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View Full Version : How are the European protests/strikes going?


HippityHop
Nov 15th, 2012, 09:22 PM
Have they calmed down? Some of the news reports here in the USA make it look like Europe is on the verge of social collapse. :eek:

Williamsser
Nov 15th, 2012, 09:47 PM
They want more bailouts from US taxpayers.

Sammo
Nov 15th, 2012, 09:50 PM
Spain is a fucking mess, just take a look at this:

zW2BMVBxc08

Riot police beating a 13 year-old boy, and then they beat a girl who confronts them for beating the boy

Olórin
Nov 15th, 2012, 09:56 PM
They want more bailouts from US taxpayers.

Hmm, if you want to play that game: it sounds about right since it was your moronically under-regulated, nigh fraudulent sub-prime mortgage market which contaminated the European markets and cost millions of European people their jobs.

HippityHop
Nov 15th, 2012, 10:42 PM
Hmm, if you want to play that game: it sounds about right since it was your moronically under-regulated, nigh fraudulent sub-prime mortgage market which contaminated the European markets and cost millions of European people their jobs.

Are you sure about that? Germany seems to be doing pretty well, I hear. Why is that?

C. Drone
Nov 15th, 2012, 10:47 PM
Spoiled western-europeans.
Not like police forces have any clue what are they doing.

Gawain
Nov 15th, 2012, 11:23 PM
Germany seems to be doing pretty well, I hear. Why is that?

Hartz IV

Expat
Nov 16th, 2012, 03:19 AM
Hmm, if you want to play that game: it sounds about right since it was your moronically under-regulated, nigh fraudulent sub-prime mortgage market which contaminated the European markets and cost millions of European people their jobs.

AFAIK the vast majority of European bank loans went to Greece, Spain or Latin America and not in the USA. And one more thing European banks are even more loaded with debt even pre-crisis and in the red than American banks.


BTW HippityHop strikes are regular in Europe. So no big difference from whatever is going on till now.

Williamsser
Nov 16th, 2012, 12:07 PM
Hmm, if you want to play that game: it sounds about right since it was your moronically under-regulated, nigh fraudulent sub-prime mortgage market which contaminated the European markets and cost millions of European people their jobs.

Socialism caused the EU mess, not capitalism.

European Socialism: Why America Doesn't Want It

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/10/25/european-socialism-why-america-doesnt-want-it/

Denmark has the highest total tax pressure in the world and is towering far above the European average. It also has the smallest private sector in Europe, one that supports one of the biggest public sectors. Add to that a generous entitlement system allowing unemployed and unemployable citizens an income well above that achieved by full time employees in the private sector in many European countries, and you will observe a need for tax revenues nearly unmatched anywhere else in the world.

This is not surprising, since more than half of the adult population is either working in the public sector or living on some form of social transfer payment. Out of a total population of 5.6 million, a little more than 2 million are pensioners, unemployed, sick or on social transfer payments for other reasons. Around 800,000 are employed in the public sector. There are only around 1.8 million that are not directly dependent on state payments in some shape or form. But even among this group, there is high focus on cheap, subsidized childcare, free health care, child bonus payments, subsidized housing and an infinite number of other ways to secure some additional income from the state.

The recent rise of socialists that continue to hand out huge public expenditures combined with the broadly supported tax reform is going nowhere in terms of really moving the dial between public and private sectors. Even more, it highlights the fundamental challenges of a social welfare society, and the extreme vulnerability of business and capitalism operating within it.

So if there is no hope for reforms of the welfare society, the next question must be whether capitalism can exist or co-exist in the long-term in a social welfare state. Essentially, the answer has to be no. A social welfare society that wants to embrace and benefit from some form of real capitalism in the long run will need to: set very stringent parameters for the amount of welfare available to its citizens as a percentage of GDP; set a maximum limit for taxation and government debt levels; secure strong fundamental incentives written into a constitution; and, secure basic negative rights for its individual citizens.

In addition, it will need to embrace a different rhetoric and give up on equality of outcome as a key objective. It needs to welcome, encourage and praise large contributors to the economy rather than vilify them and berate them for populist purposes. It needs to demand responsibility from the citizens for their own economic situation and be very firm on abuse or exploitation of public support or services. It needs to stop victimizing large groups of the society and stop pricing them out of employment through minimum wages and similar initiatives. It needs to stop its politicians corrupting the democratic process through bribing particular voter groups to gain power.

