PDA

View Full Version : Peak Henin vs peak Venus


forehand27
Nov 15th, 2012, 07:21 PM
Might as well add my own since everyone else has made one, and since their careers are virtually a wash anyway. I would say Henin easily on clay (duh), Venus easily on grass (duh, although IMO a bit closer than clay), and almost a toss up on hard courts or indoors.

Roookie
Nov 15th, 2012, 07:29 PM
Jesustine 7-6 6-4

jj74
Nov 15th, 2012, 07:30 PM
It's curious becuase that's a match that never happened on wta. Most of their matches were when Venus was a dominant force and Henin was simply a rising star. And the last one was Henin in one of her best moments but Venus far from her peak.

That would be a interesting match for sure, not only for the quality of the players but for the contrast of styles too

Uranium
Nov 15th, 2012, 07:32 PM
Peak Venus except clay. Peak Henin on hardcourts I believe to be 2007 and Venus took her to a tight 2 setter. Thus making me believe that Peaknus would beat her in however many sets needed on hard.

forehand27
Nov 15th, 2012, 07:34 PM
It's curious becuase that's a match that never happened on wta. Most of their matches were when Venus was a dominant force and Henin was simply a rising star. And the last one was Henin in one of her best moments but Venus far from her peak.

That would be a interesting match for sure, not only for the quality of the players but for the contrast of styles too

This WTA era will sadly be most remembered for epic number of injuries, burnouts, inconsistencies, and retirements, and many what could have been rivalries. Serena vs Henin never really met peak to peak either, nor Hingis vs Serena, nor Sharapova vs Venus, and a number of others.

Sammo
Nov 15th, 2012, 07:35 PM
Henin wins on all but grass

danieln1
Nov 15th, 2012, 07:51 PM
Grass: 6-0 6-2 Venus
Hard: 7-5 5-7 6-4 Venus
Carpet: 6-1 6-4 Venus
Clay: 6-4 3-6 6-4 Henin

forehand27
Nov 15th, 2012, 07:57 PM
Grass: 6-0 6-2 Venus
Hard: 7-5 5-7 6-4 Venus
Carpet: 6-1 6-4 Venus
Clay: 6-4 3-6 6-4 Henin

ROTFL at your grass, clay, and carpet scores. Baby Henin played peak Venus at Wimbledon in 2001 and 2002 and won a set in one of them, and got 5 games in the other. As for clay peak Venus was drubbed by no name Henin 6-4, 6-1 the first time they played on any surface. Indoors Venus winning for the loss of a mere 5 games you think. Henin actualy won back to back WTA Championships, while Venus won her only one ever after Henin had retired. Venus in no way has a tremendous record on indoor or carpet courts. The only accurate one you listed is probably hard courts, it would be something like that I agree.

Queen_Vee_92
Nov 15th, 2012, 07:57 PM
Venus on fast hard courts and and certainly grass.

Henin on slow hard courts and certainly clay.

No debate really neeeded for clay and grass, as they are the 2 exceptional players on their surface this generation.

fast hard courts suit Venus' game perfectly and she was practically unstoppable there in her peak years bar Serena in PeakRena form. In 07, Venus played an exceptional match against Justine whilst appearing drained, and made it tight in what i consider to be the best overall match Justine played on a hardcourt against a top player, so i think on a US open like court 00/01 Venus beats 07 Henin with pure aggression.

slow hard courts we never really got this between them. The Aus Open 03 match was peak Venus on rebound ace, again probably her best match on the surface in her career, and Justine was a little short of the grand slam winning mental giant phase. In all likelihood Justine would've bested her more peak for peak on this kind of surface where she could frustrate Venus more and no doubt Venus' technique would've come to let her down as it has so often on a slow ass HC.

the most even question of who is better really. Both are tied for slams, both have opposite games that favour different scenarios and courts. Would absolutely have loved to see peak these two face on a hard court would be such a battle. The only thing that leans me more to Vee as a better peak player than Henin is the eras. Justine's dominance was in a weaker time than Venus' where there were 3 or 4 absolutely class players playing brilliant tennis.

forehand27
Nov 15th, 2012, 08:00 PM
Venus on fast hard courts and and certainly grass.

Henin on slow hard courts and certainly clay.

No debate really neeeded for clay and grass, as they are the 2 exceptional players on their surface this generation.

fast hard courts suit Venus' game perfectly and she was practically unstoppable there in her peak years bar Serena in PeakRena form. In 07, Venus played an exceptional match against Justine whilst appearing drained, and made it tight in what i consider to be the best overall match Justine played on a hardcourt against a top player, so i think on a US open like court 00/01 Venus beats 07 Henin with pure aggression.

slow hard courts we never really got this between them. The Aus Open 03 match was peak Venus on rebound ace, again probably her best match on the surface in her career, and Justine was a little short of the grand slam winning mental giant phase. In all likelihood Justine would've bested her more peak for peak on this kind of surface where she could frustrate Venus more and no doubt Venus' technique would've come to let her down as it has so often on a slow ass HC.

the most even question of who is better really. Both are tied for slams, both have opposite games that favour different scenarios and courts. Would absolutely have loved to see peak these two face on a hard court would be such a battle. The only thing that leans me more to Vee as a better peak player than Henin is the eras. Justine's dominance was in a weaker time than Venus' where there were 3 or 4 absolutely class players playing brilliant tennis.

