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JN
Nov 28th, 2012, 12:08 AM
Florida teen killed in dispute over loud music

Posted: 11:04 a.m. Tuesday, Nov. 27, 2012 | Updated: 5:05 p.m. Tuesday, Nov. 27, 2012

View Larger (http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/img/photos/2012/11/27/80/3c/davis.jpg)
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Jordan Davis was shot at a gas station in Jacksonville.

View Larger (http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/img/photos/2012/11/27/0c/82/Michael-Dunn.jpg)
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Michael Dunn is accused of killing a 17-year-old in an argument over loud music.

A man is facing murder and attempted murder charges for allegedly shooting a 17-year-old student at a Jacksonville gas station in a dispute over loud music.

The suspect, Michael Dunn, told police he felt threatened during an argument Friday with Jordan Davis after Dunn complained the music the teen was playing in his car was too loud.

Jacksonville homicide Lt. Rob Schoonover said Dunn pulled out a weapon and started firing into the vehicle. Davis was shot a few times. Eight or nine bullet holes were also found in the car.

Davis was originally from Marietta and will be buried there, the Florida Times-Union reported.

“Our suspect produced a weapon and started firing into the vehicle. Our victim was shot a couple of times,” Schoonover said. “ … They were listening to the music. It was loud; they [other teens] admitted that. But I mean that is not a reason for someone to open fire on them.”

The Times-Union (http://www.ittybittyurl.com/her) reported that Dunn and his girlfriend allegedly drove to their hotel in Jacksonville, then returned home to Brevard County when they heard about the shooting on the news.

Dunn has pleaded not guilty. He was officially booked into the Duval County Jail on Tuesday afternoon and is expected to make a court appearance Wednesday morning.

Jordan was a student at Samuel W. Wolfson High School, a magnet school in Duval County.

Florida corporate records show Dunn is vice president of Dunn & Dunn Data Systems in Vero Beach, the Orlando Sentinel reported. He supervises software development, according to his LinkedIn profile.

Atlanta Journal Constitution (http://www.ajc.com/news/news/florida-teen-killed-in-dispute-over-loud-music/nTGZ8/)


RIP young brother. Thanks to confessed murderer George Zimmerman it's open season on Black male teens in Florida. Funny it's always the one with the gun who feels threatened.

Flavia P.
Nov 28th, 2012, 12:32 AM
I read the murderous idiot was drunk and belligerent coming from his son's wedding. Dunn said there was a gun in the car and he was scared they were going to shoot him, but the police found no guns on the kids nor in the car. Just another paranoid racist bastard. RIP to Jordan Davis and well wishes go out to all those grieving his senseless loss.

hablo
Nov 28th, 2012, 12:54 AM
Oh my ... oh my ... and he plead not guilty? pfft. :speakles:

mykarma
Nov 28th, 2012, 01:25 AM
I read the murderous idiot was drunk and belligerent coming from his son's wedding. Dunn said there was a gun in the car and he was scared they were going to shoot him, but the police found no guns on the kids nor in the car. Just another paranoid racist bastard. RIP to Jordan Davis and well wishes go out to all those grieving his senseless loss.
After murdering this kid he goes back to the hotel and then drives home. What a cold hearted excuse for a human being but that's Florida for you.

miffedmax
Nov 28th, 2012, 02:06 AM
Why the fuck do you even pick a fight over music at a gas station?

I can understand saying something (not shooting someone) if, say, it's a neighbor at your apartment or home at something, but at a damn gas station? Like you can't pump gas and drive off in two or three minutes and put up with somebody else's music? I mean that's just stupid.

JN
Nov 28th, 2012, 08:31 AM
After murdering this kid he goes back to the hotel and then drives home. What a cold hearten excuse for a human being but that's Florida for you.

And of course his lawyer immediately referenced the 'Stand Your Ground' defense.
Michael Dunn Shoots, Kills Unarmed Black Teen Jordan Davis

By Michael Allen, Tue, November 27, 2012

Michael Dunn, of Satellite Beach, Florida, was in Jacksonville this past weekend for his son’s wedding.

Jordan Davis, 17, and some other teens were sitting in a SUV in a parking lot when Dunn parked next to them and asked the youths to turn down their music.

Jordan Davis and Dunn argued over the music, then Dunn, who is a gun collector, pulled a gun and shot eight or nine times, hitting Jordan twice, reports the Orlando Sentinel.

Jordan Davis' father Ron Davis said his unarmed son died in the arms of a friend in the SUV.

Dunn and his girlfriend took off, but witnesses wrote down their license plate number, according to the police.

The couple was staying in a Jacksonville hotel when they heard a news report Saturday morning about the shooting, so they drove home to Satellite Beach, Florida.

Dunn was arrested at his home on Saturday and charged with murder and attempted murder. He is being held without bail.

Dunn’s attorney said that he acted responsibly and in self-defense. Dunn may use Florida’s 'Stand Your Ground' law, which became famous after the Trayvon Martin killing.

Opposing Views (http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/crime/michael-dunn-shoots-kills-unarmed-black-teen-jordan-davis)http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/8284/smh2.gif


Why the fuck do you even pick a fight over music at a gas station?

I can understand saying something (not shooting someone) if, say, it's a neighbor at your apartment or home at something, but at a damn gas station? Like you can't pump gas and drive off in two or three minutes and put up with somebody else's music? I mean that's just stupid.

My guess is because you wanna kill someone and you know the state of Florida will have your back.

King Halep
Nov 28th, 2012, 08:59 AM
music and private space are very important to some people at this time when the federal government are trying to take our personal rights and freedom away from us. dont let them take our guns away!

JN
Nov 28th, 2012, 09:21 AM
music and private space are very important to some people at this time when the federal government are trying to take our personal rights and freedom away from us. dont let them take our guns away!

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z225/dongoliano/teabag-me.jpg

Note: Disregard if that was sarcasm.

edificio
Nov 28th, 2012, 09:09 PM
Why the fuck do you even pick a fight over music at a gas station?

I can understand saying something (not shooting someone) if, say, it's a neighbor at your apartment or home at something, but at a damn gas station? Like you can't pump gas and drive off in two or three minutes and put up with somebody else's music? I mean that's just stupid.

Exactly. Just shows where this guy was coming from. Just looking to pick a fight. Scary people with guns. Damn, where is our "well-regulated militia"? Just bellicose, possibly racist idiots with guns.

miffedmax
Nov 28th, 2012, 11:20 PM
Exactly. Just shows where this guy was coming from. Just looking to pick a fight. Scary people with guns. Damn, where is our "well-regulated militia"? Just bellicose, possibly racist idiots with guns.

Exactly. And there have been some incidents I recall where the person requesting that the stereo being turned down was being reasonable and THEY ended up getting shot. Not that this is what happened here, I'm just agreeing with you that there are always assholes looking for fights and way too many of them have guns.

wild.river
Nov 28th, 2012, 11:23 PM
Why the fuck do you even pick a fight over music at a gas station?

I can understand saying something (not shooting someone) if, say, it's a neighbor at your apartment or home at something, but at a damn gas station? Like you can't pump gas and drive off in two or three minutes and put up with somebody else's music? I mean that's just stupid.

Question 2: Why the fuck do you bring a gun to a gas station unless you intend to rob it?

JN
Nov 28th, 2012, 11:36 PM
Question 2: Why the fuck do you bring a gun to a gas station unless you intend to rob it?

Florida is a concealed carry state, so he probably always has it with him for a time such as this where he can "stand his ground." :rolleyes:

RVD
Nov 29th, 2012, 12:46 AM
THIS is the part of the story that I can't believe: Michael David Dunn, 45, acted "as any responsible firearms owner would have," his lawyer said of the Friday evening incident at a gas station outside a convenience store in Jacksonville, Fla.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/28/15513847-florida-man-pleads-not-guilty-to-shooting-teen-to-death-over-loud-music?liteSo in other words, this red-necked bastard was completely within his rights to shoot (and murder) an unarmed TEEN over loud music.

Welcome to America.

Bijoux0021
Nov 29th, 2012, 01:34 AM
This so-called 'Stand Your Ground' law wouldn't exist if it were black men using it as an excuse to kill white teens.

*JR*
Nov 29th, 2012, 01:36 AM
1) I think this is inexcusable, even if young Mr. Davis traded insults with the shooter first.

2) I doubt that Dunn will get away with it. (He'll probably get between 25 years and life).

3) If he did it because of George Zimmerman, just who was the latter's role model? :confused:

4) While I'm sorry Zimmerman is out on bail, I still think he'll be convicted, my guess being for manslaughter. (Which carries a sentence of 25 years in FL, if the victim is under 18, as Trayvon Martin was on 2/26/12).

5) I'm amazed (not) by posts taking what his lawyer said about self-defense as the "verdict". :rolleyes:

6) Its malpractice not to do a lawyer's best for a client, obviously starting with a Not Guilty plea.

7) If a defendant enters NO plea, the court automatically enters one of Not Guilty for him or her.

8) Anyone can assert a claim of having stood one's ground in FL and the other states that have such a law; with NO guarantee that it will work in court.

================================================== ===============

miffedmax
Nov 29th, 2012, 01:56 AM
Well, that's another part of the problem. Without a gun to make him feel like a big man, this guy probably wouldn't have said jack.

JN
Dec 3rd, 2012, 08:34 PM
Melissa Harris-Perry Mourns Death Of Jordan Davis (VIDEO)

By Katherine Fung (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/katherine-fung) | Posted: 12/02/2012 11:43 am EST

NHqomZskG1I

Melissa Harris-Perry mourned the death of Jordan Davis, an unarmed black teenager shot and killed in Florida, on Saturday.

Davis, a 17-year old boy, was shot (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/30/jordan-davis-teen-loud-music-trayvon-martin_n_2217444.html) by Michael David Dunn last week during an exchange about loud music at a gas station. Dunn fired shots into the SUV where Davis was in the backseat, claiming that he saw a shotgun in the car. No shotgun has been found and Dunn has been charged with second degree murder.

On Saturday, Harris-Perry drew parallels between Davis' death and the killing of Trayvon Martin (http://huffingtonpost.com/news/trayvon-martin), a black teenager who was also unarmed when he was shot and killed by George Zimmermann earlier this year. One similarity, she said, was "that sense for those of us who know them and love them that this country is no place for young black men."

Citing the gruesome murder of Emmett Till in the 1950s, she said that one thing has remained the same over generations of American history: "No presumption of innocence for young black men, no benefit of the doubt. Guilt not determined by what they did or said but presumed to be inherent in their very being. They need not wield a weapon to pose a threat because if you are a young black man, you are threat enough."

Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/02/melissa-harris-perry-jordan-davis_n_2227793.html)

RVD
Dec 3rd, 2012, 09:16 PM
Melissa Harris-Perry Mourns Death Of Jordan Davis (VIDEO)

By Katherine Fung (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/katherine-fung) | Posted: 12/02/2012 11:43 am EST

NHqomZskG1I

Melissa Harris-Perry mourned the death of Jordan Davis, an unarmed black teenager shot and killed in Florida, on Saturday.

Davis, a 17-year old boy, was shot (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/30/jordan-davis-teen-loud-music-trayvon-martin_n_2217444.html) by Michael David Dunn last week during an exchange about loud music at a gas station. Dunn fired shots into the SUV where Davis was in the backseat, claiming that he saw a shotgun in the car. No shotgun has been found and Dunn has been charged with second degree murder.

On Saturday, Harris-Perry drew parallels between Davis' death and the killing of Trayvon Martin (http://huffingtonpost.com/news/trayvon-martin), a black teenager who was also unarmed when he was shot and killed by George Zimmermann earlier this year. One similarity, she said, was "that sense for those of us who know them and love them that this country is no place for young black men."

Citing the gruesome murder of Emmett Till in the 1950s, she said that one thing has remained the same over generations of American history: "No presumption of innocence for young black men, no benefit of the doubt. Guilt not determined by what they did or said but presumed to be inherent in their very being. They need not wield a weapon to pose a threat because if you are a young black man, you are threat enough."

Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/02/melissa-harris-perry-jordan-davis_n_2227793.html)I will never understand the inherent fear that people experience with young Black youths, who are not harassing anyone, to the point of lethality.
It's as if these offenders need to feel superior and see a right to let off steam in killing someone.
These were kids out enjoying one another's company.
Not threatening anyone.
And then to outright lie about these kids carrying a shotgun to feign justification?!

There are modified high-rise trucks with White teens in them blasting Rock-n-Roll music and no one bats an eye. So why the extreme hatred and fear of Black youths playing loud music? It's crazy!!
A family just lost a son, brother, loved one, over music?!
Such a sad culture we have here in the US. :sad:

JN
Dec 3rd, 2012, 09:41 PM
Black students in Tallahassee demand ‘Justice for Jordan Davis’

By Staff | December 2, 2012

http://www.fightbacknews.org/sites/default/files/imagecache/article-lead-photo/tallahassee%20protest%20dream%20defenders%20justic e%20lights.jpg (http://www.fightbacknews.org/sites/default/files/tallahassee%20protest%20dream%20defenders%20justic e%20lights.jpg)
Candles spell out justice at vigil for Jordan Davis (Fight Back! News/Staff)

http://www.fightbacknews.org/sites/default/files/imagecache/article-more-photos-thumb/tallahassee%20protest%20dream%20defenders1.jpg (http://www.fightbacknews.org/sites/default/files/tallahassee%20protest%20dream%20defenders1.jpg)
Black student organizations demand justice for Jordan Davis

Tallahassee, FL - On Dec. 1, just after sunset, Black student organizations from Florida State University (FSU) and Florida Agricultural and Mechanical University (FAMU) held a candlelight vigil for Jordan Davis. Davis, a 17-year-old Black teen was violently gunned down in Jacksonville while in the backseat of a friend's car by a middle-aged white male bigot, supposedly over the volume of the car's music.

On Nov. 23, Michael Dunn unloaded a vicious barrage of eight shots into a SUV parked in a Duval County gas station. Two rounds struck and killed young Davis. Although arrested the next day at his south Florida home, the Dunn defense relys on Florida’s Stand Your Ground law for protection from justice.

Although the vigil did not directly address this law, it did address the system which demonizes black males as a threat to the white-supremacist system. Reminiscent of vigils for the hate-crime homicide of Trayvon Martin, the mostly Black, 50-student vigil heard speeches condemning the deep-seeded and perpetual association of Black being an inherent threat - an association solely supported by a crutch of bigotry.

Kristen Bonner, president of Dream Defenders at FSU spoke to the crowd, saying “I'm tired. Tired of Black skin being associated with adjectives such as threatening, suspicious and dangerous. I'm tired of only knowing that these Black youth have existed because they are dead.”

Also present at the vigil were leaders from FAMU Dream Defenders, Progressive Black Men INC. and the Black Student Union at FSU. Shantel Moten, Assistant Director of Pride at FSU (an LGBTQ student organization) said in her speech, “We need to fight back against the white hetero-patriarchal system.”

FightBack!News (http://www.fightbacknews.org/2012/12/2/black-students-tallahassee-demand-justice-jordan-davis)

JN
Dec 3rd, 2012, 09:45 PM
I will never understand the inherent fear that people experience with young Black youths, who are not harassing anyone, to the point of lethality.
It's as if these offenders need to feel superior and see a right to let off steam in killing someone.
These were kids out enjoying one another's company.
Not threatening anyone.
And then to outright lie about these kids carrying a shotgun to feign justification?!

There are modified high-rise trucks with White teens in them blasting Rock-n-Roll music and no one bats an eye. So why the extreme hatred and fear of Black youths playing loud music? It's crazy!!
A family just lost a son, brother, loved one, over music?!
Such a sad culture we have here in the US. :sad:

You said it, chief. http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/8284/smh2.gif

darrinbaker00
Dec 4th, 2012, 03:13 AM
Post-racial America, my gluteus maximus. Write down the license plate number and call the police.

jrollaneres25
Dec 4th, 2012, 03:21 AM
Florida teen killed in dispute over loud music

Posted: 11:04 a.m. Tuesday, Nov. 27, 2012 | Updated: 5:05 p.m. Tuesday, Nov. 27, 2012

View Larger (http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/img/photos/2012/11/27/80/3c/davis.jpg)
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Jordan Davis was shot at a gas station in Jacksonville.

View Larger (http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/img/photos/2012/11/27/0c/82/Michael-Dunn.jpg)
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Michael Dunn is accused of killing a 17-year-old in an argument over loud music.

A man is facing murder and attempted murder charges for allegedly shooting a 17-year-old student at a Jacksonville gas station in a dispute over loud music.

The suspect, Michael Dunn, told police he felt threatened during an argument Friday with Jordan Davis after Dunn complained the music the teen was playing in his car was too loud.

Jacksonville homicide Lt. Rob Schoonover said Dunn pulled out a weapon and started firing into the vehicle. Davis was shot a few times. Eight or nine bullet holes were also found in the car.

Davis was originally from Marietta and will be buried there, the Florida Times-Union reported.

“Our suspect produced a weapon and started firing into the vehicle. Our victim was shot a couple of times,” Schoonover said. “ … They were listening to the music. It was loud; they [other teens] admitted that. But I mean that is not a reason for someone to open fire on them.”

The Times-Union (http://www.ittybittyurl.com/her) reported that Dunn and his girlfriend allegedly drove to their hotel in Jacksonville, then returned home to Brevard County when they heard about the shooting on the news.

Dunn has pleaded not guilty. He was officially booked into the Duval County Jail on Tuesday afternoon and is expected to make a court appearance Wednesday morning.

Jordan was a student at Samuel W. Wolfson High School, a magnet school in Duval County.

Florida corporate records show Dunn is vice president of Dunn & Dunn Data Systems in Vero Beach, the Orlando Sentinel reported. He supervises software development, according to his LinkedIn profile.

Atlanta Journal Constitution (http://www.ajc.com/news/news/florida-teen-killed-in-dispute-over-loud-music/nTGZ8/)


RIP young brother. Thanks to confessed murderer George Zimmerman it's open season on Black male teens in Florida. Funny it's always the one with the gun who feels threatened.


Rest in Peace Young Black Man...:sad:

tennisbum79
Dec 4th, 2012, 03:24 AM
It is always Florida

SilverSlam
Dec 4th, 2012, 05:28 AM
Seriously? What the fuck? The worst kind of murder is one with no planning, hope he gets sent away for a LONG time.

JN
Dec 5th, 2012, 04:49 PM
Jordan Davis Shooting Death Reignites 'Stand Your Ground' Law Repeal Push

By Janell Ross (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/janell-ross) | Posted: 12/04/2012 9:39 pm EST Updated: 12/05/2012 11:06 am EST

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/890016/thumbs/r-JORDAN-DAVIS-SHOOTING-REIGNITES-PUSH-TO-REPEAL-LAW-large570.jpg?5

Two days after Jordan Davis’s parents buried the body of their 17-year-old son in the Georgia ground (http://newsone.com/2093126/jordan-davis-funeral/), a campaign to repeal "Stand Your Ground" laws in Florida and elsewhere appears to be gaining steam.

Davis was shot to death in Jacksonville, Fla., on Nov. 23 after Michael Dunn, 45, said he felt threatened by the two black teenagers and one young black man sitting with Davis in an SUV. Dunn told police he argued with the group over the volume of their music, saw a shotgun emerge from one of the SUV’s windows (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/01/us/shotgun-report-central-in-florida-shooting-case.html) then, fired his handgun eight or nine times before fleeing. Three of Dunn’s bullets struck and killed Davis, a lawyer for the boy’s family said Tuesday. Police said those in the SUV were unarmed.

Police charged Dunn, a software engineer, with murder and attempted murder one day after the shooting. He remains in jail. Dunn's lawyer has indicated he will build a defense around Florida’s Stand Your Ground law, which gives shooters the right to use deadly force when they feel threatened and does not require them to retreat. Florida’s law sparked a state inquiry, a federal Civil Rights Commission investigation, public protests (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/21/trayvon-martin-million-hoodie-march_n_1371403.html) and intense political wrangling in other states after the February killing of unarmed Trayvon Martin, also 17 and black, by a neighborhood watchman.

The killing of Davis has prompted gun control advocates and civil rights groups to renew arguments that Stand Your Ground laws make ordinary citizens feel empowered to shoot first and ask questions later, boosting murder rates and justifiable homicide claims, muddling prosecutions and putting young black men -- people too often presumed to be a threat -- in particular peril. Civil rights groups, including Color of Change, the NAACP and the Urban League, as well gun control groups such as the Second Chance on Shoot First campaign, have joined forces to gather online signatures for a repeal of Stand Your Ground laws in 26 states. The groups also plan to restart a campaign to lobby state legislatures in January, said Ginny Simmons, director of Second Chance.

Stand Your Ground policies have the odd effect of giving average citizens more legal leeway (http://secondchancecampaign.org/news/mounting-evidence-shows-dangerous-impact-of-shoot-first-laws/) to shoot at others than either the nation’s police or armed forces have, said Simmons.

“What we are doing with these laws is allowing our country to become more dangerous than a war zone,” Simmons said.

Rashad Robinson is the executive director of Color of Change, a nonprofit organization that worked last year to expose the National Rifle Association’s role in getting Stand Your Ground policies approved, and the NRA’s relationship with the American Legislative Council, or ALEC. ALEC is a conservative political organization that suggests template legislation, including Stand Your Ground proposals, to right-leaning lawmakers.

“Unfortunately, we have had another one of these tragic incidents that highlights how horrible these laws are and how dangerous they can be in that they empower vigilantes and provide them cover," Robinson said. "We also live in a cultural environment in which young black men are feared and seen as a sort of universal threat. Their mere existence, is for some people a problem. That’s the cultural climate in which these laws have been implemented.”

If those ideas are the cultural equivalent of widely distributed gunpowder, Stand Your Ground laws lit the fuse, Robinson said.

The NRA did not respond to a request for comment Tuesday. The gun rights and education group has claimed that the laws both deter crime and provide legal protection for shooters who feel that they are in danger.

The problem with Stand Your Ground laws is not just how they are understood by legislators or gun owners, Robinson said. They have also produced another kind of unequal justice (http://blog.metrotrends.org/2012/08/stand-ground-laws-worsen-racial-disparities/), he said.

In states with Stand Your Ground laws, 34 percent of white shooters did not face charges or have not been convicted after shooting a black person, an Urban Institute analysis found. Just 3 percent of black shooters got the same treatment after shooting a white person and making a Stand Your Ground claim, according to the Urban Institute report. And in Florida, the national pioneer, justifiable homicides grew by nearly 195 percent since the law took effect in 2005, FBI data shows.

Davis’ parents, through their lawyer, haven't claimed their son's skin color had to do with his death. But they said they stand ready to do whatever necessary to roll back Stand Your Ground laws in Florida and other states because of the public danger that they create, an attorney for the family said.

“I hate to quote George Bush here, but they want this to be a uniter, not a divider,” said John M. Philips, a white Jacksonville-area lawyer who typically handles personal injury and wrongful death cases but has stepped in to represent Davis’ parents and act as a spokesman while they grieve. “They want America to understand that this could have been anyone’s son.”

President Barack Obama was criticized in March after he said publicly that if he had a son, he would look like Trayvon Martin (http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/23/obama-makes-first-comments-on-trayvon-martin-shooting/) -- young, black and possibly even wearing a hoodie. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/trayvon-martin-million-hoodie-march-a-short-history-of-the-hoodie/2012/03/22/gIQAeGCnTS_blog.html) Obama made the comments while expressing sympathy for Martin’s parents and concern about the loss that too many black parents must fear.

A 2012 Texas A &M University study (http://econweb.tamu.edu/mhoekstra/castle_doctrine.pdf) distributed by the National Bureau of Economic Research, found that Stand Your Ground laws in Florida and 19 other states failed to deter violent crime. The study found a clear increase in homicides in those states -- with up to 700 additional killings nationwide each year. It is unclear how many of those slain were people of color.

“I think it’s hard to wrap you head around what this law means until you are talking about real names and real people,” said Simmons with Second Chance. “After Trayvon Martin and after Jordan Davis, people actually know those stories and know that in the nation’s leading Stand Your Ground state, a teenager listening to music in a car died. Unfortunately, that’s very powerful. After Trayvon, there is no question that there was a momentum shift."

From 2005, when Florida passed the nation's first Stand Your Ground law, to 2011, 25 states have adopted some version of the NRA-backed law, Simmons said. This year has marked the first year since 2005 when no new laws were passed. One state, Indiana, expanded its existing Stand Your Ground law and Louisiana clarified its policy requiring police and prosecutors to fully investigate cases where defendants claim self-defense.

Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/04/jordan-davis-shooting-death-repeal_n_2240764.html)

Stamp Paid
Dec 5th, 2012, 08:02 PM
Racism is a psychological disorder, I think it really needs to be studied and classified psychologically as such. A worldview that allows you to fire 8 times into a car with four teenagers, feel no remorse, and go back to your middle class existence like nothing happen before being apprehended. Racism makes people lose their humanity.

RVD
Dec 5th, 2012, 08:22 PM
Racism is a psychological disorder, I think it really needs to be studied and classified psychologically as such. A worldview that allows you to fire 8 times into a car with four teenagers, feel no remorse, and go back to your middle class existence like nothing happen before being apprehended. Racism makes people lose their humanity.It's possible that they take the same line of approach from cops around the country.

And I agree that such a remorseless act extends beyond the scope of solely racism, and certainly borders on a psychological pathology.
Again, I believe that many cops suffer from a very similar pathology, as many are ex-military, or are driven by extreme or excessive ego, or illogical sense of justice.
Not all of course, but far more than I believed.
It would be interesting to discuss these possibilities with their department psychiatrists. But I seriously doubt that would ever happen.

miffedmax
Dec 5th, 2012, 09:34 PM
There are a lot of factors at play. There have also been some studies that suggest segregation (which is a legacy of racism, of course) make it harder for some people to "read" people from a different ethnic group. (Speaking as a large white guy, I sometimes have to say I get looks of major fear for no reason I can discern when I encounter Hispanics and black in my neighborhood). And I know that happens to nonwhite friends of mine all the time, especially the larger male ones.

Now, most of us would assume that a carload of kids listening to music is probably not a threat. (An annoyance, maybe, but isn't that why every teenage boy in the history of EVER jacks up the stereo in his car and plays it too loud?) But if you are scared of a group of black kids, why do you go and hassle them? Unless you have a gun and are looking for trouble? And you're too ignorant to be able to tell the difference between a bunch of normal boys cuttin' up and boys are inclined to do, or kids who are genuinely hard cases?

Just shut up, pump your gas and leave.

RVD
Dec 5th, 2012, 10:15 PM
Can someone from Florida please tell me how the "Stand Your Ground" law came about?
And I mean the honest to goodness unbiased 'truth'. Not the publicized or legally documented account.

So far, I'm finding the following justifications no matter where I search:Reports on the case have cited a recent change in Florida law, enacting the principle called “stand your ground.” This is a radical modern distortion of an old common-law doctrine. The old “castle doctrine” held that someone attacked in his or her own home had no “duty to retreat” before using deadly force to repel an attack. The idea behind it was that a person confronted at home literally has no place to go and need not try to run away if facing an immediate threat of violence.

In recent years, gun groups have successfully convinced state legislatures to expand the doctrine outside the home. Florida’s statute (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/0776.html) now says that a “person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.” A person who uses deadly force “is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force.” “Stand your ground laws” have spread across states in the West and South.

Florida’s district attorneys are not thrilled by the law. One told The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/21/us/justice-department-opens-inquiry-in-killing-of-trayvon-martin.html?_r=1&ref=us) that “the consequences of the law have been devastating around the state. It’s almost insane what we are having to deal with.”
http://prospect.org/article/history-floridas-stand-your-ground-lawThis law sounds like a means to circumventing criminal intent. Or stated another way...
A quick and dirty method of killing with discrimination and avoiding criminal prosecution.

The reasons can be highly subjective which would allow the guilty to evade prosecution.


Also, I'm curious whether this law ('the right to carry and use') applies to all Floridians, or are there requirements that have to be met? (i.e. background checks, past criminal records, psyche testing, etc...)

I ask because it seems as though no background sanity checks are performed, and the people doing the shooting appear on the surface to lack rational judgement.

Also, have there been deaths reported where the victim wasn't Black?

Helen Lawson
Dec 6th, 2012, 12:52 AM
I'm from Florida. There were some trials that were well publicized where the people killed someone else in self-defense outside the home, but the prosecutor charged them anyway, claiming that they had the duty and the ability to retreat, which was then the law. The cases were very sympathetic to the defendant in that it was upstanding types and the dead person was a career criminal in the middle of some crime, etc. They were extreme cases, nothing like the two pending now. These people were having to stand trial and explain how they didn't think they could retreat or it happened so fast, they didn't have time to figure out a retreat. Then the prosecutors were arguing that they could have retreated, second guessing the defendant's mental state in a moment of emergency. I think all of these people were acquitted, but a murder trial is horrible and people felt sorry for them. There was a public thought that if the duty to retreat didn't exist, people like this wouldn't have to stand trial and if they had to prove self-defense anyway, who cares about the duty to retreat. So, everyone was all in favor of it, that if someone attacks you in public, you don't to second guess defending yourself.

A white chick plugged her ex or estranged husband about a year ago and tried to use stand your ground in Seminole County in front of the old Trayvon Martin judge, but it was denied, she's going to trial and have to prove inability to retreat to a jury.

RVD
Dec 6th, 2012, 02:28 AM
Can someone from Florida please tell me how the "Stand Your Ground" law came about?
And I mean the honest to goodness unbiased 'truth'. Not the publicized or legally documented account.Anyone else besides Helen Lawson that is.

I'm sorry but I just can't accept a single word that comes out of that poster's mouth. :facepalm:

Helen Lawson, you're too Bi-polar and lacking in integrity to be believed.
Sorry.

Start da Game
Dec 6th, 2012, 04:54 AM
quite clearly racism involved......

BuTtErFrEnA
Dec 6th, 2012, 01:55 PM
I'm from Florida. There were some trials that were well publicized where the people killed someone else in self-defense outside the home, but the prosecutor charged them anyway, claiming that they had the duty and the ability to retreat, which was then the law. The cases were very sympathetic to the defendant in that it was upstanding types and the dead person was a career criminal in the middle of some crime, etc. They were extreme cases, nothing like the two pending now. These people were having to stand trial and explain how they didn't think they could retreat or it happened so fast, they didn't have time to figure out a retreat. Then the prosecutors were arguing that they could have retreated, second guessing the defendant's mental state in a moment of emergency. I think all of these people were acquitted, but a murder trial is horrible and people felt sorry for them. There was a public thought that if the duty to retreat didn't exist, people like this wouldn't have to stand trial and if they had to prove self-defense anyway, who cares about the duty to retreat. So, everyone was all in favor of it, that if someone attacks you in public, you don't to second guess defending yourself.

A white chick plugged her ex or estranged husband about a year ago and tried to use stand your ground in Seminole County in front of the old Trayvon Martin judge, but it was denied, she's going to trial and have to prove inability to retreat to a jury.



interesting...


white on white crime doesn't usually assist in the comparison but do you remember the circumstances of that case? is it the same sort of circumstances where the marissa alexander got 20 years for firing a warning shot and was denied SYG even though her husband had a history of domestic violence...it seems a bit strange that she wasn't afforded the immunity of SYG because:

"there is insufficient evidence that the Defendant reasonably believed deadly force was needed to prevent death or great bodily harm to herself," and that the fact that she came back into the home, instead of leaving out the front or back door "is inconsistent with a person who is in genuine fear for her life."

in contrast with george zimmerman or this current case where both were outdoors and could easily have fled the scene if they felt threatened but instead chose to go up to the people they felt threatened by and "claim the kids had guns" and start shooting...even with evidence showing there were no weapons, both are still clinging to that defence...

it does seem a bit strange that people walk around pulling guns on black kids and can say they felt threatened IN OPEN AREAS, yet when black kids (and black people in general) shoot someone (or in marissa's case - fire a warning shot that harms no one) they aren't usually afforded the same innocent til proven guilty...

but i am only looking from the outside of the US and going by media and internet reports :)

Helen Lawson
Dec 6th, 2012, 09:01 PM
If you search stand your ground and the name of the first Trayvon Martin judge and woman or husband, you might find the articles, the Orlando Sentinel was running a lot about the story because it was the same judge and they wanted to see how he treated the issue with her. Stand Your Ground is not real popular when the defendant knew the victim, there's sort of a presumption in everyone's mind that the killer set it up, too bad the battered woman got thrown out with the bathwater on that one it seems. It was meant to protect someone from having to explain and stand trial over a decision they made under stress in a few seconds on fight or flight, it was, in my opinion, not meant to apply to Zimmerman, and certainly not to the gas station killer.

People do run around killing each other in Florida, it's easier to (legally) get a gun permit than to get a driver license.

fantic
Dec 7th, 2012, 01:48 AM
Maybe we need a separate gun control thread. God bless America!

BuTtErFrEnA
Dec 7th, 2012, 04:00 PM
If you search stand your ground and the name of the first Trayvon Martin judge and woman or husband, you might find the articles, the Orlando Sentinel was running a lot about the story because it was the same judge and they wanted to see how he treated the issue with her. Stand Your Ground is not real popular when the defendant knew the victim, there's sort of a presumption in everyone's mind that the killer set it up, too bad the battered woman got thrown out with the bathwater on that one it seems. It was meant to protect someone from having to explain and stand trial over a decision they made under stress in a few seconds on fight or flight, it was, in my opinion, not meant to apply to Zimmerman, and certainly not to the gas station killer.

People do run around killing each other in Florida, it's easier to (legally) get a gun permit than to get a driver license.


ah ok :)

that's a bit messed up though :facepalm: shouldn't it be based on the circumstances of each individual case? i think that's what is complicating these matters and making them more race biased than it needs to be...in studying criminal law i agree with the "intent" behind the law as we can agree that there are some cases where a person can be convicted of a murder/manslaughter where their lives were in danger and they just acted, and, black or white, you don't want people under threat to feel the have no choice but to run and have to be wary of using deadly force in a situation where they clearly aren't thinking through things.

but it's now become hunting season where people who have an inherent fear of blacks, are hiding behind this to kill those they always wanted to get rid of...it remains to be seen therefore how these 2 cases in particular go, as they could set a very hard precedent to get rid of

RVD
Dec 7th, 2012, 10:23 PM
ah ok :)

that's a bit messed up though :facepalm: shouldn't it be based on the circumstances of each individual case? i think that's what is complicating these matters and making them more race biased than it needs to be...in studying criminal law i agree with the "intent" behind the law as we can agree that there are some cases where a person can be convicted of a murder/manslaughter where their lives were in danger and they just acted, and, black or white, you don't want people under threat to feel the have no choice but to run and have to be wary of using deadly force in a situation where they clearly aren't thinking through things.

but it's now become hunting season where people who have an inherent fear of blacks, are hiding behind this to kill those they always wanted to get rid of...it remains to be seen therefore how these 2 cases in particular go, as they could set a very hard precedent to get rid ofThis is precisely my point and what seems to be happening now.
And happening with legal authorities support.

There is a serious lack of concern for Black-Americans where the law is applied.
And this is a historical fact. Most White-Americans really don't care for the well-being of Black-Americans because, it's culturally ingrained, or institutionally ingrained.
Of course there are a sprinkling who do care, but are drowned out by those in power and who make these legal decisions.

Ultimately, White-Americans will have to become the primary victims before ANYTHING is done to curb this law. So I'm not holding my breath.
Personally, I believe that Black-Americans should also apply for gun ownership and begin the process of protecting themselves now.
Let's just see how well that goes over with Floridians and the legal authorities, shall we?

Seriously, this was a predicted outcome regardless of how one hoped it would initially turn out.

Helen Lawson
Dec 7th, 2012, 11:01 PM
This is precisely my point and what seems to be happening now.
And happening with legal authorities support.

There is a serious lack of concern for Black-Americans where the law is applied.
And this is a historical fact. Most White-Americans really don't care for the well-being of Black-Americans because, it's culturally ingrained, or institutionally ingrained.
Of course there are a sprinkling who do care, but are drowned out by those in power and who make these legal decisions.

Ultimately, White-Americans will have to become the primary victims before ANYTHING is done to curb this law. So I'm not holding my breath.
Personally, I believe that Black-Americans should also apply for gun ownership and begin the process of protecting themselves now.
Let's just see how well that goes over with Floridians and the legal authorities, shall we?

Seriously, this was a predicted outcome regardless of how one hoped it would initially turn out.

You're basing this on:
A black woman cannot use it against her ex
A white woman cannot use it against her ex
It's been raised as a defense in the killings of two black youths with no decision yet.
??

Sweety Darling
Dec 7th, 2012, 11:27 PM
RIP young brother. Thanks to confessed murderer George Zimmerman it's open season on Black male teens in Florida. Funny it's always the one with the gun who feels threatened.

Why are you making this a racist incident? I didn't read anywhere in the article it was a hate crime. So what you said is slanderous - hope he sues your ass :wavey:

Sweety Darling
Dec 7th, 2012, 11:30 PM
If the guy he shot was white, Asian or hispanic this would not even have made the news and no one here would have posted an article if it had :rolleyes:

JN
Dec 7th, 2012, 11:33 PM
Why are you making this a racist incident? I didn't read anywhere in the article it was a hate crime. So what you said is slanderous - hope he sues your ass :wavey:

He'll have to wait in line, cuz Williamsser already has RACIST, confessed child murderer George Zimmerman's lawyers on my case. :rolleyes:

Helen Lawson
Dec 7th, 2012, 11:40 PM
Why are you making this a racist incident? I didn't read anywhere in the article it was a hate crime. So what you said is slanderous - hope he sues your ass :wavey:

No one in their right mind would believe what JN says, a complete defense to a slander claim! :D

Sweety Darling
Dec 7th, 2012, 11:43 PM
He'll have to wait in line, cuz Williamsser already has RACIST, confessed child murderer George Zimmerman's lawyers on my case. :rolleyes:

Stop being a slanderous prick, then.

JN
Dec 8th, 2012, 12:19 AM
Stop being a slanderous prick, then.

Don't get me wrong, that wasn't a complaint.
"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."
And JN will call it a duck. :wavey:

BuTtErFrEnA
Dec 8th, 2012, 12:53 AM
This is precisely my point and what seems to be happening now.
And happening with legal authorities support.

There is a serious lack of concern for Black-Americans where the law is applied.
And this is a historical fact. Most White-Americans really don't care for the well-being of Black-Americans because, it's culturally ingrained, or institutionally ingrained.
Of course there are a sprinkling who do care, but are drowned out by those in power and who make these legal decisions.

Ultimately, White-Americans will have to become the primary victims before ANYTHING is done to curb this law. So I'm not holding my breath.
Personally, I believe that Black-Americans should also apply for gun ownership and begin the process of protecting themselves now.
Let's just see how well that goes over with Floridians and the legal authorities, shall we?

Seriously, this was a predicted outcome regardless of how one hoped it would initially turn out.

You're basing this on:
A black woman cannot use it against her ex
A white woman cannot use it against her ex
It's been raised as a defense in the killings of two black youths with no decision yet.
??


the bolded reminds me a bit of what i read and watched on documentary about the blood/crip war, where it wasn't treated as a big deal (the blacks were killing the blacks), until a white woman got injured...I'd hope it doesn't

SN: are there any free databases where you have access to US Case law?? I'm interested in looking up the cases where this law was used and the outcomes, but of course the only databases i have paid access to are UK and C'bean :)

RVD
Dec 8th, 2012, 02:07 AM
You're basing this on:
A black woman cannot use it against her ex
A white woman cannot use it against her ex
It's been raised as a defense in the killings of two black youths with no decision yet.
??I have no idea what you're referring to.

My post was as clear as I could possibly make it.

RVD
Dec 8th, 2012, 02:15 AM
If the guy he shot was white, Asian or hispanic this would not even have made the news and no one here would have posted an article if it had :rolleyes:This post serves as an example of how people view these incidents. Especially when they have absolutely no understanding of race relations, the inequality of the law in America, and cultural history over the centuries in the U.S.

I'll just leave it at that because experience dictates that no amount of conversation, debate, nor examples, will ever alter the perception and understanding of people who what you believe.

It's sad but true.

*JR*
Dec 8th, 2012, 02:30 AM
SN: are there any free databases where you have access to US Case law?? I'm interested in looking up the cases where this law was used and the outcomes, but of course the only databases i have paid access to are UK and C'bean :)

http://answers.justia.com
http://public.findlaw.com
http://www.law.cornell.edu/lii/get_the_law

I hope the above are helpful in general.
(Westlaw.com is the most authoritative, but is a paid service)

Regarding this case, Dunn having fled and not then gone to the police seems rather incriminating. Of course Zimmerman didn't have that option, having called the Sanford PD to "report" Trayvon Martin just B4 that shooting.

Sweety Darling
Dec 8th, 2012, 10:00 AM
This post serves as an example of how people view these incidents. Especially when they have absolutely no understanding of race relations, the inequality of the law in America, and cultural history over the centuries in the U.S.

I'll just leave it at that because experience dictates that no amount of conversation, debate, nor examples, will ever alter the perception and understanding of people who what you believe.

It's sad but true.

Get off your high horse.

BuTtErFrEnA
Dec 8th, 2012, 11:08 AM
http://answers.justia.com
http://public.findlaw.com
http://www.law.cornell.edu/lii/get_the_law

I hope the above are helpful in general.
(Westlaw.com is the most authoritative, but is a paid service)

Regarding this case, Dunn having fled and not then gone to the police seems rather incriminating. Of course Zimmerman didn't have that option, having called the Sanford PD to "report" Trayvon Martin just B4 that shooting.

oops my westlaw is uk :facepalm: but i'll bk mark these sites thanks :)

RVD
Dec 8th, 2012, 06:00 PM
Get off your high horse.When you're ignorant, everything appears that way no matter where you stand. :shrug:

Kindly do yourself a favor and educate yourself.
That is, if you actually care about this issue.

fantic
Dec 8th, 2012, 06:05 PM
I wonder what the advocates of MORE gun carrying think about this incident.

Just imagine, if they ALL had guns :oh:

Really, they need to make a TV drama on this subject, say like 'Westworld' by Crichton, realized in real-life? :lol:

I see that some here are even proposing that; Blacks to have more access to guns. Peculiar notion of 'equality' :lol:

Sweety Darling
Dec 8th, 2012, 06:16 PM
When you're ignorant, everything appears that way no matter where you stand. :shrug:



You're right. I feel sorry for you.

RVD
Dec 8th, 2012, 07:05 PM
You're right. I feel sorry for you.I'm sorry, but I don't speak 'Idiot'. I'll have to consult a translator and get back to you.

Or not.

You just hit a 3-post limit that I allot to losers like yourself.
So tata. :wavey:

Start da Game
Dec 8th, 2012, 07:29 PM
that gun law must be given a rethought and revoked immediately......that is currently the stupidest law in the world......burning fire crackers is considered a bigger offense than carrying guns......somebody explain me how it even makes sense......

fantic
Dec 8th, 2012, 07:40 PM
that gun law must be given a rethought and revoked immediately......that is currently the stupidest law in the world......burning fire crackers is considered a bigger offense than carrying guns......somebody explain me how it even makes sense......

really? :eek: Well, they say it's the quintessential expression of freedom, the 'right to arm' :lol: They forget that that concept was espoused during the 1960-80s by the NRA :help:

Helen Lawson
Dec 8th, 2012, 07:46 PM
Second Amendment is plain on its face.

Tampa Tribune has an article on-line about Stand Your Ground, and it's shocking, people have used it successfully to run after someone and shoot them in the back, multiple shootings in the back, gang violence, gang people walk, two guys fall in the water fighting, the one climbs out, the other shoots him in the back. Maybe these two guys will use it successfully.

Sweety Darling
Dec 8th, 2012, 07:49 PM
I'm sorry, but I don't speak 'Idiot'. I'll have to consult a translator and get back to you.

Or not.

You just hit a 3-post limit that I allot to losers like yourself.
So tata. :wavey:

"When you point a finger at someone, there are three fingers pointing back to you." Learn from this and grow up.

JN
Dec 8th, 2012, 08:12 PM
"When you point a finger at someone, there are three fingers pointing back to you." Learn from this and grow up.

Would you please shut your tired, nothing to offer ass the hell up? There's no worse a troll than the kind who thinks he's witty and clever and isn't. http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/30.gif

RVD
Dec 8th, 2012, 08:18 PM
Would you please shut your tired, nothing to offer ass the hell up? There's no worse a troll than the kind who thinks he's witty and clever and isn't. http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/30.gifYou can tell that that poster is VERY young, and has a limited understanding of the real world and the stark reality of the issue.
I'm sure that he/she will learn one way or another though.

Sweety Darling
Dec 8th, 2012, 08:19 PM
Would you please shut your tired, nothing to offer ass the hell up? There's no worse a troll than the kind who thinks he's witty and clever and isn't. http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/30.gif

You can tell that that poster is VERY young, and has a limited understanding of the real world and the stark reality of the issue.
I'm sure that he/she will learn one way or another though.

You're both as childish as each other :lol:

Helen Lawson
Dec 8th, 2012, 08:30 PM
You're both as childish as each other :lol:

They've both excellent projectors.

Start da Game
Dec 9th, 2012, 06:48 AM
really? :eek: Well, they say it's the quintessential expression of freedom, the 'right to arm' :lol: They forget that that concept was espoused during the 1960-80s by the NRA :help:

what kind of freedom is that? the gun is a dangerous possession which can even drive a sage towards madness in a minute of rage......

NRA of USA adopting that concept reminds me of the idiotic helmet rule in india.....when indian congress took to power in 2004 after almost 6 years, they wanted some money straightaway......so they brought in the mandatory helmet rule and forced citizens to buy helmets and filled their pockets under the name of "right to protection for two-wheeler users"......

BuTtErFrEnA
Dec 9th, 2012, 02:20 PM
Second Amendment is plain on its face.

Tampa Tribune has an article on-line about Stand Your Ground, and it's shocking, people have used it successfully to run after someone and shoot them in the back, multiple shootings in the back, gang violence, gang people walk, two guys fall in the water fighting, the one climbs out, the other shoots him in the back. Maybe these two guys will use it successfully.

link? trying to find it but no success

Helen Lawson
Dec 9th, 2012, 04:20 PM
I don't know how to post links from a Mac, try googling "Tampa stand your ground" or something, I found it that way.

BuTtErFrEnA
Dec 9th, 2012, 06:03 PM
oh thanks found it :)

JN
Dec 10th, 2012, 09:33 PM
Posted: 2:23 p.m. Friday, Dec. 7, 2012

Father of teen killed over loud music will fight 'stand your ground' defense

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. — The father of a Jacksonville teenager who was killed for listening to loud music in a car said he'll fight the suspect's stand your ground defense if it's used.

Ron Davis' son, Jordan, died over the Thanksgiving holiday after investigators said Michael Dunn of Brevard County shot him at a gas station because Jordan Davis wouldn't turn down the music in his car.

Dunn said he felt threatened and pleaded not guilty to murder and attempted murder charges last week.

The case has drawn comparisons to the Trayvon martin case, but the differences are significant.

Unlike the Martin case, several people witnessed this shooting, and there was no scuffle before 17-year-old Jordan Davis was shot to death. And notably, Dunn was arrested a day later.

Dunn is charged with murder and attempted murder in the shooting.

The 45-year-old Dunn parked beside the sport utility vehicle occupied by Jordan Davis and three other young men and told them to turn the music down, police said.

Dunn exchanged words with Davis, who was in the back seat, and started firing.

Dunn later told police he felt threatened. His attorney has said Dunn saw a gun and shot in self-defense, perhaps laying the ground work for a case under Florida's stand your ground law.

Since the shooting, Davis' family has received an outpouring of support from the community. A "Justice for Jordan" Facebook page was set up and his classmates gathered at a memorial service with T-shirts showing Davis' smiling face.

Fire trucks saluted him by spraying water over an airplane carrying his body to Atlanta while it was on the runway. The teen's mother lives near Marietta, and a funeral is scheduled for Davis Saturday at the Trinity Chapel Church of God in Powder Springs.

Davis' father said his son was a typical high school junior who was getting ready to start his first job at McDonald's, looking forward to buying his first car and turning 18 early next year. He had a "million-dollar smile" and liked music, listening to mostly rap but also the sounds of his dad's generation, including James Brown and The Temptations.

Standing over his son's casket, Ron Davis promised to fight laws that allow people to carry guns outside of their homes.

"Law enforcement should be the only people who should have guns on the street," he said. "That's what's killing our kids more than anything."

Police said they didn't find a weapon in the SUV with the young men, and Ron Davis said he doesn't believe Dunn's claim that he saw a gun. He thinks Dunn is searching for an explanation.

"They were just 17-year-old kids that were having a good time, coming from the mall," he said.

The shooting has revived the debate over Florida's "stand your ground" law, which allows people to use deadly force if they believe their life is in imminent danger. Dunn's attorney hasn't said whether she will argue the shooting was justified under the statute.

The law came under harsh criticism after Martin was shot in February by neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman, who believed the teenager was acting suspicious. Martin and Zimmerman got into a fight and Zimmerman said he thought Martin was reaching for his gun. Authorities didn't arrest Zimmerman for more than a month after the shooting, adding to the furor.

"This case is so far from Trayvon Martin's case," Ron Davis said.

University of Miami law professor Tamara Lave, who has closely followed the Martin case, agreed.

"I don't see how he is going to prevail under 'stand your ground,'" Lave, a former public defender in San Diego for 10 years, said of Dunn. "You're allowed to own a gun. Even if there was a gun in the car, that doesn't mean the gun was used to threaten him in any way."

The shooting unfolded about 7:40 p.m. when Dunn stopped at the gas station with his girlfriend after going to his son's wedding, police said. Dunn's girlfriend went into the store, and he told the young men to turn the music down.

"It was loud, they admitted that, but that's not a reason for someone to open fire on them and take action," Jacksonville Sheriff's Lt. Rob Schoonover said.

Dunn fired eight or nine shots into the car and Davis was hit a couple of times, police said. Dunn's girlfriend ran outside.

"When she came out, she said, 'What's going on?' and supposedly his statement was, 'I just fired at these kids,'" Schoonover said. "At that time I don't know if he knew that he struck anyone in the vehicle."

Dunn and his girlfriend drove off and spent the night at a hotel. Dunn was arrested a day later at his home in Satellite Beach, about 160 miles away, when police tracked his license plate.

He told detectives he had been in the process of turning himself in to a neighbor, who was in law enforcement.

"His side of the story is he felt threatened and that is the reason he took action," Schoonover said.

Dunn was described by police as a gun collector who shot at local ranges. His attorney, Robin Lemonidis, told The Florida Times-Union her client "absolutely" saw someone with a shotgun in the SUV. She only said "we'll see" if Florida's "stand your ground" law would be part of her defense.

Police didn't know if Dunn had a concealed weapons permit, but said he had the gun for a "long period of time."

Lemonidis told the newspaper Dunn was "devastated that anyone was harmed in this instance."

Police said they were looking into whether alcohol was a factor, but didn't know. Lemonidis said it was not. An assistant for her said she did not want talk more about the case more until the trial.

WFTV (http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/father-teen-killed-over-loud-music-will-fight-stan/nTQDM/)


Related: People turning up their radios to remember Jordon Davis (http://www.wtxl.com/news/local/people-turning-up-their-radios-to-remember-jordon-davis/article_0c079332-40c6-11e2-a955-001a4bcf6878.html)

miffedmax
Dec 10th, 2012, 09:46 PM
I still don't know why you want to start something with a carload of teenage boys who are being typical teenage boys. I know damn well at least one of my sons has cruised around with the stereo turned up loud enough to sterilize lab rats at 50 paces because I've heard them drive off.

RVD
Dec 10th, 2012, 11:18 PM
I still don't know why you want to start something with a carload of teenage boys who are being typical teenage boys. I know damn well at least one of my sons has cruised around with the stereo turned up loud enough to sterilize lab rats at 50 paces because I've heard them drive off.We may find something along the lines of Mr. Michael Dunn simply having a bad day and needing an let off some steam, or possibly a mental illness of some sort.
What we know for sure at this point, is that Mr. Dunn didn't see fit to remain on the scene and await authorities, nor did he or his companion call 911. Moreover, he sought lodging 150 miles away.
It certainly doesn't look good for him no matter of one's perspective.
I think as public outcry increases, the Florida legislature will be pressured to do something about their mistake in passing the "Stand Your Ground" law. Maybe a repeal is in order.
And hopefully other states with similar laws will act in a proactive way before more lives are senselessly lost.
Honestly, the law makes no sense to begin with, as many gun owners who carry do so out of pure fear.
There is often no background check done, nor psychiatric evaluation(s) performed. And let's be frank here...
It essentially takes considerable thought to go from reaching for a gun, aiming it at someone, and pulling the trigger 8 or 9 times. There is significant intent to do lethal harm.

I guess we shall see what transpires from this point on.
Will the Florida legislature act in a timely manner, or act at all?
Will legal authorities and the court system give this case the proper attention?
Will more senseless deaths occur before anything is done?
These are all questions that I have at the moment, and I am not holding my breath that any of these will be addressed any time soon.

Salve
Dec 11th, 2012, 12:45 AM
Oh the yts....

JN
Dec 14th, 2012, 10:29 AM
Beyond Trayvon: Black and Unarmed

These 17 sad stories prove that it's nothing new for a black man without a weapon to be killed.

Captions by: Jenée Desmond-Harris (http://www.theroot.com/users/jeneedesmondharris)

http://s3.amazonaws.com/root-slideshow-prod/images%2Fslides%2FErvin-Jefferson-032712-400mr.jpg

Ervin Jefferson

There are still unanswered questions about this case, unfolding a month after Trayvon Martin's shooting. But police have confirmed (http://www.11alive.com/news/article/235081/3/DEKALB--Security-guards-shot-killed-teen-Saturday-night) that the 18-year-old Jefferson was shot and killed by two security guards -- also African American -- outside his Atlanta home on Saturday, March 24, 2012. His mother says he was unarmed and trying to protect his sister from a crowd that was threatening her.


Continued @ TheRoot (http://www.theroot.com/multimedia/beyond-trayvon-black-and-unarmed)

Helen Lawson
Dec 15th, 2012, 02:59 PM
You guys never keep up with these stories. The charges have been upgraded to first degree murder by a grand jury, but prosecutors are not seeking the death penalty.

Stamp Paid
Dec 16th, 2012, 04:38 AM
I still don't know why you want to start something with a carload of teenage boys who are being typical teenage boys. I know damn well at least one of my sons has cruised around with the stereo turned up loud enough to sterilize lab rats at 50 paces because I've heard them drive off.Because the man in a racist! :lol:

miffedmax
Dec 16th, 2012, 05:24 AM
Because the man in a racist! :lol:

I think that is part of the problem. But I think having a handgun had something to do with it, too. And possibly other factors. Most racist/bigoted idiots don't just shoot people, or actively seek out confrontation with them.

RVD
Dec 16th, 2012, 06:55 AM
I think that is part of the problem. But I think having a handgun had something to do with it, too. And possibly other factors. Most racist/bigoted idiots don't just shoot people, or actively seek out confrontation with them.Obama winning the election? :shrug: ;)

There are still a lot of pissed off people out there. :unsure:

JN
Dec 30th, 2012, 01:08 AM
Jordan Davis saga reaches cover of Jet magazine

http://www.actionnewsjax.com/media/lib/1/e/7/4/e740fe41-0028-4b22-bdfc-65731d758b3d/Story.jpg
Story of slain teen gets new national attention.

Published: 12/28 8:53 pm

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- The teen shot to death at a local gas station in a dispute over loud music is January's cover story for Jet Magazine.

The cover shows a picture of Jordan Russell Davis (1995-2012), with the question, "Is your child next?" The attorney for Davis' family posted the pictures on Facebook today.

Davis, a Wolfson High School student, was killed on the night of Black Friday last month. The 17 year old and three friends pulled into a Gate gas station on the corner of Baymeadows Road and Southside Boulevard.

Police say another motorist, Michael Dunn, told the teens to turn down their music. A confrontation followed. Dunn told police the teens flashed a shotgun at him. Dunn, according to his attorney, felt threatened and opened fire into the SUV where Davis and his friends sat. Police found no shotgun or drugs at the scene.

Dunn is now facing five criminal charges: one count of murder in the first-degree; three counts of attempted murder in the first-degree; and one count of shooting/throwing deadly missiles.

Action News Jax (http://www.actionnewsjax.com/content/topstories/story/Jordan-Davis-saga-reaches-cover-of-Jet-magazine/8ydNR7hVD0ufCF_MPk1nlw.cspx)

mykarma
Dec 31st, 2012, 12:23 AM
what kind of freedom is that? the gun is a dangerous possession which can even drive a sage towards madness in a minute of rage......

NRA of USA adopting that concept reminds me of the idiotic helmet rule in india.....when indian congress took to power in 2004 after almost 6 years, they wanted some money straightaway......so they brought in the mandatory helmet rule and forced citizens to buy helmets and filled their pockets under the name of "right to protection for two-wheeler users"......
Please tell me you're not speaking of something that's happening in a country other than India?

Stamp Paid
Dec 31st, 2012, 12:37 AM
http://25.media.tumblr.com/1466c9fd226287b2b7aadbc915c5d96a/tumblr_mfkdch273m1r2algho1_500.jpg
http://deejaybird.tumblr.com/post/38759513580/in-bogalusa-louisiana-1964-civil-rights-workers

In Bogalusa, Louisiana, 1964, civil-rights workers were surrounded by a horde of Ku Klux Klansmen. A Black man named Charles Sims saw that the chief of police was merely observing what could have been lots of bloodshed. Charles Sims walked over to the police chief and told him: “You better stop `em. Cause if you don’t, we’re gonna kill them all.” The top cop saw armed Black men staked out in protective formation around the building housing the civil-rights workers. There was no Klan violence that night. Sims later declared, “That night a brand-new Negro was born.”

Cross burning ended suddenly in Jonesboro, Louisiana, the night that a cross was set on fire in front of a clergyman’s house. The Deacons for Defense and Justice began busting shots at the KKK as the torch touched the cross. The Klan departed and never repeated that trick.

In early 1965 Black students picketing Jonesboro high school were confronted by hostile police and fire trucks with hoses prepared to hose the Black students until a car of 4 Deacons emerged and in view of the police, calmly loaded their shotguns. The police ordered the fire truck to withdraw.

During a 1965 summer demonstration, white hecklers turned violent and threw a brick which struck a Black woman, Hattie Mae Hill. The white mob surrounded the car the Deacons were using to aid the terrified woman. As the white mob closed in on Deacon Henry Austin, he fired point blank into the chest of Alton Crowe who was in the front of the mob. While Crowe survived, the fun of beating up on Blacks died that afternoon in Bogalusa.

No longer able to attack Black people without fear of retaliation from gun-wielding Deacons, the Klan began to lose its power-hold on the region. With the threat of violence greatly diminished, the Deacons for Defense and Justice’s visibility declined. After 1968, the Deacons were inactive. The wife of one of the last surviving Deacon leaders says “I became very proud of Black men. They didn’t bow down and scratch their heads. They stood up like men.”
----------------------------------------------
I think Blacks in this country need to start having a national conversation about arming themselves, and protecting their families. Just my opinion.
I plan to get my license to carry next month.

moby
Dec 31st, 2012, 12:53 AM
^Are you serious?

Stamp Paid
Dec 31st, 2012, 01:03 AM
^Are you serious?I live in Florida. Heck yeah I'm serious. :lol:

moby
Dec 31st, 2012, 01:12 AM
I live in Florida. Heck yeah I'm serious. :lol:
It would make sense if there's some organised group targeting black people, but what's happening is some random individuals acting independently and picking off one person at a time in a surprising and sudden manner. Being armed is essentially useless as a defensive maneuver in such situations, other than making the individuals who carry them susceptible to their own misuse instead.

If these teens had been armed, they would still have been shot dead, and on top of that would have lost some sort of moral high ground. /Slash 17 is too young to be packing anyway.

Stamp Paid
Dec 31st, 2012, 01:35 AM
It would make sense if there's some organised group targeting black people, but what's happening is some random individuals acting independently and picking off one person at a time in a surprising and sudden manner. Being armed is essentially useless as a defensive maneuver in such situations, other than making the individuals who carry them susceptible to their own misuse instead.

If these teens had been armed, they would still have been shot dead, and on top of that would have lost some sort of moral high ground.Well the boy who died here was only 17, so no, he should not have been armed. I wasn't speaking about him specifically, or even Trayvon.

I'm just speaking for myself. My views on guns are changing as I get older. I live in an area with lots of home invasions and robberies, firstly. And living in the South, a large portion of the population see young black men as existential threats to their way of life, and gunning one down is just positive social engineering. But these people are largely cowards, and always end up attacking those who they know are likely unarmed. You notice how you rarely ever see gunfights, its usualy one armed individual being aggressive in response to perceived danger from an unarmed individual? Gunfights are rare. I think being armed makes those types of people think twice, they're not as aggressive in areas where they know they are likely to find an armed black/brown person.

ToopsTame
Dec 31st, 2012, 01:50 AM
I've met Floridians who are progressive on a lot of issues but when it comes to gun control, have the same arms race mentality. One guy started carrying a gun on his bicycle after getting jumped a few times. Mutually Assured Destruction is a scary way to live.

*JR*
Dec 31st, 2012, 02:34 AM
http://deejaybird.tumblr.com/post/38759513580/in-bogalusa-louisiana-1964-civil-rights-workers....

I think Blacks in this country need to start having a national conversation about arming themselves, and protecting their families. Just my opinion.
I plan to get my license to carry next month.

Of course neither Trayvon Martin nor Jordan Davis would have had a concealed carry permit @ age 17, and wouldn't be walking around with a shotgun. While the former was alone walking back from a 7-11, the latter was in a car with other guys, and they might have legally had a gun in the car.

So lets reconstruct the incident, with Dunn going back to his car and getting his gun, then taking aim. Lets say a shot rings out from the car, Dunn goes down, and whoever shot him claimed Stand Your Ground. The problem they'd maybe run into is that (without independent witnesses) a prosecutor might have said that Dunn intended just to show his, to scare the kids into leaving him (and his gf) alone.

Short of creating a 1984 style society (http://thebilzerianreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/1984-poster.jpg) with surveillance cameras (with good audio) everywhere, it creates a "they said vs. they said" dynamic. And wild shootouts, with mere bystanders sometimes hit. If you remember the news vid Williamsser put in the gun control thread, some LA Koreatown merchants during the Rodney King riots were (according to the newscaster) "firing @ anything that moved", and some of them fired back. :shrug:

PmsKGhLdZuQ

JN
Jul 16th, 2013, 05:54 AM
Black, 17, and Shot Dead in Florida: Why Isn't Jordan Davis Getting the Attention Travyon Martin Is?

Zainab Akande (http://www.policymic.com/profiles/26774/zainab-akande) in Politics 2 days ago

http://media1.policymic.com/site/articles/54339/1_photo.jpg
Black, 17, and Shot Dead in Florida: Why Isn't Jordan Davis Getting the Attention Travyon Martin Is?

Agenda setting in the news has the power to leave news consumers in the dark about timely, relevant and important topics.

Take this developing story, for example.

In November, black youth Jordan Davis, a 17-year-old Jacksonville resident, was the only person murdered after Michael Dunn, 46, allegedly shot into the SUV Davis was inside several times after an argument about the volume of music playing.

According to Dunn's girlfriend, Rhonda Rouer, Dunn had three rum and cokes at a wedding reception. She felt secure enough for him to drive and thought that he was a good mood. On the drive back to the hotel they were residing at, they made a pit stop at the convenience store where the murder occurred. At the Gate Station, Rouer said (http://www.firstcoastnews.com/rss/article/309216/3/More-Michael-Dunn-discovery-released) Dunn told her that he hated "thug music." Rouer then went inside the store to make purchases and heard several gunshots while she was still within the building.

Upon returning and seeing Dunn put his gun back into the glove compartment, Rouer asked why he had shot at the car playing music and Dunn claimed that he feared for his life and that "they threatened to kill me." The couple drove back to their hotel, and claim they did not realize anyone had died until the story appeared on the news the next day.

On the other side of the case, the defense (baselessly, it seems) argues that the teens in the car may or may not (http://www.news4jax.com/news/witness-says-he-saw-teens-get-out-of-suv-after-shooting/-/475880/20790378/-/item/0/-/o5xcxq/-/index.html) have had a weapon stashed inside of the SUV.

Dunn is being charged with first-degree murder, as well as three counts of attempted murder. Rouer described Dunn as "easy-going" but passionate about politics and gun control.

The latest news on the case concerns (http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2013-07-02/story/2nd-judge-leaves-michael-dunnjordan-davis-case) the decision of Circuit Judge Mallory Cooper removing herself from presiding over the case. She is the second judge to leave, after the first judge, Suzanne Bass, was asked to step down in order to ensure a fair trial. Judge Russell Healey is now the third judge to be appointed to the case. The state will not be paying for Dunn's defense fees.

Without solid evidence from both sides and one surveillance video (http://www.news4jax.com/Surveillance-video-released-in-Gate-station-shooting/-/475982/19792204/-/h3qryyz/-/index.html) that only shows the story from the inside of the convenience store, this case has a long way to go.

It's more or less the same story all over again: a white man shooting a black teenager dead in Florida in a tragic dispute that perhaps could have been avoided. Yet, why is Jacksonville trial of Michael Dunn and Jordan Davis not receiving the same amount of media attention or criticism as the George Zimmerman vs. Trayvon Martin case?

Do the airwaves, newspapers and Twitter feeds have enough room for the prominence of one type of vaguely race-charged crime? Or crimes that could tie into the debate on gun control? (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dean-obeidallah/nra-trayvon-martin-media_b_1433038.html) Or goodness forbid, when both topics intersect (http://www.salon.com/2013/06/11/stand_your_ground_law_helps_white_defendants_a_lot _more_than_black_ones/).

Whatever the reason, there is no one to blame but the national media for more or less skipping this one over.

[policymic (http://www.policymic.com/articles/54339/black-17-and-shot-dead-in-florida-why-isn-t-jordan-davis-getting-the-attention-travyon-martin-is)]

tennisrules
Jul 16th, 2013, 07:21 AM
Rolling Stone has an excellent article on this case:

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/jordan-davis-stand-your-grounds-latest-victim-20130425

It is extremely long (4 pages) so I won't post the full article here.

mykarma
Jul 16th, 2013, 05:51 PM
Rolling Stone has an excellent article on this case:

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/jordan-davis-stand-your-grounds-latest-victim-20130425

It is extremely long (4 pages) so I won't post the full article here.
This is just plain exhausting.

RVD
Jul 16th, 2013, 09:17 PM
This is just plain exhausting.This is why I couldn't actively follow the Trayvon case.
I often do not read the legal analysts views at all because when considering the sources, they side with and are controlled by the majority view. It's only when a verdict has been reached that some media outlets come out in protest.
That's as, you said, quite exhausting. But more than that, leaves me with a sense of despair for the future of my kids.
I sit back and ask myself what's changed for us minorities in the sense of receiving actual justice.
And my answer is usually...
"A lot has changed---in favor of the majority legally killing minorities for any reason whatsoever."

miffedmax
Jul 16th, 2013, 10:38 PM
One big difference is the way the two cases were initially handled. In the Dunn case, the suspect was arrested fairly soon after the crime was committed. In the Martin case, the cops weren't even going to conduct an investigation until public pressure forced them to, and their gross negligence in so doing may have been a factor in Zimmerman's not guilty verdict.

Both cases are horrible and tragic, but this one seems to less badly handled by the police.

*JR*
Feb 4th, 2014, 12:21 AM
Florida Man Who Killed Teen Over Loud Music Dispute Due in Court

Michael Dunn will use Stand Your Ground defense, claiming he saw gun in teen's car
By Charlotte Alter @charlottealter Feb. 03, 201412

The trial for the Florida man accused of shooting and killing an unarmed black teen in an argument over loud music will start Monday, and his attorneys say he plans to use the controversial “Stand Your Ground” law as a defense.

The high-profile case is being compared to the trial of George Zimmerman for shooting Trayvon Martin, both because of the invocation of the “Stand Your Ground” defense, and because that trial’s state attorney, Angela Corey, will also prosecute this case, CNN reports.

In November 2012, Michael Dunn pulled into a convenience store parking lot next to a car full of teenagers playing music on the radio. When his girlfriend went into the store, Dunn says he asked the teens to turn the music down.

When they began to argue, Dunn says he saw a gun in the car, so he grabbed his handgun and fired eight or nine shots into the car, killing 17-year old Jordan Davis. No weapons were found in the teens’ car. Dunn has pleaded not guilty to first-degree murder charges along with three counts of attempted murder.

Dunn’s attorney said that her client was reacting to what he perceived as an immediate threat.

Read more: Michael Dunn To Use Stand Your Ground Defense Over Jordan Davis Death | TIME.com

http://nation.time.com/2014/02/03/stand-your-ground-michael-dunn-jordan-davis-killing-loud-music/#ixzz2sJ9ZkLP5

hablo
Feb 4th, 2014, 12:33 AM
He thought he saw a gun in the teen's car? He better not get away with murder... :rolleyes:

tennisbum79
Feb 4th, 2014, 01:25 AM
He thought he saw a gun in the teen's car? He better not get away with murder... :rolleyes:
They always see a gun.
In the past, they have mistaken a wallet for gun.

meyerpl
Feb 4th, 2014, 01:34 AM
Why the fuck do you even pick a fight over music at a gas station?
That sounds sensible but what if somebody is blasting ABBA or the Bee Gees? Or Donna Fucking Summer??!! You'd have to do something about it!! I wouldn't recommend anything smaller than .44 caliber with a 240 grain bullet to solve that problem.

meyerpl
Feb 4th, 2014, 01:50 AM
One big difference is the way the two cases were initially handled. In the Dunn case, the suspect was arrested fairly soon after the crime was committed. In the Martin case, the cops weren't even going to conduct an investigation until public pressure forced them to, and their gross negligence in so doing may have been a factor in Zimmerman's not guilty verdict.

Both cases are horrible and tragic, but this one seems to less badly handled by the police.Indeed. Those missing elements are significant. And to be clear, in neither case is the shooter's behavior excusable in my view. Nonetheless, the question of what is newsworthy runs deep. Is there an epidemic of white people shooting young black men? Or are those crimes that receive media attention. Or is it something else that gets attention?
There were 499 homicides in 2012 in Chicago alone, and many of the victims were young black males. Would anybody seriously speculate that in most cases the shooters were white males? Probably not. What really does deserve scrutiny is the justice gap between black and white in the U.S. That I'm afraid is very, very real and it doesn't get nearly the attention it deserves. I think that was the element in the Martin/Zimmerman case that may not be present here. And it's finally getting more notice.

RVD
Feb 4th, 2014, 02:46 AM
Indeed. Those missing elements are significant. And to be clear, in neither case is the shooter's behavior excusable in my view. Nonetheless, the question of what is newsworthy runs deep. Is there an epidemic of white people shooting young black men? Or are those crimes that receive media attention. Or is it something else that gets attention?
There were 499 homicides in 2012 in Chicago alone, and many of the victims were young black males. Would anybody seriously speculate that in most cases the shooters were white males? Probably not. What really does deserve scrutiny is the justice gap between black and white in the U.S. That I'm afraid is very, very real and it doesn't get nearly the attention it deserves. I think that was the element in the Martin/Zimmerman case that may not be present here. And it's finally getting more notice.For me, it's recently been about two things:

1) Why are White perpetrators viewed and handled differently than the Black perpetrators, before, during, and after these cases.
2) Why the value placed on human life (on an ethnic level), is strikingly obvious; yet lawmakers refuse to address this glaring dispersant.

Aside...

Though it's true that the two cases were handled differently, in terms of police response, the basis or catalyst for these differences are rarely address and / or corrected.

Often, if not always, these glaring discrepancies are allowed to persist.
I fear that the likely cause may be equally economic as well as race related.
Moreover, lawmakers may believe that changing the process in one instance or case might give rise to acknowledging that a more universal problem exists within a much broader sense. And correction on this level may require an ideological or philosophical approach, if not one of process and procedures as well.

And lawmakers aren't looking to spend more time and money just for the sake of equality.

pov
Feb 4th, 2014, 04:42 AM
Thanks to confessed murderer George Zimmerman it's open season on Black male teens in Florida. Funny it's always the one with the gun who feels threatened.

When you write stuff like that you don't help. In fact, I'm beginning to wonder if you post it here because you know that many readers don't have all the pieces to the big picture. As horrible as it is, the fact is that most young black men who are murdered are killed by other young black men. I haven't checked stats but if the percentage killed by other races is even 10% I'll be very surprised.

And yeah black men have killed other black men over loud music. Black men have killed other black men who are unarmed. Frequently. But people with your mindset don't seem to really care about that or about seeing more of these black men lead long fulfilling and relatively peaceful lives. You are stuck on mining tragedies to find the things that fits your "look, see, it's the white man doing it" agenda. You really think you're being pro-black? You're not. Spinning on stuff that while sad, horrible and deserving of outrage is also easily sensationalized and represents a small percentage of the violence black kids are facing.

pov
Feb 4th, 2014, 04:50 AM
“Our suspect produced a weapon and started firing into the vehicle. Our victim was shot a couple of times,” Schoonover said. “ … They were listening to the music. It was loud; they [other teens] admitted that. But I mean that is not a reason for someone to open fire on them.”

Sick, twisted sh*t.

meyerpl
Feb 4th, 2014, 05:21 AM
For me, it's recently been about two things:

1) Why are White perpetrators viewed and handled differently than the Black perpetrators, before, during, and after these cases.
2) Why the value placed on human life (on an ethnic level), is strikingly obvious; yet lawmakers refuse to address this glaring dispersant.

Aside...

Though it's true that the two cases were handled differently, in terms of police response, the basis or catalyst for these differences are rarely address and / or corrected.

Often, if not always, these glaring discrepancies are allowed to persist.
I fear that the likely cause may be equally economic as well as race related.
Moreover, lawmakers may believe that changing the process in one instance or case might give rise to acknowledging that a more universal problem exists within a much broader sense. And correction on this level may require an ideological or philosophical approach, if not one of process and procedures as well.

And lawmakers aren't looking to spend more time and money just for the sake of equality.Precisely! And it seems that the push for reform is arising from the grass roots level, with folks from every station in life driving the push. Public servants at every level are being publicly called-out when they aren't providing justice for all, and we should not rest until justice is served on an equal basis for all. It may seem like a pipe dream, but I believe the day may come when it becomes a living, breathing reality.

Stamp Paid
Feb 4th, 2014, 05:28 AM
Precisely! And it seems that the push for reform is arising from the grass roots level, with folks from every station in life driving the push. Public servants at every level are being publicly called-out when they aren't providing justice for all, and we should not rest until justice is served on an equal basis for all. It may seem like a pipe dream, but I believe the day may come when it becomes a living, breathing reality.How's this for bombastic? :lol:

But seriously, never will that be in this country, founded on settler colonialism and white supremacy.
Maybe in a new country if we raze over and start over again.

meyerpl
Feb 4th, 2014, 05:33 AM
How's this for bombastic? :lol:

But seriously, never will that be in this country, founded on settler colonialism and white supremacy.
Maybe in a new country if we raze over and start over again.How's this for bombastic?? :)

Look, we are never going to achieve perfection in terms of justice, but that shouldn't dissuade us from pursuing it and finding excellence.

I'm not immune from becoming discouraged but I still believe in possibility.

Stamp Paid
Feb 4th, 2014, 05:50 AM
How's this for bombastic?? :)

Look, we are never going to achieve perfection in terms of justice, but that shouldn't dissuade us from pursuing it and finding excellence.

I'm not immune from becoming discouraged but I still believe in possibility.
I understand where you're coming from. Most good white people have to believe in that possibility.
Otherwise it renders their entire social world incoherent.

wild.river
Feb 4th, 2014, 06:03 AM
How's this for bombastic? :lol:

But seriously, never will that be in this country, founded on settler colonialism and white supremacy.
Maybe in a new country if we raze over and start over again.

i suppose that would ideally start with a massacre of white people :confused:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/Incendie_de_la_Plaine_du_Cap._-_Massacre_des_Blancs_par_les_Noirs._FRANCE_MILITAI RE._-_Martinet_del._-_Masson_Sculp_-_33.jpg/749px-Incendie_de_la_Plaine_du_Cap._-_Massacre_des_Blancs_par_les_Noirs._FRANCE_MILITAI RE._-_Martinet_del._-_Masson_Sculp_-_33.jpg
1804 haiti ethnic cleansing of whites

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Jean-Jacques-Dessalines.jpg
the man who ordered it

or are you not trying to celebrate this event by putting these two images in your signature and avatar?


edit- sorry, off topic. just rather surprising to see images like this. i can't imagine anyone seriously trying to have a discussion on race issues with a signature of whites being slaughtered by blacks.

Stamp Paid
Feb 4th, 2014, 06:49 AM
Totally O/T, but:
i suppose that would ideally start with a massacre of white people :confused:
I shouldn't even dignify this with a response.
In a country like South Africa, maybe. But the US is not a black nation. A massacre of white people would have no viable political ends.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/Incendie_de_la_Plaine_du_Cap._-_Massacre_des_Blancs_par_les_Noirs._FRANCE_MILITAI RE._-_Martinet_del._-_Masson_Sculp_-_33.jpg/749px-Incendie_de_la_Plaine_du_Cap._-_Massacre_des_Blancs_par_les_Noirs._FRANCE_MILITAI RE._-_Martinet_del._-_Masson_Sculp_-_33.jpg
1804 haiti ethnic cleansing of whites

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Jean-Jacques-Dessalines.jpg
the man who ordered it

or are you not trying to celebrate this event by putting these two images in your signature and avatar?


edit- sorry, off topic. just rather surprising to see images like this. i can't imagine anyone seriously trying to have a discussion on race issues with a signature of whites being slaughtered by blacks.Did you just learn these historical facts for the first time tonight?

The tribute to Jean-Jacques Dessalines (the First Emperor of Haiti) is in my avy and sig for Black History Month. The insurrection in St. Domingue was a seminal moment in Black Atlantic history, so yes, I celebrate it. Lots of people do.
And it was not a massacre of whites - Polish and German noncombatants were purposely spared during the Haitian struggle for liberty against the French who raped and enslaved them. You have clearly misread both the piece of work in the signature (which was drawn and dramatized this way specifically for White French colonial sympathizers), and my intentions. This irony is made evident in Boukman's prayer, which is also in my sig. You should look into the historical event, its fascinating stuff.

if the only thing that was legible to you in my avy/sig combination was that white people should be massacred, thats a result of your own projections.

wild.river
Feb 4th, 2014, 07:46 AM
Did you just learn these historical facts for the first time tonight?

The tribute to Jean-Jacques Dessalines (the First Emperor of Haiti) is in my avy and sig for Black History Month. The insurrection in St. Domingue was a seminal moment in Black Atlantic history, so yes, I celebrate it. Lots of people do.
And it was not a massacre of whites - Polish and Germans were purposely spared during the Haitian struggle for liberty against the French who raped and enslaved them. You have clearly misread both the piece of work in the signature (which was drawn and dramatized this way specifically for White French colonial sympathizers), and my intentions. This irony is made evident in Boukman's prayer, which is also in my sig. You should look into the historical event, its fascinating stuff.

if the only thing that was legible to you in my avy/sig combination was that white people should be massacred, thats a result of your own projections.

i recognized dessalines from studying this event in school. the images i've seen that commemorate haiti's liberation are usually more...uplifting. like soldiers fighting soldiers. i don't think i've encountered many people picking the post-freedom annihilation of white french men, women, and children as the event to celebrate. that's why i interpreted it as your being gleeful about blacks slaughtering whites in the past. apologies for misreading your intentions.

tennisbum79
Feb 4th, 2014, 12:47 PM
i suppose that would ideally start with a massacre of white people :confused:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/Incendie_de_la_Plaine_du_Cap._-_Massacre_des_Blancs_par_les_Noirs._FRANCE_MILITAI RE._-_Martinet_del._-_Masson_Sculp_-_33.jpg/749px-Incendie_de_la_Plaine_du_Cap._-_Massacre_des_Blancs_par_les_Noirs._FRANCE_MILITAI RE._-_Martinet_del._-_Masson_Sculp_-_33.jpg
1804 haiti ethnic cleansing of whites

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Jean-Jacques-Dessalines.jpg
the man who ordered it

or are you not trying to celebrate this event by putting these two images in your signature and avatar?


edit- sorry, off topic. just rather surprising to see images like this. i can't imagine anyone seriously trying to have a discussion on race issues with a signature of whites being slaughtered by blacks.
Really?