Growing up in Denmark, I’ve seen this picture before. If America doesn’t want socialism its people must wake up and heed the lessons being played out in counties around the world – like Denmark.. If America doesn’t want socialism it must seek politicians and policies that allow the individual to have more liberty and freedom. If America doesn’t want socialism it must act now. But America must first answer the questions…. Does America Want Socialism?

thalle
Nov 16th, 2012, 12:46 PM
You do know that socialism is not the ideology or political direction of Denmark right?

And in time of crisis, I'd much rather live in a country with a welfare state, where I know, no matter how much all the big states around the world fuck up, I'll ALWAYS have a roof over my head, food and an education.

Elwin.
Nov 16th, 2012, 12:49 PM
You do know that socialism is not the ideology or political direction of Denmark right?

And in time of crisis, I'd much rather live in a country with a welfare state, where I know, no matter how much all the big states around the world fuck up, I'll ALWAYS have a roof over my head, food and an education.

This :lol:

HippityHop
Nov 16th, 2012, 01:04 PM
Hartz IV


I had to look this up.

I guess that if you make the hard decisions before things get too bad, it makes for less pain later on.

HippityHop
Nov 16th, 2012, 01:05 PM
You do know that socialism is not the ideology or political direction of Denmark right?

And in time of crisis, I'd much rather live in a country with a welfare state, where I know, no matter how much all the big states around the world fuck up, I'll ALWAYS have a roof over my head, food and an education.

Is this a joke? :confused:

deadparrot
Nov 16th, 2012, 01:08 PM
LOL, the author of that piece is a Libertarian nutjob who moved to the tax haven of Switzerland in 2010, went on a tour of Conservative television shows in the US to slander his native country and had his company (Saxo Bank) print 10,000 copies of Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged so he could hand them out to politicians and business partners. His bank is also the sponsor of a cycling team led by the self-admitted doping offender Bjarne Riis and has been under investigation for stock manipulation. Not exactly a neutral observer :lol:

Dave.
Nov 16th, 2012, 02:45 PM
You do know that socialism is not the ideology or political direction of Denmark right?

And in time of crisis, I'd much rather live in a country with a welfare state, where I know, no matter how much all the big states around the world fuck up, I'll ALWAYS have a roof over my head, food and an education.

Europe, Africa, they're countries didn't you know? :o


LOL, the author of that piece is a Libertarian nutjob who moved to the tax haven of Switzerland in 2010, went on a tour of Conservative television shows in the US to slander his native country and had his company (Saxo Bank) print 10,000 copies of Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged so he could hand them out to politicians and business partners. His bank is also the sponsor of a cycling team led by the self-admitted doping offender Bjarne Riis and has been under investigation for stock manipulation. Not exactly a neutral observer :lol:

Makes sense. :lol: The article starts from a position where free healthcare, minimum wage, subsidised housing etc. are inherently bad things and somehow obstruct "liberty and freedom". Of course, it depends whose liberty and freedom we're concerned with here, that of the majority of Americans or that of a tiny wealthy elite.

Sam L
Nov 16th, 2012, 08:39 PM
LOL, the author of that piece is a Libertarian nutjob who moved to the tax haven of Switzerland in 2010, went on a tour of Conservative television shows in the US to slander his native country and had his company (Saxo Bank) print 10,000 copies of Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged so he could hand them out to politicians and business partners. His bank is also the sponsor of a cycling team led by the self-admitted doping offender Bjarne Riis and has been under investigation for stock manipulation. Not exactly a neutral observer :lol:

That's why I can't stand Libertarians more than any other group. They're all nutjobs.

TheHangover
Nov 16th, 2012, 09:02 PM
They want more bailouts from US taxpayers.

what the hell are you talking about, USA debt is

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/debtiv.gif

and China holds your bonds

and your S&P Fitch and Moody's gamble on people's lives

olivero
Nov 17th, 2012, 01:27 PM
Spain is a fucking mess, just take a look at this:

zW2BMVBxc08

Riot police beating a 13 year-old boy, and then they beat a girl who confronts them for beating the boy

this is fuckin disgusting

HippityHop
Nov 17th, 2012, 02:37 PM
what the hell are you talking about, USA debt is

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/debtiv.gif

and China holds your bonds

and your S&P Fitch and Moody's gamble on people's lives

Not true in the way that I think you mean it.

