but people are not allowed to pass comments about Indian society. Do you realise that makes no sense? I mean your knowledge of American society seems scant at best but you've made quite a few blanket statements.

Also, if a few urban women go out at night that is part of Indian society. It might not be common but is is part of the fabric of society. You should accept that and you should accept that they can do whatever they like. It's none of your business.

Thanks, now I don't have to address that.

Start da Game
Jan 6th, 2013, 04:33 PM
In response to your previous post. I agree fully with what Debby said and while generalisations are rarely, if ever, helpful, tragic events must always be put under the magnifying glass to root out the source problem. The scrutiny might make you uncomfortable but its needed.



So, it's okay for you to make a sweeping statement that American society is "beyond repair" but people are not allowed to pass comments about Indian society. Do you realise that makes no sense? I mean your knowledge of American society seems scant at best but you've made quite a few blanket statements.

Also, if a few urban women go out at night that is part of Indian society. It might not be common but is is part of the fabric of society. You should accept that and you should accept that they can do whatever they like. It's none of your business.

i said "beyond repair" bearing in mind their gun laws and the growing gun industry which has become an integral part of their economy......it's not really a blanket statement unless they curb the law entirely which is highly doubtful......

i am accepting that those few urban women can do whatever they want in india......they are free to do anything, we are not some islamic country......

all i am saying is that they are at their own risk if they go alone at night......it is simply a telling fact that men are designed stronger by god and nature (or whoever for nonbelievers of god)......there is no guarantee that even the "protectors" and "law makers" will abide by the good because they are also men and can get provoked upon seeing a woman who's alone......

if what you call "true freedom and stuff" ever existed, rapes would have stopped happening long ago everywhere in the world......but that's only in an ideal world.......

that's why i keep getting back to cultural argument and hinduism......

tennisbum79
Jan 6th, 2013, 05:12 PM
I don't know about you but I see plenty of people like tennisbum who are driven by their own agendas or just to show big nations (India/China/Russia etc) in poor light by ignoring their own backyards. Example, read this one:



I think you are mistaken, I have no agenda.

There have been a few discussion where you have leveled stinging criticism of the West and the US in particular.
Some of them I agree with, for the ones I do not agree, I did not go look for stats on India as a rebuttal.


I believe your mentioning of China/Russia refers to the discussion about Russia veto against the UN resolution that would have taken stronger measures against Syrian government.

At the time, I argued that they should not have vetoed the resolution because the conflict need to stop. And pressure generated by the sanction would have brought the Syrian government to negotiate a more peacful resolution to the crisis
You, on the other hand, thought the US and the West had no right to interfere in the internal affair of a sovereign country.


You went on to to criticize the US for all the wrong it did around the world.
My concerns was driven by the worsening humanitarian crisis and how to stop it.


Fast-forward to today, Syrian had gotten much worse; since our discussion, several more people have died, more have been displaced.
Russia has come to recognize the new reality and has concluded the situation to be untenable and is looking for a way out of crisis, but they don't know how


I know you were arguing on principles, and I respect that. But you have to balance it with the lives of real humans.


I don't know of many US posters on this site who are so sensitive of external criticism coming from non-American that they will assign ulterior motive to their argument criticizing the USA.
In fact, many American agree with some of your criticism of US, and you will find them joining you if you bring them in the right context; not as tic-for-tac.


You see yourself as being squarely in camp of Russia/China in a geopolitical world and I have no issue with that.
But I can't sit here and pretend it does not color your argument, example being you see any criticism of Russia or China as an attempt to show them in bad light.

In this discussion, you display the tendency Ashi described in her post below.

Personally, in general I think Indians are obsessed with what others think about them(as seen in this thread ;) ). 'Reputation', 'Honour', 'Respect', 'Position' etc etc are bandied about like there's no tomorrow. Don't do this/ Don't do that your/family's reputation is at stake. It becomes a part of your psyche.
This is a major reason for unreporting of rape and believe it or not female infanticide. Your manhood is in question if you haven't fathered a son.
Women are considered 'Paraya Dhan'....treasure which is to be given away...so why invest in them anyway. This is how least common denominator think.
Education is key here.