Excellent assessment, I agree with all you said. Although would add even though I feel peak Henin would most times beat peak Venus at the Australian Open, the Venus of the 2003 Australian Open was exceptional and would win even over peak Henin, but she never quite reproduced that level on the surface again. The only one who could beat her there that year was Serena, and mostly only due to the mental issue, otherwise she was playing better than Serena there that year .

Miss Amor
Nov 15th, 2012, 08:01 PM
Venus on fast surfaces

Henin on clay.

On slow HC, their 2003 AO match is as close to a decent indicator as we can get. Venus wasnt in her 2001 form while Henin was still quite young (although that was the year she went on to win 2 slams and have one of the best seasons of her career). Obviously Peak Venus won't win in a similar fashion against Peak Henin, but she will win nonetheless on this surface.

jj74
Nov 15th, 2012, 08:03 PM
Grass: 6-0 6-2 Venus
Hard: 7-5 5-7 6-4 Venus
Carpet: 6-1 6-4 Venus
Clay: 6-4 3-6 6-4 Henin

I don't think so.

A young Henin played Venus in a Wimbledon final and it was a three set match (yes I know Venus trashed her in the third).

And in clay Henin was the best player of this era by far

sweetadri06
Nov 15th, 2012, 08:05 PM
Venus wins everywhere except clay. Apparently Justine was more intimidated by Venus than Serena.

Queen_Vee_92
Nov 15th, 2012, 08:08 PM
Excellent assessment, I agree with all you said. Although would add even though I feel peak Henin would most times beat peak Venus at the Australian Open, the Venus of the 2003 Australian Open was exceptional and would win even over peak Henin, but she never quite reproduced that level on the surface again. The only one who could beat her there that year was Serena, and mostly only due to the mental issue, otherwise she was playing better than Serena there that year .

No if Venus had produced that kind of form in Australia any year since then, she'd probably be on about 4 singles titles there :lol:

Venus on fast surfaces

Henin on clay.

On slow HC, their 2003 AO match is as close to a decent indicator as we can get. Venus wasnt in her 2001 form while Henin was still quite young (although that was the year she went on to win 2 slams and have one of the best seasons of her career). Obviously Peak Venus won't win in a similar fashion against Peak Henin, but she will win nonetheless on this surface.

I actually think Oz Open 03 Venus is the best tournament she'd ever played on a hardcourt bar the matchup/mental issue in the final against lil sis.

To play as well as that on a surface in which before and after she's come nowhere close, makes me think that was actually the last time we saw absolute peak Venus show up. I think she played as well as she ever had in 2001 in that particular tournament if not better. The highglights of the henin match are just:drool: how easy she was making literally everything look. She barely ever looked like missing in that match. Hoping she brings that back for the 10 year anniversary :oh:

forehand27
Nov 15th, 2012, 08:13 PM
I remember I was cheering for Venus so much to win that Australian Open final vs Serena. I was devastated when she lost. I like Serena too but Venus needed that win so much more IMO. Then again I was happy for Serena completing that historic Serena Slam, which was fitting reward for her insanely high level of play in 2002-2003, especialy as she fought her guts out that tournament to survive numerous times, vs Loit, vs Kim, then vs Venus.

jj74
Nov 15th, 2012, 08:16 PM
Venus wins everywhere except clay. Apparently Justine was more intimidated by Venus than Serena.

That's difficult to know, because most of their matches were in the era that Venus was the one to beat.
With Serena was a more classic rivaldry with a lot of matches in different periods and surfaces (and it's a pity there weren't more GS finals between them).
But watching the matches on 2007 US Open maybe Venus game was more challenging to Justine, but of course, she played Serena a lot more, so maybe she is simply more used to her game than his sister's game

forehand27
Nov 15th, 2012, 08:19 PM
Henin though claimed to be scared of Venus and why she lost or tanked to Bartoli at Wimbledon 2007. Who knows if that is really true or not, or she just made up some BS story to excuse her humiliating loss to some fat ice cream girl who at her career peak and totally dominating the game that year she should have beaten 6-0, 6-0 and allowed 2 winners like she did at the WTA Championships later that year, but that is what she said.

n1_and_uh_noone
Nov 15th, 2012, 08:27 PM
Justine had no confidence against Venus on grass :rolleyes:, so easy win for Venus. 2007 USO was her peak Slam performance overall but she has played any number of individual matches at a far higher level than she showed there, so it was not necessarily Jesustine there. I feel Venus needs a fast court way more than Justine needs a slow one, so I will say easy win for Venus on grass with 1 tight set, easy win for Justine on clay, tight 3-set win for Venus on fast hard, routine but entertaining win like 6-4, 6-4 for Justine on slow hard (the prevalent surface on tour).

