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View Full Version : Woman in Ireland dies of septicaemia after being denied an abortion


Ferg
Nov 14th, 2012, 05:32 PM
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/1114/1224326575203.html

Two investigations are under way into the death of a woman who was 17 weeks pregnant, at University Hospital Galway last month.

Savita Halappanavar (31), a dentist, presented with back pain at the hospital on October 21st, was found to be miscarrying, and died of septicaemia a week later.

Her husband, Praveen Halappanavar (34), an engineer at Boston Scientific in Galway, says she asked several times over a three-day period that the pregnancy be terminated. He says that, having been told she was miscarrying, and after one day in severe pain, Ms Halappanavar asked for a medical termination.

This was refused, he says, because the foetal heartbeat was still present and they were told, “this is a Catholic country”.

She spent a further 2½ days “in agony” until the foetal heartbeat stopped.

Intensive care

The dead foetus was removed and Savita was taken to the high dependency unit and then the intensive care unit, where she died of septicaemia on the 28th.

An autopsy carried out by Dr Grace Callagy two days later found she died of septicaemia “documented ante-mortem” and E.coli ESBL.

A hospital spokesman confirmed the Health Service Executive had begun an investigation while the hospital had also instigated an internal investigation. He said the hospital extended its sympathy to the family and friends of Ms Halappanavar but could not discuss the details of any individual case.

Speaking from Belgaum in the Karnataka region of southwest India, Mr Halappanavar said an internal examination was performed when she first presented.

“The doctor told us the cervix was fully dilated, amniotic fluid was leaking and unfortunately the baby wouldn’t survive.” The doctor, he says, said it should be over in a few hours. There followed three days, he says, of the foetal heartbeat being checked several times a day.

“Savita was really in agony. She was very upset, but she accepted she was losing the baby. When the consultant came on the ward rounds on Monday morning Savita asked if they could not save the baby could they induce to end the pregnancy. The consultant said, ‘As long as there is a foetal heartbeat we can’t do anything’.

“Again on Tuesday morning, the ward rounds and the same discussion. The consultant said it was the law, that this is a Catholic country. Savita [a Hindu] said: ‘I am neither Irish nor Catholic’ but they said there was nothing they could do.

“That evening she developed shakes and shivering and she was vomiting. She went to use the toilet and she collapsed. There were big alarms and a doctor took bloods and started her on antibiotics.

“The next morning I said she was so sick and asked again that they just end it, but they said they couldn’t.”

Critically ill

At lunchtime the foetal heart had stopped and Ms Halappanavar was brought to theatre to have the womb contents removed. “When she came out she was talking okay but she was very sick. That’s the last time I spoke to her.”

At 11 pm he got a call from the hospital. “They said they were shifting her to intensive care. Her heart and pulse were low, her temperature was high. She was sedated and critical but stable. She stayed stable on Friday but by 7pm on Saturday they said her heart, kidneys and liver weren’t functioning. She was critically ill. That night, we lost her.”

Mr Halappanavar took his wife’s body home on Thursday, November 1st, where she was cremated and laid to rest on November 3rd.

The hospital spokesman said that in general sudden hospital deaths were reported to the coroner. In the case of maternal deaths, a risk review of the case was carried out.

External experts were involved in this review and the family consulted on the terms of reference. They were also interviewed by the review team and given a copy of the report.

God, I hate this country so much sometimes. There goes the 'pro-life' nuts notion that no woman ever needs an abortion. Heartbeat of a dying foetus favoured over the life of a woman. So much for being 'pro-life'.

kwilliams
Nov 14th, 2012, 06:25 PM
It was good to see the protest in Dublin on the news tonight though. It seemed like a good turnout on such short notice. There's another protest scheduled for Saturday. I might go.

It seems that I was not alone in thinking that clearer provisions were not in place for doctors. It seems like they really have to wait until the danger is imminent before they can act. I'm kind of in shock that abortions are restricted to such a high level. It's so tragic. She was so young and the last few days of her life must have been filled with so much pain and anguish. Why should a woman have to go through such physical and emotional pain if the foetus is completely unviable?

I heard that her parents had just returned to India the day before she was taken to hospital but had left clothes behind in Savita's home in Galway for their intended return in March to see their grandchild. Now they've lost both their child and their grandchild. Praveen very nobly said that there was no use in being angry. He didn't seem to blame the doctors/consultants but said he wished for no one else to have to go through this! The Diwali festival in Galway has been cancelled in memory of Savita. Apparently, she played a big part in organising the festival.

The Catholic country comment irks me a lot. Was that supposed to be a reason or were staff just explaining why our laws are so f*ed up!? Either way, it's not really an accurate statement anymore and it's time our laws reflected that and safeguarded mothers' lives!

RIP Savita! I hope your death is not completely in vain and brings about some positive change in this country. You won't be forgotten :sad:

égalité
Nov 14th, 2012, 09:39 PM
"Pro-life" is one of the biggest misnomers out there. This whole mindset is anti-woman and that's about it.

Nicolás89
Nov 14th, 2012, 09:55 PM
Religion should stay out of personal medical decisions.

Bijoux0021
Nov 14th, 2012, 10:05 PM
"Pro-life" is one of the biggest misnomers out there. This whole mindset is anti-woman and that's about it.

Religion should stay out of personal medical decisions.
These.

kwilliams
Nov 14th, 2012, 10:11 PM
I read a Huffington Post article that said that the people rejected two referenda to allow for life saving terminations but actually what was rejected (TWICE!) were anti-abortion proposals. The people voted in favour of the 1992 supreme court ruling allowing abortions when a woman's life is at risk. This is not the only time an Irish government has held a referendum a second time because the results were contentious or difficult to enact. There should be uproar when any government tries to pull this shite! We're too apathetic in Ireland. It has taken a death for us to really try to force this issue...but force it, we will!! People (or at least people in my demographic) are outraged.

In the end, although lives may be saved in the future, it's all too little too late for poor Savita.

debby
Nov 14th, 2012, 10:36 PM
I heard that her parents had just returned to India the day before she was taken to hospital but had left clothes behind in Savita's home in Galway for their intended return in March to see their grandchild. Now they've lost both their child and their grandchild.

:sad: :sad: :sad: This depresses me for the whole night.


RIP Savita... What a shame. Religions.. ugh

hablo
Nov 14th, 2012, 11:54 PM
RIP :sad:

Keegan
Nov 15th, 2012, 02:42 AM
I swear I've read before that abortion is illegal in Ireland unless the pregnancy poses a risk to the health of the mother, which this evidently did. The doctors were 100% in the wrong here, and now they've lost two jobs. I hope whoever was involved is blacklisted as this is a massive and controversial problem.

McPie
Nov 15th, 2012, 03:52 AM
oh when will they ever learnt :shrug:

kwilliams
Nov 15th, 2012, 12:31 PM
I swear I've read before that abortion is illegal in Ireland unless the pregnancy poses a risk to the health of the mother, which this evidently did. The doctors were 100% in the wrong here, and now they've lost two jobs. I hope whoever was involved is blacklisted as this is a massive and controversial problem.

