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View Full Version : WWW Peak Venus vs Peak Kim


TPlaya8
Nov 14th, 2012, 02:33 AM
http://thedoublebagel.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/wimbledon_062910_venusclijsters.jpg


Who Will Win?

H2H

6-7

Grand Slams

7-4

Other Titles

37 *tied*

Weeks at #1

11-20

YEC

1-3

Tier 1/Premier mandatory

6-7

Olympic Gold Medals

1-0

They had a pretty interesting rivalary. Not heated like the other Williams vs Belgium but still a good amount of tension. They played 13 times. 6 matches went 3 sets Kim won 4 of those. 7 of the matches were straight sets. Venus won 4 of those and one of Kim's win was a retirement from Venus in the YEC 2002 SF. They played each other 5 times in grand slams. Kims holds the edge 3-2. They also played 5 times in final Kim holds the edge there 3-2 as well. Kim won the last 5 matches from 2005 onwards. All of the matches except 4 were on hardcourt were Kim holds a 5-4 edge. Venus won the one 3 set match on grass and the 2 straight set matches on Carpet. Kim won the one 3 set match on clay. Venus beat Kim enroute to the 2001 US open, Kim beat Venus enroute to all 3 of her US open titles '05, '09, '10.

Venus has losing H2H to Davenport, Hingis, Serena, and Maria *all except Serena by 1*

Kim has Losing H2H to Serena and Seles and *tied with Capriati and only played Seles once*

Freak3yman84
Nov 14th, 2012, 02:35 AM
Kim IMO. Much better curves :shrug:

+1. And a better face.

VultureHater
Nov 14th, 2012, 02:41 AM
Both of them could produce in the big events and not mickey mouse arenas. That makes it tough to predict but for me Kim has more variety and would win except on grass.

Freak3yman84
Nov 14th, 2012, 02:43 AM
That pic of Kimmy made me horny (srs). Another thing that puts her above Venus is stretching:

http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2011/01/29/1225996/740120-kim-major.jpg

Imagine how well it translates in bed :yeah:

:drool: :bounce: :hearts: Venustards will still claim otherwise :o

TPlaya8
Nov 14th, 2012, 02:43 AM
If I go by Peak vs Peak I feel like my Heart says Venus! I think a physically fit Venus at her peak vs a physically fit Kim at her Peak will still beat Kim. In all of their matches after 2005 I don't think Venus was ever physically fit enough to hang with Kim in 3 sets like before, and since mentally she was not able to compete with her she lost those matches in the 3rd set. 2010 Miami F was an anamoaly I think that was one of Venus off/Sjogrens days. i think physically Venus could not keep up in that 2005 US QF. In the 2009 4th round I think it was physical and mental she folded and Kim was stronger. 2010 SF I think Venus folded mentally in the 2nd Set then Kim just outlasted her physically in the 3rd.

2005 and after was a mentally stronger Kim while Venus was mentally weaker then lets say 2003 when she was down a set and injured in the Wimbledon SF but still came back and won 6-1 in the 3rd!

But at Peak I say Venus!

TPlaya8
Nov 14th, 2012, 02:15 PM
Both of them could produce in the big events and not mickey mouse arenas. That makes it tough to predict but for me Kim has more variety and would win except on grass.

You don't think the Venus of 00-02 could beat Kim on Hardcourts.

dsanders06
Nov 14th, 2012, 02:44 PM
Peak Venus is the better player, but Peak Kim would probably win this match-up on everything bar grass because Venus even at her best simply doesn't have reliable enough groundstrokes to hold up against a player like Kim brings everything back.

Inger67
Nov 14th, 2012, 03:22 PM
+1. And a better face.

:spit: :haha:

ExXotikal
Nov 14th, 2012, 03:28 PM
Peak Napnus on every surface.

danieln1
Nov 14th, 2012, 05:32 PM
WTF????

Venus much more talented, better player, better athlete

6-2 7-5

L'Enfant Sauvage
Nov 14th, 2012, 06:58 PM
In terms of peak, Venus on probably every surface. Kim did well to capitalize during the Sjogrenus era, but then again so would basically any other WTA golden age(99-03) player playing even decent tennis(+ Pironkova.)

i.will2
Nov 14th, 2012, 07:54 PM
Venus wins this even on clay. She wouldn't steamroll Kim but she'd win and pretty consistently. Peak Venus is tough to beat any surface and everyone knows it. She will probably be the one of the HOF inductees who people may feel underachieved by the time she is up for induction. I say this because of her 4 straight slam losses to her sister, the missed opportunities at Roland Garros and Australia will likely haunt her fans when she hangs it up because she has/had the game to win the career slam not sure how open that door is anymore though. Clijsters beat Venus when the auto-immune disease had taken noticeable toll on her fitness. The USO 2005 and 2010 matches stick out the most, Venus from 00-03 wins those contests likely in straight sets but she didn't have enough in the tank to put Kim away. Love Clijsters but Venus to me is a level ahead of Kim at her peak.

Stonerpova
Nov 14th, 2012, 07:55 PM
Venus. She'd destroy Kim's serve, smother her by coming forward, and get all of Kim's less powerful shots back. It'd be closer on hardcourt or on clay, but Venus would slay on grass.

Sammo
Nov 14th, 2012, 07:57 PM
Venus in 2 very easy sets on grass, in 2 more or less difficult sets on hardcourt, and Kim in 3 on clay

Queen_Vee_92
Nov 14th, 2012, 08:17 PM
Venus in 2 comfortable sets on grass.
Venus in 2 difficult sets on hard or a comfortable 3rd set.
Kim in 3 on clay.

Venus at her best is better at everything than Kim bar retrieving imo. Venus' mental peak is also often overlooked and is better than Kim's who was mentally strong only in a much weaker era. Their matches would always be entertaining because they're both such good players,with such athletically impressive games when on.

But without wanting to disrespect Kim who deserved all her success, i believe the reversal of her h2h with Venus was a lot more to do with a decline in Venus' health and consistency rather than Kim becoming the better overall player.

LightWarrior
Nov 14th, 2012, 08:59 PM
May I remind people that Kim leads Venus 7/6 in their h2h ?
Sure Venus is the better player but is a good matchup for Kim.

Wilson_07
Nov 14th, 2012, 09:06 PM
That pic of Kimmy made me horny (srs). Another thing that puts her above Venus is stretching:

http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2011/01/29/1225996/740120-kim-major.jpg

Imagine how well it translates in bed :yeah:

Learn the facts:

http://www.wtnphotos.com/data/505/65d4ead0.jpg

danieln1
Nov 14th, 2012, 10:20 PM
No one was able to touch Venus at her peak in 2000-2001, it was just impossible to play her, with all the power and defense and her constant coming to the net to deliver the swing volley.

TPlaya8
Nov 14th, 2012, 10:35 PM
May I remind people that Kim leads Venus 7/6 in their h2h ?
Sure Venus is the better player but is a good matchup for Kim.

Yea you are right about the H2H in fact Kim won 5 straight but I don't think it was a comfortable match up still because Venus had her chances in all 5 of those matches except Stanford '05 and Miami '10.

even though I am not trying to make excuses but physically Venus was not in good conditions in any of those matches.

2005 stanford Venus was exhausted and rightfully so after that epic wimbledon win and even the 3 set match she had to come back against Patty the day before.

2005 US Open Venus had been out with the flu after the Stanford match and you could clearly see she was in no shape in that 3rd set *Those first 2 sets were two of the most physical sets of tennis I had ever seen in the women's game* But stilll I credit that loss to mental she should have closed it out after being up a set and 4-2.

2009 US Open Venus had been wrapped up since Miami and that was one of her worst summer campaigns ever in her career but still i think this match also was a mental lost!

2010 Miami I really believe that was a Sjogrens day just like the match against Jankovic in Rome. they were just total off days. but she also was wrapped up like a zombie here too.

2010 US Open even though physically she was not in the best of shape *I think this was the beginning of Venus' biggest size on a tennis court in terms of weight. Venus was really thick for her usually body size from 2010 US Open all the way through 2011.* This loss also was more mental lapse when she was in position to win then being unable to hang physically!

Thats why in terms of peak I say Venus because mentally 2000-2003 Venus would not have these lapses while trying to win, and if she did physically she would have been able to keep up. We all now a physically fit Venus can run for days just like Kim *2005 Wimbledon and heck look at her movement in her 2010 loss to Li Na!

dybbuk
Nov 14th, 2012, 10:42 PM
May I remind people that Kim leads Venus 7/6 in their h2h ?
Sure Venus is the better player but is a good matchup for Kim.

Anemic Penus is a good matchup for almost anyone. Peak 2000/2001 Penus would slay Peak Kim from any year Clijster's fans want to try with. I can't stand Penus, but this is the truth. The WS and Henin at their bests are far better than anyone else from their generation or later, and anyone who says otherwise is deluding themselves.

atominside
Nov 15th, 2012, 01:11 AM
Yea you are right about the H2H in fact Kim won 5 straight but I don't think it was a comfortable match up still because Venus had her chances in all 5 of those matches except Stanford '05 and Miami '10.

even though I am not trying to make excuses but physically Venus was not in good conditions in any of those matches.

2005 stanford Venus was exhausted and rightfully so after that epic wimbledon win and even the 3 set match she had to come back against Patty the day before.

2005 US Open Venus had been out with the flu after the Stanford match and you could clearly see she was in no shape in that 3rd set *Those first 2 sets were two of the most physical sets of tennis I had ever seen in the women's game* But stilll I credit that loss to mental she should have closed it out after being up a set and 4-2.

2009 US Open Venus had been wrapped up since Miami and that was one of her worst summer campaigns ever in her career but still i think this match also was a mental lost!

2010 Miami I really believe that was a Sjogrens day just like the match against Jankovic in Rome. they were just total off days. but she also was wrapped up like a zombie here too.

2010 US Open even though physically she was not in the best of shape *I think this was the beginning of Venus' biggest size on a tennis court in terms of weight. Venus was really thick for her usually body size from 2010 US Open all the way through 2011.* This loss also was more mental lapse when she was in position to win then being unable to hang physically!

Thats why in terms of peak I say Venus because mentally 2000-2003 Venus would not have these lapses while trying to win, and if she did physically she would have been able to keep up. We all now a physically fit Venus can run for days just like Kim *2005 Wimbledon and heck look at her movement in her 2010 loss to Li Na!
:lol::help:

Trey
Nov 15th, 2012, 03:47 AM
Venus

Geisha
Nov 15th, 2012, 12:54 PM
Yea you are right about the H2H in fact Kim won 5 straight but I don't think it was a comfortable match up still because Venus had her chances in all 5 of those matches except Stanford '05 and Miami '10.

even though I am not trying to make excuses but physically Venus was not in good conditions in any of those matches.

2005 stanford Venus was exhausted and rightfully so after that epic wimbledon win and even the 3 set match she had to come back against Patty the day before.

2005 US Open Venus had been out with the flu after the Stanford match and you could clearly see she was in no shape in that 3rd set *Those first 2 sets were two of the most physical sets of tennis I had ever seen in the women's game* But stilll I credit that loss to mental she should have closed it out after being up a set and 4-2.

2009 US Open Venus had been wrapped up since Miami and that was one of her worst summer campaigns ever in her career but still i think this match also was a mental lost!

2010 Miami I really believe that was a Sjogrens day just like the match against Jankovic in Rome. they were just total off days. but she also was wrapped up like a zombie here too.

2010 US Open even though physically she was not in the best of shape *I think this was the beginning of Venus' biggest size on a tennis court in terms of weight. Venus was really thick for her usually body size from 2010 US Open all the way through 2011.* This loss also was more mental lapse when she was in position to win then being unable to hang physically!

Thats why in terms of peak I say Venus because mentally 2000-2003 Venus would not have these lapses while trying to win, and if she did physically she would have been able to keep up. We all now a physically fit Venus can run for days just like Kim *2005 Wimbledon and heck look at her movement in her 2010 loss to Li Na!

LOL. I understand having an excuse for one or two matches, but you've compiled a grand list that spans five years. Venus had ample time to be prepared or fit for at least a couple of these meetings. The only one I wouldn't take all that seriously would be 2005 Stanford.

Harry.
Nov 15th, 2012, 12:56 PM
Peak Clijsters is so overrated :rolleyes: She'd probably win on clay and Venus would definitely win on grass. On a hard court, it'd be close I'd think, but I'd give the edge to Peak Venus.

Mr.Sharapova
Nov 15th, 2012, 01:02 PM
Peak Kim in my opinion. These two were close to their peak in their USO 2005 encounter and Kim won so I think an encounter between these two would end up with a victory for Kim except on grass.

FleetSeb
Nov 15th, 2012, 01:15 PM
I actually think peak Kim is nigh unbeatable. But she's pretty much never sustained peak form for more than a set.

TPlaya8
Nov 15th, 2012, 02:15 PM
LOL. I understand having an excuse for one or two matches, but you've compiled a grand list that spans five years. Venus had ample time to be prepared or fit for at least a couple of these meetings. The only one I wouldn't take all that seriously would be 2005 Stanford.

LoL I know but in all honesty I do feel like they played at the most inopportune times for Venus.And great times for Kim. Like i said '05 and the '10 US Open matches were Venus' fault mentally because she should have closed them out. Kim was always stronger in those 3rd sets. '09 Kim was really probably the best from her I had seen, she was fearless in her comeback and to beat Venus and Serena I have nothing but props for her in that win even though it made me mad!

Pie800
Nov 15th, 2012, 02:37 PM
I think it's largely dependent on surface. Peak Clijsters on clay and hard would top Venus I reckon (considerably on clay, closer on hard courts). Grass is a no brainer. Very surprised at how one-sided this poll is.

bandabou
Nov 15th, 2012, 02:41 PM
Tough match-up for sure...the best two defenders in recent era. I think peak Vee has just that little bit more power and better serve to eek it out most often than not. On grass it's no-contest. On clay, Kim probably wins.

On HC?! Now THAT's a match-up.

GoofyDuck
Nov 15th, 2012, 02:43 PM
Venus will hit Clijsters off the court.

VeeJJ
Nov 15th, 2012, 02:46 PM
People keep saying Venus will loose on clay for some reason like its a bad surface for here. Venus is a beast on clay ya'll especially peak Venus. She has the second most clay titles but good clay titles next to AMG's MMs. So yeah.

Critique
Nov 15th, 2012, 04:31 PM
People keep saying Venus will loose on clay for some reason like its a bad surface for here. Venus is a beast on clay ya'll especially peak Venus. She has the second most clay titles but good clay titles next to AMG's MMs. So yeah.

True. Peak Venus is underrated on clay because of her disappointing showings at RG. Even this year a way past her prime Venus with Sjogren's held her own and gave one of the better matches to Maria on red clay (the most dominant red clay courter this year).

Si_Hi
Nov 15th, 2012, 04:49 PM
Venus 6-2 6-4 routines Kim on grass while Kim wins in two difficult sets on clay
A three setter that could go either way on hard.

Olórin
Nov 15th, 2012, 06:03 PM
Venus on every single surface. Kim is formidable for any player, but when Venus is in her mental and physical groove...we've seen what happens.

dragonflies
Nov 15th, 2012, 06:28 PM
If you compare Peak vs Peak, then Venus can easily come out on top. From their long careers, players all have up and down, but at the end of the day, people are as good as what they have achieved. Venus maintained her peak more at the top, so she has almost twice of Slams comparing to Kim, despite having the misfortune to compete with peak Serena while she was at her peak.


To break it down: If they were about to play 10 matches on each surface.



At the AO, peak Kim 04, 10 would beat peak Venus 99-03 by a small margin. Venus' groundstrokes always looked awkward on a slow hard court. Kim - Venus 6-4.



FO: Kim never liked clay much and she lost to Davenport and a bunch of other lesser players on clay, her "clay hating" attitude lead her to a less than stellar record on clay. Venus has better clay record and titles and moved exceptionally good at her best. Both have best results as a finals, so as their respected peaks, Venus will edge Kim on clay. Venus- Kim 6-4.



Wimbledon: on grass, there is no debate. 5 Wimbys compare to no finals, even an injured Venus would still slay Kim. Venus -Kim; 9-1 ( it should be 10-0, but 9-1 is also fair considering what might have happened in an actual match ,).



USO: It's tight and can go either way. Venus peak in 00-03 would be competitive with Kim peak 05, 09. so it's really should be 5-5. Venus started to be affected by autoimmune illness in the later half of 00s, so while she should win in 2, she always lose when Kim drag the matches to 3 due to health problems. Although this is a debate about peak vs peak, yet we have to take some of the reality into consideration, so Kim - Venus 6-4.


Overall, On all surfaces, Venus - Kim : 23-17.

forehand27
Nov 15th, 2012, 06:30 PM
First off no doubt whatsoever peak Venus is overall the better player. However when talking about the matchup I was tempted to pick Kim since it is clear Kim is a bad matchup for Venus. However then I stopped myself and thought to what the best example of them meeting peak on peak would be. I would actually say that would be 2003. Venus and her best tennis was 2000-2003 until her injury. Kim was 2003, 2005, and late 2009-early 2011. Venus won all her matches with Kim in 2003. I would say the matchup with Kim is such that 70% Kim would regularly beat 70% Venus in 3 sets, and that we have seen many many times, but absolute peak playing Venus would still be too much for peak Kim.

forehand27
Nov 15th, 2012, 06:38 PM
I also dont understand the certainty of posters Kim would win on clay. This is KIM CLIJSTERS on clay we are talking about here, not Justine Henin people. Kim is not some clay court guru, and Venus was a really good clay courter most of the time from 1999-2004. Venus is actually probably the slightly better clay courter, even though Kims Roland Garros record is better. Had Kim won that 2001 Roland Garros final one could say she is the better clay courter but she didnt. I can see the thinking in the sense their actual abilities as players are probably close on clay, unlike say grass, and with the matchup elements, that gives Kim a good chance, but even so it wouldnt be easy. I believe they only played once on clay in 2002 when Venus was at her peak and Kim was not, and Kim did win in 3 sets, and that was at a time Venus owned Kim on all other courts, but one match is not enough to draw a conclusion on. Anyway Venus won the first set of that match 6-1, which makes it seem like it was a match she should have won.

Miss Atomic Bomb
Nov 15th, 2012, 06:45 PM
Kim wasn't a bad match for Venus till she had her wrist surgery. After that, Venus started hitting her bh cc all the fucking time, which slotted nicely into Kimberley's biggest weapon.

Till the wrist surgery, Venus could easily pull the bh dtl trigger - kind of similar to what she used to do with Capriati.

Peak Venus wins on all surfaces except slow hc where its pretty much a toss up.

charmedRic
Nov 15th, 2012, 06:52 PM
While Peak Clijsters would be a backboard with bite unlike anything ever seen by nature, I would think that Peak Venus' weight behind the ball would would eventually grind down whatever Clijsters could throw at her.

Peak Venus.

forehand27
Nov 15th, 2012, 07:23 PM
I think alot of you forget how great peak Venus was. Before Serena in 2002, some though Venus of the summers of 2000 and 2001 played the best ever tennis by a women on both grass and hard courts, yes there were people who felt that at the time. Her defense was insane, maybe the best ever, and she combined it with one of the all time great all court attacks too. Even on clay Venus at her peak has beaten Pierce, a great clay courter, in her prime in tier 1 clay finals by scores like 6-3, 6-0 and 6-4, 6-2, and beaten the likes of Henin and Hingis in or near their primes in tournament finals on clay. Clijsters hasnt done things like that on the surface, she pushed Capriati who is basically a poor womens version of prime Clijsters (which she was not in yet) in a Roland Garros final, and beat a badly choking Henin in a Roland Garros semis back when Justine was an even bigger choker vs Kim than Kim would later become vs Justine, and won tournament finals on clay over prime Venus and Mauresmo in 3 sets, and that is it for big performances on clay.

n1_and_uh_noone
Nov 15th, 2012, 07:29 PM
In a 1 set match, Venus. Any longer than that and we've seen what happened in the past. So Clijsters in tight 2 or 3, going away in the 3rd.

thrust
Nov 15th, 2012, 09:44 PM
When did Venus get this disease that is the excuse for all her losses after 05? I only heard of it about 2 years ago. Kim was several years younger than Venus, so was at a disadvantage from 00-04. Grass-Venus, clay-Kim, hard-equal.