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fantic
Dec 6th, 2012, 06:26 PM
anything pertaining to East Asia.

FYI, China, Japan, Korea has no big love toward each other :lol: Of course mainly for historical reason.

about SK's belittling China, think of China as SK in the 60s to 80s, developing nation. Thus lots of SK think Chinese rather unsophisticated, boorish, coarse, what have you :lol: 'Chinese Continental scale' jokes should be understood in that context.

fantic
Dec 6th, 2012, 07:04 PM
about Japan. They were essentially pirate nation. Like Vikings and Elizabethan England :p Of course they had their distinct samurai culture, but military strength doesn't necessarily mean cultural strength, think of the Vikings. Nobody could stop them, some even took root in Italia. Mongol too, for that matter :lol:

Anyway, while Korea benefited Japan immensely throughout all these years, Japan returned the favor by attacking and pillaging Korea shores. Culmination was of course the 7 yr war from 1592 to 9. Japan attacked Korea using rifles, and Korea had to get help from Ming dynasty to finally defeat them(of course at sea Korea was victorious due to Lee Sun-shin, one of most brilliant naval geniuses in world history)

But probably they were richer, commercially stronger than Korea from the 1600s. While Korea pushed Confucianism to the limit, thereby denigrating commerce, Japan embraced it. And due to their geography, had contact with the West earlier than Korea. And while Korea prided themselves as 'Little China' 'Little Bro' of China and despised 'barbarians', Japan quickly took notice of Western scientific and military strength and was not shy of translating their literature and adapting. They of course reverted to fierce isolation in the 19th century, but after Perry of U.S. forced Japan to open their doors in 1854 or something, there was no going back for them. But proud China and Korea 'missed the bus', to paraphrase Neville Chamberlain :sobbing:

Sam L
Dec 6th, 2012, 07:53 PM
I'm mostly interested in Tang dynasty China and the dynasties before that the ones that opened the Silk Road. And to a much lesser extent Heian period in Japan. And also the Mongols of that period.

My interest is mostly from a religious perspective. The spread of Buddhism along the Silk Road, the syncretism of it with Chinese Taoist religions and the rivalries.

I really like Wu Zetian despite her flaws. East Asia in the 1st millennium, it's a geographical area and historical period that I'm still exploring.

PhilePhile
Dec 6th, 2012, 10:18 PM
Winchester, Simon (2008), author of The Man [Joseph Needham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Needham)] Who Loved China: The Fantastic Story of the Eccentric Scientist Who Unlocked the Mysteries of the Middle Kingdom (Authors@Google) ...

Xqvi7AxqfcM



The Great Reversal: The "Rise of Japan" and the "Fall of China" after 1895 as Historical (Harvard)...

Pn4rI6JqSI4

kwilliams
Dec 6th, 2012, 10:56 PM
China's not 20 years behind Korea, never mind 40, and even if it was that's no reason to look down on a nation. Lots of westerners could use that logic to look down on Korea but they would be just as wrong to do so.

Also, you don't think the Vikings and Elizabethan England were contemporary, right?

Anyway, I miss Seoul!! It's such a metropolis.

I lived here in Cheongdam (in Gangnam-gu) just off of this street, a little bit behind the tallest tower on the right:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7047/6920704331_808866f2cd_n.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithmaguire/6920704331/)
My Street (http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithmaguire/6920704331/) by keithmaguire 김채윤 (http://www.flickr.com/people/keithmaguire/), on Flickr

This is actually the view from the local cinema. Cool, huh!?

dybbuk
Dec 6th, 2012, 11:06 PM
I think you're very harsh in your evaluation of Japan. :p They had more than that. Japan had (and still has) a much more flourishing and varied literature than Korea did/does. Japan had a very refined side too. I think you're just taking their shogunate/military side and running with it, but ignoring the fact they had a beautiful, highly refined cultural center in Kyoto in this time period.

fantic
Dec 6th, 2012, 11:07 PM
China's not 20 years behind Korea, never mind 40, and even if it was that's no reason to look down on a nation. Lots of westerners could use that logic to look down on Korea but they would be just as wrong to do so.

Also, you don't think the Vikings and Elizabethan England were contemporary, right?


Yeah of course I know it's wrong to look down on :lol: Anyway there's lots of tensions..some Chinese soccer fans' threatening behaviors, that kind of thing. Some Chinese can be incredibly arrogant too :lol:

Contemporary? Of course not. But they were both pirates :p (ok maybe I'm exaggerating a bit on Elizabethan England :lol: But piracy was their MAJOR revenue at that time :lol:)

kwilliams
Dec 6th, 2012, 11:13 PM
There are arrogant people in every country. You don't need to out-do them in the arrogance stakes. If they want to be arrogant, that's their loss. Take the high road. Also, it'd be wise, economically, to suck up to them as much as possible!

I used to always make a point of telling Koreans that Cambodia was my favourite country in Asia too. Many, knowing that it's one of the least developed countries anywhere in East or South-East Asia, could not quite compute this! It might not be developed today but Angkor was one of the most developed cities in the world back in the day and there's nothing in Asia that compares to it in my opinion!

Cambodia :worship:

Sorry, I'll stick to discussing East Asia in the future!

fantic
Dec 6th, 2012, 11:14 PM
I think you're very harsh in your evaluation of Japan. :p They had more than that. Japan had (and still has) a much more flourishing and varied literature than Korea did/does. Japan had a very refined side too. I think you're just taking their shogunate/military side and running with it, but ignoring the fact they had a beautiful, highly refined cultural center in Kyoto in this time period.

Of course I'm not saying that they were ignorant barbarians :lol:
But throughout history they were mainly on the RECEIVING side, on cultural matters.
I always laugh when they say that Japanese was a different civilization than China :lol: Same written language, Confucianism, Buddhism, so what's so different about it :lol:

Varied literature? Like novel? I do think there was more lateral information exchange and sort of mass culture going in Japan than Korea. Korea was Confucian culture par excellence, pretty stratified society if you ask me. Very conservative, unlike more pragmatic Japanese. Chosun dynasty should have collapsed WAY earlier, preferably after that 7 yrs war in late 16th century. Like the French 3rd Republic, they totally deserved their destruction.

fantic
Dec 6th, 2012, 11:19 PM
kwilliams are you living in Dublin now? My family lives in Apgujung dong :lol:

And aren't you nonplussed at our stupid english for surnames? Kim? Lee? Park? We don't pronounce that way, as you know. Who the stupid fuck made that rule :sobbing:

dybbuk
Dec 6th, 2012, 11:26 PM
Varied literature as in imo Korean literature took much longer to stop mimicking Chinese literature and to create "Korean literature." Japanese began to break away from just mimicking China earlier on, and we got things like the first novel in Genji, bunraku and kabuki plays, waka and haiku, etc. I'd agree though that Japan was helped by having a flourishing popular culture scene that ended up fusing low-brow with high-brow for new types of literature like haikai.

And I do agree Japan was on the receiving side of things. But I just don't see how that makes them different from most every other Asian country at the time with China and their tributary system. :p It just so happens that Japan got most things later just because of geography.

About Korean surnames, I swear I have some OCD and I was upset for like a week that 박 doesn't contain an r like Park does.

fantic
Dec 6th, 2012, 11:33 PM
that's true. Korea was just too enthralled by China. Although they invented their own letter in 15th century, still their official written language until the end of Chosun dynasty like 400 yrs later, was Chinese(Well, for that matter Japanese letters are even more dependent on Chinese letters than Korean one :lol:). Maybe geography helped Japan become more freer in that regard.

And that's precisely my point. There's nothing especially separating Japan from other countries that merits their culture as a distinct 'civilization' In a broader sense East Asian cultural paradigm was a Chinese one, no doubt about that.

Halardfan
Dec 6th, 2012, 11:40 PM
It may well be true that Piracy propped up Elizabethan England. But in many ways perception overcomes reality in such things, and the perception is that the Elizabethan era is one of the great ones in English history, and Elizabeth herself one of the great monarchs.

Turning to Asia, Im English, but living here in Japan for a year and a half, and married to a Japanese lady. Japanese is a wo Deerfield country in many ways but in difficult times people often turn to extremes. It happened in World War 2 and in the looming Japanese elections it may happen again.

Most Japanese people I've met seen to like Korea, though the flare ups in Iskabd disputes have affected that.

But anti-Chinese sentiment is VERY common here. I blame both sides in that. Historically China has very real grievances against Japan which have not been dealt with definitively by Japan. Yet the Chinese government sometimes exploits this for its own ends.

fantic
Dec 6th, 2012, 11:41 PM
I believe the oldest metal printing press (or book that was made from it) was from Korea

link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movable_type)

"The world's first known movable-type system for printing was created in China around 1040 A.D. by Bi Sheng (990–1051) during the Song Dynasty;[1] following that, the first metal movable-type system for printing was made in Korea during the Goryeo Dynasty (around 1230). This led to the printing of the Jikji in 1377—today the oldest existant movable metal print book. "

fantic
Dec 6th, 2012, 11:49 PM
It may well be true that Piracy propped up Elizabethan England. But in many ways perception overcomes reality in such things, and the perception is that the Elizabethan era is one of the great ones in English history, and Elizabeth herself one of the great monarchs.

Turning to Asia, Im English, but living here in Japan for a year and a half, and married to a Japanese lady. Japanese is a wo Deerfield country in many ways but in difficult times people often turn to extremes. It happened in World War 2 and in the looming Japanese elections it may happen again.

Most Japanese people I've met seen to like Korea, though the flare ups in Iskabd disputes have affected that.

But anti-Chinese sentiment is VERY common here. I blame both sides in that. Historically China has very real grievances against Japan which have not been dealt with definitively by Japan. Yet the Chinese government sometimes exploits this for its own ends.

Japanese can be VERY sadistic..just look at their porno culture :lol: And of course, their history. Japanese were in many ways more horrible than Nazi Germans. Japan has always been a bane to Korea. For hundreds of years, they wreak havoc upon Korea. They sure were a predatory nation. After colonising Korea in 1910 they tried to erase our language, for chrissake. Even Japanese' dramatic economic rebirth was fueled by Korean war from 1950 :hysteric: And as you said, unlike Germany, Japan was never sincere about their pass transgression. They will never be a (moral) leader of Asia. Well, Japan themselves aren't quite sure about their identity; West or Asia :lol:

Lin Lin
Dec 6th, 2012, 11:50 PM
Which korea are you talking about?:confused:

fantic
Dec 6th, 2012, 11:56 PM
^ Korea was divided in 1945. (FDR shouldn't have allowed USSR to wage war upon Japan at Yalta :sobbing: Well, the military didn't want to shed their blood, so were relentless in urging FDR :lol:) I thought you knew that :lol:

kwilliams
Dec 6th, 2012, 11:57 PM
Really? What part of Apgu? Near the station? Galleria/Rodeo? Near Hakdong Sageori? I'm forgetting the names of the apt complexes. I was a stone's throw from Hakdong Sageori so I spent a lot of time in Apgujeong.

Yeah, the surnames don't make much sense. Kim is good enough, I think but I don't like Lee, Park (I always spell it "Pak" in English) Kang (which I spell Gang) or Hur (which I spell Heo, I think some Koreans spell it that way too) I was just talking about how common Kim, Lee and Park/Pak are in Korea. I would say Kang/Gang would be a distant fourth. A friend of mine said Jong. What do you think? A friend of mine is a Lee and can trace her ancestry to the same region as Lee Myeong-bak. She hates him though.

The Japanese may have done terrible things in the past but they seem to be very peaceable these days...at least when it comes to certain things. I'll never forget my visit to the Peace Park in Hiroshima. There's a memorial there to the Korean victims of the bombing.

fantic
Dec 7th, 2012, 12:01 AM
If you remember an OLD Y shaped apartment Hyundai 91(who the fuck named it Hyundai in english :sobbing: )building right next to Sungsu bridge and just across Gu jung middle school, that's where my family live :lol:

Surnames? Yeah one of the peculiarity of Korea :lol: Too common, those 3 :sobbing: Those ignorant of Korea might think that Korea is dominated by big 3 families :lol: I think Jung is 4th, but not sure :lol:

And what? Why is Kim good, it should be pronounced Gim(but not gym :oh: English can be so random :rolleyes:), and Lee, Yee :sobbing:(to think about it, Yee is not accurate either, just ee then :lol:)

kwilliams
Dec 7th, 2012, 12:02 AM
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4075/4889645497_4a66196372_n.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithmaguire/4889645497/)
The A-Bomb Dome (http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithmaguire/4889645497/) by keithmaguire 김채윤 (http://www.flickr.com/people/keithmaguire/), on Flickr

fantic
Dec 7th, 2012, 12:07 AM
by the by, Seoul is one of the MOST godawful looking capital city for sure. Absolutely DOMINATED by high apartment complex; Those range along the Han river :facepalm: Nice for the apartment tenants, for sure, but absolutely ruins the scenery :sobbing: Frankfurt, London, Paris, those European cities...I truly envy them :sobbing:

fantic
Dec 7th, 2012, 12:10 AM
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4075/4889645497_4a66196372_n.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithmaguire/4889645497/)
The A-Bomb Dome (http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithmaguire/4889645497/) by keithmaguire 김채윤 (http://www.flickr.com/people/keithmaguire/), on Flickr

Is that Japan? They love to portray themselves as a victim, but historically they ALWAYS have been aggressors :fiery:

fantic
Dec 7th, 2012, 12:14 AM
R

The Japanese may have done terrible things in the past but they seem to be very peaceable these days...at least when it comes to certain things.

I sure hope so, for humanity's sake. It's a REAL pity their political development was not on par with their rapid military and economic Westernization. Well, not that different from the West, I guess. Japan just followed the path of Western Imperialism

Novichok
Dec 7th, 2012, 12:50 AM
anything pertaining to East Asia.


I'm mostly interested in East Asian men.

fantic
Dec 7th, 2012, 12:52 AM
I think Korea was like Byzantium in the sense that they were both bureaucratic and ritualistic (religion). Chosun dynasty(1392~1900?) was Confucian state par excellence, there were even major debates about how long should the current king mourn his father :facepalm:

Chosun dynasty was quite an elite-driven society(true to Confucianism), and their royal output, such as official history, is famous. Many elites composed poems and essays, even stories too, but those aren't well known to the West. Some concubines (Gi-saeng) had some literary outputs as well :oh:

Japanese literature is well known because West have been exposed to them for a long time, due to their diligent translation effort for centuries.
Hell, Japanese paintings influenced Impressionists, even.

Koreans?(translating effort) Lazy :sobbing:

fantic
Dec 7th, 2012, 03:21 AM
Varied literature as in imo Korean literature took much longer to stop mimicking Chinese literature and to create "Korean literature." Japanese began to break away from just mimicking China earlier on, and we got things like the first novel in Genji, bunraku and kabuki plays, waka and haiku, etc. I'd agree though that Japan was helped by having a flourishing popular culture scene that ended up fusing low-brow with high-brow for new types of literature like haikai.


Just curious. How do you know about these. Did you take classes or something? Have you read those Japanese literature outputs? Have you read any Korean ones?(assuming there is translation :sobbing:) What do you mean about the bolded part? When do you think then Korea 'broke away' from just mimicking China? :p What's so peculiar about the Japanese literary outputs or genres you mentioned? I'm not particularly versed in Japanese literature (I do hope to read Genji someday :lol: There is like 3 prominent english translations; Japanese literature is THAT well exposed, million times better than Korea), so enlighten us :)

dybbuk
Dec 7th, 2012, 04:23 AM
Just curious. How do you know about these. Did you take classes or something? Have you read those Japanese literature outputs? Have you read any Korean ones?(assuming there is translation :sobbing:) What do you mean about the bolded part? When do you think then Korea 'broke away' from just mimicking China? :p What's so peculiar about the Japanese literary outputs or genres you mentioned? I'm not particularly versed in Japanese literature (I do hope to read Genji someday :lol: There is like 3 prominent english translations; Japanese literature is THAT well exposed, million times better than Korea), so enlighten us :)

Lol this is so putting me on the spot. Yes, I've taken classes on East Asian literature. I'll be taking a modern Chinese lit course next semester which I'm excited for. I am an International Relations/Econ double major with a focus on East Asia, so much of my humanities courses are on things like Japanese literature and Korean cinema. :p I recommend the Royall Tyler translation of Genji btw. Arthur Waley's is lovely as well, but it was before the time when people thought you needed to stay close to the original.

And I mean that after Japan spent much of it's early years writing crappy wannabe Chinese poetry (usually in crappy Chinese), they began to break away and create "Japanese literature" as opposed to "Chinese literature written by Japanese men who barely speak Chinese." A lot of the most original Japanese literature in this time period (Heian) was actually written by women, since they weren't allowed to learn Chinese thus they couldn't mimic Chinese writing. The Pillow Book is another lovely work from a woman. There's actually another that I loved even more that was written by a woman, but I can't remember her name and I don't have my book with me at school. :o I just remember it being uber-sad with a woman sitting in the rain reminiscing about before her husband stopped caring about her and started having affairs.

At the same time period uniquely Japanese poetry began to develop, especially the waka form which is completely Japanese and not a Chinese knockoff. Other forms of poetry later developed out of low-brow popular culture, like you mentioned, like the Renku linked verses, which then got scrubbed up and turned into a respected art form. Renku was designed to disorient the senses, by often alluding to Heian and Chinese poetry, then juxtaposing it with sex or other vulgarity (at least early on, before they cleaned it up). Haiku, in turn, come from renku poems. But I could go on, but I'm not doing it justice. If you want a good anthology on Japanese literature I recommend Early Modern Japanese Literature, compiled by Shirane Haruo. It's a massive purple brick. It even contains a large section on Japanese straight ad gay pornographic writing in the 1600s. We read this in class, it was fun.

Unfortunately, I'm not as schooled in Korean literature. I have read some early works, and they remind me a lot of early Japanese poetry that tries too hard. I've read more in modern literature such as Hwang Sun-won. Imo tho I don't think it's a coincidence that Japanese literature broke from Chinese earlier and the fact that Korea used Chinese script as the main basis of their writing longer than Japan did.

fantic
Dec 7th, 2012, 05:15 AM
Lol this is so putting me on the spot.

That was my intention :devil:




Unfortunately, I'm not as schooled in Korean literature. I have read some early works, and they remind me a lot of early Japanese poetry that tries too hard. I've read more in modern literature such as Hwang Sun-won. Imo tho I don't think it's a coincidence that Japanese literature broke from Chinese earlier and the fact that Korea used Chinese script as the main basis of their writing longer than Japan did.

Bolded; :oh:

But could you tell me which early works, like author and period. I'm curious how Korean literature is taught in the West. Hwang Sun-won? That's too late :lol:

But thx for the info on Japanese lit., yeah I know the merits of both versions of Genji you mentioned, but I guess Waley has its peculiar merit too, just like the Urquhart/Motteux version of Francois Rabelais.

Halardfan
Dec 7th, 2012, 05:34 AM
Is that Japan? They love to portray themselves as a victim, but historically they ALWAYS have been aggressors :fiery:

Surely not always? For example the 13th Century Mongol invasions or the attempts by Western nations to "open up" Japan.

Halardfan
Dec 7th, 2012, 05:41 AM
I sure hope so, for humanity's sake. It's a REAL pity their political development was not on par with their rapid military and economic Westernization. Well, not that different from the West, I guess. Japan just followed the path of Western Imperialism

The coming election in Japan will see Japan lurch in a worrying Nationalistic direction. Yet Korean and Chinese leaders are not without blame. In recent years when faced with domestic troubles its often been a convenient distraction for them to bring up issues relating to Japan.

I have no time for nationalists, Jaoanese, Korean or Chinese.

kwilliams
Dec 7th, 2012, 07:40 AM
Is that Japan? They love to portray themselves as a victim, but historically they ALWAYS have been aggressors :fiery:

How can you say that right under a picture of a ruined building from Hiroshima? Just because the Japanese leaders/military did terrible things does that mean all of these civilians deserved to be vaporized, burned and poisoned for generations? Did the infants who perished in the bombing deserve that just because some of those that came before them had committed atrocities.

I can't believe a person would be so indifferent to the suffering of such innocents...or anyone for that matter.

Also, I found that in the museum, the Japanese did not shy away from the events that had led up to WWII. The people who set up that museum did not portray the Japanese as victims. They portrayed the victims as victims - victims before, during and after the war. I found that everything was very tastefully done. The likes of which I've only seen at the Dokumentationszentrum in Nuremberg and The Killing Fields in Cambodia.

McPie
Dec 7th, 2012, 01:12 PM
man, I'm Southeast Asia :lol:

fantic
Dec 7th, 2012, 02:18 PM
Surely not always? For example the 13th Century Mongol invasions or the attempts by Western nations to "open up" Japan.

Well, Mongol didn't invade Japan, so that's that :lol:
West? Yes U.S. did shell some Japanese cities a bit but I was mainly talking about East Asian history :lol:

How can you say that right under a picture of a ruined building from Hiroshima? Just because the Japanese leaders/military did terrible things does that mean all of these civilians deserved to be vaporized, burned and poisoned for generations? Did the infants who perished in the bombing deserve that just because some of those that came before them had committed atrocities.

I can't believe a person would be so indifferent to the suffering of such innocents...or anyone for that matter.

Also, I found that in the museum, the Japanese did not shy away from the events that had led up to WWII. The people who set up that museum did not portray the Japanese as victims. They portrayed the victims as victims - victims before, during and after the war. I found that everything was very tastefully done. The likes of which I've only seen at the Dokumentationszentrum in Nuremberg and The Killing Fields in Cambodia.

You mean my op was wrong? I don't think so. Of course those citizens in two cities were victims, but it doesn't vitiate my op. Hell everybody suffered, German people too, but that doesn't mean Germany wasn't an aggressor, just a victim, no?

fantic
Dec 7th, 2012, 02:35 PM
man, I'm Southeast Asia :lol:

I know, go make your separate SE Asian thread :kiss:
Thailand, right? They were lucky to escape colonization by Western powers and Japan..but they couldn't escape WWII either, sadly.

And dybbuk, you didn't answer my question :lol: When did Korea began to make their distinct literary output? You seem to imply that it was much later than Japan, but I respectfully disagree :p

For example, Korean literary history wiki link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_literature)

There are some factual errors there :sobbing: like

"For much of Korea's 3,000 years of literary history, it was written both in Hanja and in the Korean script Hangul." Hangul was made in the early 15th century :sobbing:

But I think this entry is about right;

"Hyangga was the first uniquely Korean form of poetry. Only twenty five survive." :sobbing: Lost so many during the wars, especially that war waged by Japan..

The earliest one is said to have been written in 760. That was earlier than Heian period.

I'm now browsing Korean literature anthology books in Amazon, not very much and the books are pretty thin :sobbing: But I'm interested in the book about Japanese lit. you recommended, should check it out if it's in my local library ;)

kwilliams
Dec 7th, 2012, 07:07 PM
You mean my op was wrong? I don't think so. Of course those citizens in two cities were victims, but it doesn't vitiate my op. Hell everybody suffered, German people too, but that doesn't mean Germany wasn't an aggressor, just a victim, no?

In response to the picture I posted of the Genbaku Dome in Hiroshima, you said the Japanese tried to "portray" themselves as victims but they were "ALWAYS" aggressors...so, yeah, I question your response. I thought it was extremely tasteless, verging on the callous. Why use the word "portray" and raise the issue of their aggression if you really care about what happened to the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Also, as I mentioned, those who set up and run the museums and various memorials in the Peace Park did/do not address some of the atrocities committed by the Japanese both before and during the war. So, in this context (the only one we've been discussing), your opinion is wrong. A little compassion for fellow human being, irrespective of their nationality, wouldn't go astray.

I've been really missing Korea for the past week...but thanks for helping me to get over it. I'm suddenly reminded of quite a few repugnant remarks I heard after the Tōhoku Earthquake and I suddenly don't miss Korea at all anymore!

fantic
Dec 7th, 2012, 08:11 PM
all right, maybe my posting re: the pic was tactless but I still stand by what I said. Japan was and is NOT like Germany in regard to acknowledging their past aggression. If you can't even acknowledge this basic fact :shrug:

When I think of Japan in WWII my first image is not Hiroshima and Nagasaki, should I apologize for that?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/__FB9waRXJB0/TFxBEd3LfHI/AAAAAAAADbc/VGTLFCDQP2I/s320/japanese-atrocity.jpg

How about the massive rape of women including Koreans? Did Japan ever offer adequate compensation, in any way?

Sorry, Asians will NEVER forget what Japan did all those years. And since Japan wasn't sincere enough on apologies thereafter..

fantic
Dec 7th, 2012, 08:17 PM
Nazi death camp seems trivial compared to this

Unit 731 atrocities (http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Disturbing%20Truths/unit_731_atrocities.htm)

"Initially, the US and Japanese governments denied that atrocities had occurred"

"The key figures in Unit 731 became rather successful after the war. A number held senior university posts in the field of medicine. One headed up a leading Japanese pharmaceutical company while others gained positions such as President of the Japan Medical Association or Vice President if the Green Cross Corporation.

Shiro Ishii died unrepentant in 1959."

Controversy on Yaskuni shrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_surrounding_Yasukuni_Shrine)

"Due to the enshrinement of International Military Tribunal for the Far East (IMTFE) war criminals and the nationalist approach to the war museum, the Yasukuni Shrine and the Japanese Government have been criticized by China, Korea, and Taiwan as being revisionist and unapologetic about the events of World War II."

Japanese history textbook controversy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_history_textbooks_controversy)

""Comfort women" comments
In 2007, former education minister Nariaki Nakayama declared he was proud that the Liberal Democratic Party had succeeded in getting references to "wartime sex slaves" struck from most authorized history texts for junior high schools. "Our campaign worked, and people outside government also started raising their voices."[19] He also declared that he agreed with an e-mail sent to him saying that the "victimized women in Asia should be proud of being comfort women".[20]"

LeonHart
Dec 8th, 2012, 07:55 AM
Korea is benefiting so much economically from both China and Japan, how can the government and people show so much hatred towards both countries is beyond me.

From a Taiwanese standpoint:

Japan -
We admire the Japanese for their culture and technological advancement. Both countries share mutual respect for each other since the end of WWII. This is why Taiwanese culture is so similar to the Japanese. Also our older generation can speak Japanese from when Japan colonized Taiwan, and our younger generation has great interest in learning Japanese from Japanese pop culture.

China - Although we speak the same language, and our KMT government want us to identify ourselves as ethnic Chinese, mainland Chinese people are not seen in a positive light by the Taiwanese people. They are very rude, loud and do not have manners. Japan and Korea may look down on China because of the way they look or act, but for Taiwan it is different because we share the same language. Beijing accent is looked down upon in Taiwan (often laughed at). When a foreigner speaks in a Beijing accent in Taiwan, and a Taiwanese compliments them on their "very accurate" (準確) accent, do not take it as a compliment!

South Korea - S.Korea is our rival in Asia, as we were both part of the "Asian Tigers." Korean businesses are known to have bullied Taiwan businesses, whereas Japanese businesses have worked very closely with Taiwanese businesses triggers the competitiveness. KPop is big in Asia, even in Taiwan but in Taiwan we get the impression that South Korea is the land of plastic surgery and fakeness. Also their overall attitude seem very "cold", much like China. For example, when you enter a store or restaurant in Taiwan, the employees greet you, welcomes you in, they say 欢迎光临, which literally means "we welcome the light that you bring." This is the same in Japan ( いらしゃいます). However, Koreans and the Chinese do not do the same and do not give off the same "vibe" so to speak that the Taiwanese and Japanese people do. Even when the Chinese TRIES to copy the Taiwanese greeting they just don't seem to do it RIGHT.

kwilliams
Dec 8th, 2012, 01:59 PM
all right, maybe my posting re: the pic was tactless but I still stand by what I said. Japan was and is NOT like Germany in regard to acknowledging their past aggression. If you can't even acknowledge this basic fact :shrug:

Sorry, Asians will NEVER forget what Japan did all those years. And since Japan wasn't sincere enough on apologies thereafter..

all right, maybe my posting re: the pic was tactless but I still stand by what I said. Japan was and is NOT like Germany in regard to acknowledging their past aggression. If you can't even acknowledge this basic fact :shrug:



Who says I can't acknowledge this fact?

Rather than acknowledge the horrors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - you said the Japanese try to portray themselves as victims and were always aggressors. You clearly weren't interested in sympathising with the men, women, children, foreign POWs or even the Koreans who were killed in the bombing. Instead you used my posting as an opportunity to possibly imply that the Japanese capitalise on this to gloss over the wrongs that they have committed OR to move the conversation in a different direction (perhaps because you want the Japanese to be portrayed in a certain way in this thread)

So, I chose not to acknowledge some of the valid things you have mentioned because I felt you weren't really acknowledging what I had mentioned. I don't think you were interested in what I was saying at all. I would have been willing to broaden the context of our discussion had you simply acknowledged that the victims of the atomic bombings were innocent victims! You didn't want to discuss them. You just wanted to discuss the Japanese (or rather their government and military)

If it makes you feel any better, I am well aware of some/many of the sadistic acts that Japanese soldiers were responsible for. One of the greatest things I regret not doing in Korea is visiting the comfort women in Seoul (I was always unsure of how appropriate it was for men to visit them, particularly non-Korean speaking men)

Furthermore, I understand your feelings on the matter. I always found it quite easy to identify with Koreans because Korean history and Irish history have many parallels. I understand that it can be difficult to let go of certain feelings when you feel that people don't really care about the things that have happened in your country - responsibility/accountability would be nice but you'd settle for acknowledgement - when you feel that people want to downplay past events or even try to excuse them, rather than acknowledge them just so that people can move on let go.

However, if you can't separate what governments/military do from what civilians do - then I don't know what to say to you. You can't blame every single Japanese person past and/or present for the wrongs that some, or even many committed. There were possibly or even probably a significant number of Japanese people that suffered considerably under their own government and the rigidity of their own social structure. They and their descendants do not deserve anything other than sympathy. It's sad if you can't see that, if you'd rather try to create opportunities to blame indescriminantly...because that's a slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? What's an acceptable level and what isn't?

Let me put it to you this way. Just 20 years after Ireland became free (and also divided) after centuries of oppression and uncountable atrocities, tens of thousands of Irishmen voluntarily enlisted in the British Army (yes, the British army) to fight Nazism. No real efforts had been made to make amends, unfavourable terms of the treaty were still in place and equality for Irish people living in Northern Ireland was still just a dream but a huge number of men joined the army (and took considerable flack for it at home both before and after the war) to work together and stand up for what was right. This was less than a full generation later. After centuries of oppression, these men were untainted, their humanity was very much intact. Many others in Ireland had obviously been hardened and would have had little to no sympathy for what the British were going through - probably even to the civilians who were suffering in the UK. Though, that's understandable in a way, it's not justified. Most of the civilians who were suffering were working class people and neither they or their ancestors had any involvement in the oppression of Ireland or would have benefited from it. Did those civilians not deserve sympathy? Shouldn't their suffering have been widely acknowledged? I doubt it was and Dublin was bombed during the war too (it was mistaken for Belfast) so some would've understood what British civilians were going through.

I'm glad that a significantly number of men could swallow some pretty bitter feelings to do what was right!!

Helen Lawson
Dec 8th, 2012, 02:12 PM
I had a client once who was from Taiwan. He said all the Asian guys cheat on their wives, and the wives know it and depending on the culture, they accept it in varying degrees. I can't remember each of what he said, but he said the Japanese wife will stay up waiting for the cheater and have a bath drawn, the Chinese wife will be awake but pretend to be asleep and never say a word. I don't know that the other women do, I can't remember. He didn't appear to be kidding.

Also, we spent a few days in Korea, his Korean business contacts said it's a huge status symbol to be half Caucasian, and they are called "Ko-Mericans" and it's a big deal. His fiancé also cut up his food and fed it to him at the restaurant at the table. This couple was well into their 30s.

fantic
Dec 8th, 2012, 03:47 PM
Korea is benefiting so much economically from both China and Japan, how can the government and people show so much hatred towards both countries is beyond me.

That's because you're quite ignorant of history, hon :hug:



South Korea - S.Korea is our rival in Asia, as we were both part of the "Asian Tigers." Korean businesses are known to have bullied Taiwan businesses, whereas Japanese businesses have worked very closely with Taiwanese businesses triggers the competitiveness. KPop is big in Asia, even in Taiwan but in Taiwan we get the impression that South Korea is the land of plastic surgery and fakeness. Also their overall attitude seem very "cold", much like China. For example, when you enter a store or restaurant in Taiwan, the employees greet you, welcomes you in, they say 欢迎光临, which literally means "we welcome the light that you bring." This is the same in Japan ( いらしゃいます). However, Koreans and the Chinese do not do the same and do not give off the same "vibe" so to speak that the Taiwanese and Japanese people do. Even when the Chinese TRIES to copy the Taiwanese greeting they just don't seem to do it RIGHT.

:haha: land of fakeness :lol: I thought Taiwan was famous for piracy, they do seem to excel in making imitation products. It's like pot calling kettle black :spit:

YOU seem to have an inordinate hatred toward Korea
, wasn't it you that made a denigrating comment during an Olympic thread? Should try to find that one.

GG South Korea, nation of cheaters :lol:

fantic
Dec 8th, 2012, 04:42 PM
Who says I can't acknowledge this fact?

Rather than acknowledge the horrors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - you said the Japanese try to portray themselves as victims and were always aggressors. You clearly weren't interested in sympathising with the men, women, children, foreign POWs or even the Koreans who were killed in the bombing. Instead you used my posting as an opportunity to possibly imply that the Japanese capitalise on this to gloss over the wrongs that they have committed OR to move the conversation in a different direction (perhaps because you want the Japanese to be portrayed in a certain way in this thread)

The bolded part. You got it right. I was exactly implying that. It's a fact. I thought you knew it. Really Truman made a tremendous mistake. Not only did he make a decision that killed INNOCENT LIVES, he gave Japan sort of an 'excuse', again, your bolded part accurately captures the Jap gov's intention.





Furthermore, I understand your feelings on the matter. I always found it quite easy to identify with Koreans because Korean history and Irish history have many parallels. I understand that it can be difficult to let go of certain feelings when you feel that people don't really care about the things that have happened in your country - responsibility/accountability would be nice but you'd settle for acknowledgement - when you feel that people want to downplay past events or even try to excuse them, rather than acknowledge them just so that people can move on let go.


Again, you got it right. The bolded part. That's EXACTLY the reason why there's still tensions about WWII. Japan isn't SINCERE about their past aggression. That's why Asians just can't trust Japan(Except, of course, LeonHart :lol:)


However, if you can't separate what governments/military do from what civilians do - then I don't know what to say to you. You can't blame every single Japanese person past and/or present for the wrongs that some, or even many committed. There were possibly or even probably a significant number of Japanese people that suffered considerably under their own government and the rigidity of their own social structure. They and their descendants do not deserve anything other than sympathy. It's sad if you can't see that, if you'd rather try to create opportunities to blame indescriminantly...because that's a slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? What's an acceptable level and what isn't?


When did I blame innocent Japanese people? Of course when I say Japan, I'm implying Japanese government. I know modern Japanese history sufficiently enough to know that their society wasn't as totalitarian as it seems to be and there was significant oppositions, politically and socially, against the imperialist movement.

Of course everybody should deplore the atomic bombings and feel sympathy for the victims of that. As I said before, I was tactless to reply quoting the picture and I apologize for that.


Let me put it to you this way. Just 20 years after Ireland became free (and also divided) after centuries of oppression and uncountable atrocities, tens of thousands of Irishmen voluntarily enlisted in the British Army (yes, the British army) to fight Nazism. No real efforts had been made to make amends, unfavourable terms of the treaty were still in place and equality for Irish people living in Northern Ireland was still just a dream but a huge number of men joined the army (and took considerable flack for it at home both before and after the war) to work together and stand up for what was right. This was less than a full generation later. After centuries of oppression, these men were untainted, their humanity was very much intact. Many others in Ireland had obviously been hardened and would have had little to no sympathy for what the British were going through - probably even to the civilians who were suffering in the UK. Though, that's understandable in a way, it's not justified. Most of the civilians who were suffering were working class people and neither they or their ancestors had any involvement in the oppression of Ireland or would have benefited from it. Did those civilians not deserve sympathy? Shouldn't their suffering have been widely acknowledged? I doubt it was and Dublin was bombed during the war too (it was mistaken for Belfast) so some would've understood what British civilians were going through.

I'm glad that a significantly number of men could swallow some pretty bitter feelings to do what was right!!

I'm not sure what your example signifies :lol: Are you saying that Koreans should've forgone the brutal colonial rule and followed Japan's WWII slogan of 'Great Asia Prosperity Sphere' and fight alongside Japan during the War? :lol:

As I said repeatedly, Japan apparently isn't sincere about their past aggression. If they're not, why should Asians, say, 'love' Japan? :lol:

If a rapist isn't sincere about apology on rape, should the victim wholeheartedly embrace the rapist and love him? :lol: Christian love? I think that's a more accurate analogy :lol:

fantic
Dec 8th, 2012, 04:48 PM
Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_East_Asia_Co-Prosperity_Sphere)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/Japanese_Empire_-_1942.svg/300px-Japanese_Empire_-_1942.svg.png

" It represented the desire to create a self-sufficient "bloc of Asian nations led by the Japanese and free of Western powers" "

"Konoe planned the Sphere in 1940 in an attempt to create a Great East Asia, comprising Japan, Manchukuo, China, and parts of Southeast Asia, that would, according to imperial propaganda, establish a new international order seeking "co prosperity" for Asian countries which would share prosperity and peace, free from Western colonialism and domination.[6] Military goals of this expansion included naval operations in the Indian Ocean and the isolation of Australia.[7] This would enable the principle of hakkō ichiu.[8]

This was one of a number of slogans and concepts used in the justification of Japanese aggression in East Asia in the 1930s through the end of World War II. The term "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" is remembered largely as a front for the Japanese control of occupied countries during World War II, in which puppet governments manipulated local populations and economies for the benefit of Imperial Japan."

Apparently, Western colonialism was bad but Japanese colonialism was ok, since they were the same Asians :lol:

"It explicitly states the superiority of the Japanese over other Asian races and suggests that the Sphere was merely propaganda intended to mask Japan's true intention of domination over Asia.[20]

China and other Asian nations were regarded as too weak and lacking in unity to be treated as equal partners.[21] The booklet Read This and the War is Won—for the Japanese army—presented colonialism as a tiny group of colonists living in luxury by burdening Asians, because ties of blood connect them to Japanese, and Asians had been weakened by colonialism, it was Japan's place to "make men of them again." "

Japanese racism at work :lol:

"The negative connotations that still attach to the term "Greater East Asia" (大東亜) remain one of a number of difficulties facing the annual East Asia Summits[citation needed], begun in 2005 to discuss the possibility of the establishment of a stronger, more united East Asian Community."

LeonHart
Dec 8th, 2012, 05:03 PM
That's because you're quite ignorant of history, hon :hug:



:haha: land of fakeness :lol: I thought Taiwan was famous for piracy, they do seem to excel in making imitation products. It's like pot calling kettle black :spit:

YOU seem to have an inordinate hatred toward Korea
, wasn't it you that made a denigrating comment during an Olympic thread? Should try to find that one.

I do like not Koreans because they are ALWAYS the ones sucking up to China on the global stage. In history and now. They are more like China than even Taiwan and we are "taught" to be Chinese by our government. In case you didn't know China has the #2 World Economy...who's on top and who's on the bottom? So what makes you think Koreans have to right to "look down" on the Chinese. Taiwan the land of imitation? Look at Koreans claiming they hate the Japanese yet completely imitate Japanese pop culture. Like the Chinese, they always site back to history for their hatred towards the Japanese...and gives them the excuse to pick on the Japanese on the world stage. Sad! In modern times the Japanese have done nothing but to help Korea succeed.

Also if you think Taiwan is the land of imitation product you obviously know ZILCH about Taiwan. Seeing as you completely skipped Taiwan in your original post, I'd say go figure.

LeonHart
Dec 8th, 2012, 05:09 PM
I had a client once who was from Taiwan. He said all the Asian guys cheat on their wives, and the wives know it and depending on the culture, they accept it in varying degrees. I can't remember each of what he said, but he said the Japanese wife will stay up waiting for the cheater and have a bath drawn, the Chinese wife will be awake but pretend to be asleep and never say a word. I don't know that the other women do, I can't remember. He didn't appear to be kidding.

Also, we spent a few days in Korea, his Korean business contacts said it's a huge status symbol to be half Caucasian, and they are called "Ko-Mericans" and it's a big deal. His fiancé also cut up his food and fed it to him at the restaurant at the table. This couple was well into their 30s.

Just as in Western and Middle Eastern history (even now in the Middle East), men with power and money had many wives with many children. To my knowledge, polygamy is illegal in most of Asia now (actually not even sure where it is legal in Asia anymore). Also, at least in Chinese culture, it is considered a shame to be divorced. This is why many people would rather commit suicide than to divorce their once loved ones...which is completely opposite in Western Society.

LeonHart
Dec 8th, 2012, 05:17 PM
Again, you got it right. The bolded part. That's EXACTLY the reason why there's still tensions about WWII. Japan isn't SINCERE about their past aggression. That's why Asians just can't trust Japan(Except, of course, LeonHart :lol:)




The Taiwan government has tensions with Japan, there is no doubt about it. I'm saying Taiwan as a nation do not share the same animosity towards the Japanese that the Koreans and Chinese share because of their "history." So you are wrong in implying that all Asians hate Japan. Stick with the facts!

FYI the tiny nation of Taiwan donated the most to Japan during their 2011 earthquake. Even more than the US and more than China and Korea combined!

Source (http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2011/04/16/2003500900)

fantic
Dec 8th, 2012, 05:23 PM
I do like not Koreans because they are ALWAYS the ones sucking up to China on the global stage. In history and now. They are more like China than even Taiwan and we are "taught" to be Chinese by our government. In case you didn't know China has the #2 World Economy...who's on top and who's on the bottom? So what makes you think Koreans have to right to "look down" on the Chinese. Taiwan the land of imitation? Look at Koreans claiming they hate the Japanese yet completely imitate Japanese pop culture. Like the Chinese, they always site back to history for their hatred towards the Japanese...and gives them the excuse to pick on the Japanese on the world stage. Sad! In modern times the Japanese have done nothing but to help Korea succeed.

Also if you think Taiwan is the land of imitation product you obviously know ZILCH about Taiwan. Seeing as you completely skipped Taiwan in your original post, I'd say go figure.

I dunno even where to start, but let's confine to the bolded part; :eek: You hate Korea because they suck up to China? :lol: What kind of logic is that? :lol: Sure Korea sucked up to China in pre-modern times, but is that an excuse, come on, really? :lol:

Or is the true reason being Korea in the early 1990s 'abandoning' Taiwan and recognizing China?
I know Korea gov. did that in a brutal way, hurting Taiwanese sentiments :hug:

Oh come on, Taiwan IS a haven for imitation product shopping, it has been for YEARS :lol: I know Taiwan middle-sized industry is pretty solid, but it doesn't preclude the proliferation of imitation industry :lol: Or are you going to blame it on China? :lol:

fantic
Dec 8th, 2012, 05:27 PM
LeonHart you should really blame USA more, since USA 'abandoned' Taiwan during the civil war in 1949. Blame George Marshall! :hug:

And what about Nixon?!! How dare he normalize relation with China and boot Taiwan out from the UN Security Council!! (is this part right? UN Council one) Shouldn't you give Korea(who is famous for sucking up to USA :sobbing:) credit for sticking out THAT long before 'inevitably' recognizing China? :sobbing:

fantic
Dec 8th, 2012, 05:37 PM
ROC-SK relation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China%E2%80%93South_Korea_relations)

"On 23 August 1992, South Korea opened diplomatic relations with the People's Republic of China. South Korea's movement away from anti-communist foreign policy to improve relations with nearby communist countries resulted in a deterioration of relations with the Republic of China. This change was introduced to appease North Korea and ease the political anxiety and softens military tension in the Korean Peninsula; South Korea hoped to enable the possibility of a peaceful reunification of the Korean peninsula. As normalization begun, Roh transferred diplomatic recognition from the ROC and PRC, and confiscated the property of the ROC embassy, transferring it to the PRC. On 17 September 1991, the PRC withdrew their objection against South Korean membership in the United Nations. South Korea was the last Asian country with formal diplomatic relations with the Republic of China."

You see? SK was the last 'faithful one'. Maybe that was the reason Taiwanese felt the 'abandonment' more harshly? :hug:

But can you really blame SK, if the first bolded part, stabilizing the tension in the Korean peninsula, is true? But as I said earlier, SK didn't do it smoothly, they maybe could have done it in a more prudent and non-offensive way :hug:

LeonHart
Dec 8th, 2012, 05:37 PM
Or is the true reason being Korea in the early 1990s 'abandoning' Taiwan and recognizing China?
I know Korea gov. did that in a brutal way, hurting Taiwanese sentiments :hug:


No, not at all. If this was the case I'd hate Japan just as much as they did the exact same thing. In fact I do not support the current Taiwanese government as well, so you fail on all parts of this post :angel:

fantic
Dec 8th, 2012, 05:47 PM
No, not at all. If this was the case I'd hate Japan just as much as they did the exact same thing. In fact I do not support the current Taiwanese government as well, so you fail on all parts of this post :angel:

Then I don't really understand the reason you stated, Korea sucking up to China :confused: Korea sure sucks up to USA, (First President Lee Sungman even proposed SK being a state of USA :spit: and USA 'saved' SK in the Korean War in 1950) but China? :lol: Define 'sucking' :lol: Maybe SK gov thinks that having a friendly relation with China might soften the tension against NK, since China has big? influence on NK.

In fact, some Koreans wonder what China will do if NK disintegrates :scared: Will they occupy NK as well? Even in a de-facto way?

fantic
Dec 8th, 2012, 06:36 PM
Korea really has no evidence to back up the claims that they own Dokdo. That is why they continually reject having it resolved in court. It is a completely different story than the DiaoYuTai Islands.

:spit: What is so different between Dokdo and DiaoYuTai? Enlighten us :devil: And of course SK doesn't want to refer to court. Don't want to take any chances :shrug:

In modern times the Japanese have done nothing but to help Korea succeed.


You mean colonization of Korea benefited Korea? :eek: News indeed.
You need to be very careful here :lol: Do you know that Japanese Samurais even murdered the Queen of Korea? :eek:

Empress Min (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empress_Myeongseong)

"Empress Myeongseong[19] had attempted to counter Japanese interference in Korea and was considering turning to Russia or China for support. In 1895, Empress Myeongseong (referred to as "Queen Min"[19]) was assassinated by Japanese agents.[20][20] The Japanese minister to Korea, Miura Goro, orchestrated the plot against her. A group of Japanese agents along with the Hullyeondae Army[20] entered the Gyeongbokgung Royal Palace in Seoul, which was under Japanese control,[20] and Empress Myeongseong was killed and her body desecrated in the North wing of the palace."

And about helping Korea to succeed? Maybe they wanted to pay back, since Japan profited immensely during the Korean War in 1950-3 :lol: Think about what WWII did to USA economy ;) It helped USA to totally escape Depression.

fantic
Dec 8th, 2012, 06:49 PM
dispute on Dokdo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liancourt_Rocks#Sovereignty_dispute)

"Sovereignty dispute

"Main article: Liancourt Rocks dispute


South Korea stamps depicting the Liancourt Rocks from 1954.
Sovereignty over the islands has been an ongoing point of contention in Japan–South Korea relations. There are conflicting interpretations about the historical state of sovereignty over the islets. Korean claims are partly based on references to an island called Usan-do (우산도, 于山島/亐山島) in various medieval historical records, maps, and encyclopedia such as Samguk Sagi, Annals of Joseon Dynasty, Dongguk Yeoji Seungnam, and Dongguk munhon bigo. According to the Korean view, these refer to today's Liancourt Rocks, while the Japanese researchers of these documents have claimed the various references to Usan-do refer at different times to Jukdo, its neighboring island Ulleungdo, or a non-existent island between Ulleungdo and Korea.[26] (The first printed usage of the name Dokdo was in a Japanese log book in 1904.) Other key points of the dispute involve the legal basis which Japan used to claim the islands in 1905, and the legal basis of South Korea's claim on the islands in 1952."

Although technically still at war with South Korea, North Korea reportedly supports South Korea's claim.[27][28]"

1905, the year that Japan made a treaty with Korea to 'take care of Korean interests' in diplomatic relations :spit:

Senkaku Islands dispute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkaku_Islands#Sovereignty_dispute)

"Sovereignty dispute



Two of the disputed islets – Kita-Kojima (left) and Minami-Kojima (right)
Main article: Senkaku Islands dispute
Territorial sovereignty over the islands and the maritime boundaries around them are disputed between the People's Republic of China, the Republic of China (Taiwan), and Japan.

The People's Republic and Taiwan claim that the islands have been a part of Chinese territory since at least 1534. They acknowledge that Japan took control of the islands in 1894–1895 during the first Sino-Japanese War, through the signature of the Treaty of Shimonoseki. They assert that the Potsdam Declaration (which Japan accepted as part of the San Francisco Peace Treaty) required that Japan relinquish control of all islands except for "the islands of Honshū, Hokkaidō, Kyūshū, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine", and they state that this means control of the islands should pass to China.

Japan does not accept that there is a dispute, asserting that the islands are an integral part of Japan.[43] Japan has rejected claims that the islands were under China's control prior to 1895, and that these islands were contemplated by the Potsdam Declaration or affected by the San Francisco Peace Treaty.[44]"

So tell us LeonHart, what is SOOOO different about those two island disputes? :lol:

Lin Lin
Dec 8th, 2012, 11:00 PM
Good read:lol:

useme
Dec 8th, 2012, 11:42 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=FDoVG2D8te4

dybbuk
Dec 9th, 2012, 12:11 AM
Yeah. This is why I am not getting into this thread. It only took about 3 pages to turn into a Korea v Japan debate, which I have neither time nor interest for. No decent discussions are to be had when the basis is which country is worse.

fantic
Dec 9th, 2012, 04:27 PM
What did you expect? :lol: Recent history is still a thorny issue thx to Imperial Japan

http://www.9thimperialmarines.com/Images/japanese_flagLarge.gif

And dunno why Japan is so serious about those 'useless rocks' like Dokdo and Senkaku islands, they're economic superpower :lol:

And we can also talk about East Sea :lol:
Why, Koreans are actually quite generous, better than 'Corean Sea' which was MOST common on the maps before the 19th century, just check out the Oxford World Classic and Penguin Classic's Laputa portion of 'Gulliver's Travels' :lol: 'Sea of Corea' right there on the map :haha:

fantic
Dec 9th, 2012, 04:39 PM
One of the world treasures, made in the Goryu dynasty (936~1392)

http://cfile25.uf.tistory.com/image/191364424ED471573837CB

http://cfs5.blog.daum.net/image/27/blog/2007/07/16/15/22/469b0e9fcb0e8&filename=%ED%8C%94%EB%A7%8C%20%EB%8C%80%EC%9E%A5%E A%B2%BD3.jpg

http://www.kjclub.com/UploadFile/exc_board_4/2011/09/23/8.jpg

More than 80 thousand of those plates are in Buddhist monastery in Hapchun.

Tripitaka Koreana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripitaka_Koreana)

"The Tripitaka Koreana (lit. Goryeo Tripitaka) or Palman Daejanggyeong ("Eighty-Thousand Tripitaka") is a Korean collection of the Tripitaka (Buddhist scriptures, and the Sanskrit word for "three baskets"), carved onto 81,258 wooden printing blocks in the 13th century. It is the world's most comprehensive and oldest intact version of Buddhist canon in Hanja script, with no known errors or errata in the 52,382,960 characters which are organized in over 1496 titles and 6568 volumes."

"The Tripitaka Koreana was first carved in 1087 during the Third Goryeo-Khitan War. The act of carving the woodblocks was considered to be a way of bringing about a change in fortune by invoking the Buddha's help.[1]

The original set of woodblocks were destroyed by fire during the Mongol invasions of Korea in 1232, when Goryeo's capital was moved to Ganghwa Island during nearly three decades of Mongol incursions, although scattered parts of its prints still remain. To once again implore divine assistance with combating the Mongol threat, King Gojong thereafter ordered the revision and re-creation of the Tripitaka; the carving took 16 years, from 1236 to 1251"

"The Tripitaka Koreana is the 32nd national treasure of Korea, and the Haeinsa Temple Janggyeong Panjeon, the depository for Tripitaka Koreana, has been designated as a UNESCO World Heritage Site.[2] The UNESCO committee describes the Triptaka Koreana as one of the "most important and most complete corpus of Buddhist doctrinal texts in the world."[3] Not only is the work invaluable, it is also aesthetically valuable and shows a high quality of workmanship.[3]

The historical value of the Tripitaka Koreana comes from the fact that it is the most complete and accurate extant collection of Buddhist treatises, laws, and scriptures.[4]

Because of the accuracy of the Tripitaka Koreana, the Japanese, Chinese, and Taiwanese versions of the Tripitaka are based on this Korean version.[4]

Each block is made of birch wood from the southern islands of Korea and was treated to prevent the decay of the wood. They were soaked in sea water for three years, then cut, then boiled in salt water. Then, the blocks were placed in the shade and exposed to the wind for three years at which point they were finally be ready to be carved. After each block was carved, it was covered in a poisonous lacquer to keep insects away and was framed with metal to prevent warping."

fantic
Dec 9th, 2012, 04:47 PM
Goryeo Dynasty porcelain was world-famous for its quality, the best of its kind.

And look what they say about its export in wiki page;

"Export porcelain

Nearly all exports of Korean ceramics went to Japan, and most were from provincial coastal kilns, especially in the Busan area. Export occurred in two ways: either through trading and the voluntary immigration of potters, or through outright invasion and theft of pottery and the forced relocation to Japan of families of potters who made the wares. The method of sending paper models of ceramics to Japan, having them approved and then having them manufactured began in the late 17th century, most often for the masters of Japanese Tea Ceremony."

Especially during the 1592-9 7yr war.

fantic
Dec 9th, 2012, 04:50 PM
Epochal even in East Asian history, Japanese invasions of Korea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_invasions_of_Korea_(1592%E2%80%931598)) One of the reasons of the demise of Ming dynasty.

"Effects

Korea suffered the loss of a large portion of its Soldiers and faced enormous financial difficulties as a result of the war taking place almost entirely on its soil and nowhere else[17].

In addition to the human losses, Korea suffered tremendous cultural, economic, and infrastructural damage, including a large reduction in the amount of arable land,[12] the destruction and confiscation of significant artworks, artifacts, and historical documents, and the loss of artisans and technicians. During this time, the main Korean royal palaces Gyeongbokgung, Changdeokgung, and Changgyeonggung were burned down, the palace Deoksugung was used as a temporary palace.[18] The heavy financial burden placed on China by this war, as well as two other wars in the south, adversely affected its military capabilities and partly contributed to the fall of the Ming Dynasty and the rise of the Qing Dynasty.[19] However, the sinocentric tributary system that Ming had defended was maintained by the Qing, and ultimately, the war resulted in a maintenance of the status quo - with the reestablishment of trade and the normalization of relations between all three parties. [20]"

fantic
Dec 9th, 2012, 05:05 PM
This war is pretty unique, because unlike Europe, where everybody fought each other ceaselessly :lol:
there was no major war comprising all 3 states. China usually had to contend with Northern 'Barbarians', and Japan was usually racked by continuous internal warfare. Korea? Not that 'martial' like Japan, we loved peace :lol: Of China, the 'continent' of China was their world, and big enough. No reason to trouble Korea or Japan, not worth the effort :lol:

Japan failed in 1592-8, but achieved their ambition much later, in the 20th century.

fantic
Dec 9th, 2012, 05:22 PM
Japanese Piracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wokou)

"were pirates of varying origins who raided the coastlines of China and Korea from the 13th century onwards. Originally, the Wokou were mainly soldiers, ronin, merchants and smugglers from Japan; however in later centuries most of the pirates actually originated in China.[1]

The early phase of Wokou activity began in the 13th century and extended to the second half of the 14th century. Pirates from Japan focused their raids on the Korean peninsula and spread across the Yellow Sea to China. Ming China implemented a policy to forbid civil trade with Japan while maintaining governmental trade, known as Haijin. The Ming court believed that limiting non-government trade would in turn expel the Wokou. Instead, it forced many Chinese merchants to trade with Japan illegally to protect their own interests. This led to the second major phase of Wokou activity which occurred in the early to mid-16th century, where Japanese pirates colluded with their Chinese counterparts and expanded their forces. "

No wonder Korea hates Japan, right? :lol: What GOOD did they do except pillaging, murdering, and destroying? Think of English and French, except that one side ALWAYS was the aggressor, even killing the Queen. EVEN when the victim nation BENEFITED the aggressor all those years culturally. Quite a thank-you, isn't it :lol:

"The earliest textual reference to the term "Wokou" as a Japanese invader comes from the Korean Gwanggaeto Stele erected in 414."

414!! That was erected in 414 so it means the piracy occurred years before :eek: So it's hardly exaggerating when we call Japan Pirate Nation :lol:

"In 1510, Japanese traders initiated an uprising against Joseon's stricter policies on Japanese traders from Tsushima and Iki coming to Busan, Ulsan and Jinhae to trade. The So Clan supported the uprising, but it was soon crushed by Korean army. The uprising was later came to be known as the "Japanese riots in three-ports" (삼포왜란, 三浦倭亂).

The Treaty of Imsin, restrictive treaty, was re-imposed under the direction of King Jungjong in 1512, but only under strictly limited terms, and only twenty-five ships were allowed to visit Joseon annually until "Japanese riots in Saryangjin" (사량진왜변, 蛇梁鎭倭變) in 1544.[7] In 1547, Treaty of Jeongmi was imposed, and Korea was on the alert for troubles by Japanese. In 1555, Wokou raided the coastal of Jeolla province, but it was soon crushed by Korean army again. The So Clan apologized to Korea for the riot of some pirates' acts, and requested the reopening of diplomatic relations. The Korean court complied with the request, and this relationship was maintained until Japanese invasions of Korea (1592–1598)."

Nothing but trouble, nothing but trouble :facepalm:

*JR*
Dec 9th, 2012, 05:49 PM
Really Truman made a tremendous mistake. Not only did he make a decision that killed INNOCENT LIVES, he gave Japan sort of an 'excuse', again, your bolded part accurately captures the Jap gov's intention.

Using the word "mistake" ovalooks 2 major reasons Truman decided to use the atomic bomb, without lets say letting top Japanese officials seeing a deserted Pacific atoll decimated first (as a demonstration of the destructive power of a single such bomb).

One was revenge for Pearl Harbor, seen in the US as a dastardly sneak attack, launched during negotiations in Washington. Another was to scare the Soviets, including regarding the US being ruthless enough not to do a "bloodless demonstration", in the kind of place nuclear tests were done until the 1963 Test Ban Treaty.

fantic
Dec 9th, 2012, 06:10 PM
I had a client once who was from Taiwan. He said all the Asian guys cheat on their wives, and the wives know it and depending on the culture, they accept it in varying degrees. I can't remember each of what he said, but he said the Japanese wife will stay up waiting for the cheater and have a bath drawn, the Chinese wife will be awake but pretend to be asleep and never say a word. I don't know that the other women do, I can't remember. He didn't appear to be kidding.

Also, we spent a few days in Korea, his Korean business contacts said it's a huge status symbol to be half Caucasian, and they are called "Ko-Mericans" and it's a big deal. His fiancé also cut up his food and fed it to him at the restaurant at the table. This couple was well into their 30s.

:haha:
You mean Asians are hornier than Europeans and Americans? Blasphemy! :lol:
After watching Western TV dramas and porno, one would think all Western married men have sex with neighbor's teenage girls :lol:
And if you read diaries of English elites in the 19th and 20th century, they all cheated with each other :lol:

Some Koreans and Japanese are horny though. Disguised as a biz trip, they in pack, travels to SE Asia to have sex, too :hysteric:

fantic
Dec 9th, 2012, 06:21 PM
Using the word "mistake" ovalooks 2 major reasons Truman decided to use the atomic bomb, without lets say letting top Japanese officials seeing a deserted Pacific atoll decimated first (as a demonstration of the destructive power of a single such bomb).

One was revenge for Pearl Harbor, seen in the US as a dastardly sneak attack, launched during negotiations in Washington. Another was to scare the Soviets, including regarding the US being ruthless enough not to do a "bloodless demonstration", in the kind of place nuclear tests were done until the 1963 Test Ban Treaty.

I'm not sure about the 1st one. They already raided Tokyo, in a daring attack earlier in the war.

http://classicwarmovies.com/posters_ww2/destination-tokyo-poster_2.jpg

Atomic bomb wasn't especially more 'cruel' compared to later Tokyo firebombing and RAF and USFA's firebombing of German cities including Dresden.

http://knightleyemma.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/dresden_dvd2.jpg

About the 2nd, maybe, but why reveal their secret weapon so early :lol: It just prompted Soviet to make bombs too :lol:

The biggest reason was of course to end the war sooner. They didn't want to sacrifice American soldiers, after the horrendous casualties during the occupation of all those small islands :hysteric: Some Naval generals argue that blockade would have accomplished the same, but who knows.

And Japan did receive warning beforehand, let's not forget that. EVEN after Hiroshima, they continued to fight :facepalm: They needed one more bombing to finally realize their impossible position.

fantic
Dec 9th, 2012, 06:28 PM
So Japanese adopted Western laws, customs, political institutions, military techniques, everything after the Meiji revolution in 1863.

They even adopted Top hat and coattails :hysteric:

Japanese delegates at VJ day

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VfK9qO7sL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA318_PIkin4,BottomRight,-18,-10_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

fantic
Dec 9th, 2012, 06:45 PM
Annals of the Joseon Dynasty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annals_of_the_Joseon_Dynasty)


"The Annals of the Joseon Dynasty (also known as The True Record of the Joseon Dynasty) are the annual records of the Joseon Dynasty, which were kept from 1413 to 1865. The annals, or sillok, comprise 1,893 volumes and are thought to cover the longest continual period of a single dynasty in the world. With the exception of two sillok compiled during the colonial era, the Annals are the 151st national treasure of Korea and listed in UNESCO's Memory of the World registry."

"Great care was taken to ensure the neutrality of the historiographers, who were also officials with legal guarantees of independence. Nobody was allowed to read the Sacho, not even the king, and any historiographer who disclosed its contents or changed the content could be punished with beheading. These strict regulations lend great credibility to these records.[3] "

As you see, Korea was pretty strong in philosophical and religious tracts, and history. The reason I compared Korea to Byzantium.

fantic
Dec 9th, 2012, 07:15 PM
Is there an East Asian equivalent of Shakespeare?

There is.

It's not Genji :lol:

Romance of the 3 kingdoms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_Of_Three_Kingdoms)

Everybody reads it. It's mostly about loyalty and friendship, but it is a veritable treasure trove for hundreds of proverbs and maxims, which teaches life-lessons for all time

"The novel is among the most beloved works of literature in East Asia,[4] and its literary influence in the region has been compared to that of the works of Shakespeare had on English literature.[5] It is arguably the most widely read historical novel in late imperial and modern China.[6]"

http://pds14.egloos.com/pds/200902/21/67/c0056067_499ed87fb0108.jpg

http://pds5.egloos.com/pds/200706/18/79/d0001879_05062352.jpg

One of the favorite characters, general Guan Yu, is even worshiped as a kind of deity?(god) in China.

*JR*
Dec 9th, 2012, 07:24 PM
I9HxGhIo-6k 0O2FYQ2Dy4Q v0UxJ2l8rmQ

fantic
Dec 9th, 2012, 07:29 PM
One literary output that tops it all, maybe the best novel of East Asia, will be this;

Dream of the Red Chamber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_of_the_Red_Chamber)

"composed by Cao Xueqin, is one of China's Four Great Classical Novels. It was written in the middle of the 18th century during the Qing Dynasty. It is considered a masterpiece of Chinese literature and is generally acknowledged to be the pinnacle of Chinese fiction. "Redology" is the field of study devoted exclusively to this work.[1]"

"Red Chamber is believed to be semi-autobiographical, mirroring the rise and decay of author Cao Xueqin's own family and, by extension, of the Qing Dynasty.[3] As the author details in the first chapter, it is intended to be a memorial to the women he knew in his youth: friends, relatives and servants. The novel is remarkable not only for its huge cast of characters and psychological scope, but also for its precise and detailed observation of the life and social structures typical of 18th-century Chinese aristocracy.[4]"

Halardfan
Dec 9th, 2012, 10:36 PM
Japanese Piracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wokou)

"were pirates of varying origins who raided the coastlines of China and Korea from the 13th century onwards. Originally, the Wokou were mainly soldiers, ronin, merchants and smugglers from Japan; however in later centuries most of the pirates actually originated in China.[1]

The early phase of Wokou activity began in the 13th century and extended to the second half of the 14th century. Pirates from Japan focused their raids on the Korean peninsula and spread across the Yellow Sea to China. Ming China implemented a policy to forbid civil trade with Japan while maintaining governmental trade, known as Haijin. The Ming court believed that limiting non-government trade would in turn expel the Wokou. Instead, it forced many Chinese merchants to trade with Japan illegally to protect their own interests. This led to the second major phase of Wokou activity which occurred in the early to mid-16th century, where Japanese pirates colluded with their Chinese counterparts and expanded their forces. "

No wonder Korea hates Japan, right? :lol: What GOOD did they do except pillaging, murdering, and destroying? Think of English and French, except that one side ALWAYS was the aggressor, even killing the Queen. EVEN when the victim nation BENEFITED the aggressor all those years culturally. Quite a thank-you, isn't it :lol:

"The earliest textual reference to the term "Wokou" as a Japanese invader comes from the Korean Gwanggaeto Stele erected in 414."

414!! That was erected in 414 so it means the piracy occurred years before :eek: So it's hardly exaggerating when we call Japan Pirate Nation :lol:

"In 1510, Japanese traders initiated an uprising against Joseon's stricter policies on Japanese traders from Tsushima and Iki coming to Busan, Ulsan and Jinhae to trade. The So Clan supported the uprising, but it was soon crushed by Korean army. The uprising was later came to be known as the "Japanese riots in three-ports" (삼포왜란, 三浦倭亂).

The Treaty of Imsin, restrictive treaty, was re-imposed under the direction of King Jungjong in 1512, but only under strictly limited terms, and only twenty-five ships were allowed to visit Joseon annually until "Japanese riots in Saryangjin" (사량진왜변, 蛇梁鎭倭變) in 1544.[7] In 1547, Treaty of Jeongmi was imposed, and Korea was on the alert for troubles by Japanese. In 1555, Wokou raided the coastal of Jeolla province, but it was soon crushed by Korean army again. The So Clan apologized to Korea for the riot of some pirates' acts, and requested the reopening of diplomatic relations. The Korean court complied with the request, and this relationship was maintained until Japanese invasions of Korea (1592–1598)."

Nothing but trouble, nothing but trouble :facepalm:

I think there is a fundemental difference between events which have taken place in living memory of some people such as World War 2 (in which Korea has legitimate cause for outrage)and events that took place many centuries ago.

Should I eye Scandanvian countries with suspicion because their dim and distant Viking ancestors raped, pillaged and occupied Britain for centuries? Should I harbour secret loathing for those Citizens of Normandy, in memory of the brutal occupation of William the Conqueror, or decry all things Italian because of the centuries of Roman occupation Britannia suffered?

Conflicts around the world are plagued by looking back too much, often to pasts just as distant as the ones I've mentioned. It's destructive. We should be aware these things but we shouldn't ruin the present because of the past.

dybbuk
Dec 9th, 2012, 10:42 PM
I have to say, I'm disappointed in fantic. I always respected him as one of the smarter posters in NT, but this thread has basically disolved into "Let's list all the bad things Japan has ever done, while simultaneously directly or indirectly saying all the great things Korea has done in comparison." This is not a thread about East Asia, it's just an outpouring of nationalistic sentiment. This is why I often times wish I had focused on China in my studies instead of Japan and Korea, if I had known the drama to come. If I had known.

wild.river
Dec 9th, 2012, 10:42 PM
:haha:
You mean Asians are hornier than Europeans and Americans? Blasphemy! :lol:
After watching Western TV dramas and porno, one would think all Western married men have sex with neighbor's teenage girls :lol:
And if you read diaries of English elites in the 19th and 20th century, they all cheated with each other :lol:

Some Koreans and Japanese are horny though. Disguised as a biz trip, they in pack, travels to SE Asia to have sex, too :hysteric:

isn't groping a major problem on japanese trains or is that just an urban myth? :unsure:

dybbuk
Dec 9th, 2012, 10:45 PM
isn't groping a major problem on japanese trains or is that just an urban myth? :unsure:

It's a problem in both Japan and Korea, Idk about China. There are special compartments on trains for women and children now to try and stop it.

fantic
Dec 9th, 2012, 11:47 PM
I have to say, I'm disappointed in fantic. I always respected him as one of the smarter posters in NT, but this thread has basically disolved into "Let's list all the bad things Japan has ever done, while simultaneously directly or indirectly saying all the great things Korea has done in comparison." This is not a thread about East Asia, it's just an outpouring of nationalistic sentiment. This is why I often times wish I had focused on China in my studies instead of Japan and Korea, if I had known the drama to come. If I had known.

What are you talking about? That wasn't my intention :lol: Of course as a Korean I wanted to mention Korean's nice literary legacy, but 'comparing' with Japanese brutality wasn't my intention. It is just what it is :lol:

And besides, of Japanese literary achievements you expounded already, so no need for me to add upon it. I'm sure others can contribute. And, you still didn't answer my question about Korea's divulging from Chinese-imitation literature and making their unique ones :lol: Well, it seems that you concentrated on Japanese lit., so maybe you don't know either :lol:

I mentioned Chinese classic novels and the hideous sight of Seoul. Is this pouring of nationalistic sentiments to you? :lol: Good day :p

fantic
Dec 10th, 2012, 12:17 AM
What I like most about Japan.

http://andrewsidea.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/tampopo1.jpg

The movie 'Tampopo' was shown at my university and I was shocked. Shocked with hunger :lol:

Korea ramen is more spicy and thus more suiting to my taste :lol: But Japanese ones with various ingredients are nice, too.

I was shocked to discover that Korean instant ramen was stacked in Seven-Eleven stores in Southern
California :lol:

http://c.ask.nate.com/imgs/qrsi.php/8965172/12053014/0/1/A/%EC%9C%A1%EA%B0%9C%EC%9E%A5%20%EC%82%AC%EB%B0%9C%E B%A9%B4.JPG

http://cfile30.uf.tistory.com/image/1710DE364E5F851F1BFEA4

Damn, I'm getting hungry just by looking at those pics :drool:

fantic
Dec 10th, 2012, 12:36 AM
And sushi, too.

Pity Americans doesn't like fish products much, don't they know Japan lives longest due to their diet on maritime produces? :lol:

I haven't read any Japanese literature, only this; I really liked it, read it on Korean translation so also bought an American one.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Ny5aEEFmL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

Oh I read Kokoro too, but wasn't that much impressed. I prefer 'I am a Cat' any day :lol:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41kTwXJyCfL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

fantic
Dec 10th, 2012, 12:51 AM
Zzazang noodle is a Koreanized dish from China :lol:

http://cfile1.uf.tistory.com/image/131789484F65F0BE18EE1C

Korean sausages(?)

http://rollingboom.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/f0059688_4a76e21088a5a1.jpg

fantic
Dec 10th, 2012, 01:00 AM
Why did I espouse a lot on Japanese atrocities? Just wanted to remind you guys of the HISTORICAL CONTEXT.

Why did Japan go road of an Imperialist path, moreover entering WWII?

Why does Koreans hate Japanese so much?

If you aren't just satisfied with blaming Japanese or Koreans 'simplistically' and want to probe more into it;

Look at history.

It's very easy to praise Japan on their astonishing achievements from the 19th century.
Just wanted to remind you guys of their 'dark side' :lol:

fantic
Dec 10th, 2012, 02:52 AM
I think there is a fundemental difference between events which have taken place in living memory of some people such as World War 2 (in which Korea has legitimate cause for outrage)and events that took place many centuries ago.

Should I eye Scandanvian countries with suspicion because their dim and distant Viking ancestors raped, pillaged and occupied Britain for centuries? Should I harbour secret loathing for those Citizens of Normandy, in memory of the brutal occupation of William the Conqueror, or decry all things Italian because of the centuries of Roman occupation Britannia suffered?

Conflicts around the world are plagued by looking back too much, often to pasts just as distant as the ones I've mentioned. It's destructive. We should be aware these things but we shouldn't ruin the present because of the past.

You're right, Serbians cited medieval history to justify their aggression during the civil war in the 1990s. :help:

But I was just stating the historical fact that Japan didn't benefit Korea :lol:

dybbuk
Dec 10th, 2012, 03:15 AM
Yeah, I get you wanted to show the dark side of Japan too. But you basically spent four pages going on about how barbaric Japan was/is and how advanced and cultured Korea was. But besides Leo (which is kind of trollish to begin with) no one was arguing Japan was perfect, so it got to be overkill, you know? :shrug: And come on, saying Seoul is dirty is not the same as saying Japan is barbaric, basically contributed nothing to Korea besides manga while Korea helped build them, and are all un-repentent and aggressive. Come on, you can see you weren't being exactly fair in your postings. If someone unacquainted with either were to read your posts, it would seem Korea was a poor, advanced, innocent country throughout its history and Japan is just a horrible bully. Come on, we all know how Korea would sometimes try and sneak territory from China when China was in the middle of a power shift. :p Japan is not perfect, but as someone who is around Japanese and Korean people every day, I can say I've met many Japanese people who don't deny what Japan did and are upset at the nationalistic undercurrent in Japan. And just posting about how shitty Japan can be does all the great people in Japan a disservice, and it doesn't contribute to any further understanding people Japan and Korea.

And you need to expand your Japanese reading. I didn't love either Kokoro nor Wagahai wa neko de aru. I'd recommend Kawabata, Mishima or Abe. Mishima is a crazy ultra-nationalist, but his writing is lovely and I personally find his crazy nationalistic tendencies fascinating. He basically turned his self-loathing about being a closeted homosexual into being a neo-samurai Go Go Nippon crazy. Then he killed himself on tv. He was a fruitloop of the best kind.

And about Korean literature, imo it's just hard to separate early Korean literature from Chinese literature because Korea imbued so much of Chinese thought into their own, far more than the Japanese did. There aren't huge texts in Japan espousing the virtues of Confucianism, like there are in Korea. Thus there's just a stronger influence there, and so naturally Japan's literature tends to be different, more early on. I won't say Korean literature didn't have it's own voice before, but I think the Japanese occupation is one of the best things to happen to Korean literature. Violence is often the best catalyst for artistic expression, and I think from there on there's completely a "Korean literature."

P.S. I hate Korean ramyeon. It's too spicy for me.

fantic
Dec 10th, 2012, 04:50 AM
Yeah, I get you wanted to show the dark side of Japan too. But you basically spent four pages going on about how barbaric Japan was/is and how advanced and cultured Korea was. But besides Leo (which is kind of trollish to begin with) no one was arguing Japan was perfect, so it got to be overkill, you know? :shrug: And come on, saying Seoul is dirty is not the same as saying Japan is barbaric, basically contributed nothing to Korea besides manga while Korea helped build them, and are all un-repentent and aggressive. Come on, you can see you weren't being exactly fair in your postings. If someone unacquainted with either were to read your posts, it would seem Korea was a poor, advanced, innocent country throughout its history and Japan is just a horrible bully. Come on, we all know how Korea would sometimes try and sneak territory from China when China was in the middle of a power shift. :p Japan is not perfect, but as someone who is around Japanese and Korean people every day, I can say I've met many Japanese people who don't deny what Japan did and are upset at the nationalistic undercurrent in Japan. And just posting about how shitty Japan can be does all the great people in Japan a disservice, and it doesn't contribute to any further understanding people Japan and Korea.

And you need to expand your Japanese reading. I didn't love either Kokoro nor Wagahai wa neko de aru. I'd recommend Kawabata, Mishima or Abe. Mishima is a crazy ultra-nationalist, but his writing is lovely and I personally find his crazy nationalistic tendencies fascinating. He basically turned his self-loathing about being a closeted homosexual into being a neo-samurai Go Go Nippon crazy. Then he killed himself on tv. He was a fruitloop of the best kind.

And about Korean literature, imo it's just hard to separate early Korean literature from Chinese literature because Korea imbued so much of Chinese thought into their own, far more than the Japanese did. There aren't huge texts in Japan espousing the virtues of Confucianism, like there are in Korea. Thus there's just a stronger influence there, and so naturally Japan's literature tends to be different, more early on. I won't say Korean literature didn't have it's own voice before, but I think the Japanese occupation is one of the best things to happen to Korean literature. Violence is often the best catalyst for artistic expression, and I think from there on there's completely a "Korean literature."

P.S. I hate Korean ramyeon. It's too spicy for me.

I know Mishima, was actually going to post a wiki page or photo of him :oh:

About the bolded part; oh, no :lol: 20th Century???! That's TOO late :sobbing: Confucianism is Confucianism, but I don't think it automatically extends to literature :shrug: At the LATEST, I would say..

Maybe this link will help

Silhak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silhak)

"Silhak was a Korean Confucian social reform movement in late Joseon Dynasty. Sil means "actual" or "practical," and hak means "studies" or "learning." It developed in response to the increasingly metaphysical nature of Neo-Confucianism (성리학) that seemed disconnected from the rapid agricultural, industrial, and political changes occurring in Korea between the late 17th and early 19th centuries."

"Its proponents generally argued for reforming the rigid Confucian social structure, land reforms to relieve the plight of peasant farmers, promoting Korea's own national identity and culture, encouraging the study of science, and advocating technology exchange with foreign countries.[5] Silhak scholars wanted to use realistic and experimental approaches to social problems with the consideration of the welfare of the people.[6] Silhak scholars encouraged human equality and moved toward a more Korean-centric view of Korean history.[5] The Silhak school is credited with helping to create a modern Korea."

fantic
Dec 20th, 2012, 05:56 AM
So Korea elects autocrat Park Chunghee's daughter as President. She was elected BECAUSE she was Park's daughter(Park was an autocrat, who served Japan as a soldier during WW2 and after coup e'tat ruled Korea as an autocrat for 18 yrs until 1979). She didn't achieve anything, and she's not even smart either (her nickname is pocketbook Princess, since she can't even debate without looking at her notes).

And what of Japan :lol: Both countries goes hand in hand, backwards :lol:

Well, mass gun slaughter like Newtown doesn't occur in Korea and Japan, if that's a small consolation :sobbing:

fantic
Dec 20th, 2012, 06:29 AM
It's like Hitler or Mussolini or Franco's daughter being elected as President.

There's no hope for Korea :sobbing:

dybbuk
Dec 20th, 2012, 02:21 PM
So Korea elects autocrat Park Chunghee's daughter as President. She was elected BECAUSE she was Park's daughter(Park was an autocrat, who served Japan as a soldier during WW2 and after coup e'tat ruled Korea as an autocrat for 18 yrs until 1979). She didn't achieve anything, and she's not even smart either (her nickname is pocketbook Princess, since she can't even debate without looking at her notes).

And what of Japan :lol: Both countries goes hand in hand, backwards :lol:

Well, mass gun slaughter like Newtown doesn't occur in Korea and Japan, if that's a small consolation :sobbing:

Such BS. I was hoping Korea would at least have enough sanity not to elect her. Japan electing Abe was bad enough, now we have both at the same time. :rolleyes: At very least it's slightly comforting that the LDP was elected on the basis of almost no one voting, not because Japan actually likes them or Abe.

Here's a thing I never get about Korea though. I've spoken to Korean friends my age, and none of them like Park Chung-hee. And from what I've heard from them it seems most younger people don't. So do the older generations really like him that much? Why? :confused: I get that many of them grew up starving and in poverty, so they would take national improvement from anyone, but is it really worth it to them that innocent people were tortured and killed under his leadership? And now his daughter can be elected even though she basically refuses to fully condemn her father for all the terrible things he did?

fantic
Dec 20th, 2012, 05:58 PM
Such BS. I was hoping Korea would at least have enough sanity not to elect her. Japan electing Abe was bad enough, now we have both at the same time. :rolleyes: At very least it's slightly comforting that the LDP was elected on the basis of almost no one voting, not because Japan actually likes them or Abe.

Here's a thing I never get about Korea though. I've spoken to Korean friends my age, and none of them like Park Chung-hee. And from what I've heard from them it seems most younger people don't. So do the older generations really like him that much? Why? :confused: I get that many of them grew up starving and in poverty, so they would take national improvement from anyone, but is it really worth it to them that innocent people were tortured and killed under his leadership? And now his daughter can be elected even though she basically refuses to fully condemn her father for all the terrible things he did?

Yes it is perplexing but Korea was always very conservative. You also have to factor NK in, too.

And, more importantly, the regional difference. Young-nam province, SE part of Korea, always vote Conservatively and they benefited from the dictatorship. Virtually all those military leaders came from that province too.
Moreover, their population is very big; hence, Conservatives always has a concrete bloc of votes.
It's like Texas and the South in U.S.

And of course, think about the 'Silent Majority'. Not all were against those military regimes, most of them were some opposition politicians and students.

And let's not forget that older gen. trumps younger gen. in voting :sobbing: Younger gen. doesn't really vote that enthusiastically as the older ones.

Also, DJ and MH gov essentially pursued neo-conservatist economic policy. Not THAT different from the conservatives. The restructuring prodded by IMF after that 1997 crisis led to exactly that path; some say declaring moratorium was better.. Conglomerate Samsung really began to dominate during MH years. And some even say that MH betrayed Korea by agreeing to so much unfair clauses in FTA and such. MH wasn't exactly friendly to labor, either.

fantic
Dec 20th, 2012, 06:22 PM
Also, unlike US, Korea has real media bias; 3 biggest papers are conservatives, it's like 75% of the whole pie. Generally speaking, Korea is even more conservative than US, methink.

fantic
Jan 2nd, 2013, 12:06 AM
So I was browsing that delightful book at BN,

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51hnYxVpAlL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

and on the world map(at the last page of the book, right before the backcover),

the so-called 'Sea of Japan' was printed differently; Mare Orientale :eek:

You want more blatant endorsement of 'Sea of Corea', check the penguin pbk or Oxford World
Classic's pbk of Gulliver's Travel; The map on the section of Laputa, I believe. :lol:

Classic literature seems to endorse different term than Sea of Japan :lol:

Lin Lin
Jan 2nd, 2013, 03:18 AM
:)

dybbuk
Jan 2nd, 2013, 04:10 AM
So I was browsing that delightful book at BN,

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51hnYxVpAlL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

and on the world map(at the last page of the book, right before the backcover),

the so-called 'Sea of Japan' was printed differently; Mare Orientale :eek:

You want more blatant endorsement of 'Sea of Corea', check the penguin pbk or Oxford World
Classic's pbk of Gulliver's Travel; The map on the section of Laputa, I believe. :lol:

Classic literature seems to endorse different term than Sea of Japan :lol:

I find the Sea of Japan/East Sea fight the most inane and pointless of all the fights going on in East Asia. It means literally nothing. Even though I personally believe Dokdo/Takeshima should be bombed (turned into a neutral wildlife preserve for aquatic life protected by both countires is my more measured opinion) at least it means SOMETHING. Whether or not the West calls the sea the Sea of Japan or the East Sea means really nothing at all.

fantic
Jan 2nd, 2013, 06:05 AM
Hey, I just wanted to share a precious information that I found on the book :lol:

Incidentally, Collins Atlas of the World prints both versions of the English Channel

ENGLISH CHANNEL
(LA MANCHE)

And of course, the more famous

STRAIT OF DOVER
(PAS DE CALAIS)

Now why do they trouble to do that? :confused: If it's so 'inane and pointless' ?

dybbuk
Jan 2nd, 2013, 06:30 AM
Obviously because it's a Western book for Western consumption and the English Channel is a historically important location in the Western world. It's unrealistic to expect people across the world to know two, three, four or more names for one location because different cultures call it different things. Hence why I said what does it matter what the West calls it, and why do Japan and Korea fight over what people not even from around the area in question call it?

Curious, do they teach multiple names for the English Channel and the Strait of Dover in Korea? Or is it just 영국 해협 and 도버 해협?

fantic
Jan 2nd, 2013, 06:47 AM
But I find parallel entries in non-Europe as well, in this Collins Atlas.

For example,

Korean Bay
(So-chaoson-man)

Yellow Sea
(Huang Hai)

Korea Strait
(Tsushima-kaikyo)

On your question, I don't remember if I was 'taught', but just knew it as 영국 해협 and 도버 해협 when I was young, like you mentioned :lol: Boy the French must be mad :lol:

I wonder what YOU would like to call it, the so-called 'Sea of Japan' :lol:

fantic
Jan 2nd, 2013, 06:55 AM
there's even a Wiki entry on this juicy topic :drool:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_of_Japan_naming_dispute

I guess Japan won't like 'East Sea' either, since it could mean East 'from' Korea :lol:

But really, Sea of Japan is too blatant, don't you think? I mean, look at the map. How can it be Sea of 'Japan'? :lol: Korean peninsula claims equal exposure :lol:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/91/Sea_of_Japan_naming_dispute.png/220px-Sea_of_Japan_naming_dispute.png

But curious about that 'Mare Orientale', I guess it was meant as East 'from' Europe, like Middle East, Far East..

LeRoy.
Mar 16th, 2013, 09:56 PM
http://www.scmp.com/comment/blogs/article/1186367/china-new-leadership-same-old-censorship


The new sessions of China’s parliament, which kicked off last Sunday, are widely regarded as the start of a new era of administration led by Xi Jinping and Li Keqiang, but the biggest challenge facing global observers is anticipating in what direction China is moving.
One thing was clear in the first week of meetings, according to mainland media insiders: press censorship is not going to ease.
On the contrary, some veteran journalists said the restrictions imposed on them before this year's parliamentary sessions were the most severe they had experienced.
“They [the propaganda departments] used only to tell us not to do something when there was news they considered sensitive; this year, they asked what we wanted to do then killed our story ideas in advance,” said a Beijing-based journalist who asked not to be named.
Some managers of mainland news portals told the South China Morning Post that they would have to follow strict rules during the sessions.
Before the opening ceremony of the National People’s Congress (NPC) and the Chinese People’s Political Consultative Conference (CPPCC), which are also called “lianghui” in China, several mainland journalists expressed their concerns to the Post, and what has happened since then proved their point.
On Sina Weibo, the most popular Chinese Twitter-style site, mainland netizens said the level of censorship was extreme.
If the combined surnames of the top leaders appear as a term, “Huwen” referring to Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabao and “Xili” referring to Xi Jinping and Li Keqiang, the posts are blocked. (Amusingly, the terms “Wenhu” and “Lixi” survive the censorship system.)
A Beijing-based newspaper editor complained on Twitter about her own experience on Tuesday. “I added the smiley-face logo when reposting a lyric by Jay Chou, and my post was deleted.” It turned out that the lyric, about a eunuch bowing when stepping down from the stage, was probably regarded as a satire on Wen, who bowed three times after delivering his last working report on Tuesday morning.
The censors even banned topical stories that had nothing to do with lianghui and the state leaders.
A two-month-old baby was choked to death by a car thief in Changchun, Jilin province, on Monday (March 4). After the thief turned himself in the next day, millions of netizens expressed outrage online, blaming not only the cold-blooded murderer but also China’s culture and education systems for shaping the attitude of the car thief.
Meanwhile, propaganda authorities asked media outlets not to publish follow-up stories on the tragedy.
The tough censorship restrictions imposed in the first week of lianghui have undermined the high expectations that many mainland journalists and netizens had since Xi Jinping became party secretary in November.
For about two months, dozens of corrupt officials, some high-ranking, were exposed by the public online, which triggered speculation that Xi might use online tools to help tackle worsening corruption in the party.
Now, the best mainland journalists can hope for in terms of press freedom after lianghui is that Beijing’s censorship returns to its pre-lianghui level.

Sam L
Mar 16th, 2013, 10:25 PM
Three laughs at Tiger Brook


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Huxisanxiaotu.jpg

LeRoy.
Mar 16th, 2013, 10:27 PM
Number of dead pigs found in Shanghai river rises to 3,323 (http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1188204/number-dead-pigs-found-shanghai-river-rises-3323)

Fears over drinking water after discovery of rotting animals

Chinese officials have found a total of 3,323 dead pigs in a Shanghai river as of Monday afternoon and discovered swine virus in one of them, but they have stressed that the disease is not known to be infectious to humans.

The virus is known as Pocine Circovirus type 2, or PCV-2, a statement posted on Shanghai Agricultural Commission’s official account on China’s Twitter-like Sina Weibo said on Monday morning. The statement stressed the virus is not known to cause disease in humans but noted China had seen an increasing occurrence of this kind of virus causing sickness in pigs.

On Thursday, dead pigs were found floating at the Songjiang district section of the Huangpu River that flows through Shanghai. The city’s Water Authority reported the number of dead pigs found to be 3,323 as of Sunday evening, local internet portal Xinmin.cn (http://shanghai.xinmin.cn/tfbd/2013/03/11/19150081.html) reported on Monday morning.

The commission conducted tests on multiple organs from five samples, and found the virus present in one sample, while ruling out five other commonly seen diseases, it said in a statement.

The city’s water authority said it had closely monitored the quality of tap water since the dead pigs were discovered and said the water quality remained “normal”, state media Xinhua reported.
After the sick pigs died [they] just dumped them in the river…Constantly. Every day.

Based on the labels found on the dead pigs’ ears, officials said the pigs were raised in Jiaxing, Zhejiang province, which is located on the upper reaches of Huangpu River.

Jiaxing local media reports last week said more than 18,000 pigs from one village had died from illness in the last two months. The reports have sparked fears that residents dumped all of the diseased animals in the river.

CCTV reported local residents near Huangpu River saying that dumping dead, diseased pigs in the river was common practice. “After the sick pigs died [they] just dumped them in the river…Constantly. Every day,” one villager said.

“They are everywhere, and smell very bad,” another said.

Popular blogger and angel investor Xue Manzi on Monday morning criticised the government on China’s Twitter-like Sina Weibo (http://weibo.com/charlesxue) for deliberately blocking the news about the dead pigs in Jiaxing, suggesting a connection between the two.

“Over ten thousand pigs died, but only 1,200 of them were found in Huangpu River. Where were the rest of the dead pigs?” he asked in the post which was retweeted for more than 23,000 times as of Monday afternoon.

PhilePhile
Mar 16th, 2013, 10:50 PM
AUTHORITIES in Shanghai plucked 611 dead pig carcasses yesterday from the Huangpu River, bringing a total of 8,965 dead pigs found in the river since March 8.

- Shanghai Daily (http://www.shanghaidaily.com/nsp/Metro/2013/03/17/Weather%2Bblamed%2Bas%2Bdead%2Bpig%2Bnumbers%2Bnea r%2B9000/), 2013-3-17


Jiaxing, the birth city of the Communist Party of China, sending messages to the capitalist pigs of Shanghai?

Seriously, I think it is a protest - likely because of corruption in the industry.

fantic
May 19th, 2013, 04:38 PM
http://media.economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/print-cover-full/print-covers/20130518_cna400.jpg

Leader; Abe's Master Plan (http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21578044-shinzo-abe-has-vision-prosperous-and-patriotic-japan-economics-looks-better)

There was also recently (last Sunday?) an article at WSJ about China vs Japan nationalism.

Halardfan
May 19th, 2013, 11:26 PM
Japanese nationalists, Hashimoto and Ishihara have been competing to see who can be more foolishly nationalistic...

First Hashimoto again made stupid comments about the so-called comfort women, saying how they were necessary and the largely voluntary etc...then Ishihara criticized him, not for that, but becuase Hashimoto had mentioned Japanese aggression took place in the war. Ishihara, laughably denies any such aggresion took place!

I believe that teaching of the history of the war has long been inadequate in Japan, and this plays a role in all this. Many Japanese have little notion of the reasons for Chinese and Korean grievences about the war simply because it is only briefly addressed in schools

njnetswill
Dec 26th, 2013, 02:21 AM
Japan PM Shinzo Abe visits Yasukuni WW2 shrine

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25517205

Things are about to get ugly.

Sam L
Dec 26th, 2013, 08:10 AM
Dog commemoration statue at Yasukuni Shrine

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/Yasukuni_Bronze_Dog.jpg/800px-Yasukuni_Bronze_Dog.jpg

Horse commemoration shrine at Yasukuni

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1b/Yasukuni_Bronze_Horse.JPG/800px-Yasukuni_Bronze_Horse.JPG

Carrier Pigeon commemoration shrine at Yasukuni

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/85/Yasukuni_Bronze_Carrier_Pigeon.JPG/800px-Yasukuni_Bronze_Carrier_Pigeon.JPG

fantic
Jan 1st, 2014, 11:54 AM
Japan PM Shinzo Abe visits Yasukuni WW2 shrine

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25517205

Things are about to get ugly.

Japan will never change.

fantic
May 26th, 2014, 06:14 AM
WSJ article (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303749904579576791226602678?mg=ren o64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB1000 1424052702303749904579576791226602678.html).

So, they're now resorting to terrorism; will it work? Indiscriminate bombing by both sides at WWII didn't really have an effect they intended to...(Londoners didn't quit, Germany also carried on the war till the end).

And, China has many fissure lines, not only nationalism; between wealthy(coast) and poor(inland), Communist regime and potential middle class that might want more political freedom, etc..

Should be interesting how the elites will cope with those fundamental problems. Will China fracture in the future? Who knows.

*JR*
May 26th, 2014, 02:00 PM
^ Regarding China, its quite decentralized on a day to day level, a big reason so many student protest leaders escaped the country after Tien An Men Square 1989. President Xe will probably do re. the Uighars what his new BFF Vlad did with the Chechens: appoint a strongman from their ethnic group to run the "domestic portfolio" there.

BTW, shouldn't we be discussing the outrageous military coup in Thailand ITT?

fantic
May 26th, 2014, 04:40 PM
You can discuss Thai, I don't really much know about it. But is Thai 'East Asia'?

LeonHart
May 26th, 2014, 09:20 PM
there's even a Wiki entry on this juicy topic :drool:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_of_Japan_naming_dispute

I guess Japan won't like 'East Sea' either, since it could mean East 'from' Korea :lol:

But really, Sea of Japan is too blatant, don't you think? I mean, look at the map. How can it be Sea of 'Japan'? :lol: Korean peninsula claims equal exposure :lol:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/91/Sea_of_Japan_naming_dispute.png/220px-Sea_of_Japan_naming_dispute.png

But curious about that 'Mare Orientale', I guess it was meant as East 'from' Europe, like Middle East, Far East..

It's called Sea of Japan in Japanese, Chinese and English. Only Koreans called it East Sea :lol: