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View Full Version : Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?


Morrissey
Dec 3rd, 2012, 06:23 PM
Why is it taboo on this board to discuss sexuality? Being gay is not a bad thing and being gay more than just having sex just like being straight is more than having sex. When the media focus on heterosexual tennis players getting married to a pro NHL player such as Elena Dementieva nobody says anything.

When straight tennis players like Kim Clijsters gets married has a baby the press can't stop gushing about her amazing comeback to win 3 grand slam singles titles.

However, nobody also says anything when the WTA tour creates this campaign where the female tennis players have to dress up and try to look as feminine as possible. Seems like to me the WTA is actually trying to push a heterosexual image to the general public which isn't a bad thing. However, it does seem like the WTA is trying to sell female sexuality to attain more media attention and public support. But the WTA only places emphasis on maintaining a heterosexual image I think lesbians are discouraged to come out in women's tennis now.

In the past, some of the greatest female tennis players to every play the game are lesbian. Martina Navratilova, Billie Jean King, Amelie Mauresmo broke down barriers by being out and proud. All three of these women are Wimbledon champions.

For millions of gay people, we look at Martina Navratilova, Billie Jean King and Amelie Mauresmo with pride because they lived their lives on their own terms. Mauresmo didn't lose any endorsements when she came out either.

I can't help but wish the ATP Tour had the same kind of thing. Nobody has come out in men's tennis since Von Cramm and Bill Tilden in the 1920s and 1930s.

Since pro tennis is an individual sport one would think a gay male tennis player would not have any barriers to come out. He doesn't answer to team mates because he's not on a team he's his own man.

Tennis fans know who most of the lesbian tennis stars are yet nobody can name a current top male tennis player who is gay. Why is that?

Stonerpova
Dec 3rd, 2012, 06:31 PM
There's typically more homophobia towards gay men than lesbians.

And even though they don't have to deal with teammates they do have to deal with endorsements and sponsorships.

miffedmax
Dec 3rd, 2012, 06:35 PM
Discussion is one thing. Threads that turn into unsubstantiated rumor mills based on insight like footwear choice are another and will be closed.

Sammo
Dec 3rd, 2012, 06:38 PM
Gambill is gay and everyone knows that

Tripp
Dec 3rd, 2012, 06:41 PM
I know from a very good source of a certain ATP player who is gay :oh: It's just not profitable to be out of the closet these days.

duhcity
Dec 3rd, 2012, 06:42 PM
Wouldn't this make more sense as a thread at MTF?

And the WTA sells female sexuality for sure, but I doubt any player who has serious resistance to being presented that way would be forced into dress and makeup by the WTA.

n1_and_uh_noone
Dec 3rd, 2012, 06:44 PM
I think it should be OK for the top stars to come out because they pretty much have it made. Must be real awkward for a gay pro to come out on the ATp if he is not ranked very high, what with common locker rooms and males generally being more aggressive in their attitudes to sexuality. Also tennis players are quite conservative overall, being narrow-minded in their focus from a small age and growing up with a small group of people around them, so I can imagine it must be hard to find solidarity among your peers.

ptkten
Dec 3rd, 2012, 06:58 PM
It's because straight women generally are more accepting than straight men are of gay people. The men's locker room would be much more hostile to a gay man than the women's locker room would be/is to a lesbian. Plus, I do think there probably are more lesbians on the tennis tour in general than there are gay men.

timafi
Dec 3rd, 2012, 07:09 PM
thread BAIT and TROLL

Jimmie48
Dec 3rd, 2012, 07:14 PM
More interesting than the whole ATP thing is the other issue you`ve mentioned, how the WTA has actually become less accepting of lesbian players over time.

It's absurd, the western world has gotten a lot more accepting and yet the world's most important women's sport association seems to be backtracking even though some of their biggest champions have been gay.

For some reason, lesbian tennis players don't come out anymore, Mauresmo was pretty much the last notable one. Of course, it is technically possible that since then none of the players have been gay but given the normal percentage among women that's very, very unlikely. There have to be at least 3-4 lesbian players in the Top 50 but they obviously don't feel like their surroundings are accepting enough to be open about it.

Mistress of Evil
Dec 3rd, 2012, 07:19 PM
They are afraid of Tipsarevic punching them?

I know from a very good source of a certain ATP player who is gay :oh: It's just not profitable to be out of the closet these days.

You must spill that tea or it didn't happen.

n1_and_uh_noone
Dec 3rd, 2012, 07:21 PM
given the normal percentage among women that's very, very unlikely. There have to be at least 3-4 lesbian players in the Top 50 but they obviously don't feel like their surroundings are accepting enough to be open about it.

We do know of some (at least doubles stars). I don't know of a single ATP player, any format, when the percentages dictate there should be a few.

Jimmie48
Dec 3rd, 2012, 07:26 PM
I think it all boils down to corporate pressure. If you look at who earns the most in terms of endorsements, it's those players who are most "streamlined" to what corporations want... and being gay is obviously the opposite of that.

Noten
Dec 3rd, 2012, 07:27 PM
But do ALL tennis fans really accept lesbian players? 'Cause me thinks they do not.
You just have to look at how defensive some people get about the subject to see that such assertion is simply not true.

#1SteffiGraf#1
Dec 3rd, 2012, 07:31 PM
It makes plenty of sense.

WTA = "strong is beautiful", right?

Bismarck.
Dec 3rd, 2012, 07:31 PM
More interesting than the whole ATP thing is the other issue you`ve mentioned, how the WTA has actually become less accepting of lesbian players over time.

It's absurd, the western world has gotten a lot more accepting and yet the world's most important women's sport association seems to be backtracking even though some of their biggest champions have been gay.

For some reason, lesbian tennis players don't come out anymore, Mauresmo was pretty much the last notable one. Of course, it is technically possible that since then none of the players have been gay but given the normal percentage among women that's very, very unlikely. There have to be at least 3-4 lesbian players in the Top 50 but they obviously don't feel like their surroundings are accepting enough to be open about it.

Lesbian players coming out has never been common on the WTA.

Ana'sProcess
Dec 3rd, 2012, 07:33 PM
Because man's world can be very mean when it comes to sexuality. And obviously we are talking about serious money in tennis world, so... no one wants to lose it. But, it will change in 5-10 years. I expect first ATP player who admits he is gay to become actually a big star and even to become very attractive for sponsors.

Kon.
Dec 3rd, 2012, 07:52 PM
While in WTA they are out of the closet? List the countess out lesbians in the tour.
I don't see players in either tour coming out lately.

Petkorazzi
Dec 3rd, 2012, 07:53 PM
The lockerroom is a very scary place already, so I imagine it'd be hell for someone out of the closet.

Jimmie48
Dec 3rd, 2012, 07:54 PM
While in WTA they are out of the closet? List the countess out lesbians in the tour.
I don't see players in either tour coming out lately.

There are none who are officially out as far as I know, it's all hearsay and shouldn't be part of this topic.

C. Drone
Dec 3rd, 2012, 07:56 PM
More interesting than the whole ATP thing is the other issue you`ve mentioned, how the WTA has actually become less accepting of lesbian players over time.
Do you talk actual things or just speaking out of your mind as usual?

And how is WTA's fault when someone like Hingis or Tipsarevic attacking Mauresmo? And what could/should WTA actually do? Announce "lesbian of the week" on their website?

It's absurd, the western world has gotten a lot more accepting and yet the world's most important women's sport association seems to be backtracking even though some of their biggest champions have been gay.

Backtracking how?


For some reason, lesbian tennis players don't come out anymore, Mauresmo was pretty much the last notable one. Of course, it is technically possible that since then none of the players have been gay but given the normal percentage among women that's very, very unlikely. There have to be at least 3-4 lesbian players in the Top 50 but they obviously don't feel like their surroundings are accepting enough to be open about it.
Bring the facts before, dont just throw around names.

Jimmie48
Dec 3rd, 2012, 07:59 PM
Bring the facts before, dont just throw around names.

I didn't mention a single name, do you really need to poison every single topic with your petty attacks against me?

Kon.
Dec 3rd, 2012, 08:00 PM
There are none who are officially out as far as I know, it's all hearsay and shouldn't be part of this topic.

I know. I said that to show there actually aren't any. ;)
That's why I don't see why some people in this thread assume tennis fans accept lesbian players significantly more than ATP gay ones.

C. Drone
Dec 3rd, 2012, 08:01 PM
It's because straight women generally are more accepting than straight men are of gay people. The men's locker room would be much more hostile to a gay man than the women's locker room would be/is to a lesbian. Plus, I do think there probably are more lesbians on the tennis tour in general than there are gay men.

All this, especially first sentence. Really big part of tennis audience is middle-aged men, probably least accepting part of demography (not counting older ppl).

C. Drone
Dec 3rd, 2012, 08:03 PM
I didn't mention a single name, do you really need to poison every single topic with your petty attacks against me?

Then why mention Mauresmo and using her as the "last known" example? :weirdo:

Jimmie48
Dec 3rd, 2012, 08:04 PM
Because she's the last major player that is known to a broad sport audience that has come out, it's a simple fact.

Nicolás89
Dec 3rd, 2012, 08:06 PM
Simple, because in our sexist world lesbians = hot, gay males = disgusting :shrug:

C. Drone
Dec 3rd, 2012, 08:08 PM
Because she's the last major player that is known to a broad sport audience that has come out, it's a simple fact.

So the only ones who count are slam champions? :tape:

Jimmie48
Dec 3rd, 2012, 08:11 PM
So the only ones who count are slam champions? :tape:

No but those obviously have more to lose in terms of endorsements etc. An out player ranked #272 will hardly cause any media attention.

Could you try any harder to put words in my mouth?

C. Drone
Dec 3rd, 2012, 08:26 PM
No but those obviously have more to lose in terms of endorsements etc. An out player ranked #272 will hardly cause any media attention.

Could you try any harder to put words in my mouth?

So the players just greedy?

really sorry, it was in your mouth already.

Jimmie48
Dec 3rd, 2012, 08:28 PM
I'm sorry but it's hilarious how desperately you're trying to be offended by anything I say :lol:

Noten
Dec 3rd, 2012, 08:29 PM
Simple, because in our sexist world lesbians = hot, gay males = disgusting :shrug:
Not true at all. A 'lesbian' is only seen as hot as long as she fulfils the straight male fantasies (eg. is willing to fuck 'em) that's hardly acceptance.

C. Drone
Dec 3rd, 2012, 08:32 PM
I'm sorry but it's hilarious how desperately you're trying to be offended by anything I say :lol:

are you lesbian? :speakles:

dybbuk
Dec 3rd, 2012, 08:37 PM
There are none who are officially out as far as I know, it's all hearsay and shouldn't be part of this topic.

What do you define as out? Coming out and announcing it to the world? Then no. But there have been many recent players who everyone knew were lesbians, like Obziler for instance who had a baby with her partner. There are "officially out" players, it just so happens very few top players atm, and lower ranked players like Obziler aren't going to make a huge statement about it.

dybbuk
Dec 3rd, 2012, 08:41 PM
And the answer to this thread is simple. Society is sexist, being seen as feminine is negative and a sign of weakness. Many straight men make the incorrect assumption that being gay means you are feminine. Being seen as masculine is, while not necessarily seen as positive, is more acceptable. The different ways gay men and gay women are often treated from each other stems from society equating gayness with femininity, then femininity with weakness and negativity.

Morrissey
Dec 3rd, 2012, 08:48 PM
Amelie Mauresmo did not lose any endorsements when she came out in fact she is a hero in France for being the first French woman since the 1920s to be Wimbledon champion. Mauresmo is adored in France and respected by the French people. Yes, money or the fear of losing endosements could be a reason top players remain in the closet. But if the media found out, wouldn't that hurt a company that would strip a player of endosement money by coming out? I have to believe in the year 2012, a company that would cut ties with an openly gay player would get bad press.

It does seem like everything is going in reverse on the WTA. Notice the recent WTA championships and all the top 8 players getting their makeup done, wearing gowns ect. Back in the 1990s, at the WTA championships I don't think they did that. This whole glam thing is new, to indicate to the audience that these fit female tennis players are still feminine and still can present a heterosexual image to male consumers. I find it odd that the WTA is trying to appeal to heterosexual men and not appeal to straight women or the gay community who support women's tennis.

Also, there is a current tennis champion top 10 player on the WTA who is a lesbian everyone knows she's gay she lives in a glass closet. This particular top player isn't hiding she's got a girlfriend she simply doesn't feel the need to come out which is disappointing I believe.

And it makes me wonder, why it is so easy to identify the lesbian tennis players yet on the ATP Tour the general public is lead to believe all the top guys are heterosexual and have model type girlfriends. There's got to be one guy in the top 20 who is gay or bisexual.

nathanj594
Dec 3rd, 2012, 08:54 PM
I hate to throw in names to this, but does anyone remember back in like '07 or '08 when Richie Gasquet kept denying that he was gay even though the rumors about his sexuality (dating that banker old guy or something like that) died like a year prior to his comments? It was something like "Yea, I don't have a girlfriend, just male friends...but I'm not gay." Why would he have to sit there and defend that when no one brought it up in the first place? My point is that I wonder that there has to be something fishy going on in the ATP that somehow frowns on being open. Just conspiracies of course, but if that's true, then that is really sad. =[ Us gay male tennis fans (there's plenty of us) would love a male role model.

miffedmax
Dec 3rd, 2012, 09:01 PM
It's also true that in various professions, various groups are over- and underrepresented, often as a result of bias, perceived opportunity, etc. Examples being in the NBA, blacks are significantly overrepresented, while in Fortune 500 boardrooms they are severely underrepresented. For any number of reasons, it's possible that lesbians are reflectively or overrepresented in the WTA while gay men are underrepresented in the ATP and other professional sports.

I am not suggesting that gay men can't be athletic, as obviously there are some excellent gay athletes. However, one could certainly see that hostility, the somewhat neanderthalic code of male sporting culture, etc. might discourage many gay men from pursuing any sport at its higher levels. This perpetuates the vicious circle, driving a less supportive culture for gay male athletes.

(And I'm not saying all straight men who play sports are neanderthals. I just know from having played sports and having sons who played sports there is a lowest common denominator element at work that makes it very hard for even straight males of a reasonably straight sort to put up with some of the crap that goes on in the locker room). At least IMHO.

darrinbaker00
Dec 3rd, 2012, 09:15 PM
Also, there is a current tennis champion top 10 player on the WTA who is a lesbian everyone knows she's gay she lives in a glass closet. This particular top player isn't hiding she's got a girlfriend she simply doesn't feel the need to come out which is disappointing I believe.

Just who might that be, Orville?

alex.2812
Dec 3rd, 2012, 09:21 PM
I hate to throw in names to this, but does anyone remember back in like '07 or '08 when Richie Gasquet kept denying that he was gay even though the rumors about his sexuality (dating that banker old guy or something like that) died like a year prior to his comments? It was something like "Yea, I don't have a girlfriend, just male friends...but I'm not gay." Why would he have to sit there and defend that when no one brought it up in the first place? My point is that I wonder that there has to be something fishy going on in the ATP that somehow frowns on being open. Just conspiracies of course, but if that's true, then that is really sad. =[ Us gay male tennis fans (there's plenty of us) would love a male role model.

In France, lots of men tend to justify themselves for not being gay. We often hear men saying "I don't have a girlfriend but I'm not gay" or "I'm not gay but I think this man is not handsome". I've heard it a bit abroad but not as much as in France.

espana
Dec 3rd, 2012, 09:54 PM
I think a player can benefit from revealing that he's gay. Look at Frank Ocean - before he revealed he's gay he was basically unknown, but after, he became a huge star, his album was released early due to high demand from fans - it went #1 on iTunes, he got invited to lots of shows and music awards. It's expected that he'll be nominated for several Grammys and other musicians praised him for coming out. I think the first one to come out could potentially really benefit from it. Society is more acceptable of gays & lesbians than ever.

sweetadri06
Dec 3rd, 2012, 10:03 PM
Martina Navartilova was one of the first to set the precedent for lesbian women in sports, even though it's still not talked about alot, it's more accepted than gay men.

espana
Dec 3rd, 2012, 10:19 PM
Just who might that be, Orville?

Stosur

nathanj594
Dec 3rd, 2012, 11:18 PM
In France, lots of men tend to justify themselves for not being gay. We often hear men saying "I don't have a girlfriend but I'm not gay" or "I'm not gay but I think this man is not handsome". I've heard it a bit abroad but not as much as in France.

I guess it's like the American "no homo" thing. Didn't think of it that way. Ahhhh the world and her various customs. :)

Jimmie48
Dec 3rd, 2012, 11:21 PM
are you lesbian? :speakles:

Yep, and a very, very butch one at that.

Tripp
Dec 3rd, 2012, 11:58 PM
Come to think about it, I do see a pretty big market for the first guy to come out of the closet. Not only would gay tennis fans root for him (and there are more than plenty, just look at this forum), but let's say someone ranked #80 comes out. He'd get endorsements and contracts he couldn't possibly dream of signing if he were just another pro tennis player. He could be made a spokesperson for gay sportsmen all over the world and yeah, it would be a havey burden to carry on your shoulders, but I'd also mean loads of money. And let's face it, most pro tennis players care a lot about it. More money means better training conditions, better coaches, and therefore better chances of making it to the top.

Wimbledon9
Dec 4th, 2012, 12:09 AM
Martina was never a closet case you can ask Chris Evert, but she had to keep her mouth shut because homosexuality was a reason not to give her an american passport yes very enlightened country.
In 1978 the year she won her first title at Wimbledon a tabloid journalist tried to bribe a chambermaid to let him in her room when Martina was not there to see if she was there alone.

When she finally got her passport six years after her defection she talked to that American journalist about her sexuality but then she had the problem of girlfriend Nancy Lieberman who did not want to come out which was an obstacle.

Billy Jean King was forced out through the trial with that girlfriend Marilyn Barnett but still denied she was a lesbian was very easy because she was married to Larry King. She stayed in the closet till she was 51.

Martina opened the door for the tennisplayers in Czechoslowakia so they got it easier to play everywhere but she had to go through that door first at great cost leaving her family behind.
She also was the one top athlete to come out at great financial cost but she always said being totally free and honest made her a better player.

MB.
Dec 4th, 2012, 03:55 AM
Come to think about it, I do see a pretty big market for the first guy to come out of the closet. Not only would gay tennis fans root for him (and there are more than plenty, just look at this forum), but let's say someone ranked #80 comes out. He'd get endorsements and contracts he couldn't possibly dream of signing if he were just another pro tennis player. He could be made a spokesperson for gay sportsmen all over the world and yeah, it would be a havey burden to carry on your shoulders, but I'd also mean loads of money. And let's face it, most pro tennis players care a lot about it. More money means better training conditions, better coaches, and therefore better chances of making it to the top.

I agree with this, mostly. Send it to Grigor Dimitrov's team.

darrinbaker00
Dec 4th, 2012, 03:56 AM
Come to think about it, I do see a pretty big market for the first guy to come out of the closet. Not only would gay tennis fans root for him (and there are more than plenty, just look at this forum), but let's say someone ranked #80 comes out. He'd get endorsements and contracts he couldn't possibly dream of signing if he were just another pro tennis player. He could be made a spokesperson for gay sportsmen all over the world and yeah, it would be a havey burden to carry on your shoulders, but I'd also mean loads of money. And let's face it, most pro tennis players care a lot about it. More money means better training conditions, better coaches, and therefore better chances of making it to the top.

Where would these endorsements come from, pray tell?

moby
Dec 4th, 2012, 05:14 AM
Where would these endorsements come from, pray tell?

He couldn't do worse being the 80th ranked player anyway.

Xian
Dec 4th, 2012, 05:32 AM
why do "tennis fans" just accept that it's not their business whether someone is gay or not? The whole gossip about players being gay is just wishful thinking and more or less disgusting

Royals.
Dec 4th, 2012, 06:48 AM
Stosur

I thought so too, how about Errani? Her and Vinci are VERY close. :oh: :oh:

Beat
Dec 4th, 2012, 07:51 AM
Why is it taboo on this board to discuss sexuality?

it's not taboo, it's just fucking annoying and disrespectful when posters make assumptions about players without knowing anything.

Gambill is gay and everyone knows that

a) he's retired. b) i don't think he every stated this openly, has he?

to answer the initial queston: all sports - yes, even tennis - are saturated by a laddish attitude, which makes it much harder for men than for women to come out.

vixter
Dec 4th, 2012, 08:30 AM
There are probably a few gay tennis players around that doesn't make a secret of their sexuality. But if you are not a huge media profile ranked in the top 10, what sense does it make to have a big official "coming out", nobody would care

That being said I also don't think there are that many. Maybe a couple bi :)

Pops Maellard
Dec 4th, 2012, 12:30 PM
There are probably a few gay tennis players around that doesn't make a secret of their sexuality. But if you are not a huge media profile ranked in the top 10, what sense does it make to have a big official "coming out", nobody would care

That being said I also don't think there are that many. Maybe a couple bi :)
There's bound to be some. In say the top 100 there could be around 5 or so :p.

I can see why they wouldn't come out though. I bet there are a lot of potentially difficult ATP players - I mean we already know of some. And even if it would be nice if they did, why should they? They're probably like Maria and keep tennis and private life separate :).

Volcana
Dec 4th, 2012, 12:54 PM
This is simply about money. You average player, a non-star, still has shoe deals and racket deals and deals to give off season clinics. And homophobia can adversely affect their ability to get those things. So when you start rumors so-and-s0 is gay, you don't know how their parents, their church, their others employers or their relatives may feel about that. They player who want to make announcements about it, have done so. The players who just live their lives out of the closet, have no doubt been asked about it, have answered, and it's part of the public record.

An apt comparison is what was called 'passing', back in the day. Very light-skinned Blacks in the USA who live their lives as whites, thus avoiding all the white racism and outright terrorism that came with being Black in the USA. other Black folks didn't start rumors that that person was really Black. They were making a sacrifice to avoid suffering, and potentially death. We understood that. It's the same deal for gays.

chuvack
Dec 4th, 2012, 01:27 PM
Jan-Michael Gambill had a pretty good following in his day, and he never denied the rumors...

And another one Jim Courier, great looking guy, got 50 million dollars in the bank, 45 years old and never married, never seen in public with girlfriend, no kids...

Volcana
Dec 4th, 2012, 03:33 PM
Jan-Michael Gambill had a pretty good following in his day, and he never denied the rumors...Why should he respond to rumors at all?

And another one Jim Courier, great looking guy, got 50 million dollars in the bank, 45 years old and never married, never seen in public with girlfriend, no kids...Rarely seen in public period, when he's not working. Also, how do you know he has no kids?

More to the point though, if he's gay and doesn't want to be public about it, that's his right. Where's the harm?

dybbuk
Dec 4th, 2012, 04:07 PM
why do "tennis fans" just accept that it's not their business whether someone is gay or not? The whole gossip about players being gay is just wishful thinking and more or less disgusting

:rolleyes: I am 100% behind the idea that no player should be outed against their will, and no player should be forced to come out of the closet. But this "Why do you care?!" thing is such BS. People care because society is heteronormative and the fact is, yes, it would be amazing and beneficial in numerous ways for a top player to be gay. Instead of bitching about people "caring" people should bitch about the fact society has created this system that encourages straight people to have their love life out in the public eye, but discourages the same thing for gay people.

V-MAC
Dec 4th, 2012, 04:54 PM
I'm sure there are lots of "open secrets" on the ATP tour about the sexuality of certain players, and other sports too for that matter:shrug:
But yes it is sad they can't be completely open about it.

The Dawntreader
Dec 4th, 2012, 05:07 PM
There are inevitably going to be a huge number of ATP and WTA gays. It's naive however to not understand what the hesitations and restrictions are when it comes to professional sportsmen and women 'coming out'.

I mean look how shallow and vapid the media culture is over the WTA these days regarding grunting. If Female tennis players are scrutinised relentlessly over such irrelevant and trivial things as that, there is already a disincentive for WTA pro's to illuminate their private lives, especially controversial subject matters such as their sexuality, into the public domain. I don't think the press is that accepting at all. Look how they distorted Mauresmo's coming out.

For male ATP players, it'd be even worse. We live in a very pro-masculine society especially when it comes to spot, where gay men are often seen as disassociated from sports. They are often perceived as effeminate, and ultimately alien to these masculine grand narratives we see in sports specifically. I mean could you imagine if a top 5 ATP player came out as gay? The ATP that brands their players as warriors, promoting this robust, dominant image of masculinity, and then suddenly having to reconcile with someone not adhering to these ideals. Imagine the types of repercussions on the player, simply for addressing his own sexuality publicly.

It doesn't just happen in sport either, but it's the most glaring and disturbing example of self-suppression of sexuality, purely because the culture of sport is so crude and brazen with stereotype.

DeucesAreWild
Dec 4th, 2012, 05:36 PM
There are inevitably going to be a huge number of ATP and WTA gays. It's naive however to not understand what the hesitations and restrictions are when it comes to professional sportsmen and women 'coming out'.

I mean look how shallow and vapid the media culture is over the WTA these days regarding grunting. If Female tennis players are scrutinised relentlessly over such irrelevant and trivial things as that, there is already a disincentive for WTA pro's to illuminate their private lives, especially controversial subject matters such as their sexuality, into the public domain. I don't think the press is that accepting at all. Look how they distorted Mauresmo's coming out.

For male ATP players, it'd be even worse. We live in a very pro-masculine society especially when it comes to spot, where gay men are often seen as disassociated from sports. They are often perceived as effeminate, and ultimately alien to these masculine grand narratives we see in sports specifically. I mean could you imagine if a top 5 ATP player came out as gay? The ATP that brands their players as warriors, promoting this robust, dominant image of masculinity, and then suddenly having to reconcile with someone not adhering to these ideals. Imagine the types of repercussions on the player, simply for addressing his own sexuality publicly.

It doesn't just happen in sport either, but it's the most glaring and disturbing example of self-suppression of sexuality, purely because the culture of sport is so crude and brazen with stereotype.

I'd go one step further. It could be the public having to reconcile with their own notions. You could have a gay man that may exemplify that warrior persona, but the public not buy it based on their perception of 'gay'. Therefore, even a macho gay guy could still lose out.

The Dawntreader
Dec 4th, 2012, 06:22 PM
I'd go one step further. It could be the public having to reconcile with their own notions. You could have a gay man that may exemplify that warrior persona, but the public not buy it based on their perception of 'gay'. Therefore, even a macho gay guy could still lose out.

Exactly. The contradictions are disgusting.

timafi
Dec 4th, 2012, 06:35 PM
Jan-Michael Gambill had a pretty good following in his day, and he never denied the rumors...

And another one Jim Courier, great looking guy, got 50 million dollars in the bank, 45 years old and never married, never seen in public with girlfriend, no kids...

Jim Courier's WIFE
http://cornedbeefhash.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/jim-courier-usopen08.jpg

http://photos.ennvy.com/wp-content/uploads/Jim-Courier-41.png

jj74
Dec 4th, 2012, 06:42 PM
If a tennis player come out, and he is good enough, he will make a lot of money in endorsements. Sports doesn't evolve that much, but society does, and the firms knows what is profitable.
And a tennis player can make a good living even without enodorsements if he (or she) is good.
Of course there's a lot of reasons to not doing it, because it adds a lot of extra pressure. But for some people, specially new generations, stay in the closet is not an options, and there's a lot of people who can't truly reach their whole potential keeping that kind of secret.

On the other way, there's a lot of hollywood actors dating fake girlfriends, and that's a supposed pro gay place, so it's obvious that it's not an easy step

jj74
Dec 4th, 2012, 07:00 PM
I think a player can benefit from revealing that he's gay. Look at Frank Ocean - before he revealed he's gay he was basically unknown, but after, he became a huge star, his album was released early due to high demand from fans - it went #1 on iTunes, he got invited to lots of shows and music awards. It's expected that he'll be nominated for several Grammys and other musicians praised him for coming out. I think the first one to come out could potentially really benefit from it. Society is more acceptable of gays & lesbians than ever.

That's not exactly true. Frank was well known in hip hop because he was a member of Odd future, and he has some high profile colaborations like Beyonce. It was a good buzz about him and his talent way before Channel Orange was released.
He came out (well that wasn't exactly a coming out) because he was very honest in his lyrics, so anybody who hear the album will know that some of the lyrics talk about men.
The fact that the reviews of the album were great probably help him to have good sales.

I think sooner or later a player will decide to come out, but it has to be because he really feels better doing it. Right now most young talented players are struggling to reach their potential, and coming out (in the case that one of them is gay) will be a big distraction.
And it depends of personality, some mentioned Richard Gasquet, i don't know if he is gay or not, but he is exactly the kind of player who won't come out of the closet, because the guy is very shy and he won't be comfortable aswering questions.

Coming out of the closet is not the same that talking about your private life, saying that you are gay is not giving more information that saying that you are straight, but we know how press works, so the guy who decides to come out must be ready to that.

But the Frank Ocean comparision is good in some sense, a year ago nobody could think that someone linked to hip hop (he is more a r&b singer) will come out, and even less, have success after that. So who knows what is going to happen in a near future. There are rugby players that came out, and in a sports team is far more difficult than in an individual team.

I think the first high profile athlete to come out it will be a tennis player, because is an individual sport (so basically it will be his decision) and because it's a sport well payed. People on individual sports who depends of endorsements are less likely to come out (even with the fact that firms will not retire the endorsements, because that will be very bad publicity), and the same in sport that depends of jury (like gymnastics).

Zamboni
Dec 4th, 2012, 07:56 PM
it's not taboo, it's just fucking annoying and disrespectful when posters make assumptions about players without knowing anything.
It's no more annoying and disrespectful than speculating about which player is dating which guy (in case of WTA)/girl (ATP). Unless of course you include a moral judgement.

Morrissey
Dec 4th, 2012, 08:17 PM
Look at the WTA we all know who the lesbians are we don't have to guess. People pretty much have a good idea. It seems odd on the ATP Tour that no one can identify who the gay men are besides Jan Michael Gambill. There has to be someone at least two guys in the top 100 who are gay.

I will be honest, I prefer if a gay male tennis player to come out that he's someone that is actually a GOOD PLAYER. I mean, lets be real here would Billie Jean King and Martina Navaratilova or Amelie Mauresmo coming out get a lot of press if they weren't tennis champions? Because Martina, Amelie, and Billie Jean were top players when they came out I think it helped tennis fans to accept lesbian tennis players. The public realized in the end it doesn't matter if these women are gay because they simply respect them as tennis players.

So, I think for the ATP TOUR if a gay guy comes out I don't want someone ranked like 200 in the world or 500 to come out. It needs to be someone hopefully in the top 50 in the world or higher. Someone that has a name, and is recognizned by the tennis fans as a good player.

Also, tennis is an INDIVIDUAL SPORT, look at the boxer Orlando Cruz he came out of the closet and it never hurt his boxing career by coming out. Orlando Cruz is also a top boxer in the featherweight division he got a lot of press by coming out.

So, in men's tennis since it is also an INDIVIDUAL SPORT, there should be less for these guys to worry about. The ATP pros aren't team mates they are individuals doing their own thing. So it should be easier for a male tennis pro to come out.

Morrissey
Dec 4th, 2012, 08:25 PM
it's not taboo, it's just fucking annoying and disrespectful when posters make assumptions about players without knowing anything.



a) he's retired. b) i don't think he every stated this openly, has he?

to answer the initial queston: all sports - yes, even tennis - are saturated by a laddish attitude, which makes it much harder for men than for women to come out.

So it is disrespectful to discuss homosexuality but not heterosexuality? Don't fans on this board talk about the straight tennis players love lives and relationships and getting married or having children? So why the double standard for gay people?

And why is heterosexuality considered PUBLIC and not taboo yet homosexuality is considered something to be quiet about and be private?

vixter
Dec 4th, 2012, 08:56 PM
So it is disrespectful to discuss homosexuality but not heterosexuality? Don't fans on this board talk about the straight tennis players love lives and relationships and getting married or having children? So why the double standard for gay people?

And why is heterosexuality considered PUBLIC and not taboo yet homosexuality is considered something to be quiet about and be private?

Speculating which players might be gay based on rumors or appearance is not the same as discussing homosexuality in general. :rolleyes:

Although here on the forum I think we can speculate freely. This is not like a newspaper or something... :D

madmax
Dec 4th, 2012, 09:00 PM
I find it funny how you guys are so eager and desperate to "OUT" a Top tennis player - just because arround 5% of population is homosexual, doesn't mean that there should 5 gay guys or gay girls in TOP 100 too...law of averages doesn't work like that I'm afraid. And even if there are some homosexual players in the lower ranks, nobody cares about them coming out anyway. If some elite tennis player was truly gay, we would have a good clue about it in this age of globalisation and social media...end of

Jimmie48
Dec 4th, 2012, 09:00 PM
Look at the WTA we all know who the lesbians are we don't have to guess. People pretty much have a good idea.

I'm pretty sure people would be wrong in a lot of instances. People always go for stereotypes and pretend they know stuff.. "she has short hair and looks a bit masculine, she must be a lesbian".

That does not always have to be wrong but I'm pretty sure there's feminine lesbian players out there absolutely nobody would suspect. If you think you can tell by just looking at them you`re fooling yourself, people aren't walking stereotypes.

StoneRose
Dec 4th, 2012, 09:05 PM
I'm pretty sure people would be wrong in a lot of instances. People always go for stereotypes and pretend they know stuff.. "she has short hair and looks a bit masculine, she must be a lesbian".

That does not always have to be wrong but I'm pretty sure there's feminine lesbian players out there absolutely nobody would suspect. If you think you can tell by just looking at them you`re fooling yourself, people aren't walking stereotypes.This.

Kon.
Dec 4th, 2012, 09:07 PM
I find it funny how you guys are so eager and desperate to "OUT" a Top tennis player - just because arround 5% of population is homosexual, doesn't mean that there should 5 gay guys or gay girls in TOP 100 too...law of averages doesn't work like that I'm afraid. And even if there are some homosexual players in the lower ranks, nobody cares about them coming out anyway. If some elite tennis player was truly gay, we would have a good clue about it in this age of globalisation and social media...end of

So your conclusion is that most likely there are almost no gay players.
Hm, so how that makes more sense than a few of them being gay if, as you said, 5% of the population is homosexual?
And do you honestly not see how it is possible to keep your sexuality private?

dybbuk
Dec 4th, 2012, 09:13 PM
I find it funny how you guys are so eager and desperate to "OUT" a Top tennis player - just because arround 5% of population is homosexual, doesn't mean that there should 5 gay guys or gay girls in TOP 100 too...law of averages doesn't work like that I'm afraid. And even if there are some homosexual players in the lower ranks, nobody cares about them coming out anyway. If some elite tennis player was truly gay, we would have a good clue about it in this age of globalisation and social media...end of

I call BS on so much of this. First of all, the likelihood of you being out/anyone knowing obviously varies from country to country. There would be every chance for a player from China being gay and no one knowing it. Even in the US there are still some celebrities who came out who nobody knew were LGBT before they did. Secondly, don't pass off 5% as if it's some fact. A great many studies put it higher, and it's just impossible to measure accurately as long as we live in an age that discourages people from being open about their sexuality.

Jimmie48
Dec 4th, 2012, 09:16 PM
If some elite tennis player was truly gay, we would have a good clue about it in this age of globalisation and social media...end of

Trust me, that is another misconception. Talking about social media in general, it actually works in the opposite way as it gives famous people a powerful tool to control what you know about them.

I sometimes work with people who have rather large follower bases on social media and most of them are very very aware how every word they say there multiplies. Smart people can actually use social media to their advantage to have a degree of control over how they`re being viewed, every time some Hollywood-bimbo "accidentally" tweets something usually means that it's on purpose and to draw attention to them. If you think that you know everything about someone just because they have a Twitter or Facebook account you`re fooling yourself.

By your logic, nobody in today's world can be in the closet anymore since we all use social media. That's of course nonsense, there's tens of thousands of famous people around the world who aren't out for one reason or another.

madmax
Dec 4th, 2012, 09:23 PM
I call BS on so much of this. First of all, the likelihood of you being out/anyone knowing obviously varies from country to country. There would be every chance for a player from China being gay and no one knowing it. Even in the US there are still some celebrities who came out who nobody knew were LGBT before they did. Secondly, don't pass off 5% as if it's some fact. A great many studies put it higher, and it's just impossible to measure accurately as long as we live in an age that discourages people from being open about their sexuality.

you are right - I don't know the exact numbers
just like you can't be sure about any guy in TOP 50 or even TOP 100 being gay. So what do you call this "witch hunt" then? A desperate attempt of identifying with some pro athlete? Why would any gay person even need that? All it tells is that you guys are incredibly insecure when it comes to sexuality matters and need all kinds of confirmation from some obscure sportspeople to make you feel better.

DigitalCipher
Dec 4th, 2012, 09:33 PM
I think it's interesting because for nearly 100 years there is Bill Tilden (I dont know if he was offically out or just that "old hollywood" every one knew kind of thing) and a player ranked in the 300s openly gay. For the last 80+ years, even after retirement, being out in the top 100 it's just nonexistent. I find it odd since there have been football and baseball players that have come out after retirement. I mean to each their own it's more fascinating than anything.

Morrissey
Dec 5th, 2012, 03:09 AM
Yeah why do people always make the conclusion there are no gay men in the top 20 of the ATP Tour? I believe somebody I don't know who there has to be at least two to four guys who are gay or bisexual in the ATP top 50. And the gay guy that does come out PLEASE be a higher ranked player. Nothing is more annoying than reading an interview of someone who is ranked 300, and comes out and is on the challenger circiut and not a star. In order for the public to accept gay and lesbian tennis stars it would help if the player was a higher ranked player not a lower ranked player.

Trickle
Dec 5th, 2012, 04:21 AM
Also, there is a current tennis champion top 10 player on the WTA who is a lesbian everyone knows she's gay she lives in a glass closet. This particular top player isn't hiding she's got a girlfriend she simply doesn't feel the need to come out which is disappointing I believe.


Have some sympathy. You know very well there is one drumbeating homophobe standing in her way who has made it very clear she thinks that lesbians have ruined the WTA tour. And plus she is a private person, so I don't see why she should even address.

As for this whole topic, I think that players who are closeted are afraid to come out because they'll feel like a walking target and I don't think the pressure will be easy to deal with. Sport is way different to entertainment. You have enough pressure trying to win matches but to be seen as 'the gay one', which let's face it... that's the perception that they will get if they do come out. I don't understand where people think all these new endorsements will come from? They certainly won't come from big corporations in socially conservative countries.

Jan Michael Gambill was always an outlier to me. He openly confessed to being a fan of Cher and Reba McEntire back in the day and as sad and silly as it sounds to profile him based on this, I remember asking people about this back in the early 2000s on a fansite of his and noone seemed bothered by it. It was this aura of "He's probably gay... so what?". I don't know if it was a product of the time back then, how low-key and non-effective the internet was with the small chatroom and dial up internet... but it was so refreshing in hindsight. Now fast forward to nowadays where everything would go viral and be over analysed to death. You would be too scared about the risk of loss, whether social or financial.

Truly think about it. If it was a WTA player, she'd probably be okay with the odd comment here and there from Maggie but she would have role models in Martina, BJK and Amelie and the fact that straight girls are just more open-minded. But if it was an ATP player. Noone. Just one dead guy who was branded a pedophile because of the time. Verbal lashing after verbal lashing in the lockerroom. Made the butt of jokes. Snide comments. Janko 'Mauresmo is a pervert' Tipsarevic on his case. Who knows. That's just the lads lad type of atmosphere.

Easier said then done.

Royals.
Dec 5th, 2012, 04:34 AM
I'm pretty sure people would be wrong in a lot of instances. People always go for stereotypes and pretend they know stuff.. "she has short hair and looks a bit masculine, she must be a lesbian".

That does not always have to be wrong but I'm pretty sure there's feminine lesbian players out there absolutely nobody would suspect. If you think you can tell by just looking at them you`re fooling yourself, people aren't walking stereotypes.

This.

effedcamel
Dec 5th, 2012, 05:25 AM
Yeah why do people always make the conclusion there are no gay men in the top 20 of the ATP Tour? I believe somebody I don't know who there has to be at least two to four guys who are gay or bisexual in the ATP top 50. And the gay guy that does come out PLEASE be a higher ranked player. Nothing is more annoying than reading an interview of someone who is ranked 300, and comes out and is on the challenger circiut and not a star. In order for the public to accept gay and lesbian tennis stars it would help if the player was a higher ranked player not a lower ranked player.

HOW IDIOTIC - so it's pointless and unhelpful for someone ranked 300 in the world to do come out of the closet with lukewarm media interest....:rolleyes: Every person that chooses to come out is doing a service to LGBTs in driving acceptance, some may have bigger impacts, but your attitude is basically saying the only ones that should/matter in coming out are stars.

Morrissey
Dec 6th, 2012, 07:08 AM
HOW IDIOTIC - so it's pointless and unhelpful for someone ranked 300 in the world to do come out of the closet with lukewarm media interest....:rolleyes: Every person that chooses to come out is doing a service to LGBTs in driving acceptance, some may have bigger impacts, but your attitude is basically saying the only ones that should/matter in coming out are stars.

Do you live in the real world? Yes, I am saying that a tennis star coming out would have MORE social value and importance than some NOBODY ranked 300 in the world. A player ranked 300 in the world is a player who has proven he or she cannot compete with THE BEST. A 300 ranked player is so far from the real action at the grand slams and regular ATP and WTA events. A player ranked 300 is too low ranked to even qualify for the grand slams or masters events.

We lived in a celebrity obsessed culture whether you like it or not. In the real world, people who are SUCCESSFUL in professional sport command MORE media attention. I think you know this. If a top 10 or top 20 ATP Pro came out of the closet he would get tremendous media attention. Even a guy ranked in the top 50 could make a difference. But a guy or lady ranked 300 in the world sorry that's somebody who is NOT ONE OF THE BEST.

It would shatter a lot of stereotypes if a top ATP tennis pro ranked in the top 20 or top 50 came out he would prove a gay man can succeed at the highest level in pro tennis. Same thing for a lesbian tennis pro, there is currently one lesbian grand slam champion in the top 10 but she doesn't want to come out of the closet. IF this lady did come out I think she could make a world of difference for gay rights but she choses to be a coward and chooses to not come out.

Your attitude sounds rather naive and simplistic if you think the world is going to care about some NOBODY ranked 300 coming out. Celebrity status trumps everything,the media aren't going to care about some low ranked player ranked 300 in the world ocming out. A higher profile tennis pro would get more media attention, more publicity and really would make a difference for gays in sports. In order to get respect a gay or lesbian tennis player would have to be HIGHER RANKED.


It would prove that gays and lesbians can compete at the HIGHEST LEVEL of sport. Why do you think Martina and Billie Jean King or Amelie Mauresmo command so much respect as lesbian tennis pioneers? These women proved that as lesbians they can also be great TENNIS CHAMPIONS. And that matters A LOT.


A player ranked 300 is someone who isn't that good of a tennis player and if you think that's not PC to say too bad.
To be a good tennis pro is someone ranked in the top 100 because that's the benchmark from being a decent solid pro to the journeyman and women on the challenger circuit.

Morrissey
Dec 6th, 2012, 07:22 AM
Have some sympathy. You know very well there is one drumbeating homophobe standing in her way who has made it very clear she thinks that lesbians have ruined the WTA tour. And plus she is a private person, so I don't see why she should even address.

As for this whole topic, I think that players who are closeted are afraid to come out because they'll feel like a walking target and I don't think the pressure will be easy to deal with. Sport is way different to entertainment. You have enough pressure trying to win matches but to be seen as 'the gay one', which let's face it... that's the perception that they will get if they do come out. I don't understand where people think all these new endorsements will come from? They certainly won't come from big corporations in socially conservative countries.

Jan Michael Gambill was always an outlier to me. He openly confessed to being a fan of Cher and Reba McEntire back in the day and as sad and silly as it sounds to profile him based on this, I remember asking people about this back in the early 2000s on a fansite of his and noone seemed bothered by it. It was this aura of "He's probably gay... so what?". I don't know if it was a product of the time back then, how low-key and non-effective the internet was with the small chatroom and dial up internet... but it was so refreshing in hindsight. Now fast forward to nowadays where everything would go viral and be over analysed to death. You would be too scared about the risk of loss, whether social or financial.

Truly think about it. If it was a WTA player, she'd probably be okay with the odd comment here and there from Maggie but she would have role models in Martina, BJK and Amelie and the fact that straight girls are just more open-minded. But if it was an ATP player. Noone. Just one dead guy who was branded a pedophile because of the time. Verbal lashing after verbal lashing in the lockerroom. Made the butt of jokes. Snide comments. Janko 'Mauresmo is a pervert' Tipsarevic on his case. Who knows. That's just the lads lad type of atmosphere.

Easier said then done.

But, it has been done, equality doesn't happen overnight I agree. But if things are going to get better each generation has to make the effort and take that step forward. Amelie Mauresmo was able to come out because of Martina Navratilova and Billie Jean King.

If things are going to get better then someone needs to take a stand. Amelie Mauresmo came out at the tender age of 19 in 1999 before she was a star. Mauresmo did a lot of good for lesbians in women's tennis and had the respect of her peers. Mauresmo never lost any of her endosements.

Someone needs to be courageous, and not be a coward. For instance, a particular top 10 lesbian WTA player has a decent personality yet she seems a bit timid I feel. She's been attacked by her fellow female tennis players in the press yet refuses to address the issue head on she chooses to circumvent it which is sad. This lady's peers clearly have made homophobic comments in relation to her sexuality in the press yet instead of being brave and taking on the homophobes she doesn't.

There is homophobia in women's tennis still and I think if this top 10 lesbian tennis pro actually addressed head on the bad treatment she received she would make a lot of progress for LGBT people in tennis.

Navratil
Dec 6th, 2012, 08:41 AM
What's your point?

Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

or

Is the WTA creating a heterosexual image?

Navratil
Dec 6th, 2012, 08:44 AM
To answer the thread title...

WTA -> Lesbians -> prejudice: strong

ATP -> Gays -> prejudice: weak

It's pretty much the opposite in show business. Big advantage for gays. But when it comes to sport, it might be difficult to get respect though I think it's time to have a gay sport star!

David Barker
Dec 6th, 2012, 09:59 AM
Why is it taboo on this board to discuss sexuality? Being gay is not a bad thing and being gay more than just having sex just like being straight is more than having sex. When the media focus on heterosexual tennis players getting married to a pro NHL player such as Elena Dementieva nobody says anything.

When straight tennis players like Kim Clijsters gets married has a baby the press can't stop gushing about her amazing comeback to win 3 grand slam singles titles.

However, nobody also says anything when the WTA tour creates this campaign where the female tennis players have to dress up and try to look as feminine as possible. Seems like to me the WTA is actually trying to push a heterosexual image to the general public which isn't a bad thing. However, it does seem like the WTA is trying to sell female sexuality to attain more media attention and public support. But the WTA only places emphasis on maintaining a heterosexual image I think lesbians are discouraged to come out in women's tennis now.

In the past, some of the greatest female tennis players to every play the game are lesbian. Martina Navratilova, Billie Jean King, Amelie Mauresmo broke down barriers by being out and proud. All three of these women are Wimbledon champions.

For millions of gay people, we look at Martina Navratilova, Billie Jean King and Amelie Mauresmo with pride because they lived their lives on their own terms. Mauresmo didn't lose any endorsements when she came out either.

I can't help but wish the ATP Tour had the same kind of thing. Nobody has come out in men's tennis since Von Cramm and Bill Tilden in the 1920s and 1930s.

Since pro tennis is an individual sport one would think a gay male tennis player would not have any barriers to come out. He doesn't answer to team mates because he's not on a team he's his own man.

Tennis fans know who most of the lesbian tennis stars are yet nobody can name a current top male tennis player who is gay. Why is that?

WELL SAID

bjurra
Dec 6th, 2012, 10:38 AM
This is simply about money. You average player, a non-star, still has shoe deals and racket deals and deals to give off season clinics. And homophobia can adversely affect their ability to get those things. So when you start rumors so-and-s0 is gay, you don't know how their parents, their church, their others employers or their relatives may feel about that. They player who want to make announcements about it, have done so. The players who just live their lives out of the closet, have no doubt been asked about it, have answered, and it's part of the public record.

No shoe or racquet manufacturer would stop sponsering a player because he/she comes out of the closet. That would be PR suicide.

bjurra
Dec 6th, 2012, 10:39 AM
To answer the thread title...

WTA -> Lesbians -> prejudice: strong

ATP -> Gays -> prejudice: weak



But there are hardly any openly gay WTA players...

bjurra
Dec 6th, 2012, 10:47 AM
Yeah why do people always make the conclusion there are no gay men in the top 20 of the ATP Tour? I believe somebody I don't know who there has to be at least two to four guys who are gay or bisexual in the ATP top 50. And the gay guy that does come out PLEASE be a higher ranked player. Nothing is more annoying than reading an interview of someone who is ranked 300, and comes out and is on the challenger circiut and not a star. In order for the public to accept gay and lesbian tennis stars it would help if the player was a higher ranked player not a lower ranked player.

Because it seems highly unlikely that anyone in the top 20 is gay.

1. Most of them have girlfriends or wives. 50 years ago, gay men might have gone through the trouble to have an official female partner in order to submit to the norms of society. In 2012, gay men might be quiet about it but I seriously doubt they arrange a fake relationship, unless they are a Hollywood actor or an American politician.

2. If 5% of all males are gay, that means that statistically 1 player in the top 20 is gay. But that is only if top 20 players are an average of the population (which they are not) and if gay men are as inclined to elite sport as the average male (which they are not).

nevetssllim
Dec 6th, 2012, 11:26 AM
Do you live in the real world? Yes, I am saying that a tennis star coming out would have MORE social value and importance than some NOBODY ranked 300 in the world. A player ranked 300 in the world is a player who has proven he or she cannot compete with THE BEST. A 300 ranked player is so far from the real action at the grand slams and regular ATP and WTA events. A player ranked 300 is too low ranked to even qualify for the grand slams or masters events.

We lived in a celebrity obsessed culture whether you like it or not. In the real world, people who are SUCCESSFUL in professional sport command MORE media attention. I think you know this. If a top 10 or top 20 ATP Pro came out of the closet he would get tremendous media attention. Even a guy ranked in the top 50 could make a difference. But a guy or lady ranked 300 in the world sorry that's somebody who is NOT ONE OF THE BEST.

It would shatter a lot of stereotypes if a top ATP tennis pro ranked in the top 20 or top 50 came out he would prove a gay man can succeed at the highest level in pro tennis. Same thing for a lesbian tennis pro, there is currently one lesbian grand slam champion in the top 10 but she doesn't want to come out of the closet. IF this lady did come out I think she could make a world of difference for gay rights but she choses to be a coward and chooses to not come out.

Your attitude sounds rather naive and simplistic if you think the world is going to care about some NOBODY ranked 300 coming out. Celebrity status trumps everything,the media aren't going to care about some low ranked player ranked 300 in the world ocming out. A higher profile tennis pro would get more media attention, more publicity and really would make a difference for gays in sports. In order to get respect a gay or lesbian tennis player would have to be HIGHER RANKED.


It would prove that gays and lesbians can compete at the HIGHEST LEVEL of sport. Why do you think Martina and Billie Jean King or Amelie Mauresmo command so much respect as lesbian tennis pioneers? These women proved that as lesbians they can also be great TENNIS CHAMPIONS. And that matters A LOT.


A player ranked 300 is someone who isn't that good of a tennis player and if you think that's not PC to say too bad.
To be a good tennis pro is someone ranked in the top 100 because that's the benchmark from being a decent solid pro to the journeyman and women on the challenger circuit.

But an aspiring pro regardless of sexual orientation would still have to start on the lower echelons of the circuit in order to make the main tour. Surely with more out players regardless of where they are ranked might help to give some confidence to younger players and help to weaken the heterosexual hegemony in tennis. Okay, this is probably a bit idealistic but I don't see how coming out just because they aren't a superstar could be deemed as 'unhelpful.'

Volcana
Dec 6th, 2012, 12:36 PM
No shoe or racquet manufacturer would stop sponsering a player because he/she comes out of the closet. That would be PR suicide.Unless it's Venus, Serena or Maria Sharapova, are you even going to know? Also, the company doesn't have to announce why they aren't extending an endorsement deal. Companies didn't announce they weren't using Navratilova as a product rep because she was gay. She just didn't have any endorsements.

Volcana
Dec 6th, 2012, 12:49 PM
Also, there is a current tennis champion top 10 player on the WTA who is a lesbian everyone knows she's gay she lives in a glass closet. This particular top player isn't hiding she's got a girlfriend she simply doesn't feel the need to come out which is disappointing I believe.Once more, the deadly 'everyone knows'.

'Everyone' DOESN'T 'know that'. Most fans don't 'know' that. Hell, I'm as big a fan of women's tennis as there is, and I don't even know who you're referencing. And I don't CARE. My interest in players off-court lives begins and ends with how they train (or don't). A lot of sports fans in a lot of sports are like that. I live and work surrounded by fans of the (American football) New York Giants. They can, and do, talk about them for hours, day after day after day. And it's almost all about on the field minutae. Baseball, cycling, mma, golf, it's all the same. Most fans don't care about the player's private lives. (Unless it affects their game.)

chuvack
Dec 6th, 2012, 01:09 PM
Morrissey ignores the basic observation that, by nature:

1) Lesbian women are inclined toward sports, while

2) Gay men are inclined away from sports.

This creates a big selection bias in the tennis player (and all pro sports) sample.

Jimmie48
Dec 6th, 2012, 01:10 PM
1) Lesbian women are inclined toward sports, while



Is that so? One could think so by looking at all the openly gay footballers etc but I feel this is just another stereotype.

bjurra
Dec 6th, 2012, 01:14 PM
Is that so? One could think so by looking at all the openly gay footballers etc but I feel this is just another stereotype.

I once dated a female rugby player and she said they were two straight players in the team. Obviously rugby is an extreme sport but I think this is not just a stereotype.

Jimmie48
Dec 6th, 2012, 01:17 PM
Well, by that logic we would have to assume that even more tennis players than just the average among women in general are gay then.

madmax
Dec 6th, 2012, 01:48 PM
Well, by that logic we would have to assume that even more tennis players than just the average among women in general are gay then.

well, that's pretty much the case, yeah...
while not even counting Stosur's case, we still know about the likes of Hercog and Danilidou from TOP 100. And that's forgetting numerous gay doubles players as well. Female tennis always attracted homosexual crowd, like it or not...

Beat
Dec 6th, 2012, 04:00 PM
Morrissey ignores the basic observation that, by nature:

1) Lesbian women are inclined toward sports, while

2) Gay men are inclined away from sports.

This creates a big selection bias in the tennis player (and all pro sports) sample.

sorry, what?

gulzhan
Dec 6th, 2012, 04:44 PM
Morrissey ignores the basic observation that, by nature:

1) Lesbian women are inclined toward sports, while

2) Gay men are inclined away from sports.

This creates a big selection bias in the tennis player (and all pro sports) sample.

+1

Level55
Dec 6th, 2012, 05:37 PM
Morrissey ignores the basic observation that, by nature:

1) Lesbian women are inclined toward sports, while

2) Gay men are inclined away from sports.

This creates a big selection bias in the tennis player (and all pro sports) sample.

There does tend to be more lesbians drawn to sport, the same way an above average number of gay guys are drawn to professions like hairdressing. They are still a minority, but the percentage is higher than most other places. But still, you can't always go on stereotypes. I know a lot of lesbians, most of whom are very feminine.

We can't say for sure who is or isn't gay. That's what is bugging me on this thread. You don't know for sure that there is definitely a gay guy in the top 100. Of course statistically speaking it seems unlikely that there is none, but I'm sick of people trying to out someone with no evidence other than there own gaydar, which must be right :rolleyes:

I don't think it's easier for lesbians to come out anyway. There are hardly any out lesbians on the wta tour, and players like Flavia Pennetta has acknowledged there is a lot of them. It's sad that in this day and age people still have to hide their sexuality. There has been rumours about Sharapova's sexuality, but that doesn't mean much. Most rumours are made up. But if they were true, there is no way someone with that many male fans and endorsements could come out.

Plus, on the atp tour there is a lot of homophobia. Tipsarevic is definitely not the only bigoted guy on the tour. Sport can be a pretty bigoted place unfortunately.

Inger67
Dec 6th, 2012, 05:47 PM
I find it funny how you guys are so eager and desperate to "OUT" a Top tennis player - just because arround 5% of population is homosexual, doesn't mean that there should 5 gay guys or gay girls in TOP 100 too...law of averages doesn't work like that I'm afraid. And even if there are some homosexual players in the lower ranks, nobody cares about them coming out anyway. If some elite tennis player was truly gay, we would have a good clue about it in this age of globalisation and social media...end of

Personally I think that number is far off. Sexuality IMO and many others is a spectrum. And how do they get these numbers anyway? I surely have never been asked, neither have any of my friends whom I know are gay. :lol:

And I'm sure the closeted members of society aren't going to relinquish that information freely either. 5% seems too low to me, especially when you include bisexual people who just hide it.

Inger67
Dec 6th, 2012, 05:52 PM
sorry, what?

I'm sure this poster is just reverting to stereotypes that lesbian women are more manly (i.e. more drawn to sports) and gay men are stereotyped as being feminine (i.e. decline away from sports).. This is the problem in society when people senselessly go back to these stereotypes.

~{X}~
Dec 6th, 2012, 05:57 PM
Oh Cory... I have seen that limp wrist come out on some of your volleys. :oh: :spit:

I'm joking. ;)

Inger67
Dec 6th, 2012, 06:02 PM
Oh Cory... I have seen that limp wrist come out on some of your volleys. :oh: :spit:

I'm joking. ;)

bitch :sobbing:

I'm going to brainlessly bash your ass with a tennis ball from across the court the next time I see you :oh:

markdelaney
Dec 6th, 2012, 08:23 PM
Morrissey ignores the basic observation that, by nature:

1) Lesbian women are inclined toward sports, while

2) Gay men are inclined away from sports.

This creates a big selection bias in the tennis player (and all pro sports) sample.



I agree with this.

It's crazy to use percentages to say that 1 in 10 men are gay so 10% of all male tennis players must be gay. It figures that if more than 95% of men who are fans of the eurovision song contest are gay ,so in other walks of life it might be less than 0.1% .

But getting to the point, does anybody really care ? These people play tennis and who cares if some might be gay or not ?

Jimmie48
Dec 6th, 2012, 08:27 PM
But getting to the point, does anybody really care ? These people play tennis and who cares if some might be gay or not ?

Well, for the same reason people are interested in what the players do in their private time etc... everybody's looking to relate to their faves in some form or another.

moby
Dec 6th, 2012, 08:33 PM
Morrissey ignores the basic observation that, by nature:

1) Lesbian women are inclined toward sports, while

2) Gay men are inclined away from sports.

This creates a big selection bias in the tennis player (and all pro sports) sample.Given that half this board is gay males, I think that puts the notion that gay men are inclined away from the sports at rest.

What is true is that the macho heterosexist culture of professional sport makes it difficult for gay men who are into sports to pursue sports as a career and maintain their sanity (and most learned this probably via the high school gym culture), and those who do do not choose to come out. I think it's also more likely for gay men to pursue individual sports rather than team sports for a similar reason.

Besides your reasoning is circular, since your "evidence" for gay men not liking sports is presumably that there are not many out gay men in professional sports. I can only guess what other arguments you might make about race and gender, without considering socio-historical factors.

LoveFifteen
Dec 6th, 2012, 09:23 PM
Given that half this board is gay males, I think that puts the notion that gay men are inclined away from the sports at rest.

What is true is that the macho heterosexist culture of professional sport makes it difficult for gay men who are into sports to pursue sports as a career and maintain their sanity (and most learned this probably via the high school gym culture), and those who do do not choose to come out. I think it's also more likely for gay men to pursue individual sports rather than team sports for a similar reason.

Besides your reasoning is circular, since your "evidence" for gay men not liking sports is presumably that there are not many out gay men in professional sports. I can only guess what other arguments you might make about race and gender, without considering socio-historical factors.

THIS x 1,000,000 :worship:

Morrissey
Dec 6th, 2012, 10:22 PM
I agree with this.

It's crazy to use percentages to say that 1 in 10 men are gay so 10% of all male tennis players must be gay. It figures that if more than 95% of men who are fans of the eurovision song contest are gay ,so in other walks of life it might be less than 0.1% .

But getting to the point, does anybody really care ? These people play tennis and who cares if some might be gay or not ?

The point is it is scientifically IMPOSSIBLE that there are no gays in the ATP and WTA top 100. These gay tennis pros exist it is a fact of life.

You may not care but people DO CARE. And why shouldn't we? The public seems to care about the love lives of the heterosexual tennis players, so why should the gay tennis players live in silence and shame? The media focus the cameras during tennis matches on the wives and the girlfriends or boyfriends of the straight tennis players. Why can't the gay tennis pros get the same respect and courtesy? How many times have you watched a tennis match and the media talk about the spouse or partner of the heterosexual tennis player. Straight privilege is all over the place that it becomes second nature people don't notice it.


Your comment is a generalization to be honest. The reason lesbians have it easier than gay men to come out is heterosexual men are more fearful of gay men than lesbians. Also, women in general not all women but women are more likely to be open minded about homosexuality than heterosexual men. So, it is easier for a lesbian tennis pro to come out that's why the general public KNOWS about the lesbian tennis champions.

However, since men's tennis players although an invidiual sport are around heterosexual men these straight men KEEP the gay men in the closet and in check. The homophobia in men's sports is extreme the heterosexual men are so fearful of gay men and make the climate in the locker room so tough that a lot of gay male athletes choose to remain in the closet. It would take a very courageous, and a very brave gay male athlete to come out like the Puerto Rican boxer Orlando Cruz. Crus is ranked number 4 in the world in the featherweight division. Cruz got a lot of hate on the internet but he's gotten mostly positive support from boxing fans and the media after coming out. Many people were surprised that a gay man can succeed in boxing which is a very macho sport.

FoxyliciousKhat
Dec 6th, 2012, 11:41 PM
Why is it necessary to tell the world that one is gay/lesbian? Just be and live your life.

I just find it beyond ridiculous the constant speculations or supposedly gay-dar readings that are nothing more that wishful thinking. People act more like being gay/lesbian is the latest fashion or in thing rather than a sexual preference (for lack of better words).

If that's what people are so be it but it shouldn't matter one way or the other, just as it doesn't matter that I'm straight.

Foxy

Navratil
Dec 7th, 2012, 06:55 AM
Amelie Mauresmo did not lose any endorsements when she came out in fact she is a hero in France for being the first French woman since the 1920s to be Wimbledon champion. Mauresmo is adored in France and respected by the French people. Yes, money or the fear of losing endosements could be a reason top players remain in the closet. But if the media found out, wouldn't that hurt a company that would strip a player of endosement money by coming out? I have to believe in the year 2012, a company that would cut ties with an openly gay player would get bad press.

It does seem like everything is going in reverse on the WTA. Notice the recent WTA championships and all the top 8 players getting their makeup done, wearing gowns ect. Back in the 1990s, at the WTA championships I don't think they did that. This whole glam thing is new, to indicate to the audience that these fit female tennis players are still feminine and still can present a heterosexual image to male consumers. I find it odd that the WTA is trying to appeal to heterosexual men and not appeal to straight women or the gay community who support women's tennis.

Also, there is a current tennis champion top 10 player on the WTA who is a lesbian everyone knows she's gay she lives in a glass closet. This particular top player isn't hiding she's got a girlfriend she simply doesn't feel the need to come out which is disappointing I believe.

And it makes me wonder, why it is so easy to identify the lesbian tennis players yet on the ATP Tour the general public is lead to believe all the top guys are heterosexual and have model type girlfriends. There's got to be one guy in the top 20 who is gay or bisexual.

Actually I think Amwlie got so famous because of that!

Morrissey
Dec 7th, 2012, 07:35 AM
There are inevitably going to be a huge number of ATP and WTA gays. It's naive however to not understand what the hesitations and restrictions are when it comes to professional sportsmen and women 'coming out'.

I mean look how shallow and vapid the media culture is over the WTA these days regarding grunting. If Female tennis players are scrutinised relentlessly over such irrelevant and trivial things as that, there is already a disincentive for WTA pro's to illuminate their private lives, especially controversial subject matters such as their sexuality, into the public domain. I don't think the press is that accepting at all. Look how they distorted Mauresmo's coming out.

For male ATP players, it'd be even worse. We live in a very pro-masculine society especially when it comes to spot, where gay men are often seen as disassociated from sports. They are often perceived as effeminate, and ultimately alien to these masculine grand narratives we see in sports specifically. I mean could you imagine if a top 5 ATP player came out as gay? The ATP that brands their players as warriors, promoting this robust, dominant image of masculinity, and then suddenly having to reconcile with someone not adhering to these ideals. Imagine the types of repercussions on the player, simply for addressing his own sexuality publicly.

It doesn't just happen in sport either, but it's the most glaring and disturbing example of self-suppression of sexuality, purely because the culture of sport is so crude and brazen with stereotype.

I understand what you are saying you make a cogent argument but I also think it is incredibly sad. If NOBODY does nothing then NOTHING will change. Look at the African American civil rights movement or the feminist movement in America if people like Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, Gloria Steinem, Alice Walker, Betty Fredian, said NOTHING or DID NOTHING where would we be?

If lesbians tennis champions like Martina Navratilova or Billie Jean King did NOTHING where would women in pro tennis be? King started the WTA and now it is the most successful female sport on the planet and the highest profile. If feminists and civil rights activists did NOTHING we would be in a terrible place.


Someone has to take a stand and BE a brave pioneers on the ATP TOUR. Because if nobody does NOTHING it means the status quo reins supreme. I honestly think the gay guys on the ATP TOUR are afraid of the unknown. Nobody has come out in men's tennis so the silence and shame just continues.

Also I think if a high profile gay ATP player came out he would have more opportunities to make MORE MONEY he would get MORE PUBLICITY and FAME.

Look at Frank Ocean he was underground and now the guy has a hit album and six Grammy nominations. Frank Ocean is now a huge star because he came out in hip hop.

Morrissey
Dec 7th, 2012, 07:48 AM
Because it seems highly unlikely that anyone in the top 20 is gay.

1. Most of them have girlfriends or wives. 50 years ago, gay men might have gone through the trouble to have an official female partner in order to submit to the norms of society. In 2012, gay men might be quiet about it but I seriously doubt they arrange a fake relationship, unless they are a Hollywood actor or an American politician.

2. If 5% of all males are gay, that means that statistically 1 player in the top 20 is gay. But that is only if top 20 players are an average of the population (which they are not) and if gay men are as inclined to elite sport as the average male (which they are not).

There is currently one male tennis pro ranked in the top 20 who I believe for certain is not heterosexual he is either gay or bisexual. I won't name the guy's name but according to the articles I have read this male tennis champion's so called girlfriend is just his beard. The girlfriend is actually a family friend and she sometimes shows up to his grand slam semifinals or finals but other than that she's rarely seen. She occasionally shows up to other ATP events. The family of this ATP champion created the girlfriend to give this guy a heterosexual image to hide his homosexuality. The girlfriend was created because the family feared if this guy did come out tennis fans would not accept him being gay or bi.

The problem I have with your answer is since gay male athletes encounter so much prejudice and homophobia there is probably internal pressure at the top of men's tennis for a gay male to stay in the closet. At the highest level I think the PR teams and managers have so much power they keep these guys in the closet.

But remember players ranked in the top 20 are very high profile these guys got PR teams and publicists that craft a heterosexual image for them. Just because a man has a girlfriend and wife does not mean he isn't gay or bisexual.

bandabou
Dec 7th, 2012, 10:51 AM
Why is it necessary to tell the world that one is gay/lesbian? Just be and live your life.

I just find it beyond ridiculous the constant speculations or supposedly gay-dar readings that are nothing more that wishful thinking. People act more like being gay/lesbian is the latest fashion or in thing rather than a sexual preference (for lack of better words).

If that's what people are so be it but it should matter one way or the other, just as it doesn't matter that I'm straight.

Foxy

That's my thoughts too...what's with the obsession that somebody HAS to come out?! :shrug:

Isn't anybody's business really. As long as the person isn't living a double-life, then..no biggie.

dencod16
Dec 7th, 2012, 05:34 PM
It is because being Lesbian was never really socially oppressed but more socially encourage, even in old times woman to woman sexual encounters are found attractive and flaunted as man to man relations are found sick and disgusting. So there is no real comparison. Being Lesbian is nothing like being gay.

dencod16
Dec 7th, 2012, 05:35 PM
There is currently one male tennis pro ranked in the top 20 who I believe for certain is not heterosexual he is either gay or bisexual. I won't name the guy's name but according to the articles I have read this male tennis champion's so called girlfriend is just his beard. The girlfriend is actually a family friend and she sometimes shows up to his grand slam semifinals or finals but other than that she's rarely seen. She occasionally shows up to other ATP events. The family of this ATP champion created the girlfriend to give this guy a heterosexual image to hide his homosexuality. The girlfriend was created because the family feared if this guy did come out tennis fans would not accept him being gay or bi.

The problem I have with your answer is since gay male athletes encounter so much prejudice and homophobia there is probably internal pressure at the top of men's tennis for a gay male to stay in the closet. At the highest level I think the PR teams and managers have so much power they keep these guys in the closet.

But remember players ranked in the top 20 are very high profile these guys got PR teams and publicists that craft a heterosexual image for them. Just because a man has a girlfriend and wife does not mean he isn't gay or bisexual.

LOL you said grand slam semis or finals, there is only 4 people that you can put an or to that is Nadal, Federer, Djokovic and Murray.

KeysisGOAT
Dec 7th, 2012, 05:54 PM
The point is it is scientifically IMPOSSIBLE that there are no gays in the ATP and WTA top 100. These gay tennis pros exist it is a fact of life.

No it isn't. It's highly unlikely, but don't confuse that with it being impossible. For one thing 100 people is a very small sample size, and five people (the number of homosexuals you'd expect to find just by picking 100 people out of the world population at random) is not a large number. The difference between there being five homosexuals and none is unlikely to be statistically significant.

Case in point, I know a consultant pharmacist who has never seen a side effect that (in theory) affects 5% (or more) of people taking the drug despite treating more than 100 people with it.

jj74
Dec 7th, 2012, 05:57 PM
Well, for the same reason people are interested in what the players do in their private time etc... everybody's looking to relate to their faves in some form or another.

But we are not talking about private. I know a lot of people equate announce that someone is gay with sex, but being gay is a sexual orientation, nothing more. A player who tells he is gay is not giving more information about his private life than a straight one saying he is straight.
I know the repercusions are not the same, one is news and the other not, but this is not about privacy.

And of course there's the sense that you will be "the gay player", and i think that's something that players will want to avoid, because, yes, he will be gay, and he will be a player, but one thing has nothing to do with the other. Of course if the guy is a top player and won GS and is high on the ranking that things will be different.

Sooner or later someone will come out (and i hope it will be because he wants, and not because he is outed or be catched in a scandal), and if nothing happen, and he can play without extra pressure, maybe people will be more open about it.

Some people say, i don't care about it, but the truth is everybody knows who is Federer's wife or Nadal's girlfriend, and i never hear someone complaining that they talk too much about their private life.
Some people wouldn't like for sure, but most people will get used to it in no time. And if the guy is good on court and smart enough to give good interviews i'm pretty sure the atp will be very happy after the coming out.
Tennis is a sport with a lot of gay fans, so i don't think that will be a problem. Maybe other players would be, because some of them came from very conservative countries, but they just get used to it, because if they react bad, they will get a good backlash.

I think in some countries the new generations are a lot more open, so it's a matter of time

Volcana
Dec 7th, 2012, 06:18 PM
There is currently one male tennis pro ranked in the top 20 who I believe for certain is not heterosexual he is either gay or bisexual. I won't name the guy's name .... .... because uninformed speculation about 20 guys is SOOOOO much more fun that uninformed speculation about just one.

Volcana
Dec 7th, 2012, 06:21 PM
It is because being Lesbian was never really socially oppressed but more socially encourage, even in old times woman to woman sexual encounters are found attractive and flaunted as man to man relations are found sick and disgusting. So there is no real comparison. Being Lesbian is nothing like being gay.A new candidate 'Truly Uninformed Post of the Year'.

Tell it to all the women who killed, raped and who's families disowned them when they found out they were gay.

Volcana
Dec 7th, 2012, 06:37 PM
Really thinking about the original question, I think it's really two unrelated questions.

Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis players? The answer is, largely, they don't. Women's tennis isn't nearly as popular as men's tennis, in part because a lot of people think all female athletes are gay, and it turns them off.

Why are no ATP players out of the closet? Maybe they are. At home. Matt Bomer (White Collar) managed to have a successful acting career, and three kids with his partner, without having a press conference to announce he was gay. He was famos. He was out. To the people he actually interacted with. If some player is out in his home town, why not tell the whole world? Wrong question. WHY tell the whole world?

Steffi Graf and Andre Agassi got together and chose to keep it private til they announced they'd gotten married. Some people like to keep their private life private.

dencod16
Dec 7th, 2012, 11:21 PM
A new candidate 'Truly Uninformed Post of the Year'.

Tell it to all the women who killed, raped and who's families disowned them when they found out they were gay.

Can you actually tell me that it being sexually attracted to a woman during those times were as punished as gay men. They can still fulfill their desires sexually, as men would be butchered by just a moment of seeing it. This is not about family acceptance it is social acceptance. There is a huge difference.

Expat
Dec 8th, 2012, 02:20 AM
LOL you said grand slam semis or finals, there is only 4 people that you can put an or to that is Nadal, Federer, Djokovic and Murray.

del potro tsonga berdych all have more than one slam semi and at least one final.
ferrer also has multiple semis

n1_and_uh_noone
Dec 8th, 2012, 03:43 AM
LOL you said grand slam semis or finals, there is only 4 people that you can put an or to that is Nadal, Federer, Djokovic and Murray.

It is obvious he means Nadal. There has been endless speculation about it, and this is no exception. Pretty sure the 'proof' will be something quite jaw-droppingly inane, like something he said, or a look he gave in a pic or something.

Pat Bateman
Dec 8th, 2012, 07:40 AM
Jim Courier's WIFE
http://cornedbeefhash.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/jim-courier-usopen08.jpg

http://photos.ennvy.com/wp-content/uploads/Jim-Courier-41.png

Jim looks thrilled to be with her. I haven't seen body language like that since Serena met Shinto.

LoveFifteen
Dec 8th, 2012, 09:16 AM
He's clearly talking about Nadal. A British female journalist, famous for her hatchet job interviews, insinuated Nadal was gay because he didn't seem to speak about Xisca with much passion. As much as I'd love for Nadal to be gay, I really doubt that he is. He's insanely famous. Something more definitive would have leaked by now.

Navratil
Dec 8th, 2012, 10:10 AM
I agree with this.

It's crazy to use percentages to say that 1 in 10 men are gay so 10% of all male tennis players must be gay. It figures that if more than 95% of men who are fans of the eurovision song contest are gay ,so in other walks of life it might be less than 0.1% .

But getting to the point, does anybody really care ? These people play tennis and who cares if some might be gay or not ?

I doubt that. There are more lesbian tennis players as there are more gay ballet dancers ;)

No prejudic - that's just the way it is ;)

Flavia P.
Dec 8th, 2012, 11:26 AM
Actually, ballet is pretty straight. Well, straight with quotation marks, since I've had a lot of the dancers and most tend to be very socially liberal, but there aren't a major amount of openly gay men in ballet.

There are ATP players who sleep with the same-sex and it's more than people would believe. Don't believe what you see on TV. Bearding isn't just a Hollywood thing. At the same time, most of these guys do NOT identify as gay and will not, for whatever personal reasons they have. And I'm not going to name names here.

To answer this thread-----sports is a hyper-masculine culture and hyper-masculine straight men don't accept homosexuality by and large, male or female. So you're not gonna see many athletes in any sports coming out, and you're not going to see many gay athletes at elite levels period, although we are seeing more do so. Things are beginning to break through, slowly. But there are SO many incidents of anti-gay abuse coming from the mouths of athletes, and that destroys the psyche of closeted non-straight athletes, and even the pro-gay straight athletes. Most of THEM are intimidated too and it hurts them, because some of them know what's what and they can't just be forthright. Sports culture is definitely, without doubt, among the top 2-3 most heteronormative and misogynistic cultures worldwide.

Flavia P.
Dec 8th, 2012, 11:28 AM
We need people to accept themselves and not need someone to make them feel affirmed and accepted. Having heroes is amazing, but if you don't like who you are, then it doesn't matter. Personal acceptance, family acceptance, community acceptance are the three keys. That's what many on both sides fail to grasp.

chuvack
Dec 8th, 2012, 04:16 PM
Given that half this board is gay males, I think that puts the notion that gay men are inclined away from the sports at rest.

What is true is that the macho heterosexist culture of professional sport makes it difficult for gay men who are into sports to pursue sports as a career and maintain their sanity (and most learned this probably via the high school gym culture), and those who do do not choose to come out. I think it's also more likely for gay men to pursue individual sports rather than team sports for a similar reason.

Besides your reasoning is circular, since your "evidence" for gay men not liking sports is presumably that there are not many out gay men in professional sports. I can only guess what other arguments you might make about race and gender, without considering socio-historical factors.

Come on. Out of all of the presumably hundreds or thousands of gay males who are on this board, how many do you think ever considered the possibility of playing professionally in one of the major global sports and actually pursued it to reach a point, that it was a serious life option? I am guessing a couple at most, maybe zero.

When I assume that gay men are inclined away from sports, I mean that they are inclined away from the major professional sports as a career. I certanly don't claim that gay men are inclined away from recreational athletics, various specialty professional sports, or posting on sports message boards.

I also don't buy the ciricular reasoning argument. A lot of gay people are pretty tough. Nobody can stop them from going where they want to go. If gay men were naturally inclined to the major pro sports, more of them would be there.

moby
Dec 8th, 2012, 04:49 PM
Come on. Out of all of the presumably hundreds or thousands of gay males who are on this board, how many do you think ever considered the possibility of playing professionally in one of the major global sports and actually pursued it to reach a point, that it was a serious life option? I am guessing a couple at most, maybe zero.

When I assume that gay men are inclined away from sports, I mean that they are inclined away from the major professional sports as a career. I certanly don't claim that gay men are inclined away from recreational athletics, various specialty professional sports, or posting on sports message boards.

I also don't buy the ciricular reasoning argument. A lot of gay people are pretty tough. Nobody can stop them from going where they want to go. If gay men were naturally inclined to the major pro sports, more of them would be there.A few quick points:

1) As another poster said in a post which he just removed, how many straight men on this board also considered the possibility of a professional sports career?

2) My understanding is that quite a few gay guys here play sports at the varsity level, which takes a lot of time commitment. I'm not seeing the big distinguishing line between that and pro sports.

3) Again, how do you know not more gay men are there? Even in Hollywood and more traditionally artsy fields that are more liberal, a lot of gay men are not out.

4) You missed my point about homophobic sports culture.

dsanders06
Dec 8th, 2012, 05:30 PM
Did we ever find out who that guy who Nadal had an intimate hug with after he won RG was this year? I know some people with overactive imaginations were speculating (come to think of it, was Xisca at that tournament?).


EDIT: Ok, apparently I just showed my sports ignorance :lol: The guy he hugged was Pau Gasol, an apparently A-List basketball player. And seemingly straight. :scratch:

Morrissey
Dec 8th, 2012, 09:23 PM
Really thinking about the original question, I think it's really two unrelated questions.

Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis players? The answer is, largely, they don't. Women's tennis isn't nearly as popular as men's tennis, in part because a lot of people think all female athletes are gay, and it turns them off.

Why are no ATP players out of the closet? Maybe they are. At home. Matt Bomer (White Collar) managed to have a successful acting career, and three kids with his partner, without having a press conference to announce he was gay. He was famos. He was out. To the people he actually interacted with. If some player is out in his home town, why not tell the whole world? Wrong question. WHY tell the whole world?

Steffi Graf and Andre Agassi got together and chose to keep it private til they announced they'd gotten married. Some people like to keep their private life private.

Why do straight people need to broadcast to the world their boyfriends or girlfriends? Why do I have to watch Andy Murray or Novak Djokovic or Roger Federer's female partners on my television screen at grand slams? Or the commentators gush about Roger Federer's wife and his two children? Why are gay people treated as invisible and to be treated as being ashamed of ourselves?

The message society is still sending is to heterosexual is public but to be gay is PRIVATE and SHAMEFUL and it is not.

Heterosexual privilege makes heterosexuality seem as though it is normal while being gay is treated as abnormal.

Why should gay men in sports or lesbians in sports hide in the closet?

The reason gay male athletes should come out is because we should live in a world where heterosexist privilege is no longer supreme. There are so many negative assumptions people have about gay men that we aren't masculine, that we aren't tough, that we cannot compete in sports.

Look at Orlando Cruz the Puerto Rican professional gay boxer he is ranked number 4 in the world in the featherweight division and he came OUT. Cruz proved a gay man can be TOUGH and MASCULINE and SUCCEED in sports. Cruz said he wanted to come out to show gay people and the world that a gay man can do well in a macho sport like boxing.
I think sports is different than Hollywood though. People seem to be slightly more accepting of singers and male actors coming out like Frank Ocean and Matt Bomer. However, male sports is still seen and viewed as a domain of very macho men and heterosexual men. Straight men KEEP gay male athletes in the closet the lockerroom is a hostile atmosphere for gay men.
but Matt Bomer was never in the closet before he was always OUT he just lived in a GLASS CLOSET. There are numerous pictures online of Matt Bomer making out with other men. Everyone knew Matt Bomer is gay he never hid his homosexuality.

Flavia P.
Dec 8th, 2012, 09:42 PM
The stereotypes that all gay men aren't tough are dying out. That was based on TV, specifically, Queer Eye, Will and Grace, and other shows where fem gay men were THE only representation of gay men. Now that masculine gay men are coming out, and now that people realize most gay men actually work out, and a large portion of us have better bodies and are more athletic than most every-day straight guys, that view is only held by the very ignorant. That's not the reason why there aren't openly gay players.

It's more garden variety homophobia and fear. Most these athletes and fans too, don't have much to any real experience with the gay community or gay people. That leads to ignorance. Which leads to hatred.

BTW, being fem isn't a negative thing. It's not something people should be trying to disassociate from. That's just another symptom of misogyny.

Trickle
Dec 8th, 2012, 10:00 PM
The stereotypes that all gay men aren't tough are dying out. That was based on TV, specifically, Queer Eye, Will and Grace, and other shows where fem gay men were THE only representation of gay men. Now that masculine gay men are coming out, and now that people realize most gay men actually work out, and a large portion of us have better bodies and are more athletic than most every-day straight guys, that view is only held by the very ignorant. That's not the reason why there aren't openly gay players.

It's more garden variety homophobia and fear. Most these athletes and fans too, don't have much to any real experience with the gay community or gay people. That leads to ignorance. Which leads to hatred.

BTW, being fem isn't a negative thing. It's not something people should be trying to disassociate from. That's just another symptom of misogyny.

Let's not forget gay men can be absolute slobs too and have no sense of health decorum whatsoever. :lol:

Wasn't there a special one-off episode of QEFTSG but it was Queer Eye for the Gay Guy and I think they were making fun of how "un-gay" he really was. Or maybe I was imagining it.

Flavia P.
Dec 8th, 2012, 10:14 PM
Let's not forget gay men can be absolute slobs too and have no sense of health decorum whatsoever. :lol: Sooooo right. :lol:

Wasn't there a special one-off episode of QEFTSG but it was Queer Eye for the Gay Guy and I think they were making fun of how "un-gay" he really was. Or maybe I was imagining it.It probably happened, but I don't remember at all :sobbing:

Stereotypes are only as real as one makes them.

Level55
Dec 9th, 2012, 03:03 PM
There are ATP players who sleep with the same-sex and it's more than people would believe. Don't believe what you see on TV. Bearding isn't just a Hollywood thing. At the same time, most of these guys do NOT identify as gay and will not, for whatever personal reasons they have. And I'm not going to name names here.


Oh really. How on earth do you know this? See this is my problem. People claiming to know personal things about complete strangers. Saying "I won't name names" doesn't give your claims anymore credibility either! It is wishful thinking and projecting.
The same goes for your comments Morissey. If you ARE talking about Nadal, then saying you are "almost completely sure he is bisexual or gay" because of an article? WTF? When is an article concrete proof of anything. I bet you wouldn't believe an article that said he is dating Sharapova, for example. You can't pick and choose what to believe. A woman saying he might be gay cos he didn't talk passionately about his girlfriend? Ridiculous. If people actually believe someone is gay with zero evidence, you can't even reason with them :rolleyes:

Believe me, it works both ways. I had an argument with some woman who claimed Matt Bomer was bisexual "cos she read it somewhere" :lol: So the man himself telling you he is gay means nothing?! This is the problem when sexuality gets discussed, people start making claims they cannot support. "A source said this", "my friend said that" etc. Ultimately, we know nothing about these people's lives. I would be shocked if NO ATP player was gay, but we cannot say for sure and we cannot expect people to come out if they don't want to. I don't think people should force the issue.

As for the person who said lesbians have it better than gay men, I am speechless. It's not a competition. Men like the idea of two women together, but only if they can somehow be involved. Believe me, my lesbian friends have been treated absolutely terribly. In the LGBT communtity, there have been many people who have been killed or committed suicide. To argue who is treated worse is actually quite insulting and helps no one :mad:

Sorry for the rant, but some things in this thread have irked me. Finally I will just say it would be great for more sportsmen and women to come out, but unfortunately I don't see it happening. But trying to "out" people, especially based on nothing at all, is not helpful at all to the cause.

Flavia P.
Dec 9th, 2012, 03:14 PM
People who have asked for the names have gotten the names and I don't need to fabricate things. If you're in the know and in the circle, you know what the deal is. And as far as gay rumors, when there is smoke, there often is fire.

I agree that players should not be forced out, since that's an extreme violation of personal space. But discussion of a player's sex/relationship life is just that and it shouldn't be treated differently if the person is potentially gay. The thing is...........these players are closeted so they're lives are extremely discreet and not very public. So there isn't much to discuss.

bandabou
Dec 9th, 2012, 03:20 PM
People who have asked for the names have gotten the names and I don't need to fabricate things. If you're in the know and in the circle, you know what the deal is. And as far as gay rumors, when there is smoke, there often is fire.

I agree that players should not be forced out, since that's an extreme violation of personal space. But discussion of a player's sex/relationship life is just that and it shouldn't be treated differently if the person is potentially gay. The thing is...........these players are closeted so they're lives are extremely discreet and not very public. So there isn't much to discuss.

Then put the names..now you're blah blahing, playing cute. Name names. Who's the who you're talking about?

Flavia P.
Dec 9th, 2012, 03:33 PM
PM me for names and I'll give names. It's not that many names.

Zamboni
Dec 9th, 2012, 03:35 PM
People who have asked for the names have gotten the names and I don't need to fabricate things. If you're in the know and in the circle, you know what the deal is. And as far as gay rumors, when there is smoke, there often is fire.

I agree that players should not be forced out, since that's an extreme violation of personal space. But discussion of a player's sex/relationship life is just that and it shouldn't be treated differently if the person is potentially gay. The thing is...........these players are closeted so they're lives are extremely discreet and not very public. So there isn't much to discuss.
You're contradicting yourself here. Discussion of a gay player's sex/relationshgip life is fine, as long as they are out of the closet. Discussing things, and finding "proof" they are gay when they are not out IS forcing them to come out. As is giving out names "in private".

If you're "in the know and in the circle" and you know someone's gay, good for you. Hinting about it and trying to make people guess who it is, is not cool. Let them live their lives on their own terms.

Flavia P.
Dec 9th, 2012, 03:48 PM
I'm not telling people to guess, that's tacky. In fact, I said I didn't want to give names here because I don't want to throw everything out there. But if you ask for names, privately, I'll give them. And keep everything on the discreet, DL level they are now. Since it's not as if these players are celibate. They're not. They're on the DL. So outing them would be me exposing their DL life publicly, and I wouldn't do that, since first, I don't know what that life is, and secondly, I think outing people is like, rule #1 gay code not to break.

I see no problem hinting/discussing about it, or discussing the issue of closeted players on tour and in sports. In fact I never hinted at it, I flat out said there are guys on tour who are into the same sex. It's a fact. If a player wants to be closeted, that's their business. But it's a fact that there are players on tour who have had sex with men.

Gay players are in sports, and there are many. And at the lower non-professional level, there are many. There is no point in trying to gloss over that. That does nothing but continue to increase stigma. This issue can be discussed while not outing these players and understanding the different social dynamics and complications that come with being openly straight vs openly gay.

Morrissey
Dec 9th, 2012, 10:48 PM
He's clearly talking about Nadal. A British female journalist, famous for her hatchet job interviews, insinuated Nadal was gay because he didn't seem to speak about Xisca with much passion. As much as I'd love for Nadal to be gay, I really doubt that he is. He's insanely famous. Something more definitive would have leaked by now.

I disagree the top players like Nadal have power PR teams and the tennis community is very insular I doubt if a tennis journalist wrote a piece outing Nadal that journalist would not be criticized by others. Since Barber doesn't really like tennis and had an objective eye she wrote an article about what she saw of Nadal.

Barber wrote about Tiger Woods in her article about Nadal as an EXAMPLE pointing out Woods had an image of being a clean family man. However, Woods is really a womanizer and a sex addict. Woods image was shattered when the truth came out about his sexual exploits.

Barber did a good job pointing out tennis fans DO NOT KNOW TENNIS STARS WE KNOW THE IMAGE THEY CREATE with their PR teams. We do not know them as people their images are carefully crafted and put together. Barber was providing her readers with some OBJECTIVITY she was pointing out that tennis fans need to think more critically what we see is NOT really the truth about these stars. The stars have to sell an image, products, endosements and tennis fans feed into the hype by BELIEVING the image the stars are selling.

Lynn Barber wasn't saying she believes Nadal is gay just because he did not speak about the girlfriend with passion. Barber proved in her article with excellent investigative journalism that the girlfriend is a beard simply a facade to give Nadal a straight image. In Barber's article she also pointed out some very important things. First, Barber pointed out Nadal doesn't really spend that much time with his so called girlfriend. Barber is correct pretty hard to have a relationship with someone when you hardly see the other person. Yes, there is long distance romance but Nadal is on the road on the ATP Tour for 11 months in the year. Second, Barber pointed out correctly that Uncle Toni created the girlfriend to give Nadal a heterosexual image to deflect rumours about his sexuality. Three, Barber once again is correct when she points out the girlfriend shows up for grand slam semifinals and finals and occassional ATP events. The girlfriend is clearly a beard there is no relationship between her and Nadal she is just present to give Nadal an illusion of appearing straight.

égalité
Dec 9th, 2012, 10:53 PM
It is because being Lesbian was never really socially oppressed but more socially encourage, even in old times woman to woman sexual encounters are found attractive and flaunted as man to man relations are found sick and disgusting. So there is no real comparison. Being Lesbian is nothing like being gay.

Wow please stop talking :spit:

n1_and_uh_noone
Dec 9th, 2012, 11:15 PM
THat article about Nadal was pure shit. It proved absolutely nothing.

Second, about all the insinuations courtesy of Flavia P, being gay and having slept with the same sex are not the smae thing at all. Anyway, I fail to see how discussing it on PM is any different from outing people in public.

Borishynikov
Dec 10th, 2012, 02:42 PM
couldn't care less but surprised Schiavone's name hasn't been mentioned...

Kon.
Dec 10th, 2012, 03:07 PM
couldn't care less but surprised Schiavone's name hasn't been mentioned...

Why should she have been mentioned?

Coconut91
Dec 10th, 2012, 03:09 PM
I disagree the top players like Nadal have power PR teams and the tennis community is very insular I doubt if a tennis journalist wrote a piece outing Nadal that journalist would not be criticized by others. Since Barber doesn't really like tennis and had an objective eye she wrote an article about what she saw of Nadal.

Barber wrote about Tiger Woods in her article about Nadal as an EXAMPLE pointing out Woods had an image of being a clean family man. However, Woods is really a womanizer and a sex addict. Woods image was shattered when the truth came out about his sexual exploits.

Barber did a good job pointing out tennis fans DO NOT KNOW TENNIS STARS WE KNOW THE IMAGE THEY CREATE with their PR teams. We do not know them as people their images are carefully crafted and put together. Barber was providing her readers with some OBJECTIVITY she was pointing out that tennis fans need to think more critically what we see is NOT really the truth about these stars. The stars have to sell an image, products, endosements and tennis fans feed into the hype by BELIEVING the image the stars are selling.

Lynn Barber wasn't saying she believes Nadal is gay just because he did not speak about the girlfriend with passion. Barber proved in her article with excellent investigative journalism that the girlfriend is a beard simply a facade to give Nadal a straight image. In Barber's article she also pointed out some very important things. First, Barber pointed out Nadal doesn't really spend that much time with his so called girlfriend. Barber is correct pretty hard to have a relationship with someone when you hardly see the other person. Yes, there is long distance romance but Nadal is on the road on the ATP Tour for 11 months in the year. Second, Barber pointed out correctly that Uncle Toni created the girlfriend to give Nadal a heterosexual image to deflect rumours about his sexuality. Three, Barber once again is correct when she points out the girlfriend shows up for grand slam semifinals and finals and occassional ATP events. The girlfriend is clearly a beard there is no relationship between her and Nadal she is just present to give Nadal an illusion of appearing straight.

Mmmm, sorry, not seeing the gay thing, he's bi at most, but definitely not gay. I'd agree he doesn't care much about his girlfriend though, if what I've been told is true.

~{X}~
Dec 10th, 2012, 03:24 PM
If I was a player... I'd be out and about! :lol:

Catsuit? Check. :oh:

Manitou
Dec 10th, 2012, 03:27 PM
Down with this thread!


--

young_gunner913
Dec 10th, 2012, 03:50 PM
It's still not as accepted among WTA fans. Look at how Sharapova fans react at the question of Martha being a lesbian. We'll have to wait to see how the WTA fans handle a coming out story from someone that nobody expected to be a lesbian.

miffedmax
Dec 10th, 2012, 04:12 PM
It's still not as accepted among WTA fans. Look at how Sharapova fans react at the question of Martha being a lesbian. We'll have to wait to see how the WTA fans handle a coming out story from someone that nobody expected to be a lesbian.

We will accept a gay ATP star. We are just waiting for you to dominate the tour as the only male member of the LOB Reserves.

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u493/wistfulwatcherredux/Reaction%20Gifs/tumblr_m03arlgAZY1qmkjtm.gif

Above: A computer projection of the reaction of the masses.

LoveFifteen
Dec 10th, 2012, 04:36 PM
Lynn Barber wasn't saying she believes Nadal is gay just because he did not speak about the girlfriend with passion. Barber proved in her article with excellent investigative journalism that the girlfriend is a beard simply a facade to give Nadal a straight image. In Barber's article she also pointed out some very important things. First, Barber pointed out Nadal doesn't really spend that much time with his so called girlfriend. Barber is correct pretty hard to have a relationship with someone when you hardly see the other person. Yes, there is long distance romance but Nadal is on the road on the ATP Tour for 11 months in the year. Second, Barber pointed out correctly that Uncle Toni created the girlfriend to give Nadal a heterosexual image to deflect rumours about his sexuality. Three, Barber once again is correct when she points out the girlfriend shows up for grand slam semifinals and finals and occassional ATP events. The girlfriend is clearly a beard there is no relationship between her and Nadal she is just present to give Nadal an illusion of appearing straight.

Investigative journalism?! :unsure: Gurl, please!!!

She had an interview with him, and that's it. Her specialty is doing hatchet jobs on her interviewees, and she's a miserable old bitch. Nadal was bored and completely uninterested in doing the interview.

You're really just reaching here, gurl. I love Nadal (my favorite male player), and I think he's an incredible champion. I'd be thrilled if he were gay, but it's very likely not the case. You're ignoring all the contrary evidence.

miffedmax
Dec 10th, 2012, 05:04 PM
Again--if you want to discuss differences in attitudes about homosexuality in the WTA and the ATP, that's one thing.

But if this thread veers off into idle, pointless speculation about player's personal lives I will close it. There is already an entire thread in nontennis for that.

Stonerpova
Dec 10th, 2012, 05:08 PM
It's still not as accepted among WTA fans. Look at how Sharapova fans react at the question of Martha being a lesbian. We'll have to wait to see how the WTA fans handle a coming out story from someone that nobody expected to be a lesbian.

Not all of us are that way. I wouldn't be surprised if she was bisexual (she clearly digs guys) but it doesn't matter to me either way. At the very worst it would make my fantasy of her and Amber Heard dating more realistic :lol:

Kon.
Dec 10th, 2012, 05:39 PM
It is because being Lesbian was never really socially oppressed but more socially encourage, even in old times woman to woman sexual encounters are found attractive and flaunted as man to man relations are found sick and disgusting. So there is no real comparison. Being Lesbian is nothing like being gay.

What a load of shit.

KeysisGOAT
Dec 10th, 2012, 05:43 PM
Yep, the only reason lesbians never had to break the law to be in a relationship is because the lawmakers were sexists who didn't see how sex could happen without a penis. Therefore lesbians didn't exist :rolleyes:.

young_gunner913
Dec 10th, 2012, 05:51 PM
Not all of us are that way. I wouldn't be surprised if she was bisexual (she clearly digs guys) but it doesn't matter to me either way. At the very worst it would make my fantasy of her and Amber Heard dating more realistic :lol:

I think she's straight as well but she gives off quite a lot of lesbian vibes. Maybe it's just her ice queen demeanor but I wouldn't be surprised if Chelsea Handler was going down on her this very second trying to suck the youth out of her cooch. :lol:

Stonerpova
Dec 10th, 2012, 05:59 PM
I think she's straight as well but she gives off quite a lot of lesbian vibes. Maybe it's just her ice queen demeanor but I wouldn't be surprised if Chelsea Handler was going down on her this very second trying to suck the youth out of her cooch. :lol:

I just think she comes off as a flirtatious person in general. Some of my friends are like that. I remember when Jason Kennedy ( :drool: )interviewed her at the ESPYs there was a little spark between them, even though she towered above him :lol:. And Maria was giving bedroom eyes to some middle aged lady who was interviewing her recently :lol:

Miss Atomic Bomb
Dec 10th, 2012, 05:59 PM
I wish Andy was a raging homosexual :sad:. Oh well, we will just have to turn him.

Kon.
Dec 10th, 2012, 06:12 PM
It's still not as accepted among WTA fans. Look at how Sharapova fans react at the question of Martha being a lesbian. We'll have to wait to see how the WTA fans handle a coming out story from someone that nobody expected to be a lesbian.
Every time this question has come up here it's been pretty disappointing. Not because I care or I believe she is a lesbian but seeing how several people on here, who are her fans, who are gay themselves are so bothered by the possibility. Seeing how these relatively open minded, not homophobic people react, it's hard to believe the average fan would like the idea.

miffedmax
Dec 10th, 2012, 07:15 PM
This thread has veered into speculation about player's personal affairs. While actual news about boyfriends, girlfriends, marriages, births and breakups are suitable for GM, rumor, guesses and innuendo are not.

You may carry one such discussions here: http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=416748&page=15 if you have a mind to do so.