Critique
Nov 15th, 2012, 08:45 PM
Venus has been one of the main victims of the continual slowing of courts in tennis. Even though her 2003 Australian Open form would probably beat Peak Henin I give Henin the advantage on slow hard. She would have time to retrieve Venus' flat strokes and pressure the Venus FH until it breaks down.

Venus comfortably on grass and Henin comfortably on clay, a no-brainer.

Peak Venus was scary good on fast hard courts. The match against Hingis in Munich shows how overpowering Venus's flat strokes are on a fast surface. Justine was very good on fast hard too, but she would simply be overpowered by peak Venus on this surface.

blackandblue
Nov 15th, 2012, 08:50 PM
Venus on fast hard courts and and certainly grass.

Henin on slow hard courts and certainly clay.

No debate really neeeded for clay and grass, as they are the 2 exceptional players on their surface this generation.

fast hard courts suit Venus' game perfectly and she was practically unstoppable there in her peak years bar Serena in PeakRena form. In 07, Venus played an exceptional match against Justine whilst appearing drained, and made it tight in what i consider to be the best overall match Justine played on a hardcourt against a top player, so i think on a US open like court 00/01 Venus beats 07 Henin with pure aggression.

slow hard courts we never really got this between them. The Aus Open 03 match was peak Venus on rebound ace, again probably her best match on the surface in her career, and Justine was a little short of the grand slam winning mental giant phase. In all likelihood Justine would've bested her more peak for peak on this kind of surface where she could frustrate Venus more and no doubt Venus' technique would've come to let her down as it has so often on a slow ass HC.

the most even question of who is better really. Both are tied for slams, both have opposite games that favour different scenarios and courts. Would absolutely have loved to see peak these two face on a hard court would be such a battle. The only thing that leans me more to Vee as a better peak player than Henin is the eras. Justine's dominance was in a weaker time than Venus' where there were 3 or 4 absolutely class players playing brilliant tennis.

Serena > Venus on grass. Other than that, solid post.

i.will2
Nov 15th, 2012, 10:22 PM
There have been a few good assessments of this matchup. I think this is one that drastically depends on the surface because of the style of play both use. Fast suits Venus and slowing the surface gives Justine a chance. On clay Henin wins maybe not easily but she wins, and on grass Henin would try to keep it close but Venus would win that one. If AO 2003 was peak Venus on a slow HC then I think she has the edge over Henin on everything but clay. Justine is a great player but I will always say when Venus is at her best she's serving big, hitting big groundstokes, and finishing points at the net. If Venus is playing like that even Serena would have trouble beating her so I have to assume the same for Justine.

thrust
Nov 15th, 2012, 10:24 PM
It's curious becuase that's a match that never happened on wta. Most of their matches were when Venus was a dominant force and Henin was simply a rising star. And the last one was Henin in one of her best moments but Venus far from her peak.

That would be a interesting match for sure, not only for the quality of the players but for the contrast of styles too

Venus was NOT far from her peak in the 07 USO semi final match. Venus won Wimbledon that year and was playing very well at the USO. True, Venus since 04 could beat anyone on a given day, then lose to a lesser players the next day. Still there is little doubt that Venus would have the edge on grass, Justine on clay. Slow hard, slight edge to Justine, fast hard slight edge to Venus.

Sammo
Nov 15th, 2012, 10:33 PM
I think that peak Henin would win in all except grass and fast indoors, I'd give her a 60/40 edge over peak Venus on hardcourts

forehand27
Nov 15th, 2012, 10:41 PM
Why do people think indoors would help Venus. Venus doesnt even play let alone win much indoors. Venus's best surface outside of grass is various form and speeds of decturf outdoor hards, medium or fast.

Sammo
Nov 15th, 2012, 10:49 PM
Why do people think indoors would help Venus. Venus doesnt even play let alone win much indoors. Venus's best surface outside of grass is various form and speeds of decturf outdoor hards, medium or fast.

Yeah but she definitely was better than Henin indoors

forehand27
Nov 15th, 2012, 11:02 PM
Werent the 2 WTA Championships back to back Henin won indoors? I would have to check the stats but I am pretty sure Henin played more and won more indoors than Venus did. I dont even know what one would consider peak Venus indoors. At her peak in 2000-2002 she either barely played or did nothing after the U.S Open which is the main indoor season, and her only WTA Championship title was in 2008, years past her prime.

n1_and_uh_noone
Nov 15th, 2012, 11:54 PM
Werent the 2 WTA Championships back to back Henin won indoors? I would have to check the stats but I am pretty sure Henin played more and won more indoors than Venus did. I dont even know what one would consider peak Venus indoors. At her peak in 2000-2002 she either barely played or did nothing after the U.S Open which is the main indoor season, and her only WTA Championship title was in 2008, years past her prime.

From Wikipedia: JH 37-15 career win-loss on carpet (71%)
VW 50-17 career win-loss on carpet (75%)
so not a massive difference. Of course, I am not sure indoors and carpet are equivalent here (I remember Venus lost to Jankovic in 2008 Stuttgart but she is shown as not having played indoors in 2008.

Also, WTA Championships in 2008 were outdoors.

dsanders06
Nov 15th, 2012, 11:59 PM
Justine wins everywhere but grass.

Geisha
Nov 16th, 2012, 01:23 AM
From Wikipedia: JH 37-15 career win-loss on carpet (71%)
VW 50-17 career win-loss on carpet (75%)
so not a massive difference. Of course, I am not sure indoors and carpet are equivalent here (I remember Venus lost to Jankovic in 2008 Stuttgart but she is shown as not having played indoors in 2008.

Also, WTA Championships in 2008 were outdoors.

I didn't know they were outdoors in 2008. Thanks.

RenaSlam.
Nov 16th, 2012, 01:24 AM
Peak Venus was so confident with her serve, groundies, and movement. All but clay.

Geisha
Nov 16th, 2012, 01:44 AM
Justine obviously wins the clay match and Venus obviously wins the grass match. The hard match is difficult to assess. Justine's fast court skills are often underrated, but there are also a whole slew of speeds for different hardcourt surfaces.

Looking at Venus' peak 2000-2002, she compiled a 90-5 (.947) record on hardcourts, winning a whole slew of important titles, including back-to-back US Opens, the Olympics, Miami, and going undefeated in the American summer circuit twice.

From 2006-2008, Justine went 57-3 (.950) on hardcourts. She played a lot less, but also had some amazing wins, including two Year-End Championships, Toronto, and the US Open. Justine's record becomes a little shaky because she played very well on hardcourts in other periods of her career, but not necessarily when she was at her peak, such as the Athens Olympics and her second best year in 2006.

I don't believe two players can play at their absolute best against each other at the same time, as the sport of tennis works in ways that if you are playing your best, the other person is stopped from doing so, as well. But the 2007 US Open SF match between these two isn't the worst indicator; Venus wasn't at her peak in this match, but she was definitely not riddled with the disease (she ran and ran for days and didn't appear winded) and she wasn't injured.

All in all, Venus wins in tight matches on both hard and carpet.

Geisha
Nov 16th, 2012, 01:45 AM
Peak Venus was so confident with her serve, groundies, and movement. All but clay.

Was she really, though? Venus' serve was always inconsistent, even in her peak. She always had aces to match her double faults. Nobody moves better than peak-Venus, and her groundstrokes were lethal at her best, but she even tends to rally more than she should.

Direwolf
Nov 16th, 2012, 02:12 AM
clay: Venus df Justine 2-6 7-6(5) 7-5 - Amelia Island
Grass: Venus df Justine 3-6 6-2 6-0 - London
Hardcourt: Venus df Justine 6-4 5-7 6-4 - New Haven
Plexi: Venus df Justine 7-5 7-6(6)
Carpet: Venus df Justine 6-2 5-7 6-2

moby
Nov 16th, 2012, 02:17 AM
This match happened and Justine won 7-6 6-4 on a hard court. Next.

r48_-il0QWc

Direwolf
Nov 16th, 2012, 02:20 AM
Justine obviously wins the clay match and Venus obviously wins the grass match. The hard match is difficult to assess. Justine's fast court skills are often underrated, but there are also a whole slew of speeds for different hardcourt surfaces.

Looking at Venus' peak 2000-2002, she compiled a 90-5 (.947) record on hardcourts, winning a whole slew of important titles, including back-to-back US Opens, the Olympics, Miami, and going undefeated in the American summer circuit twice.

From 2006-2008, Justine went 57-3 (.950) on hardcourts. She played a lot less, but also had some amazing wins, including two Year-End Championships, Toronto, and the US Open. Justine's record becomes a little shaky because she played very well on hardcourts in other periods of her career, but not necessarily when she was at her peak, such as the Athens Olympics and her second best year in 2006.

I don't believe two players can play at their absolute best against each other at the same time, as the sport of tennis works in ways that if you are playing your best, the other person is stopped from doing so, as well. But the 2007 US Open SF match between these two isn't the worst indicator; Venus wasn't at her peak in this match, but she was definitely not riddled with the disease (she ran and ran for days and didn't appear winded) and she wasn't injured.

All in all, Venus wins in tight matches on both hard and carpet.

Venus df Lindsay 4-6 7-6 9-7

Venus had anemia in that 2007 Semifinals
Justine had an extra day off while Venus only 1 day. After Venus
Disposed Peak Jaja 7-6 in the third in their Qf.

n1_and_uh_noone
Nov 16th, 2012, 02:43 AM
Venus had anemia in that 2007 Semifinals
Justine had an extra day off while Venus only 1 day. After Venus
Disposed Peak Jaja 7-6 in the third in their Qf.

True this. And the fact that Juju had not-quite-peak-itis in every match she did not humiliate her opponents. So... :shrug:

JRena
Nov 16th, 2012, 06:51 AM
AO: Venus 6-4, 3-6 6-3
French: Henin 7-5, 7-5
Wimb: Venus 6-2 1-0 (retirement, abdominal illness)
USO: Venus 7-5, 4-6, 7-6

young_gunner913
Nov 16th, 2012, 07:16 AM
During her peak year on tour, Justine tanked a match to avoid an ass whooping from Venus. That says it all.

