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forehand27
Nov 15th, 2012, 07:08 PM
The Seles of 91-92 vs the Serena of 2002-2003 who wins. I would favor Serena on all but clay. Not sure who is the better player in that instance, probably Serena as most regard her playing level of 02-03 the highest ever by a women even if statistically both Serena of 02-03 and Seles of 91-92 are inferior to Navratilova of 83-84, Graf of 88-89, and some corpses from the distant past. However it is close in that sense. However as far as a head to head matchup Serena and any huge power player who also moves better than Seles is a nightmare matchup for her.

sweetadri06
Nov 15th, 2012, 07:19 PM
I pick Serena everywhere, she along with her sister took the seles game to the next level.

Start da Game
Nov 15th, 2012, 07:26 PM
grass: serena wipes out seles 1 and 2

clay: seles blasts serena 2 and 3

hardcourts: close contests with serena edging out 60% of the contests and seles comfortably winning the remaining

do not underestimate peak seles.....

forehand27
Nov 15th, 2012, 07:27 PM
I pick Serena everywhere, she along with her sister took the seles game to the next level.

Come to think of it the Serena of 2012 Charleston and 2012 Madrid would probably even beat peak Seles on clay. Then again many feel those (especialy Madrid) were not real clay courts, including the men.

LightWarrior
Nov 15th, 2012, 07:29 PM
I wonder who would win at 5/5 in the 3rd set as both are probably the 2 GOATS mentally.

Matt01
Nov 15th, 2012, 08:35 PM
On clay Seles.

bandabou
Nov 15th, 2012, 08:38 PM
The faster the surface, the lower Monica's chances get of beating Serena..would have been an amazing match for sure.

Olórin
Nov 15th, 2012, 09:45 PM
Hard to bet against Seles on the red clay of Roland Garros where she was on track to becoming one of the clay GOATs before the stabbing derailed her career trajectory. Really hard to overlook her there. But Serena everywhere else, not often dropping sets.

Miss Atomic Bomb
Nov 15th, 2012, 09:51 PM
Peak Seles on clay is unrivalled while Peak Serena on hard is unrivalled. Serena would win comfortable on grass as well.

It would be a match of epic proportions on slow hc though with Serena coming on top.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using VerticalSports.Com App

forehand27
Nov 15th, 2012, 09:55 PM
On clay Seles.

OK I have to ask you something here out of curiosity. I notice you are the same poster who in the Peak Pierce thread was arguing profusely that Peak Pierce was better than peak Serena on all but grass, and maybe even on grass, lol! Yet in a thread comparing Serena to peak Seles you are giving Serena all but clay. So do you:

1. Believe peak Pierce is superior to peak Seles in which case ROTFL!!!
2. Just believe Pierce is a tougher "matchup" for Serena than Seles which I cant see possibly how, but you are entitled your opinion I guess

Miss Atomic Bomb
Nov 15th, 2012, 09:59 PM
^ don't bother making sense of his fail posts. He always posts this rhetorical useless crap

Sent from my GT-N7100 using VerticalSports.Com App

Alejandrawrrr
Nov 15th, 2012, 11:36 PM
Serena definitely wins on all types of hard, with Seles winning sets here or there. On grass I don't want to imagine what would happen to Monica. On clay it's an actual contest, considering we're talking about 02-03 Peakrena, not 04-current RGQuarterena. More importantly though, it's the matchup. Serena eats slow power players for breakfast, lunch, dinner and a midnight snack. Granted the ones we have on tour now aren't as good as Monica, but when they're getting beat 1&2, 0&1 by a non-peak Serena in the first place... :lol:

Average pre-stabbing Seles vs Average Serena even with the matchup disadvantage would lead on clay, especially red. That being said I don't think even peak Seles would be able to outhit, outmaneuver or outlast the Serena of 02', who hit harder than her, was light years quicker than her, and even mentally tougher, if anyone could have imagined that during Seles' time.

sweetadri06
Nov 15th, 2012, 11:46 PM
Serena definitely wins on all types of hard, with Seles winning sets here or there. On grass I don't want to imagine what would happen to Monica. On clay it's an actual contest, considering we're talking about 02-03 Peakrena, not 04-current RGQuarterena. More importantly though, it's the matchup. Serena eats slow power players for breakfast, lunch, dinner and a midnight snack. Granted the ones we have on tour now aren't as good as Monica, but when they're getting beat 1&2, 0&1 by a non-peak Serena in the first place... :lol:

Average pre-stabbing Seles vs Average Serena even with the matchup disadvantage would lead on clay, especially red. That being said I don't think even peak Seles would be able to outhit, outmaneuver or outlast the Serena of 02', who hit harder than her, was light years quicker than her, and even mentally tougher, if anyone could have imagined that during Seles' time.

I agree. Serena circa 2002-2003 moves better than Seles ever did, so clay would maybe be a contest but Serena comes out on top. (imo)

Rolling-Thunder
Nov 16th, 2012, 12:18 AM
I picked Serena for all surfaces except clay.

Serena>Seles on Aussieturf
Seles>Serena on clay
Serena>>>Seles on grass
Serena>Seles on hardcourts

The biggest blowout would be on grass. Serena would love Seles pace and would take advantage of her movement.

bandabou
Nov 16th, 2012, 06:15 AM
OK I have to ask you something here out of curiosity. I notice you are the same poster who in the Peak Pierce thread was arguing profusely that Peak Pierce was better than peak Serena on all but grass, and maybe even on grass, lol! Yet in a thread comparing Serena to peak Seles you are giving Serena all but clay. So do you:

1. Believe peak Pierce is superior to peak Seles in which case ROTFL!!!
2. Just believe Pierce is a tougher "matchup" for Serena than Seles which I cant see possibly how, but you are entitled your opinion I guess

Very interesting questions indeed. Matty can get deluded at times, soo...:lol:

hingis-seles
Nov 16th, 2012, 12:43 PM
The closest we ever got to seeing peak Seles was in 1993, not 1991/1992. She was constantly improving leading up to the stabbing. In the Australian Open final, she was taller than Graf and served more aces than her not to mention showed incredible defence. That was when Graf really began doubting herself against Seles than in 1991/1992.

Sammo
Nov 16th, 2012, 12:50 PM
Peak Seles would beat the crap out of Peak Serena on clay, so I voted peak Serena on all surfaces except clay

Otlichno
Nov 16th, 2012, 12:54 PM
I don't think Peak Monica would have even beaten Peak Serena on clay. :shrug:

Peak Monica's game of hitting angles and forcing opponents to move side to side, fits directly into what Peak Serena would want. :shrug: No one could beat Serena at that game, she was far too physically superior. :shrug:

Start da Game
Nov 16th, 2012, 01:02 PM
poll results are entirely wrong......seles was not a pushover on hardcourts by any means......she was the first real power hitter on tour on the women's side and a great player......if she had the modern equipment that serena enjoys, imagine what she could have done......her serve was lethal before 1993 and she is 2 inches taller than serena!!

Matt01
Nov 16th, 2012, 02:36 PM
OK I have to ask you something here out of curiosity. I notice you are the same poster who in the Peak Pierce thread was arguing profusely that Peak Pierce was better than peak Serena on all but grass, and maybe even on grass, lol! Yet in a thread comparing Serena to peak Seles you are giving Serena all but clay. So do you:

1. Believe peak Pierce is superior to peak Seles in which case ROTFL!!!
2. Just believe Pierce is a tougher "matchup" for Serena than Seles which I cant see possibly how, but you are entitled your opinion I guess


Of course I think that Peak Pierce is superior to Peak Seles, shouldn't be that hard to figure out.

And please don't pretend to not know me because we all know which formerly banned poster you are. But don't worry I won't report you :kiss:

forehand27
Nov 16th, 2012, 06:52 PM
Of course I think that Peak Pierce is superior to Peak Seles

Well then you couldnt be more wrong. Even a depressed and grossly overweight Seles due to her fathers impending death, and in the worst year of tennis of her career, could beat and overpower a very in form Pierce:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DdmSxMt8cs

Case closed.

forehand27
Nov 16th, 2012, 06:56 PM
The closest we ever got to seeing peak Seles was in 1993, not 1991/1992. She was constantly improving leading up to the stabbing. In the Australian Open final, she was taller than Graf and served more aces than her not to mention showed incredible defence. That was when Graf really began doubting herself against Seles than in 1991/1992.

Valid and interesting point but keep in mind this is a thread about peak SERENA vs peak Seles, not peak Graf vs peak Seles. I think most would concede regardless which is the hard court GOAT factoring in overall career (obviously one of Graf or Serena) that peak Serena >>>>> peak Graf on hard courts in sheer playing level, especialy on Australian Open hard courts which is the match you reference and the only kind of hard court Seles ever managed to beat Graf on anyway, and that Serena is a much tougher matchup for Seles than Graf was. Seles could only beat Graf on a hard court by attacking her backhand and 2nd serve, but against Serena there would be nothing to attack. The only way to beat Serena on a hard court is to attack her consistency but you need great retrieving skills to have a chance at doing that, which Seles does not.

jj74
Nov 16th, 2012, 07:10 PM
On clay Seles is clearly superior, on the rest Serena clearly on clay, and Serena, a lot more tight, on hard

hingis-seles
Nov 16th, 2012, 07:23 PM
Valid and interesting point but keep in mind this is a thread about peak SERENA vs peak Seles, not peak Graf vs peak Seles. I think most would concede regardless which is the hard court GOAT factoring in overall career (obviously one of Graf or Serena) that peak Serena >>>>> peak Graf on hard courts in sheer playing level, especialy on Australian Open hard courts which is the match you reference and the only kind of hard court Seles ever managed to beat Graf on anyway, and that Serena is a much tougher matchup for Seles than Graf was. Seles could only beat Graf on a hard court by attacking her backhand and 2nd serve, but against Serena there would be nothing to attack. The only way to beat Serena on a hard court is to attack her consistency but you need great retrieving skills to have a chance at doing that, which Seles does not.

The reason I cited the Graf match was because along with Seles, those were the only two players at that level at the time, along with it highlighting Seles' improving game - she had closed the gap in areas where Graf had the edge while maintaining the strengths she had. All of this plays into Peak Seles, which is a part of the subject of this thread. The closest look we ever got at what might have been.

I've said it in other threads already but the level of tennis Serena displayed in 2002 was the best I have ever seen from a woman, irrespective of the weak competition arguments others keep dredging up. But as far as mental toughness goes, I'd have to give the nod to Seles.

I don't think it'd be so cut and dry as most responses in this thread suggest. Neither one would be winning easily or destroying the other on clay/grass. Both were fiercely proud champions who despised losing which was highlighted during their peaks.

forehand27
Nov 16th, 2012, 07:27 PM
Well you are entitled your opinion but even peak Seles was crushed by peak Graf on grass, and IMO peak Serena > peak Graf on grass (again just talking peak level play, not historical ranking) so I dont think grass would be close. Clay would be closer, but peak Serena was dominated by non prime Henin on clay, and peak Seles > peak Henin on clay IMO so even that I wouldn see being that close either. The only really good matches would be on hard courts. JMO

Matt01
Nov 16th, 2012, 11:18 PM
Well then you couldnt be more wrong. Even a depressed and grossly overweight Seles due to her fathers impending death, and in the worst year of tennis of her career, could beat and overpower a very in form Pierce:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DdmSxMt8cs

Case closed.


Pierce in 1997 wasn't even close to her peak. :facepalm:

azinna
Nov 17th, 2012, 12:26 AM
Peak Seles would have a strong chance on RG clay, especially if the '91-'93 version of herself could borrow her '95 serve. If she couldn't, she'd need Serena RG '03 QF to not show up.

....

Pops Maellard
Nov 17th, 2012, 02:28 AM
Serena on all surfaces IMO. Seles could perhaps equal Serena off the ground at times but between the two Seles' serve would be challenged a lot more ;).

jaredlikesbieber
Nov 17th, 2012, 03:03 AM
serena on grass and US hardcourts, seles on slower HC and clay courts.

rjd1111
Nov 17th, 2012, 03:08 AM
I like Monica But:


Seles started Power Tennis


Serena perfected it.

forehand27
Nov 17th, 2012, 04:41 AM
I think this is their best match vs each other. Neither in their prime but both still at a high level and not a huge amount from their best (well a considerable amount but the closest they would ever be together probably). Very hard hitting, both in decent shape for their standards (considering both can be walruses at various points of their careers, lol), great angles, great movement and defense when needed from Serena, great serving from Serena and sometimes from Seles, great returning, very good mental focus and fight from Seles, and some nice volleys and all court play from Serena.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-i8SlKbYcI

forehand27
Nov 17th, 2012, 05:03 AM
Pierce in 1997 wasn't even close to her peak. :facepalm:

To borrow your reference from the peak Pierce thread who was closer to her peak in 1997, Pierce or Seles? Obvious answer is Pierce by a landslide, that was Seles's worst year of professional tennis until her final year in 2003 where she was 30, and both too old and injured for the game by then.

Secondly Pierce's peak is not dependent on an overall year or time frame, you obviously know that otherwise you wouldnt even dare try to argue peak Pierce is superior to all. It is dependent on her form in completely random and rare matches or tournaments, which can take place any year she is even in the top 10. I wouldnt say the 97 U.S Open and Pierce's match vs Seles was absolute peak Pierce, but it was a very good Pierce who wasnt a huge margin below her peak. If you will notice from watching the match Pierce was playing very well, and you will note Mary Carillo is raving about how well she is playing, yet she still got well beaten and thumped in the last 2 sets by a very fat and slumping Seles in one of her worst years ever. So any question who would win between them at their peak is not even worth discussing.

Lastly it could easily be argued 1997 is one of Pierce's best years. She made both a slam final and a WTA Championship (the biggest non slam event) final. In her career she has only made 8 of those, and 2 of them were this year alone, and this is one of only 2 years she made 2 or more of such major finals in the same year. She also won a tier 1 event, something she only did 4 years of her whole career (5 total tier 1 titles in her career), reached 5 finals of tier 2 caliber or higher, one of the only times she managed that. She reached atleast the round of 16 of every major event, one of only two years she managed that. The only years she could be argued to have had a better year than 1997 are:

1994- Yet that said she didnt even win a tournament that year.
1995- Yet that said she did poorly in almost all the major events after the Australian Open.
2000- Although did nothing and eventually got injured after Roland Garros.
2005

Oddly enough 2005 on paper is her best year ever despite being age 30. 3 major finals (including the WTA Championships), only year ever with two tier 1 titles. Yet despite this she got destroyed in both her slam finals and never got higher than #5 in a weak disoriented year for womens tennis. So if are narrowing peak Pierce down to years as you seem to wish this was probably the all time peak Pierce, year end #5, loser of 3 major finals, and a 2 times slam final smackdowned in a bad year for the WTA. So yep Peak Pierce = peak GOAT. :lol:

As this topic isnt about peak Pierce I will not mention her again in this thread but thanks for that, this was alot of fun.

tonybotz
Nov 17th, 2012, 08:45 AM
95 Seles would win majority.

Joelina
Nov 17th, 2012, 04:14 PM
only peak Bammer can beat peak Serena, deal with it.

Chrissie-fan
Nov 17th, 2012, 04:44 PM
Grass - Serena
Clay - Seles
Hardcourt - Let's get ready to rumble.

Tag
Nov 18th, 2012, 02:16 AM
but peak seles couldn't even beat injured graf :shrug:

serena easily

maybe seles might win sometimes on clay, but this peak, so serena

forehand27
Nov 19th, 2012, 05:54 PM
Here are how some of their stats compare peak to peak:

Serena in 2002-2003: Won 5 of 6 slams played (83%), won 2 of 3 WTA Championships/Miami/Olympics (67%), 56-5 in 2002 (91%), 8 of 13 tournaments played won in 2002 (61%), 2003 singles record 38-3 (92%), won 4 of 7 tournaments played (57%)

Seles in 2002-2003: Won 6 of 8 slams (75%), won 3 of 4 WTA Championships/Miami/Olympics (75%), 74-6 in 1991 (92%), 10 of 16 tournaments played won (62%), won 10 of 15 tournaments played (67%)

So very close stats all around. The biggest difference is Seles's winning 67% of tournaments played in 1992 vs 57% for Serena in 2003, but the clay season had just finished so Serena's percentage was likely shooting way up had she been able to complete the year. That and Serena winning 83% of the slams she played in 2002-2003 vs Seles winning 6 of 8 slams (missing Wimbledon is basically a write off as she was never winning it anyway) for 75%.

Overall I would still give the edge to Serena since she had tougher competition, faced a stronger and deeper field. Also since she could win on all surfaces, unlike Seles. She also owned her biggest rivals moreso than Seles, the only top player or any player for that matter to beat Serena more than once was Henin on clay 3 times, and Henin could not come close to Serena on any other surface then. Seles meanwhile lost 3 times to Graf (3 out of 4 matches), 4 times to Navratilova, 2 times to Capriati, 2 times to Sabatini, and once to Sanchez Vicario. Lastly I am completely sure had Serena been able to play the 2002 Australian, 2003 U.S Open, and 2004 Australian Open she wins all 3 and wins 8 of 9 slams, which is greater than Seles's peak streak of 7 of 9.

homogenius
Nov 19th, 2012, 06:20 PM
it's not just a question of surfaces or match-up.Peak Seles brought so much intensity in her matches (especially the big ones)from first point to the last one.I think Serena would have a hard time dealing with that even on hc so I'd say :
clay : seles
grass : serena
hc : 50/50

Matt01
Nov 19th, 2012, 07:31 PM
Lastly I am completely sure had Serena been able to play the 2002 Australian, 2003 U.S Open, and 2004 Australian Open she wins all 3 and wins 8 of 9 slams, which is greater than Seles's peak streak of 7 of 9.


:tape: :help:

forehand27
Nov 19th, 2012, 08:00 PM
It seems you take issue with what I said but who was ever going to beat her at any of those events. The 2002 Australian Open doesnt even warrant a discussion, Serena was completely dominant that year, of her closest rivals Venus was injured and not a factor there and Davenport didnt even play. Furthermore nobody was even playing well at the event, the final between Capriati and Hingis was absolutely terrible.

The 2003 U.S Open and 2004 Australian Opens were won by Justine Henin. Justine Henin did not post her first win over Serena on hard courts until 2007. No further explanation needed.

markdelaney
Nov 19th, 2012, 08:07 PM
Why do people keep making polls with Peak Serena against another player ? Peak Serena has taken the game to a level never seen before. Nobody can live with her when she plays her best, not even Venus.