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Joe.
Nov 16th, 2012, 05:46 PM
Thought I'd join the 'Peak' hype.

I actually think Maria wins this one....

DeucesAreWild
Nov 16th, 2012, 05:53 PM
I love Maria & Venus.

It's obviously Venus. At her best her serve is better, her backhand is better, she's better in both offensive and defensive play, she's better at the net, and her movement is better. I think the only check I'd give Maria is the forehand. She is more consistent, but Venus' is still lethal.

Uranium
Nov 16th, 2012, 05:53 PM
LOL. Venus.

In The Zone
Nov 16th, 2012, 05:54 PM
Lol .... not even close. Venus wins easy. Wimbledon 2005 was pretty close to what we'll get.

hBence
Nov 16th, 2012, 05:54 PM
definitely Venus.
6-2 6-2 or something like that

Queen_Vee_92
Nov 16th, 2012, 05:58 PM
Venus.

She'd be consistently be able to do exactly what Rena and Vika are doing to her today.

Expose her movement and force her to go for too much through being an exceptional mover and first strike player.

i.will2
Nov 16th, 2012, 05:59 PM
If you say Sharapova you are either naive or delusional she wouldn't touch Peak Venus.

Kasey
Nov 16th, 2012, 06:54 PM
LOL, Venus would smack Martha leaving her in teras and getting an attack of hysteria because of being bagelled.

NashaMasha
Nov 16th, 2012, 06:56 PM
Venus.

She'd be consistently be able to do exactly what Rena and Vika are doing to her today.

Expose her movement and force her to go for too much through being an exceptional mover and first strike player.

Venus is 1-3 on HC with only win over aftersurgery Pova.....

except grass Venus vs Masha = 50/50

PetraReeMona
Nov 16th, 2012, 07:13 PM
Venus is 1-3 on HC with only win over aftersurgery Pova.....

except grass Venus vs Masha = 50/50

If it's aftersurgery Pova, then all of Masha's win were Sjogren's Syndrome Venus.

Two can play at that game :D

You lost all your credibility in that Peak Maria -v- Peak Serena thread :sad:

danieln1
Nov 16th, 2012, 07:19 PM
WTF??????

Venus 6-1 6-4 everywhere

i.will2
Nov 16th, 2012, 07:25 PM
Venus is 1-3 on HC with only win over aftersurgery Pova.....

except grass Venus vs Masha = 50/50

YOu're not seriously about to argue against "PEAK" Venus being being better than Sharapova are you??

Seriously thanks for the bad rep BUT when you're wrong you're wrong just face facts. Maria is good but Venus is better period.

Stonerpova
Nov 16th, 2012, 07:26 PM
Venus. Wimbledon 2005 was as close to a Peak vs. Peak match as we've gotten from the pair of them. Maria hit the ball so cleanly and served well and still lost in straights. Venus moves too well.

NashaMasha
Nov 16th, 2012, 07:28 PM
If it's aftersurgery Pova, then all of Masha's win were Sjogren's Syndrome Venus.

Two can play at that game :D

You lost all your credibility in that Peak Maria -v- Peak Serena thread :sad:

you lost your credibility when became I.Hate.Sharapova , at the same time pretending to be I.luv.Kvitova/Azarenka/Radwanska etc


Venus second serve still is her main weakness, that's why she is not Serena in achievements and everywhere except grass she is not better that her main competitors including Sharapova

Venus. Wimbledon 2005 was as close to a Peak vs. Peak match
Peak Venus will beat anyone on grass, including her sister .... at the same time Peak Venus will lose even to no peak players at AO and RG

i.will2
Nov 16th, 2012, 07:31 PM
Venus. Wimbledon 2005 was as close to a Peak vs. Peak match as we've gotten from the pair of them. Maria hit the ball so cleanly and served well and still lost in straights. Venus moves too well.

Exactly Venus would run down everything on whatever surface and frustrate Maria. The funny part is though Venus would rarely be on the defensive in this matchup. Playing her best she has too many options. She can finish points from the baseline or at the net. Maria has no Plan B or backup game, if she can't hit you off the court she's not going to win. Let Sharapova attempt to come in to net against Venus and see how often she gets passed.

NashaMasha
Nov 16th, 2012, 07:42 PM
Exactly Venus would run down everything on whatever surface and frustrate Maria. The funny part is though Venus would rarely be on the defensive in this matchup. Playing her best she has too many options. She can finish points from the baseline or at the net. Maria has no Plan B or backup game, if she can't hit you off the court she's not going to win. Let Sharapova attempt to come in to net against Venus and see how often she gets passed.


if she is so good on all surfaces, why it happened so that she's never won RG and AO? and won less Tier 1 than Sharapova in shorter career?

the only one explanation is that she is not that good outside fast surfaces

forehand27
Nov 16th, 2012, 07:44 PM
This is similar to the Kim vs Venus analogy, although Maria with a totally different gamestyle and problems she presents than Kim. Non peak Venus is in very tough vs Maria on any non grass surface. However peak Venus, the Venus of 2000-early 2003 would regularly beat even peak Maria on any surface other than maybe clay. The matches on hard courts might be close but Venus would be the winner.

forehand27
Nov 16th, 2012, 07:45 PM
grass Venus vs Masha = 50/50

Please tell me this is a very late April fools joke.

i.will2
Nov 16th, 2012, 08:08 PM
if she is so good on all surfaces, why it happened so that she's never won RG and AO? and won less Tier 1 than Sharapova in shorter career?

the only one explanation is that she is not that good outside fast surfaces

There are many reasons she hasn't won RG or the AO but the main reason is her sister. Her level of play though, her Peak, which is what we are comparing to Sharapova's peak isn't even a question. Venus in 2000-2001 and from 2002-2003 would beat Sharapova from any year.

I could ask you why Maria has never defended any major title she won or why she only has 4 slams and Venus has 7 but that wouldn't be relevant to who would win if they met and were playing their absolute best.

NashaMasha
Nov 16th, 2012, 08:15 PM
Please tell me this is a very late April fools joke.

so Peak Venus who couldn't beat OMG Barbara Schett at RG would have beaten peak Sharapova?

People here are so delusional to decrease surface advantage significance

even at her Peak Venus was struggling on Rebound Ace vs the likes of Amanda Coetzer and Silvija Talaja

forehand27
Nov 16th, 2012, 08:16 PM
The tennis Venus played at the 2003 Australian Open would have won any other Australian Open in the decade after that year probably. Sadly for her peakRena was playing at the same time, and even though Serena wasnt playing her best that event and Venus should have beaten her there, Serena owned Venus mentally almost as badly as she owns Maria mentally today at that point. Peak Venus didnt emerge much on Australian hard courts, the only times were the 2003 Australian Open and 2000 Olympics, but either would be very hard and nearly impossible for anyone not named Serena to beat.

As for all other hard courts the tennis Venus has played to win her U.S Open and Miami titles, and to dominate the pre U.S Open hard court summers of 99-2002, especialy 2000 and 2001, speaks for itself, and is superior to anything Maria could manage. Venus's U.S Open record is vastly superior to Maria's in every sense, so is her Miami record, and Maria never dominated the summer hard court seasons like Venus did a few years, so there should be no discussion between the two on any type of hard court outside the slower bouncy Australian hard courts, unless one believes Maria is an especialy bad matchup for Venus.

Lastly clay. I could see Maria being given that one, but Venus never produced her peak clay tennis at Roland Garros unfortunately. Watch Venus of Rome 1999, Hamburg 1999, Charleston 2004, Charleston 2004, and say Maria would win easily, I doubt it.

Still trying to figure out if the poster I quoted saying grass is 50/50 between peak Maria and peak Venus though, as that is especialy rich.

forehand27
Nov 16th, 2012, 08:18 PM
so Peak Venus who couldn't beat OMG Barbara Schett at RG would have beaten peak Sharapova?

Your comment was on GRASS, not clay. Maria was much closer to her peak than Venus in 2005 and 2007 and still got spanked off the court by Venus at Wimbledon. 2005 is the 2nd best Wimbledon Maria ever played, actually apart from the 04 final the best Wimbledon she ever played, and Venus completely outclassed her. You said on grass it was 50/50 between the two peak to peak, and if you seriously believe that you either have never watched tennis or are a deluded Maria stan.

NashaMasha
Nov 16th, 2012, 08:22 PM
Your comment was on GRASS, not clay. Maria was much closer to her peak than Venus in 2005 and 2007 and still got spanked off the court by Venus at Wimbledon. 2005 is the 2nd best Wimbledon Maria ever played, actually apart from the 04 final the best Wimbledon she ever played, and Venus completely outclassed her. You said on grass it was 50/50 between the two peak to peak, and if you seriously believe that you either have never watched tennis or are a deluded Maria stan.

read it once again

except grass Venus vs Masha = 50/50

now pls read more carefully or buy glasses

as for 2003 AO ,on her road to the final was only Henin who was slamless that time and definitely far from her peak

PetraReeMona
Nov 16th, 2012, 08:31 PM
you lost your credibility when became I.Hate.Sharapova , at the same time pretending to be I.luv.Kvitova/Azarenka/Radwanska etc


Venus second serve still is her main weakness, that's why she is not Serena in achievements and everywhere except grass she is not better that her main competitors including Sharapova


Peak Venus will beat anyone on grass, including her sister .... at the same time Peak Venus will lose even to no peak players at AO and RG

Difference is luv .... I don't take this board seriously like you do, so I don't care about credibility .... which you certainly do. You are so serious on here ... oh and extremely defensive :spit:

Became I Hate Sharapova :confused: I've always despised Sour Face, but I've always loved my Kvitty and Aga and I do like Vika since she's calmed down a lot :bounce:

Povin
Nov 16th, 2012, 08:39 PM
Maria is a watered version of Venus. :rolleyes: Serena plays with Venus a lot, so C beats Sharapova easily. Peak Vee is better in all aspects of the game + 987098 times better at the net

TheShowMustGoOn
Nov 16th, 2012, 08:46 PM
Venus by miles doesn't even need explaining.

forehand27
Nov 16th, 2012, 08:54 PM
read it once again

now pls read more carefully or buy glasses

My apologies, I thought you were saying except on grass where it would be 50/50. You are one to talk though, the way you phrased it could easily be interpreted many ways yet you are the one who interpreted my saying Austin was a shadow of her old self AFTER 1981 as meaning Austin wasnt any good anymore in 1981 itself (rather than after 1981 as I explicably said) and even sent me a bad rep whining about how I could say Austin wasnt that good in 1981. :lol:

as for 2003 AO ,on her road to the final was only Henin who was slamless that time and definitely far from her peak

Henin's 2nd best year ever was 2003. You epic fail here. Watch that 2003 Australian Open semifinal btw. It was a tremendous match. Henin played first rate tennis, a hell of alot better than she did in her 2006 U.S Open and 2008 Australian Open defeats to Maria which were both average at best for her standards, and Venus was just better.

NashaMasha
Nov 16th, 2012, 09:02 PM
My apologies, I thought you were saying except on grass where it would be 50/50. You are one to talk though, the way you phrased it could easily be interpreted many ways yet you are the one who interpreted my saying Austin was a shadow of her old self AFTER 1981 as meaning Austin wasnt any good anymore in 1981 itself (rather than after 1981 as I explicably said) and even sent me a bad rep whining about how I could say Austin wasnt that good in 1981. :lol:



Henin's 2nd best year ever was 2003. You epic fail here. Watch that 2003 Australian Open semifinal btw. It was a tremendous match. Henin played first rate tennis, a hell of alot better than she did in her 2006 U.S Open and 2008 Australian Open defeats to Maria which were both average at best for her standards, and Venus was just better.
Justine is player actually owned by Venus and her best seasons are still 2006-2007

in 2003 Venus was beating a player who was 1) slamless 2) 1-6 vs her .....

forehand27
Nov 16th, 2012, 09:05 PM
So Venus should be faulted for owning one of the greatest players of the last 15 years? 2003 Henin was still a totally new Henin from 2001-2002 where I could see downplaying Venus's wins against, and yes the overall head to head is deceptive and a bit of a joke for that reason. However the fact the new and improved Henin starting what would be her 2nd best year ever in 2003 went down that easily to Venus on slow hard courts, shows just how well Venus was playing that event.

Are you disputing Venus's extremely high level of play at the 2003 Australian Open? Did you watch the event. I would say it is atleast on par with Maria at the 2008 Australian Open, which was also truly outstanding on Maria's part.

dsanders06
Nov 16th, 2012, 09:25 PM
:rolls: at people still trotting out Peak Venus's supposedly great movement. Even though she had great raw athleticism, her defence was always extremely inefficient due to her bad anticipation and very low tennis IQ. Maria won the majority of extended rallies in all her non-grass matches against Venus.

Peak Venus wins on grass and quick hardcourts, Maria wins on slow hardcourts and clay. Maria would've been able to get hold of Venus's serve on slower surfaces and probably manage to scrape back most of Venus's first strikes in a rally, and then Maria's superior and less error-prone groundgame would do the rest of the work :shrug:

dsanders06
Nov 16th, 2012, 09:38 PM
Some of you guys suggesting Venus would beat Maria on slower surfaces should watch the match between Seles and Venus at the AO in 2002. Venus had beaten Monica in all their previous matches on super-quick surfaces, but the one time they played on a slow surface, Venus's more powerful first strike wasn't good enough to get the job done -- even as slow a player as Monica (slower than Maria for sure) was able to get Venus's first couple of big shots back, and then the fact that Monica got better consistent length on her shots than Venus beyond the first few shots in a rally (as Maria would) meant the match heavily tilted to her favour. And the Sharapova-Venus match-up would play out similarly.

(And I don't think Sharapova and Seles are similar players generally, but I do think they would play a broadly similar role in the match-up against Peak Venus.)

selesbooz
Nov 16th, 2012, 09:43 PM
Peak Venus My Ass :help: MF please.
Maria has always been and will always be a better player then Venus ragged ass
Maria's BH is better then Venus. Venus moves better and hit her forehand harder but Maria's FH is more consistent. Venus's 1st serve is more powerful but not better by any means and venus's 2nd serve :lol:.

One thing that has really got me through this year when Masha been mauled by that bear is that she still one bitch named Williams :bounce:

slydevil6142
Nov 16th, 2012, 09:45 PM
Some of you guys suggesting Venus would beat Maria on slower surfaces should watch the match between Seles and Venus at the AO in 2002. Venus had beaten Monica in all their previous matches on super-quick surfaces, but the one time they played on a slow surface, Venus's more powerful first strike wasn't good enough to get the job done -- even as slow a player as Monica (slower than Maria for sure) was able to get Venus's first couple of big shots back, and then the fact that Monica got better consistent length on her shots than Venus beyond the first few shots in a rally (as Maria would) meant the match heavily tilted to her favour. And the Sharapova-Venus match-up would play out similarly.

(And I don't think Sharapova and Seles are similar players generally, but I do think they would play a broadly similar role in the match-up against Peak Venus.)
:lol::lol:
You mean the same 02' OZ open where venus was limping around the court vs Seles?? Convienent this is your example....

V.e.s.W
Nov 16th, 2012, 09:45 PM
you lost your credibility when became I.Hate.Sharapova , at the same time pretending to be I.luv.Kvitova/Azarenka/Radwanska etc


Venus second serve still is her main weakness, that's why she is not Serena in achievements and everywhere except grass she is not better that her main competitors including Sharapova


Peak Venus will beat anyone on grass, including her sister .... at the same time Peak Venus will lose even to no peak players at AO and RG

Peak Venus doesn't really need her second serve to be that good... cuz her 1st serve is untouchable ;)

TheDream
Nov 16th, 2012, 09:45 PM
Some of you guys suggesting Venus would beat Maria on slower surfaces should watch the match between Seles and Venus at the AO in 2002. Venus had beaten Monica in all their previous matches on super-quick surfaces, but the one time they played on a slow surface, Venus's more powerful first strike wasn't good enough to get the job done -- even as slow a player as Monica (slower than Maria for sure) was able to get Venus's first couple of big shots back, and then the fact that Monica got better consistent length on her shots than Venus beyond the first few shots in a rally (as Maria would) meant the match heavily tilted to her favour. And the Sharapova-Venus match-up would play out similarly.

(And I don't think Sharapova and Seles are similar players generally, but I do think they would play a broadly similar role in the match-up against Peak Venus.)


Bad example. Venus had a knee injury during that tournament. If you actually followed that tournament, or watched the match, you'd know this. Once again showing and proving your limited tennis IQ. :lol:

dsanders06
Nov 16th, 2012, 09:47 PM
Again, knee injuries are irrelevant because Venus's defence has never been an asset :lol: She was striking the ball at her normal standard in that match. I watched it a while ago.
By popular consent in the "Peak" thread, one of Venus's best ever matches was in the Wimbledon '09 match against Safina - when she had a knee injury.

TheDream
Nov 16th, 2012, 09:47 PM
:lol::lol:
You mean the same 02' OZ open where venus was limping around the court vs Seles?? Convienent this is your example....

:lol: You said it right before I did. Using that is a terrible example and even with limited mobility, Venus had chances to win the match.

TheDream
Nov 16th, 2012, 09:50 PM
Again, knee injuries are irrelevant because Venus's defence has never been an asset :lol: She was striking the ball at her normal standard in that match. I watched it a while ago.
By popular consent in the "Peak" thread, one of Venus's best ever matches was in the Wimbledon '09 match against Safina - when she had a knee injury.

WTF are you talking about, Venus and Serena's defense/movement are a huge part of their success. And, watch the match between Venus and Monica at the YEC that same year, Venus was running down everything.

Andy.
Nov 16th, 2012, 09:50 PM
Have people seen Peak Venus (2000 and 2001).....apart from Serena and PeakPierce :oh: no one can hang with her.

dsanders06
Nov 16th, 2012, 09:52 PM
WTF are you talking about, Venus and Serena's defense/movement are a huge part of their success. And, watch the match between Venus and Monica at the YEC that same year, Venus was running down everything.

No, she wasn't.

Atleast you've changed from the last time we discussed their AO match though, when you were trying to claim Venus won the majority of long rallies against Seles in that match :haha: :tape:

TheDream
Nov 16th, 2012, 09:56 PM
No, she wasn't.

Atleast you've changed from the last time we discussed their AO match though, when you were trying to claim Venus won the majority of long rallies against Seles in that match :haha: :tape:

I never said that. Never, ever, ever. You just had the audacity to say Venus had poor defense. You even said Serena has bad defense. Even at 31, with 2 surgeries on her legs, nobody moves better and it's not even close.

Kasey
Nov 16th, 2012, 10:04 PM
The Guardians of the Shrieking Razor should concede defeat. Their fave is losing another poll by a big margin.

Andy.
Nov 16th, 2012, 10:07 PM
The Guardians of the Shrieking Razor should concede defeat. Their fave is losing another poll by a big margin.

Your such a childish mess.

Mr.Sharapova
Nov 16th, 2012, 10:51 PM
I would definitely give the edge on grass to Venus. She's an incredible athlete and at her peak she runs everything down on that surface, her match against Masha and Kuzzy at Wimbledon 2007 best shows what I'm saying. However, on clay it's a completely different story. We've seen Maria's peak form on clay this year and with that sort of form Venus would not be able to match her.