Geisha
Nov 16th, 2012, 02:26 PM
Venus df Lindsay 4-6 7-6 9-7

Venus had anemia in that 2007 Semifinals
Justine had an extra day off while Venus only 1 day. After Venus
Disposed Peak Jaja 7-6 in the third in their Qf.

They played at a high level, but none were at their best for the entire portion of the match in 2005. Venus sucked at the beginning of the first two sets and when she got on rolls, Lindsay suddenly stopped winning points...Venus was also a double fault queen, I believe.

StoneRose
Nov 16th, 2012, 02:33 PM
Fifth option seems reasonable. Many Venustards here apparently. Justine in peak form is awesome, certainly not worse than Venus, i would set money on Henin playing AO for instance.

danieln1
Nov 16th, 2012, 03:33 PM
ROTFL at your grass, clay, and carpet scores. Baby Henin played peak Venus at Wimbledon in 2001 and 2002 and won a set in one of them, and got 5 games in the other. As for clay peak Venus was drubbed by no name Henin 6-4, 6-1 the first time they played on any surface. Indoors Venus winning for the loss of a mere 5 games you think. Henin actualy won back to back WTA Championships, while Venus won her only one ever after Henin had retired. Venus in no way has a tremendous record on indoor or carpet courts. The only accurate one you listed is probably hard courts, it would be something like that I agree.

Venus at her peak on grass is unbeatable, even Serena would lose there or make it competitive. In 2007 Henin said she was afraid to play Venus in the final, so she gave this excuse because of her loss to Bartoli. Maybe 6-0 6-2 would be too one sided, but it would definetely be a straight sets win for Venus. Carpet is almost as fast as grass, so Venus would win easily there too

I don't think so.

A young Henin played Venus in a Wimbledon final and it was a three set match (yes I know Venus trashed her in the third).

And in clay Henin was the best player of this era by far

Venus won some important titles on red clay, she would lose, but it would be on three sets. I donīt think peak Henin would take peak Venus to three sets on grass...

Matt01
Nov 16th, 2012, 03:53 PM
Venus won some important titles on red clay, she would lose, but it would be on three sets. I donīt think peak Henin would take peak Venus to three sets on grass...


Non-peak Henin took peak-Venus to 3 sets on grass in 2001 :p

MegaDethly
Nov 19th, 2012, 04:30 PM
Justine wins everywhere but grass.

Clearly she doesn't though, does she?

SunshineSlam
Nov 19th, 2012, 05:04 PM
Peak Cheater would probably find a way to steal the win but Peak Venus is of course the better player.

~Cherry*Blossom~
Nov 19th, 2012, 05:11 PM
LOL at people making a big deal out of the set Henin won at Wimbledon 2001. Are people forgetting the rain delays and Venus rushing in the second set to get the match finished before the rain. Then she came back out in the third set concentrated and demolished Henin just like she did in the first.

Matt01
Nov 19th, 2012, 08:32 PM
LOL at people making a big deal out of the set Henin won at Wimbledon 2001. Are people forgetting the rain delays and Venus rushing in the second set to get the match finished before the rain. Then she came back out in the third set concentrated and demolished Henin just like she did in the first.


Very true. It wasn't Henin who won that 2nd set. It was the rain :hearts: :inlove:

hurricanejeanne
Nov 19th, 2012, 09:07 PM
Venus on grass. Justine on clay.

It's the hardcourts that are dicey. On paper, I'd give rebound ace/slow Aussie hardcourts to Justine. Easier for her to track balls down and works with her spin. Also, I'd give US Open/fast hardcourts to Venus as it plays into her peak serve and volley.

That said, on hardcourts period, it's REALLY close. It's a pity we never really got the peak v. peak match between these two. We got close, but not close enough.

Direwolf
Dec 19th, 2012, 04:30 PM
Justine wouldnt beat peak Venus on clay even.

heavyhorse
Dec 19th, 2012, 04:34 PM
Venus all courts except clay.

heavyhorse
Dec 19th, 2012, 04:35 PM
Justine wouldnt beat peak Venus on clay even.

Lol true.

heavyhorse
Dec 19th, 2012, 04:38 PM
Venus wins everywhere except clay. Apparently Justine was more intimidated by Venus than Serena.

This is also true. Particularly on grass. I remember after her defeat by Marion Bartoli at Wimbledon in 2007, she said the reason she lost was because she knew she wouldn't be able to beat Venus in the finals. Or something along those lines.

Sammo
Dec 19th, 2012, 05:58 PM
This is also true. Particularly on grass. I remember after her defeat by Marion Bartoli at Wimbledon in 2007, she said the reason she lost was because she knew she wouldn't be able to beat Venus in the finals. Or something along those lines.

What a way to throw shade at Bartoli :tape:

madmax
Dec 19th, 2012, 06:00 PM
Justine everywhere except on grass

jrollaneres25
Dec 19th, 2012, 06:04 PM
http://i.imgur.com/lxfN3.gif

jrollaneres25
Dec 19th, 2012, 06:05 PM
And as far a voting, there isn't an option available to me....:o

jrollaneres25
Dec 19th, 2012, 06:14 PM
Justine wouldnt beat peak Venus on clay even.

Lol true.

Sooo true:lol:

debby
Dec 19th, 2012, 06:29 PM
Justine wouldnt beat peak Venus on clay even.

lol ok

n1_and_uh_noone
Dec 19th, 2012, 07:09 PM
I thought peak threads had gone out of fashion? Anyway, it is about your idea of peak vs mine, and you don't wanna know how badly my idea of peak Juju would brutalize every player that every played :oh:. But of course, with all the posts here, we are gifted gloriously over-the-top visions of these acid trips involving Venus anyway :rolleyes:

JarkaFish
Dec 19th, 2012, 08:22 PM
Justine wouldnt beat peak Venus on clay even.

Eh, peak clay-court Venus would be lucky to win a set against peak clay-court Henin.

nfl46
Dec 19th, 2012, 08:39 PM
Peak Venus wins on all except Clay. Peak Venus is better than Peak Henin. That damn Serena messed it up for Venus, because it would be Venus with over 10 Grand Slams.

iWill
Dec 19th, 2012, 09:02 PM
I thought peak threads had gone out of fashion? Anyway, it is about your idea of peak vs mine, and you don't wanna know how badly my idea of peak Juju would brutalize every player that every played :oh:. But of course, with all the posts here, we are gifted gloriously over-the-top visions of these acid trips involving Venus anyway :rolleyes:

You sound so pressed about this thread/poll results lol! I'm just saying....:tape:

Matt01
Dec 19th, 2012, 09:15 PM
Peak Venus wins on all except Clay. Peak Venus is better than Peak Henin. That damn Serena messed it up for Venus, because it would be Venus with over 10 Grand Slams.


Such crap. :tape: It's Venus' own fault that she lost so many Slam finals against Serena (while Henin has a winning H2H with Serena in the Slams :wavey:)

Salve
Dec 19th, 2012, 09:20 PM
Venus wins everywhere. Even on clay.

JarkaFish
Dec 19th, 2012, 09:26 PM
Venus wins everywhere. Even on clay.

I don't get why Venus-tards think she'd even stand a chance on clay, there's a reason why one of them has 4 French Open titles and the other has 0.

Just silliness IMO. :shrug:

Vincey!
Dec 19th, 2012, 09:28 PM
Every but clay, Venus wins. I'd expect tight matches on Hard court tho, but grass court would be a total crush move for Venus.

iWill
Dec 19th, 2012, 09:31 PM
I don't get why Venus-tards think she'd even stand a chance on clay, there's a reason why one of them has 4 French Open titles and the other has 0.

Just silliness IMO. :shrug:

Its because everyone judges "Peak"to mean too many different things. Whatever your personal definition is, Peak Venus is no W/O on any surface. Not saying Justine is either but one is a bit more physically imposing than the other lol.

oneshot
Dec 19th, 2012, 09:55 PM
What's this myth of Claynus? :spit:

Alejandrawrrr
Dec 19th, 2012, 10:02 PM
I don't get why Venus-tards think she'd even stand a chance on clay, there's a reason why one of them has 4 French Open titles and the other has 0.

Just silliness IMO. :shrug:

I don't necessarily think Venus would win her H2H against Henin on clay, but it's not like it's completely unreasonable for some to think so. The thread isn't asking for who is greater on each surface, but who would win in a Peak vs Peak meeting. And with Venus leading their H2H 7-2(1-1 on clay, though Venus' win was in three and Henin's was in straights.) The closest they've ever come to meeting eachother during their primes would be on slow rebound ace at 2003 Australian Open SF, where Venus won 6-3 6-3. Of course if you compare their career accomplishments it's Henin > Venus on clay without question, but due to the nature of their matchup it would be interesting to see :shrug:

n1_and_uh_noone
Dec 19th, 2012, 10:09 PM
Since when is 2003 AO SF considered closest to their primes?? Henin had not even won her 1st Slam. 2007 USO SF (in before mentions of anemia, Sjogren's etc) is way closer. Both had won Slams that year, in fact Venus at 2007 W was scary good in her last matches, and was considered a huge threat at the USO as well the way she was playing.

I guess people like to think that their faves at their peak would not be bothered by ANYTHING, including good varied play, strong offense and creative defense, but just swat away winner after winner in 6-0, 6-0 double-golden-set routs.

Sorry people, there is just 1 peak Pierce.

Alejandrawrrr
Dec 19th, 2012, 10:42 PM
Since when is 2003 AO SF considered closest to their primes?? Henin had not even won her 1st Slam. 2007 USO SF (in before mentions of anemia, Sjogren's etc) is way closer. Both had won Slams that year, in fact Venus at 2007 W was scary good in her last matches, and was considered a huge threat at the USO as well the way she was playing.

Saying that Justine had not even won her first slam is a bit of a misrepresentation. That was in a year that her slam results were SF/W/SF/W, only comparable to two other calendar years she had (2007's DNP/W/SF/W and 2006's F/W/F/F.) IIRC Venus was the #2 seed and Justine was the #4 seed, it's not like they were worlds apart. It's disingenuous to try and write that one off, just because it was a couple of months before her first official slam. It's not like her form changed by any degree worth noting after the AO, her improvement in results was due largely to the change of surface.

2007 USO was Henin at her absolute apex on a HC and Venus playing well for her post-prime standards, so it's a close second in my book. And saying "inb4" something doesn't make it any less true. Frankly, I will never consider a match of Venus' from 2007-on a good representation of her peak capabilities because regardless of how good her serve, return, groundstrokes may be, having a fatigue-inducing autoimmune disease means you will ALWAYS be at a disadvantage against a healthy athlete, especially a world class one such as Henin... Especially when one of your greatest attributes was your athleticism/physical superiority to all contemporaries bar Serena or Kim.

And I won't even dignify that second paragraph with a response since I never suggested anything like that.

Doully
Dec 19th, 2012, 10:44 PM
Who fucking cares.

Hurry up 2013.

BuTtErFrEnA
Dec 19th, 2012, 11:38 PM
Since when is 2003 AO SF considered closest to their primes?? Henin had not even won her 1st Slam. 2007 USO SF (in before mentions of anemia, Sjogren's etc) is way closer. Both had won Slams that year, in fact Venus at 2007 W was scary good in her last matches, and was considered a huge threat at the USO as well the way she was playing.

I guess people like to think that their faves at their peak would not be bothered by ANYTHING, including good varied play, strong offense and creative defense, but just swat away winner after winner in 6-0, 6-0 double-golden-set routs.

Sorry people, there is just 1 peak Pierce.


genuine question: why is every loss handin and kimothy suffered before they won slams this huge indicator as to why the losses are invalid??? weren't they good enough then to beat everyone else in the field (reaching semis and winning wta titles) except 2 players?? :confused:

nfl46
Dec 19th, 2012, 11:52 PM
Such crap. :tape: It's Venus' own fault that she lost so many Slam finals against Serena (while Henin has a winning H2H with Serena in the Slams :wavey:)

We are well aware Venus lost fair and square, I"m just saying, if Serena wasn't soooo good, Venus would have over 10 slams.

n1_and_uh_noone
Dec 19th, 2012, 11:58 PM
genuine question: why is every loss handin and kimothy suffered before they won slams this huge indicator as to why the losses are invalid??? weren't they good enough then to beat everyone else in the field (reaching semis and winning wta titles) except 2 players?? :confused:

Take a second. Breathe deep... then READ. I said close to their peaks. I'd love to see any Williams fan claim their peaks were in 1998-99. :lol: Anyone? Thought so? Quite obviously, everyone will pick Slam-winning form as one's peak.

Besides, Justine and Kim had beaten one or the other before winning their first Slams.

starbucks27
Dec 20th, 2012, 01:52 AM
Venus is insanely overrated on this poll. Even one eight of people picking her to win on clay, is that freaking insane. Venus would be lucky to get 3 games off peak Henin on clay. Their matches on grass would be closer than clay. Anyway I picked the last option, but it could easily be Henin on all but grass too.

starbucks27
Dec 20th, 2012, 01:56 AM
genuine question: why is every loss handin and kimothy suffered before they won slams this huge indicator as to why the losses are invalid??? weren't they good enough then to beat everyone else in the field (reaching semis and winning wta titles) except 2 players?? :confused:

You make it sound like Henin and Clijsters were dominating the field outside the Williams in 2001 and 2002, but if you believe that you apparently were in a coma. Their 2002 slam results for instance:

Australian Open- Henin loses to Clijsters in quarters, wins only 5 games, Clijsters loses 6-1 in final set to Capriati in semis.

French Open- Henin loses 1st round to some player I cant even remember, Clijsters 3rd round to Clarissa Fernandez.

Wimbledon- Henin loses semis to Venus, Clijsters loses 2nd round to an old Likhovtseva

U.S Open- Henin lost round of 16 to Hantuchova, Clijsters loses round of 16 to Mauresmo.

DemWilliamsGulls
Dec 20th, 2012, 03:02 AM
To be honest, I dont think a peak Serena can beat a peak Venus. Venus was a BEAST when she was on her game. She was fast, volleys well, consistent, good ground strokes, fastest first serve...it just kinda started falling apart in 2004....and was only consistent on grass. Justine Henin will always be #3 behind peak Williams Sisters in my opinion. I did LOVE Justine's game she was very feisty on the court and a respected player, but the Williams Sisters changed the game with their level of play and she had to rise to the level that THEY set.

starbucks27
Dec 20th, 2012, 08:29 AM
To be honest, I dont think a peak Serena can beat a peak Venus.

Hahaha that is a good laugh. Venus only once in her career made an Australian Open final and a French Open final. She only once in her career made 4 slam finals in a row, and 5 out of 6. This occured guess when? Oh yeah the period she lost 5 straight slam finals to Serena, despite what I mentioned proving beyond a doubt she was playing her peak tennis.

Venus seems to be insanely overrated on this forum. Better than peak Henin on all surfaces, including clay, where a baby nowhere near prime Henin beat peak Venus 6-4, 6-1 in their first ever match on clay. Better than peak Serena who beat her in 5 straight slam finals in the only time in Venus's career she was good enough to make so many slam finals in a row. What a joke.

spencercarlos
Dec 20th, 2012, 10:20 AM
To be honest, I dont think a peak Serena can beat a peak Venus. Venus was a BEAST when she was on her game. She was fast, volleys well, consistent, good ground strokes, fastest first serve...it just kinda started falling apart in 2004....and was only consistent on grass. Justine Henin will always be #3 behind peak Williams Sisters in my opinion. I did LOVE Justine's game she was very feisty on the court and a respected player, but the Williams Sisters changed the game with their level of play and she had to rise to the level that THEY set.
That beast just barely beat Hingis in two grand slam matches, in two fast courts, like Wimbledon and Usopen.
Serena in fact cleared the path for others and remarked how flawed Venus tecnique is on her forehand, and many others followed.

vixter
Dec 20th, 2012, 11:24 AM
That beast just barely beat Hingis in two grand slam matches, in two fast courts, like Wimbledon and Usopen.
Serena in fact cleared the path for others and remarked how flawed Venus tecnique is on her forehand, and many others followed.

I guess you refer to the defeats of Hingis at Wimbledon and Us Open in 2000. I'd say the Venus of 2000 is not yet Peak Venus, even though she picked up her first two slams this year. No, the BEAST peak Venus came to life at US hardcourts in 2001-2002. Truly an unstoppable force. Ask Clijsters, Davenport, Seles, Capriati, who all had the honor of receiving one or more straight set defeats by BEAST peak Venus in this time.

vixter
Dec 20th, 2012, 11:36 AM
Hahaha that is a good laugh. Venus only once in her career made an Australian Open final and a French Open final. She only once in her career made 4 slam finals in a row, and 5 out of 6. This occured guess when? Oh yeah the period she lost 5 straight slam finals to Serena, despite what I mentioned proving beyond a doubt she was playing her peak tennis.

Venus seems to be insanely overrated on this forum. Better than peak Henin on all surfaces, including clay, where a baby nowhere near prime Henin beat peak Venus 6-4, 6-1 in their first ever match on clay. Better than peak Serena who beat her in 5 straight slam finals in the only time in Venus's career she was good enough to make so many slam finals in a row. What a joke.

All credits to Henin in that 6-4 6-1 match, she truly played an unbeliavable match, painting all the lines white. Even Venus said afterwards that "if she plays every match like this, she will be number 1".

How can a player like Venus Williams, 7 times GS winner, be overrated? She is one of the most influencial and historical woman athletes of this time. If anything, her inconsistent results after her PEAK years makes people underrate her. But yes Henin was the superiour clay court player of the two.

jrollaneres25
Dec 20th, 2012, 06:11 PM
To be honest, I dont think a peak Serena can beat a peak Venus. Venus was a BEAST when she was on her game. She was fast, volleys well, consistent, good ground strokes, fastest first serve...it just kinda started falling apart in 2004....and was only consistent on grass. Justine Henin will always be #3 behind peak Williams Sisters in my opinion. I did LOVE Justine's game she was very feisty on the court and a respected player, but the Williams Sisters changed the game with their level of play and she had to rise to the level that THEY set.

I couldn't agree more. This is totally right. I believe Venus Williams is the best athlete to have ever played tennis. Her athleticism alone got her to major finals

jrollaneres25
Dec 20th, 2012, 06:15 PM
So funny that an overrated Venus Williams suffering majorly with Sjogrens in 2010 with very little match play shows up at the US Open and makes the Semi's and takes the eventual champion down to the biting nails end. #I'mjustsaying

jrollaneres25
Dec 20th, 2012, 06:16 PM
Venus is the only player in history that can hit 70 unforced errors in a match and still win or get close to winning in a 3rd set tiebreak.

UDACHi
Dec 20th, 2012, 06:36 PM
hard to think of peak venus because, for the most part, it was a million years ago. that said, i think she could overpower henin everywhere but clay. on clay no active player has a chance against peak henin.

starin
Dec 20th, 2012, 11:41 PM
2003 was the best barometer of peak vs peak and Venus smashed Henin on one of her weaker surfaces in straight sets. The claim that Venus was near her peak in 2007 while Henin was far away from hers in 2003 is just laughable. Compare Henin's 2003 record of SF, W, SF, W (slams), 6 titles to Venus' 2007 record of DNP, 3R, W, SF (slams), 2 titles.

Matt01
Dec 21st, 2012, 12:35 AM
I couldn't agree more. This is totally right. I believe Venus Williams is the best athlete to have ever played tennis. Her athleticism alone got her to major finals

So funny that an overrated Venus Williams suffering majorly with Sjogrens in 2010 with very little match play shows up at the US Open and makes the Semi's and takes the eventual champion down to the biting nails end. #I'mjustsaying

Venus is the only player in history that can hit 70 unforced errors in a match and still win or get close to winning in a 3rd set tiebreak.


:yawn: :zzz:

JarkaFish
Dec 21st, 2012, 12:53 AM
Yeah jrollaneres is a true Venus crazy.

:help:

hablo
Dec 21st, 2012, 12:58 AM
I think peak :bigwave: wins only on clay vs peak Venus.