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Natural Joe
Dec 3rd, 2012, 05:31 PM
In other words, rank the players from the most aggressive to the most defensive.

Here's the current top 10 for those who already forgot: ;)

1. Azarenka
2. Sharapova
3. S. Williams
4. A. Radwanska
5. Kerber
6. Errani
7. Li Na
8. Kvitova
9. Stosur
10. Wozniacki

Sammo
Dec 3rd, 2012, 05:36 PM
1. Kvitova
2. Li
3. Azarenka
4. Stosur
5. Sharapova
6. Serena (Serena is the most powerful ballbasher of them all, the thing is, she doesn't miss, that's why she's so good :lol:)
7. Kerber
8. Wozniacki
9. Radwanska
10. Errani

Kerbicz
Dec 3rd, 2012, 05:44 PM
In other words, rank the players from the most aggressive to the most defensive.

Do terms defensive player and pusher really mean the same?

Setsuna.
Dec 3rd, 2012, 05:48 PM
1. Kvitova
2. Li Na
3. Serena
4. Sharapova
5. Stosur
6. Azarenka
7. Kerber
8. Errani
9. Woznaicki
10. Radwanska

StoneRose
Dec 3rd, 2012, 05:49 PM
Something like this, it's not so clear cut except the first interchangable 2.

1. Kvitova
2. Li
3. Stosur
4. Serena
5. Sharapova
6. Azarenka
7. Kerber
8. Radwanska
9. Wozniacki
10. Errani

Natural Joe
Dec 3rd, 2012, 05:51 PM
Do terms defensive player and pusher really mean the same?

Discussing that would probably be worth a thread on its own but I think it's clear what it meant.

Natural Joe
Dec 3rd, 2012, 05:53 PM
Here's my list:

1. Kvitova
2. Li
3. Sharapova
4. Williams
5. Stosur
6. Azarenka
7. Kerber
8. Radwanska
9. Errani
10. Wozniacki

alex.2812
Dec 3rd, 2012, 05:56 PM
1. Li Na
2. Sharapova
3. Kvitova
4. S.Williams
5. Stosur
6. Azarenka
7. Stosur
8. Errani
9. A. Radwanska
10. Wozniacki

Cajka
Dec 3rd, 2012, 05:59 PM
1. Kvitova
2. Li

Those two play like they've never heard of controlled aggression, I understand Petra's reason to do it, but I don't understand Li at all.


3. Sharapova
4. Serena (she blows them all off the court without playing her most aggressive tennis)
5. Azarenka
6. Stosur
7. Kerber
8. Errani
9. Radwanska
10. Woz

JoPova
Dec 3rd, 2012, 06:01 PM
1. Kvitova
2. Li
3. Williams
4. Sharapova
5. Stosur
6. Azarenka
7. Kerber
8. Radwanska
9. Wozniacki
10. Errani

nazzac
Dec 3rd, 2012, 06:02 PM
1. Kvitova
2. Li
3. Serena
4. Sharapova
5. Azarenka
6. Stosur
7. Kerber
8. Errani
9. Radwanska
10. Wozniacki

danieln1
Dec 3rd, 2012, 06:17 PM
1. Li
2. Kvitova
3. Sharapova
4. Stosur
5. Williams
6. Azarenka
7. Kerber
8. Radwanska
9. Wozniacki
10. Errani

The OP could do a ranking at the end :oh:

Steven.
Dec 3rd, 2012, 06:17 PM
Sam is more aggressive than Serena and Maria? :unsure:

1. Kvitty (Kvitty and Na are as brainless as each other but Kvitty hits much bigger and much flatter)
2. Na

3. Rena (uses first strike tennis more often than Masha, but more content to rally than Kvitty and Na)
4. Masha




5. Sam (uses defensive slices too much to be considered anywhere near as aggressive as Rena/Maria)
6. Vika


7. Kerber


8. Errani (utilizes the net very often compared to Wozniacki)
9. Woz
10. Aga (she was on the defensive more often than not vs. Errani and Wozniacki)

that said I prefer watching Aga more than Errani/Woz

Cajka
Dec 3rd, 2012, 06:27 PM
By the way, Errani is capable of attacking properly when she gets a short ball, she likes coming forward too, she's going for her shots whenever she can. I have no idea why she's #10 on most of the lists here.

Stonerpova
Dec 3rd, 2012, 06:34 PM
1. Kvitova
2. Stosur
3. Sharapova
4. Li (she can be brainless, but she's not really a ballbasher when she's on her game)
5. Serena (she's a ballbasher, but not brainless)
6. Azarenka
7. Kerber
8. Radwanska
9. Errani
10. Wozniacki

The last 3 are basically interchangeable.

égalité
Dec 3rd, 2012, 06:52 PM
1. Kvitova
2. Li
3. Sharapova
4. Williams
5. Stosur
6. Azarenka
7. Radwanska
8. Kerber
9. Errani
10. Wozniacki

Natural Joe
Dec 3rd, 2012, 07:22 PM
The OP could do a ranking at the end :oh:

I might make one but only if there is an adequate number of posts.

Joe.
Dec 3rd, 2012, 07:38 PM
1) Kvitova
2) Li
3) Serena
4) Maria
5) Vika
6) Kerber
7) Stosur
8) Radwanska
9) Wozniacki
10) Errani

Coconut91
Dec 3rd, 2012, 07:46 PM
Sam is more aggressive than Serena and Maria? :unsure:

1. Kvitty (Kvitty and Na are as brainless as each other but Kvitty hits much bigger and much flatter)
2. Na

3. Rena (uses first strike tennis more often than Masha, but more content to rally than Kvitty and Na)
4. Masha




5. Sam (uses defensive slices too much to be considered anywhere near as aggressive as Rena/Maria)
6. Vika


7. Kerber


8. Errani (utilizes the net very often compared to Wozniacki)
9. Woz
10. Aga (she was on the defensive more often than not vs. Errani and Wozniacki)

that said I prefer watching Aga more than Errani/Woz

Agreed with this.

Nicolás89
Dec 3rd, 2012, 08:01 PM
From BBB to the most defensive player ;)

Kvitova
Serena
Li
Stosur
Azarenka
Kerber
Radwanska
Wozniacki
Errani

Harry.
Dec 3rd, 2012, 08:05 PM
1. Kvitova
2. Li Na
3. S. Williams
4. Sharapova
5. Stosur
6. Azarenka
7. Kerber
8. Errani
9. Wozniacki
10. A. Radwanska

Natural Joe
Dec 3rd, 2012, 08:11 PM
From BBB to the most defensive player ;)

Kvitova
Serena
Li
Stosur
Azarenka
Kerber
Radwanska
Wozniacki
Errani

You forgot about Maria. ;)

Setsuna.
Dec 3rd, 2012, 08:25 PM
Has been there any player who was more aggressive than Kvitova in the top 10 before? Maybe only Pierce but she was as aggressive as Petra not more I think. :scratch:

Cosmic Voices
Dec 3rd, 2012, 08:30 PM
1. Kvitova
2. Li [brainless]
3. Sharapova
4. Stosur
5. Serena
6. Azarenka [power pusher]
7. Kerber [can take her opportunities]
8. Errani
9. Radwanksa RUN RUN RUN :oh:
10. Wozniacki

actually when you look at it our top 10 is pretty nicely balanced

[ballbashers - aggressors]
kvitova, li, masha, stosur

[multi-talented]
serena

[power pushers]
vika, kerber

[pusher - defenders]
aga, errani, woz

Nicolás89
Dec 3rd, 2012, 08:31 PM
You forgot about Maria. ;)

All players are there. ;)

Brad[le]y.
Dec 3rd, 2012, 08:33 PM
Has been there any player who was more aggressive than Kvitova in the top 10 before? Maybe only Pierce but she was as aggressive as Petra not more I think. :scratch:

Navratilova and Novotna arguably were more aggressive. :shrug:

lenas warriors
Dec 3rd, 2012, 08:47 PM
Li
Kvitova
Sharapova
Stosur. Hard one, I dont consider her a ballbasher but deffo brainless sometimes
Serena
Azarenka
Kerber
Radwanska
Errani
Wozniacki

pling
Dec 3rd, 2012, 09:16 PM
I do think the difference between aggressive play and bashing is key.

Petra is an aggressive player and tries to finish points quickly. But she mixes up her shots a lot, hitting plenty of slices and net play (like drop volleys).

Maria is far less likely to mix up her play (rarely slices for example), and tends to wear her opponent down with consistent power - much more 'bash bash bash' style (but usually controlled, only sometimes brainless).

I'd put Maria & Li as top bashers, but Petra is more aggressive cos of her tendency to come forward more often. All of them can hit bucketloads of errors (brainless style) when off-form - but all can rein the errors right in when on-form.

FleetSeb
Dec 3rd, 2012, 09:20 PM
1. Kvitova
2. Na
3. Sharapova
4. Serena
5. Azarenka
6. Stosur
7. Errani
8. Kerber
9. Radwanska
10. Wozniacki

Manitou
Dec 3rd, 2012, 09:36 PM
Bash or push - whatever it takes to win. It's not figure skating where you are judged by style.

Anyway, this is my list:
1. Kvitova - a force with no brain. Close your eyes and hit as hard as possible. Sometimes it will make the court.
2. Sharapova - a smaller version of Azarenka - less force and less brain. However, much bigger spirit and persistence.
3. Azarenka - a smaller force than Kvitova's, but with some brain.

Bottom of the list:
8. Radwanska - no force, but excellent brain and defense. Master of smart attacks.
9. Errani - typical Italian catenaccio.
10. Wozniacka - no attacking skills at all, no brain, just push the ball over. Run down your opponent.

The problem with ball bashers is their self-confidence. To hit the ball hard with accuracy requires a lot of confidence. And that is not always present. Unless your name is Serena...


--

ScrubLove
Dec 3rd, 2012, 09:43 PM
Kvitova
Li
Serena
Sharapova
Stosur
Azarenka
Kerber
Radwanska
Wozniacki
Errani

sweetadri06
Dec 3rd, 2012, 09:47 PM
kvitova (when her shots don't go in it's a nightmare, no plan b)
li na (same situation as kvitova but can counterpunch to an extent)
serena(serena uses controlled aggression, which means she can hit big when she wants but will rally when needed)
sharapova ( content to hit big off both wings but not so well on the move; more consistent than Na, petra and serena)
stosur(only reason i put her here is because she hits the forehand very big, but i wouldn't call her a complete bbb)
azarenka(takes the ball early but prefers to use consistency rather than hit big)
kerber (uses power against bbb, counterpunches well and defends well)
errani(no real power at all uses slices and heavy topspin as well as defense.
wozniacki(relies the most on defensive skills to win matches but she can get some acceleration on her backhand)
radwanska (relies on defensive skills, dropshots, touch and guile; no power)

Stonerpova
Dec 3rd, 2012, 09:49 PM
kvitova (when her shots don't go in it's a nightmare, no plan b)
li na (same situation as kvitova but can counterpunch to an extent)
serena(serena uses controlled aggression, which means she can hit big when she wants but will rally when needed)
sharapova ( content to hit big off both wings but not so well on the move; more consistent than Na, petra and serena)
stosur(only reason i put her here is because she hits the forehand very big, but i wouldn't call her a complete bbb)
azarenka(takes the ball early but prefers to use consistency rather than hit big)
kerber (uses power against bbb, counterpunches well and defends well)
errani(no real power at all uses slices and heavy topspin as well as defense.
wozniacki(relies the most on defensive skills to win matches)

Such a good post.