I assume you mean lives?

As skeptical as I am about the involvement of the doctors, they were obeying/upholding the law. The blame lies completely with all of the governments that have been in power since 1992 and they failure to uphold the will of the people and legislative for life-saving terminations. Savita would have likely been saved had the the will of the people been heard and respected or if the public had forced the issue. We're too complacent and apathetic here. The rest of Europe riots over austerity measures, we have a quite protest and then just grumble about it afterwards. Our government don't fear us, as they should. We are to blame as much as they are.

Bijoux0021
Nov 15th, 2012, 01:19 PM
Every time I read these horrible stories regarding some people denying women the right to make decisions about their own bodies, I think of these 2 quotes below:

“If men could get pregnant, abortion clinics would be like Starbucks - two on every block and four in every airport. And the morning-after pill would come in different flavors, like sea salt and cool ranch.”

"If Men Could Get Pregnant, Abortion Would be a Sacrament."

skanky~skanketta
Nov 15th, 2012, 02:20 PM
OMG I cant imagine the pain she must have gone through. My heat goes out to the family. And WTF @ the law.

LoveFifteen
Nov 15th, 2012, 02:41 PM
This is absolutely horrible. When will the world finally cast off religious wackos and stop letting them oppress us???

Ashi
Nov 15th, 2012, 03:52 PM
This is ALL over the news in India. Every newschannel worth their salt is airing this & having debates.
RIP

kwilliams
Nov 15th, 2012, 05:52 PM
I saw some of the coverage from an Indian news station on the news tonight. I think the issue took up most of the parliamentary proceedings again today. Legislation to permit life saving terminations has already been drawn up. Why have governments dragged their heels for so long? Now that legislation may needed to be addended or altered to give further guidelines/criteria so as to avoid another situation or a particular situation like Savita's. I wonder how long it will be before it's actually written into the law.

Those quotes you posted really ring true, Bijoux. If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a non-issue.

Olórin
Nov 15th, 2012, 05:54 PM
I saw this on the news yesterday and it was really upsetting to say the least.

Sometimes it's just as if, world: :banghead:

jameshazza
Nov 15th, 2012, 06:14 PM
Every time I read these horrible stories regarding some people denying women the right to make decisions about their own bodies, I think of these 2 quotes below:

“If men could get pregnant, abortion clinics would be like Starbucks - two on every block and four in every airport. And the morning-after pill would come in different flavors, like sea salt and cool ranch.”

"If Men Could Get Pregnant, Abortion Would be a Sacrament."

Love those.


Heard about this yesterday.:sad:
Such a shame, religion has no place is medicine and I'm not sure why people are so pressed in trying to cling to it regardless of the effect on others' lives.

Novichok
Nov 15th, 2012, 06:57 PM
"Pro-life" is one of the biggest misnomers out there. This whole mindset is anti-woman and that's about it.

I don't see how being pro-life means that one is anti-woman.

delicatecutter
Nov 15th, 2012, 07:01 PM
I don't see how being pro-life means that one is anti-woman.

Because it's against letting a woman be in control of her own body

Novichok
Nov 15th, 2012, 07:08 PM
Because it's against letting a woman be in control of her own body

But that doesn't show that people who are pro-life are anti-woman. It shows that they are "anti-letting women do whatever they want with their bodies".

moodin0931
Nov 15th, 2012, 07:51 PM
Yes because letting people do what they want regarding anything has gotten this world so far :tape:

moodin0931
Nov 15th, 2012, 07:52 PM
But I do believe that if it is going to kill the mother than it is ok

Sammo
Nov 15th, 2012, 08:05 PM
I saw some of the coverage from an Indian news station on the news tonight. I think the issue took up most of the parliamentary proceedings again today. Legislation to permit life saving terminations has already been drawn up. Why have governments dragged their heels for so long? Now that legislation may needed to be addended or altered to give further guidelines/criteria so as to avoid another situation or a particular situation like Savita's. I wonder how long it will be before it's actually written into the law.

Those quotes you posted really ring true, Bijoux. If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a non-issue.

It's true, really.

*JR*
Nov 15th, 2012, 10:10 PM
I swear I've read before that abortion is illegal in Ireland unless the pregnancy poses a risk to the health of the mother, which this evidently did. The doctors were 100% in the wrong here, and now they've lost two jobs. I hope whoever was involved is blacklisted as this is a massive and controversial problem.

From the news coverage I've seen, it seems that the Irish Constitution was amended in 1992, to permit abortions when the mother's life would be @ risk. The fault is shared by the Dail (Parliament) for not passing the legislation to comply with that, with the medical regulators for not shaming them into doing so; and with the doctors & their lawyers, for not having the guts to say that the Constitution is the supreme law in any country.

DeucesAreWild
Nov 15th, 2012, 10:49 PM
Because it's against letting a woman be in control of her own body

This is not true. Being "pro-life" can mean more than one thing. I consider myself "pro-life". I have my beliefs but, I do not feel I have the authority or justification to stop a woman from having an abortion. I feel that statement is a gross generalization.

I feel sorry for this woman and her husband. She was in the midst of having a miscarriage, therefore the baby would never have survived. This is where common sense must be used. Saving the mothers life takes precedence over a child that had no hope of ever being born. Hopefully such a tragedy will aid in throwing off the chains of rigid legalism(religiously speaking).

jameshazza
Nov 15th, 2012, 10:51 PM
From the news coverage I've seen, it seems that the Irish Constitution was amended in 1992, to permit abortions when the mother's life would be @ risk. The fault is shared by the Dail (Parliament) for not passing the legislation to comply with that, with the medical regulators for not shaming them into doing so; and with the doctors & their lawyers, for not having the guts to say that the Constitution is the supreme law in any country.

I don't think one person truly understands the Irish medical system. They just know it refuses to change.

Pops Maellard
Nov 15th, 2012, 11:02 PM
That is so wrong :speakles::sad:.

Mynarco
Nov 16th, 2012, 03:22 AM
I think it's more about doctors' misjudgments rather than the law per se. Of course the law needs to change but I do think had the doctors shown a bit of sense this should not have happened

Noten
Nov 16th, 2012, 08:04 AM
But that doesn't show that people who are pro-life are anti-woman. It shows that they are "anti-letting women do whatever they want with their bodies".

And thus patriarchy imposes its way, which is the very root of misogyny.

ivanban
Nov 16th, 2012, 09:25 AM
But that doesn't show that people who are pro-life are anti-woman. It shows that they are "anti-letting women do whatever they want with their bodies".

:unsure: Even if it means a woman will die?!

Nice one, bro :weirdo:

égalité
Nov 16th, 2012, 11:19 AM
But that doesn't show that people who are pro-life are anti-woman. It shows that they are "anti-letting women do whatever they want with their bodies".

I don't really see the point of distinguishing between things like "anti-gay" and "anti-letting gay people have equal rights." :lol:

kwilliams
Nov 16th, 2012, 06:40 PM
http://www.facebook.com/events/243742145755096/244576182338359/?ref=notif&notif_t=event_mall_reply

Maybe people could join this event and attend in spirit. Think of Savita.

Novichok
Nov 16th, 2012, 07:03 PM
And thus patriarchy imposes its way, which is the very root of misogyny.

Please explain. :lol:

:unsure: Even if it means a woman will die?!

Nice one, bro :weirdo:

I've never said that I'm against abortion in any case. :weirdo:

I don't really see the point of distinguishing between things like "anti-gay" and "anti-letting gay people have equal rights." :lol:

I think there's a relevant difference between being against abortion and being against gay rights. Most people who are against gay rights are against them because they believe that homosexuality is immoral or deficient in some way. But those who are against abortion don't believe that being a woman is immoral or inherently deficient. They believe that there is a relevant moral issue (the life of the fetus) that is more important than a woman's right to do whatever she wants with her body.

ivanban
Nov 16th, 2012, 07:32 PM
I've never said that I'm against abortion in any case.

Yet, you're defending it in a case where woman really died :confused:

Novichok
Nov 16th, 2012, 07:37 PM
Yet, you're defending it in a case where woman really died :confused:

No, I'm not defending it.

kwilliams
Nov 17th, 2012, 11:29 AM
I'm off to the protest/vigil later. The weather's great so it should mean a good turnout.

KournikovaFan91
Nov 17th, 2012, 02:06 PM
This is what Irish people get for constantly voting for right-wing parties :rolleyes: Of course neither FF/FG bothered to legislate on this issue cause they didn't give a shit.

Also if she wasn't foreign I think the reaction by politicians wouldn't be as great, because then it wouldn't have been such an international story.

kwilliams
Nov 17th, 2012, 06:00 PM
The organisers said there were 20,000+ people at the event today. They also rightly pointed out that we can't let the government think we're going to forget about this. There will be another protest on Wednesday evening. It will be the 4th in an 8 day period, I believe.

There were also protests/vigils in a number of other towns around the country.

jameshazza
Nov 17th, 2012, 06:58 PM
Good to hear. And no, it can't be forgotten about.

jameshazza
Nov 17th, 2012, 06:59 PM
I think it was the UCD open day today as well. So everyone would have known it was going on.

KournikovaFan91
Nov 17th, 2012, 07:08 PM
Yeah it was, was working at that in UCD so hence didn't get into town. Glad it got good turnout.

Surely the Labour Party should be breaking their neck in government to solve this issue, or will it just be yet another failure on their part. :rolleyes:

kwilliams
Nov 17th, 2012, 07:42 PM
That's what a lot of people were shouting, "Shame on Labour!"

Was the open day today for Leaving Cert students? I miss UCD :sad: I actually stopped by for a visit over the summer to remember old times...and to see the new facilities!

My photography mojo really wasn't working at all today but I got one nice, simple shot just before the vigil.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8348/8193289999_1891d6f1a5_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithmaguire/8193289999/)
For Savita (http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithmaguire/8193289999/) by keithmaguire (http://www.flickr.com/people/keithmaguire/), on Flickr

I like the reflection of the candlelight on the black railings - the railings of the Dáil!

kwilliams
Nov 17th, 2012, 07:44 PM
Good to hear. And no, it can't be forgotten about.

I'm determined to keep this in my mind and close to my heart. I don't want to get distracted in the coming weeks and become preoccupied with everyday life. That's why I'm posting in this thread a lot!!

KournikovaFan91
Nov 17th, 2012, 09:30 PM
Yeah was for LC students coming to have a look. I actually only went to Trinity, DCU and DKIT open days and then ended up in UCD :lol: The DKIT one was because my school dragged me there.

kwilliams
Nov 17th, 2012, 10:09 PM
What's DKIT? Is that Dundalk or something? Do you know where you want to go? I think UCD has slipped a bit in recent years but I might go back there if they offer a primary school teaching postgrad diploma, which they may be doing! :D

KournikovaFan91
Nov 17th, 2012, 10:12 PM
Yeah Dundalk Institute of Technology. Oh sorry I'm at UCD I was working at the Open Day. My first 4 CAO choices however were Trinity but I'm actually happier I came here I think.

jameshazza
Nov 17th, 2012, 10:22 PM
I'm hoping to go to UCD. Although I only decided to apply through CAO in the past few days so I didn't get a chance to organise going down today.

Did you hear much mention of the demonstrations at the open day?

KournikovaFan91
Nov 17th, 2012, 10:26 PM
A bit not a lot, I was only there for 2 hours though not the whole day. Doing stuff for the International Office btw if you go to UCD totally try and go on Erasmus or Exchange its amazing :p

jameshazza
Nov 17th, 2012, 10:27 PM
I'll look that up now. I'm hoping for Medicine and you can work in Africa in fourth year I think, I'm definitely interested in that.

Wigglytuff
Nov 17th, 2012, 10:46 PM
I said before and I will say it again, they call themselves "pro life" but they are as anti life as it gets, what they really want is forced birth. And they forced her to give birth so no harm no foul. Who cares if the mother and the father died.

Wigglytuff
Nov 17th, 2012, 11:01 PM
"Pro-life" is one of the biggest misnomers out there. This whole mindset is anti-woman and that's about it.

This!

KournikovaFan91
Nov 17th, 2012, 11:06 PM
I don't even think the pro-life or pro-choice thing applies in this case, well some crazy people might say that she should have been denied an abortion but some pro-lifers just oppose abortion on demand and accept it in medical cases like this.

TBH most sane people should agree with an abortion if the mother's life is in danger.:shrug:

Wigglytuff
Nov 17th, 2012, 11:10 PM
I don't even think the pro-life or pro-choice thing applies in this case, well some crazy people might say that she should have been denied an abortion but some pro-lifers just oppose abortion on demand and accept it in medical cases like this.

TBH most sane people should agree with an abortion if the mother's life is in danger.:shrug:

So this is the problem with laws that ban abortion except when. The hospital likely feared running afoul of the anti abortion ban and to avoid any ambiguity or risk you just let the woman die.

Abortion should be safe and legal.

KournikovaFan91
Nov 17th, 2012, 11:27 PM
I actually feel the hospital has some responsibility in this as well as law makers, yes there was now specific legislation to enforce the X Case however once that ruling was made it meant abortions could be performed if the woman's life was in danger. That should be common knowledge among doctors, no? Particularly in OBGYN.

wild.river
Nov 17th, 2012, 11:42 PM
this is an absolutely heartbreaking story.

I don't even think the pro-life or pro-choice thing applies in this case, well some crazy people might say that she should have been denied an abortion but some pro-lifers just oppose abortion on demand and accept it in medical cases like this.

TBH most sane people should agree with an abortion if the mother's life is in danger.:shrug:

i (and every other pro-lifer i know) fall under this category.

Wigglytuff
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:53 AM
I actually feel the hospital has some responsibility in this as well as law makers, yes there was now specific legislation to enforce the X Case however once that ruling was made it meant abortions could be performed if the woman's life was in danger. That should be common knowledge among doctors, no? Particularly in OBGYN.

But even in this case it's not the clear.

Say she gets the abortion and doesn't die. You know what that is? A chance for a no good forced birther to say that this was an "on demand abortion" and someone has to go to jail, because "pain" is not life threatening.

And in fact in America more than one woman has been arrested for having a misscarriage. And indeed she asked for the abortion, so it was on demand. In fact, 22 year old Christine Taylor of iowa was arrested for falling down the stairs while pregnant. Her crime? Attempted feticide. Only an international outcry saved her from facing 15 years to life. But not every woman is so lucky. All over the world women face jail time (and separation from their children for having a misscarriage or being the victim of domestic violence while pregnant or for daring to have an abortion. That's what the forced birth movement is all about. Life has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

This is exactly what every single forced birther knows. When you say the woman has to be forced to give birth unless she is dying there can only be one outcome: Thousands of women AND their fetuses will die. And that's exactly what the forced birth movement is about, forcing women to give birth no matter how many women die.

kwilliams
Nov 18th, 2012, 12:06 PM
That's awful. The poor woman. To have to go through the physical and emotional pain of (almost?) losing her child and then to be charged with attempted foeticide! (when you say "attempted," do you mean it survived?) She shouldn't have even had to go through the ordeal of an investigation.

debby
Nov 18th, 2012, 12:19 PM
But even in this case it's not the clear.

Say she gets the abortion and doesn't die. You know what that is? A chance for a no good forced birther to say that this was an "on demand abortion" and someone has to go to jail, because "pain" is not life threatening.

And in fact in America more than one woman has been arrested for having a misscarriage. And indeed she asked for the abortion, so it was on demand. In fact, 22 year old Christine Taylor of iowa was arrested for falling down the stairs while pregnant. Her crime? Attempted feticide. Only an international outcry saved her from facing 15 years to life. But not every woman is so lucky. All over the world women face jail time (and separation from their children for having a misscarriage or being the victim of domestic violence while pregnant or for daring to have an abortion. That's what the forced birth movement is all about. Life has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

This is exactly what every single forced birther knows. When you say the woman has to be forced to give birth unless she is dying there can only be one outcome: Thousands of women AND their fetuses will die. And that's exactly what the forced birth movement is about, forcing women to give birth no matter how many women die.

Wait, are you actually serious? AND IT HAPPENED IN THE US ?

Oh my god...

I AM SO FREAKING LUCKY TO LIVE IN FRANCE :help: :help: :help: My sister-in-law had a miscarriage then a still born. Well not a still born but the baby would be dead right at the birth so it was pointless to keep the baby. She was 3 months pregnant :sad: And the baby didn't have a cranium :scratch: so yeah... and she went in a great clinic where she had an abortion with medicaments and such. They took care of her, and she had two weeks off from work to recover from that. The baby was still alive you know? But she still had an abortion. Even if it happened after the legal limit of the abortion, she would have gotten it.

It's a recent law though (the abortion for medical reasons beyond 12 weeks of pregnancy), from 2002.

http://ddata.over-blog.com/xxxyyy/1/91/40/38/legislation-avortement-2007.jpg

I can't find it in english but basically :

black : abortion is illegal except if that allows to save the mother's life
dark grey : same + in case of rapes
grey : allowed if mother physically or mentally threatened by the pregnancy or/and rape
white with black dots : rape, health reasons or social economical reasons
light grey : allowed, but can be restrained by the lack of the care means.
pencil : country where the woman needs her husband's consent to have an abortion

For South America, it's said that even in cases of rape or incest, the abortion can be forbidden. :help:

I am surprised at Australia not even being light grey.

moodin0931
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:23 PM
If abortion was legal for cases involving rape or health issues I think that would be the best. :shrug:

debby
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:25 PM
If abortion was legal for cases involving rape or health issues I think that would be the best. :shrug:

Really?

What about women who got accidentally pregnant ? Who don't have enough money?

moodin0931
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:36 PM
^What about them? :shrug:

debby
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:45 PM
Everyone should have the right to get an abortion. :shrug:

moodin0931
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:50 PM
I respect your opinion but I dont believe that! :hug:

debby
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:53 PM
I respect your opinion but I dont believe that! :hug:

Why? Do you believe in God? I understand why because often those who don't believe that follow what is said in the Bible. ;)

moodin0931
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:54 PM
Why? Do you believe in God? I understand why because often those who don't believe that follow what is said in the Bible. ;)

Yes I do believe in God. Is that a problem for you? :scratch:

debby
Nov 18th, 2012, 02:00 PM
Yes I do believe in God. Is that a problem for you? :scratch:

No, I respect the beliefs of people. I just want them to respect mine as well, and you said you respected my opinion so all is good. ;)

Sorry for the OT, but what do you disagree with in the Bible? Homophobia ? or do you also think gay people should not be able to get married? :scratch: it's out topic but I wonder if Christian people can be flexible regarding the Bible ;)

KournikovaFan91
Nov 18th, 2012, 02:33 PM
What about women who got accidentally pregnant ? Who don't have enough money?

Some may say that thats tough and she should have be more careful when it comes to contraceptives, it doesn't have to come from a religious basis, it can just come from a take responsibility for actions basis.

I mean if my friend told me she wanted an abortion I wouldn't stop her or tell her not to but I would wonder why she wasn't on either the pill or the implant for example, all my female friends are on one or the other and a girl I know who wasn't did have to make a run to the pharmacy one day for the morning after pill but once again it shows she's sensible.

I feel the US debate is much different to debates in most other countries, I mean there are a few crazies who speak for the whole of the pro-life movement in the US. I'd imagine most people in Europe would approve of abortions in cases of rape and health concerns. Although not everyone might approve of abortion on demand for the religious reasons and the responsibility reasons.

I'd love if feminists put as much effort into other pro-women causes like Prostitution legalisation for example, ohh yeah they don't support that for some bullshit reason when countries like New Zealand and Australia proves it works better than any form of criminalisation elsewhere.

Strange feminists can get on their moral high horse about prostitution but not abortion.

Sorry to go on that tangent the prostitution issue really gets to me when it comes to feminists :mad:

debby
Nov 18th, 2012, 02:43 PM
Nah, it's too simplistic. I have a friend who forgot the pill (it happens, really try to take the pill everyday for 21 days in a month at the same hour - it's so ANNOYING) but took the pill of tomorrow. She got pregnant.
She changed her mind and kept her baby. She is now a happy mother of a 3yo little girl.

Pill doesn't protect you at 100% . And you can forget it, I don't see how it is that bad to forget the pill only once and boom you are pregnant, you are really unlucky. Anyone who thinks most of women think an abortion is an easy decision to have are fools IMO. Sure, there is a minority who doesn't treat abortion like it should be, but there are minorities everywhere and strange behaviours.

And why do you compare abortion to prostitution? :help:

KournikovaFan91
Nov 18th, 2012, 02:47 PM
They're both issues that effect women yet only one issue is seen as a woman's choice, when a lot of women voluntarily become prostitutes and are condemned for that or patronised by being told that they were forced into it.

Having lived in New Zealand I believe more than ever that prostitution legalisation is the only way forward for modern society.

moodin0931
Nov 18th, 2012, 02:49 PM
I can only imagine the millions upon millions of babies that were never born :hug:

moodin0931
Nov 18th, 2012, 02:50 PM
Having lived in New Zealand I believe more than ever that prostitution legalisation is the only way forward for modern society.

Really? :eek: What was it like in New Zealand?

debby
Nov 18th, 2012, 02:50 PM
They're both issues that effect women yet only one issue is seen as a woman's choice, when a lot of women voluntarily become prostitutes and are condemned for that or patronised by being told that they were forced into it.

Having lived in New Zealand I believe more than ever that prostitution legalisation is the only way forward for modern society.

I am more torn on this issue.

Some want to be prostitutes indeed, but many women are very badly treated and pimps are awful too. It's a very complicated issue, I don't think it's possible to have a black & white view on this.

KournikovaFan91
Nov 18th, 2012, 03:02 PM
But do you think its ok to have a black/white view on abortion when some may see the fetus as a baby, I can see how people may not necessarily comfortable with prostitution however opposition to both comes from a moral perspective but opposition to abortion is dismissed as archaic and backward whereas opposition to prostitution is the norm in society it seems. :shrug:

I personally think abortion should be legal and even probably on demand however I'd limit this to the first trimester only which is the case I believe in most European countries. I however understand why people are opposed to abortion.

Really? :eek: What was it like in New Zealand?

All forms of prostitution has be legal since 2003, running a brothel, escort agency, massage parlour, independent and street prostitution are all legal however coercion of a sex worker is illegal.

Street prostitution tends to be limited to certain areas for example in Auckland I used to see the odd girl on K Road cause I happened to live nearby, but in no way are prostitutes running rampant across New Zealand's cities. Its all quite discreet actually.

moodin0931
Nov 18th, 2012, 03:07 PM
All forms of prostitution has be legal since 2003, running a brothel, escort agency, massage parlour, independent and street prostitution are all legal however coercion of a sex worker is illegal.

:spit: :scratch:

wild.river
Nov 18th, 2012, 03:22 PM
Nah, it's too simplistic. I have a friend who forgot the pill (it happens, really try to take the pill everyday for 21 days in a month at the same hour - it's so ANNOYING) but took the pill of tomorrow. She got pregnant.
She changed her mind and kept her baby. She is now a happy mother of a 3yo little girl.

Pill doesn't protect you at 100% . And you can forget it, I don't see how it is that bad to forget the pill only once and boom you are pregnant, you are really unlucky. Anyone who thinks most of women think an abortion is an easy decision to have are fools IMO. Sure, there is a minority who doesn't treat abortion like it should be, but there are minorities everywhere and strange behaviours.

And why do you compare abortion to prostitution? :help:

and that's the only reason i think abortion should be legal despite being strongly pro-life..that contraceptives aren't 100% effective. (the no money argument is stupid though. do you get to murder a 2 yr old you can't afford to feed? :confused:)
my view is that until contraceptives become 100% effective, abortion should be recognized for it is..justifiable murder.

incidentally, i think prostitution should definitely be legal. i never understood why it isn't :confused: almost every person, excluding i guess the stephen hawking types, uses their body to make a living. feels arbitrary that it's ok to wait tables or give massages but not let a man be inside you. firefly got this right (inara :hearts::hearts::hearts:)

KournikovaFan91
Nov 18th, 2012, 03:26 PM
I have to say I agree regarding the economic argument, I'm not particularly keen on people getting abortions just cause it doesn't suit their financial situation, its a bit like when Irish model Katy French (RIP:sad:) said it would be fine to get an abortion if it interfered with a woman's career :tape: She was rightly criticized for that opinion.

Firefly was such a liberal show, I have the box set wish it had been given a chance :sad:

hablo
Nov 18th, 2012, 05:11 PM
I have to say I agree regarding the economic argument, I'm not particularly keen on people getting abortions just cause it doesn't suit their financial situation, its a bit like when Irish model Katy French (RIP:sad:) said it would be fine to get an abortion if it interfered with a woman's career :tape: She was rightly criticized for that opinion.

Firefly was such a liberal show, I have the box set wish it had been given a chance :sad:

Is theirs or the child-to-be's? :help:
Is it fair to bring a child into this world if you can't afford to provide for this said child?

Rocketta
Nov 18th, 2012, 05:12 PM
What a sad story! :sad:

Oh and everyone forgot to mention that a large portion of pro-lifer's are also anti contraceptives as well they feel that preventing life is as bad as ending a fetus life(their belief in life).

Yes fetuses have heartbeats very early on and I can see how it's viewed as life until you see a paracytic twin or see stories where eggs split but one never forms fully and is absorbed by the other fetus but still kind of grows inside so that when that is older they end up having to have surgery to remove teeth and bone from their bodies left behind from twins. Removal of paracytic twins is no different to me than an abortion, just way more gross because you have this mutated animated thing sucking the life out of a child but it's not really alive.... it may live but it's not alive... which is the ability to think, and be aware of the world around them in some form... other than just breathing and making noises. :yeah:

It's weird you have countries where women can't get abortions but it's alright to kill the baby after it's born because it's a female and not a male.... that's why some see pro-life as just another term for anti-woman.

Oh and for those who say not being able to support the child is not a valid reason to have an abortion..... well in the best of worlds that could be true but if you live in a poor country and having another child means not only will you not be able to feed that child the attempt to feed them will insure that your other children suffer. Also, in western societies (well let me speak for the US) it seems the very people who want everyone to have every conceived baby are the main ones complaining about social programs that help the poor. Also, (can only speak to the US) Women and children make up 70% of those living in poverty to require every woman to have an unwanted pregnancy will only increase that number and those crying about pro-life are the last to want to adopt or take care of those children.. It's an odd hypocritical position imho. :(

Rocketta
Nov 18th, 2012, 05:15 PM
Is theirs or the child-to-be's? :help:
Is it fair to bring a child into this world if you can't afford to provide for this said child?

I just pointed that out how if you are poor adding another mouth to feed in some countries can mean all your children will starve now. Also in the west, the main ones who want people to have these children are the first ones bitching and moaning about welfare and the poor. :help:

KournikovaFan91
Nov 18th, 2012, 05:19 PM
Is everyone forgetting that some fathers get lumbered with a kid they may have to pay child support to thanks to pro-life policies, its not all anti-woman. I understand in a lot of cases the fathers are completely absent but I know in Ireland of a few guys who've been stuck in a situation with a kid they don't want, not that the girl would automatically of had an abortion had it been an option but its a possibility.

I'm fed up with feminists claiming how "anti-woman" the world is, in Ireland for example its extremely rare for a man to receive full custody of a child no matter how bad a mother he faces in court the court almost always rules in the woman's favour. Some bullshit about children needing a mother more, she could be an alcoholic and still win a custody battle.

I'm not sure about other countries and father's rights but in Ireland they suck. :o

wild.river
Nov 18th, 2012, 05:30 PM
Is theirs or the child-to-be's? :help:
Is it fair to bring a child into this world if you can't afford to provide for this said child?

is it fair to keep a helpless 2 month old in this world if you can't afford to provide for this child?

hablo
Nov 18th, 2012, 05:41 PM
I just pointed that out how if you are poor adding another mouth to feed in some countries can mean all your children will starve now. Also in the west, the main ones who want people to have these children are the first ones bitching and moaning about welfare and the poor. :help:
Totally agree with you.

Anti-choice are full of paradox. They want children to come into this world at all cost and don't care what happens to these children until their parents ask for welfare. . . :o
Is everyone forgetting that some fathers get lumbered with a kid they may have to pay child support to thanks to pro-life policies, its not all anti-woman. I understand in a lot of cases the fathers are completely absent but I know in Ireland of a few guys who've been stuck in a situation with a kid they don't want, not that the girl would automatically of had an abortion had it been an option but its a possibility.

I'm fed up with feminists claiming how "anti-woman" the world is, in Ireland for example its extremely rare for a man to receive full custody of a child no matter how bad a mother he faces in court the court almost always rules in the woman's favour. Some bullshit about children needing a mother more, she could be an alcoholic and still win a custody battle.

I'm not sure about other countries and father's rights but in Ireland they suck. :o

What does this have to do with my argument that it is alright to not want to bring a child in this world if you can't provide for this child?

You're talking about custody and we're talking about abortion. :tape:

hablo
Nov 18th, 2012, 05:43 PM
is it fair to keep a helpless 2 month old in this world if you can't afford to provide for this child?

Well the 2 month old is alive already so what's your point? :help:

Rocketta
Nov 18th, 2012, 05:44 PM
yes that sucks that sometimes fathers have to pay child support (but that's just money) and some can't get custody when they are the better parent..... however, those two issues pale in comparison to countries where women lose custody of their children just because they remarry.

Sadly for men the child support issue is the risk they take by having sex unprotected just like STDs. A man can try to protect himself from an unwanted pregnancy too. May not be 100% but I'm sure if 100% of men protected themselves the .01% of pregnancies that occur would be the price to pay. BTW, paying money while you get to live your life how you want, where you want doesn't even approach the pain of the tit of breast feeding mom in inconvience to one's life of having a baby. You are talking about the absolute change physically a woman goes through during pregnancy. Then she has a child, and it's safe to say for the first year at minimum you the mom NEVER gets a restful full night sleep. You are always tired and stressed. That is just the first year. The dad may or may not be there to help. But equating a woman deciding she can not handle a pregnancy for whatever reason to a man having no say in whether has an abortion is not right. They are not equal. The consequences of the action of getting pregnant are not equal. Many not only do not help out with the children but do not pay child support. To prevent this all men have to do is where a condom and hopeful use a spermicide. However, women can be on birth control pills and mess up once like previously said or they can be on birth control and not mess up at all but get prescribed another medication that makes their BC ineffective. Some women can't take BC because of the hormones. Some women are just dumb and really think the rhythm method really works... some women have drug and alcohol problems where they are too inebriated to think rationally enough in the moment to prevent pregnancy (is these really the people who should have children?).

Either, until a man has to endure the pain of cramps from your uterus expanding to hold the baby, or deal with the mounting pressure on your bladder or the incontinence that a lot of women experience after child birth from all the pushing, or the pain of having a scalpal cut open your vagina(penis) to make more room for the baby, or have their bellies cut open for a c-section and have to endure the pain and embarrassment of having to be helped up from your bloody hospital bed to use the bathroom for the first time after a c-section (BTW, did I say that is the most painful thing in the world)... I just can't feel too sorry for them and look at the impact of pro-life legislation the same on both genders. :shrug:


And don't get me started about year two! :fiery:

wild.river
Nov 18th, 2012, 05:46 PM
Well the 2 month old is alive already so what's your point? :help:

that the baby in the womb is also alive :rolleyes:

hablo
Nov 18th, 2012, 05:48 PM
So true: men can also take responsibility for unwanted pregnancies... Wear a damn condom. It takes two to tango. :shrug:

Rocketta
Nov 18th, 2012, 05:50 PM
is it fair to keep a helpless 2 month old in this world if you can't afford to provide for this child?

well that's the point right, one is here in the world and one isn't yet? Once they are here a parent has a responsibility to provide for them until they are 18 or emmancipated. That's exactly why some people choose to terminate the pregnancy before they are here in the world. Whether you feel life begins at inception or when a child can survive outside the mom's womb, even if you consider it life, it is not alive and a 2 month old child is alive.... unless it's a vegetable kept living just pacify some parental guilt or despite all evidence the parents believe there is some consciouness going on...... Why do people pull the plugs when there is no brain function in living people because they don't feel those people are really alive anymore and are not really living just because they have life.

hablo
Nov 18th, 2012, 05:52 PM
that the baby in the womb is also alive :rolleyes:

It's a baby when it's born.

It's a baby if it's born early and can still live... :shrug:

wild.river
Nov 18th, 2012, 06:05 PM
well that's the point right, one is here in the world and one isn't yet? Once they are here a parent has a responsibility to provide for them until they are 18 or emmancipated. That's exactly why some people choose to terminate the pregnancy before they are here in the world. Whether you feel life begins at inception or when a child can survive outside the mom's womb, even if you consider it life, it is not alive and a 2 month old child is alive.... unless it's a vegetable kept living just pacify some parental guilt or despite all evidence the parents believe there is some consciouness going on...... Why do people pull the plugs when there is no brain function in living people because they don't feel those people are really alive anymore and are not really living just because they have life.

how can something be life but not alive?
a baby in the womb is alive but needs food from its mother to survive. a baby outside the womb is alive but needs food to survive.

imo, responsibility begins the moment you choose to have sex not once the baby is physically outside the womb to age 18 :shrug:

Rocketta
Nov 18th, 2012, 06:05 PM
that the baby in the womb is also alive :rolleyes:

that's debateable for quite a good length of time during pregnancy. I've had sonograms during my pregnancy starting at 6wks pregnant (which is really 4 because they count your period as part of the date) did I see life growing yes, did I see an alive baby, eh no I didn't. I didn't see that for a long time, imo. However, I know not to see that as just because a baby is growing inside of you doesn't mean he/she will ever make it out of your womb alive. I know this first hand with my sister having a miscarriage at 6 months pregnant. Guess what baby couldn't survive outside of the womb, hospital couldn't stop contractions = miscarriage. BTW, does anyone know the percentage of natural abortions, ie miscarriages that happen in the first 8-12 wks of pregnancy where the person didn't even know they were pregnant? A woman has a miscarriage because she's on medicine and doesn't know she's pregnant..... is that a murder? How about if she has a miscarriage because she does physical activities but she didn't know she was pregnant? Murder?? or I guess I should ask is that involuntary Manslaughter?

Personally I don't see any difference between those situations and an abortion. Other than knowledge of the pregnancy which history shows is never gauranteed to end in the birth of healthy baby. :shrug:

As someone said before choosing to have an abortion is very rarely down lightly. Making rules that effect the majority of a people based on the bad actions and choices of a few is never good policy. I think most Pro-Choice individuals wouldn't have an abortion unless under specific situations but that doesn't mean you want anyone controlling what situations are acceptable and which ones aren't.

wild.river
Nov 18th, 2012, 06:06 PM
It's a baby when it's born.

It's a baby if it's born early and can still live... :shrug:

so what is it before its born?

hablo
Nov 18th, 2012, 06:13 PM
so what is it before its born?

Not yet a baby.

Rocketta
Nov 18th, 2012, 06:19 PM
how can something be life but not alive?
a baby in the womb is alive but needs food from its mother to survive. a baby outside the womb is alive but needs food to survive.

imo, responsibility begins the moment you choose to have sex not once the baby is physically outside the womb to age 18 :shrug:

see my post about paracytic twins to see how something can be living but not really alive. I gave my definition of alive as being able to think and be aware of the world around them.... which is why people pull the plug on people when brain activity fails to show any cognitive activity.

Everybody needs food to survive, adults and children... clearly that's not what we mean by being able to survive outside of the womb. There is an age in pregnancy where a baby's lungs are strong enough, their heart is strong enough, their other organs are strong enough, and their brain is strong enough to try to regulate these functions and there is an age in utero where these things are not strong enough even with man made help to support life. If the lungs aren't developed enough there is nothing you can do outside of the womb that baby will not live whether it's 2 seconds, 2 minutes, or 2 days it doesn't matter that baby never had a chance of survival. Which is what makes this case so sad because it's evident the baby was not going to survive so by not aborting it all they did was put the mom's life at risk and they lost that gamble. So instead of ending the pain and madness, because some feel that if there is a heartbeat that means the baby is alive, they had to prolong the pain of the family for three days and then compound the pain by causing the mom's death. Had they just done the right thing, the mom would've been saved and actually had a chance to have another baby but now by trying to force someone to save the unsavable they have prevented the possible births of other children by this woman.

wild.river
Nov 18th, 2012, 06:30 PM
Not yet a baby.

:weirdo: asked what it is not what it isn't

wild.river
Nov 18th, 2012, 06:34 PM
see my post about paracytic twins to see how something can be living but not really alive. I gave my definition of alive as being able to think and be aware of the world around them.... which is why people pull the plug on people when brain activity fails to show any cognitive activity.

Everybody needs food to survive, adults and children... clearly that's not what we mean by being able to survive outside of the womb. There is an age in pregnancy where a baby's lungs are strong enough, their heart is strong enough, their other organs are strong enough, and their brain is strong enough to try to regulate these functions and there is an age in utero where these things are not strong enough even with man made help to support life. If the lungs aren't developed enough there is nothing you can do outside of the womb that baby will not live whether it's 2 seconds, 2 minutes, or 2 days it doesn't matter that baby never had a chance of survival. Which is what makes this case so sad because it's evident the baby was not going to survive so by not aborting it all they did was put the mom's life at risk and they lost that gamble. So instead of ending the pain and madness, because some feel that if there is a heartbeat that means the baby is alive, they had to prolong the pain of the family for three days and then compound the pain by causing the mom's death. Had they just done the right thing, the mom would've been saved and actually had a chance to have another baby but now by trying to force someone to save the unsavable they have prevented the possible births of other children by this woman.

this case is an exception though. they risked the mother's life for the baby's which i don't advocate at all.

offshoot: so do you think abortions shouldn't be allowed if organs are developed? (not including rape, incest, mother's life in danger etc in this)

hablo
Nov 18th, 2012, 06:43 PM
:weirdo: asked what it is not what it isn't

It's not yet a baby. :weirdo::shrug:

A living thing not yet able to sustain itself on its own.

See Rocketta's posts for more details.

moodin0931
Nov 18th, 2012, 06:46 PM
I thought scientists said that a fetus was a human being :scratch:

hablo
Nov 18th, 2012, 06:48 PM
I thought scientists said that a fetus was a human being :scratch:

Is it a foetus at inception? REALLY? :scratch:

moodin0931
Nov 18th, 2012, 06:49 PM
^idk I was asking :unsure:

Rocketta
Nov 18th, 2012, 07:03 PM
this case is an exception though. they risked the mother's life for the baby's which i don't advocate at all.

offshoot: so do you think abortions shouldn't be allowed if organs are developed? (not including rape, incest, mother's life in danger etc in this)

Me personally, I wouldn't oppose a ban on late term abortions and when I say late I mean late like 7 months unless the mom's life is at risk... however, whenever you limit something you always worry about abuse of power, for example say a father has impregnated his daughter, happens way too often, said father abuses, imtimidates and eventually holds her against her will, she escapes and does not want to have this baby but she is 7 months, who am I to say to her she must have the baby and can give it up for adoption if she doesn't want to keep him/her? Maybe the thought of having an incest baby in this world would be too much for her, maybe if she has the baby her mom will get custody the same mom who turned a blind eye to the abuse in the home, it happens.... I don't know if I want to limit that person's choices so I guess I'm for a ban on late term abortions except for specific cases where the doctor/social worker will document the cause of the abortion. :shrug:

BTW, just fyi for people..... most doctors will not even contemplate inducing labor or giving a c-section unless absolutely has to prior to 37 wks... that's how far a long they feel you should be before there is a significant risk of complications with the baby outside of the womb. So if you can wait, they generally will make you wait until you are 37 wks... Let's say you are only 35 wks on Dec 31, 2012 and want to induce labor to get the tax break of a dependent for 2012.... most doctors will tell so sorry too bad.....

KournikovaFan91
Nov 18th, 2012, 07:07 PM
What does this have to do with my argument that it is alright to not want to bring a child in this world if you can't provide for this child?


I was trying to address why its only a woman's issue when men are required to make the baby for example what if a scenario emerged with a woman wanting an abortion and the father not wanting one or vice versa. Ok the woman is the vessel that carries the baby but I don't think this is only something effects women yet it is presented in that manner.

Rocketta
Nov 18th, 2012, 07:11 PM
BTW, is there a concensus what the science community calles a fetus or when life begins? :confused:

hablo
Nov 18th, 2012, 07:18 PM
I was trying to address why its only a woman's issue when men are required to make the baby for example what if a scenario emerged with a woman wanting an abortion and the father not wanting one or vice versa. Ok the woman is the vessel that carries the baby but I don't think this is only something effects women yet it is presented in that manner.

Are you a guy? I think you may have a different viewpoint if you were in a situation where you wanted an abortion and everyone around was opposed to it (the father, your family or whomever). Why should you be forced to have a baby you do not want for whatever reason?

Read Rocketta's posts. I think she articulates very well what pregnancy is like and how it affects women.

Once again, a man has a say: he can choose to wear a condom, not have sex or have a visectomy (if he really does not want children). And I read recently that a pill was being made for men (contraceptive). Thank goodness.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48689501/ns/health-mens_health/t/new-cancer-drug-affects-sperm-study-shows-finally-male-birth-control-pill/

Rocketta
Nov 18th, 2012, 07:20 PM
I was trying to address why its only a woman's issue when men are required to make the baby for example what if a scenario emerged with a woman wanting an abortion and the father not wanting one or vice versa. Ok the woman is the vessel that carries the baby but I don't think this is only something effects women yet it is presented in that manner.

Unfortunately, for men they only play a part in conception but no part in the development and birth of a baby. That is 100% due to the mom and her body. The man has a part in the development and raising of the child if he wants but he still usually has a choice. So a woman can't get pregnant without a man's sperm but that's the beginning and end of what a woman needs from the man. So, seeing as it's her body and her body only whether she wants her body to carry a child or not is only up to her. After a child is born they may need a father but that is not forced on men. All that is forced on them is to pay money for me it's no different than forcing them to pay taxes.... no one likes it but we do it. :shrug:

KournikovaFan91
Nov 18th, 2012, 07:24 PM
Once again, a man has a say: he can choose to wear a condom, not have sex or have a visectomy (if he really does not want children). And I read recently that a pill was being made for men (contraceptive). Thank goodness.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48689501/ns/health-mens_health/t/new-cancer-drug-affects-sperm-study-shows-finally-male-birth-control-pill/

And women don't have a say to take the pill or the implant which unlike the pill doesn't require you to take it daily, its just inside you non-stop.

I actually agree with abortions in rape cases and have even said I reckon they should probably be legalised for the first trimester on demand however to make every woman who has an abortion into some kind of helpless victim is patronising and false.

Of course your post has just summed up the feminist argument that somehow men who don't manage contraception are looked at negatively but women who don't are viewed as unfortunate victims.

Also by feminist I'm obviously not referring to lipstick feminism just Germaine Greer and that archaic type :o

hablo
Nov 18th, 2012, 07:35 PM
And women don't have a say to take the pill or the implant which unlike the pill doesn't require you to take it daily, its just inside you non-stop.

I actually agree with abortions in rape cases and have even said I reckon they should probably be legalised for the first trimester on demand however to make every woman who has an abortion into some kind of helpless victim is patronising and false.

Of course your post has just summed up the feminist argument that somehow men who don't manage contraception are looked at negatively but women who don't are viewed as unfortunate victims.

Also by feminist I'm obviously not referring to lipstick feminism just Germaine Greer and that archaic type :oWhere are you getting this stuff from? Give me an example of this.

Last time I checked it's the women who get pregnant who have to explain themselves. ALL THE TIME. Who's making every woman who has an abortion into some kind of helpless victim? You have a chip on your shoulder here.

And I don't understand the first sentence of your post. Please rephrase it. You don't like the idea of men soon being able to use contraception (the pill)??

KournikovaFan91
Nov 18th, 2012, 08:04 PM
No men's pills are fine but its also a woman's responsibility contraception, like to say men can choose to wear a condom a woman can also choose to take the pill/implant.

hablo
Nov 18th, 2012, 08:07 PM
Ok. So please address the part I bolded in your last post?

kwilliams
Nov 21st, 2012, 07:50 PM
Looks like it was another really good turnout at the protest tonight. I'm glad the public discourse is continuing though some people are still trying to muddy the waters. There have been demonstrations of some sort in different towns and cities all around the country for 8 days straight now, I believe.

There have also been demonstrations of varying sizes outside Irish embassies in London, NYC, Berlin, Vienna, Stockholm, Edinburgh and other major cities.

If you're interested in this issue, please like this fb page:

http://www.facebook.com/SavitasLaws

More importantly, please sign this petition!

https://www.change.org/petitions/support-reproductive-rights-in-ireland

Ferg
Nov 21st, 2012, 08:48 PM
On the other hand, the union or whatever of Irish bishops has come out and said we should 'cherish' our abortion laws and said there should be no abortion any under circumstance... Christ they make me sick. The church is unpopular enough in this country at the moment, their stupidity in coming out with that is astounding.

moodin0931
Nov 21st, 2012, 08:54 PM
On the other hand, the union or whatever of Irish bishops has come out and said we should 'cherish' our abortion laws and said there should be no abortion any under circumstance... Christ they make me sick. The church is unpopular enough in this country at the moment, their stupidity in coming out with that is astounding.

I dont understand why this makes people sick :scratch: :rolleyes:

Ferg
Nov 21st, 2012, 09:00 PM
I dont understand why this makes people sick :scratch: :rolleyes:

I dont understand why some people are so heartless. But if you think a woman with a dying foetus cant get an abortion to save her life, and that she should die too, hey, I suppose thats just your twisted opinion.

moodin0931
Nov 21st, 2012, 09:02 PM
I dont understand why some people are so heartless. But if you think a woman with a dying foetus cant get an abortion to save her life, and that she should die too, hey, I suppose thats just your twisted opinion.

I never said that but I do respect people who are still true to their beliefs despite all the hate they get. But yes if the baby is dying and the woman's life is in risk she should be able to get an abortion. However, I don't think that that is really an abortion. :shrug: :hug:

Flavia P.
Nov 21st, 2012, 09:12 PM
But that is an abortion. It is an abortion, but it's a form of abortion people find acceptable so they don't consider it a "real" abortion or connect it to "irresponsible" abortions. Which in itself is nothing more than moral police gone mad. Morality and science very often do not mix.

moodin0931
Nov 21st, 2012, 09:18 PM
People these days :o

ivanban
Nov 21st, 2012, 11:43 PM
I never said that but I do respect people who are still true to their beliefs despite all the hate they get. But yes if the baby is dying and the woman's life is in risk she should be able to get an abortion. However, I don't think that that is really an abortion. :shrug: :hug:

That would seem kinda OK if the poor woman who died actually had the same belief as the ones who didn't let her have the abortion :shrug: