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View Full Version : Better Grass Court Player: Venus vs Serena


Thirty All
Nov 17th, 2012, 11:49 PM
Venus:
5 Wimbledon Titles, 3 Finals, 3 Quarterfinals
Wimbledon Record: 71-11 86.6%
Notable Opposition Beat: Hingis, Davenport (x2), Dementieva (x1), Henin (x1), Clijsters (x1), Sharapova (x2), Kuznetsova (x1), Serena (x2)
Notable Mathces: def. Hingis (6-3 4-6 6-4, 2000) def. Sharapova (7-6 6-1, 2005) def. Davenport (4-6 7-6 9-7, 2005) def. Safina (6-1 6-0, 2009) def. Date-Krumm (6-7 6-3 8-6, 2011)

Serena:
5 Wimbledon Titles, 2 Finals, 1 Semifinal, 2 Quarterfinals
Wimbledon Record: 67-8 89.3%
Notable Opposition Beat: Venus (x3), Dementieva (x1), Azarenka (x2), Henin (x1), Capriati (x1), Sharapova (x1), Kvitova (x2), Mauresemo (x2)
Notablee Mathces: def. Henin (6-3 6-3, 2003) def. Marusemo (6-7 7-6 6-3, 2004) def. Hantuchova (6-2 6-7 6-2, 2007) def. Dementieva (6-7 7-5 8-6, 2009) def. Kvitova (6-4 7-5, 2012)
Olympic Gold on grass

Head to Head on Grass: 3-2 (3-1 in finals)

I think Venus wins this one. She beat tougher opposition, and dismantled many of them, including Sharapova (twice), and Safina.

forehand27
Nov 18th, 2012, 12:02 AM
I give it to Serena since she owns Venus in Wimbledon finals 3-1, and leads her 3-2 overall at Wimbledon. In any case Serena is likely to win again this coming year and make it a non debate. Can anyone seriously make a case for Venus once Serena has more Wimbledon titles playing in exactly the same era, in addition to a winning record vs her sister at the event.

As for tough competition:

2000- Tough draw and competition this year I agree.

2001- beating Davenport in the midst of her non contending period and a nowhere near prime Henin on her worst surface isnt great competition in anyway, and both still took her to 3 sets.

2005- Tough draw and competition this year I agree.

2007- Easy draw, definitely not tough competition.

2008- Except for Serena in final, easy draw with no tough opponents really.


I wouldnt say Serena had less competition. Serena had very tough draws to the title in 2002 and 2003. On paper Dementieva isnt that tough in the 09 semis but she played an amazing match, probably the match of her life, and then of course Venus in the final. 2010 and 2012 are easy, but overall Serena had no more or no less easy or tough draws than Venus.

sweetadri06
Nov 18th, 2012, 12:17 AM
Serena, just for the simple fact that her game is a more dominant force on the surface. As demonstrated at the Olympics, and she probably has one or two wimbledons left in her. I hope Venus has one more W left in her but with the illness, I'm not sure.

TPlaya8
Nov 18th, 2012, 12:38 AM
2007- Easy draw, definitely not tough competition.

2008- Except for Serena in final, easy draw with no tough opponents really.


How can you say that draw was easy. For that year 2007 she beat almost all the top players except Henin the one that didn't make it to her.

Venus was seeded 23rd and played maria in the round of 16 and had to play 4 straight days more than any of the other players had to that tournament and she still didn't lose a set the last 4 matches beating Kunetsova and Ivanovic


Only thing Serena has over Venus at Wimbledon is mental and thats why she is 3-2 vs Venus there. the one match Venus playted well is 2008 and after she took everything Serena had and still sent it back thats what really frustrated Serena that match just like Venus withstood every one's best at Wimbledon.

After those 2008 matches Wimbledon and the US Open (even though Venus lost) I witnessed how Venus had the game to take it to Serena unlike any other woman on the women's tour but it is all mental.

forehand27
Nov 18th, 2012, 12:40 AM
How can you say that draw was easy. For that year 2007 she beat almost all the top players except Henin the one that didn't make it to her.