The biggest holders of US debt are American individuals, institutions and Social Security. Now it's true that other countries hold a lot of our debt. But that's because we are the cleanest dirty shirt in the hamper. :)

Where else are they gonna go, Zimbabwe? Greece? Spain? :tape:

TheHangover
Nov 17th, 2012, 05:57 PM
^^ the part of ur debt that china holds is enough to decide ur destiny. USA are not as relevant as in the 90s

Williamsser
Nov 17th, 2012, 09:25 PM
^^ the part of ur debt that china holds is enough to decide ur destiny. USA are not as relevant as in the 90s

Then, we all agree that USA should no longer give EU money, like USA did early this year, agree?

Gawain
Nov 17th, 2012, 10:01 PM
Like we will ever be able to compete with Chinese or Indian terms of employment.
Unskilled labor jobs (such as automotive industry) will vanish in Europe.

HippityHop
Nov 17th, 2012, 10:12 PM
^^ the part of ur debt that china holds is enough to decide ur destiny. USA are not as relevant as in the 90s

We heard the same thing about Japan a couple of decades ago.

There's an old saying: If you owe the bank fifty thousand dollars, you're in trouble. If you owe the bank 50 million dollars, the bank is in trouble. Deal with it. ;)

ALIEN
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:14 PM
Still bitter that Romney lost? Get over it!

HippityHop
Nov 18th, 2012, 06:18 PM
Still bitter that Romney lost? Get over it!

WTF are you talking about? :confused:

azdaja
Nov 18th, 2012, 06:50 PM
Is this a joke? :confused:
i don't know what part of that post you are thinking about since none of that is a joke or remotely could be. denmark is a capitalist country and the vast majority of people in europe support the present system where the most vulnerable people will get support. also, americans who think that europe depends on the aid from the us are just :facepalm:

it is also true that the us is not as relevant as in the 90's. which doesn't mean it's irrelevant, mind.

HippityHop
Nov 18th, 2012, 11:05 PM
i don't know what part of that post you are thinking about since none of that is a joke or remotely could be. denmark is a capitalist country and the vast majority of people in europe support the present system where the most vulnerable people will get support. also, americans who think that europe depends on the aid from the us are just :facepalm:

it is also true that the us is not as relevant as in the 90's. which doesn't mean it's irrelevant, mind.

The part of the post that said there will always be a "roof over my head, food and education". From what I'm seeing on the news, Greece in particular, is having trouble providing these things to its citizens. Now if my information is incorrect, please enlighten me.

Governments get their money from people who pay taxes. If not enough people are paying taxes to support all the "free" stuff, that "free" stuff goes away. I guess the government could always print money. But then the money has no value and the country is still up the creek.

ALIEN
Nov 18th, 2012, 11:20 PM
WTF are you talking about? :confused:

I'm talking about some users from the US who quote, on multiple threads, from republican affiliated sources,and for some reason they feel the need to bash Europe even though they barely know anything about it. And everybody knows this all thing with the economic crisis started in USA back in 2008.

jameshazza
Nov 18th, 2012, 11:24 PM
Haven't seen much word of this. Although I sometimes feel that the British media is the most censored in the world.
The EU is made up of Police states anyway, can't see the protesters keeping their heads intact for much longer.

HippityHop
Nov 18th, 2012, 11:27 PM
I'm talking about some users from the US who quote, on multiple threads, from republican affiliated sources,and for some reason they feel the need to bash Europe even though they barely know anything about it. And everybody knows this all thing with the economic crisis started in USA back in 2008.

Well, I suppose that some people in the thread are "bashing" Europe. However I started the thread for information since many of the news sources here made it seem like Europe (except for a few countries) is is meltdown mode.

But I still don't understand what that has to do with the Presidential election.

HippityHop
Nov 18th, 2012, 11:31 PM
Haven't seen much word of this. Although I sometimes feel that the British media is the most censored in the world.
The EU is made up of Police states anyway, can't see the protesters keeping their heads intact for much longer.

I don't know if the EU is made up of police states or not. However, I do believe that the EU is a "forced" construct that is doomed to break apart. I might be wrong though.

ALIEN
Nov 18th, 2012, 11:34 PM
The part of the post that said there will always be a "roof over my head, food and education". From what I'm seeing on the news, Greece in particular, is having trouble providing these things to its citizens. Now if my information is incorrect, please enlighten me.

Governments get their money from people who pay taxes. If not enough people are paying taxes to support all the "free" stuff, that "free" stuff goes away. I guess the government could always print money. But then the money has no value and the country is still up the creek.

One of the biggest problems in Greece is tax evasion. There were entire islands where tourism flourished and where tax evasion ruled. If one of the "tenants" of socialism would be " Comit as much tax evasion as possible" then I would agree with the morons who ramble on and on how " socialism failed".

ALIEN
Nov 18th, 2012, 11:43 PM
I don't know if the EU is made up of police states or not. However, I do believe that the EU is a "forced" construct that is doomed to break apart. I might be wrong though.

That's what you would like to happen , don't you? Come on, admit it!:lol:

HippityHop
Nov 18th, 2012, 11:49 PM
That's what you would like to happen , don't you? Come on, admit it!:lol:

Why would it matter to me? I don't give a fat rat's ass since I don't live there. :lol:

But the EU is as artificial as many of the countries that were created up by the Allies after the World Wars.

jameshazza
Nov 18th, 2012, 11:52 PM
The EU will separate. Or at least a lot of countries will leave it. I'm not saying it will completely collapse though. Most British want to leave it so if there's a referendum we likely will.

ALIEN
Nov 19th, 2012, 12:07 AM
Why would it matter to me? I don't give a fat rat's ass since I don't live there. :lol:

Well I heard a lot of Americans that have something against an European superstate.

But the EU is as artificial as many of the countries that were created up by the Allies after the World Wars.

One has nothing to do with the other.

Gawain
Nov 19th, 2012, 11:26 AM
Well I heard a lot of Americans that have something against an European superstate.


I guess it's normal for a superpower to fear other possible superpowers.

The European Union is the largest economy in the world, after all.

pierce85
Nov 19th, 2012, 01:47 PM
I believe that the European expatriates (aka the Americans) should show a little bit more respect about their mother land (aka Europe)

azdaja
Nov 19th, 2012, 06:08 PM
The part of the post that said there will always be a "roof over my head, food and education". From what I'm seeing on the news, Greece in particular, is having trouble providing these things to its citizens. Now if my information is incorrect, please enlighten me.

Governments get their money from people who pay taxes. If not enough people are paying taxes to support all the "free" stuff, that "free" stuff goes away. I guess the government could always print money. But then the money has no value and the country is still up the creek.
people in europe don't get much for free. what we do have is a safety net, meaning that if someone fails to earn enough, loses a job, has an accident which disables them for life and such they will still get support from the state and that their children will be able to get enough education to have an equal chance to succeed as most others (the rich will always be in a better position, though). that is definitely not under threat anywhere in europe and i don't see how it could be. people in greece and other countries are up in arms for losing far less than that.

HippityHop
Nov 20th, 2012, 02:54 PM
people in europe don't get much for free. what we do have is a safety net, meaning that if someone fails to earn enough, loses a job, has an accident which disables them for life and such they will still get support from the state and that their children will be able to get enough education to have an equal chance to succeed as most others (the rich will always be in a better position, though). that is definitely not under threat anywhere in europe and i don't see how it could be. people in greece and other countries are up in arms for losing far less than that.

Which is why I put "free" in quotation marks. Nothing that man creates is "free". As for being up in arms that reinforces my point. Rioting and protesting doesn't create money where there is none. And it takes money to provide a safety net. They need to figure out how to get their economies going so that they generate the necessary funds to provide the things that people want.

Otherwise they'll have to print money and that leads to a worthless currency that nobody trusts or wants thereby making the problems even worse.

azdaja
Nov 20th, 2012, 03:23 PM
Which is why I put "free" in quotation marks. Nothing that man creates is "free". As for being up in arms that reinforces my point. Rioting and protesting doesn't create money where there is none. And it takes money to provide a safety net. They need to figure out how to get their economies going so that they generate the necessary funds to provide the things that people want.

Otherwise they'll have to print money and that leads to a worthless currency that nobody trusts or wants thereby making the problems even worse.
oh, but there is enough money. just the other day i read about the widening gap between top and bottom earners here in austria. given that those in need are a small fraction of the population taking a little money from top earners shouldn't be a problem. it's not really that different in greece or spain. it's just that people refuse to accept that those who don't earn much money should carry the burden of the crisis most.

HippityHop
Nov 20th, 2012, 07:30 PM
The EU will separate. Or at least a lot of countries will leave it. I'm not saying it will completely collapse though. Most British want to leave it so if there's a referendum we likely will.


As Europe plots closer ties, Britain mulls split

By DON MELVIN and DAVID STRINGER, AP


BRUSSELS — Goodbye Britain?
For the European Union, a once-unthinkable question is looking more like a real possibility with each new grinding week of economic crisis. The reason is that bad times are forcing the 17 EU nations that use the euro currency to move ever closer toward some kind of United States of Europe — one that could make decisions about how much member countries spend and how much tax they collect.
If ever Britain had a nightmare, that's it.

The British public shows no interest in moving closer to the rest of Europe, and most can't even seem to stomach the status quo. The real question these days appears to be whether to drift away or break away abruptly.

After a 2015 election, Britain — among 10 of the 27 EU nations that don't use the euro — is likely to hold a referendum on whether to leave the EU. Even if it doesn't hold a vote, the country is already unpicking its ties with Europe, a movement that has unsettled Germany, which is eager to retain the U.K. as an important economic driver of the bloc.

"I will ask the inhabitants of the wonderful island to reflect that they will not be happy if they are alone in this world," German Chancellor Angela Merkel said in a speech before visiting British Prime Minister David Cameron last week in London. :lol:

Her outreach, however, has little impact across the Channel. British Foreign Secretary William Hague, who once toured the U.K. on a "Save The Pound" campaign that opposed the euro, believes the British public has never been more skeptical of European unity.
"Public disillusionment with the EU in Britain is the deepest it has ever been," he said last month. "People feel that in too many ways the EU is something that is done to them, not something over which they have a say."

Such distrust is tangled with worries over the fallout from the European debt crisis and anger at the European Court of Human Rights — castigated by British politicians for ordering Britain to give prisoners a vote in national elections, and preventing the U.K. from deporting terrorism suspects to countries with patchy human rights records. (HH: WTF? :confused: )

Even more alarming for many in Britain, Merkel called last week for turning the European Commission, which currently drafts legislation and regulates competition, into "something like a European government." The phrase alone rattles the teeth of many British politicians, who have warned for decades of the specter of a European superstate.

"Withdrawing from the EU can no longer be dismissed as unthinkable. It is no longer a marginal view confined to mavericks, but a legitimate point that is starting to go mainstream," Douglas Carswell, a legislator with Cameron's Conservative Party, told Parliament as it debated the idea of leaving the EU. :bolt:

Last month, Cameron faced a huge rebellion within his own party as 81 of the 303 Conservative lawmakers defied his orders and voted to hold an urgent referendum on EU membership in 2015.

Read the rest here:

http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20121120/EU.Europe.Goodbye.Britain_/

I didn't realize that the EU was all up in everybody's business like that. :eek:

I guess you have to give up something to get something.

PhilePhile
Nov 20th, 2012, 10:53 PM
As Europe plots closer ties, Britain mulls split

By DON MELVIN and DAVID STRINGER, AP


BRUSSELS — Goodbye Britain?
For the European Union....

"Withdrawing from the EU can no longer be dismissed as unthinkable. It is no longer a marginal view confined to mavericks, but a legitimate point that is starting to go mainstream," Douglas Carswell, a legislator with Cameron's Conservative Party, told Parliament as it debated the idea of leaving the EU. :bolt:

Last month, Cameron faced a huge rebellion within his own party as 81 of the 303 Conservative lawmakers defied his orders and voted to hold an urgent referendum on EU membership in 2015.

Read the rest here:

http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20121120/EU.Europe.Goodbye.Britain_/

I didn't realize that the EU was all up in everybody's business like that. :eek:

I guess you have to give up something to get something.

There will be an EU with or without the U.K.. How big or small of an EU depends on how persuasive the British (and some others ;)) are.

The only major country in the world that supports a successful EU is China.

jameshazza
Nov 22nd, 2012, 09:09 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the politicians want to leave it to have an easier time doing all those dirty deeds but let's not pretend they aren't happening anyway. The general public's want to leave is based purely on economic factors.