End da Game
Nov 16th, 2012, 10:57 PM
didn't we see this matchup at wimbly 2005 semi-final?

venus won in 2 sets

Tag
Nov 16th, 2012, 11:04 PM
peak venus

sharapova is all serve and grunt

venus might be immobile these days, but she is borderline retired

she used to be amazing, especially on grass :hearts:

dsanders06
Nov 16th, 2012, 11:06 PM
didn't we see this matchup at wimbly 2005 semi-final?

venus won in 2 sets

Yes, ON GRASS. Noone disputes Venus would beat Peak Maria on grass. But that doesn't say anything about a peak-v-peak match-up on other surfaces.

Charlatan
Nov 17th, 2012, 12:12 AM
:yawn: How original

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=450515

Matt01
Nov 17th, 2012, 12:38 AM
I never said that. Never, ever, ever. You just had the audacity to say Venus had poor defense. You even said Serena has bad defense. Even at 31, with 2 surgeries on her legs, nobody moves better and it's not even close.


:tape: :lol:

dsanders06
Nov 17th, 2012, 12:40 AM
:tape: :lol:

They're in a world of their own. This poster genuinely tried to claim Serena wins the long rallies in her matches against Azarenka :lol: Don't bother trying to reason with it.

TheDream
Nov 17th, 2012, 12:42 AM
:tape: :lol:

Who moves better than Serena?

Matt01
Nov 17th, 2012, 12:46 AM
^ Almost any player. Maybe you missed it but her movement has regressed in the last couple of years. Wake up it's not 2002 anymore.

TheDream
Nov 17th, 2012, 12:56 AM
^ I never said it hasn't regressed but who moves better? I can't think of anyone, even with Serena well past her physical prime. Kvitova? Sharapova? Azarenka? Stosur? Li? Radwanska? Serena's movement and explosiveness and defense to offense is better than any of them and it's not even close. Says more about the athletes on the women's side more than anything though.

swissmr
Nov 17th, 2012, 01:09 AM
^ Almost any player. Maybe you missed it but her movement has regressed in the last couple of years. Wake up it's not 2002 anymore.

You might be able to make a case if you meant footwork, but in terms of pure foot speed Serena is still very much up at the top, even if she's not as fast as she used to be.

TheLegendof
Nov 17th, 2012, 01:48 AM
You might be able to make a case if you meant footwork, but in terms of pure foot speed Serena is still very much up at the top, even if she's not as fast as she used to be.

Yes, I agree with this. Perhaps he was talking about footwork. To me, though, Serena is still the best mover in the top 10, but her footwork (only at times) can take away from it.

Oh, and I think Venus would win peak to peak. Every shot of hers (at peak) beats Sharapova except the forehand (maybe). Even Venus' second serve was quite impressive at her peak, she had a MUCH cleaner motion before she was injured and changed it.

sweetadri06
Nov 17th, 2012, 01:59 AM
You might be able to make a case if you meant footwork, but in terms of pure foot speed Serena is still very much up at the top, even if she's not as fast as she used to be.

This^ Serena is the fastest in the top 10 besides Wozniacki.

Lachy
Nov 17th, 2012, 02:17 AM
I would definitely say it goes three sets. I think Venus edges it. Her athleticism at her peak was astonishing. Best explosive court coverage really.

Brad[le]y.
Nov 17th, 2012, 02:22 AM
Both have great ballstriking ability at their peaks. Martha is much more consistent off the ground at her peak but Venus has much better movement/athleticism.

I'd say Venus in 3.

Craig.
Nov 17th, 2012, 02:26 AM
Thought I'd join the 'Peak' hype.

I actually think Maria wins this one....

WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY?! :sobbing:

SilverSlam
Nov 17th, 2012, 02:54 AM
I think that 05 Wimbledon match was as good as they're ever going to play each other. It was a great match, and both had their chances. Venus took them and won in two incredibly close and not so close sets.


Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App (http://www.verticalsports.com/mobile)

ExXotikal
Nov 17th, 2012, 03:14 AM
It's very simple.
Naps on fast surfaces, Maria on slow courts.
If peak Napnus was struggling to wins over the Davenports on slow HC, I see no reason she's supposed to bully Davenport's better version in Pova.

PetraReeMona
Nov 17th, 2012, 03:19 AM
Yes, I agree with this. Perhaps he was talking about footwork. To me, though, Serena is still the best mover in the top 10, but her footwork (only at times) can take away from it.

Oh, and I think Venus would win peak to peak. Every shot of hers (at peak) beats Sharapova except the forehand (maybe). Even Venus' second serve was quite impressive at her peak, she had a MUCH cleaner motion before she was injured and changed it.

What I find amazing is... even with Serena's poor movement and footwork, she still gives Pova a massive beatdown :rolls: :spit:

Can't be bad. :bounce:

Peak Venus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Peak Pova

The End!

blackandblue
Nov 17th, 2012, 03:20 AM
^ Almost any player. Maybe you missed it but her movement has regressed in the last couple of years. Wake up it's not 2002 anymore.

"Almost anyone" in this instance not including the top two ranked players, right? Or are you arguing that either Azarenka or Sharapova moves better?

hablo
Nov 17th, 2012, 03:29 AM
Venus. No doubt.

jaredlikesbieber
Nov 17th, 2012, 04:01 AM
venus.

forehand27
Nov 17th, 2012, 06:13 AM
It's very simple.
Naps on fast surfaces, Maria on slow courts.
If peak Napnus was struggling to wins over the Davenports on slow HC, I see no reason she's supposed to bully Davenport's better version in Pova.

It seems there is a wide variety of opinions to how Sharapova compares to Davenport as players. If I hadnt started too many peak threads already that would have been my next one.

IMO peak Davenport (98-2000) > peak Sharapova (2004-2006) but I understand that is one people could easily argue either way.

égalité
Nov 17th, 2012, 06:44 AM
if she is so good on all surfaces, why it happened so that she's never won RG and AO? and won less Tier 1 than Sharapova in shorter career?

the only one explanation is that she is not that good outside fast surfaces

IDK she was probably too busy winning Wimbledon 5 times.

Venus 6-0 6-0 except maybe at RG where cow on ice goat on clay Sharapova wins in 3.

Kasey
Nov 17th, 2012, 08:19 AM
Your such a childish mess.

Ok, now please tell me which tower in the Siberian Kingdom do you guard?

doomsday
Nov 17th, 2012, 08:26 AM
Venus on fast HC, grass.
Maria, clay and slow HC.
Period.

bandabou
Nov 17th, 2012, 10:46 AM
They're in a world of their own. This poster genuinely tried to claim Serena wins the long rallies in her matches against Azarenka :lol: Don't bother trying to reason with it.

And Sharapova does win the long rallies against Azarenka?! :shrug:
Difference is Serena CAN end the points quickly against Vika, unlike Masha..:lol:

Monzanator
Nov 17th, 2012, 11:43 AM
As usual in every Sharapova thread, Azarenka and Kvitova fanboys are trying to stay relevant :lol:

Back on topic, Peak Venus >>>> Peak Sharapova :dance:

Dodoboy.
Nov 17th, 2012, 01:44 PM
It's very simple.
Naps on fast surfaces, Maria on slow courts.
If peak Napnus was struggling to wins over the Davenports on slow HC, I see no reason she's supposed to bully Davenport's better version in Pova.

Think about what you just said sis.

azinna
Nov 17th, 2012, 01:51 PM
Again, knee injuries are irrelevant because Venus's defence has never been an asset :lol: .....

What? Perhaps there's a typo or missing word.

....

bandabou
Nov 17th, 2012, 02:48 PM
:rolls: at people still trotting out Peak Venus's supposedly great movement. Even though she had great raw athleticism, her defence was always extremely inefficient due to her bad anticipation and very low tennis IQ. Maria won the majority of extended rallies in all her non-grass matches against Venus.

Peak Venus wins on grass and quick hardcourts, Maria wins on slow hardcourts and clay. Maria would've been able to get hold of Venus's serve on slower surfaces and probably manage to scrape back most of Venus's first strikes in a rally, and then Maria's superior and less error-prone groundgame would do the rest of the work :shrug:


It's too bad you didn't post in the peak Serena vs peak Maria thread...it'd been interesting to read your thoughts about THAT match-up.

BlueTrees
Nov 17th, 2012, 02:53 PM
Sharapova wins at Australian Open and Roland Garros, Venus wins at Wimbledon and US Open :shrug:

dsanders06
Nov 17th, 2012, 02:57 PM
Think about what you just said sis.

So Venus is better than Maria because she has more Slams, yet Slam counts go out the window when it comes to comparing Maria to Davenport :lol:

Willytards' logic :worship:

What? Perhaps there's a typo or missing word.

....

Nope. As I always say when these discussions come up, if defensive abilities were just about who could sprint the fastest then James Blake would be regarded as one of the best defensive players in the history of the ATP - when in reality, despite how quick Blake was at sprinting from A to B, you were virtually guaranteed to win the point if you got him on the defensive - just like Venus (albeit to a slightly lesser extent).

Venus simply never had any clue how to play smart defence -- she'd go for winners even when stretched out wide, which resulted in a spectacular winner approximately 1 in every 10 attempts, but the other 9 times she'd either miss or she'd counter-intuitively be punished by hitting such a fast-paced shot, because it wouldn't give her enough time to get back into the middle of the baseline and her opponent would be able to hit to the other side before Venus could get there.

Maria on clay this year, even though her raw footspeed was a shadow of Peak Venus's footspeed, played just as efficient/effective defence as Venus has at any point in her career, because she actually anticipated her opponent's plays better and played much smarter defensive shots (mid-paced shots to a good length which gave her enough time to get back to the middle of the baseline and didn't give her opponent an easy putaway) than Venus has at any point in her career. I'd estimate Claypova this year won a similar percentage of rallies from when she was in defensive positions as Venus did (i.e. a small percentage). Again, it's no surprise that some of Venus's best matches have come when she's had knee injuries - because she has always lived and died by the strength of her serve and ballstriking, and her movement has always been irrelevant because it's never won her her matches at any point in her career.

ExXotikal
Nov 17th, 2012, 03:01 PM
Think about what you just said sis.

How outrageous is it to say Maria is a better version of Davenport when she leads the H2H, has more GS, a career GS, and beat the players Davenport couldn't beat/was winning GS during the same span time when both were at their peak? You all kill me. Davenport has only 3 GS.

It's too bad you didn't post in the peak Serena vs peak Maria thread...it'd been interesting to read your thoughts about THAT match-up.

He was true though, Naps had great footspeed 3 slaves trades ago but always defended like a dummy: no use of the slice, predictable patterns. This is why Serena always was a much better defender than that flop.

Michael!
Nov 17th, 2012, 03:17 PM
Those who voted for Peak Maria should tell me what she can do better than Peak Venus! :oh:

Slutiana
Nov 17th, 2012, 04:05 PM
So Venus is better than Maria because she has more Slams, yet Slam counts go out the window when it comes to comparing Maria to Davenport :lol:

Willytards' logic :worship:



Nope. As I always say when these discussions come up, if defensive abilities were just about who could sprint the fastest then James Blake would be regarded as one of the best defensive players in the history of the ATP - when in reality, despite how quick Blake was at sprinting from A to B, you were virtually guaranteed to win the point if you got him on the defensive - just like Venus (albeit to a slightly lesser extent).

Venus simply never had any clue how to play smart defence -- she'd go for winners even when stretched out wide, which resulted in a spectacular winner approximately 1 in every 10 attempts, but the other 9 times she'd either miss or she'd counter-intuitively be punished by hitting such a fast-paced shot, because it wouldn't give her enough time to get back into the middle of the baseline and her opponent would be able to hit to the other side before Venus could get there.

Maria on clay this year, even though her raw footspeed was a shadow of Peak Venus's footspeed, played just as efficient/effective defence as Venus has at any point in her career, because she actually anticipated her opponent's plays better and played much smarter defensive shots (mid-paced shots to a good length which gave her enough time to get back to the middle of the baseline and didn't give her opponent an easy putaway) than Venus has at any point in her career. I'd estimate Claypova this year won a similar percentage of rallies from when she was in defensive positions as Venus did (i.e. a small percentage). Again, it's no surprise that some of Venus's best matches have come when she's had knee injuries - because she has always lived and died by the strength of her serve and ballstriking, and her movement has always been irrelevant because it's never won her her matches at any point in her career.
:lol: Hilarious.

Matt01
Nov 17th, 2012, 04:07 PM
"Almost anyone" in this instance not including the top two ranked players, right? Or are you arguing that either Azarenka or Sharapova moves better?


Azarenka yes, Sharapova no.

forehand27
Nov 17th, 2012, 04:10 PM
Venus's game isnt really about defense. She is one of the most explosive offensive players in history. At her peak she hit the hardest serves, hardest return of serves, some of the hardest ever groundstrokes off both sides, explosive volleys and overheads. She didnt need to defend much. Still it is not like the slow Maria is a better defensive player, that is for sure. Even if you understand how to play defense you still need a certain amount of speed to pull it off.

HippityHop
Nov 17th, 2012, 04:16 PM
I think that 05 Wimbledon match was as good as they're ever going to play each other. It was a great match, and both had their chances. Venus took them and won in two incredibly close and not so close sets.


Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App (http://www.verticalsports.com/mobile)

And Venus still had her syndrome then. It just was not as far advanced and she didn't know what it was.

forehand27
Nov 17th, 2012, 04:19 PM
So Venus is better than Maria because she has more Slams, yet Slam counts go out the window when it comes to comparing Maria to Davenport :lol:


Well a person can be aruged better than one with only 1 more slam. A person cant really be argued better than one with 3 more slams and almost double what you have. It is just like nobody could argue Clijsters as being better than Henin either, or Sanchez as being better than Goolagong. Slams are most important but there are other considerations but if someone totally owns you in slam wins the discussion is over.

That said this is a peak thread, not a thread about overall greatness, so I guess anything goes. If one can argue peak Pierce is better than peak Graf and peak Serena, than one can argue anything in a peak thread I guess, even peak Tanasugarn being better than peak Navratilova if they wish.

dsanders06
Nov 17th, 2012, 04:22 PM
Those who voted for Peak Maria should tell me what she can do better than Peak Venus! :oh:

Maria's forehand better in every way, her backhand while not as deadly on the first strike is much more consistent both in terms of lack of errors and length on her shots. :)

:lol: Hilarious.

Are you going to claim Venus is a tactically smart player again? I've been waiting for one of her delusional stans to claim it ever since this thread appeared :lol:

TheDream
Nov 17th, 2012, 04:25 PM
So Venus is better than Maria because she has more Slams, yet Slam counts go out the window when it comes to comparing Maria to Davenport :lol:

Willytards' logic :worship:



Nope. As I always say when these discussions come up, if defensive abilities were just about who could sprint the fastest then James Blake would be regarded as one of the best defensive players in the history of the ATP - when in reality, despite how quick Blake was at sprinting from A to B, you were virtually guaranteed to win the point if you got him on the defensive - just like Venus (albeit to a slightly lesser extent).

Venus simply never had any clue how to play smart defence -- she'd go for winners even when stretched out wide, which resulted in a spectacular winner approximately 1 in every 10 attempts, but the other 9 times she'd either miss or she'd counter-intuitively be punished by hitting such a fast-paced shot, because it wouldn't give her enough time to get back into the middle of the baseline and her opponent would be able to hit to the other side before Venus could get there.

Maria on clay this year, even though her raw footspeed was a shadow of Peak Venus's footspeed, played just as efficient/effective defence as Venus has at any point in her career, because she actually anticipated her opponent's plays better and played much smarter defensive shots (mid-paced shots to a good length which gave her enough time to get back to the middle of the baseline and didn't give her opponent an easy putaway) than Venus has at any point in her career. I'd estimate Claypova this year won a similar percentage of rallies from when she was in defensive positions as Venus did (i.e. a small percentage). Again, it's no surprise that some of Venus's best matches have come when she's had knee injuries - because she has always lived and died by the strength of her serve and ballstriking, and her movement has always been irrelevant because it's never won her her matches at any point in her career.


Stop the conjecture. You know nothing about tennis. :lol:

TheDream
Nov 17th, 2012, 04:26 PM
Azarenka yes, Sharapova no.

Are you actually deluding yourself that Vika moves better than Serena? :scared: It's not even close, Serena would run circles around Vika.

forehand27
Nov 17th, 2012, 04:28 PM
Off the top of my head I cant think of anything Azarenka does better than even current Serena, but then again she was a point from taking record # of aces Serena to a 3rd set at Wimbledon, and nearly beat her at the U.S Open, so there must be something she has the edge in.

Matt01
Nov 17th, 2012, 04:34 PM
Are you actually deluding yourself that Vika moves better than Serena? :scared: It's not even close, Serena would run circles around Vika.


:bs:

TheDream
Nov 17th, 2012, 04:54 PM
:bs:

You should be using that on yourself troll, to even intimate that Azarenka moves better than Serena. :rolleyes:

bandabou
Nov 17th, 2012, 04:55 PM
Are you going to claim Venus is a tactically smart player again? I've been waiting for one of her delusional stans to claim it ever since this thread appeared :lol:

And Maria's some tactical genius?! If she was, she'd have figure out how to beat Vika more often than not (even on HC) by now. :lol:

Lilowannabe
Nov 17th, 2012, 04:58 PM
Are you going to claim Venus is a tactically smart player again? I've been waiting for one of her delusional stans to claim it ever since this thread appeared :lol:

No Maria is most defo the smarter player tactically, she's had to be even at her peak. Peak Venus was all instinct, see ball hit ball!! I disagree with you though about Venus being a poor defensive player. She's probably the fastest woman I've ever seen play tennis and her retrieving ability alone put huge pressure on opponents to overhit!! For me the only thing that separated them in that fantastic 05 Wimbledon match was Venus better defence.

ExXotikal
Nov 17th, 2012, 04:58 PM
:bs:

You are spitting nonsense, stop it already. I almost think you are trolling.

Lilowannabe
Nov 17th, 2012, 05:03 PM
:bs:

Come on, it's not even opinion based, it's fact that Serena's faster than VIka.
Better mover, well now there's a case as VIka has better footwork and anticipation, but even an aged Serena's raw foot speed>vikas

bandabou
Nov 17th, 2012, 05:03 PM
Azarenka yes, Sharapova no.

why are you like this, Matty?! Constantly dissing Serena like this...now you saying that almost anybody ( save Maria, I guess?) moves better than her.

The other day also you had some other stupid comment. Are you having such a hard time dealing with Juju's retirement and Caroline Wozniacki's fall from the spotlights?! :shrug:

ExXotikal
Nov 17th, 2012, 05:22 PM
why are you like this, Matty?! Constantly dissing Serena like this...now you saying that almost anybody ( save Maria, I guess?) moves better than her.

The other day also you had some other stupid comment. Are you having such a hard time dealing with Juju's retirement and Caroline Wozniacki's fall from the spotlights?! :shrug:

He's such a troll, always glorifying the lesser gerls over the relevant ones. Bless his heart. :lol:

azinna
Nov 17th, 2012, 05:22 PM
....Venus simply never had any clue how to play smart defence -- she'd go for winners even when stretched out wide, which resulted in a spectacular winner approximately 1 in every 10 attempts, but the other 9 times she'd either miss or she'd counter-intuitively be punished by hitting such a fast-paced shot, because it wouldn't give her enough time to get back into the middle of the baseline and her opponent would be able to hit to the other side before Venus could get there.

Maria on clay this year, even though her raw footspeed was a shadow of Peak Venus's footspeed, played just as efficient/effective defence as Venus has at any point in her career, because she actually anticipated her opponent's plays better and played much smarter defensive shots (mid-paced shots to a good length which gave her enough time to get back to the middle of the baseline and didn't give her opponent an easy putaway) than Venus has at any point in her career....and her movement has always been irrelevant because it's never won her her matches at any point in her career.

You're describing good but not great Venus and comparing her to a recent Maria, who is just learning how to do what Venus was regularly doing in 2000-03 and sporadically in '05, '07 and '08.

I think you need to closely re-watch (or watch) matches of Venus in slam-winning form. Full matches, not the highlights. It was her spectacular defense -- those balls repeatedly sent back with just enough spin to dip before the baseline -- that put nail to coffin in her matches against Lindsay, Monica, Mary and yes Maria. That end of the first set and the entire second set of their Wimbledon '05 match was about Venus' defense wearing Maria down.

ZP7DDNFIh8Q&feature=relmfu

....

V.e.s.W
Nov 17th, 2012, 06:03 PM
No Maria is most defo the smarter player tactically, she's had to be even at her peak. Peak Venus was all instinct, see ball hit ball!! I disagree with you though about Venus being a poor defensive player. She's probably the fastest woman I've ever seen play tennis and her retrieving ability alone put huge pressure on opponents to overhit!! For me the only thing that separated them in that fantastic 05 Wimbledon match was Venus better defence.

I don't agree with you here :) It was not Venus' defense that separated them, it was her much better offense and better serving. You should watch the whole match and you will see what I am talking about :)


PS I am tempted to add that this first set should have been 6:3:angel:

MegaDethly
Nov 17th, 2012, 06:04 PM
The Guardians of the Shrieking Razor should concede defeat. Their fave is losing another poll by a big margin.

This post made my hair tingle for some reason. Probably because it's such TRUTH.

doomsday
Nov 17th, 2012, 06:11 PM
I don't agree with you here :) It was not Venus' defense that separated them, it was her much better offense and better serving. You should watch the whole match and you will see what I am talking about :)


PS I am tempted to add that this first set should have been 6:3:angel:

And Venus shouldn't have won Wimbledon that year.

V.e.s.W
Nov 17th, 2012, 06:14 PM
And Venus shouldn't have won Wimbledon that year.

But Maria would have still lost ;)

Leo St
Nov 17th, 2012, 06:29 PM
i think venus wins on hard and grass but i just love what sharapova produced at roland garros this year.. so who knows

d., youre cute with your little facts and everyhing but venus defending bad? just no

she may be stubborn abot change tathics in the middle of the match but still when shes playing defense, she can be a pain in the ass for the attacker.. the thing is, thats not her game.. defending wont make her win matches, even she knows that

sweetpeas
Nov 17th, 2012, 06:33 PM
Venus no doubt!!!!!!

Mistress of Evil
Nov 17th, 2012, 07:19 PM
Mr Bitchell'd better do not come in here because it will get ugly if he does.

forehand27
Nov 17th, 2012, 07:24 PM
And Maria's some tactical genius?! If she was, she'd have figure out how to beat Vika more often than not (even on HC) by now. :lol:

Maria has no tactics. She just goes out and hits the ball. She may have improved how to play defense some, and think about doing it, but that isnt exactly what I call tactical know how. We see that in her matches with Serena especialy. Granted Serena is the much better player and a bad matchup for her, so there is probably no good solution for that. However Maria doesnt even try anything new. She just tried the same thing every single time, outslugging Serena from the baseline, and gets clobbered each time doing so. If she had any tactics at all she would atleast try something different, even make some subtle adjustments but none. That is also why other people who are bad matchups for her or she has trouble beating like Azarenka, Henin, Mauresmo, she pretty much just keeps losing to unless she has an "in zone" day, or they have an off day, or both.

doomsday
Nov 17th, 2012, 07:40 PM
Maria has no tactics. She just goes out and hits the ball. She may have improved how to play defense some, and think about doing it, but that isnt exactly what I call tactical know how. We see that in her matches with Serena especialy. Granted Serena is the much better player and a bad matchup for her, so there is probably no good solution for that. However Maria doesnt even try anything new. She just tried the same thing every single time, outslugging Serena from the baseline, and gets clobbered each time doing so. If she had any tactics at all she would atleast try something different, even make some subtle adjustments but none. That is also why other people who are bad matchups for her or she has trouble beating like Azarenka, Henin, Mauresmo, she pretty much just keeps losing to unless she has an "in zone" day, or they have an off day, or both.

Who the hell are you? :lol: Don't answer that I already know.
Maria doesn't go out and hit the ball and pray for the win, like you mentioned players like Mauresmo, Henin, Clijsters were players who were really forcing Maria to add a lot more things in her game to beat them. I suggest you to watch her last matches over Henin, Clijsters and even Mauresmo to realize that Maria despite hitting very hard she was very aware of what she was doing. She figured most of them between 2006 and 2008 by adding a lot more things in her game (OZ 2008 is a perfect example, she dismantled Henin in every possible way and not just by hitting hard) their very last match in French Open was also a great match tactically by Maria, I remember Clijsters praising Maria's match against Henin at the French and saying the very same words such as Maria improving her game over the years that there was a time she was just trying to overpower players but that now she really became a lot more complete.

Lilowannabe
Nov 17th, 2012, 07:54 PM
Who the hell are you? :lol: Don't answer that I already know.
Maria doesn't go out and hit the ball and pray for the win, like you mentioned players like Mauresmo, Henin, Clijsters were players who were really forcing Maria to add a lot more things in her game to beat them. I suggest you to watch her last matches over Henin, Clijsters and even Mauresmo to realize that Maria despite hitting very hard she was very aware of what she was doing. She figured most of them between 2006 and 2008 by adding a lot more things in her game (OZ 2008 is a perfect example, she dismantled Henin in every possible way and not just by hitting hard) their very last match in French Open was also a great match tactically by Maria, I remember Clijsters praising Maria's match against Henin at the French and saying the very same words such as Maria improving her game over the years that there was a time she was just trying to overpower players but that now she really became a lot more complete.

I'd add to this that Maria is well known to research her opponents before matches. She doesn't possess the skill set of a Henin, but she produces the best from what she has and is adaptable in changing her plan of attack.

As for the Serena, I think it's partly match-up issues and partly because Serena brings her A-game. And everyone knows rena's A-game > wta.

NashaMasha
Nov 17th, 2012, 07:54 PM
Maria has no tactics. She just goes out and hits the ball. She may have improved how to play defense some, and think about doing it, but that isnt exactly what I call tactical know how. We see that in her matches with Serena especialy. Granted Serena is the much better player and a bad matchup for her, so there is probably no good solution for that. However Maria doesnt even try anything new. She just tried the same thing every single time, outslugging Serena from the baseline, and gets clobbered each time doing so. If she had any tactics at all she would atleast try something different, even make some subtle adjustments but none. That is also why other people who are bad matchups for her or she has trouble beating like Azarenka, Henin, Mauresmo, she pretty much just keeps losing to unless she has an "in zone" day, or they have an off day, or both.

pls answer : who can be competitive with Serena of Olympics and Istanbul Final? Nobody can return back her aces and almost nobody has big and reliable serve which can save from being broken with a help of her fierce ROS?

Sharapova now has unrealibale serve, and is gifting even to scrubs in early rounds at least one game on her serve. What is more after shoulder injury still can't serve wide in Ad-court, it makes her serve predictable. Of course it decreases her chances vs players with best ROS.

Justin SW
Nov 17th, 2012, 08:13 PM
Thought I'd join the 'Peak' hype.

I actually think Maria wins this one....

then you must be on drugs

doomsday
Nov 17th, 2012, 08:18 PM
I'd add to this that Maria is well known to research her opponents before matches. She doesn't possess the skill set of a Henin, but she produces the best from what she has and is adaptable in changing her plan of attack.

As for the Serena, I think it's partly match-up issues and partly because Serena brings her A-game. And everyone knows rena's A-game > wta.

Indeed and to beat Serena she would have to defend or use variety like Henin but she can't do that.

Maria's H2H against all players is quite respectable the only pain in the ass for her is Serena and when we know how well Serena plays against her every single time, there isn't much to do. Maria is one of the best returners out there but Serena just serves way too well and even more against her, she reduces Maria's chances like noone else even in YEC final as soon as she was seeing a lil danger she was firing an ace or a great serve what could she do about that? :shrug:
I know Maria's H2H over Serena is really bad but really Serena just doesn't let her take control of anything and every time like I said the last time, I don't remember Serena serving poorly against Maria in any of their matches since YEC 2004 :lol:
Serena serving and returning this well is too good for anyone and not just Maria.

bandabou
Nov 17th, 2012, 08:30 PM
Dsanders is oddly keeping very quiet in this discussion about Serena vs Maria.

Specially when he's having such a big mouth talking about Vee not being smart, not being good at defense, yada yada..:lol:

Matt01
Nov 17th, 2012, 08:49 PM
why are you like this, Matty?! Constantly dissing Serena like this...now you saying that almost anybody ( save Maria, I guess?) moves better than her.



And where were you when your fellow Serena fan claimed that Serena has the best movement of anyone (which she obviously hasn't)? I'm sorry but just because your fave has currently the most Slams of the active players doesn't mean that she is the best in everything. And saying that Serena does one thing worse than Maria and one thing worse than Azarenka is not a diss at Serena, it's just stating the obvious. I'm really sorry that you are such an oversensitive stan.

Matt01
Nov 17th, 2012, 08:58 PM
I'd add to this that Maria is well known to research her opponents before matches. She doesn't possess the skill set of a Henin, but she produces the best from what she has and is adaptable in changing her plan of attack.


No, she isn't adaptable since she always plays the same one-dimensional ball bashing game. She can't volley, she can't slice, she can't moonball (but to her credit she has learned how to slide and defend on clay) which is also why she is pretty much a hopeless case when players like Serena, Azarenka or Henin are playing well which the H2H shows.

Now as for the comparison with Venus: Her advantage in this match-up is that Venus has poor technique on her serve and forehand which makes her less consistant than Pova. On grass Venus would bash Pova off the court but on all other surfaces I'd give Pova the edge.

bandabou
Nov 17th, 2012, 09:10 PM
And where were you when your fellow Serena fan claimed that Serena has the best movement of anyone (which she obviously hasn't)? I'm sorry but just because your fave has currently the most Slams of the active players doesn't mean that she is the best in everything. And saying that Serena does one thing worse than Maria and one thing worse than Azarenka is not a diss at Serena, it's just stating the obvious. I'm really sorry that you are such an oversensitive stan.

That isn't what you said. You act like ONLY Masha's the worst mover than Serena, so don't go play funny now.

Anyways, we know where you're coming from..so it's good. :lol:

forehand27
Nov 17th, 2012, 09:21 PM
Serena doesnt move as well as her peak and if a Henin or Clijsters or younger Venus were playing today she probably wouldnt be the best mover anymore, but amongst who actually is there, she is the best mover out there today even at 31 I agree. Azarenka is not a better mover, she actually is only a fairly good mover, but her anticipation helps her alot, and her overall defense is very good. If one wants to argue anyone is moving better than Serena today it would be someone like Wozniacki or Radwanska, not Azarenka. In fact peak Wozniacki 2010-2011 is a way better mover and defender than Azarenka, and I am no Wozniacki fan.

Matt01
Nov 17th, 2012, 09:51 PM
E.g. Radwanska and Kerber among the Top 10 are better movers and defenders than Serena for sure.

forehand27
Nov 17th, 2012, 09:52 PM
Radwanska could be, but Radwanska is a much better mover than Azarenka as well anyway. I hate watching Kerber and her slouchy handgog look, constant pouting and whiny demeanor, and so turn the TV off minutes into any of her matches, so I cant say for sure on her. She is a good mover though.

TPlaya8
Nov 17th, 2012, 09:57 PM
Everyone talks about Venus not being a tactical player I disagree. she has displayed awesome tactics at times in her career. With her angles and then coming into net. Knowing when to hit the drop volley, a regular volley, or swinging volley. Her serves into the body and then attacking jamming opponents. when she use to hit behind opponents and if you even look at her matches from Luxembourg she was trying out new tactics that she hasn't been playing with.


And everyone always mentions Venus losing record against Maria on hardcourt. Well only 3 of those matches were outdoor hardcourt and one indoor court. 2004 Zurich yea maria beat Venus don't have anything to say about that except alot of people beat Venus in 2004. 2005 miami again maria played well can't say anything about that,

but that 2007 match was Venus' 2nd tournament back after being out for about 6 months and she retired from that tournament and had not played since Wimbledon 2006 before that which was only about 7 tournaments in over a year and she still took Maria to 3 sets in Miami.

If you always want to put an asterisk on Venus '09 win then put one on Maria's win.

Venus also played Maria decently in Rome this year, (Maria's best year on clay and Venus' first year coming back from Sjrogrens) I'm pretty sure even the clay tennis Venus played in 2010 and 2009 would have really made a match with Marai let alone 2000-2003 Venus

TPlaya8
Nov 17th, 2012, 09:59 PM
And sometimes I think people forget that 18 year Sharapova at 2005 Wimbeldon was considered maybe the best player in the world (ranked 2nd) and was defintely considered the best grass court player in that span. (All the commentators and experts declared it) and Venus took it to maria that day and withstood everything she had!

bandabou
Nov 17th, 2012, 10:35 PM
E.g. Radwanska and Kerber among the Top 10 are better movers and defenders than Serena for sure.

Yeah, so?! Serena does everything else soooo much better than both of them, that whatever edge they might have in defense...doesn't make a difference. :wavey:

HaplessPossum
Nov 17th, 2012, 10:42 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpkRM4NcygI

Watch the shots at 1:55 and 5:12 to see how good Venus' defence really is.

dsanders06
Nov 17th, 2012, 10:48 PM
Maria has no tactics. She just goes out and hits the ball. She may have improved how to play defense some, and think about doing it, but that isnt exactly what I call tactical know how. We see that in her matches with Serena especialy. Granted Serena is the much better player and a bad matchup for her, so there is probably no good solution for that. However Maria doesnt even try anything new. She just tried the same thing every single time, outslugging Serena from the baseline, and gets clobbered each time doing so. If she had any tactics at all she would atleast try something different, even make some subtle adjustments but none. That is also why other people who are bad matchups for her or she has trouble beating like Azarenka, Henin, Mauresmo, she pretty much just keeps losing to unless she has an "in zone" day, or they have an off day, or both.

I should say that I think there's a distinction between being good at devising strategies, and "court sense" (admittedly I was using them interchangeably earlier in the thread, so that's my bad) -- court sense is what makes a good defensive player, and that's more innate than actually being a good strategist. For example, Wozniacki I don't think is a very good strategist seeing as she goes out there with the same old crappy gameplan against limited scrubs like Goerges and gets a beatdown everytime, but she still unquestionably has very good court sense -- she unconsciously/instinctively has a good feel for where to place the ball on the court in order to make it as awkward as possible for her opponent, and to give herself enough time to recover her positioning.

...Maria is no GOAT when it comes to court sense by any means, but what she's shown in that department over the past couple of years (especially on clay this year) is better than anything Venus has shown in her whole career.

Stonerpova
Nov 17th, 2012, 10:52 PM
Maria's so master tactician herself, but there is seriously no one more brainless than an off form Venus Williams.

Craig.
Nov 17th, 2012, 10:54 PM
Maria's so master tactician herself, but there is seriously no one more brainless than an off form Venus Williams.

The girl in your sig begs to differ.

dsanders06
Nov 17th, 2012, 11:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpkRM4NcygI

Watch the shots at 1:55 and 5:12 to see how good Venus' defence really is.

1:55 is a legitimate great shot and like I said before, approximately 1 out of 10 times she'll pull those types of shots from defensive positions off. Of course she still misses plenty of those attempts even on her best days.

But 5:12? SERIOUSLY? She LOST THE POINT! :spit: That's what we always get when people claim Venus was a great defender, videos of her running balls down but LOSING THE POINT. A better defensive player like Wozniacki might well have won that point -- that shot at 5:10, a player with good court sense wouldn't've hit it right back to her opponent and she would've hit a slower-paced loopier ball or a slice to give herself time to get back to the middle of the baseline and make it a bit awkward for her opponent. Sure she looks great when she then goes onto chase down a ball that not many players would've had the raw footspeed to get, but the point is a good intelligent defensive player wouldn't've been in the position where they had to sprint right across the baseline to get to the next shot in the first place

Stonerpova
Nov 17th, 2012, 11:04 PM
The girl in your sig begs to differ.

Touche :lol:

Lilowannabe
Nov 17th, 2012, 11:34 PM
1:55 is a legitimate great shot and like I said before, approximately 1 out of 10 times she'll pull those types of shots from defensive positions off. Of course she still misses plenty of those attempts even on her best days.

But 5:12? SERIOUSLY? She LOST THE POINT! :spit: That's what we always get when people claim Venus was a great defender, videos of her running balls down but LOSING THE POINT. A better defensive player like Wozniacki might well have won that point -- that shot at 5:10, a player with good court sense wouldn't've hit it right back to her opponent and she would've hit a slower-paced loopier ball or a slice to give herself time to get back to the middle of the baseline and make it a bit awkward for her opponent. Sure she looks great when she then goes onto chase down a ball that not many players would've had the raw footspeed to get, but the point is a good intelligent defensive player wouldn't've been in the position where they had to sprint right across the baseline to get to the next shot in the first place

I think I'd agree with you in that Venus has never had a great defensive game, her mindset is offensive even when she's not dictating the point!! But at the best, her retrieving was insane, so unbelievable that great offensive players couldn't hit through her. It may not be smart defense, but it' was effective!!

effedcamel
Nov 18th, 2012, 12:00 AM
1:55 is a legitimate great shot and like I said before, approximately 1 out of 10 times she'll pull those types of shots from defensive positions off. Of course she still misses plenty of those attempts even on her best days.

But 5:12? SERIOUSLY? She LOST THE POINT! :spit: That's what we always get when people claim Venus was a great defender, videos of her running balls down but LOSING THE POINT. A better defensive player like Wozniacki might well have won that point -- that shot at 5:10, a player with good court sense wouldn't've hit it right back to her opponent and she would've hit a slower-paced loopier ball or a slice to give herself time to get back to the middle of the baseline and make it a bit awkward for her opponent. Sure she looks great when she then goes onto chase down a ball that not many players would've had the raw footspeed to get, but the point is a good intelligent defensive player wouldn't've been in the position where they had to sprint right across the baseline to get to the next shot in the first place

that shot at 1:55...I'd like to see any great defensive player replicate that shot with that type of swing/motion more than once in a match :lol:

referencing 5:12 is like referencing one of those fail left-handed lobs Maria will hit and calling that good defense :help:

azinna
Nov 18th, 2012, 12:16 AM
...But 5:12? SERIOUSLY? She LOST THE POINT! :spit: That's what we always get when people claim Venus was a great defender, videos of her running balls down but LOSING THE POINT. A better defensive player...

Well, that earlier clip of the Maria-Venus Wmbledon '05 semi was chockfull of consistently and potently successful defense from Venus. As is the Venus-Lindsay US Open '00 final below

SRiepUOYyPs&feature=relmfu

atennisfanid
Nov 18th, 2012, 12:32 AM
Venus obviously.

I saw that Wimbledon match where peak Venus smacked balls at peak Pova.

iWill
Nov 18th, 2012, 12:34 AM
Why is this still being debated? The poll clearly shows what people think can we end this one please its really a bad look...

Leo St
Nov 18th, 2012, 12:35 AM
1:55 is a legitimate great shot and like I said before, approximately 1 out of 10 times she'll pull those types of shots from defensive positions off. Of course she still misses plenty of those attempts even on her best days.

But 5:12? SERIOUSLY? She LOST THE POINT! :spit: That's what we always get when people claim Venus was a great defender, videos of her running balls down but LOSING THE POINT. A better defensive player like Wozniacki might well have won that point -- that shot at 5:10, a player with good court sense wouldn't've hit it right back to her opponent and she would've hit a slower-paced loopier ball or a slice to give herself time to get back to the middle of the baseline and make it a bit awkward for her opponent. Sure she looks great when she then goes onto chase down a ball that not many players would've had the raw footspeed to get, but the point is a good intelligent defensive player wouldn't've been in the position where they had to sprint right across the baseline to get to the next shot in the first place

first, to say shell miss 9/10 is false, simple as that.. throughout her carreer, thats her shot. the backhand on the run.. she can hit it dtl or crosscourt with a supreme angle.. you can say she wouldnt get it right all the time but 1/10? she would be slamless with those odds, youre talking about a legend.. but i get that we tend to exagerate just to show a point.. if that was it, ok.

second, i agree with you. venus can chase many balls but she wont produce good shots when shes simply defending. her defense, to be efficient, needs to be counter striking. thats the defensive game she mastered in 2000-03, hitting passing shots at will when she was almost out of the picture..
it happens that since shes essencially an attacker, shed get lost when just defending because she doesnt have that mindset to force an error like wozniacki has..

dsanders06
Nov 18th, 2012, 12:37 AM
Well, that earlier clip of the Maria-Venus Wmbledon '05 semi was chockfull of consistently and potently successful defense from Venus. As is the Venus-Lindsay US Open '00 final below

SRiepUOYyPs&feature=relmfu

Where are the numerous great defensive points in this video? :confused: I'll admit 4:23 is a rare occurrence of Venus playing a good defensive point - for once she focusses on getting the ball back to a great length rather than just trying to hit it as hard as she can. But other than that, it's her usual shit - exhibit A being 4:40, where, despite being so quick once she's off the mark, she's painfully slow to anticipate where Davenport will hit the ball to and then swipes the ball into the most predictable places.

bandabou
Nov 18th, 2012, 12:48 AM
Where are the numerous great defensive points in this video? :confused: I'll admit 4:23 is a rare occurrence of Venus playing a good defensive point - for once she focusses on getting the ball back to a great length rather than just trying to hit it as hard as she can. But other than that, it's her usual shit - exhibit A being 4:40, where, despite being so quick once she's off the mark, she's painfully slow to anticipate where Davenport will hit the ball to and then swipes the ball into the most predictable places.

Your view on defense is too basic. You're reducing it simply to what a player does once she reaches the ball.

But how about the psycholigical pressure that Vee getting to that extra ball time after time does to her opponents? You see countless times how players try to play it closer to the lines, go for too much..because they know that Vee will get to the ball otherwise?! THAT'S defense too.

forehand27
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:06 AM
Maybe the OP should have created a poll like mine and given an option for specific surfaces. Maybe if a decent number of posters gave Maria clay, or some even clay and very slow hard courts they would be thrown the bone they are searching for, but then again maybe that wouldnt be the case and they would be even more pressed, lol!

forehand27
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:07 AM
Venus must play some quality defense to beat Davenport so consistently in Venus's peak years (I think she lost to Lindsay only once in all of 2000-2003 combined) since in terms of hitting Davenport is atleast as good as even peak Venus, and in fact more consistent probably too. So that would already dispell the idea Venus couldnt play good defense IMO. The defense was the big difference in their matches that period I recall. Davenport had to hit numerous winners to win a point, while Venus against the very slow Davenport only had to hit one.

azinna
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:24 AM
Where are the numerous great defensive points in this video? :confused: I'll admit 4:23 is a rare occurrence ....

I said "As is the final." The video clip shows you the last few instances of pressure defense by Venus. But the match is chockfull of them. Click on the link to the youtube site for that match. You can start from the beginning of the second set if you wish, to save time.

Meanwhile, Forehand27 is spot on about the Lindsay-Venus matches.

And bandabou basically summarizes why Lindsay and Maria (in that Wimbledon clip you keep ignoring) were worn down by the second set:

Your view on defense is too basic. You're reducing it simply to what a player does once she reaches the ball. But how about the psycholigical pressure that Vee getting to that extra ball time after time does to her opponents? You see countless times how players try to play it closer to the lines, go for too much..because they know that Vee will get to the ball otherwise?! THAT'S defense too.

....

iWill
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:46 AM
Venus must play some quality defense to beat Davenport so consistently in Venus's peak years (I think she lost to Lindsay only once in all of 2000-2003 combined) since in terms of hitting Davenport is atleast as good as even peak Venus, and in fact more consistent probably too. So that would already dispell the idea Venus couldnt play good defense IMO. The defense was the big difference in their matches that period I recall. Davenport had to hit numerous winners to win a point, while Venus against the very slow Davenport only had to hit one.

Thank you!
:worship:

Now let's move on.

TPlaya8
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:53 AM
DpkRM4NcygI


Well This video goes against the only make it 1/10 argument while on defense.



If you watch from 00:53-1:57 just from this video Venus was on defense 4 times out of 9 points and she won 3 of them!!! 2 were her signature backhand down the lines! (Yea other players attacked Venus' forehand because it was more prone to break down but they also wanted to stay far away from that deadly backhand)

Tag
Nov 18th, 2012, 02:05 AM
bitter sharapova fans bad repping me :o

clearly can't take the fact that their goddess (lol) will never be as good on a tennis court as real legends of the game

venus is rightly regarded as a legend :worship:

sharapova is just some blonde bimbo who sleeps with sports players and launches clothing ranges while occasionally playing tennis

dsanders06
Nov 18th, 2012, 02:39 AM
Venus must play some quality defense to beat Davenport so consistently in Venus's peak years (I think she lost to Lindsay only once in all of 2000-2003 combined) since in terms of hitting Davenport is atleast as good as even peak Venus, and in fact more consistent probably too. So that would already dispell the idea Venus couldnt play good defense IMO. The defense was the big difference in their matches that period I recall. Davenport had to hit numerous winners to win a point, while Venus against the very slow Davenport only had to hit one.

If anything, the fact that Davenport managed to push Venus so much in that US Open final even when Venus was at her very peak, only serves to prove that Venus's movement wasn't an asset (as well as proving that claims that Peak Maria would've been no match for Peak Venus are nonsense). People in this thread are saying words to the effect of "Venus is just as good an offensive player as Maria if not even better, plus she has much better movement, therefore Venus would give her a beatdown". If that was the logic, it would apply to the Venus-Davenport match-up too - and yet, we see Davenport leads the head-to-head against Venus, including a big advantage on slow courts, AND she managed to test Venus even at Venus's very peak on a super-quick hardcourt. I would suggest that proves that Venus's much better athleticism/footspeed is a red herring and wouldn't mean anything in the Venus-Sharapova match-up, just as it did not in the Venus-Davenport match-up.

I said "As is the final." The video clip shows you the last few instances of pressure defense by Venus. But the match is chockfull of them. Click on the link to the youtube site for that match. You can start from the beginning of the second set if you wish, to save time.

Meanwhile, Forehand27 is spot on about the Lindsay-Venus matches.

And bandabou basically summarizes why Lindsay and Maria (in that Wimbledon clip you keep ignoring) were worn down by the second set:



....

I just watched about 20 mins of the middle of the USO match, and I'm sorry, I just don't see Venus winning tons of points from defensive positions :shrug: I just see her time and again chasing down lots of balls but being completely inefficient with what she does with them when she gets there and her opponent easily finishing off the point time and time again. Venus's success in this match comes with her great serves and great first strike off the ground, as far as I can see.

forehand27
Nov 18th, 2012, 02:41 AM
Regardless of the career H2H Venus lost only 1 match to Davenport at her 2000-2003 peak, and this is a thread only about peak play, and it was a small indoor event, so if you are using Davenport as the best indicator for Maria, well you see it isnt exactly a favorable one for Maria.

dsanders06
Nov 18th, 2012, 02:46 AM
Regardless of the career H2H Venus lost only 1 match to Davenport at her 2000-2003 peak, and this is a thread only about peak play, and it was a small indoor event, so if you are using Davenport as the best indicator for Maria, well you see it isnt exactly a favorable one for Maria.

But she tested her severely when Venus was at her peak (she had multiple leads in that 2000 US Open final), even on super-quick surfaces (remember I've never said Maria would beat Peaknus on quick hardcourts). Logically for Lindsay to have tested Peaknus so much, either Lindsay (and by extension Maria) are much better ballstrikers than Venus is, or Venus's defence has never been an asset.

Pump-it-UP
Nov 18th, 2012, 02:50 AM
If we consider Maria's peak to be pre-shoulder surgery when she couldn't play on clay, then Venus wins fairly comfortably in straight sets on all surfaces.
If we consider Maria's peak to be 2012, she'd get absolutely mauled on grass/hard and their clay matches would be 50/50 with the only clear edge going to Maria on Parisian clay.

Regardless, Venus.

http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/5600/58053525.gif

azinna
Nov 18th, 2012, 02:55 AM
If anything, the fact that Davenport managed to push Venus so much in that US Open final even when Venus was at her very peak, only serves to prove that Venus's movement wasn't an asset....I just watched about 20 mins of the middle of the USO match, and I'm sorry, I just don't see Venus winning tons of points from defensive positions ....

That's fine, dsanders. Perhaps the clip below could help. Otherwise, it's been nice discussing.

6kvjIzn2raQ&feature=relmfu

bandabou
Nov 18th, 2012, 10:35 AM
:lol: As usual it's just usuless discusssing with douchesanders. He just won't see and won't listen to reason.

Mr.Sharapova
Nov 18th, 2012, 12:46 PM
Did dsanders just say Venus's movement was never an asset? Venus? As in WILLIAMS? :confused: :lol:

Anyways, to you lot:
ahoura, Aleks, AndreConrad, Angelpova, Cecig, dsanders06, effedcamel, Fighterpova, joão., Joe., Lucyxx, M.M, MaruSharapova, Masha Fierce, NashaMasha, Qetusi, Roookie, selesbooz, Slampova, Vartan, viktoryork
Take a seat you dumb fucks.:wavey:
http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lnljsd3WDZ1qfa0zdo1_500.gif?.jpg

http://i931.photobucket.com/albums/ad151/Milot_Sheremeti/tumblr_m7dh2a5Mja1rxjzkho1_500.gif

Alejandrawrrr
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:51 PM
So Martha fans think she'll win, while the entire rest of TF picks Venus :lol: I came in here thinking I'd have to defend Venus, but looking at the way Maria's getting dragged in the poll... :haha: I'll actually say some aren't cutting it enough slack, the way it played in AO08 QF molesting Henin would definitely give Peak Venus fits, regularly going down in two tight sets or three-setters, but Venus would dominate the meetings on grass and win more often than not on hard as well. And against similar players(Seles, Pierce, Davenport) Venus' records against them respectively are 9-1(1-0 on clay,) 7-3(3-0 on clay with 0 sets lost) and 13-14(but 9-1 during her peak of 00-03,) so I see little reason why Sharapova would lead Venus on any surface :shrug:

J4m3ka
Nov 18th, 2012, 02:10 PM
Did dsanders just say Venus's movement was never an asset? Venus? As in WILLIAMS? :confused: :lol:

Anyways, to you lot:
ahoura, Aleks, AndreConrad, Angelpova, Cecig, dsanders06, effedcamel, Fighterpova, joão., Joe., Lucyxx, M.M, MaruSharapova, Masha Fierce, NashaMasha, Qetusi, Roookie, selesbooz, Slampova, Vartan, viktoryork
Take a seat you dumb fucks.:wavey:
http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lnljsd3WDZ1qfa0zdo1_500.gif?.jpg

I see a lot of usernames with "Pova" and "Masha" in them in that list :oh:

:lol:

Lachy
Nov 18th, 2012, 02:52 PM
So Martha fans think she'll win, while the entire rest of TF picks Venus :lol: I came in here thinking I'd have to defend Venus, but looking at the way Maria's getting dragged in the poll... :haha: I'll actually say some aren't cutting it enough slack, the way it played in AO08 QF molesting Henin would definitely give Peak Venus fits, regularly going down in two tight sets or three-setters, but Venus would dominate the meetings on grass and win more often than not on hard as well. And against similar players(Seles, Pierce, Davenport) Venus' records against them respectively are 9-1(1-0 on clay,) 7-3(3-0 on clay with 0 sets lost) and 13-14(but 9-1 during her peak of 00-03,) so I see little reason why Sharapova would lead Venus on any surface :shrug:

As I've said, my vote is Venus in 3 overall. But you're in no position to call her 'it'. Sit your ass down.

Like who the fck do you think you are? :spit:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ly00zxNy4X1qagutco5_250.gif

dsanders06
Nov 18th, 2012, 04:25 PM
And against similar players(Davenport) ... Venus' records against them respectively are 13-14(but 9-1 during her peak of 00-03,) so I see little reason why Sharapova would lead Venus on any surface :shrug:

Let's debunk this myth that Venus owned Davenport once and for all :lol: Here are the meetings between Venus and Davenport between 2000-03:

5 (5) 2000 WIMBLEDON GRASS F V.Williams6-3 7-6(3) 2 (2)
3 (2) 2000 STANFORD HARD F V.Williams 6-1 6-4 2 (1)
3 (3) 2000 US OPEN HARD F V.Williams 6-4 7-5 2 (2)
3 (2) 2000 LINZ CARPET F L. Davenport 6-4 3-6 6-2 2 (1)
2 (2) 2001 WIMBLEDON GRASS S V.Williams 6-2 6-7(1) 6-1 3 (3)
3 (2) 2001 SAN DIEGO HARD S V.Williams 6-2 7-5 4 (4)
4 (3) 2001 NEW HAVEN HARD F V.Williams 7-6(6) 6-4 3 (1)
2 (1) 2002 SAN DIEGO HARD S V.Williams 6-2 6-1 9 (3)
2 (1) 2002 NEW HAVEN HARD F V.Williams7-5 6-010 (2)
4 (4) 2003 WIMBLEDON GRASS Q V.Williams 6-2 2-6 6-1 5 (5)

Every.single.one (literally) was on either grass or on the super-quick US Open Series hardcourts, because Venus was too useless on slow hardcourts even at her peak to get far enough in draws to play Lindsay, and both were too useless on clay. And even on these super-quick surfaces, we can see Lindsay made it competitive many times in 2000-01 (not so much 2002, but Lindsay was slumping due to a knee injury at that time). So if the Venustards' best argument that she would own Maria is Venus's record against Davenport, then that suggests Peak Maria would be able to make it very competitive against Venus even on super-quick surfaces (again, this is by the Venustards' logic that Maria would perform at Davenport's level) and it says nothing whatsoever about the match-up on slow surfaces :lol:

"Peak Venus" does seem to be subject to an awful lot of mythologising on here these days. It's no good people just making sweeping statements that "Peak Venus was unbeatable!!!!11" when all of "Peak Venus"s performances were on super-quick surfaces -- the only significant tournament she won on slow hardcourts was the Sydney Olympics, and even there she barely scraped past washed up Seles and Sanchez-Vicario ( :spit: ). She simply never, even at her peak, beat anyone of Peak Maria's calibre on slow hardcourts or clay.

Leo St
Nov 18th, 2012, 04:28 PM
Let's debunk this myth that Venus owned Davenport once and for all :lol: Here are the meetings between Venus and Davenport between 2000-03:

5 (5) 2000 WIMBLEDON GRASS F V.Williams6-3 7-6(3) 2 (2)
3 (2) 2000 STANFORD HARD F V.Williams 6-1 6-4 2 (1)
3 (3) 2000 US OPEN HARD F V.Williams 6-4 7-5 2 (2)
3 (2) 2000 LINZ CARPET F L. Davenport 6-4 3-6 6-2 2 (1)
2 (2) 2001 WIMBLEDON GRASS S V.Williams 6-2 6-7(1) 6-1 3 (3)
3 (2) 2001 SAN DIEGO HARD S V.Williams 6-2 7-5 4 (4)
4 (3) 2001 NEW HAVEN HARD F V.Williams 7-6(6) 6-4 3 (1)
2 (1) 2002 SAN DIEGO HARD S V.Williams 6-2 6-1 9 (3)
2 (1) 2002 NEW HAVEN HARD F V.Williams7-5 6-010 (2)
4 (4) 2003 WIMBLEDON GRASS Q V.Williams 6-2 2-6 6-1 5 (5)

Every.single.one (literally) was on either grass or on the super-quick US Open Series hardcourts, because Venus was too useless on slow hardcourts even at her peak to get far enough in draws to play Lindsay, and both were too useless on clay. And even on these super-quick surfaces, we can see Lindsay made it competitive many times in 2000-01 (not so much 2002, but Lindsay was slumping due to a knee injury at that time). So if the Venustards' best argument that she would own Maria is Venus's record against Davenport, then that suggests Peak Maria would be able to make it very competitive against Venus even on super-quick surfaces (again, this is by the Venustards' logic that Maria would perform at Davenport's level) and it says nothing whatsoever about the match-up on slow surfaces :lol:

"Peak Venus" does seem to be subject to an awful lot of mythologising on here these days. It's no good people just making sweeping statements that "Peak Venus was unbeatable!!!!11" when all of "Peak Venus"s performances were on super-quick surfaces -- the only significant tournament she won on slow hardcourts was the Sydney Olympics, and even there she barely scraped past washed up Seles and Sanchez-Vicario ( :spit: ). She simply never, even at her peak, beat anyone of Peak Maria's calibre on slow hardcourts or clay.

am i the only one who think those facts work for venus? lol

Leo St
Nov 18th, 2012, 04:30 PM
d. you keep on preaching and maybe in 2014 off season it will be 75/25%

forehand27
Nov 18th, 2012, 04:44 PM
Venus was too useless on slow hardcourts even at her peak to get far enough in draws to play Lindsay

Venus at the Australian Open from 2001-2003 went semis, quarters, and final. Davenport those same years went semis, DNP, and 4th round. It was Davenport's fault more than Venus's they did not play on slow hard courts at Venus's peak. BTW did you know Miami was considered a slow hard court. The same place Venus won in 1998, 1999, 2001, and made finals in 2002. What was Davenport doing those years?

and both were too useless on clay.

Venus was in the Roland Garros finals in 2002, and won Premier titles on clay in 2001 and 2002. Although her best years of clay tennis were probably 1999 and 2004 which were even better outside a dissapointing RG.


And even on these super-quick surfaces, we can see Lindsay made it competitive many times in 2000-01 (not so much 2002, but Lindsay was slumping due to a knee injury at that time). So if the Venustards' best argument that she would own Maria is Venus's record against Davenport, then that suggests Peak Maria would be able to make it very competitive against Venus even on super-quick surfaces

We already know peak Maria would not be remotedly competitive against Venus on grass since they actually played twice at Wimbledon when Venus was nowhere near her peak and Maria in hers (since the general consensus is her true peak was 2004-early 2008 except on clay), and Maria got destroyed both times. One doesnt need to reference a Davenport match to know that.

As for fast hard courts one only has to compare their U.S Open records and the conversation ends. Maria cant even come close to the same success in a way weaker era.

You keep talking about "super quick hard courts" but Miami is not a super quick hard court, and the regular summer events on U.S hard courts mostly arent either, except the relatively new Cincinnati event. Other than the U.S Open, Venus has never played Cincinnati near her prime, and of course boycotted Indian Wells on their faster hard courts. So most of Venus's dominance and success outside her great U.S Open record is slower hard courts of some sort. Compare Maria's record at Miami to Venus's and it is again a joke and no contest. Compare Maria's best streaks on hard courts to Venus in the summers of 2000 and 2001. Again no contest. Are you actually thinking Australia is the only place that is a slow hard court, and all others a super quick hard courts.

J4m3ka
Nov 18th, 2012, 04:58 PM
Venus at the Australian Open from 2001-2003 went semis, quarters, and final. Davenport those same years went semis, DNP, and 4th round. It was Davenport's fault more than Venus's they did not play on slow hard courts at Venus's peak. BTW did you know Miami was considered a slow hard court. The same place Venus won in 1998, 1999, 2001, and made finals in 2002. What was Davenport doing those years?



Venus was in the Roland Garros finals in 2002, and won Premier titles on clay in 2001 and 2002. Although her best years of clay tennis were probably 1999 and 2004 which were even better outside a dissapointing RG.




We already know peak Maria would not be remotedly competitive against Venus on grass since they actually played twice at Wimbledon when Venus was nowhere near her peak and Maria in hers (since the general consensus is her true peak was 2004-early 2008 except on clay), and Maria got destroyed both times. One doesnt need to reference a Davenport match to know that.

As for fast hard courts one only has to compare their U.S Open records and the conversation ends. Maria cant even come close to the same success in a way weaker era.

You keep talking about "super quick hard courts" but Miami is not a super quick hard court, and the regular summer events on U.S hard courts mostly arent either, except the relatively new Cincinnati event. Other than the U.S Open, Venus has never played Cincinnati near her prime, and of course boycotted Indian Wells on their faster hard courts. So most of Venus's dominance and success outside her great U.S Open record is slower hard courts of some sort. Compare Maria's record at Miami to Venus's and it is again a joke and no contest. Compare Maria's best streaks on hard courts to Venus in the summers of 2000 and 2001. Again no contest. Are you actually thinking Australia is the only place that is a slow hard court, and all others a super quick hard courts.

:worship:

dsanders06
Nov 18th, 2012, 05:06 PM
We already know peak Maria would not be remotedly competitive against Venus on grass since they actually played twice at Wimbledon when Venus was nowhere near her peak and Maria in hers (since the general consensus is her true peak was 2004-early 2008 except on clay), and Maria got destroyed both times. One doesnt need to reference a Davenport match to know that.

Actually, Venus was probably closer to peak form in their 2005 Wimbledon match than Maria was. And even so, that match was competitive. Of course, Peak Venus would still beat Peak Maria on grass somehow, but it wouldn't be anything close to a beatdown - no match between two of the best players of a generation in peak form would EVER be a beatdown (incidentally, even though I think Peak Maria would almost certainly beat Peak Venus on slow surfaces, it wouldn't be a beatdown, Venus's serve alone would ensure she got a respectable number of games).



As for fast hard courts one only has to compare their U.S Open records and the conversation ends. Maria cant even come close to the same success in a way weaker era.

Again: I'M NOT SAYING MARIA WOULD BEAT PEAK VENUS ON QUICK HARCOURTS (including the US Open). My point in the previous post was simply in response to people trying to use the Venus-Davenport headtohead as some kind of argument, when it doesn't apply to the discussion about whether Venus could beat Maria on slow surfaces, because Venus never beat Lindsay on slow surfaces.

You keep talking about "super quick hard courts" but Miami is not a super quick hard court, and the regular summer events on U.S hard courts mostly arent either, except the relatively new Cincinnati event. Other than the U.S Open, Venus has never played Cincinnati near her prime, and of course boycotted Indian Wells on their faster hard courts. So most of Venus's dominance and success outside her great U.S Open record is slower hard courts of some sort. Compare Maria's record at Miami to Venus's and it is again a joke and no contest. Compare Maria's best streaks on hard courts to Venus in the summers of 2000 and 2001. Again no contest. Are you actually thinking Australia is the only place that is a slow hard court, and all others a super quick hard courts.

Yes, Venus has a better record than Maria at Miami. But Maria has a MUCH better record than Venus at the slow hardcourt Grand Slam (probably even bigger than the gap between Venus and Maria at the US Open), no? :lol:

And no, virtually all the US Open Series surfaces were lightning-quick back in the early 21st century (bar Canada, but Venus never played there anyway).

forehand27
Nov 18th, 2012, 05:13 PM
Actually, Venus was probably closer to peak form in their 2005 Wimbledon match than Maria was.

This is in no way true. 2005 is Maria's 2nd best Wimbledon performance ever after only 2004, heck actually until the final, a final Maria never go to play in 2005 due to Venus, 2005 was much better than 2004. No other Wimbledon Maria played has she reached her 2004-2005 grass level ever again. Venus has played many Wimbledons better than 2005, obviously all her peak years of 2000-2002, 2007, probably 2008.


Yes, Venus has a better record than Maria at Miami. But Maria has a MUCH better record than Venus at the slow hardcourt Grand Slam (probably even bigger than the gap between Venus and Maria at the US Open), no? :lol:

The point is looking at their records it seems the only place Maria has the edge on Venus on slow hard courts is the Australian Open. Yes the most important slow hard court event as it is a slam, but the way you were talking it seemed to be that Maria had the edge on all those hard courts which make up 80% or more of the tour today, with Venus only at the U.S Open and the rare really fast hard court even of nearly the same speed, and that is far from the case. It is more like the Australian Open is the only hard court event Maria has an edge, with Venus nearly everywhere else.

And no, virtually all the US Open Series surfaces were lightning-quick back in the early 21st century (bar Canada, but Venus never played there anyway).

I dont know what you are smoking but it is a known fact that all courts, especialy the faster courts of old, have been slowed down in the last decade, for both men and women. Even the U.S Open courts have been.

Lilowannabe
Nov 18th, 2012, 05:16 PM
I think the polls pretty accurate of the result, I think Peak Venus would win 4/6 against Peak Masha, but it would be tight. Vee has the bigger first strike, and serve while Maria was the cleaner, more consistent ball striker. The real difference maker was Williams movement, though a few posters have criticised her for not playing smart defence, peak Venus got everything back and but huge pressure on opponents to go for too much. Wimbledon 05 is a pretty good example of how it would play out IMO

J4m3ka
Nov 18th, 2012, 05:29 PM
This is in no way true. 2005 is Maria's 2nd best Wimbledon performance ever after only 2004, heck actually until the final, a final Maria never go to play in 2005 due to Venus, 2005 was much better than 2004. No other Wimbledon Maria played has she reached her 2004-2005 grass level ever again. Venus has played many Wimbledons better than 2005, obviously all her peak years of 2000-2002, 2007, probably 2008.




The point is looking at their records it seems the only place Maria has the edge on Venus on slow hard courts is the Australian Open. Yes the most important slow hard court event as it is a slam, but the way you were talking it seemed to be that Maria had the edge on all those hard courts which make up 80% or more of the tour today, with Venus only at the U.S Open and the rare really fast hard court even of nearly the same speed, and that is far from the case. It is more like the Australian Open is the only hard court event Maria has an edge, with Venus nearly everywhere else.



I dont know what you are smoking but it is a known fact that all courts, especialy the faster courts of old, have been slowed down in the last decade, for both men and women. Even the U.S Open courts have been.

:worship:

But I would add that Maria's overall record at the Australian being better than Venus's is not really relevant to the thread anyway as we are talking about peak level of play rather than career achievements. As it stands, Venus at the 2003 Australian = Maria at the 2008 Australian, so she doesn't even have that advantage :lol:

hablo
Nov 18th, 2012, 05:31 PM
am i the only one who think those facts work for venus? lol

Not at all. :haha:

forehand27
Nov 18th, 2012, 05:34 PM
True, Venus at the 2003 Australian Open was outstanding and atleast on par with Maria's wonderful performance at the 2008 Australian Open. Venus also played some good tennis at the Australian Open in 1998, 1999, 2002 losing to early career nemisis Davenport in the first two otherwise would probably have been a finalist both years, and in 2002 losing in 3 sets to an inspired Seles who played one of her best post stabbing matches where both women played at a much higher level than the crappy Hingis vs Capriati final to come. Maria played pretty good tennis at the 2005, 2006, and at times 2012 Australian Open. 2007 she played garbage tennis to make the final, which was exposed in the final itself, WTA was just in a different state already by then. So in terms of subjective sheer peak play and prime level play at the event, Venus is probably as good or better than Maria even at the Australian Open.

dsanders06
Nov 18th, 2012, 05:42 PM
This is in no way true. 2005 is Maria's 2nd best Wimbledon performance ever after only 2004, heck actually until the final, a final Maria never go to play in 2005 due to Venus, 2005 was much better than 2004. No other Wimbledon Maria played has she reached her 2004-2005 grass level ever again. Venus has played many Wimbledons better than 2005, obviously all her peak years of 2000-2002, 2007, probably 2008.

Obviously, the 2005 season as a whole isn't Venus's best season. Her performance at Wimbledon that year was one of her best. There was a discussion about this a few months ago and quite a few people thought Venus's performances on grass between 2005-08 were better than when her career as a whole was peaking (though I'm sure those people would deny it now, because it doesn't suit Venus in this particular argument to say it :lol: ).




The point is looking at their records it seems the only place Maria has the edge on Venus on slow hard courts is the Australian Open. Yes the most important slow hard court event as it is a slam, but the way you were talking it seemed to be that Maria had the edge on all those hard courts which make up 80% or more of the tour today, with Venus only at the U.S Open and the rare really fast hard court even of nearly the same speed, and that is far from the case. It is more like the Australian Open is the only hard court event Maria has an edge, with Venus nearly everywhere else.

Yes, ONLY the Australian Open, by far the most important slow hardcourt tournament there is. :lol:



I dont know what you are smoking but it is a known fact that all courts, especialy the faster courts of old, have been slowed down in the last decade, for both men and women. Even the U.S Open courts have been.

:unsure: No. The US Open Series hardcourts only started being slowed down significantly about 5 years ago -- well after the timeframe when Venus was dominating those tournaments. What is even your point, and how does it relate to Peak Maria vs Peak Venus? :confused:

:worship:

But I would add that Maria's overall record at the Australian being better than Venus's is not really relevant to the thread anyway as we are talking about peak level of play rather than career achievements. As it stands, Venus at the 2003 Australian = Maria at the 2008 Australian, so she doesn't even have that advantage :lol:

:spit: And this sums up how divorced from reality Venustards are. Goodnight :lol:

AcesHigh
Nov 18th, 2012, 05:44 PM
I wish Venus was lucky enough to play Ana Ivanovic and Sara Errani in slam finals at AO and RG.

dsanders06
Nov 18th, 2012, 05:45 PM
I wish Venus was lucky enough to play Ana Ivanovic and Sara Errani in slam finals at AO and RG.

You do realise Venus lost to Ivanovic at that very tournament where she made the final :spit:

Anyway, Ivanovic finished 2008 ranked #5 -- just one place below where Hingis finished in 2001, the year when she gave PEEK VENUS!!111 an utter beatdown at the AO, so :shrug:

madmax
Nov 18th, 2012, 05:52 PM
You do realise Venus lost to Ivanovic at that very tournament where she made the final :spit:

Anyway, Ivanovic finished 2008 ranked #5 -- just one place below where Hingis finished in 2001, the year when she gave PEEK VENUS!!111 an utter beatdown at the AO, so :shrug:

:haha:
owned...

bandabou
Nov 18th, 2012, 06:14 PM
You do realise Venus lost to Ivanovic at that very tournament where she made the final :spit:

Anyway, Ivanovic finished 2008 ranked #5 -- just one place below where Hingis finished in 2001, the year when she gave PEEK VENUS!!111 an utter beatdown at the AO, so :shrug:

Ah douchesanders, stupid as always. PEAK Masha got to play...Ivanovic to win her lone Oz open.
Peak Venus (and certainly that wasn't in '08), got to play peak Serena and Hingis.

forehand27
Nov 18th, 2012, 06:39 PM
It is well known Sjogrens Venus was not that good a player on slower surfaces (who ever would be on those long rallying type of courts with a condition like that and advancing to or in their 30s, and alot of injuries accumulated over many years, on top of that), so it doesnt make sense to reference her results on slow courts in 2008 when talking about peak. Nobody would dispute peak or even current Sharapova >>>>>>>>> Sjogrens Venus on all slower courts. The question of this thread is how they would compare peak to peak.

I dont talk about current Sharapova as peak Sharapova (despite that she actually matches her year end high year end rankings the last 2 years) and say Kvitova is obviously way better than peak Sharapova on grass (yet), or say that peak Lisicki is equal to peak Sharapova on grass (which based only on current play she would be looking at their encounters), or that Azarenka is better than peak Sharapova on hard courts based on current results. I wouldnt be so stupid to say any of that despite that Sharapova, while clearly not peak outside of clay IMHO, is still about 5 times closer to her peak on any surface than late 2000s Venus was on any non grass surface, despite that at the U.S Open and WTA Championships she was still one of the best at that point even nowhere near peak.

ExXotikal
Nov 18th, 2012, 06:46 PM
Napnus Price only had 1 more slam than Pova at 25. Let's not act like they shouldn't be compared.

TPlaya8
Nov 18th, 2012, 06:56 PM
Obviously, the 2005 season as a whole isn't Venus's best season. Her performance at Wimbledon that year was one of her best. There was a discussion about this a few months ago and quite a few people thought Venus's performances on grass between 2005-08 were better than when her career as a whole was peaking (though I'm sure those people would deny it now, because it doesn't suit Venus in this particular argument to say it :lol: ).

Actually I didn't see that discussion about Venus at Wimbledon, I would say she had moments of great performances in particular matches during those years (Which is more so due to the tennis world counting her out during those years) but I don't think they were here best years peaking at Wimbledon.

2005 Venus actually was not playing great tennis. She didn't start playing well until she met Craybas after Craybas put out Serena!

2007 was actually even worse. She was two points away from losing in the first round and was Down 3-5 30all to Morigami in the 3rd round.

2008 to be honest was not that great from Venus she really just had an easy draw to be totally honest but she did turn it up when she got to Dementieva and Serena!

2009 was porbably the most dominate all the way through except unlike the other years she wasn't clutch in the big match against Serena!





Yes, ONLY the Australian Open, by far the most important slow hardcourt tournament there is. :lol:


thats the whole point! Just because Maria did better in Australia than Venus doesn't mean she will do better than Venus if they met on a slow hardcourt.

They have only had 2 matches on slow hardcourts both in Miami. Sharapova beat Venus in a competetive straigh set match in 2005 (way closer to Peak Pova than Peak Venus) and also a 3 set ugly slugfest in 2007 in Venus' 2nd tournament back from her wrist injury in like her 9th match since Wimbledon 2006. (actually less match play than Sharapova had in their 2009 Stanford meeting which every Sharapova fan always has a disclaimer on)

Then too be honest everything is about match ups period! Different players match up better with other players than they do others. I believe Venus matches up better with Sharapova than she does Davenport. Even Davenport in that 2005 Wimbledon did way more than Sharapova could do with Venus (even with her less movement) because they match up different.

TPlaya8
Nov 18th, 2012, 07:00 PM
Napnus Price only had 1 more slam than Pova at 25. Let's not act like they shouldn't be compared.

If you wanna go there....

Sharapova just won her 4th Slam at age 25

Venus had 4 slams and a gold medal at age 21

and if you really wanna go there....

Sharapova won 4 slams in 8 years

Venus won 4 slams and an Olympic Gold medal in 15 months

Sharapova has only made it to more than 1 Grand Slam finals in a span of a year twice. '06 Us open-'07 Aussie '12 Aussie-'12 French

Venus was in 9 out of 13 Grand Slam Finals from 2000 Wimbledon-2003 Wimbledon.

When will Sharapova ever be that consistent of a Grand Slam contender?

ExXotikal
Nov 18th, 2012, 07:17 PM
If you wanna go there....

Sharapova just won her 4th Slam at age 25

Venus had 4 slams and a gold medal at age 21

Maria won her 3rd slam at 20, Fuglynus won her first at 20.

Your point?

ExXotikal
Nov 18th, 2012, 07:20 PM
If you wanna go there....

Sharapova just won her 4th Slam at age 25

Venus had 4 slams and a gold medal at age 21

and if you really wanna go there....

Sharapova won 4 slams in 8 years

Venus won 4 slams and an Olympic Gold medal in 15 months

Sharapova has only made it to more than 1 Grand Slam finals in a span of a year twice. '06 Us open-'07 Aussie '12 Aussie-'12 French

Venus was in 9 out of 13 Grand Slam Finals from 2000 Wimbledon-2003 Wimbledon.

When will Sharapova ever be that consistent of a Grand Slam contender?

Sharapova is one of the top3 favourite at every slam she enters, at least. SugaMamanus was not a contender at every slam before and after she won her 5th slam.

TPlaya8
Nov 18th, 2012, 07:25 PM
Maria won her 3rd slam at 20, Fuglynus won her first at 20.

Your point?

Sharapova won 4 slams in 8 years

Venus won 4 slams and an Olympic Gold medal in 15 months

This is my point! And your ignorance level is shown just by the fact of you refering to Venus as "Fuglynus". At least have enough courtesy, respect, and dignity to refer to someone as their birth given name instead of a childish insult!

forehand27
Nov 18th, 2012, 07:29 PM
Sharapova was not a top 3 contender at every slam she entered in her true prime in 2004-2008. In fact most of them she wasnt:

2004 Australian Open- not even close
2004 French- not even close
2004 Wimbledon- Davenport, Venus, Serena, Mauresmo, Capriati, all more favored
2004 U.S Open- Davenport, Serena, Henin, Mauresmo, all more favored
2005 Australian- Maybe a top 3 favorite
2005 French- not even close
2005 Wimbledon- A top 3 favorite for sure
2005 U.S Open- Clijsters, Venus, Henin, Davenport were all more favored
2006 Australian- Henin, Mauresmo, Clijsters were top 3 favorites
2006 French- never was a top 3 favorite on clay until recently
2006 Wimbledon- Henin, Venus, and Mauresmo were top 3 favorites
2006 U.S Open- A top 3 favorite
2007 Australian Open- A top 3 favorite
2007 French- read above French Opens
2007 Wimbledon- Henin, Serena, and Venus were top 3 favorites
2007 U.S Open- same as above
2008 Australian Open- Maybe 3rd favorite behind Serena and Henin
2008 French- read above French Opens
2008 Wimbledon- Maybe 3rd favorite behind Serena and Venus

So of 19 slams played we have at most 6 she was a top 3 favorite to win. It is only in the royal mug era she has become a top 3 favorite to win virtually any slam she plays.

dsanders06
Nov 18th, 2012, 07:30 PM
Actually I didn't see that discussion about Venus at Wimbledon, I would say she had moments of great performances in particular matches during those years (Which is more so due to the tennis world counting her out during those years) but I don't think they were here best years peaking at Wimbledon.

2005 Venus actually was not playing great tennis. She didn't start playing well until she met Craybas after Craybas put out Serena!

2007 was actually even worse. She was two points away from losing in the first round and was Down 3-5 30all to Morigami in the 3rd round.

2008 to be honest was not that great from Venus she really just had an easy draw to be totally honest but she did turn it up when she got to Dementieva and Serena!

2009 was porbably the most dominate all the way through except unlike the other years she wasn't clutch in the big match against Serena!

You have to remember here that, when Venus was at her 2000-03 peak, most people would've said super-quick hardcourts were her best surface, NOT grass. She really wasn't that dominant atall at Wimbledon in 2000-01 -- in 2000 she barely scraped past Hingis on Hingis's worst surface, and in 2001 she dropped a set to pubescent Henin.

In 2005, 2007 (bar her first 3 shitty rounds) and 2008, she was less error-prone at Wimbledon than she was in her peak years, mainly because she was better at adjusting for the bounce and crouching down lower.




Then too be honest everything is about match ups period! Different players match up better with other players than they do others. I believe Venus matches up better with Sharapova than she does Davenport. Even Davenport in that 2005 Wimbledon did way more than Sharapova could do with Venus (even with her less movement) because they match up different.

You guys keep flip-flopping :lol: One minute it's about achievements (even though Maria is more accomplished than Venus on the surfaces where I'm saying Peak Maria would beat her), the next minute it's about the match-up and Venus apparently owning slow ballbashers (even though Maria's equivalent in Davenport managed to compete with Peak Venus on quick surfaces, and no evidence whatsoever on slow surfaces). Make up your minds. Eitherway you don't have a strong argument :lol:

Alejandrawrrr
Nov 18th, 2012, 07:32 PM
Sharapova is one of the top3 favourite at every slam she enters, at least. SugaMamanus was not a contender at every slam before and after she won her 5th slam.

In this piss poor era being a top 3 favorite is not a huge accomplishment. And is she really a top 3 favorite at Wimbledon btw? As of this year I'd rank Serena, Vika and Petra as the top 3, with Maria being right ahead of Grandma Sjogrenus.

+ Venus often WAS a favorite at every slam in the early 2000s, it's only hindsight that tells us she would be such a failure(for her standards) at AO/RG. From 2001-2002 she was most DEFINITELY a top 3 favorite at every single slam, anyone who says otherwise didn't watch tennis then or is a delusional Mashabator. Which one are you sis? :oh:

Volcana
Nov 18th, 2012, 07:32 PM
If they're both at their best, they're basically the same player, except Venus is faster, can return serve from closer to the baseline, volleys MUCH better, and can hit offensive shots from defensive positions.

Sharapova has a better second serve, but peak vs peak, there won't BE many second serves.

The difference is footspeed tells the tale. Venus will just run down and return more stuff.

ExXotikal
Nov 18th, 2012, 07:33 PM
Sharapova was not a top 3 contender at every slam she entered in her true prime in 2004-2008. In fact most of them she wasnt:

2004 Australian Open- not even close
2004 French- not even close
2004 Wimbledon- Davenport, Venus, Serena, Mauresmo, Capriati, all more favored
2004 U.S Open- Davenport, Serena, Henin, Mauresmo, all more favored
2005 Australian- Maybe a top 3 favorite
2005 French- not even close
2005 Wimbledon- A top 3 favorite for sure
2005 U.S Open- Clijsters, Venus, Henin, Davenport were all more favored
2006 Australian- Henin, Mauresmo, Clijsters were top 3 favorites
2006 French- never was a top 3 favorite on clay until recently
2006 Wimbledon- Henin, Venus, and Mauresmo were top 3 favorites
2006 U.S Open- A top 3 favorite
2007 Australian Open- A top 3 favorite
2007 French- read above French Opens
2007 Wimbledon- Henin, Serena, and Venus were top 3 favorites
2007 U.S Open- same as above
2008 Australian Open- Maybe 3rd favorite behind Serena and Henin
2008 French- read above French Opens
2008 Wimbledon- Maybe 3rd favorite behind Serena and Venus

So of 19 slams played we have at most 6 she was a top 3 favorite to win. It is only in the royal mug era she has become a top 3 favorite to win virtually any slam she plays.

Im talking about since 2012 AO onwards. Sit.

ExXotikal
Nov 18th, 2012, 07:36 PM
In this piss poor era being a top 3 favorite is not a huge accomplishment. And is she really a top 3 favorite at Wimbledon btw? As of this year I'd rank Serena, Vika and Petra as the top 3, with Maria being right ahead of Grandma Sjogrenus.

+ Venus often WAS a favorite at every slam in the early 2000s, it's only hindsight that tells us she would be such a failure(for her standards) at AO/RG. From 2001-2002 she was most DEFINITELY a top 3 favorite at every single slam, anyone who says otherwise didn't watch tennis then or is a delusional Mashabator. Which one are you sis? :oh:

I said before her 5th slam which refers to the couple of slams played before in which she was flopping. Read carefully Sis. I mean, she was ranked low as fuck when she won this shit.

forehand27
Nov 18th, 2012, 07:40 PM
Im talking about since 2012 AO onwards. Sit.

So 25 year old Maria is better today than 32 year old Venus. Congratulations. You want a cookie for that.

ExXotikal
Nov 18th, 2012, 07:45 PM
So 25 year old Maria is better today than 32 year old Venus. Congratulations. You want a cookie for that.

This is so not my point.
You struggle to grasp the nuances of my arguments. I aint mad at you, watching Flopnus play can do that to a humain being.

TPlaya8
Nov 18th, 2012, 07:45 PM
You have to remember here that, when Venus was at her 2000-03 peak, most people would've said super-quick hardcourts were her best surface, NOT grass. She really wasn't that dominant atall at Wimbledon in 2000-01 -- in 2000 she barely scraped past Hingis on Hingis's worst surface, and in 2001 she dropped a set to pubescent Henin.

In 2005, 2007 (bar her first 3 shitty rounds) and 2008, she was less error-prone at Wimbledon than she was in her peak years, mainly because she was better at adjusting for the bounce and crouching down lower.

And i do agree you saw her "grass game" develop more in those year" (Even though I really think it was just that is was just a stark difference than her game on other surfaces at the time) Maybe I am not sure I didn't watch Tennis regualry until 2004 and I was only watching the grand slams from from 2002-2003. I really don't know what all was said about Venus in 2000-2001 Ibut I do know by 2002 and 2003 people were already talking about their dominance at the US Open and Wimbledon and in 2005 while the tournament was sytill going on they were saying grass was Venus' best surface. (this I know for a fact I have this whole tournament on vhs)





You guys keep flip-flopping :lol: One minute it's about achievements (even though Maria is more accomplished than Venus on the surfaces where I'm saying Peak Maria would beat her), the next minute it's about the match-up and Venus apparently owning slow ballbashers (even though Maria's equivalent in Davenport managed to compete with Peak Venus on quick surfaces, and no evidence whatsoever on slow surfaces). Make up your minds. Eitherway you don't have a strong argument :lol:

i never said it was about the chievements, please don't mistake my ideas for other posters. Maria is more accomplished at the Aussie Open and the French but i do think achievements go out the window when you say Peak vs Peak and it is more about the matchup (just like peak Serena struggled more with Capriati than any other player) but Peak Venus only lost 1 set to Capriati or Venus always had tough battles with Davenport but Serena always played her better)

It comes down to match up I honestly do believe that and i think Peak Venus matches up well with Peak Sharapova

forehand27
Nov 18th, 2012, 07:48 PM
This is so not my point.
You struggle to grasp the nuances of my arguments. I aint mad at you, watching Flopnus play can do that to a humain being.

I am not even a big fan of Venus. I am pretty neutral to both these players. This is the most active thread here at the moment and so many ridiculous arguments being made (especialy from the Maria stans like yourself) that it is hard to not want to jump in just for the lolz. As for the nuances of your argument, that is rich. :lol:

Craig.
Nov 18th, 2012, 07:50 PM
If they're both at their best, they're basically the same player, except Venus is faster, can return serve from closer to the baseline, volleys MUCH better, and can hit offensive shots from defensive positions.

Sharapova has a better second serve, but peak vs peak, there won't BE many second serves.

The difference is footspeed tells the tale. Venus will just run down and return more stuff.

Yup, I'd agree with this.

dsanders06
Nov 18th, 2012, 07:54 PM
If they're both at their best, they're basically the same player, except Venus is faster, can return serve from closer to the baseline, volleys MUCH better, and can hit offensive shots from defensive positions.

Sharapova has a better second serve, but peak vs peak, there won't BE many second serves.

The difference is footspeed tells the tale. Venus will just run down and return more stuff.

But again, if Venus's raw footspeed was such an asset, this would apply to her match-up with Davenport. And yet, once AGAIN, we see Davenport often made it competitive against Peaknus on super-quick surfaces, and would've been a heavy favourite on slow surfaces had her and Peaknus actually played on them.

The only way you can square the realities of the Venus-Davenport match-up with a belief that Venus would own Peak Maria, is if you believe Davenport is SIGNIFICANTLY better ballstriker than Peak Maria. Which....no. :lol:

bandabou
Nov 18th, 2012, 08:02 PM
But again, if Venus's raw footspeed was such an asset, this would apply to her match-up with Davenport. And yet, once AGAIN, we see Davenport often made it competitive against Peaknus on super-quick surfaces, and would've been a heavy favourite on slow surfaces had her and Peaknus actually played on them.

The only way you can square the realities of the Venus-Davenport match-up with a belief that Venus would own Peak Maria, is if you believe Davenport is SIGNIFICANTLY better ballstriker than Peak Maria. Which....no. :lol:

You keep talking about Linds making it competitive. So what?! she was still LOSING all the matches. Nobody said Vee'd bagel Maria ( for as good as Vee is, she still is no Serena)...but she still has the BIGGER game and can withstand Maria's strikes, so it's to be expected that she'd win 7 out of 10 times.

It's that simple.

TPlaya8
Nov 18th, 2012, 08:08 PM
But again, if Venus's raw footspeed was such an asset, this would apply to her match-up with Davenport. And yet, once AGAIN, we see Davenport often made it competitive against Peaknus on super-quick surfaces, and would've been a heavy favourite on slow surfaces had her and Peaknus actually played on them.

The only way you can square the realities of the Venus-Davenport match-up with a belief that Venus would own Peak Maria, is if you believe Davenport is SIGNIFICANTLY better ballstriker than Peak Maria. Which....no. :lol:

But even then thats why I said match-ups. Davenport is a tactician with awesome Power. Sharapova has power but she is not the tactical genius of Davenport.

Peak Sharapova would probably do exactly what she did to Serena in '04 and what she tried to do to Venus in '05 and that is try to outhit Venus because thats where her game lied!

Davenport never tried to outhit Venus Davenport constructed points with powerful shots with margin and consistenly tried breaking down Venus' forehand when she could.

Alejandrawrrr
Nov 18th, 2012, 09:26 PM
Since I refuse to remove him from my ignore list yet again, can someone please tell Dsanders that Maria isn't Lindsay. What Lindsay did against Venus is irrelevant, they are two completely different players. In terms of stroke production they are like night and day. Lindsay's strokes were more compact, so when a hardhitter like Venus hit their shot if Lindsay got to it she could smack the ball in a way that almost made the opponent's pace backfire against them. Maria on the other hand due to her longer takeback, HATES players hitting pacey/deep shots at her(Serena's raw pace, Vika's consistent deep redirects anyone?) That's why Lindsay excelled on grass and carpet, with Maria loving clay and slow hardcourts like at the Australian. If you put Maria against the very same Venus that was taken to three by Lindsay on fast surfaces, she may have simply been overwhelmed and made to hit forced errors by the pace of Venus' shots, going down in two*

There is obviously more to this matchup than that, but that's the most obvious reason as to why you can't use Lindsay's 14-13 record(or her apparently "respectable" 00-03 record of 1-9) against Venus to say Maria would do the same against Venus.

* As an aside, this is what I expect a Peaknus vs Peakpova match to look like, ESPECIALLY on grass. Venus would win by getting some extra balls back but more importantly hitting hard and linear like she tends to do, and rushing Sharapova like a lot of players(Serena & Vika at various times, even Lisicki at this year's Wimbledon) drawing a lot of errors from her.

madmax
Nov 18th, 2012, 09:46 PM
ain't it funny how HasBeenus is supposedly so superior to Pova, yet trails the H2H between the 2 in real life and is no match to Maria on hardcourts (excluding superfast Stanford HC, where she beat up on no-serve Masha, who just returned from career threatening injury and was losing to the likes of Dulko and Cibulkova LOL). It's even funnier knowing that Peak Maria (06' US Open and 08' AO) never played HasBeenus either, so the H2H between the 2 outside of Wimby would most likely be even more one sided...but let the general fools of GM carry on with their peak delusions of the peak world of Ms HasBeenus, while we mere mortals of this world will simply state the obvious facts:
Maria leads the H2H between the two 4-3
Maria is superior to HasBeenus everywhere except on grass, as the match history indicates.
:wavey:

LindsayRulz
Nov 18th, 2012, 09:53 PM
Since I refuse to remove him from my ignore list yet again, can someone please tell Dsanders that Maria isn't Lindsay. What Lindsay did against Venus is irrelevant, they are two completely different players. In terms of stroke production they are like night and day. Lindsay's strokes were more compact, so when a hardhitter like Venus hit their shot if Lindsay got to it she could smack the ball in a way that almost made the opponent's pace backfire against them. Maria on the other hand due to her longer takeback, HATES players hitting pacey/deep shots at her(Serena's raw pace, Vika's consistent deep redirects anyone?) That's why Lindsay excelled on grass and carpet, with Maria loving clay and slow hardcourts like at the Australian. If you put Maria against the very same Venus that was taken to three by Lindsay on fast surfaces, she may have simply been overwhelmed and made to hit forced errors by the pace of Venus' shots, going down in two*

There is obviously more to this matchup than that, but that's the most obvious reason as to why you can't use Lindsay's 14-13 record(or her apparently "respectable" 00-03 record of 1-9) against Venus to say Maria would do the same against Venus.

* As an aside, this is what I expect a Peaknus vs Peakpova match to look like, ESPECIALLY on grass. Venus would win by getting some extra balls back but more importantly hitting hard and linear like she tends to do, and rushing Sharapova like a lot of players(Serena & Vika at various times, even Lisicki at this year's Wimbledon) drawing a lot of errors from her.

Somebody finally understood. :sobbing:

http://gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=4302255&t=o (http://gifsoup.com/view/4302255/khorkina.html)

dsanders06
Nov 18th, 2012, 10:05 PM
Since I refuse to remove him from my ignore list yet again, can someone please tell Dsanders that Maria isn't Lindsay. What Lindsay did against Venus is irrelevant, they are two completely different players. In terms of stroke production they are like night and day. Lindsay's strokes were more compact, so when a hardhitter like Venus hit their shot if Lindsay got to it she could smack the ball in a way that almost made the opponent's pace backfire against them. Maria on the other hand due to her longer takeback, HATES players hitting pacey/deep shots at her(Serena's raw pace, Vika's consistent deep redirects anyone?) That's why Lindsay excelled on grass and carpet, with Maria loving clay and slow hardcourts like at the Australian. If you put Maria against the very same Venus that was taken to three by Lindsay on fast surfaces, she may have simply been overwhelmed and made to hit forced errors by the pace of Venus' shots, going down in two*

There is obviously more to this matchup than that, but that's the most obvious reason as to why you can't use Lindsay's 14-13 record(or her apparently "respectable" 00-03 record of 1-9) against Venus to say Maria would do the same against Venus.

* As an aside, this is what I expect a Peaknus vs Peakpova match to look like, ESPECIALLY on grass. Venus would win by getting some extra balls back but more importantly hitting hard and linear like she tends to do, and rushing Sharapova like a lot of players(Serena & Vika at various times, even Lisicki at this year's Wimbledon) drawing a lot of errors from her.

Typical. :lol: Once again, it's YOU yourself (and other Willytards) who brought up Davenport in the first place as an argument that Maria apparently wouldn't be able to live with Peak Venus. You guys keep trying to shift the goalposts once your arguments have been shot down :lol:

Anyway, what you say about Lindsay having more compact strokes isn't particularly true, Maria's strokes ARE relatively compact. What makes Maria's game more suited to slow surfaces than Lindsay's is that Maria (even Peak Maria) doesn't have quite as good footwork as Lindsay did. This wouldn't be an issue on slow surfaces where she WOULD have had time to get her feet set in time to load up as much as Lindsay did in her match-up against Venus. :) And on surfaces where Maria does have time to set her feet, she probably has more firepower than Lindsay ever did. Which, considering we've already established that the Venus-Davenport match-up shows that "even" Lindsay could overpower Peak Venus at times..... what argument are you guys going to shift to next? :lol:

dsanders06
Nov 18th, 2012, 10:10 PM
Oh, and suggesting Maria struggles with Vika because she gets overwhelmed by her pace, is a TOTAL misreading of that match-up :lol: Maria has never actually struggled particularly with ballbashers; it's counterpunchers (like Azarenka) who she hates playing.

TheDream
Nov 18th, 2012, 10:13 PM
Oh, and suggesting Maria struggles with Vika because she gets overwhelmed by her pace, is a TOTAL misreading of that match-up :lol: Maria has never actually struggled particularly with ballbashers; it's counterpunchers (like Azarenka) who she hates playing.

Azarenka's instincts are more aggressive than most counterpunchers. But, you also said Serena's defense and movement was bad as well. :lol:

WeiWei
Nov 18th, 2012, 10:17 PM
Venus with no doubt

madmax
Nov 18th, 2012, 10:18 PM
Azarenka's instincts are more aggressive than most counterpunchers. But, you also said Serena's defense and movement was bad as well. :lol:

LMAO...I've seen plenty of Vuvurenka's match stats, where she ends up with single digits in winners category and still whoops some scrub's ass, who outwinners her 2 to 1..:lol: Her game is ALL about consistency and counterpunching, which explains her stellar record on hardcourts and not so stellar results on natural surfaces, where you need to generate your own pace

bandabou
Nov 18th, 2012, 10:29 PM
Typical. :lol: Once again, it's YOU yourself (and other Willytards) who brought up Davenport in the first place as an argument that Maria apparently wouldn't be able to live with Peak Venus. You guys keep trying to shift the goalposts once your arguments have been shot down :lol:

Anyway, what you say about Lindsay having more compact strokes isn't particularly true, Maria's strokes ARE relatively compact. What makes Maria's game more suited to slow surfaces than Lindsay's is that Maria (even Peak Maria) doesn't have quite as good footwork as Lindsay did. This wouldn't be an issue on slow surfaces where she WOULD have had time to get her feet set in time to load up as much as Lindsay did in her match-up against Venus. :) And on surfaces where Maria does have time to set her feet, she probably has more firepower than Lindsay ever did. Which, considering we've already established that the Venus-Davenport match-up shows that "even" Lindsay could overpower Peak Venus at times..... what argument are you guys going to shift to next? :lol:

So this is basically clay? I have a question for you. Why does Maria struggle so much against Vika? Yet you're sooo sure that she would own Venus?!

~Cherry*Blossom~
Nov 18th, 2012, 10:33 PM
:haha: I can't believe that people are even arguing about this. It's not even close. Venus is miles better.

Vee Williams
Nov 18th, 2012, 10:39 PM
:haha: I can't believe that people are even arguing about this. It's not even close. Venus is miles better.

Once upon a time, this used to be a forum for creative and interesting posts.

hablo
Nov 18th, 2012, 10:46 PM
Once upon a time, this used to be a forum for creative and interesting posts.

Yes, how times have changed. :(

doomsday
Nov 18th, 2012, 10:47 PM
So this is basically clay? I have a question for you. Why does Maria struggle so much against Vika? Yet you're sooo sure that she would own Venus?!

That's not what he said, just that she would beat Venus on the slowest surfaces.
It's 50/50 IMO.

new-york
Nov 18th, 2012, 10:51 PM
If it's a shitfest, Maria edges out in 3 due to her superior technique. It is still very ugly on both sides.

If it's an OK day, Maria wins in 2 tight sets. 1 break in each set.

If their are at their best, Venus' peak is much higher. She is faster, more powerful, better at the net, chases more ball, has a better transition game. Maria would only have a second serve on her side but that only could not be a deciding factor on a peak day.

Venus' form fluctuates much more than Maria's but this thread is about who is the best when the stars align.

Planet Venus is.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mczcx3e9Gf1rzzteq.gif

Roookie
Nov 18th, 2012, 10:54 PM
Maria. No question.

DeucesAreWild
Nov 18th, 2012, 10:55 PM
Once upon a time, this used to be a forum for creative and interesting posts.


And more objective I gather? There is no need for the nastiness in these threads when comparing statistics and drawing logical well reasoned conclusions. Regardless of whom would come out "on top" it takes nothing away from anyone's accomplishments.

sweetadri06
Nov 18th, 2012, 11:01 PM
Lindsay is the cleanest ball-striker that the game has probably ever seen, when she was hitting her stride it's hard for anyone to handle her. The reason that Venus and Lindsay had close encounters are because they weren't particularity troubled by ballstrikers, in fact they like playing against pace. Maria is basically Venus 2.0 without the movement, but she does have a better second serve and better technique. On Faster surfaces, Venus will win but on slower Maria will win.

h2h:
Maria def Venus Miami (2005,2007)
Maria def Venus Zurich (2004)
Maria def Venus Rome (2012)
Venus def Maria Wimbledon (2005, 2007)
Venus def Maria Stanford (2009)

Maria beat Venus on medium/slow hardcourts and clay
Venus beat Maria on grass and fast hardcourts

doomsday
Nov 18th, 2012, 11:04 PM
LMAO...I've seen plenty of Vuvurenka's match stats, where she ends up with single digits in winners category and still whoops some scrub's ass, who outwinners her 2 to 1..:lol: Her game is ALL about consistency and counterpunching, which explains her stellar record on hardcourts and not so stellar results on natural surfaces, where you need to generate your own pace

I agree with this.
Maria makes Vika look a lot better than she is, Vika won Beijing with 7 winners in 15 games.
She is a retriever, a counterpuncher who does basically nothing except redirecting shots very well and very deep.
Her consistency is seriously impressive but let's not pretend that she hit players like Maria off the court, her game is not that big to do that.


Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App (http://www.verticalsports.com/mobile)

Matt01
Nov 18th, 2012, 11:40 PM
Once upon a time, this used to be a forum for creative and interesting posts.


When was that?

dsanders06
Nov 18th, 2012, 11:54 PM
Lindsay is the cleanest ball-striker that the game has probably ever seen, when she was hitting her stride it's hard for anyone to handle her. The reason that Venus and Lindsay had close encounters are because they weren't particularity troubled by ballstrikers, in fact they like playing against pace. Maria is basically Venus 2.0 without the movement, but she does have a better second serve and better technique. On Faster surfaces, Venus will win but on slower Maria will win.
...
Maria beat Venus on medium/slow hardcourts and clay
Venus beat Maria on grass and fast hardcourts

Finally, a Venus fan with objectivity :worship:

And more objective I gather? There is no need for the nastiness in these threads when comparing statistics and drawing logical well reasoned conclusions. Regardless of whom would come out "on top" it takes nothing away from anyone's accomplishments.

Who is being nasty? :confused: I'll admit it's frustrating when people like Bandabou and Williamsova misrepresent my arguments (whereas Forehand27, even though I disagree with him, atleast actually argues the points I've made, rather than creating strawmen and claiming I've said things that I haven't), but I've not said a single personal insult in this thread that I'm aware of. :shrug:

Nicolás89
Nov 18th, 2012, 11:59 PM
At her peak Venus only weaknesess during a match were playing against a relative and / or her second serve, Maria has too many that could be exposed even at her peak IMHO that is.

Alejandrawrrr
Nov 19th, 2012, 12:05 AM
Didn't think I'd catch myself doing this again, but ONLY because I will not allow this troll to misquote me and then think that he's "won" the argument.

Typical. :lol: Once again, it's YOU yourself (and other Willytards) who brought up Davenport in the first place as an argument that Maria apparently wouldn't be able to live with Peak Venus. You guys keep trying to shift the goalposts once your arguments have been shot down :lol:

A) I mentioned Davenport alongside Seles and Pierce(see below) as the three less mobile hard hitters Venus played against in her Peak years, as a point of reference to how she would do against Maria. What YOU YOURSELF did and what I object to is you singling out Davenport as though she's some sort of Maria clone( which you undoubtedly did as you saw that of the three players I mentioned, she has the best record against Venus :lol:)

B) Regarding "not being able to live" with Venus at her peak if it's any consolation I actually mentioned that people weren't cutting Marthe enough slack :shrug:

I'll actually say some aren't cutting it enough slack, the way it played in AO08 QF molesting Henin would definitely give Peak Venus fits, regularly going down in two tight sets or three-setters, but Venus would dominate the meetings on grass and win more often than not on hard as well. And against similar players(Seles, Pierce, Davenport) Venus' records against them respectively are 9-1(1-0 on clay,) 7-3(3-0 on clay with 0 sets lost) and 13-14(but 9-1 during her peak of 00-03,) so I see little reason why Sharapova would lead Venus on any surface :shrug:

She is simply an inferior player(no shame in that) but was a fierce battler at her peak and when Venus' level dipped(which it did quite often) Maria would be able to capitalize in a way that only Serena would be able to top.

Anyway, what you say about Lindsay having more compact strokes isn't particularly true, Maria's strokes ARE relatively compact. What makes Maria's game more suited to slow surfaces than Lindsay's is that Maria (even Peak Maria) doesn't have quite as good footwork as Lindsay did. This wouldn't be an issue on slow surfaces where she WOULD have had time to get her feet set in time to load up as much as Lindsay did in her match-up against Venus. :)

Irrelevant. Lindsay's technique was more compact, more sound off of both wings. Compared to Maria, Lindsay was able to take quicker cuts at the ball, even off of powerful or flat/deep balls on quick surfaces like grass and carpet courts. Maria on the other hand fails in that regard(her main kryptonite alongside her game in windy conditions, and a player who won't be bullied/worn down by her willpower.) This is a more extreme example, but that's why Maria gets straight-setted by flat hard hitters at Wimbledon more often than not(Venus x2, Kvitova, Lisicki being the examples fresh in my mind. Amelie doesn't fit this mold, and I admittedly don't even remember how Alla K plays... that's who she lost to in 09 right?)

^ I should also mention a point I only touched on, that Lindsay's groundstrokes were more technically sound overall. Maria's backhand is a laser, but her FH while as destructive as the rest of her game when on, is prone to leaking UEs when rushed, much more so than her generally solid and effective BH. When I speak of her being rushed it's USUALLY the FH wing in particular that is the side to break down.

And on surfaces where Maria does have time to set her feet, she probably has more firepower than Lindsay ever did. Which, considering we've already established that the Venus-Davenport match-up shows that "even" Lindsay could overpower Peak Venus at times..... what argument are you guys going to shift to next? :lol:

Is Lindsay "overpowering" Peak Venus the 1-9 H2H with 4 sets won you were so impressed with earlier? :haha: In that case wow, if Maria met Venus under the same conditions I'd actually venture to guess she might have managed to go 2-8 with some losses being competitive :eek: Is that good enough for you? :lol:

Oh, and suggesting Maria struggles with Vika because she gets overwhelmed by her pace, is a TOTAL misreading of that match-up :lol: Maria has never actually struggled particularly with ballbashers; it's counterpunchers (like Azarenka) who she hates playing.

Well in that case I'm glad I didn't suggest that:
Maria on the other hand due to her longer takeback, HATES players hitting pacey/deep shots at her(Serena's raw pace, Vika's consistent deep redirects anyone?)

Redirecting Maria's pace extremely deep and relatively flat, rushing Maria and thus drawing many errors(forced or unforced) is why Vika has went 4-2 against Masha this year, including two outright humiliations in big finals. Venus didn't redirect pace but at her peak she often hit hard linear shots rather than painting the lines with angles like Serena, Maria and Lindsay do); This isn't always a good thing, in fact it HURT her in many matches against other types of players, but it would no doubt be an asset in bringing Maria's level down. Venus wouldn't be as effective as Vika is, as one will hit many more errors unintentionally hitting hard linear shots than one intentionally rediecting pace deep enough to draw errors, but her other advantages would more than make up the difference and then some.

NashaMasha
Nov 19th, 2012, 12:29 AM
ain't it funny how HasBeenus is supposedly so superior to Pova, yet trails the H2H between the 2 in real life and is no match to Maria on hardcourts (excluding superfast Stanford HC, where she beat up on no-serve Masha, who just returned from career threatening injury and was losing to the likes of Dulko and Cibulkova LOL). It's even funnier knowing that Peak Maria (06' US Open and 08' AO) never played HasBeenus either, so the H2H between the 2 outside of Wimby would most likely be even more one sided...but let the general fools of GM carry on with their peak delusions of the peak world of Ms HasBeenus, while we mere mortals of this world will simply state the obvious facts:
Maria leads the H2H between the two 4-3
Maria is superior to HasBeenus everywhere except on grass, as the match history indicates.
:wavey:


:yeah::worship:

Lachy
Nov 19th, 2012, 12:41 AM
Oh, and suggesting Maria struggles with Vika because she gets overwhelmed by her pace, is a TOTAL misreading of that match-up :lol: Maria has never actually struggled particularly with ballbashers; it's counterpunchers (like Azarenka) who she hates playing.

Exactly :hysteric: That was a good laugh.

]Redirecting Maria's pace extremely deep and relatively flat, rushing Maria and thus drawing many errors(forced or unforced) is why Vika has went 4-2 against Masha this year, including two outright humiliations in big finals. Venus didn't redirect pace but at her peak she often hit hard linear shots rather than painting the lines with angles like Serena, Maria and Lindsay do); This isn't always a good thing, in fact it HURT her in many matches against other types of players, but it would no doubt be an asset in bringing Maria's level down. Venus wouldn't be as effective as Vika is, as one will hit many more errors unintentionally hitting hard linear shots than one intentionally rediecting pace deep enough to draw errors, but her other advantages would more than make up the difference and then some.

So let me get this straight, you're comparing CURRENT Maria (against Azarenka) to PEAK Venus? :spit: We are comparing peaks here. Maria's been far far from her peak in just about every single match against Azarenka this year bar a select few. I seriously doubt 08/06 Maria would have struggled as much. Dead at you trying to compare them like that though.

it-girl
Nov 19th, 2012, 02:24 AM
Peak Venus on every surface, there is no contest here.

Leo St
Nov 19th, 2012, 02:31 AM
^ peak it girl has spoken, close it now

jameshazza
Nov 19th, 2012, 02:34 AM
I feel that Peak Maria would win on medium/slow hardcourts and clay too. :shrug:
Peak Venus would win on fast hardcourts and the grass matchup isn't even debatable.

Charlatan
Nov 19th, 2012, 02:39 AM
2gscYEcatNE

Isn't this supposed to be a period of 2nd Peak Maria (a week before AO 08)? Venus wasn't even peak here yet still beat 6-4, 6-3 :)

HaplessPossum
Nov 19th, 2012, 03:19 AM
2gscYEcatNE

Isn't this supposed to be a period of 2nd Peak Maria (a week before AO 08)? Venus wasn't even peak here yet still beat 6-4, 6-3 :)

That's an exhibition though so it's difficult to judge how hard they were both trying in that match.

I think that Maria would beat Venus in straight sets on clay with Venus winning in three on slow hardcourts, straight sets on fast hardcourts and obviously straight sets on grasscourts.

NashaMasha
Nov 19th, 2012, 03:40 AM
That's an exhibition though so it's difficult to judge how hard they were both trying in that match.

I think that Maria would beat Venus in straight sets on clay with Venus winning in three on slow hardcourts, straight sets on fast hardcourts and obviously straight sets on grasscourts.

I wasn't aware that peak form players show on exhibitions:lol:

TPlaya8
Nov 19th, 2012, 04:27 AM
ain't it funny how HasBeenus is supposedly so superior to Pova, yet trails the H2H between the 2 in real life and is no match to Maria on hardcourts (excluding superfast Stanford HC, where she beat up on no-serve Masha, who just returned from career threatening injury and was losing to the likes of Dulko and Cibulkova LOL). It's even funnier knowing that Peak Maria (06' US Open and 08' AO) never played HasBeenus either, so the H2H between the 2 outside of Wimby would most likely be even more one sided...but let the general fools of GM carry on with their peak delusions of the peak world of Ms HasBeenus, while we mere mortals of this world will simply state the obvious facts:
Maria leads the H2H between the two 4-3
Maria is superior to HasBeenus everywhere except on grass, as the match history indicates.
:wavey:

I want to know why you and everyone else also discredits Venus' win over Sharapova at Stanford 2009 when it is Sharapova's 5th tournament back and her 18th match

But don't do the same with Venus regarding the 2007 Miami when it was Venus' 3rd Tournament back and 9th match since Wimbeldon 2006

And also with their 2012 Rome meeting when its Venus' 4th Tournament back and 15th match after discovering she had Sjrogrens?

If you discredit Venus' 2009 win you have to discred those two Sharapova wins and

while you talk about who Sharapova was losing to at the time that Venus won....well same thing with Venus who wasn't beating Venus in 2004 when they played in Zurich.

If you going to make claims about injuries and form you gotta be fair and do it for both players not just in Sharapova's favor!

NashaMasha
Nov 19th, 2012, 05:13 AM
I want to know why you and everyone else also discredits Venus' win over Sharapova at Stanford 2009 when it is Sharapova's 5th tournament back and her 18th match

But don't do the same with Venus regarding the 2007 Miami when it was Venus' 3rd Tournament back and 9th match since Wimbeldon 2006

And also with their 2012 Rome meeting when its Venus' 4th Tournament back and 15th match after discovering she had Sjrogrens?

If you discredit Venus' 2009 win you have to discred those two Sharapova wins and

while you talk about who Sharapova was losing to at the time that Venus won....well same thing with Venus who wasn't beating Venus in 2004 when they played in Zurich.

If you going to make claims about injuries and form you gotta be fair and do it for both players not just in Sharapova's favor!

Masha was struggling with shoulder injury in 2007, she retired in Tokyo and played quite crappy the whole season , returning to her best form only in the end of the year ,it was the worst season of pre-surgery Pova

so it was not-peak Pova vs not-peak Beenus , both p

For those, who want some fun

check thread of 2007 )))

pre-match Venus-Maria in Miami thread http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=291539

TPlaya8
Nov 19th, 2012, 11:14 AM
Masha was struggling with shoulder injury in 2007, she retired in Tokyo and played quite crappy the whole season , returning to her best form only in the end of the year ,it was the worst season of pre-surgery Pova

so it was not-peak Pova vs not-peak Beenus , both p

For those, who want some fun

check thread of 2007 )))

pre-match Venus-Maria in Miami thread http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=291539

So basically you saying that the reason their '07 match is different is because Sharapova who in the last two Grand Slams had won one and made the final and was #1 in the world wasn't in form against a player who didn't even play in either of those tournaments and had only played 9 matches since Wimbledon retiring in one of them.

Well by that same logic '09 was one of Venus' worse if not the worst summer harcourt seasons of her entire career but you still have a disclaimer on that win.

And you still haven't told me why yall don't apply the same '09 logic that goes against Venus' win in their Rome m atch from this year which according to yall is Peak ClayPova vs a Venus who has just returned with a autoimmune disease on her worst surface with less time, matches, and tournaments back than Sharapova had when they met in 2009?

I don't have a problem with identifying the different circumstances of each match because I believe those have an effect on the, match being played atthat time but Please if you have disclaimers and exceptions use them for both players not just in Sharapova's favor!

NashaMasha
Nov 19th, 2012, 11:26 AM
So basically you saying that the reason their '07 match is different is because Sharapova who in the last two Grand Slams had won one and made the final and was #1 in the world wasn't in form against a player who didn't even play in either of those tournaments and had only played 9 matches since Wimbledon retiring in one of them.

Well by that same logic '09 was one of Venus' worse if not the worst summer harcourt seasons of her entire career but you still have a disclaimer on that win.

And you still haven't told me why yall don't apply the same '09 logic that goes against Venus' win in their Rome m atch from this year which according to yall is Peak ClayPova vs a Venus who has just returned with a autoimmune disease on her worst surface with less time, matches, and tournaments back than Sharapova had when they met in 2009?

Please if you have disclaimers and exceptions use them for both players not just in Sharapova's favor!

2009- ShoulderPova
2012 - SjorgenVenus

all the rest matches should be counted

in 2007 Sharapova was playing crappy , was serveless , making number of DF-s, Venus was considered a favourite in that match by almost everyone before the match

TPlaya8
Nov 19th, 2012, 11:35 AM
2009- ShoulderPova
2012 - SjorgenVenus

all the rest matches should be counted

in 2007 Sharapova was playing crappy , was serveless , making number of DF-s, Venus was considered a favourite in that match by almost everyone before the match

Just to be clear are you saying Sharapova's form at the time evens out the fact that Venus was playing only her 7th match back from wrist injury and her 9th match since Wimbledon '06?

Joelina
Nov 19th, 2012, 11:46 AM
Peak Venus would have won only on grass but Maria on any other surface, the only wins against Maria has Venus on grass and in that irrelevant Stanford

NashaMasha
Nov 19th, 2012, 12:37 PM
Just to be clear are you saying Sharapova's form at the time evens out the fact that Venus was playing only her 7th match back from wrist injury and her 9th match since Wimbledon '06?


Sharapova played her first tournament this year in Melbourne after ankle injury , but everybody on this forum is still mocking her for that loss and nobody (including me) is disclaimin that loss.

But situation when player not totally recovered, actually playing injured or without ability to use all "weapons" like Sharapova in 2009 or Venus in 2012 and is playing is different to "not having much practice after returning back in tour after injury"

TPlaya8
Nov 19th, 2012, 01:33 PM
Sharapova played her first tournament this year in Melbourne after ankle injury , but everybody on this forum is still mocking her for that loss and nobody (including me) is disclaimin that loss.

But situation when player not totally recovered, actually playing injured or without ability to use all "weapons" like Sharapova in 2009 or Venus in 2012 and is playing is different to "not having much practice after returning back in tour after injury"

So first it was Venus being the favorite before the match and Sharapova in bad form.

Now you saying Venus just didn't have enough practice after coming back to tour as the reason you don't use the same logic you use to disclaim the '09 Stanford? You are kind of switching up on your reasoning now.

So now you are diagnosing Venus and say she was in a better position when she came back in 2007 than Sharapova when she came back in 2009 even though Venus only played 2 matches in 2006 after Wimbledon one of those she hurt her wrtist she could only hit one hand backhands and then she came back 3 weeks before Miami

But Sharapova who played Venus in Stanford in July after being back since May didn't have enough practice and time on the court?

I'm just trying to understand your logic here and apply it top both playersin all cases and not just in matches where its convenient for your argument

NashaMasha
Nov 19th, 2012, 01:43 PM
So now you are diagnosing Venus and say she was in a better position when she came back in 2007 than Sharapova when she came back in 2009 even though Venus only played 2 matches in 2006 after Wimbledon one of those she hurt her wrtist she could only hit one hand backhands and then she came back 3 weeks before Miami

did she play Miami with injured wrist? did this injury affected her game?

Sharapova's game in 2009 was seriously affected by her injury , she couldn't use her serve ,she had to learn new service motion , it's different situations

TPlaya8
Nov 19th, 2012, 01:46 PM
And to be completely honest you showed that thread to say that ppl on this board considered Venus the favorite in that 2007 Miami match but the tennis experts and commentaries did not share the board's opinion. The tennis experts and commentators have only considered Venus the favorite in one of their match ups and that was the Stanford match in 2009.

Even at Wimbledon 2007 only Brad Gilbert picked Venus over Maria (i know this your fact because I have Wimbledon coverage on tape from that year and have watched it countless times) even after the way she best her in 2005 because of how poor Venus played on the round before and how Sharapova at the time was playing in good form her DF's didn't come at Wimbledon that year until that match with Venus!

TPlaya8
Nov 19th, 2012, 01:50 PM
did she play Miami with injured wrist? did this injury affected her game?

Sharapova's game in 2009 was seriously affected by her injury , she couldn't use her serve ,she had to learn new service motion , it's different situations

And Venus' backhand has not been the same since and her forehand had actually became more of a weapon. Venus use to run around forehands to hit a backhand since 2007 she'll do the opposite!

NashaMasha
Nov 19th, 2012, 01:51 PM
Miami match but the tennis experts and commentaries did not share the board's opinion.

Masha played poor before that match in Miami, her serve wasn't clicking and she was error-machine, lost to Zvonareva in IW , pls show me who picked her among specialists....

dsanders06
Nov 19th, 2012, 03:11 PM
2gscYEcatNE

Isn't this supposed to be a period of 2nd Peak Maria (a week before AO 08)? Venus wasn't even peak here yet still beat 6-4, 6-3 :)

That's an exhibition though so it's difficult to judge how hard they were both trying in that match. .

Exactly :lol: A year before that, Maria lost to Kim at that exhibition, a couple of weeks before she waxed Kim at the Australian Open even while in doublefault mode.

I mean if we're including exhibitions, I might as well mention that one in Malyasia* or somewhere a couple of weeks before the AO2010, where Maria even when in shitty enough form to lose to Kirilenko, managed to beat Venus :happy:

* ETA: Just found out it was Thailand :lol:

AcesHigh
Nov 19th, 2012, 03:16 PM
dsanders is disqualified from having any credibility on this topic.
He has said in the past he wasn't even following tennis when Venus was at her peak. And I'm guessing (i can't tell because I have him blocked) he still be leaves that Sharapova's defense is better than Venus's was :spit:

dsanders06
Nov 19th, 2012, 03:21 PM
dsanders is disqualified from having any credibility on this topic.
He has said in the past he wasn't even following tennis when Venus was at her peak. And I'm guessing (i can't tell because I have him blocked) he still be leaves that Sharapova's defense is better than Venus's was :spit:

Never said that at any point :wavey: Keep on attacking strawmen because you don't have strong enough counter-claims to my actual arguments if you want, though.

dsanders06
Nov 19th, 2012, 03:50 PM
You guys suggesting Peak Venus would beat Peak Maria on slow surfaces should watch this highlights video of their match in Miami 2005.

And yes, I concede that Maria is closer to her peak here than Venus is (though it should be noted that this is one of Venus's better non-grass tournaments since 2003, seeing as she was on the high of beating Serena for the first time in 4 years in the very match before this), but it still gives an illustration of roughly how this match-up would work on these surfaces peak vs. peak:


PyzGT_XUKeM

Particularly watch the points at 1:42, 3:19, 4:19, 4:58, 6:25, 7:00. All these points, Venus hits serves/returns/groundstrokes that would've been clean winners or unreturnables on a super-quick surface, but because the surface is so slow, Maria is able to scrape them back into play -- and as soon as the rally gets to neutral, Maria becomes a heavy favourite due to how much more consistent she is in medium/long rallies. Even though Venus is able to chase down a lot of Maria's shots, the placement of her defensive shots is just far too tame and predictable to knock Maria off her stride or stop her doing what she wants to do with the ball.

And, btw, when people talk about Maria being more consistent than Peak Venus, they don't JUST mean she makes less errors - it also refers to the fact Peak Maria's average rally ball would be much more purposeful than Peak Venus's, typically being placed much closer to the baseline and/or using the width of the court more. Venus, even when at her very peak, her typical gameplan would be to try and blitz the point with 1 or 2 huge shots, but if that didn't work, her rally ball would become much more tentative -- particularly her forehand would start dropping a LOT of short shots, because it just was never technically capable of hitting huge shot after huge shot in long rallies. Peak Maria not only didn't have those technical glitches in her strokes, she also would have eaten up those short balls that Peak Venus would supply her with. Peak Venus could only have beaten Peak Maria if she kept the points as short as possible and used her more explosive first strike - she'd have been able to do it on grass and superquick hardcourts, but on slow surfaces, the surface just doesn't give you enough traction to be able to keep EVERY point short no matter how powerful you are, as Venus herself found out with her total LACK of big wins over top players on slow surfaces even when at her absolute peak.

So yeah, that Miami match is roughly how I'd expect a Peak Venus-Peak Maria match to pan out on slow hardcourts, except with Peaknus's superior serve getting her a few more games than she did in this match or maybe even sneaking out a set. And it would be the same story on clay to an even greater extent.

forehand27
Nov 19th, 2012, 04:11 PM
Even for those who insist that Maria is better on slow courts, lets put it this way. The 2000-2003 Venus would win every single match with Maria on grass, fast hard courts, and probably indoors. The 2000-2003 vs whatever people feel peak Maria is, Venus would still win "some" matches on clay and slower hard courts. So peak to peak Venus would still have the overall edge. The gap between the two on faster surfaces is enormous, much more than any preposed gap on slower ones. Maria is kind of a jack of all trades but master of none as far as surfaces go. She has the career slam, but she hasnt ever defended a slam title, won 2 slams in the same year, won a slam in back to back year. She isnt even close to the best player of her own era on any surface. Grass she is only about 5th or 6th behind all of Venus, Serena, Davenport, Mauresmo, probably soon Kvitova. She isnt even really any better than Henin on grass TBH, her only argument is the Wimbledon title which Henin doesnt have, otherwise it would be a no brainer Henin >>>> Sharapova on grass. Clay I am not sure where she is now but everyone outside of Henin sucks basically the last 15 years on clay, probably something like 5th behind Serena, Kuznetsova, and Ivanovic or so. On hard courts she also isnt top 5 overall considering Serena, Henin, Clijsters, Davenport, and Venus.

dsanders06
Nov 19th, 2012, 04:15 PM
Even for those who insist that Maria is better on slow courts, lets put it this way. The 2000-2003 Venus would win every single match with Maria on grass, fast hard courts, and probably indoors. The 2000-2003 vs whatever people feel peak Maria is, Venus would still win "some" matches on clay and slower hard courts. So peak to peak Venus would still have the overall edge.

Nope, don't accept that atall.

The gap between the two on faster surfaces is enormous, much more than any preposed gap on slower ones.

I'll concede that the gap between Venus and Maria on grass, is bigger than the lead Maria has over Venus on any surface (or ever will have), but the lead Maria has over Venus on slow hardcourts is just as big as the one Venus has over Maria on quick hardcourts, and the lead Maria has over Venus on clay will probably be even bigger by the end of her career. :shrug:

forehand27
Nov 19th, 2012, 04:22 PM
The gap between Venus and Maria's U.S Open records are atleast as large as the gap between their Australian Open records, and Venus does better than Maria by a huge margin in the 2nd biggest slow hard court event- Miami, while Venus does better than Maria in all fast court events. This without even considering Venus peaked at a much tougher time for the womens game than Maria. How you conclude the gap on slower hard courts is as much as the gap on faster ones is beyond me. Add to that you admit the gap on grass is more than the gap on clay, and more than it will ever be, and it is clear Venus overall comes out ahead.

Anyway I am tired of arguing about this, the poll results speak for themselves I think. The general consensus seems strong, peak Venus owns all except peak Serena. Peak Venus is even crushing Henin on the peak thread I created, and Henin is by far one of the 3 dominant players of the era along with Serena and Venus, so if even she falls well short, nobody else will have a chance.

MegaDethly
Nov 19th, 2012, 04:23 PM
Never said that at any point :wavey: Keep on attacking strawmen because you don't have strong enough counter-claims to my actual arguments if you want, though.

He has you on block so why are you even addressing him directly you thick troll?

dsanders06
Nov 19th, 2012, 05:46 PM
The gap between Venus and Maria's U.S Open records are atleast as large as the gap between their Australian Open records, and Venus does better than Maria by a huge margin in the 2nd biggest slow hard court event- Miami, while Venus does better than Maria in all fast court events. This without even considering Venus peaked at a much tougher time for the womens game than Maria. How you conclude the gap on slower hard courts is as much as the gap on faster ones is beyond me. Add to that you admit the gap on grass is more than the gap on clay, and more than it will ever be, and it is clear Venus overall comes out ahead.

No, because even though Venus is better on her best surface, than Maria is on HER best surface, Maria is better on her WORST surfaces than Venus is on her WORST surfaces. That should be obvious :shrug: I mean Maria has made the semis atleast 3 times at EVERY Grand Slam, whereas Venus has only made the semis twice at the Australian and ONCE at RG :rolls:



He has you on block so why are you even addressing him directly you thick troll?

Honey, after 3 years here you're surely not naive enough to still think people actually use ignore lists? :lol: You only have to look at how, throughout this thread, AcesHigh and Williamsova mysteriously start being able to see my posts when they want to reply to something, despite me apparently "being on their ignore lists".

bandabou
Nov 19th, 2012, 06:19 PM
:lol: We ain't gonna mind, dsanders. There was a time, even as late as '10 when he'd still insist that Maria's better than Serena off the ground, that Serena didn't have movement...:lol:

And all this is Vee's own damned fault. Losing to an inferior version of her so many times.:(

heavyhorse
Nov 19th, 2012, 06:21 PM
Peak Venus wins on any court (including Clay) with ease.

forehand27
Nov 19th, 2012, 06:30 PM
No, because even though Venus is better on her best surface, than Maria is on HER best surface, Maria is better on her WORST surfaces than Venus is on her WORST surfaces. That should be obvious :shrug: I mean Maria has made the semis atleast 3 times at EVERY Grand Slam, whereas Venus has only made the semis twice at the Australian and ONCE at RG :rolls:


Like I already said it is better to to the best or one of the best on all your better surfaces than to be a jack of all trades and master of none like Maria is as far as surfaces go. Venus has a huge legacy at Wimbledon and is considered a top 3 grass courter of all time. Maria is probably not even top 30 all time on any one surface, and might not even be top 5 of her own era on any surface at this point. Venus is also not just a grass courter. She has a fabulous record at the U.S Open which is far superior to Maria's at any slam at this point, and despite supposably being this sucky slow hard courters has an incredible record at the Miami event, the biggest non slam event outside the WTA Championships or Olympics, and again far superior to Maria's record at any singular major event. Not to mention her Olympic record. Venus during the period she was considered hands down the best player in the World from mid 2000-early 2002 not only had by far the best grass record but also clearly had the best hard court record of any women too. This has never been the case for Maria. So I would much rather be Venus and have incredible records at atleast half the major events, and be remembered as an all time legend at one, and have 2 years I was considered by far the best grass and hard court (despite not winning the Australian) player in the World, then won only once at each spread out over 8 years, and be far from the best player of the era on any surface, and also never been the best player in the World.

doomsday
Nov 19th, 2012, 06:44 PM
Like I already said it is better to to the best or one of the best on all your better surfaces than to be a jack of all trades and master of none like Maria is as far as surfaces go. Venus has a huge legacy at Wimbledon and is considered a top 3 grass courter of all time. Maria is probably not even top 30 all time on any one surface, and might not even be top 5 of her own era on any surface at this point. Venus is also not just a grass courter. She has a fabulous record at the U.S Open which is far superior to Maria's at any slam at this point, and despite supposably being this sucky slow hard courters has an incredible record at the Miami event, the biggest non slam event outside the WTA Championships or Olympics, and again far superior to Maria's record at any singular major event. Not to mention her Olympic record. Venus during the period she was considered hands down the best player in the World from mid 2000-early 2002 not only had by far the best grass record but also clearly had the best hard court record of any women too. This has never been the case for Maria. So I would much rather be Venus and have incredible records at atleast half the major events, and be remembered as an all time legend at one, and have 2 years I was considered by far the best grass and hard court (despite not winning the Australian) player in the World, then won only once at each spread out over 8 years, and be far from the best player of the era on any surface, and also never been the best player in the World.

Why are you guys already comparing their career anyway. Maria is 7 years younger and already achieved the career slam, come back to us when her career is over this is seriously to pointless to write her off like that especially when we know that she is only 25 and still a big contender for majors titles in years to come.

Miss Amor
Nov 19th, 2012, 06:54 PM
When at peak- Venus on all surfaces.

On a good/average day - Venus on grass and faster HC, probably Martha on clay and rebound ace.


On a bad day - let's not go there. Both are unwatchable when having a bad day


Sent from my Galaxy Note II using VerticalSports.Com App

i.will2
Nov 19th, 2012, 07:09 PM
:lol: We ain't gonna mind, dsanders. There was a time, even as late as '10 when he'd still insist that Maria's better than Serena off the ground, that Serena didn't have movement...:lol:

And all this is Vee's own damned fault. Losing to an inferior version of her so many times.:(

I will say that is probably the most frustrating part of Venus's professional record. She almost has the "disease" you see in sports teams where she often plays to the level of her competition. Meaning when she has a big match or is playing against a top ranked player she typically raises her focus and her play elevates as well. However when she is playing a young upstart or even journey-woman she can be susceptible to an upset. I'm not sure why this is the case though.

To your point I have always felt that Venus's record at Roland Garros and even the Australian Open is indicative of this. She wins the matches she's supposed to on her best or faster surfaces, at her best only Serena in my opinion can even come close to her in that scenario, but on the slower courts its almost as if anything can happen if she isn't playing well.

This I would say is the MAIN difference between Sharapova and Venus. Maria isn't going to come out on court and do very much different depending on who she plays. Her game is 1 dimensional and she doesn't have many options on constructing winning points. This benefits Maria at times though because if she doubles down on this and is playing well shes going to win most matches even on her worst surface of clay.Venus on the other hand isn't as one dimensional as people try to claim and her "best" game adjusts depending on the surface as well as the opponent.

All I'm saying is Venus is the better player her upside is MUCH larger than Maria's and its been reflected in the voting for this poll. Would Maria beat Venus on a fast surface if they met at their peak? No. Would Venus win every match on clay or slow courts against Sharapova if they met at their peak No, but neither would Maria.

doomsday
Nov 19th, 2012, 07:20 PM
I will say that is probably the most frustrating part of Venus's professional record. She almost has the "disease" you see in sports teams where she often plays to the level of her competition. Meaning when she has a big match or is playing against a top ranked player she typically raises her focus and her play elevates as well. However when she is playing a young upstart or even journey-woman she can be susceptible to an upset. I'm not sure why this is the case though.

Is this a joke ? She was outplayed in all loses to Maria except that in Miami 2007 when they were both crappy.

Your point could be made with her matches over someone like Jankovic, where clearly Venus was dragging herself into a shitty level most of the time.

bandabou
Nov 19th, 2012, 07:29 PM
Why are you guys already comparing their career anyway. Maria is 7 years younger and already achieved the career slam, come back to us when her career is over this is seriously to pointless to write her off like that especially when we know that she is only 25 and still a big contender for majors titles in years to come.

Already?! She ONLY has 4 majors...great for her that they happen to be all four, but please..stop making it like she'sa mega GOAT or something. :lol:

forehand27
Nov 19th, 2012, 07:34 PM
I agree with doomsday in one sense. It is too early to tell if she could reach 7 majors like Venus. I dont think she will but she would atleast have a fighting, say 20% chance, of reaching something like that. However even if she did reach 7 majors it is safe to say she will never have a legacy on a surface like Venus has on grass or Henin has on clay, or probably even Clijsters at the U.S Open. I think all, including even Maria fans, will concede as well that she will never be a dominant player in the vein of Venus of 2000-2001, yes even if she didnt win an Australian or French she was THE women both those years, she won 7 of the 13 biggest tournaments, she owned everyone on tour, and was undisputably above all others and the person to beat. So even if she were to win 7 majors I dont think anyone would think of Maria as better than Venus even then for those reasons. Not to mention the current era of players are mostly forgettable.

Monzanator
Nov 19th, 2012, 07:44 PM
Already?! She ONLY has 4 majors...great for her that they happen to be all four, but please..stop making it like she'sa mega GOAT or something. :lol:

Four Slam Wonder :spit: All won by luck, opponent's injuries, mediocre play and cakewalk draws :bounce: Bitch should excuse every tennis fan for living! :fiery:

i.will2
Nov 19th, 2012, 07:52 PM
Is this a joke ? She was outplayed in all loses to Maria except that in Miami 2007 when they were both crappy.

Your point could be made with her matches over someone like Jankovic, where clearly Venus was dragging herself into a shitty level most of the time.

LOL I was mostly commenting on her record against inferior players...if you think Maria fits that description then...:wavey:

Monzanator
Nov 19th, 2012, 07:57 PM
LOL I was mostly commenting on her record against inferior players...if you think Maria fits that description then...:wavey:

You're new here so you need to learn the rule #1 of GM, anybody named Williams is superior to any other player on the planet, period :worship:

doomsday
Nov 19th, 2012, 08:03 PM
LOL I was mostly commenting on her record against inferior players...if you think Maria fits that description then...:wavey:

I don't.