Pretty simple. I dont consider any of Kuznetsova, Ivanovic, or Bartoli top opponents on grass period. The idea of Kuznetsova or Ivanovic ever coming close to a Wimbledon title would always have been laughable, and the idea of Bartoli winning a slam anywhere would always be laughable. No top player would struggle with Kuznetsova or Ivanovic on grass, even Henin or Clijsters who arent great grass courters would have a very easy time. As for Bartoli, yes she beat Henin but that was just a super bad loss and performance by Henin, not to mention a huge fluke type upset, it doesnt suddenly make Bartoli this great player. Only Sharapova in the round of 16 as a somewhat tough opponent.

Steven.
Nov 18th, 2012, 12:41 AM
is this a joke, serena is the better player whose game translate on all surfaces (except on clay but that's because of her sloppy movement and not her game). venus has the more suited grasscourt game though.

venus is the better "grass court player" in the sense that her game, and mentality and point construction is most suited to grasscourt compared to rena's

edit: ps soz for totes sounding like a bitch with "is this a joke", not in a good mood atm :sobbing:

brickhousesupporter
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:01 AM
The score on the Henin Match 03 for Serena is wrong.

Tag
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:14 AM
serena

she beat venus and took over wimbledon

StoneRose
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:17 AM
Serena, much more allround game also on grass.

Uranium
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:20 AM
^Serena has taken over Wimbledon only because Sjogrens has taken over Venus. Yeah, I said it, what you gonna do about it?

kiwifan
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:20 AM
Here's my "cop out"...

Venus is the better "Grass Court" Player

But Serena is the better "Tennis Player"

Chris Evert is the better "Clay Court" Player but I like Serena's chances against her on Clay...in fact I like Serena's chances against anyone on any surface...anytime...if she's committed to the win. :angel:

forehand27
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:24 AM
^Serena has taken over Wimbledon only because Sjogrens has taken over Venus. Yeah, I said it, what you gonna do about it?

I would be willing to go along with that except for the fact Serena won back to back Wimbledons, beating Venus in back to back finals in 2002-2003, before there was any Sjogrens.

I do rate both in the top 4 all time on grass along with Graf, Navratilova, Venus, and Serena. If Serena wins another Wimbledon though she will move to #2 on my list behind Graf, and if she wins another 2 Wimbledons she would move to my grass court GOAT. Same goes for Venus, but obviously less likely to happen for her at this stage unfortunately.

Uranium
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:26 AM
I give it to Serena since she owns Venus in Wimbledon finals 3-1, and leads her 3-2 overall at Wimbledon. In any case Serena is likely to win again this coming year and make it a non debate. Can anyone seriously make a case for Venus once Serena has more Wimbledon titles playing in exactly the same era, in addition to a winning record vs her sister at the event.

As for tough competition:

2000- Tough draw and competition this year I agree.

2001- beating Davenport in the midst of her non contending period and a nowhere near prime Henin on her worst surface isnt great competition in anyway, and both still took her to 3 sets.

2005- Tough draw and competition this year I agree.

2007- Easy draw, definitely not tough competition.

2008- Except for Serena in final, easy draw with no tough opponents really.


I wouldnt say Serena had less competition. Serena had very tough draws to the title in 2002 and 2003. On paper Dementieva isnt that tough in the 09 semis but she played an amazing match, probably the match of her life, and then of course Venus in the final. 2010 and 2012 are easy, but overall Serena had no more or no less easy or tough draws than Venus.
The bold comments are comical. Lindsay is not a tough draw and yet she ended 2001 as the #1 player. 2007 was not a tough draw despite Venus playing Maria, Sveta, and Ana. Sveta played great in that match btw.
Serena had tough draws in 2002 and 2003. Get the fuck out of here:lol: 2002 she only had Venus, similar to your 2008 comment. Very tough 2002 draw:rolls: 2003 was tough.
You have the balls to call 2007 easy while you call Serena's 2002 tough.:lol:

Andy.
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:27 AM
Venus is such a natural grass court player. Her game was made for grass. Her transition game and movement on the surface is better. Serena's mental strength was got her wins again Venus on this surface.

Tag
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:28 AM
^Serena has taken over Wimbledon only because Sjogrens has taken over Venus. Yeah, I said it, what you gonna do about it?

i am going to point you to the wimbledon finals where serena beat venus

venus is a great grass court player, one of the greats of wimbledon, certainly far better than sharapova can ever hope to be :shrug:

but serena is better than her on grass, if you take it as one match up, head to head

forehand27
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:32 AM
The bold comments are comical. Lindsay is not a tough draw and yet she ended 2001 as the #1 player. 2007 was not a tough draw despite Venus playing Maria, Sveta, and Ana. Sveta played great in that match btw.
Serena had tough draws in 2002 and 2003. Get the fuck out of here:lol: 2002 she only had Venus, similar to your 2008 comment. Very tough 2002 draw:rolls: 2003 was tough.
You have the balls to call 2007 easy while you call Serena's 2002 tough.:lol:

Davenport ending 2001 as year end #1 is merely an example of the outrageously comical ranking thing starting. She was #1 in NOBODYS mind except the computer that year, Venus and Capriati were both light years ahead of her, and Serena was also much better than her that year. Davenport was mired in a period of stagnation and even slumping, and was no contender to win any slams from 2001-2003 and everyone knew it. As it was she didnt even reach a single slam final any of those years (nor 2004 either, although late 2004 is the first time she became a contender to win slams again).

As for the idea of Kuznetsova and Ivanovic being tough opponents on grass a huge ROTFL to that. Neither would even rank amongst the top 15 grass courters of their era.

You say in 2002 she only had Venus? She had Mauresmo in the semis, who is probably the 4th best grass courter of the Williams era behind the 2 Williams and Davenport. Now that said you would have a point if you hadnt stupidly tried to build up Kuznetsova and Ivanovic, as Mauresmo in 2002 probably wasnt much different from Davenport in 2001, but are you actually suggesting that Ivanovic, Kuznetsova, or even Sharapova are tougher opponents on grass than Mauresmo!?!?! As for your last comment what the fuck are you smoking, Venus and Mauresmo in 2002 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ivanovic, Kuznetsova, and Sharpova (by far best of those three but weaker grass courter than Mauresmo, and light years weaker one than Venus of course). Thanks for the laughs all around.

Uranium
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:40 AM
^You are talking about Mauresmo post 2002 though. I am talking about Mauresmo in 2002. I am talking about Kuznetsova and Ivanovic playing well in the 2007 matches and being top ten players at that time, while you say they suck on grass in their careers. And Mauresmo in 2002 was much different from Lindsay in 2001. Difference is I am talking about tough draws as they were played/at that period of time, not looking back and basing judgment on how tough they were considering what they have done since then like you're doing.

forehand27
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:51 AM
You seem to be suggesting Venus had a tough draw in 2007 and Serena didnt in 2002. Sorry there is simply no way I could agree with that. Lets break down their opponents from toughest downwards:

Venus 2002 >>>>> Sharapova 2007
Mauresmo 2002 >>> Bartoli 2007 (Bartoli is a tougher opponent on grass than either Kuznetsova or Ivanovic btw)
Hantuchova 2002 = Kuznetsova or Ivanovic 2007 (Hantuchova was at her peak and I dont think in anyway is a lesser grass courter to either Kuznetsova or Ivanovic, both whose worst surface by far is grass)

Now as for comparing 2001 to 2002 which you seem to also disagree with, the toughest opponent Venus played in 2001 was a slumping Davenport and obviously 2002 Venus is way tougher than 2001 Davenport. 2002 Mauresmo would instead be compared to 2001 Henin as the second toughest opponent, and the general feeling is Mauresmo is a better grass courter than Henin even prime to prime and in general, and Henin was much further from her prime in 2001 than Mauresmo in 2002.

Yes I am aware 2002 Mauresmo was not peak Mauresmo, but it was probably already prime Mauresmo. She was already winning tier 1 titles, beating top players in slams, and starting her ownage of Capriati around Capriati's peak. Of course she wasnt going to win any slams with the Williams peaking then, but that is aside the point. The main point is I am completely sure Mauresmo of 2002 was already a much better grass courter than Kuznetsova or Ivanovic ever were.
Mauresmo btw was easily a "top 10" player in 2002, just as Ana and Svetlana in 2007 were.

For what it is worth I think the competition talk is pointless in the sense that any year Venus and Serena are playing well enough to win Wimbledon, there is no available draw at any given time that could have stopped them. The only ones who can stop them in a year they are in Wimbledon winning form is each other, the only other one who even came close ever in that case was Davenport in 2005 and Dementieva in 2009, that is it. My only point was I dont see Venus overall as having had much difference in tougher competition than Serena. For me Serena had tough draws in 2002 and 2003, an ok draw in 2009, and easy ones in 2010 and 2012. Venus had tough draws in 2005, 2000, an ok draw in 2000 and 2001, and an easy one in 2007. Not much difference either way.

maharbabackwards
Nov 18th, 2012, 02:04 AM
People also forget 2003 where Venus was supremely injured was by far the better player up until her injury in the semifinals.

TPlaya8
Nov 18th, 2012, 02:58 AM
People also forget 2003 where Venus was supremely injured was by far the better player up until her injury in the semifinals.

^ This. Venus was the best player in that entire tournament at the time then all the semifinalist. and if there was going to be anytime Venus was goint to try her hardest to take it too Serena during that '02-'03 stretch it would have been here. I think she would have fought harder than she did in Melbourne, because Wimbledon '02 was the only time I seen Venus show negative emotion after losing to Serena there was actually a tear coming down her face after losing to Serena at Wimbledon she was playing with a purpose in '03



Yes I am aware 2002 Mauresmo was not peak Mauresmo, but it was probably already prime Mauresmo. She was already winning tier 1 titles, beating top players in slams, and starting her ownage of Capriati around Capriati's peak. Of course she wasnt going to win any slams with the Williams peaking then, but that is aside the point. The main point is I am completely sure Mauresmo of 2002 was already a much better grass courter than Kuznetsova or Ivanovic ever were.
Mauresmo btw was easily a "top 10" player in 2002, just as Ana and Svetlana in 2007 were.


and you are saying all this about Mauresmo and th eplayer she was in 2002 but Svetlana was a Grand Slam Champion at this moment and had Tier 1 titles by 2007. Ivanovic had just come off a French open final and between Kunestova and ivanovic they were finalist in 4 out of 5 Slams in that moment. Only Wimbeldon were Venus beat them both, was the Grand Slam neither one of them made it to the final. '07 US Open -Kunestova, Ana- '07 French, '08 Aussie, '08 French!


I think they were tougher contenders than Mauresmo of 2002 she hadn't been in a slam final since 1999 and didn't reach another one until 2006!

forehand27
Nov 18th, 2012, 03:45 AM
and you are saying all this about Mauresmo and th eplayer she was in 2002 but Svetlana was a Grand Slam Champion at this moment and had Tier 1 titles by 2007. Ivanovic had just come off a French open final and between Kunestova and ivanovic they were finalist in 4 out of 5 Slams in that moment. Only Wimbeldon were Venus beat them both, was the Grand Slam neither one of them made it to the final. '07 US Open -Kunestova, Ana- '07 French, '08 Aussie, '08 French!


I think they were tougher contenders than Mauresmo of 2002 she hadn't been in a slam final since 1999 and didn't reach another one until 2006!

Mauresmo was only stopped at Wimbledon and U.S Open 2002 by peak Williams, and barely at that by peak Venus at the U.S Open later that summer. I dont think I need to tell to you Kuznetsova and Ivanovic wouldnt have been making any slam finals either facing peak Williams of 02. Lets be honest that Kuznetsova and Ivanovic were making so many slam finals in 07/08 was mostly due to the pathetic state womens tennis was starting to reach. All slam finals they were in were weak matches, the U.S Open final where Henin raped Kuznetsova a new one later that year was a joke, the French Open final a month earlier where Henin butchered Ivanovic into pieces was even worse. Those were on their favorite surfaces though, not even on grass where neither are any good.