*JR*
Jan 6th, 2013, 05:20 PM
you can bash your american culture for all i care......i don't give a damn about it anyway because it is beyond repair......all i am saying is that do not make blanket statements knowing nothing about india.......

our culture is different and it would only be blatant ignorance on your part to take everything for granted......

hindu dharma doesn't encourage a woman freaking out alone in the night......you better get that straight......now don't comeback posting pics of a few urban indian woman dancing at midnight in a lounge.......that is not india, you haven't seen nothing......

Maybe we're making some progress here, because you seem to finally acknowledge that the US posters DO bash American culture where warranted, rather than hide behind "oh, this or that country is worse, so everybody STFU". In terms of women going out alone @ night, poor Jyoti Singh Pandev was with a man, and coming home @ "reasonable hour".

Ms. Pandev was also apparently part-Sikh from her middle name. (Her father Badri Singh Pandey I guess had a Sikh mother, making Jyoti 1/4 Sikh). Anyhow, the % doesn't matter. Are ethnic minorities subject to "the tyranny of the majority"? For example, should non-Muslim women have to wear headscarves in predominantly Islamic areas?
:confused:

Start da Game
Jan 6th, 2013, 06:05 PM
Maybe we're making some progress here, because you seem to finally acknowledge that the US posters DO bash American culture where warranted, rather than hide behind "oh, this or that country is worse, so everybody STFU".

when did i say that us posters bashing their own culture gives them right to speak about others? all i did was voice against unnecessary intervention in indian issues knowing absolutely nothing about india.......

In terms of women going out alone @ night, poor Jyoti Singh Pandev was with a man, and coming home @ "reasonable hour".


you are making that case based on how many incidents? i have hundreds of thousands of examples in india and usa where women were assaulted when they went out alone......

the point i am making is about minimizing the danger while what you are making is about something that the nature itself doesn't approve......

we are living in the kali yuga(fourth and the last in the hindu timeline which spans 432,000 years), the worst of all yugas......what you are asking "freedom at night" was only possible in the first and second yugas "satya yuga" and "treta yuga" when people's minds were 100% clean......that was the time when lord rama ruled and it was believed that people lived with 100% happiness and 0% crime rate......


kali yuga began in 3102 BC in terms of christian calenders......

Ms. Pandev was also apparently part-Sikh from her middle name. (Her father Badri Singh Pandey I guess had a Sikh mother, making Jyoti 1/4 Sikh). Anyhow, the % doesn't matter. Are ethnic minorities subject to "the tyranny of the majority"? For example, should non-Muslim women have to wear headscarves in predominantly Islamic areas?
:confused:

as for she being minority, she is a part sikh and sikhs are given equal respect......most often in india, minorities are pampered and hindus are neglected based on the exaggeration of the hindu principle "sarva dharma samabhava" (treating all dharmas equally)......

i am betting that nobody tolerates minorities as much as we indians do.......if we were as adamant as islamic countries or even some western countries, imagine what 100 crore hindus can do to the minorities......

tennisbum79
Jan 6th, 2013, 11:32 PM
as for she being minority, she is a part sikh and sikhs are given equal respect......most often in india, minorities are pampered and hindus are neglected based on the exaggeration of the hindu principle "sarva dharma samabhava" (treating all dharmas equally)......

i am betting that nobody tolerates minorities as much as we indians do.......if we were as adamant as islamic countries or even some western countries, imagine what 100 crore hindus can do to the minorities......

You are condescending, disrespectful to you fellow Indian citizens.


Do you realize using the word "tolerate" , "pampered" to refer to the presence other Indians who are different from shows contempt for them.
Not only you seem to be treating them as "guests", "the other", but you don't view them as equal.

And this sentiment has permeated many of your posts.


You claim you defend India, but you are embarrassing Indians by your neanderthal way o f thinking.


As posters after posters have shown, it is tedious to engage you.


BTW, having a vigorous debate is not the same as bashing.
We Americans are used to it, and never object to non-Americans joining in.


In fact, some of us are curious to know how certain aspect of the American politics is perceive elsewhere.; so we welcome participation from anywhere w/o checking passport at the door or asking them to sign confidentiality agreement that they will NOT be critical of the USA.

Miranda
Jan 7th, 2013, 02:04 AM
i don't think tennisbum or other posters are trying to put India down and ignoring the problems in their own countries. I think some Indian posters are just too sensitive. Rape is a crime, just like robbery or gun shooting. All of us are free to express our opinion and show our sympathy. This thread is about the rape, so why to talk about gun shooting? You can talk about it in other thread.

If we can only express opinion about crimes in other countries only after ALL the problems in our own countries have been solved, that would mean only posters that belong to the same countries where the crimes are involved can post, very unreasonable. There are also lots of horrible crimes/uneasonable acts made by the Chinese government happened in China, just like making tainted milks for babies or the lack of human rights. And if other non-Chinese posters criticised these people/the Chinese government/tradition, I would not intervene them, coz these Chinese are really human scums and the Chinese government was really wrong, I won't deny an obvious fact.

Expat
Jan 7th, 2013, 02:13 AM
Maybe we're making some progress here, because you seem to finally acknowledge that the US posters DO bash American culture where warranted, rather than hide behind "oh, this or that country is worse, so everybody STFU". In terms of women going out alone @ night, poor Jyoti Singh Pandev was with a man, and coming home @ "reasonable hour".

Ms. Pandev was also apparently part-Sikh from her middle name. (Her father Badri Singh Pandey I guess had a Sikh mother, making Jyoti 1/4 Sikh). Anyhow, the % doesn't matter. Are ethnic minorities subject to "the tyranny of the majority"? For example, should non-Muslim women have to wear headscarves in predominantly Islamic areas?
:confused:
Singh is not a exclusive Sikh name. Singh means lion or lionhearted. Plenty of Hindus have the same middle name/surname. Though Sikhs are religiously mandated to have the Singh or Kaur suffixes for men or women. There is no Hindu equivalent name for Kaur though.
Pandey is a Hindu Brahmin surname. She is someone at the top of the caste hierarchy so stop looking for caste-ism/religious discrimination in this rape case.
If anything given the dynamics of this case it is likely that the perpetrators are lower castes. Quite similar to black on white crime in the US for example.

And as far as I know non Muslims are mandated to wear headscarves in Islamic countries including the Swiss female ambassador to Iran.

tennisbum79
Jan 7th, 2013, 04:00 AM
.
She is someone at the top of the caste hierarchy so stop looking for caste-ism/religious discrimination in this rape case.
If anything given the dynamics of this case it is likely that the perpetrators are lower castes. Quite similar to black on white crime in the US for example.
.

You prejudice is showing and you don't even realize it. In the first sentence, you have no doubt it was not "caste-ism/religious discrimination in this rape case"
In the second sentence, you have no trouble to state the the perpetrators are lower castes.


I have seen this over and over again. Since lower castes are less likely to participate these debate on internet forums, this notion goes unchallenged.

And to finish with a bang, you add reference to "black on white crime in the US for example. "



BTW, is this a consensus among Indians. That lower caste commit crime against upper caste?
You just talked about it as a matter of fact, as something widely accepted.

wild.river
Jan 7th, 2013, 04:18 AM
You prejudice is showing and you don't even realize it. In the first sentence, you have no doubt it was not "caste-ism/religious discrimination in this rape case"
In the second sentence, you have no trouble to state the the perpetrators are lower castes.


I have seen this over and over again. Since lower castes are less likely to participate these debate on internet forums, this notion goes unchallenged.

And to finish with a bang, you add reference to "black on white crime in the US for example. "



BTW, is this a consensus among Indians. That lower caste commit crime against upper caste?
You just talked about it as a matter of fact, as something widely accepted.

jr wondered whether Jyoti's possible religiously downtrodden status had any relevance here. expat pointed out that she actually belongs to the highest caste and the rapists belong the lowest caste. he didn't state a contradiction.

maybe try understanding what a poster is saying before calling him prejudiced. (won't touch the irony in that)

tennisbum79
Jan 7th, 2013, 04:29 AM
jr wondered whether Jyoti's possible religiously downtrodden status had any relevance here. expat pointed out that she actually belongs to the highest caste and the rapists belong the lowest caste. he didn't state a contradiction.

maybe try understanding what a poster is saying before calling him prejudiced. (won't touch the irony in that)
I object to his suggestion that it is likely it was lowest caste that commit crime, and yes comparison to black on white crime exacerbate the situation for me, is also insulting.