Uranus
Dec 3rd, 2012, 09:59 PM
1. Kvitova
2. Li
3. Sharapova
4. Stosur
5. Azarenka
6. S. Williams
7. Kerber
8. Errani
9. Radwanska
10. Wozniacki

ZeroSumGame
Dec 3rd, 2012, 10:19 PM
1)Sharapova (absolute BB making her truly a one dimensional player)
2)Petra (Huge hitter but also has soft hands & can create angles)
3)Azarenka (intense BB)
4)Li Na (extreme BB needs a brain tho)
5)Serena (Tactically very smart, uses power to finish off shots)
6)Wozzy
7)Stosur
8)Kerber
9)Radwanska
10)Errani

dencod16
Dec 3rd, 2012, 11:17 PM
In other words, rank the players from the most aggressive to the most defensive.

Here's the current top 10 for those who already forgot: ;)

1. Azarenka
2. Sharapova
3. S. Williams
4. A. Radwanska
5. Kerber
6. Errani
7. Li Na
8. Kvitova
9. Stosur
10. Wozniacki

Pusher might be equal to pusher, but in no way does BBB (Brainless Ball Basher) equate to Aggressive, there is a difference between brainless ball basher and ball basher...

L'Enfant Sauvage
Dec 3rd, 2012, 11:26 PM
Li(not more powerful than Petra but more brainless.)
Kvitova
Sharapova
Stosur(As with the Li-Kvitova comparison, not more powerful than Serena, but more one-dimensional and more brainless for sure.)
Serena(Most consistent power player on the list, most likely to switch up her game when it's not working, and has the best defense as well.)
Azarenka(smack dab in the middle of the "bashers" and the "pushers")
Kerber(Vika's more defensive counterpart.)
Radwanska
Errani(Her and Aga are interchangeable, actually part of me feels Errani tries to be more aggressive than Aga does, but she just can't due to her slight frame and is forced on the defensive. Both at least have some aggression in terms of variety, rather than raw pace.)
Wozniacki(should be more powerful than Aga or Sara but unwillingness to step up means she is often unable to finish off points, while the other two are generally at least able to accomplish putting away sitters/coming to net.)

Natural Joe
Dec 3rd, 2012, 11:28 PM
Pusher might be equal to pusher, but in no way does BBB (Brainless Ball Basher) equate to Aggressive, there is a difference between brainless ball basher and ball basher...

Fair enough, I admit the title is not 100% accurate and we could argue about the definitions of the terms BBB and pusher. But I think people got what this is about. ;)

The Dawntreader
Dec 3rd, 2012, 11:30 PM
1. Li
2. Sharapova
3. Kvitova
4. Azarenka
5. Serena
6. Stosur
7. Kerber
8. Radwanska
9. Errani
10. Wozniacki

Cajka
Dec 3rd, 2012, 11:38 PM
Pusher might be equal to pusher, but in no way does BBB (Brainless Ball Basher) equate to Aggressive, there is a difference between brainless ball basher and ball basher...

Agreed.
And being aggressive doesn't always include slapping the ball. Vinci and MJMS should be considered aggressive although they are not big hitters.

Exordes
Dec 3rd, 2012, 11:52 PM
Fair enough, I admit the title is not 100% accurate and we could argue about the definitions of the terms BBB and pusher. But I think people got what this is about. ;)

Here´s what two experts said in 2009: http://youtu.be/hrxgoD1WCtA...:cool:

dsanders06
Dec 4th, 2012, 12:34 AM
Fair enough, I admit the title is not 100% accurate and we could argue about the definitions of the terms BBB and pusher. But I think people got what this is about. ;)

No actually, people are using "ball-basher" and "brainless ballbasher" interchangeably because it wasn't clear what you meant :shrug: For instance, as others have alluded to, Li certainly fits the "brainless" part, but she isn't a ballbasher atall, she's a counterpuncher who typically wins points in more extended rallies.

The Dawntreader
Dec 4th, 2012, 12:37 AM
No actually, people are using "ball-basher" and "brainless ballbasher" interchangeably because it wasn't clear what you meant :shrug: For instance, as others have alluded to, Li certainly fits the "brainless" part, but she isn't a ballbasher atall, she's a counterpuncher who typically wins points in more extended rallies.

You really need to stop perpetuating this utter fallacy.

dsanders06
Dec 4th, 2012, 12:43 AM
So basically, I'm ignoring the "brainless" part and just ranking them from players who have most aggressive strategies to most defensive:


01 Kvitova (definitely as pure a ballbasher as possible)

02 Serena (this is based on both Peakrena and 2012 version, who wins the points with 1-3 huge shots; the 2008-10 version, who played with more controlled aggression, would be #4 in this list)

03 Sharapova (doesn't on average win her points in quite as quick points as the top 2, but still typically looks to dictate to some extent from the beginning of the rally)

04 Stosur (a bit more of an enigma....plays more high-% than the top 3 in terms of raw pace and shot placement, but her shots are SO heavy that it doesn't matter)

--

05 Li (counterpuncher in the sense that she's at her best when absorbing and redirecting pace from her opponent, but she is prepared to go for it when she's in control of the point)

06 Azarenka (struggled to decide what order to put Aza and Li in....I feel like Li is more of an instinctive risk-taker, but at the same time, Aza is more capable of actually dictating a point from the beginning because her groundstrokes are so much more technically-sound)

--

07 Errani (even if she has less natural power than those below her, her mindset is still more aggressive and she does look to take charge of points if her opponent lets her)

08 Kerber

09 Radwanska (game consists of ~90% defense, but atleast occasionally takes on a semi-risky shot)

10 Wozniacki (truly only goes for a winner when the shot is a 100% can't-miss)

dsanders06
Dec 4th, 2012, 12:51 AM
You really need to stop perpetuating this utter fallacy.

Even the Eurosport commentators twigged on this when they acknowledged Li and Clijsters had similar gamestyles during their AO match this year....you know something's obvious when Eurosport commentators get there before TF's "experts"

danieln1
Dec 4th, 2012, 01:57 AM
Even the Eurosport commentators twigged on this when they acknowledged Li and Clijsters had similar gamestyles during their AO match this year....you know something's obvious when Eurosport commentators get there before TF's "experts"

But when Li is on "ErrorNa" mode, what is she counterpunching?

I think she´s going too much for her shots when this happens, and she becomes a brainless ballbasher by the instant.

Example: the 6-0 set she lost against Hingis in Melbourne 07, Miami 12 QF and many more

Valanga
Dec 4th, 2012, 02:35 AM
How the hell is Li a counterpuncher?

sweetadri06
Dec 4th, 2012, 02:42 AM
I don't agree with Li being like Clisjters, i mean Li can counterpunch at times but her natural game is to go for the winner immediately. why do you think she has such shit shows? When she is off her balls go into the stands. Clijsters will work the point alot more before delivering a blow.

MB.
Dec 4th, 2012, 03:57 AM
1. Kvitova
2. Li
3. Azarenka
4. Stosur
5. Sharapova
6. Serena (Serena is the most powerful ballbasher of them all, the thing is, she doesn't miss, that's why she's so good :lol:)
7. Kerber
8. Wozniacki
9. Radwanska
10. Errani

No way. Sam, Sharapova, Serena, all definitely above her.

Kəv.
Dec 4th, 2012, 04:12 AM
1. Kvitova
2. Li
3. Sharapova
4. Stosur
5. Serena
6. Azarenka
7. Kerber
8. Radwanska
9. Errani
10. Wozniacki :oh:

Aryman3
Dec 4th, 2012, 05:42 AM
The big difference between Radwanska and defensive players of Errani or Wozniacki types lies in that Aga has quite effective Game B, C or D.
She may play aggresively if she wants , serve and volley and so on. And she is very good at the net.

DomenicDemaria
Dec 4th, 2012, 05:50 AM
Serena is just as aggressive as Li and Kvitova (if not more agressive). I am confused at why people are dropping her down the list just because she can actually defend unlike Li and Kvitova. Tennis is not a one way game. You have to play both offensively and defensively. You wouldn't 15 slams if you weren't the most aggressive player on tour.

Kəv.
Dec 4th, 2012, 05:51 AM
Serena is just as aggressive as Li and Kvitova (if not more agressive). I am confused at why people are dropping her down the list just because she can actually defend unlike Li and Kvitova. Tennis is not a one way game. You have to play both offensively and defensively. You wouldn't 15 slams if you weren't the most aggressive player on tour.

Its because Serena isnt as Brainless as them

DomenicDemaria
Dec 4th, 2012, 05:56 AM
Its because Serena isnt as Brainless as them

The title of the thread says rate players from ball bashers to pusher yet the first post says from most aggressive to the most defensive. If my book they are two different things. Li and Kvitova are the biggest ball bashers but I still think Serena is the most aggressive player on tour.

Kəv.
Dec 4th, 2012, 06:00 AM
They probably just read the title that just says BBB, they are probably rating Serena under them because she is agressive but has a brain and can control her aggression, unlike Kvitova and Li

Six Feet Under
Dec 4th, 2012, 06:18 AM
1. Kvitova (no other game plan than ball bash)
2. Sharapova (will defend on the very odd occasion)
3. Serena (consistently hits the ball hard against most opponents, but can get into slower rallies and work the point)

4. Stosur
4. Li (both are aggresive and brainless at times, but generally play the point a bit slower)

6. Azarenka (consistently 80% paced ball)

7. Kerber
7. Errani (hits the ball if its there, generally on the defense)

9. Wozniacki
9. Radwanska (sometimes refuse to hit the ball hard and look for long slow rallies to play to their advantage)

doomsday
Dec 4th, 2012, 07:34 AM
kvitova (when her shots don't go in it's a nightmare, no plan b)
li na (same situation as kvitova but can counterpunch to an extent)
serena(serena uses controlled aggression, which means she can hit big when she wants but will rally when needed)
sharapova ( content to hit big off both wings but not so well on the move; more consistent than Na, petra and serena)
stosur(only reason i put her here is because she hits the forehand very big, but i wouldn't call her a complete bbb)
azarenka(takes the ball early but prefers to use consistency rather than hit big)
kerber (uses power against bbb, counterpunches well and defends well)
errani(no real power at all uses slices and heavy topspin as well as defense.
wozniacki(relies the most on defensive skills to win matches but she can get some acceleration on her backhand)
radwanska (relies on defensive skills, dropshots, touch and guile; no power)

Agree with this.
Sharapova used to bash the ball like crazy but not anymore, I think that Sharapova from 04-08 would stand more chances against Serena and Vika on HC but Maria's aggression is really controlled these days, sometimes she just rallies too much and exposes her movement a lil more, which is working on clay but not on HC against the very best.


Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App (http://www.verticalsports.com/mobile)

Jajaloo
Dec 4th, 2012, 07:36 AM
1. Li
2. Kvitova
3. Sharapova
4. Stosur
5. Williams
6. Azarenka
7. Kerber
8. Radwanska
9. Wozniacki
10. Errani

The OP could do a ranking at the end :oh:

My rankings too. :worship:

doomsday
Dec 4th, 2012, 07:51 AM
2. Sharapova - a smaller version of Azarenka - less force and less brain. However, much bigger spirit and persistence.

What ? :lol:


Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App (http://www.verticalsports.com/mobile)

Asif_Nawaz
Dec 4th, 2012, 07:51 AM
1. Li
2. Stosur
3. Kvitova
4. Serena
5. Sharapova
6. Kerber
7. Azarenka
8. Radwanska
9. Wozniacki
10. Errani

Natural Joe
Dec 4th, 2012, 08:16 AM
OK, sorry for all the confusion I caused by the thread title. It was meant as a reference to TF "slang" because people often use the words BBB and pusher more or less interchangeable for aggressive and defensive game style, which isn't quite accurate of course.

Now if someone creates a list please just add if you rank the players based on who's got the most BBB-like game style or on who you think is most aggressive.

Natural Joe
Dec 4th, 2012, 08:23 AM
Here´s what two experts said in 2009: http://youtu.be/hrxgoD1WCtA...:cool:

The experts have spoken. :worship: So Vika officially is a BBB, I'll have to remember that when someone calls her a pusher again. :oh:

Andy.
Dec 4th, 2012, 08:31 AM
1. Petra Kvitova
2. Li Na
3. Maria Sharapova
4. Serena Williams
5. Sam Stosur
6. Victoria Azareanka
7. Angelique Kerber
8. Caroline Wozniacki
9. Sara Errani
10. Agnieszka Radwanska

NashaMasha
Dec 4th, 2012, 08:37 AM
1) Li Na as an ultimate ballbasher
2) Kvitova , just can't control her aggression
3) Serena Williams (can turn into ultimate ballbasher when under mental pressure)
4) Sharapova (same as Serena)
5) Stosur
6) Azarenka , being overpowered turns into pusher , against low ranked players or underpowered is agressive
7) Errani (she is just too small and always overpowered by big girls , but she prefers to hit winners when in good positions)
8) Kerber - she is more like counterpuncher, but if she is not provided with fast balls from the opponent she is abolutely useless
9) Radwanska
10) Wozniacki

Chrissie-fan
Dec 4th, 2012, 08:41 AM
Something like this.....

1. Li
2. Kvitova
3. Sharapova
4. Williams
5. Stosur
6. Azarenka
7. Kerber
8. Radwanska
9. Errani
10. Wozniacki

Some probably consider it a compliment to be at or near the top of the list and an insult to be in the lower regions, but I don't think that either one is true. I don't see why, say, Wozniacki's defensive game is a negative while I should get excited because on a bad day Li and Kvitova play baseball instead of tennis.

BH both wings
Dec 4th, 2012, 08:41 AM
I my book, pushing and BBB'ing are two different dimensions:

BBB

1 Li (not a real hard hitter, but as brainless as they come)
2 Sharapova (when off, she is the ultimate BBB)
3 Kvitova (too much technical versatility for a pure BBB, but she comes damn close)
4 Williams (when off, she sprays just like the worst BBB, however, she is able to switch back to tennis eventually)
5 Stosur (she is half a BBB all the time)
6 Azarenka (when off, she hits flat and wild and almost as hard as Li)
7 Wozniacki (at least this season, she tried the Way Of The BBB several times, and her UE's looked very promising)

Pusher
1 Wozniacki (when she is on, she is almost the ultimate pusher)
2 Errani (not a pure pusher, but she has the right mentality)
3 Radwanska (classical tactical player who looks like a pusher more often than not)
4 Sharapova (against BBB's, especially on slow surfaces, she can become a quite convincing if a little slow pusher)
5 Williams (quite achieved tactical pusher)
6 Kerber (her game looks quite "pushy", but all matches she tries to push, she loses)
7 Azarenka (she becomes a pusher when overpowered by a solid hard-hitting rallying player, but not a good pusher
8 Stosur (half a pusher half the time)
9 Li (a tiny little bit like Williams, but without the patience)

sweetadri06
Dec 4th, 2012, 08:51 AM
Something like this.....

1. Li
2. Kvitova
3. Sharapova
4. Williams
5. Stosur
6. Azarenka
7. Kerber
8. Radwanska
9. Errani
10. Wozniacki

Some probably consider it a compliment to be at or near the top of the list and an insult to be in the lower regions, but I don't think that either one is true. I don't see why, say, Wozniacki's defensive game is a negative while I should get excited because on a bad day Li and Kvitova play baseball instead of tennis.

I don't think it's an insult to be at the top or bottom, we're just comparing how the top 10 games stack up against each other. (The term BBB and pusher are too broad,IMO) Some are more offensive minded(kvitova) and others are more defensive minded(Radwanska)while one player has the best of both worlds(Serena). One strategy may be more useful than another depending on the surface or at a specific time in a match.

Big_Banana
Dec 4th, 2012, 11:16 AM
I don't see why, say, Wozniacki's defensive game is a negative while I should get excited because on a bad day Li and Kvitova play baseball instead of tennis.

baseball Na :rocker2: :oh:

Chrissie-fan
Dec 4th, 2012, 11:33 AM
baseball Na :rocker2: :oh:
:lol: Well, you know that I love her. And she'll probably be the first athlete in history to be inducted in both the tennis and baseball HOF. :worship: ;)

Big_Banana
Dec 4th, 2012, 11:37 AM
:lol: Well, you know that I love her. And she'll probably be the first athlete in history to be inducted in both the tennis and baseball HOF. :worship: ;)

never seen an home run like hers :lol:

ZeroSumGame
Dec 4th, 2012, 01:35 PM
The title of the thread says rate players from ball bashers to pusher yet the first post says from most aggressive to the most defensive. If my book they are two different things. Li and Kvitova are the biggest ball bashers but I still think Serena is the most aggressive player on tour.

Nope!! She just drives a BMW which has seven gears, she can literally switch gears instantly if she feels threatened, she's amongst the few players who can switch in the middle of a match, i.e. confidence & belief (she has a strategy for every player she faces i.e. she can be a pusher or BB or both :lol::lol:)

nevetssllim
Dec 4th, 2012, 01:52 PM
I think Sam is the most difficult to rank. She could either be 1-2 (balloons everything out) or 8-10 (loops up the FH and innocuously slices the BH from deep behind the baseline) on her various bad days.

Losing Streak
Dec 4th, 2012, 03:33 PM
From BBB to pusher:

1. Kvitova
2. Sharapova
3. Serena
4. Li Na
5. Stosur
6. Azarenka
7. Kerber
8. Aga
9. Wozniacki
10. Errani

dsanders06
Dec 4th, 2012, 03:56 PM
I don't agree with Li being like Clisjters, i mean Li can counterpunch at times but her natural game is to go for the winner immediately. why do you think she has such shit shows? When she is off her balls go into the stands. Clijsters will work the point alot more before delivering a blow.

This isn't true though. Watch her best matches against Sharapova, Kvitova, Venus and Serena -- time and time again, she is content to start off the point by just hitting pedestrian shots down the middle of the court and allow her opponent to get the first strike, Na chases those first few blows down and redirects them into the extremities of the court. Again, I'm not saying she's a pusher, she's at the more offensive-minded end of the counter-punchers spectrum, but there's a reason she matches up so well with those players I mentioned who hate playing counterpunchers. And it goes for Li's bad match-ups too -- if she was this monstrous flat-hitter that people here think she is, she would match up well with Stosur like players of that ilk do, yet in reality she hates playing her because she doesn't get the first strike in against her, and it's well-documented that you can't counterpunch against heavy topspin (as Zvonareva finds out when she plays Stosur).

And, further, even when Li is at her most aggressive, her brand of aggression is more about using the width of the court, creating space, and stroking the ball into the open court once she's got her opponent out of position. She's NEVER been about blasting the ball at a trillion miles an hour on the first shot of the rally, a la Kvitova.

But when Li is on "ErrorNa" mode, what is she counterpunching?

I think she´s going too much for her shots when this happens, and she becomes a brainless ballbasher by the instant.

Example: the 6-0 set she lost against Hingis in Melbourne 07, Miami 12 QF and many more

Li's error-sprees are usually more about her mentally checking out of the match completely and her footwork completely dissolving, rather than her going for low-% shots. She can miss even the most regulation shots that she's just trying to get into court on her worst days, especially off her technically-poor forehand side.

The Dawntreader
Dec 4th, 2012, 04:53 PM
Absolute rubbish. Li for a start doesn't move half as well as any innate counter-puncher. A strong, powerful mover, but she's nowhere near as supple as Jankovic, Pennetta, Bondarenko, Myskina, post 2007-Demetieva, and nor is she as reliant on it. Her shot selection isn't anywhere near as conservative as a true-counter puncher, she hits with much more width, she goes for often low % shots (especially on her FH), her footwork is incredibly aggressive around the ball, and her instincts are to land blows as early as she can in the rally. Now this does not mean first-strike tennis in the ilk of Davenport, but it does NOT mean she's a counter-puncher. She's an aggressive ball-striker who can RALLY. There is a distinct difference and a fundamental gamestyle that isn't even related to a counter-puncher.

No counter-puncher would ever spray the amount of shit she can on court. The margins that a counter-puncher plays with are huge, relying on consistency off the ground and deflecting pace. Li can generate her own pace for a start. Do people really think Li was 'counter-punching' against Schiavone's junk and loop in the RG final? Or when she beat Wozniacki in Australia? Or when she demolished the ultimate puff-baller Radwanska in Cincinnatti? Or when she demolished Azarenka in the AO and RG in 2011? She was playing, aggressive, authoritative tennis that had the luxury of above-average athleticism to allow her to rally effectively. But that is not counter-punching. Counter-punching as a game-style needs to be the primary instinct of a player, not just one vague characteristic.

It's absolutely ridiculous.

dsanders06
Dec 4th, 2012, 05:20 PM
No counter-puncher would ever spray the amount of shit she can on court. The margins that a counter-puncher plays with are huge, relying on consistency off the ground and deflecting pace.

Total misconception. Considering how obsessed you are with Clijsters, you must surely be aware that, in her second career, on her off-days she could spray the ball just as much as Li can (even though Kim's off-days were less frequent). And I'm sure even you wouldn't deny that Clijsters was a counterpuncher. Ditto Jankovic, who on her worst days can make dozens of errors even with a relatively conservative gameplan. The idea that you only make errors when you're trying to go for huge shots was disproven long ago.

Li can generate her own pace for a start. Do people really think Li was 'counter-punching' against Schiavone's junk and loop in the RG final? Or when she beat Wozniacki in Australia? Or when she demolished the ultimate puff-baller Radwanska in Cincinnatti? Or when she demolished Azarenka in the AO and RG in 2011? She was playing, aggressive, authoritative tennis that had the luxury of above-average athleticism to allow her to rally effectively. But that is not counter-punching. Counter-punching as a game-style needs to be the primary instinct of a player, not just one vague characteristic.

No, Li is NOT good at generating her own pace -- she hates having to do it because she doesn't have the raw firepower or technique to do it with anything approaching consistency. The AO2011 final is the perfect example of this -- the turning point in that match was Clijsters starting to feed her junk shot after junk shot, which resulted in Li either simply patting the ball back in exchange, or, on the occasion she did try to hit a huge shot off of Clijsters's puffballs, she missed horribly.

Of the examples you listed -- actually she did counterpunch to beat Azarenka in Australia and Paris in 2011. Azarenka was still under the impression she was a ballbasher at this stage and was trying to hit with as much power as she could, which played right into Li's hands and gave her the pace and presented the targets on the court for her to aim into. Azarenka only turned that match-up around by deliberately playing more conservatively against Li in their latest matches, constantly just hitting mid-paced shots into the centre of the court and forcing Li to be the aggressor and construct the point herself, and predictably Li was incapable of doing it.

Li's latest matches against Radwanska are the only real times she's managed to play well against someone who doesn't give her pace to work with, but it's only since she linked up with Rodriguez that she managed to actually figure her out. Her performance against her in Stuttgart, on the surface where Li should match up best with Radwanska, was completely inept.

J4m3ka
Dec 4th, 2012, 06:56 PM
Absolute rubbish. Li for a start doesn't move half as well as any innate counter-puncher. A strong, powerful mover, but she's nowhere near as supple as Jankovic, Pennetta, Bondarenko, Myskina, post 2007-Demetieva, and nor is she as reliant on it. Her shot selection isn't anywhere near as conservative as a true-counter puncher, she hits with much more width, she goes for often low % shots (especially on her FH), her footwork is incredibly aggressive around the ball, and her instincts are to land blows as early as she can in the rally. Now this does not mean first-strike tennis in the ilk of Davenport, but it does NOT mean she's a counter-puncher. She's an aggressive ball-striker who can RALLY. There is a distinct difference and a fundamental gamestyle that isn't even related to a counter-puncher.

No counter-puncher would ever spray the amount of shit she can on court. The margins that a counter-puncher plays with are huge, relying on consistency off the ground and deflecting pace. Li can generate her own pace for a start. Do people really think Li was 'counter-punching' against Schiavone's junk and loop in the RG final? Or when she beat Wozniacki in Australia? Or when she demolished the ultimate puff-baller Radwanska in Cincinnatti? Or when she demolished Azarenka in the AO and RG in 2011? She was playing, aggressive, authoritative tennis that had the luxury of above-average athleticism to allow her to rally effectively. But that is not counter-punching. Counter-punching as a game-style needs to be the primary instinct of a player, not just one vague characteristic.

It's absolutely ridiculous.
:worship:

Petronius
Dec 4th, 2012, 08:59 PM
Something like this.....

1. Li
2. Kvitova
3. Sharapova
4. Williams
5. Stosur
6. Azarenka
7. Kerber
8. Radwanska
9. Errani
10. Wozniacki

Some probably consider it a compliment to be at or near the top of the list and an insult to be in the lower regions, but I don't think that either one is true.

Well, like it or not, but the top four players in your list have won 21 slams and 5 YECs (combined).

The bottom four players of your list have won ZERO slams and ZERO year-end-championships.

Experience is telling us that players who are labelled by some as brainless ballbashers like Li and Petra can once in a while (two weeks is enough :lol:) keep their shots between the lines and win a slam.




[ballbashers - aggressors]
kvitova, li, masha, stosur

[multi-talented]
serena

[power pushers]
vika, kerber

[pusher - defenders]
aga, errani, woz


Great way to look at it, I agree, although there are obviously some notable differences within individual groups.

pling
Dec 4th, 2012, 11:13 PM
Not that I have too much time on my hands :o - but I used the Winner/UE stats at matchstat.com to see how the top 10 compared.

I know Winner/UE stats are notorious for potential subjectivity, but thought it was at least worth a look.

** FOR 2012 SLAMS **

Bash Factor® (UE as % of points lost)
44% - Maria :p
43% - Petra
42% - Na
39% - Serena
37% - Vika
36% - Sam
29% - Angie
26% - Caro
25% - Sara
22% - Aga

Attacking Force® (Winners as % of points won)
45% - Serena :worship:
36% - Maria
34% - Petra
33% - Na
32% - Sam
30% - Angie
29% - Vika
25% - Aga
24% - Sara
21% - Caro

Pushing Power® (Opponents' UE as % of points won)
49% - Sara
48% - Caro
42% - Aga
38% - Angie
32% - Na
32% - Sam
26% - Petra
25% - Vika
23% - Serena
20% - Maria

Vulnerability Quotient® (Opponents' Winners as % of points lost)
50% - Sara
48% - Aga
43% - Caro
39% - Angie
26% - Sam
24% - Serena
22% - Vika
21% - Petra
18% - Na
18% - Maria

As I was still bored I did the same for last year :)

** FOR 2011 SLAMS **

Bash Factor® (UE as % of points lost)
44% - Na
43% - Maria
40% - Petra
37% - Serena
35% - Sam
32% - Angie
27% - Vika
26% - Aga
24% - Caro
23% - Sara

Attacking Force® (Winners as % of points won)
42% - Petra :drool:
41% - Serena
35% - Angie
33% - Maria
33% - Sam
30% - Na
28% - Vika
27% - Aga
26% - Sara
20% - Caro

Pushing Power® (Opponents' UE as % of points won)
47% - Aga
46% - Caro
40% - Sara
32% - Angie
31% - Na
30% - Sam
26% - Serena
24% - Vika
23% - Maria
21% - Petra

Vulnerability Quotient® (Opponents' Winners as % of points lost)
44% - Sara
44% - Caro
44% - Aga
38% - Angie
31% - Sam
29% - Vika
26% - Serena
21% - Maria
20% - Na
17% - Petra

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I've always thought of Maria as the most 'bash-prone' of the top players. For 2011 and 2012 combined she tops the stats for the UE ratio (ahead of Na and then Petra), but is 3rd (behind Serena and Petra) for the winners ratio.

Which would indeed imply that for the last two years, Maria has been (on average, and only just) the player least able to control her aggressive play at the slam level :shrug:

Petronius
Dec 4th, 2012, 11:32 PM
Not that I have too much time on my hands :o - but I used the Winner/UE stats at matchstat.com to see how the top 10 compared.

http://www.zingerbug.com/Comments/glitter_graphics/you_rock_3d_guitar.gif

tennis-insomniac
Dec 5th, 2012, 12:43 AM
Li is a ballbasher because most of the time that is how she plays; it is her instinct to be aggressive and goes for shots that are not there. However, dsander is right that she is better when counter-punching, reflecting pace, and redirecting the shots to make winners––that is why her sole grand slam came on clay. But that style does not last, since she lost most of her superb athleticism she had in 2010-mid 2011. Plus, her short temper does destroy that talent in her; therefore, she will self-destruct and completely switches off to BBB mode: for example, her AO final match in 2011 against Clijsters in which she was surely going to win, but went cuckoo because of the immense pressure from the Chinese crowd. Moreover, I belief that patience she had during her prime was diminished, although I'm not sure whether the decreased patience is related to her declined athleticism, but I would assume they are.

So here you go. I will not rank Li as counter-pucher because it is not in her instinct, like how Azarenka had tried to be ball-basher, and that also didn't work out well––Azarenka is naturally counter-puncher with controlled aggression.

Pasta-Na
Dec 5th, 2012, 01:01 AM
Li is a ballbasher because most of the time that is how she plays; it is her instinct to be aggressive and goes for shots that are not there. However, dsander is right that she is better when counter-punching, reflecting pace, and redirecting the shots to make winners––that is why her sole grand slam came on clay. But that style does not last, since she lost most of her superb athleticism she had in 2010-mid 2011. Plus, her short temper does destroy that talent in her; therefore, she will self-destruct and completely switches off to BBB mode: for example, her AO final match in 2011 against Clijsters in which she was surely going to win, but went cuckoo because of the immense pressure from the Chinese crowd. Moreover, I belief that patience she had during her prime was diminished, although I'm not sure whether the decreased patience is related to her declined athleticism, but I would assume they are.

So here you go. I will not rank Li as counter-pucher because it is not in her instinct, like how Azarenka had tried to be ball-basher, and that also didn't work out well––Azarenka is naturally counter-puncher with controlled aggression.

Carlos said so. :o He said something like Na's fh or bh broke down or she just wanted to keep the points short when she was tired this year. Stamina is one of the things that Carlos wants to help Na to improve in Winter training.

Renalicious
Dec 5th, 2012, 02:21 AM
1. Li
2. Kvitova
3. Stosur
4. Sharapova
5. Serena
6. Azarenka
7. Kerber
8. Errani
9. Radwanska
10. Wozniacki

Petronius
Dec 5th, 2012, 09:56 AM
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I've always thought of Maria as the most 'bash-prone' of the top players. For 2011 and 2012 combined she tops the stats for the UE ratio (ahead of Na and then Petra), but is 3rd (behind Serena and Petra) for the winners ratio.

Which would indeed imply that for the last two years, Maria has been (on average, and only just) the player least able to control her aggressive play at the slam level :shrug:

Maria has hundreds of fans on this forum so don't expect this forum to admit that her ballbashing is even more brainless than that of Petra and Li in spite of the hard statistics :lol:

As you can see from additional posts, the myth continues, with people putting Li and Petra ahead of Maria :lol:

BTW, I think some netplay statistics (net points / net attempts) might be also interesting.

Setsuna.
Dec 5th, 2012, 10:05 AM
Maria has hundreds of fans on this forum so don't expect this forum to admit that her ballbashing is even more brainless than that of Petra and Li in spite of the hard statistics :lol:

As you can see from additional posts, the myth continues, with people putting Li and Petra ahead of Maria :lol:

BTW, I think some netplay statistics (net points / net attempts) might be also interesting.

I ranked Li, Petra and Serena ahead of Maria because I find them more aggressive than her not more brainless. IMO the title should be changed to "Rank the top 10 from the most offensive to the most defensive". That's what the OP meant I think.

Povin
Dec 5th, 2012, 11:25 AM
I ranked Li, Petra and Serena ahead of Maria because I find them more aggressive than her not more brainless. IMO the title should be changed to "Rank the top 10 from the most offensive to the most defensive". That's what the OP meant I think.

There is a problem. It should either "the most offensive to the most defensive" or "the smartest to the most brainless". Offensive does not always mean brainless. Serena is an example. I believe that Kvitova has a smart non-2D game, but it is the matter if her game is on; it is very hard to keep control of such power and accuracy she SOMETIMES has. Whereas, Wozniacki is defensive, but her game does not seem very smart. I see no combinations in her game, just deep defensive shots. She does not use her chances, but is fantastically athletic.
So BBB is kind of a stereotypical category :shrug:

UDACHi
Dec 5th, 2012, 11:57 PM
1. li
2. kvitova
3. sharapova
4. azarenka
5. serena
6. stosur
7. kerber
8. radwanska
9. wozniacki
10. errani

Cajka
Dec 6th, 2012, 03:32 AM
Serena is just as aggressive as Li and Kvitova (if not more agressive). I am confused at why people are dropping her down the list just because she can actually defend unlike Li and Kvitova. Tennis is not a one way game. You have to play both offensively and defensively. You wouldn't 15 slams if you weren't the most aggressive player on tour.

Serena can play more aggressive than Kvitova, there's no doubt, but this not about ballbashing potential, it's about what they do on the court. The thing is that Serena has options, while Kvitty's options are limited. For sure she can improve her defense (like Ivanovic did in 2008), but she'll never reach Serena's level in that department. Her fitness is a huge issue atm, so she's forced to finish the point fast. Serena rallies more often and with much more success.

Start da Game
Dec 6th, 2012, 04:05 AM
1. Kvitova
2. S. Williams
3. Azarenka
4. A. Radwanska
5. Li Na
6. Stosur
7. Kerber
8. Sharapova (screaming is not aggression)
9. Errani
10. Wozniacki

Sammo
Dec 6th, 2012, 06:38 PM
N
Bash Factor® (UE as % of points lost)
44% - Maria :p
43% - Petra
42% - Na
39% - Serena
37% - Vika
36% - Sam
29% - Angie
26% - Caro
25% - Sara
22% - Aga

Attacking Force® (Winners as % of points won)
45% - Serena :worship:
36% - Maria
34% - Petra
33% - Na
32% - Sam
30% - Angie
29% - Vika
25% - Aga
24% - Sara
21% - Caro

Pushing Power® (Opponents' UE as % of points won)
49% - Sara
48% - Caro
42% - Aga
38% - Angie
32% - Na
32% - Sam
26% - Petra
25% - Vika
23% - Serena
20% - Maria

Vulnerability Quotient® (Opponents' Winners as % of points lost)
50% - Sara
48% - Aga
43% - Caro
39% - Angie
26% - Sam
24% - Serena
22% - Vika
21% - Petra
18% - Na
18% - Maria


Golda Errani shining on every aspect of pushing :cheer: