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KournikovaFan91
Nov 26th, 2012, 01:40 PM
Catalonia polls favour nationalist parties
The vote gives forces favouring Catalan statehood a commanding majority overall in the 135-seat regional parliament.

The economically powerful region of Catalonia has voted into office a large majority of pro-independence legislators, but the leader who made a referendum over breaking away from Spain a central plank of his campaign saw his party's majority reduced by 12 seats.

The centre-right Convergence and Union alliance (CiU) of regional president Artur Mas saw its parliamentary majority fall to 50 seats from 62, while leftist pro-independence party ERC came in second with 21, results from the regional government showed, with nearly all votes counted.

Mas appeared on television late on Sunday to thank his party for its support and to acknowledge that they could no longer rule alone as a minority government.

He also said that "those who think the referendum plan has been aborted" needed to.

Two pro-unity parties - Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy's Popular Party and the Catalan Ciutadans - did make modest advances, boosting their seats by seven to 28.

Growing separatism

Though a humiliating setback to Mas, who called the election two years early after Madrid rejected his demands for greater fiscal powers for Catalonia, the vote gave forces favouring Catalan statehood a commanding majority overall in the 135-seat Catalan parliament.

Growing Catalan separatism is a huge challenge for the prime minister, who is trying to bring down high borrowing costs by persuading investors of Spain's fiscal and political stability.

Many Catalans are angry that Rajoy has refused to negotiate a new tax deal with their largely self-governing region.

With a bigger population than Denmark and an economy almost as big as Portugal's, Catalonia also has its own language.

Like Basques, Catalans see themselves as distinct from the rest of Spain.

The Catalans accuse Madrid of raising far more in taxes from the region than it returns, and estimates the gap, or fiscal deficit is at $21bn a year -- a figure Madrid disputes.

The region of 7.5 million people accounts for more than one-fifth of Spain's economic output and a quarter of its exports, and boasts one of the world's best football teams, Barcelona FC.

But Catalonia also has a $57bn debt, equal to one-fifth of its output, and was forced to turn to Madrid this year for more than $6.5bn to help make the payments.

However, a referendum would be illegal under the current Spanish constitution, and Spain's ruling Popular Party is likely to block any attempts for constitutional change.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2012/11/2012112624948736412.html

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Interesting story, I'm not well versed on the whole thing put personally I tend to support such movements, so I wish them luck in their attempt at independence if that's what they desire.

Reckon this is far more likely than Scottish independence unless of course something dramatic happens and people in the UK stop believing every single word Fleet St. and the London establishment tell them :o

Sammo
Nov 26th, 2012, 01:49 PM
They've been like this forever :rolleyes::facepalm:

KournikovaFan91
Nov 26th, 2012, 01:53 PM
A recent poll suggests its the first time public opinion for independence is close or in some polls above 50%. In 2005 for example it was only 13%. With support for all other arrangements plummeting.

Whitehead's Boy
Nov 26th, 2012, 03:18 PM
It doesn't even seem to be about the culture for most people, but about money. Isn't it... egoistic? There was almost no support for the independance movement in 2005 (which only reinforces the claim that it isn't about culture, or else the support would have been much stronger back then - I mean, people didn't start to care about Catalan culture in 2012, right?) but suddently now that Spain is in trouble, almost half of the population suddently want to get out? Lame.

On a personal level, a lot of people pay taxes but they don't get much benefits from it because they don't use the health system, etc. Does that mean that their reaction should be to start being angry and stop paying taxes? Why should it be any different on a state level? Perhaps some regions are disadvantaged when we look at the global picture, but that's not a rational reason to start breaking apart a country. Like I said, it's just egoistic.

And I watched a documentary, a woman who moved from Madrid to Barcelona mentioned how hard it was for her daughter because she didn't speak Catalan. It doesn't seem to me that the language or culture is in any danger, quite the contrary, it seems to me that it's people who don't speak Catalan who sometimes face issues in 2012.

lee station
Nov 26th, 2012, 06:22 PM
the point of the elections was to reflect the current political spectrum. mas will prepare the government with erc, probably. but i think the independence is scheduled for 2014.

força!!!! :yeah:

ce
Nov 26th, 2012, 06:31 PM
:rolls:
Thats what you get big countries when you took Kosovo from us :yeah:
I hope they all get independent :hearts:

KournikovaFan91
Nov 26th, 2012, 06:42 PM
:rolls:
Thats what you get big countries when you took Kosovo from us :yeah:
I hope they all get independent :hearts:

Spain was and still is opposed to Kosovan independence.

Although you do make a good point, the Western countries were cheerleading the disintegration of Eastern Europe in the 90s but throw a hissy fit when similar movements develop in their own country. UK/Scotland, Spain/Catalonia, US reaction to Texan petition, and Canada/Quebec.

Of course Texas is never going to leave the US but the reaction by some has been ridiculous. I mean they had no issue encouraging similar federal entities like USSR and Yugoslavia to break up.

edificio
Nov 26th, 2012, 07:08 PM
Spain was and still is opposed to Kosovan independence.

Although you do make a good point, the Western countries were cheerleading the disintegration of Eastern Europe in the 90s but throw a hissy fit when similar movements develop in their own country. UK/Scotland, Spain/Catalonia, US reaction to Texan petition, and Canada/Quebec.

Of course Texas is never going to leave the US but the reaction by some has been ridiculous. I mean they had no issue encouraging similar federal entities like USSR and Yugoslavia to break up.

What reaction are you talking about? especially the ridiculous reactions you speak of, where are they? Just curious.

I have not seen any reactions, mainly I think because a minority (of Texans) makes such overtures. A minority is not a state. In order to secede, Texas would have to revolt or petition the other 49 states for approval. So I can only say "good luck with that."

dybbuk
Nov 26th, 2012, 07:12 PM
What reaction are you talking about? especially the ridiculous reactions you speak of, where are they? Just curious.

I have not seen any reactions, mainly I think because a minority (of Texans) makes such overtures. A minority is not a state. In order to secede, Texas would have to revolt or petition the other 49 states for approval. So I can only say "good luck with that."

I know a lot of Northerners (albeit a minority still, just like the Texan separatists) who support Texas leaving the union whole-heartedly. :oh: I've never seen people up in arms over a small group of Texans threatening to leave. 100% of the reactions I've ever seen are laughing at the small group of crazies or wishing some of the southern states WOULD leave.

August
Nov 26th, 2012, 08:15 PM
I'd mostly support Catalonian independence.

But there's one scary thought. Imagine a Spain v. Catalonia Davis Cup final. That would be too bad for tennis. :facepalm:

Probably the more defensive country would select an ultra-slow clay court or the less defensive country would select an ultra-fast grass/indoor carpet court, just to bring grass/carpet to disgrace by having a grindfest on it.

Sammo
Nov 26th, 2012, 08:44 PM
I'd mostly support Catalonian independence.

But there's one scary thought. Imagine a Spain v. Catalonia Davis Cup final. That would be too bad for tennis. :facepalm:


That is a highly unlikely scenario :lol: But hilarious nevertheless

Kasey
Nov 26th, 2012, 10:09 PM
Can't stand when media overhype this issue.
Desperately trying sth to look a sort of sensation, when it's not.
Just like when they were all over the screens saying that Greece would get bankrupt or leave Eurozone. Same old bullshit to scare the shit out of people.
I know its Spain's and Catalonia's own case but isn't recquired to get Madrid agree on Catalonia's independence or else it's illegall in terms of the constitution?
Besides, is it certain that a majority of voters would vote yes? bet there's plenty of Spaniards living in Catalonia, who moved from other regions.
Thirdly, look what happened with Kosovo.
So much fuss and talking but what's the point when half of countries in the world still haven't recognised its independence and is pretty likely not to do so in the future.
With Catalonia it would be even worse, anyone imagine single EU country recognising it or the US or Australia. Highly doubt that.

KournikovaFan91
Nov 26th, 2012, 10:14 PM
There is no way Catalonia would unilaterally declare independence however if the people of the region do vote that way Spain will feel external pressures to grant Catalonia independence.

How can the West promote democracy elsewhere but ignore it if it doesn't suit them in Spain :shrug:

Sam L
Nov 27th, 2012, 02:45 AM
Les Catalans should just recreate the Principality of Catalonia.

HawkAussie
Nov 27th, 2012, 03:39 AM
They shouldn't be independence for the nation as they will be. It just won't cut it.

njnetswill
Nov 27th, 2012, 04:50 AM
It's no different than Slovenia or Singapore. Wealthier regions eventually get tired of being constrained by being in a federation.

moby
Nov 27th, 2012, 05:04 AM
^How is this like Singapore?

HawkAussie
Nov 27th, 2012, 06:36 AM
It's no different than Slovenia or Singapore. Wealthier regions eventually get tired of being constrained by being in a federation.

Yeah what is like Singapore

Beat
Nov 27th, 2012, 10:04 AM
this is silly. and it's not going to happen anyway.

njnetswill
Nov 27th, 2012, 12:38 PM
^How is this like Singapore?

Yeah what is like Singapore

It's not completely analogous to the others, as Singapore was expelled from Malaysia, but you can't deny that Singapore's particular economic significance and racial composition caused a lot of it's conflicts with it ability to remain in Malaysia.

Londoner
Nov 27th, 2012, 07:55 PM
Given the travesty that is the EU, I'm all for independence if people want it.