BTW, this is not the first time I have noticed that lower caste are easily blamed for crime.

I don't have patience for unfairness and injustice.

Expat
Jan 7th, 2013, 05:02 AM
You prejudice is showing and you don't even realize it. In the first sentence, you have no doubt it was not "caste-ism/religious discrimination in this rape case"
In the second sentence, you have no trouble to state the the perpetrators are lower castes.


I have seen this over and over again. Since lower castes are less likely to participate these debate on internet forums, this notion goes unchallenged.

And to finish with a bang, you add reference to "black on white crime in the US for example. "





See the post I replied to. The poster is trying to make it as if it is a hate crime against minority Sikhs. I said that the victim is a Hindu Brahmin not half or quarter Sikh.
If you look at the names of the perpetrators some of them are lower caste.
However this is a rape case. Not a caste discrimination case.
To best of my knowledge this is the caste/religious denomination of the criminals.
Ram Singh -- lower caste (OBC) (though Singh is also a Sikh surname it is never used in conjunction with Ram, a Hindu god)
Mukesh Singh -- lower caste (OBC) ( brother of the above accused and also same caste. Mukesh is also a Hindu name)
Vinay Sharma -- upper caste (Brahmin highest in the caste system)
Muhammad Afroz -- Muslim ( lead accused and underaged, will be sentenced in juvenile court)
Akshay Thakur -- upper caste (Rajput high in the hierachy)
Pawan Gupta -- upper caste (Bania high in the hierarchy)



I am currently in Delhi and no one in India is treating this as a caste discrimination/religious discrimination case.
The black on white crime reference is to make it relevant to *JR* (TF's race expert).

BTW, is this a consensus among Indians. That lower caste commit crime against upper caste?
You just talked about it as a matter of fact, as something widely accepted.


The consensus is that lower castes are victims of upper caste crime. In rural areas we haven't heard much of the reverse situation. If a mugging happens in the US do you automatically treat as a hate crime? That's the same way this case is being treated in India. Its not being treated as a caste/religious issue. Its being treated as a rape.

Expat
Jan 7th, 2013, 05:06 AM
I object to his suggestion that it is likely it was lowest caste that commit crime, and yes comparison to black on white crime exacerbate the situation for me, is also insulting.

BTW, this is not the first time I have noticed that lower caste are easily blamed for crime.

I don't have patience for unfairness and injustice.

In India lower castes are not stereotyped as criminals. That is stereotyped of Muslims.

And I will be the first person to acknowledge that I am prejudiced. Everyone is prejudiced unlike liberal thinking who believe that its only whites.

Start da Game
Jan 7th, 2013, 06:09 AM
You are condescending, disrespectful to you fellow Indian citizens.


Do you realize using the word "tolerate" , "pampered" to refer to the presence other Indians who are different from shows contempt for them.
Not only you seem to be treating them as "guests", "the other", but you don't view them as equal.

And this sentiment has permeated many of your posts.


You claim you defend India, but you are embarrassing Indians by your neanderthal way o f thinking.


As posters after posters have shown, it is tedious to engage you.


BTW, having a vigorous debate is not the same as bashing.
We Americans are used to it, and never object to non-Americans joining in.


In fact, some of us are curious to know how certain aspect of the American politics is perceive elsewhere.; so we welcome participation from anywhere w/o checking passport at the door or asking them to sign confidentiality agreement that they will NOT be critical of the USA.

i fully stand by the words "tolerate" and "pampered" and everyone knows that they were directed at the the idiotic muslim groups......majority of urban indian muslims are the biggest crybabies on earth and often piss off every other religion in the country with their never ending complaining, bitching and crying attitude......people are tired of their nonsense......

we donated entire pakistan to their religion when they cried 70 years ago and asked for separation......we did everything a country could do to the minorities.......yet they behave as if they are treated unequally......

i don't even feel like explaining things to you because you just don't get it......

now don't give me all the hypocritical secular bullshit written in your laws......everybody knows how non-european settlers are treated in usa......we treat minorities 100 times better than that and give them absolutely equal rights, both in theory and practice......

india will be the land of hindus whether anybody likes it or not......if americans take pride in expressing their western greatness and poke their noses in all world issues just for roughly 500 years of their history and your brit pals for roughly 1500 years of history, we are speaking about 30,000 years of history here......

we are just asking not to comment on our country not knowing much about it......

Start da Game
Jan 7th, 2013, 06:28 AM
See the post I replied to. The poster is trying to make it as if it is a hate crime against minority Sikhs. I said that the victim is a Hindu Brahmin not half or quarter Sikh.
If you look at the names of the perpetrators some of them are lower caste.
However this is a rape case. Not a caste discrimination case.
To best of my knowledge this is the caste/religious denomination of the criminals.
Ram Singh -- lower caste (OBC) (though Singh is also a Sikh surname it is never used in conjunction with Ram, a Hindu god)
Mukesh Singh -- lower caste (OBC) ( brother of the above accused and also same caste. Mukesh is also a Hindu name)
Vinay Sharma -- upper caste (Brahmin highest in the caste system)
Muhammad Afroz -- Muslim ( lead accused and underaged, will be sentenced in juvenile court)
Akshay Thakur -- upper caste (Rajput high in the hierachy)
Pawan Gupta -- upper caste (Bania high in the hierarchy)



I am currently in Delhi and no one in India is treating this as a caste discrimination/religious discrimination case.
The black on white crime reference is to make it relevant to *JR* (TF's race expert).


The consensus is that lower castes are victims of upper caste crime. In rural areas we haven't heard much of the reverse situation. If a mugging happens in the US do you automatically treat as a hate crime? That's the same way this case is being treated in India. Its not being treated as a caste/religious issue. Its being treated as a rape.

the real culprit who started all this and provoked others too is believed to be that minor bastard......it all started with that scumbag as told by the girl's friend......

i don't think she is a full brahmin though......singh is never part of a brahmin name......

Expat
Jan 7th, 2013, 10:28 AM
Rape cases occur in India at a higher rate because there is no conviction for rapes.
The same is in the case of murders, kidnappings, robberies. In general law and order is poor in India.
The police and law enforcers are deliberately castrated by the politicians led by the Gandhi family who have ruled for much of the time since India's independence. Only in cases where there is much outrage does the police even act. This is true for all crimes whether rapes, murders or robberies.

Ashi
Jan 7th, 2013, 12:14 PM
i fully stand by the words "tolerate" and "pampered" and everyone knows that they were directed at the the idiotic muslim groups......majority of urban indian muslims are the biggest crybabies on earth and often piss off every other religion in the country with their never ending complaining, bitching and crying attitude......people are tired of their nonsense......

we donated entire pakistan to their religion when they cried 70 years ago and asked for separation......we did everything a country could do to the minorities.......yet they behave as if they are treated unequally......

i don't even feel like explaining things to you because you just don't get it......

now don't give me all the hypocritical secular bullshit written in your laws......everybody knows how non-european settlers are treated in usa......we treat minorities 100 times better than that and give them absolutely equal rights, both in theory and practice......

india will be the land of hindus whether anybody likes it or not......if americans take pride in expressing their western greatness and poke their noses in all world issues just for roughly 500 years of their history and your brit pals for roughly 1500 years of history, we are speaking about 30,000 years of history here......

we are just asking not to comment on our country not knowing much about it......
You sound as if you are a member of the old Hindu Mahasabha/New RSS. :rolleyes:
Please speak only for yourself. If you'd done your homework on partition you realise that not all Muslims were given a choice. Even if they wanted to stay, they were killed in cold blood.
The way you speak about partition is so incredibly insensitive to both Muslims and Hindus. Haven't we come anyway further in the last 70 years?!:help:
The Muslims have their own uniform civil code. If you are so against mooching off the Hindus what about the reservations for the OBC'S/SC/ST's etc. They are Hindu's too. You'd have this argument ad nauseum.
Also why is the caste of the victim being dragged in this discussion? :facepalm: