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DevilishAttitude
Nov 12th, 2012, 06:45 PM
2012 was perhaps the best year of the WTA for quite some time and I thought it would be good to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of the Top 10. Do these players have subtle strengths which make them the best or do they have less weaknesses than those below them?

Here's my thoughts:

#1 Victoria Azarenka
Strengths:
- Currently the best returner in the game, always looks to be aggressive and probably is at her most dangerous when her returns are working.
- Excellent neturaliser of the point. She may not hit a huge amount of winners but is excellent at controlling the point with a series of well-timed, clean, flatly hit shots before eventually finding an opening to attack.
- Shots very rarely break down and gets excellent depth, which means it's harder to attack as she can push players back.

Weaknesses:
- Serve is ineffective for a #1. Generates little pace off it and it is to start the point more than anything else. Second serve can also break down and will throw multiple DF's if it's completely off.
- Doesn't move that well to her FH side, although she has improved that in recent months.
- If hard-hitters are at their best then they can hit through her defense, and she doesn't have the weaponary to match them. If the match isn't on her terms then she's in trouble.

#2 Maria Sharapova
Strengths:
- Probably the strongest mentally out of all the players. Her mental stamina and endurance allow her to win matches even if she's playing badly, as it allows her to keep in control and her opponents won't be able to keep their levels above hers.
- Big hitter and when on can hit through anyone.
- First and second serves are always aggressive and when working allow her to be aggressive straight away and put pressure on opponents.

Weaknesses:
- When serve is off it will break down with alarming results. Throws in too many DF's.
- Inconsistency off the ground mean she can get dragged into marathons when she really should be winning easily. If Plan A isn't working she has nothing else to go to.
- Lack of general feel means if she's rushed she has no option but to play low percentage tennis, with little success. Both Azarenka and Williams expose this time and time again against her.

#3 Serena Williams
Strengths:
- Her serve is currently THE shot on the WTA. It can carry her through matches when her ground game is AWOL, as she can simply serve her way through opponents.
- One of the very few players whose defense is as good as her offense. Means she can be almost unplayable when her game is on.
- Believes she's the number 1 at all times and can have won matches even before a ball has been hit, simply due to the fact players don't believe they can beat her.

Weaknesses:
- Can be very up and down mentally. If things aren't going her way then she can go into complete meltdown. Opponents can get inside her head and cause her to doubt her ability.
- Footwork can be lazy and mean her ground-game can look extremely awkward and messy if she's not moving well.
- Motivation can be questionable in minor matches.

#4 Agnieszka Radwanska
Strengths:
- One of the very few players who can say they are an all-court player. Excellent touch and feel means if she gets matches on her terms that she can spin a web against opponents.
- Excellent movement and anticipation skills mean she can get a huge number of balls back and force her opponents to go for too much and make too many errors.
- Can rely on more than just a Plan A if things aren't going her way and stays solid mentally the vast majority of the time.

Weaknesses:
- Doesn't generate any real pace which means she struggles to hit through opponents.
- Second serve is one of the worst shots in the Top 10.
- If players are playing their best she can struggle to make any real impact as doesn't have the weapons to counter-act them.

#5 Angelique Kerber
Strengths:
- One of the best on tour at turning defense into offense. Is aggressive in defense which allows her to at times turn a rally onto her terms with just one shot. Can make her opponents feel that they can't hit through her.
- To back up last point, she's also one of the best movers around.
- Can hit winners off both sides despite being smaller than the average player.

Weaknesses:
- If opponents don't give her any pace, she finds it very difficult to make her own, and doesn't have the required patience if her matches turn into wars of attrition.
- Serve isn't a weapon and second serve can be attacked.
- Can check out of matches if things aren't going her way.

#6 Sara Errani
Strengths:
- One of the very few players these days who understand how to play on clay. Spin she generates on FH means she can make her matches very physical despite being smaller and lighter than most of her opponents.
- Excellent touch and feel, drop shots are some of the best on tour.
- Moves well.

Weaknesses:
- Next to no serve which means both first and second serve can be attacked with ease.
- Doesn't have any answers if hard-hitters are playing well as she doesn't have the weapons to counter-act with.
- Needs a slow court for her game to be effective.

#7 Li Na
Strengths:
- Probably the best player currently at being able to change direction aggressively. Also one of the few players who can combine power with width, which means her ball is always going away from the opponent.
- Her power can allow her to hit through majority of opponents.
- Moves well and is an athletic player.

Weaknesses:
- Very inconsistent. Can throw away matches by simply being unable to get the ball in court and another player who if Plan A isn't working as nothing to fall back on.
- Weak mentally which means she can lose concentration and spend her time shouting at her husband rather than focusing on the match.
- Poor returner.

#8 Petra Kvitova
Strengths:
- The biggest hitter on tour currently. If her ground game is on then she can be almost unplayable.
- One of the very few players who can mix power with variety. Slice and volleys when working mean she has a dimension to her game that most of the opponents don't have.
- Very difficult to stop when she's on a roll.

Weaknesses:
- Never looks in the best shape, which mean her movement, which isn't the strongest part of her game anyway, is compromised further.
- When game is off she is another player who looks as if she has more chance of hitting the stands than hitting the court.
- Needs conditions to be in her favour for her to play her best, as she struggles physically in hot, humid and slow conditions.

#9 Samantha Stosur
Strengths:
- Her game is about massive topspin, rather than power, which means she can be a very difficult proposition for her opponents who have to face a style that is rare on the WTA.
- Kick serve is the best on the WTA and again gives her opponents a look at something that they just aren't used to.
- Defensive BH slice is good and BH down-the-line when working can be dangerous.

Weaknesses:
- BH might be dangerous when working but most of the time it is one of the weakest shots in the Top 10. Can be attacked and will breakdown the vast majority of the time.
- Will shank and mishit her FH if her timing is off.
- Against the tall big-hitters, her serve moves from being a huge weapon to liability, as she rarely does anything with it other than kick it up, which goes to their strike-zone.

#10 Caroline Wozniacki
Strengths:
- One of the most consistent players out there and defensive skills allow her to get balls back that most others wouldn't be able to get too.
- In superb physical condition, she wins the vast majority of attritional matches as she can grind her opponents down physically.
- Solid mentally.

Weaknesses:
- Doesn't generate enough power overall and means she struggles to hit through opponents. It also means she has nowhere to go if hard-hitters are playing well, they can simply hit through her as her ball doesn't really go anywhere.
- FH is ineffective and will break down if pressured.
- Next to no feel in her game.

Thoughts? :)

bandabou
Nov 12th, 2012, 07:09 PM
Sharapova the toughest mentally?! :confused:

gbenga
Nov 12th, 2012, 07:20 PM
#3 Serena Williams

Weaknesses:
- Can be very up and down mentally. If things aren't going her way then she can go into complete meltdown. Opponents can get inside her head and cause her to doubt her ability.


This narrative is wrong. In 2012, Serena is 58-4. Of her 4 losses only one was due to mental break down.

MrProdigy555
Nov 12th, 2012, 07:37 PM
Yeah, opponents don't mentally affect Serena. o.O

Joe.
Nov 12th, 2012, 08:00 PM
This narrative is wrong. In 2012, Serena is 58-4. Of her 4 losses only one was due to mental break down.

I would say that her 3 losses to Makarova, Wozniacki and Razzano were all due to either mentality/motivation issues...

Stonerpova
Nov 12th, 2012, 08:09 PM
Mine:

Victoria Azarenka
Strengths:
-The exceptional depth on her groundstrokes and her ability to create angles allows her to neutralize her opponents’ power until she can get a short ball to pounce on.
-Anticipates extremely well
-Terrific and consistent returner of serve
Weaknesses:
-Weak serve
-She doesn’t have the weaponry of some of her contemporaries, and she can be hit off the court by a power player on their game
-Forehand can break down

Maria Sharapova
Strengths:
-Hits the ball huge and with relentless precision
-When she connects on her returns, look out
-Fights like hell to the very last point
Weaknesses:
-Serena Williams
-Can be a bit predictable off the serve
-Can’t volley to save her life

Serena Williams
Strengths:
-Greatest serve in women’s tennis history
-Hits huge off the ground, moves extremely well, terrific volleyer, can play defense, great returner of serve
-When she’s on, she’s essentially unplayable
Weaknesses:
-Can put too much pressure on herself
-Can be a bit of a slow starter
-Her footwork can go off at times

Aggie Radwanska
Strengths:
-The rare WTA player that possesses some variety
-She’s a terrific defensive player
-Can go games without missing
Weaknesses:
-Poor second serve
-She struggles when she has to generate her own pace
-Her groundstrokes sit up on slower courts, giving her opponents time to tee off

Angelique Kerber
Strengths:
-Extremely fit and a terrific mover
-Can produce some incredible shots on the run
-Terrific competitor
Weaknesses:
-Also struggles to create her own pace
-Her serve could use some work
-Despite her competitive strengths she has gone away in some big matches

Sara Errani
Strengths:
-Like Kerber, she’s extremely fit and has clearly put in the hard yards off the court
-Competes so well
-She’s extremely consistent off the ground and has great depth
Weaknesses:
-Lacks power
-Faster courts dull her heavy topspin
-Serve is crap

Li Na
Strengths:
-When she’s on her game she has every shot in the book
-Has a lot of width on her groundstrokes
-Moves extremely well
Weaknesses:
-Maddeningly inconsistent, both mentally and in her tennis
-Seems to get too satisfied by a good run
-No plan B

Petra Kvitova
Strengths:
-On her day she can hit literally anyone off the court (save Serena)
-Has a great deal of variety
-She is a very naturally gifted ball-striker and hits the ball great on the run
Weaknesses:
-Fitness
-Streaky in basically every department of her game
-Very uneven mentally

Samantha Stosur
Strengths:
-The serve and forehand combo can be menacing
-She’s not the great volleyer the media makes her out to be but she’s still pretty good in that department
-Extremely fit
Weaknesses:
-Doesn’t have that explosive first step
-Falters in pressure situations
-Backhand can be a mess

Caroline Wozniacki
Strengths:
-Extremely consistent off the ground, can basically rally players to death
-Excellent backhand
-Mental stamina
Weaknesses:
-Her father
-Her forehand
-Her serve has deteriorated

lenas warriors
Nov 12th, 2012, 08:20 PM
Great list. Very reasoned. Weaknesses of stosur and laborz had me in hysterics- bluntly put and are glaring when laid out like that!

Someone should do an 11-20 list :)

Geekking
Nov 12th, 2012, 08:46 PM
Sam Stosur:

Weakness: She needs bouncing courts!

lenas warriors
Nov 12th, 2012, 08:51 PM
1. Vika
+ deep groundstrokes
+ standing on the baseline taking the early ball (taking time away from her opponents)
+ excellent returns
+ been very mentally tough hanging in matches
- serve (was fine til indian wells but has been ropey since shoulder problems during the clay swing)
- running to her forehand
- clay

2. Maria
+ her returns
+ laser groundstrokes
+ her serve to the deuce side
+ resilience and mental toughness (against all bar a few)
- her serve to the ad side
- is prone to making a batch of UFE
- volleys

3. Serena
+ her serve
+ great defense and attach
+ returns
+ movement
- forehand can breakdown though has been tighter in 2012
- lazy footwork at times
- doesnt always play great against scrubs

4. Aga
+ great tennis mind
+ has lots of shots at her disposal
+ great defense
+ great movement
- still a bit powderpuff so is prone to being hit off the court/matches arent always in her hands
- Czechs
- second serve :help:

5. Angie
+ great defense and ability to turn defense into attack
+ great movement
+ has the game to challenge the big hitters
- serve
- mental checkouts
- doesnt have the best game to challenge the softer hitters

6. Errani
+ had a great off season preparing her body
+ had a great off season preparing her grunting
+ strategy
- serve
- groundstrokes
- being hit off court by players on their game

7. Li
+ groundstrokes
+ athleticism
+ serve can be great
- netplay :help:
- mental checkouts
- serve can be ropey

8. Petra
+ At her best i think can she beat anyone
+ great groundstrokes
+ good variety
- needs better fitness and prepare her body for the grind
- not always great matchplay (e.g. losing the big points)
- movement

9. Sammy
+ Forehand
+ Serve
+ has a nice collection of short tennis playing bitches/punchbags
- netplay :help:
- being tough on herself
- shanking the ball
- backhand
- doesnt have a plan B
- is collected by a number of flat hitting bitches as a punchbag

10. Caro
+ vulturing
+ her backhand
+ making players hit one more ball
- her dad
- her forehand
- her serve
- her netplay :help:

Cajka
Nov 12th, 2012, 08:54 PM
OP and Griffin both made great lists, I'd like to add few things.

1. I don't think that Serena lets opponents get inside her head, my impression is that sometimes some bad misses get inside her head (rather than opponents) which was mostly visible in the first part of the season when she simply couldn't win ugly.

2. I don't think that Sharapova is the strongest mentally, Vika and Serena are stronger mentally.

3. Errani's return and mental fortitude are seriously underrated. I'd like to add it to list of her strengths.

4. Azarenka has a great touch, good volleys and drop shots.

Stonerpova
Nov 12th, 2012, 10:04 PM
Oh and add "unrelenting will to win" to my list of Serena's strengths :lol:

Coconut91
Nov 12th, 2012, 10:27 PM
7. Li
+ groundstrokes
+ athleticism
+ serve can be great
- netplay :help:
- mental checkouts
- serve can be ropey


Good you mention Na's serve. I feel it's always overlooked. Of course it's inconsistent, but her whole game is, so. :lol:

- Petra's serve deserves some credit. It's definitely one of her assets. Her return of serve can be awful though, hence the poor break point conversions.

- Vika is underrated in the touch department IMO. It's a pity she doesn't always use her tools, because it's a joy to wath when she does. Serve is clearly the main drawback on her game.

- About Radwanska, I just want to say that I love it when she goes to the net, successful or not. Pity she doesn't have better approach shots. Her movement is great too, not the fastest or most explosive mover, but a very smart and efficient one.

dsanders06
Nov 12th, 2012, 10:30 PM
Strengths in Green, Negatives in Red

AZARENKA
-This will sound weird, but I actually think the biggest key to her success is great "wrist-work" -- she is able to flick back ANY shots no matter how hard you hit them if they're within her reach (which isn't something you can say about Wozniacki, despite being a better defender than Aza overall), and for the same reason is also effortlessly able to redirect balls despite her lack of firepower.
-Excellent footwork and instincts of how to position herself and when to move forward, etc.
-Excellent focus, mental strength and poise under pressure

-Can be rather impotent against big hitters who are willing to use the full width of the court (e.g. Serena, Maria when she plays a good match, Li when not in brainfart mode), as her raw footspeed is not good enough to defend like crazy (a la Wozniacki/Radwanska) if she's being run side to side from one corner to the other, nor does she get chances to play offense against these players
-Serve, obviously


SHARAPOVA
-Best backhand on the WTA
-Weight of shot (though not necessarily raw pace of shot)
-Fighting spirit

-Despite being quicker sprinting from A to B than she's given credit for, she is still very bad at changing directions, meaning she remains a poor defensive player by the standards of the top 10.
-Footwork can at times be iffy, which is more fatal for her than other ballbashers because she doesn't have the kind of natural timing or raw pace that she can get away with it if she's not in exactly the right position
-Post-surgery, can be flakey in pressure situations.


SERENA
-Serve, serve, serve
-Excellent at creating angles and opening up the court with her forehand
-Mental strength, obvs

-Footwork can be comically awful at times, including in virtually every match on red clay since 2003
-Backhand, despite being her stronger wing at her peak, has been strangely going downhill in recent years, both in terms of potency and reliability


RADWANSKA
-Excellent anticipation
-Mixes up the placement of her defensive shots well, which can expose her opponents if their reaction times or footwork are off
-Occasionally capable of dictating play (to some extent) with her forehand by taking it on the rise

-Very poor weight of shot means she can often groove her opponent, even if they started the match out of form
-Poor upper-body strength makes her oddly inept at dealing with topspin.


KERBER
-Probably the best raw footspeed of anyone in the top 20 atm
-Forehand is very hard to read with it's super-snappy takeback
-Excellent competitor

-Technically-flawed groundstrokes mean she's generally incapable of being the aggressor in matches without collapsing in a mound of unforced errors
-Serve


ERRANI
-Excellent point construction
-Best net-player in the top 20
-Very good competitor

-Even though her will is never lacking, any top 30 big-hitter can take the match out of her hands, seeing as she needs lots of time for her offensive game to be effective, and she is not one of the top defensive players (away from clay atleast) either
-Serve....blabla.


LI
-Excellent raw footspeed
-Good at absorbing and redirecting pace and, as others have said, uses the width of the court very well
-Backhand is very effective finishing shot, despite not being heavy she hits it clean as a whistle and generally gets great length on it, as well as being reasonably reliable

-Her potentially great defensive abilities are unrealised due to her often poor footwork and court sense
-Forehand is a technically poor shot - OK-ish as a defensive shot, but technically incapable of holding up if she's trying to play out-and-out first-strike tennis with it, unless she puts GOBS of topspin on it (thus limiting the potency of said first strike)


KVITOVA
-Forehand among the most explosive shots in the history of the women's game
-Serve; even when she throws in a high-% first serve, it's still usually very effective due to the lefty spin, which makes it perhaps the most reliable serve at crunch times other than Serena's
-Contrary to popular belief, is comfortable in the spotlight and generally steps it up in big matches (as shown by how much stronger her Slam results were this year than her WTA results).

-Footwork very cumbersome
-Return, while deadly on the rare occasions she connects, misfires more often than not -- whether this is because of bad footwork or because she lacks the fundamental athletic dexterity to be a good returner, I don't know

MrProdigy555
Nov 13th, 2012, 06:14 PM
I would say that her 3 losses to Makarova, Wozniacki and Razzano were all due to either mentality/motivation issues...
Makarova- Was "tree-ing" and Serena was incapable of playing the style of tennis she's accustomed to (because of the foot injury).

Wozniacki-Serena expected her to be a scrub, but Wozniacki actually showed up and it surprised Serena. Not a mental breakdown.

Kerber-Tired

Razzanno-Mental collapse.

*and in this day and age I don't think Serena struggles with motivation. She has records she's chasing and I believe she wants to win...everything. :shrug:

Mary Cherry.
Nov 13th, 2012, 06:19 PM
Sharapova

Weakness: Often bends over for her superiors in finals.
Strength: Often bends over for her superiors in finals.

doomsday
Nov 13th, 2012, 06:31 PM
Sharapova

Weakness: Often bends over for her superiors in finals.
Strength: Often bends over for her superiors in finals.

You love Maria fans, don't you?:lol:

The Dawntreader
Nov 13th, 2012, 06:35 PM
Sharapova

Weakness: Often bends over for her superiors in finals.
Strength: Often bends over for her superiors in finals.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdaurszrWo1rzel2j.gif

Mary Cherry.
Nov 13th, 2012, 07:04 PM
You love Maria fans, don't you?:lol:

With every fibre of my being.

DevilishAttitude
Nov 13th, 2012, 07:36 PM
Sharapova the toughest mentally?! :confused:

I know this is not something many will agree with, but I do believe Maria is the best mentally. She wins SO many matches, against the best and lesser players, by simply keeping calm and believing in herself. She takes it one point at a time, which means she doesn't allow bad feeling or nerves to take over for a whole set of points. Her opponents will generally always falter mentally before she does, as they don't have her mental stamina or fortitude.

Sure, her record against Azarenka and Serena has been poor this year, but I feel it's more down to them being bad match-ups for her rather than any mental fraility. The only match where she slightly lost it mentally was at the end of the US SF, but apart from that, she's lost to them due to their ability at exploiting her weaknesses better than anyone else, not due to lack of belief or mental issues.


OP and Griffin both made great lists, I'd like to add few things.

1. I don't think that Serena lets opponents get inside her head, my impression is that sometimes some bad misses get inside her head (rather than opponents) which was mostly visible in the first part of the season when she simply couldn't win ugly.

2. I don't think that Sharapova is the strongest mentally, Vika and Serena are stronger mentally.

3. Errani's return and mental fortitude are seriously underrated. I'd like to add it to list of her strengths.

4. Azarenka has a great touch, good volleys and drop shots.

I somewhat agree with number 1, although I do believe opponents can get inside her head. Razzano was a prime example. She kept the pressure up against Serena the entire match, and didn't falter. When Serena made that fatal decision to stop the point when she was winning the tiebreak, she completely crumpled and Razzano took full advantage. People forget how badly Serena imploded in that match due to the final game.

It's a combination of putting too much pressure on herself and opponents getting inside her head in the end. Zheng did a fantastic job of that at Wimbledon, she won a huge majority of the rallies cos Serena's ground-game was so off she couldn't handle Zheng's early flat hitting and led to her freezing whenever she had any opportunity. Only her serve saved her that day. The US final also showed how when it's not going well for Serena that she spends so much time having to keep calm that it can have a real negative impact on her play, cos she loses focus and rhythm.

It's making her feel uncomfortable though that is the hard bit, that's why it's so shocking when Serena does fray, cos most of the time she's so in control of her matches there is nothing for her to get stressed about.

BTW, I agree with your point about Azarenka, she does have great touch, I think she should move forward more, she's more than capable. She has excellent court-sense as well, and it's an area of her game that she doesn't get enough praise about.

BuTtErFrEnA
Nov 13th, 2012, 07:43 PM
martha being the toughest mentally :happy: stopped reading after that

bandabou
Nov 13th, 2012, 09:04 PM
I know this is not something many will agree with, but I do believe Maria is the best mentally. She wins SO many matches, against the best and lesser players, by simply keeping calm and believing in herself. She takes it one point at a time, which means she doesn't allow bad feeling or nerves to take over for a whole set of points. Her opponents will generally always falter mentally before she does, as they don't have her mental stamina or fortitude.

Sure, her record against Azarenka and Serena has been poor this year, but I feel it's more down to them being bad match-ups for her rather than any mental fraility. The only match where she slightly lost it mentally was at the end of the US SF, but apart from that, she's lost to them due to their ability at exploiting her weaknesses better than anyone else, not due to lack of belief or mental issues.

It's exactly because she CAN'T bring it against the TOP TOP players, that's why I can't take of her mentally tough. She's fighting spirit, intensity...



I somewhat agree with number 1, although I do believe opponents can get inside her head. Razzano was a prime example. She kept the pressure up against Serena the entire match, and didn't falter. When Serena made that fatal decision to stop the point when she was winning the tiebreak, she completely crumpled and Razzano took full advantage. People forget how badly Serena imploded in that match due to the final game.

It's a combination of putting too much pressure on herself and opponents getting inside her head in the end. Zheng did a fantastic job of that at Wimbledon, she won a huge majority of the rallies cos Serena's ground-game was so off she couldn't handle Zheng's early flat hitting and led to her freezing whenever she had any opportunity. Only her serve saved her that day. The US final also showed how when it's not going well for Serena that she spends so much time having to keep calm that it can have a real negative impact on her play, cos she loses focus and rhythm.

It's making her feel uncomfortable though that is the hard bit, that's why it's so shocking when Serena does fray, cos most of the time she's so in control of her matches there is nothing for her to get stressed about.

BTW, I agree with your point about Azarenka, she does have great touch, I think she should move forward more, she's more than capable. She has excellent court-sense as well, and it's an area of her game that she doesn't get enough praise about.

Serena can come and go..but most of the time: when it's crunch time...she's money.

SerenaSlam
Nov 13th, 2012, 09:07 PM
- Can be very up and down mentally. If things aren't going her way then she can go into complete meltdown. Opponents can get inside her head and cause her to doubt her ability.

Is this ^^^^ the joke of the day? Since when does Serena got get to Serena and players get in her head? Lmmfao ROTMFF

NashaP
Nov 13th, 2012, 09:15 PM
Sharapova

Weakness: Often bends over for her superiors in finals.
Strength: Often bends over for her superiors in finals.

:lol: cute

Too bad Vika doesnt bend over as well, she just fake injuries

Aryman3
Nov 13th, 2012, 09:28 PM
Mostly agree
but
-Sharapova is generally overestimated
-no one takes into account great net play of Radwanska. Her anticipation is not as great as you present it. It's rather variety of her shots and intelligent tactics
that give her advantage even over Top 10 players

C. Drone
Nov 13th, 2012, 10:00 PM
It's exactly because she CAN'T bring it against the TOP TOP players, that's why I can't take of her mentally tough. She's fighting spirit, intensity...


bring what? :lol: You are describing like its just mental and she is never beaten in the actual game. I guess Lord is just incredible lucky scoring 9 wins in row against a choker!

Dominic
Nov 13th, 2012, 10:01 PM
Too bad Vika doesnt bend over as well, she just fake injuries

:lol:

Mary Cherry.
Nov 13th, 2012, 10:19 PM
:lol: cute

Too bad Vika doesnt bend over as well then Maria wouldn't have been bageled in the AO final and maybe saved a bit of dignity

:awww:

RVD
Nov 13th, 2012, 10:30 PM
Mine:

Victoria Azarenka
Strengths:
-The exceptional depth on her groundstrokes and her ability to create angles allows her to neutralize her opponents’ power until she can get a short ball to pounce on.
-Anticipates extremely well
-Terrific and consistent returner of serve
Weaknesses:
-Weak serve
-She doesn’t have the weaponry of some of her contemporaries, and she can be hit off the court by a power player on their game
-Forehand can break down

Maria Sharapova
Strengths:
-Hits the ball huge and with relentless precision
-When she connects on her returns, look out
-Fights like hell to the very last point
Weaknesses:
-Serena Williams
-Can be a bit predictable off the serve
-Can’t volley to save her life

Serena Williams
Strengths:
-Greatest serve in women’s tennis history
-Hits huge off the ground, moves extremely well, terrific volleyer, can play defense, great returner of serve
-When she’s on, she’s essentially unplayable
Weaknesses:
-Can put too much pressure on herself
-Can be a bit of a slow starter
-Her footwork can go off at times

Aggie Radwanska
Strengths:
-The rare WTA player that possesses some variety
-She’s a terrific defensive player
-Can go games without missing
Weaknesses:
-Poor second serve
-She struggles when she has to generate her own pace
-Her groundstrokes sit up on slower courts, giving her opponents time to tee off

Angelique Kerber
Strengths:
-Extremely fit and a terrific mover
-Can produce some incredible shots on the run
-Terrific competitor
Weaknesses:
-Also struggles to create her own pace
-Her serve could use some work
-Despite her competitive strengths she has gone away in some big matches

Sara Errani
Strengths:
-Like Kerber, she’s extremely fit and has clearly put in the hard yards off the court
-Competes so well
-She’s extremely consistent off the ground and has great depth
Weaknesses:
-Lacks power
-Faster courts dull her heavy topspin
-Serve is crap

Li Na
Strengths:
-When she’s on her game she has every shot in the book
-Has a lot of width on her groundstrokes
-Moves extremely well
Weaknesses:
-Maddeningly inconsistent, both mentally and in her tennis
-Seems to get too satisfied by a good run
-No plan B

Petra Kvitova
Strengths:
-On her day she can hit literally anyone off the court (save Serena)
-Has a great deal of variety
-She is a very naturally gifted ball-striker and hits the ball great on the run
Weaknesses:
-Fitness
-Streaky in basically every department of her game
-Very uneven mentally

Samantha Stosur
Strengths:
-The serve and forehand combo can be menacing
-She’s not the great volleyer the media makes her out to be but she’s still pretty good in that department
-Extremely fit
Weaknesses:
-Doesn’t have that explosive first step
-Falters in pressure situations
-Backhand can be a mess

Caroline Wozniacki
Strengths:
-Extremely consistent off the ground, can basically rally players to death
-Excellent backhand
-Mental stamina
Weaknesses:
-Her father
-Her forehand
-Her serve has deterioratedOP and Griffin both made great lists, I'd like to add few things.

1. I don't think that Serena lets opponents get inside her head, my impression is that sometimes some bad misses get inside her head (rather than opponents) which was mostly visible in the first part of the season when she simply couldn't win ugly.

2. I don't think that Sharapova is the strongest mentally, Vika and Serena are stronger mentally.

3. Errani's return and mental fortitude are seriously underrated. I'd like to add it to list of her strengths.

4. Azarenka has a great touch, good volleys and drop shots.I find these a great deal more accurate.
Especially Serena's critiques.

I would also add that Serena is more of a 'complete' player/athlete/strategist out on the court than most other WTA players, presently. And that she doesn't get enough credit for her on-court adaptability.
When others are receiving coaching from the stands, Serena is devising her next plan of attack.

moonballnurse
Nov 14th, 2012, 04:03 AM
Wozniacki's weakness is her fivehead.

RVD
Nov 14th, 2012, 04:15 AM
Wozniacki's weakness is her fivehead.:haha: :haha:

bandabou
Nov 14th, 2012, 06:47 AM
bring what? :lol: You are describing like its just mental and she is never beaten in the actual game. I guess Lord is just incredible lucky scoring 9 wins in row against a choker!

Serena obviously is much much better than Masha...but some of the scorelines and specially those Masha has had against Vika is just plain sad, she went away mentally. Unless of course..you think that Vika's the better player than Masha too?! :eek:

C. Drone
Nov 14th, 2012, 03:14 PM
Serena obviously is much much better than Masha...but some of the scorelines and specially those Masha has had against Vika is just plain sad, she went away mentally. Unless of course..you think that Vika's the better player than Masha too?! :eek:

Azarenka had similar losing scorelines even against Maria. And obviously its not an ideal matchup for neither of them, although Azarenka's steadier groundgame simply favours her most of the time.
Their results show small things (technical, physical) can change the whole match.
Game & mental capabilities go hand in hand. Most of the time you cant treat as two completely separated things.
Its BS saying "went away mentally" and then next week you see her winning the match same easy way as she lost previous week.

DevilishAttitude
Nov 14th, 2012, 07:48 PM
I find these a great deal more accurate.
Especially Serena's critiques.

I would also add that Serena is more of a 'complete' player/athlete/strategist out on the court than most other WTA players, presently. And that she doesn't get enough credit for her on-court adaptability.
When others are receiving coaching from the stands, Serena is devising her next plan of attack.

You don't agree with me that her serve is the best in tennis and that her defense is as good as her offense, which makes her almost unplayable?

I don't agree with the view that Serena is more 'complete'. Look at the US final, when her game went off she didn't try anything different. She just kept hitting hard and hoping it would go in. It was due to Azarenka getting tight that she scraped through rather than her changing her game and adapting to the situation.

MrProdigy555
Nov 14th, 2012, 09:14 PM
You don't agree with me that her serve is the best in tennis and that her defense is as good as her offense, which makes her almost unplayable?

I don't agree with the view that Serena is more 'complete'. Look at the US final, when her game went off she didn't try anything different. She just kept hitting hard and hoping it would go in. It was due to Azarenka getting tight that she scraped through rather than her changing her game and adapting to the situation.
So, Azarenka GAVE Serena the US Open title? You are something else. Serena took that title.

RVD
Nov 14th, 2012, 09:45 PM
You don't agree with me that her serve is the best in tennis and that her defense is as good as her offense, which makes her almost unplayable?

I don't agree with the view that Serena is more 'complete'. Look at the US final, when her game went off she didn't try anything different. She just kept hitting hard and hoping it would go in. It was due to Azarenka getting tight that she scraped through rather than her changing her game and adapting to the situation.Naw, I agree with those. :) It's just that the list wasn't quite complete/accurate.
For example Serena's return game vs Azarenka's.

Are you saying that Serena has only an 'A' game?

Actually Serena has employed different plans throughout here career. She may get lazy, as all athletes infrequently do, but she definitely has more than a single plan.
Plus, she has several gears at her disposal.

Personally, Serena didn't play that USO final any differently than she would against any other great returner. Kim and Capriati both immediately come to mind. And the waiting game she displayed out there during a good portion of the match is typical of her. Serena often waits for that one opening on which to capitalize. Next thing you know, she broken her opponent and not looking back.

Serena knows when to turn it up or when to try something different. Her fans are often awarded with heart attacks during these periods, but she does come through for the win more often than not. Plus, she was in amazing form entering the USO, and very healthy.
Still, the fact is, she won the USO, and it wasn't Azarenka who gave her the match.
That can't be what you're implying, is it?

End da Game
Nov 15th, 2012, 01:51 AM
maria's mental toughness is overrated, its no better than serena's or azerenka's

NashaMasha
Nov 15th, 2012, 02:02 AM
maria's mental toughness is overrated, its no better than serena's or azerenka's

what matches Maria lost in 2012 because of mental problems, choking?

Lachy
Nov 15th, 2012, 02:03 AM
Where are the people saying Azarenka is more mentally tough than Maria? Seriously? The girl chucks a tantrum the MOMENT she starts losing in a match. People think she's changed over the years? LOL - no - once a brat, always a brat. There is NO way Azarenka is more mentally tough than Maria - Serena I'll give you.

LOL - nice laugh there.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ln51r7HsQm1qcccm2.gif

Noten
Nov 15th, 2012, 02:36 AM
Where are the people saying Azarenka is more mentally tough than Maria? Seriously? The girl chucks a tantrum the MOMENT she starts losing in a match. People think she's changed over the years? LOL - no - once a brat, always a brat. There is NO way Azarenka is more mentally tough than Maria - Serena I'll give you.

LOL - nice laugh there.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ln51r7HsQm1qcccm2.gif

Some time ago Azarenka's tantrums were a sing that she was going to collapse, but now I think they help her more than they affect her. She has turned them into something positive, which shows that her mentality has improved.

I agree though that she's not mentally stronger than Pova, but somehow she's way fearless, at least at the moment.

Lachy
Nov 15th, 2012, 03:10 AM
Some time ago Azarenka's tantrums were a sing that she was going to collapse, but now I think they help her more than they affect her. She has turned them into something positive, which shows that her mentality has improved.

I agree though that she's not mentally stronger than Pova, but somehow she's way fearless, at least at the moment.

When she's winning...it's easy to look like a mental giant when you're winning matches. Look to her matches this year when she's losing - she makes drama, makes it about herself - bar the match against Serena because she wouldn't have gotten away with it.

RVD
Nov 15th, 2012, 04:01 AM
Didn't Sharapova cry on court during a drubbing from Serena?
Doesn't speak much for the mentally tough argument.

Stonerpova
Nov 15th, 2012, 04:20 AM
Didn't Sharapova cry on court during a drubbing from Serena?
Doesn't speak much for the mentally tough argument.

Serena cried against Razzano at the French Open :shrug:

RVD
Nov 15th, 2012, 04:30 AM
Serena cried against Razzano at the French Open :shrug:Did she?
I had a family emergency and didn't watch. Are you sure? Where are the pics and gifs of this?
This is news to me.

Stonerpova
Nov 15th, 2012, 04:37 AM
Did she?
I had a family emergency and didn't watch. Are you sure? Where are the pics and gifs of this?
This is news to me.

Video's on this website:

http://www.sportsgrid.com/tennis/serena-williams-cries-french-open/

My point is players have off days, emotionally and otherwise.

RVD
Nov 15th, 2012, 04:45 AM
Video's on this website:

http://www.sportsgrid.com/tennis/serena-williams-cries-french-open/

My point is players have off days, emotionally and otherwise.Ah, thank you.
And agreed.

bandabou
Nov 15th, 2012, 06:12 AM
You don't agree with me that her serve is the best in tennis and that her defense is as good as her offense, which makes her almost unplayable?

I don't agree with the view that Serena is more 'complete'. Look at the US final, when her game went off she didn't try anything different. She just kept hitting hard and hoping it would go in. It was due to Azarenka getting tight that she scraped through rather than her changing her game and adapting to the situation.

Of course Serena changed her game..she went from making too many error to actually pick the right spots to attack and then this got to Vika..but this is what Serena does.

Stonerpova
Nov 15th, 2012, 06:16 AM
Of course Serena changed her game..she went from making too many error to actually pick the right spots to attack and then this got to Vika..but this is what Serena does.

This. She has this amazing ability to stop missing when it matters most.

SymphonyX
Nov 15th, 2012, 11:21 AM
maria's mental toughness is overrated, its no better than serena's or azerenka's

Not overrated at all. The amount of times Sharapova has badly (as in REALLY, REALLY BAD) this year AND still won is simply ridiculous. She REFUSES to lose.

Her only kryptonite is Azarenka and Serena because both of them respond faster than her and play "first strike" and "1-2 punch" tennis better than her. IMO, Sharapova takes too much time to recover from her moves, particularly her serve.

When Azarenka plays bad, you don't see her fighting through like Maria or Serena. She's definitely mentally weaker than Maria, it's just that she's been a lot more consistent this year. Only Serena is mentally tougher than Maria.

When it comes to sheer firepower, it's still:
1) Serena
2) Maria
...
3) Victoria

Unfortunately when it comes to reaction time:
1) Victoria
2) Serena
...
3) Maria

Too bad for Maria she doesn't have her old serve. Azarenka wouldn't have become THIS much of a problem. Azarenka's superb return allows her to play always play "first strike" tennis on Maria's service and this has a negative impact on her entire game. I'm a lot more confident in Maria's return game than her service since 2009. However, her confidence stems from her serve.

MrProdigy555
Nov 15th, 2012, 03:41 PM
Azarenka DOES fight through. I don't know what you people are talking about. Vika guts out wins.

The only thing is, Vika's quality of play doesn't range as high or as low as Serena's/Sharapova's. Her level of play is much more consistent throughout matches. That's a positive when she's playing most of the other women, but not necessarily a positive when playing Serena (or Sharapova) because they can both raise their level, imo.

doomsday
Nov 15th, 2012, 04:38 PM
Azarenka DOES fight through. I don't know what you people are talking about. Vika guts out wins.

The only thing is, Vika's quality of play doesn't range as high or as low as Serena's/Sharapova's. Her level of play is much more consistent throughout matches. That's a positive when she's playing most of the other women, but not necessarily a positive when playing Serena (or Sharapova) because they can both raise their level, imo.

Agreed I'd add Kvitova on the list and I feel like those players are well aware of that.
In all matches Vika and Maria played each other, Vika always had similar stats overall, it's quite consistent but her tennis isn't explosive. Like you said never too low never too high.

Queen_Vee_92
Nov 15th, 2012, 07:15 PM
Azarenka DOES fight through. I don't know what you people are talking about. Vika guts out wins.

The only thing is, Vika's quality of play doesn't range as high or as low as Serena's/Sharapova's. Her level of play is much more consistent throughout matches. That's a positive when she's playing most of the other women, but not necessarily a positive when playing Serena (or Sharapova) because they can both raise their level, imo.

Agreed I'd add Kvitova on the list and I feel like those players are well aware of that.
In all matches Vika and Maria played each other, Vika always had similar stats overall, it's quite consistent but her tennis isn't explosive. Like you said never too low never too high.


You've absolutely hit the nail on the head when it comes to Vika against anyone with a "bigger game" really.

I'd call her an offensive player rather than a power player. She certainly has game, but it's so controlled and consistent that she's never really had to sustain a game plan of blowing someone off a court in the way a Rena/Maria/Petra has. Meaning that her standard game is 9 times out of 10 too much for everyone else, but when she encounters one of the other girls i mentioned when they're "on" then she hasn't had the practice to go for lights out tennis and she always comes off second best.

RVD
Nov 15th, 2012, 07:25 PM
Azarenka DOES fight through. I don't know what you people are talking about. Vika guts out wins.

The only thing is, Vika's quality of play doesn't range as high or as low as Serena's/Sharapova's. Her level of play is much more consistent throughout matches. That's a positive when she's playing most of the other women, but not necessarily a positive when playing Serena (or Sharapova) because they can both raise their level, imo.MrProdigy, this is a great analysis. :cool:

DevilishAttitude
Nov 15th, 2012, 07:34 PM
So, Azarenka GAVE Serena the US Open title? You are something else. Serena took that title.

:rolleyes:

Naw, I agree with those. :) It's just that the list wasn't quite complete/accurate.
For example Serena's return game vs Azarenka's.

Are you saying that Serena has only an 'A' game?

Actually Serena has employed different plans throughout here career. She may get lazy, as all athletes infrequently do, but she definitely has more than a single plan.
Plus, she has several gears at her disposal.

Personally, Serena didn't play that USO final any differently than she would against any other great returner. Kim and Capriati both immediately come to mind. And the waiting game she displayed out there during a good portion of the match is typical of her. Serena often waits for that one opening on which to capitalize. Next thing you know, she broken her opponent and not looking back.

Serena knows when to turn it up or when to try something different. Her fans are often awarded with heart attacks during these periods, but she does come through for the win more often than not. Plus, she was in amazing form entering the USO, and very healthy.
Still, the fact is, she won the USO, and it wasn't Azarenka who gave her the match.
That can't be what you're implying, is it?

I didn't mention Serena's return. Serena's certainly a more spectacular returner than Azarenka when she's on form, and will hit some stunning winners. But she's not as consistent with them as Azarenka and will throw away whole return games away due to poor returning.

No, I think people are not getting my point. When Serena is playing her best, the rest might as well go home, they ain't gonna get near her. If she's playing well, it's the same. Serena's strengths are above everyone's else when she's on song.

But is she always on song? No. Is she invincible? No. She reined her game in at the end of that match against Azarenka. She read the situation right, but you can't tell me that Azarenka didn't falter right at the end? Serena used her experience in big matches at the end.

Not overrated at all. The amount of times Sharapova has badly (as in REALLY, REALLY BAD) this year AND still won is simply ridiculous. She REFUSES to lose.

Her only kryptonite is Azarenka and Serena because both of them respond faster than her and play "first strike" and "1-2 punch" tennis better than her. IMO, Sharapova takes too much time to recover from her moves, particularly her serve.

When Azarenka plays bad, you don't see her fighting through like Maria or Serena. She's definitely mentally weaker than Maria, it's just that she's been a lot more consistent this year. Only Serena is mentally tougher than Maria.

When it comes to sheer firepower, it's still:
1) Serena
2) Maria
...
3) Victoria

Unfortunately when it comes to reaction time:
1) Victoria
2) Serena
...
3) Maria

Too bad for Maria she doesn't have her old serve. Azarenka wouldn't have become THIS much of a problem. Azarenka's superb return allows her to play always play "first strike" tennis on Maria's service and this has a negative impact on her entire game. I'm a lot more confident in Maria's return game than her service since 2009. However, her confidence stems from her serve.

That's exactly what I've been saying in this thread about Maria's mental strength and that it's flaws in her actual game are the problem, nothing to do with her mind.

netphobia
Nov 15th, 2012, 08:08 PM
Strengths:

Maria- Shrieking and OCD
Aza- Bitchiness and cooing
Aga- Pushing and frowning
Li Na- Insulting her husband
Kvitova- Hitting 20 errors in one point
Serena- butt size
Stosur- choking
Errani- Wa-heee!
Kerber- anger

:hysteric:

(Also, I've read people saying that Vika is better at returning a strong serve, while Serena is the best at punishing a weak serve. Thoughts?)

RVD
Nov 15th, 2012, 08:23 PM
:rolleyes:



I didn't mention Serena's return. Serena's certainly a more spectacular returner than Azarenka when she's on form, and will hit some stunning winners. But she's not as consistent with them as Azarenka and will throw away whole return games away due to poor returning.I don't think that it's a matter of her return game breaking down, insomuch as she routinely goes on a mental walk-a-bout when her opponent isn't playing at as high a level as she is.
We've seen this from Serena so many times, and it's frustrating to watch as a fan.
No, I think people are not getting my point. When Serena is playing her best, the rest might as well go home, they ain't gonna get near her. If she's playing well, it's the same. Serena's strengths are above everyone's else when she's on song.I get your point now that you've embellished on it. However, you didn't mention these earlier.But is she always on song? No. Is she invincible? No. She reined her game in at the end of that match against Azarenka. She read the situation right, but you can't tell me that Azarenka didn't falter right at the end? Serena used her experience in big matches at the end.Did Azarenka's level drop near the end?
Yes.
But Serena lives for those moments.
Also, Serena has this uncanny way of sticking with an opponent who is peaking and in the zone, and then pouncing once they expose an opening.
The only recent match in memory that Serena failed to truly stage a comeback in was at the 2012 FO.
However, if you can link me to several matches where she demonstrated a pattern return inconsistency, then I'd be completely willing to concede your point. :)

BuTtErFrEnA
Nov 15th, 2012, 08:23 PM
That's exactly what I've been saying in this thread about Maria's mental strength and that it's flaws in her actual game are the problem, nothing to do with her mind.

flaws in your game can and do affect your mental game especially against people who have strengths that void yours/exploit your own weaknesses...

otoh you can have the world of confidence against someone you know can't exploit your weaknesses/your strengths neutralise theirs

so yes it does have something to do with her mind - it's why sometimes no matter how either is playing, martha loses 9 times out of 10 to serena:

the serve, which pulls her through against other players, is being smack across the court for clean winners or being put deep and places her on the defence - mental set back cause your mind is now in defence mode (exploiting weakness)

the return she can use to easily break others, is rendered basically useless because she's not able to anticipate them well enough (strength of serena's serve voiding strength of martha's return - mental set back which now puts return AND service games out of her hands)

power game which can probably overpower 95% of the tour is equally matched by great defence (mental set back - having to hit a whole series of great shots to win points affects almost everyone mentally especially when you're not accustomed to having to do it against the same 95% of the tour - exploits the consistency, or lack there of)

bandabou
Nov 15th, 2012, 08:34 PM
:rolleyes:



I didn't mention Serena's return. Serena's certainly a more spectacular returner than Azarenka when she's on form, and will hit some stunning winners. But she's not as consistent with them as Azarenka and will throw away whole return games away due to poor returning.

No, I think people are not getting my point. When Serena is playing her best, the rest might as well go home, they ain't gonna get near her. If she's playing well, it's the same. Serena's strengths are above everyone's else when she's on song.

But is she always on song? No. Is she invincible? No. She reined her game in at the end of that match against Azarenka. She read the situation right, but you can't tell me that Azarenka didn't falter right at the end? Serena used her experience in big matches at the end.



That's exactly what I've been saying in this thread about Maria's mental strength and that it's flaws in her actual game are the problem, nothing to do with her mind.

So when Serena rains her game in and snatches victory from defeat...her opponent choked, rather than Serena's superior mental strength coming through..yet when Masha wins matches she had no business winning, it's all because her mental strength?! :lol:

Ah these Mashatards, they're cute.

BuTtErFrEnA
Nov 16th, 2012, 12:26 AM
So when Serena rains her game in and snatches victory from defeat...her opponent choked, rather than Serena's superior mental strength coming through..yet when Masha wins matches she had no business winning, it's all because her mental strength?! :lol:

Ah these Mashatards, they're cute.

you know how it is :lol:

Cajka
Nov 16th, 2012, 12:45 AM
So when Serena rains her game in and snatches victory from defeat...her opponent choked, rather than Serena's superior mental strength coming through..yet when Masha wins matches she had no business winning, it's all because her mental strength?! :lol:


I'd say that Maria wins ugly more often than Serena. Serena really gets frustrated after bad misses, while Maria looks like she doesn't care, she can make few double faults in a row, but she won't even show any sign of frustration. But when it comes to mentality in big matches, that's not even a contest, Maria's record in finals since 2009 has been very unimpressive, while Serena lost like 4 or 5 finals since 2005 or so. So, I'd pick Serena over Maria in mentality department with no doubt.

bandabou
Nov 16th, 2012, 06:12 AM
I'd say that Maria wins ugly more often than Serena. Serena really gets frustrated after bad misses, while Maria looks like she doesn't care, she can make few double faults in a row, but she won't even show any sign of frustration. But when it comes to mentality in big matches, that's not even a contest, Maria's record in finals since 2009 has been very unimpressive, while Serena lost like 4 or 5 finals since 2005 or so. So, I'd pick Serena over Maria in mentality department with no doubt.

Serena can indeed get more visibly frustrated..but her ability to RAISE to the ocation is almost un-matched.

BuTtErFrEnA
Nov 16th, 2012, 11:52 AM
I'd say that Maria wins ugly more often than Serena. Serena really gets frustrated after bad misses, while Maria looks like she doesn't care, she can make few double faults in a row, but she won't even show any sign of frustration. But when it comes to mentality in big matches, that's not even a contest, Maria's record in finals since 2009 has been very unimpressive, while Serena lost like 4 or 5 finals since 2005 or so. So, I'd pick Serena over Maria in mentality department with no doubt.

if serena always let bad misses get to her she'd never win 15 slams :shrug: she's won playing like utter crap and lost playing like utter crap...all top players get there because they have the ability to shove bad misses to the back burner and make that winning shot when it counts

one thing i've heard commentators and her past rivals say about her is her ability to MAKE the same shots she was missing all match long...serena vents her frustration (nothing new) more while martha seems more like "ice queen", but that outward appearance clearly doesn't show the mental strain going on inside

NashaMasha
Nov 16th, 2012, 12:01 PM
I'd say that Maria wins ugly more often than Serena. Serena really gets frustrated after bad misses, while Maria looks like she doesn't care, she can make few double faults in a row, but she won't even show any sign of frustration. But when it comes to mentality in big matches, that's not even a contest, Maria's record in finals since 2009 has been very unimpressive, while Serena lost like 4 or 5 finals since 2005 or so. So, I'd pick Serena over Maria in mentality department with no doubt.


Masha reached a number of finals just with a help of the mental strength of a fighter , but with so-so game on court, especailly in the beginning of 2012 .... The problem is that in final it's not enough versus a player in top form and showing the best tennis on this tournament .... Actually she lost only one Final , which she must have won (Miami) , all the rest she lost to a better player that moment

Cajka
Nov 16th, 2012, 12:21 PM
if serena always let bad misses get to her she'd never win 15 slams :shrug: she's won playing like utter crap and lost playing like utter crap...all top players get there because they have the ability to shove bad misses to the back burner and make that winning shot when it counts

I was mostly talking about earlier rounds of the tournaments, especially during the last 2 seasons and I'd say that she's less likely to win ugly in early rounds than Maria. Her career is very long and it's silly to say that she always loses the matches when she plays bad. I'll check what I posted, if I ever wrote "always" or something similar, my brain was probably off. :lol:

one thing i've heard commentators and her past rivals say about her is her ability to MAKE the same shots she was missing all match long...serena vents her frustration (nothing new) more while martha seems more like "ice queen", but that outward appearance clearly doesn't show the mental strain going on inside

I haven't heard commentators saying it, because our commentators are awful, but I did notice that. I wanted to write it when someone mentioned that she doesn't try to change anything. I think it's a huge belief in her own shots. So, if some of her shots doesn't work, she won't get insecure or try to avoid it, she'll continue hitting it until it starts working. Novak does the same thing, if his bh dtl is off for a set and a half, he won't stop hitting it, it's his best shot and he's sure it's gonna start working sooner or later. That's how he makes those comebacks. It's a great attitude and it's a message for the opponent. But I wasn't talking about situations when one of her shots doesn't work, it's probably the best to say that she gets frustrated when her whole game is streaky, when she can't find her rhythm during the whole match (which doesn't happen often), while Maria wins tons of such matches. and that's the only part of her mentality) that is weaker than Maria's. As for the rest, it's not even close.

Cajka
Nov 16th, 2012, 12:41 PM
Masha reached a number of finals just with a help of the mental strength of a fighter , but with so-so game on court, especailly in the beginning of 2012 .... The problem is that in final it's not enough versus a player in top form and showing the best tennis on this tournament .... Actually she lost only one Final , which she must have won (Miami) , all the rest she lost to a better player that moment

After 2-0 in the beginning of the match against Vika, she won only one game. Clijsters wasn't at her best, but she gave Azarenka a match, Aga won a set against Vika, none of these matches were a final. You expect that the other finalist was the best player in that side of the draw. It's not a 2nd round against lower-ranked player, from r4 until the final you don't expect such scorelines. And Maria lost too many finals with horrible scorelines, if that has nothing to do with mentality, then IDK.

bandabou
Nov 16th, 2012, 12:49 PM
if serena always let bad misses get to her she'd never win 15 slams :shrug: she's won playing like utter crap and lost playing like utter crap...all top players get there because they have the ability to shove bad misses to the back burner and make that winning shot when it counts

one thing i've heard commentators and her past rivals say about her is her ability to MAKE the same shots she was missing all match long...serena vents her frustration (nothing new) more while martha seems more like "ice queen", but that outward appearance clearly doesn't show the mental strain going on inside

Exactly...Serena can be missing forehands ALL match, but when it's crunch time..she just buckle downs.
Clearly illustrated in this year's u.s. open final.

BuTtErFrEnA
Nov 16th, 2012, 12:52 PM
I was mostly talking about earlier rounds of the tournaments, especially during the last 2 seasons and I'd say that she's less likely to win ugly in early rounds than Maria. Her career is very long and it's silly to say that she always loses the matches when she plays bad. I'll check what I posted, if I ever wrote "always" or something similar, my brain was probably off. :lol:



I haven't heard commentators saying it, because our commentators are awful, but I did notice that. I wanted to write it when someone mentioned that she doesn't try to change anything. I think it's a huge belief in her own shots. So, if some of her shots doesn't work, she won't get insecure or try to avoid it, she'll continue hitting it until it starts working. Novak does the same thing, if his bh dtl is off for a set and a half, he won't stop hitting it, it's his best shot and he's sure it's gonna start working sooner or later. That's how he makes those comebacks. It's a great attitude and it's a message for the opponent. But I wasn't talking about situations when one of her shots doesn't work, it's probably the best to say that she gets frustrated when her whole game is streaky, when she can't find her rhythm during the whole match (which doesn't happen often), while Maria wins tons of such matches. and that's the only part of her mentality) that is weaker than Maria's. As for the rest, it's not even close.

I see what you're saying ;)

MrProdigy555
Nov 16th, 2012, 03:35 PM
Wimbledon 2010...Serena had no ground game. lol.

Wimbledon 2012...Serena was winning ugly from the very beginning. :shrug:

NashaP
Nov 16th, 2012, 03:56 PM
Wimbledon 2010...Serena had no ground game. lol.

Wimbledon 2012...Serena was winning ugly from the very beginning. :shrug:

servebot :lol:

DevilishAttitude
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:17 PM
So when Serena rains her game in and snatches victory from defeat...her opponent choked, rather than Serena's superior mental strength coming through..yet when Masha wins matches she had no business winning, it's all because her mental strength?! :lol:

Ah these Mashatards, they're cute.

I'm not a Sharapova fan and I never made any of those statements actually.

bandabou
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:52 PM
I'm not a Sharapova fan and I never made any of those statements actually.

Not with the words, but..:lol:

Lachy
Nov 18th, 2012, 01:55 PM
Not with the words, but..:lol:

Still didn't stop you from labeling someone instantly a Mashatard if they speak against the supposed divine goddess Sarin herself. Fear not, rest now young bandabou...for you'll have your free roam in Siberian Siren later no doubt.

bandabou
Nov 18th, 2012, 02:03 PM
Still didn't stop you from labeling someone instantly a Mashatard if they speak against the supposed divine goddess Sarin herself. Fear not, rest now young bandabou...for you'll have your free roam in Siberian Siren later no doubt.

I didn't call THAT poster a Mashatard..but some Mashatards DID say that Maria's tougher mentally than Serena, no?! :shrug:

Lachy
Nov 18th, 2012, 02:19 PM
I didn't call THAT poster a Mashatard..but some Mashatards DID say that Maria's tougher mentally than Serena, no?! :shrug:

So what? Who says that their opinion would be wrong? YOU? Who? Does it matter?

DevilishAttitude
Nov 18th, 2012, 02:29 PM
Maria has to be mentally tough, because when her game is off, she really doesn't have anywhere to go. Her serve is too inconsistent, her defense isn't great, she doesn't have any real feel to be effective at net and her footwork is too flaky for her to protect herself when she's making too many errors. Maria's game is all or nothing, and when it's nothing her game is very one-dimensional and rigid.

But, she can keep herself calm, she takes it one point at a time, she wills herself to play better and has enough patience in her game that she believes it will come good before it's too late. Her losses this year have either come against players who were better on the day (like a Lisicki at Wimbledon for example) or players who are better overall than her, such as Serena.

Serena doesn't need to be as mentally tough in this sense, because she's a better player overall and she can be protected by her serve and good movement if her game is off. Her problem is when she gets rattled. When that happens, she does go into meltdown, such as at the French Open, or in the US Open in 2011. I think as well, being past 30 now and after everything she's been through, she also understands just how big slam finals and matches are. She knows she could break records, and she puts a lot of pressure on herself because she knows time is running out. An example of that was the second set of the US Open final, when she went to playing well, to playing poorly, in a matter of points, for no apparent reason. I believe the reasons for this was she knew she was in a position to beat those demons from the previous two US Open's and because she realised "oh my god, I could win grand slam #15", and began to feel the pressure of it.

But she only gets rattled on very rare occasions, and that's because she's in control of at least 95% of her matches, due to her strengths being so overwhelming. And even if she does gets rattled like example in the second set of the Wimbledon final, she can get herself back together if you give her enough time to do so.

bandabou
Nov 18th, 2012, 02:34 PM
So what? Who says that their opinion would be wrong? YOU? Who? Does it matter?

In the end, it doesn't matter..so you're right. :)

rjd1111
Nov 19th, 2012, 12:56 AM
" #1 Victoria Azarenka
Strengths:
- Currently the best returner in the game "



I have heard this said about Sharapova also.

Serena IMO is the best returner in the game today

She is 8 - 0 vs the two players above

and her return was a major part of those victories.

the way she was slapping their serves around

Players are afraid to serve to her. Even good

servers have double faults when playing her.

they know they have to put something more on their serves

to keep from eating it...hence....doublefaults.

Miss Atomic Bomb
Nov 19th, 2012, 07:57 AM
At 4-4 30-30 which player are you going to bet on to pull through?

Throughout her career, Serena has shown an unparalleled ability to raise her game when her back is against the wall. She might have been missing all her backhands and forehand throughout the match, but when it comes to the clutch times she starts turning them into winning shots more often than not. Her will to not lose along with her serve as set her apart from all her peers

And LOL @ at people saying Martha wins ugly more times than Serena does so she is mentally superior. Martha has to win ugly because she is vastly INFERIOR as a player.

Sent from my Galaxy Note II using VerticalSports.Com App

MrProdigy555
Nov 19th, 2012, 08:17 AM
At 4-4 30-30 which player are you going to bet on to pull through?

Throughout her career, Serena has shown an unparalleled ability to raise her game when her back is against the wall. She might have been missing all her backhands and forehand throughout the match, but when it comes to the clutch times she starts turning them into winning shots more often than not. Her will to not lose along with her serve as set her apart from all her peers

And LOL @ at people saying Martha wins ugly more times than Serena does so she is mentally superior. Martha has to win ugly because she is vastly INFERIOR as a player.

Sent from my Galaxy Note II using VerticalSports.Com App
Clock that T, bb.


*an example of this is when Serena was down at the US Open (Vika 5-4 30-15, I think) and Serena hit an unbelievable running forehand winner down the line. That point made the difference of either having to fend off 2 match points or having an easier chance of breaking Azarenka. Serena shows up, mentally, for those important moments.

bandabou
Nov 19th, 2012, 08:52 AM
Clock that T, bb.


*an example of this is when Serena was down at the US Open (Vika 5-4 30-15, I think) and Serena hit an unbelievable running forehand winner down the line. That point made the difference of either having to fend off 2 match points or having an easier chance of breaking Azarenka. Serena shows up, mentally, for those important moments.

Good points. That's what makes Serena..not only her condifence that she will make it, but the fearlessness.
Her forehand was gone for a whol set and a half..but 5-4 30-15 down? She GOES for it..full throttle down the line and KNOWS she will make it. THAT'S mental toughness.

Chrissie-fan
Nov 19th, 2012, 10:19 AM
And LOL @ at people saying Martha wins ugly more times than Serena does so she is mentally superior. Martha has to win ugly because she is vastly INFERIOR as a player.
Well, every player is inferior to Serena, not only Maria. To enable someone to challenge Serena on a consistent basis she would need all the best qualities of every other top player combined. But reading TF one could get the impression that the top ten or twenty players consist of one genius and a collection of nobody's, which does neither Serena or the tour as a whole any favors.

As for mental superiority, I think that both, or all three if we include Vika are very tough. The outstanding record that both Maria and Vika have in three set matches testify to that. The main reason that for example Maria always loses by such a big margin against Serena is that everything Maria does very well Serena does even better. I don't think that a lack of mental toughness is the reason why Maria suffers all those beatdowns, she's just being outhit. In their match at the YEC for example I think Maria was mentally as tough as she could possibly be and she definitely played a good match. But to no avail because Serena was just too good.

It's hard to measure mental toughness anyway. For all we know the #250 ranked player in the world may be a mental giant, but she's just not good enough to do better and without her mental toughness she might be the #500.

bandabou
Nov 19th, 2012, 11:55 AM
Well, every player is inferior to Serena, not only Maria. To enable someone to challenge Serena on a consistent basis she would need all the best qualities of every other top player combined. But reading TF one could get the impression that the top ten or twenty players consist of one genius and a collection of nobody's, which does neither Serena or the tour as a whole any favors.

As for mental superiority, I think that both, or all three if we include Vika are very tough. The outstanding record that both Maria and Vika have in three set matches testify to that. The main reason that for example Maria always loses by such a big margin against Serena is that everything Maria does very well Serena does even better. I don't think that a lack of mental toughness is the reason why Maria suffers all those beatdowns, she's just being outhit. In their match at the YEC for example I think Maria was mentally as tough as she could possibly be and she definitely played a good match. But to no avail because Serena was just too good.

It's hard to measure mental toughness anyway. For all we know the #250 ranked player in the world may be a mental giant, but she's just not good enough to do better and without her mental toughness she might be the #500.

I hear you, buddy.

But the thing is: you're like the ONLY voice of reason among Mashafans. :lol:
If Mashatards would just accept the fact that Serena IS better than Maria..mentally, gamewise, movementwise, etc... then there wouldn't be much problem.

Instead all you hear from douchesanders and co: Serena doesn't have a groundgame, Serena doesn't have movement, yada yada..

NashaMasha
Nov 19th, 2012, 12:02 PM
If Mashatards would just accept the fact that Serena IS better than Maria..mentally, gamewise, movementwise, etc... then there wouldn't be much problem.


they wouldn't , because Masha won 2 big Finals playing verus Serena and it's hers, nobody else won more big finals playing against Serena

bandabou
Nov 19th, 2012, 12:11 PM
they wouldn't , because Masha won 2 big Finals playing verus Serena and it's hers, nobody else won more big finals playing against Serena

2 wins followed with 9 losses in a row ( with scorelines 6-1 6-0, 6-1 6-1, etc..)
All those two losses have been set straight so thoroughly by Serena I mean..and you guys STILL talking?! :help:

NashaMasha
Nov 19th, 2012, 12:18 PM
2 wins followed with 9 losses in a row ( with scorelines 6-1 6-0, 6-1 6-1, etc..)
All those two losses have been set straight so thoroughly by Serena I mean..and you guys STILL talking?! :help:

or 2-6 7-5 8-6, 7-5 4-6 6-1, 7-6(9) 6-4

a number of players haven't won a match vs her, it will take centuries when the likes of overhyped here Azarenkas and Radwanskas will win 2 Finals versus Serena or maybe they will never do it

Henin won only 2 matches vs Serena outside clay , Clijsters, Mauresmo also only 2 matches , but only Masha is always being mocked for not beating Serena more

bandabou
Nov 19th, 2012, 12:54 PM
or 2-6 7-5 8-6, 7-5 4-6 6-1, 7-6(9) 6-4

a number of players haven't won a match vs her, it will take centuries when the likes of overhyped here Azarenkas and Radwanskas will win 2 Finals versus Serena or maybe they will never do it

Henin won only 2 matches vs Serena outside clay , Clijsters, Mauresmo also only 2 matches , but only Masha is always being mocked for not beating Serena more

Because none of them were even put on a pedestal they didn't deserve. Commentators saying things like: maria's still the better player and this was in '12, yada yada... that's the reason that Masha gets the full wrath.

doomsday
Nov 19th, 2012, 12:59 PM
I hear you, buddy.

But the thing is: you're like the ONLY voice of reason among Mashafans. :lol:
If Mashatards would just accept the fact that Serena IS better than Maria..mentally, gamewise, movementwise, etc... then there wouldn't be much problem.

Instead all you hear from douchesanders and co: Serena doesn't have a groundgame, Serena doesn't have movement, yada yada..

Serena is better than Maria off clay this can't be contested.
But on clay, Maria is miles ahead of her as well.

Stonerpova
Nov 19th, 2012, 01:09 PM
Because none of them were even put on a pedestal they didn't deserve. Commentators saying things like: maria's still the better player and this was in '12, yada yada... that's the reason that Masha gets the full wrath.

Who said Maria was better this year :confused:

Chrissie-fan
Nov 19th, 2012, 01:13 PM
But the thing is: you're like the ONLY voice of reason among Mashafans. :lol:
If Mashatards would just accept the fact that Serena IS better than Maria..mentally, gamewise, movementwise, etc... then there wouldn't be much problem.

I very much doubt that I'm "the only voice of reason among Mashafans." It's just that people on both side of the issue often are drawn into a mudpie throwing contest, or something that comes close to it whenever there is a this vs that player discussion, and Serena vs Maria seems an even more sensitive comparison than most. So whenever they feel that someone from the opposite side is throwing a shade (learned that expression at GM, so it's good for something after all ;)) at their fave they go into payback mode and say something that they hope will upset them as well, even though they don't really think it's true, or it's at least an exaggerated version of what they think is true. It's a vicious circle really. Nobody is really sure who started it but everyone is convinced that it wasn't them. :lol:

bandabou
Nov 19th, 2012, 01:25 PM
Who said Maria was better this year :confused:

Mary Carillo...you know the usual suspects.

bandabou
Nov 19th, 2012, 01:26 PM
Serena is better than Maria off clay this can't be contested.
But on clay, Maria is miles ahead of her as well.

Recently Masha's had the better results on clay, so yeah...kinda like Juju vs Serena.

Chrissie-fan
Nov 19th, 2012, 01:31 PM
Because none of them were even put on a pedestal they didn't deserve. Commentators saying things like: maria's still the better player and this was in '12, yada yada... that's the reason that Masha gets the full wrath.
Well, Maria didn't say that. Carillo is the one you should be upset with, not Maria. :lol:

bandabou
Nov 19th, 2012, 01:52 PM
Well, Maria didn't say that. Carillo is the one you should be upset with, not Maria. :lol:

Not mad at Maria...:angel:

Nabalonge
Nov 19th, 2012, 06:48 PM
I very much doubt that I'm "the only voice of reason among Mashafans." It's just that people on both side of the issue often are drawn into a mudpie throwing contest, or something that comes close to it whenever there is a this vs that player discussion, and Serena vs Maria seems an even more sensitive comparison than most. So whenever they feel that someone from the opposite side is throwing a shade (learned that expression at GM, so it's good for something after all ;)) at their fave they go into payback mode and say something that they hope will upset them as well, even though they don't really think it's true, or it's at least an exaggerated version of what they think is true. It's a vicious circle really. Nobody is really sure who started it but everyone is convinced that it wasn't them. :lol:

It is sensitive only because the comparison has nothing to do with the tennis on court. I would say that maybe Serena vs Justine, if we are talking about contemporaries, would have been a better if not more legitimate comparison since it would deal with on court results, achievements and stature as champions. Serena against Maria is everything but that.

Nabalonge
Nov 19th, 2012, 06:52 PM
Azarenka DOES fight through. I don't know what you people are talking about. Vika guts out wins.

The only thing is, Vika's quality of play doesn't range as high or as low as Serena's/Sharapova's. Her level of play is much more consistent throughout matches. That's a positive when she's playing most of the other women, but not necessarily a positive when playing Serena (or Sharapova) because they can both raise their level, imo.


This is one of the reasons why I like Victoria.

bandabou
Nov 19th, 2012, 07:00 PM
It is sensitive only because the comparison has nothing to do with the tennis on court. I would say that maybe Serena vs Justine, if we are talking about contemporaries, would have been a better if not more legitimate comparison since it would deal with on court results, achievements and stature as champions. Serena against Maria is everything but that.

Exactly..Serena vs Maria was never any discussion for anybody who was objectively looking at the numbers. But because she was the glamour girl, the token white girl...people hyped her up.

MrProdigy555
Nov 19th, 2012, 07:06 PM
This is one of the reasons why I like Victoria.
Do you also like Ferrer?

DevilishAttitude
Nov 19th, 2012, 07:35 PM
Well, every player is inferior to Serena, not only Maria. To enable someone to challenge Serena on a consistent basis she would need all the best qualities of every other top player combined. But reading TF one could get the impression that the top ten or twenty players consist of one genius and a collection of nobody's, which does neither Serena or the tour as a whole any favors.

As for mental superiority, I think that both, or all three if we include Vika are very tough. The outstanding record that both Maria and Vika have in three set matches testify to that. The main reason that for example Maria always loses by such a big margin against Serena is that everything Maria does very well Serena does even better. I don't think that a lack of mental toughness is the reason why Maria suffers all those beatdowns, she's just being outhit. In their match at the YEC for example I think Maria was mentally as tough as she could possibly be and she definitely played a good match. But to no avail because Serena was just too good.

It's hard to measure mental toughness anyway. For all we know the #250 ranked player in the world may be a mental giant, but she's just not good enough to do better and without her mental toughness she might be the #500.

This is exactly what I've been saying. Maria's losses to Serena come down to being not as good, nothing to do with mental weakness.

I hear you, buddy.

But the thing is: you're like the ONLY voice of reason among Mashafans. :lol:
If Mashatards would just accept the fact that Serena IS better than Maria..mentally, gamewise, movementwise, etc... then there wouldn't be much problem.

Instead all you hear from douchesanders and co: Serena doesn't have a groundgame, Serena doesn't have movement, yada yada..

I hope you aren't including me in this, all I have said is that Maria is tough mentally, whereas Serena can very occasionally go into a meltdown. I haven't said there is a single other area of Sharapova's game which I would call better than Serena's.

Who said Maria was better this year :confused:

Exactly. I'm not sure why this has turned into a Serena vs Maria thread. Their strengths and weaknesses are obvious, and every tennis fan knows Serena is the better player. It's almost as if cos there's one area that Maria might be equal or better than Serena, that it's treated with fury by Serena fans who can't bear to hear that she might not be the best at something. Particularly when it's a comparison to hear and Maria.

bandabou
Nov 19th, 2012, 08:31 PM
This is exactly what I've been saying. Maria's losses to Serena come down to being not as good, nothing to do with mental weakness.

Serena is better AND mentally tougher than Maria. :wavey:


I hope you aren't including me in this, all I have said is that Maria is tough mentally, whereas Serena can very occasionally go into a meltdown. I haven't said there is a single other area of Sharapova's game which I would call better than Serena's.

And in what fantasyland you decided that Maria is tougher mentally than Serena?! That's the thing that puzzles me. Maria is KNOWN for folding like a cheap tent against any decent opponent. Whereas Serena has come back many many times against world class opponents like Juju, Vee, etc.. :shrug:

Exactly. I'm not sure why this has turned into a Serena vs Maria thread. Their strengths and weaknesses are obvious, and every tennis fan knows Serena is the better player. It's almost as if cos there's one area that Maria might be equal or better than Serena, that it's treated with fury by Serena fans who can't bear to hear that she might not be the best at something. Particularly when it's a comparison to hear and Maria.

Because the area you wanna pick as Maria being greater at than Serena just ain't true.

Chrissie-fan
Nov 19th, 2012, 08:36 PM
" #1 Victoria Azarenka
Strengths:
- Currently the best returner in the game "



I have heard this said about Sharapova also.

Serena IMO is the best returner in the game today

All three have a great return of serve, but I admit that whenever I hear the words "return of serve" in the context of womens tennis that the first name that comes to my mind is Victoria Azarenka's. That girl definitely has a wicked return of serve. Serena has as well of course, but it really stands out in Vika's game as her main weapon, at least for me. It's like when I hear the word "service" I think of Serena, or "drop shot" - Radwanska for that matter. :)

DevilishAttitude
Nov 19th, 2012, 08:37 PM
Serena is better AND mentally tougher than Maria. :wavey:




And in what fantasyland you decided that Maria is tougher mentally than Serena?! That's the thing that puzzles me. Maria is KNOWN for folding like a cheap tent against any decent opponent. Whereas Serena has come back many many times against world class opponents like Juju, Vee, etc.. :shrug:



Because the area you wanna pick as Maria being greater at than Serena just ain't true.

Please give examples of matches where Maria has folded like a cheap tent against a decent opponent?

bandabou
Nov 19th, 2012, 08:39 PM
Please give examples of matches where Maria has folded like a cheap tent against a decent opponent?

And you give me one when Serena had mental breakdown.

for Masha..'12 oz open. 2-0 30-0 up, only wins one more game..

DevilishAttitude
Nov 19th, 2012, 08:46 PM
And you give me one when Serena had mental breakdown.

for Masha..'12 oz open. 2-0 30-0 up, only wins one more game..

She was outplayed by Azarenka that day. And Razzano at the French.

Anyways I'm not arguing about this any further as we aren't going to agree.

MrProdigy555
Nov 19th, 2012, 08:50 PM
One that isn't an anomaly, please. :lol:

DevilishAttitude
Nov 19th, 2012, 08:54 PM
Stosur US Open 2011.

Chrissie-fan
Nov 19th, 2012, 08:56 PM
for Masha..'12 oz open. 2-0 30-0 up, only wins one more game..
But was that a mental breakdown? I think that Azarenka was just the better player that day. Better serve, better return, better groundstrokes, better movement..... Not every bad day at the office is necessarily the result of a mental breakdown.

But ok, there have no doubt been occasions when she (OR Serena for that matter) has lost the plot, the're human after all and not machines, but any sensible person will admit that they are two of the toughest cookies in the game, although perhaps in slightly different ways. Serena will for example rarely choke when serving for a match whereas Maria might DF. Maria's mental strenght consists to a large degree of the fact that she doesn't dwell on her mistakes. She may fuck up in a certain point or even a game, but she closes that chapter in her mind and is twice as competitive in the next game whereas many others can't put it out of their minds and continue to struggle.

bandabou
Nov 19th, 2012, 09:13 PM
Stosur US Open 2011.

If you're gonna list this one, you might just well add '04 Wimby too, no?! :shrug:

Nabalonge
Nov 19th, 2012, 09:18 PM
Do you also like Ferrer?


I do. I branched out more in the ATP and I noticed David more this year than any other. I appreciate his fight and what he brings in each and every match. He uses all that he has to the fullest of his abilities.

NashaP
Nov 19th, 2012, 09:21 PM
If you're gonna list this one, you might just well add '04 Wimby too, no?! :shrug:

Serena lost because she was out-played boo boo, Maria was doing everything better that day.

Maria lost the australian open final because azarenka was at her peak while Maria was at 10 percent, missing every shot. Maria rarely loses matches based on a letdown of her mental fortitude

bandabou
Nov 19th, 2012, 09:22 PM
But was that a mental breakdown? I think that Azarenka was just the better player that day. Better serve, better return, better groundstrokes, better movement..... Not every bad day at the office is necessarily the result of a mental breakdown.

But ok, there have no doubt been occasions when she (OR Serena for that matter) has lost the plot, the're human after all and not machines, but any sensible person will admit that they are two of the toughest cookies in the game, although perhaps in slightly different ways. Serena will for example rarely choke when serving for a match whereas Maria might DF. Maria's mental strenght consists to a large degree of the fact that she doesn't dwell on her mistakes. She may fuck up in a certain point or even a game, but she closes that chapter in her mind and is twice as competitive in the next game whereas many others can't put it out of their minds and continue to struggle.

So Masha's mental strength is like Vika's game...consistent but can't match the real toughies when they're at their best?! Hmmm..interesting way of looking at it.

bandabou
Nov 19th, 2012, 09:23 PM
Serena lost because she was out-played boo boo, Maria was doing everything better that day.

Maria lost the australian open final because azarenka was at her peak while Maria was at 10 percent, missing every shot. Maria rarely loses matches based on a letdown of her mental fortitude

:lol: If you say so..

NashaP
Nov 19th, 2012, 09:25 PM
:lol: If you say so..

Aren't you the same poster that said Serena wasn't the favorite for 2012 French open but "one of the many favorites"? :lol:

Ana'sProcess
Nov 19th, 2012, 09:40 PM
#1 V Azarenka
strengths: mentally strong, powerfull game, persistent
weaknesses: this year was probably the best from her, I don't think she will keep that level in the future because she already seems to satisfied with her game

#2 M Sharapova
strengths: strong shots, height, mentally unbeatable when the serve is well
weaknesses: mentally weak when the serve is bad

#3 S Williams

strengths: Herself, the most complete player of all times
weaknesses: Clay only

#4 A Radwanska

strengths: Mentally strong, excellent fitness, runner
weaknesses: Will not be able to beat powerfull players in a GS semifinals or finals due to her defensive game

#5 A Kerber

strengths: newcomer in the top, still very motivated and has great shots
weaknesses: doesn't seem like a player who is able to keep top form for a long time, or she will do some great job in 2013 and win Premiers or even GS, or she will be out of top 10 by the end of the season

#6 S Errani

strengths: great fitness, has catch a momentum in her favour after RG 2012 final
weaknesses: seems like her game will be fine as long as she remembers that great 2 weeks in Paris, and after that...I don't know, something is missing in her game and I don't know what. My opinion is that she will not be in top 10 anymore after RG 2013.

#7 N Li

strengths: persistent player, seemed like one of the top contenders all the time in 2012
weaknesses: mentally never was on a level that matches her ranking on WTA list

#8 P Kvitova

strengths: great tennis, very talented, powerfull game
weaknesses: I am wondering if she is aware of how great she can be, does she believe in that enough?

#9 S Stosur

strengths: her tennis is always in a level that is enough to be in top 10 and reach quarterfinals at big events
weaknesses: after winning US open 2011, seems like she is not that persistent player anymore, like she has lost the aura of the champion

#10 C Wozniacki

strengths: runner, persistent, looks like someone who works hard everyday. She is motivated to make those who don't believe she will win GS shut up, and I think she has more chances to do that than Radwanska, simply because she works very hard, and people made her angry...
weaknesses: she has to become much more offensive player

RVD
Nov 19th, 2012, 09:42 PM
Serena is better than Maria off clay this can't be contested.
But on clay, Maria is miles ahead of her as well.So you're saying that if Maria were to play Serena on clay, Maria is the guaranteed winner? :unsure:

I wonder how many other tennis fans believe this?

And btw, when did Maria defeat Serena on clay?
My memory is foggy on this.

MrProdigy555
Nov 19th, 2012, 09:42 PM
Aren't you the same poster that said Serena wasn't the favorite for 2012 French open but "one of the many favorites"? :lol:
What is funny about that? It was true. :unsure:

Chrissie-fan
Nov 19th, 2012, 09:44 PM
So Masha's mental strength is like Vika's game...consistent but can't match the real toughies when they're at their best?! Hmmm..interesting way of looking at it.
That's not what I said, but I guess there's no point in me discussing the matter any further since no matter how much I praise Serena and admit that she's the better player it's never enough and you can't resist putting down Sharapova in return. Makes no difference to me, I know how it goes, but makes no sense for me to reply on that basis either. ;)

NashaP
Nov 19th, 2012, 09:45 PM
What is funny about that? It was true. :unsure:

I can't.......

you and the rest of your posse are truly delusional

MrProdigy555
Nov 19th, 2012, 09:51 PM
Stosur US Open 2011.
Serena can't win them all. That wasn't about her mentally going away.

Miss Atomic Bomb
Nov 19th, 2012, 09:53 PM
Some Maria fans are still arguing about her being mentally stronger than Serena? Talk about watching too much Mary Carillon.. Fucking delusional

You are bringing matches Serena has lost within one year of her comeback? Shall we bring up all the matches that Maria has lost I am the two years after her comeback?

Next they will be saying she has more intensity than peak Seles, better forehand than peak graf, better backhand than peak Venus and is a better volleyed than Navratilova :lol:

As my sis Frenchie would've said - a creampie mess

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liuxuan
Nov 19th, 2012, 10:40 PM
Serena

strengths: 1st serve, 2nd serve, forehand, backhand, power of shot, EARLY RACQUET PREPARATION especially on the backhand side, speed of foot (not footwork), mental fortitude, will to win, ability to add spin to reign in errors when a few crop up, willingness to move in off a short ball

Weakness: "lucky shots"

she said it herself :devil:

rjd1111
Nov 20th, 2012, 12:26 AM
So you're saying that if Maria were to play Serena on clay, Maria is the guaranteed winner? :unsure:

I wonder how many other tennis fans believe this?

And btw, when did Maria defeat Serena on clay?
My memory is foggy on this.



Its foggy in everybodies mind. Cause it never happened

But Serena has beaten Maria on clay

RVD
Nov 20th, 2012, 04:56 AM
Some Maria fans are still arguing about her being mentally stronger than Serena? Talk about watching too much Mary Carillon.. Fucking delusional

You are bringing matches Serena has lost within one year of her comeback? Shall we bring up all the matches that Maria has lost I am the two years after her comeback?

Next they will be saying she has more intensity than peak Seles, better forehand than peak graf, better backhand than peak Venus and is a better volleyed than Navratilova :lol:

As my sis Frenchie would've said - a creampie mess

Sent from my Galaxy Note II using VerticalSports.Com App:lol::lol::worship:Serena

strengths: 1st serve, 2nd serve, forehand, backhand, power of shot, EARLY RACQUET PREPARATION especially on the backhand side, speed of foot (not footwork), mental fortitude, will to win, ability to add spin to reign in errors when a few crop up, willingness to move in off a short ball

Weakness: "lucky shots"

she said it herself :devil::bounce: LOVES THIS!!:bounce::cool:

RVD
Nov 20th, 2012, 04:59 AM
Its foggy in everybodies mind. Cause it never happened

But Serena has beaten Maria on clayThaaat's what-I-thought.
Serena-Biters are just so...:facepalm: *sigh*

bandabou
Nov 20th, 2012, 06:11 AM
That's not what I said, but I guess there's no point in me discussing the matter any further since no matter how much I praise Serena and admit that she's the better player it's never enough and you can't resist putting down Sharapova in return. Makes no difference to me, I know how it goes, but makes no sense for me to reply on that basis either. ;)

Not putting Maria down..I just don't think she's mentally tougher than Serena. :shrug:
Devilishattitude is making Serena look like she's some Vera Zvonareva or something.

doomsday
Nov 20th, 2012, 06:44 AM
So you're saying that if Maria were to play Serena on clay, Maria is the guaranteed winner? :unsure:

I wonder how many other tennis fans believe this?

And btw, when did Maria defeat Serena on clay?
My memory is foggy on this.

I'm pretty sure that's not what I said.
Just because of the matchup issue I believe that Serena would give Maria a lot of trouble on clay, but I also think that Serena's strengths would be not as effective as they are on the other surfaces (serve,ROS, power off the ground).

Anyway, this is just a matchup vs Serena. Maria basically has to worry only about 2 or 3 players on the red clay while Serena need to avoid almost every player in the top 20 w/o mentioning the likes of Razzano who can create an upset over her.:lol:

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bandabou
Nov 20th, 2012, 07:16 AM
I'm pretty sure that's not what I said.
Just because of the matchup issue I believe that Serena would give Maria a lot of trouble on clay, but I also think that Serena's strengths would be not as effective as they are on the other surfaces (serve,ROS, power off the ground).

Anyway, this is just a matchup vs Serena. Maria basically has to worry only about 2 or 3 players on the red clay while Serena need to avoid almost every player in the top 20 w/o mentioning the likes of Razzano who can create an upset over her.:lol:

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:lol: You sure can talk for being fan of a player with barely 4 majors. I give you that...:lol:

Besides when your fav has lost to Oudin, you sure ain't gonna talk about Serena losing to razzanno.

NashaMasha
Nov 20th, 2012, 07:21 AM
:lol:

Besides when your fav has lost to Oudin, you sure ain't gonna talk about Serena losing to razzanno.


he won't speak about Razanno , he will about Sybille Bammer, Srebotnik and Jill Craybas

bandabou
Nov 20th, 2012, 07:33 AM
he won't speak about Razanno , he will about Sybille Bammer, Srebotnik and Jill Craybas

Lisicki, Dulko, Alla Kudryasetva ( ever heard of her again? :lol: )

NashaMasha
Nov 20th, 2012, 07:37 AM
Lisicki, Dulko, Alla Kudryasetva ( ever heard of her again? :lol: )

all players had bad days or matches played injured or after 0 match practice etc. It's true for all players including Serena , Sharapova etc

And Lisicki is a top player on grass , don't include her in this list

doomsday
Nov 20th, 2012, 07:42 AM
Edit

doomsday
Nov 20th, 2012, 07:42 AM
:lol: You sure can talk for being fan of a player with barely 4 majors. I give you that...:lol:

Besides when your fav has lost to Oudin, you sure ain't gonna talk about Serena losing to razzanno.

:lol: he asked me a question, it's not my fault if you can't handle the truth.

Maria may have lost Oudin but it was back in 2009.
At this very moment, noone of this calibre will upset her IMO she lost against good players those last years and even this year.
Serena's loss to Razzano will always remain the most WTF loss of the century, I know it's hard to deal with but you can still confort with the rest of her season who really was awesome.


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bandabou
Nov 20th, 2012, 08:02 AM
:lol: he asked me a question, it's not my fault if you can't handle the truth.

Maria may have lost Oudin but it was back in 2009.
At this very moment, noone of this calibre will upset her IMO she lost against good players those last years and even this year.
Serena's loss to Razzano will always remain the most WTF loss of the century, I know it's hard to deal with but you can still contort with the rest of her season who really was awesome.


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It was back in '09, huh?! :lol:
And 3 years from now, the Razzano loss is gonna be history too then, soo...:shrug:

And besides: 'noone of this calibre will upset her.' and you think that wouldn't hold true for Serena?! :lol:

doomsday
Nov 20th, 2012, 09:29 AM
It was back in '09, huh?! :lol:
And 3 years from now, the Razzano loss is gonna be history too then, soo...:shrug:

And besides: 'noone of this calibre will upset her.' and you think that wouldn't hold true for Serena?! :lol:

At the FO, I don't really know that last loss really shoked me but she bounced pretty damn well.
Now we'll see if she can do the same at the French.


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bandabou
Nov 20th, 2012, 10:02 AM
At the FO, I don't really know that last loss really shoked me but she bounced pretty damn well.
Now we'll see if she can do the same at the French.


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She ain't losing 1r again. Don't know about winning. That's trickier and she's to put in the work first.

MrProdigy555
Nov 20th, 2012, 12:36 PM
Lisicki...top player....anywhere is :lol::happy:

Just because you have a big serve does not mean you're a top player or a top player on grass. Hradecka, Petrova, Stosur, etc. Sharapova is just slow as dirt and Lisicki likes trying to tap that ass for some reason.

RVD
Nov 20th, 2012, 06:44 PM
I'm pretty sure that's not what I said.
Just because of the matchup issue I believe that Serena would give Maria a lot of trouble on clay, but I also think that Serena's strengths would be not as effective as they are on the other surfaces (serve,ROS, power off the ground).

Anyway, this is just a matchup vs Serena. Maria basically has to worry only about 2 or 3 players on the red clay while Serena need to avoid almost every player in the top 20 w/o mentioning the likes of Razzano who can create an upset over her.:lol:

Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App (http://www.verticalsports.com/mobile)So in other words, Serena has a shot at the title?
Good enough for me.

However, I'm not so sure that her game would now allow her to lose so easily to these "20" you mentioned, since she will be practicing with Patrick on fine tuning her clay court techniques.
Do you honestly believe that Serena will enter FO unprepared with such great resources at her disposal? I understand that you aren't a Serena fan, but surely you would not slight her to this degree. :)

doomsday
Nov 20th, 2012, 07:38 PM
So in other words, Serena has a shot at the title?
Good enough for me.

However, I'm not so sure that her game would now allow her to lose so easily to these "20" you mentioned, since she will be practicing with Patrick on fine tuning her clay court techniques.
Do you honestly believe that Serena will enter FO unprepared with such great resources at her disposal? I understand that you aren't a Serena fan, but surely you would not slight her to this degree. :)

Yes she has a shot to the title, I believe she is among the 5 contenders to win it but I also believe that a serious preparation on RED CLAY should be made to win the FO again.
No more Charleston or Madrid that's for sure.



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DevilishAttitude
Nov 20th, 2012, 08:02 PM
If you're gonna list this one, you might just well add '04 Wimby too, no?! :shrug:

Serena was outplayed that day. Maria was just too good.

That's not what I said, but I guess there's no point in me discussing the matter any further since no matter how much I praise Serena and admit that she's the better player it's never enough and you can't resist putting down Sharapova in return. Makes no difference to me, I know how it goes, but makes no sense for me to reply on that basis either. ;)

Exactly. I find it amazing just how Serena fans will simply not give Maria any credit whatsoever. They just ramble on about how she's worse than Serena, which is something no-one is actually disputing. Maria at her best is probably the best of the rest on the WTA, she can't be as bad as they are making her out to be, right?

Serena can't win them all. That wasn't about her mentally going away.

Oh there were definitely other factors that day. She was given the raw end of the deal schedule-wise, she was rusty in the biggest matches after having only come back three months before and her form had been dipping in that tournament after she had beaten Azarenka. And Stosur was on song that day and really took it to Serena and made her game look very awkward.

But that scream of come-on before her forehand had even touched the court said it all about Serena mentally that day. She was rattled, tired and not at her best in any department. She didn't need to shout, it would have been impossible for Stosur to get back. And yet she let a moment of madness descend and really exploded (wrongly) at a decision which was correct. That is what happens to Serena on the very rare occasions when she is being outplayed these days. To make her explode mentally though, is extremely difficult to almost impossible, as she is pretty much in control of the vast majority of her matches.

Serena

strengths: 1st serve, 2nd serve, forehand, backhand, power of shot, EARLY RACQUET PREPARATION especially on the backhand side, speed of foot (not footwork), mental fortitude, will to win, ability to add spin to reign in errors when a few crop up, willingness to move in off a short ball

Weakness: "lucky shots"

she said it herself :devil:

That symbolises the problem. Serena fans won't accept she has any flaws. Even if she is the best, she isn't invincible, and there is no such thing as the perfect tennis player.

Not putting Maria down..I just don't think she's mentally tougher than Serena. :shrug:
Devilishattitude is making Serena look like she's some Vera Zvonareva or something.

:lol: Yeahh, I haven't praised Serena or her game at all in this thread, I've just been busy comparing her to Zvonareva.

As for the clay discussion, if there is ever going to be a surface when Maria has a chance versus Serena, it probably is red clay. Her record on it is superior to Serena's. Serena hasn't beaten a Top 10 player on red clay since 2003 and hasn't reached a final on it since 2002, whereas Maria has beaten nine Top 10 players on it and won five tournaments on red clay since then.

But, Maria hasn't taken a set off Serena since 2008, and even if her record is better on red clay, she still faces huge match-up issues. It would still be a massive task for her.

bandabou
Nov 20th, 2012, 09:39 PM
Serena was outplayed that day. Maria was just too good.


And you want people to take you seriously?! :lol:

Exactly. I find it amazing just how Serena fans will simply not give Maria any credit whatsoever. They just ramble on about how she's worse than Serena, which is something no-one is actually disputing. Maria at her best is probably the best of the rest on the WTA, she can't be as bad as they are making her out to be, right?

Maria isn't mentally tougher than Serena. She probably is second best..but Serena is no.1. It's you that keeps rambling without making any sense.

Oh there were definitely other factors that day. She was given the raw end of the deal schedule-wise, she was rusty in the biggest matches after having only come back three months before and her form had been dipping in that tournament after she had beaten Azarenka. And Stosur was on song that day and really took it to Serena and made her game look very awkward.

But that scream of come-on before her forehand had even touched the court said it all about Serena mentally that day. She was rattled, tired and not at her best in any department. She didn't need to shout, it would have been impossible for Stosur to get back. And yet she let a moment of madness descend and really exploded (wrongly) at a decision which was correct. That is what happens to Serena on the very rare occasions when she is being outplayed these days. To make her explode mentally though, is extremely difficult to almost impossible, as she is pretty much in control of the vast majority of her matches.

are you for real?! Is this is your argument for claiming that Serena isn't mentally tough?! :lol: OMG..where does these people keep coming from?! :facepalm:

That symbolises the problem. Serena fans won't accept she has any flaws. Even if she is the best, she isn't invincible, and there is no such thing as the perfect tennis player.

And when did we ever said so?! :shrug: You're the one who wanna make Maria the perfect one.

:lol: Yeahh, I haven't praised Serena or her game at all in this thread, I've just been busy comparing her to Zvonareva.


As for the clay discussion, if there is ever going to be a surface when Maria has a chance versus Serena, it probably is red clay. Her record on it is superior to Serena's. Serena hasn't beaten a Top 10 player on red clay since 2003 and hasn't reached a final on it since 2002, whereas Maria has beaten nine Top 10 players on it and won five tournaments on red clay since then.

But, Maria hasn't taken a set off Serena since 2008, and even if her record is better on red clay, she still faces huge match-up issues. It would still be a massive task for her.

Now this is something we agree on. ;)

RVD
Nov 20th, 2012, 10:18 PM
Yes she has a shot to the title, I believe she is among the 5 contenders to win it but I also believe that a serious preparation on RED CLAY should be made to win the FO again.
No more Charleston or Madrid that's for sure.



Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App (http://www.verticalsports.com/mobile)I'm not so sure skipping those two tourneys would serve her cause. Plus, she has points to protect.
However, I do believe that a more vigorous red clay preparation is needed. And she can do that at the Mouratoglou Academy.

The one thing above all others that I admire about Serena, is her knowledge of 'self'.
For as long as I've followed her career, she has always known what to do in order to defeat each and every opponent who's defeated her, made the correct rehabilitation choices, prepared her schedule to fit her body's requirements, and taken time to enjoy and relax on her own terms.
In other words, her decisions as a pro athlete has been stellar.
We have plenty of time with which to evaluate her progress going in to the FO though.
And this year already proves to be more exciting than the last 8 for me.
I might even watch this tournament this year.

Cajka
Nov 20th, 2012, 10:32 PM
I'm not so sure skipping those two tourneys would serve her cause. Plus, she has points to protect.
However, I do believe that a more vigorous red clay preparation is needed. And she can do that at the Mouratoglou Academy.


There's no much she can do about that schedule. She can play Stuttgart instead of Charleston, but it's indoors, so it's not a perfect preparation, especially knowing how different weather conditions can be in Paris during those two weeks. The courts in Madrid, blue or red, will always play faster because of an elevation, so it's no the best preparation neither. But she has to play Madrid because it's PM. The ideal preparation for her could be playing Charleston/Stuttgart and Rome. But it's impossible since Madrid is PM and not Rome. :o

RVD
Nov 20th, 2012, 10:36 PM
Why do posters always pretend that Serena fans believe her to be perfect or invincible?

Just where did this myth originate?
Or maybe Serena detractors use this myth to avoid discussing her dominance over their faves.

Sharapova is certainly mentally strong with players that she knows she can defeat. Which is a great many.
However, the true test is determined through contesting with an opponent that you struggle with, and that's Serena (for Sharapova).
Sharapova often has this nervous aura about her when facing Serena. This was not always so, of course. Losing at the 2007 AO against a well publicized underdog (Serena), seemed to have caused the most damage to Maria's mental game when facing Serena, IMHO.
**Btw, I'm watching that match again as I post this** ;)

As a Serena fan, I can honestly admit that Serena enters matches nervous as well.
And I can easily see it at times.
Though in 2012, these moments were fewer in the second half of the season.
Still, I believe that it's how you focus those nerves that determine mental strength.
And my further belief is that champions enter a competition with that in mind.

RVD
Nov 20th, 2012, 10:52 PM
There's no much she can do about that schedule. She can play Stuttgart instead of Charleston, but it's indoors, so it's not a perfect preparation, especially knowing how different weather conditions can be in Paris during those two weeks. The courts in Madrid, blue or red, will always play faster because of an elevation, so it's no the best preparation neither. But she has to play Madrid because it's PM. The ideal preparation for her could be playing Charleston/Stuttgart and Rome. But it's impossible since Madrid is PM and not Rome. :oCompletely agree.
Still, Serena has shown that she can go into a slam with little to no 'match' preparation.
And history has shown that she can get away with academy level practice for her preparation.
Also, she likely will not enter the FO returning with a lower back injury this year (2012 ROME).
*no excuses intended*
Still, I'm not saying that this assumed schedule is the best path, mind you. Just that in the past, it's served her quite well.

I fully expect Serena to play both Charleston or Madrid. And though I haven't seen her 2013 schedule yet, as a fan, I know that she likes to keep things constant.
You may well be correct in that Charleston/Stuttgart would be a better replacement, btw.
Or she might decide to play a larger number of tournaments prior to the FO for the sake of accumulating a few more ranking points. We'll know soon enough.

Cajka
Nov 20th, 2012, 11:04 PM
Completely agree.
Still, Serena has shown that she can go into a slam with little to no 'match' preparation.
And history has shown that she can get away with academy level practice for her preparation.
Also, she likely will not enter the FO returning with a lower back injury this year (2012 ROME).
*no excuses intended*
Still, I'm not saying that this assumed schedule is the best path, mind you. Just that in the past, it's served her quite well.


I agree, but clay is really specific, so she might need a bit more of preparation, playing in different conditions mostly. Depending on weather, surface speed and the bounce vary more than on any other surface. When it's rainy and cold, it will be slow the bounce will be low, while on a sunny and hot day it's the opposite, on a windy day, the wind will blow dust into your face etc. During those two weeks you can get an impression that you played on few different surfaces. I know that you, and (I hope) most of TF members know that all very well, but we all tend to overlook it and say that RG is a shitty slam with too many "fluke" winners, while they completely overlook the influence of weather conditions, which could be a reason for the surprise winners and finalists we've had over the years. For example, Maria struggled so much in R4 this year because of heavy conditions, it gave me a huge scare.

RVD
Nov 20th, 2012, 11:12 PM
I agree, but clay is really specific, so she might need a bit more of preparation, playing in different conditions mostly. Depending on weather, surface speed and the bounce vary more than on any other surface. When it's rainy and cold, it will be slow the bounce will be low, while on a sunny and hot day it's the opposite, on a windy day, the wind will blow dust into your face etc. During those two weeks you can get an impression that you played on few different surfaces. I know that you, and (I hope) most of TF members know that all very well, but we all tend to overlook it and say that RG is a shitty slam with too many "fluke" winners, while they completely overlook the influence of weather conditions, which could be a reason for the surprise winners and finalist we've had over the years. For example, Maria struggled so much in R4 this year because of heavy conditions, it gave me a scare.Agree on all points Cajka.
Especially the dynamic conditions when playing on clay.

TBO, I hate clay because of the high possibility of injury players face, based precisely on shifting conditions you posted. If the courts are not maintained regularly, or if a player's foot is 'set' when they turn (or hits a clump of dirt just right), the injuries can be career-ending.
It's one other reason why I rarely watch this tournament when Serena played in the past.
Still, a champion finds a way. And we are blessed with some great players despite what most fans believe. :)

DevilishAttitude
Nov 21st, 2012, 07:36 PM
And you want people to take you seriously?! :lol:

Serena wasn't at her best that day by any stretch. She was tired from that very tough SF against Mauresmo and wasn't in the same form in 2004 as previous years, but Sharapova was fearless and completely took it to her. Serena was bested that day, wasn't to do with her folding mentally.

Maria isn't mentally tougher than Serena. She probably is second best..but Serena is no.1. It's you that keeps rambling without making any sense.

We're never going to agree on this. You have your opinion, I have mine.

are you for real?! Is this is your argument for claiming that Serena isn't mentally tough?! :lol: OMG..where does these people keep coming from?! :facepalm:

You think that the match against Stosur in the US Open was an example of Serena at her best mentally?!

And when did we ever said so?! :shrug: You're the one who wanna make Maria the perfect one.

:lol: Yeahh, I haven't praised Serena or her game at all in this thread, I've just been busy comparing her to Zvonareva.

Considering I have stated that Maria has far more weaknesses than Serena and given examples as to why that's the case I'm at a loss at how you can say that I'm trying to make her the "perfect one"

Now this is something we agree on. ;)

Hurrah! ;)

bandabou
Nov 22nd, 2012, 10:05 AM
Serena wasn't at her best that day by any stretch. She was tired from that very tough SF against Mauresmo and wasn't in the same form in 2004 as previous years, but Sharapova was fearless and completely took it to her. Serena was bested that day, wasn't to do with her folding mentally.

Right, right...and that wouldn't apply to Stosur's win over Serena?! Whom has already beaten Serena in a major before, who always plays her tough to begin with?! :shrug:

:lol: I know you wanna make Masha's win bigger than it is, but...:lol:

We're never going to agree on this. You have your opinion, I have mine.
Nope..if you're gonna insist that Maria's tougher mentally than Serena, then no..not gonna agree on that one.


You think that the match against Stosur in the US Open was an example of Serena at her best mentally?!

And '04 Wimbledon was Serena at her best?! :shrug:



Considering I have stated that Maria has far more weaknesses than Serena and given examples as to why that's the case I'm at a loss at how you can say that I'm trying to make her the "perfect one"

:lol: Nahh..you didn't say that. You said..when Serena wins it's because she's better, when she loses is because she wasn't mentally tough enough/got rattled/etc, etc...eventhough there's countless indications of Serena winning despite not being her best..but cool.

Then you say.Masha wins ONLY because she's the mentally strongest out there. What kind of non-sense is that?! :lol:

Hurrah! ;)

:bounce:

stromatolite
Nov 22nd, 2012, 10:12 AM
What a surprise, another thread that started out promisingly is derailed into a Serena vs Masha pissing contest. Seriously, hasn't this debate been done to death on a thousand threads already.:rolleyes:

Mods, this is killing TF for fans of other players more than anything else, do something about it, please?

bandabou
Nov 22nd, 2012, 10:28 AM
What a surprise, another thread that started out promisingly is derailed into a Serena vs Masha pissing contest. Seriously, hasn't this debate been done to death on a thousand threads already.:rolleyes:

Mods, this is killing TF for fans of other players more than anything else, do something about it, please?

Why call it pissing contest? :shrug:

stromatolite
Nov 22nd, 2012, 10:58 AM
Why call it pissing contest? :shrug:

I really don't care what you call it, for people who are neither fans nor rabid haters of either player it's mind-numbingly boring, and is sytematically killing potentially interesting threads.

Dominic
Nov 22nd, 2012, 12:05 PM
What a surprise, another thread that started out promisingly is derailed into a Serena vs Masha pissing contest. Seriously, hasn't this debate been done to death on a thousand threads already.:rolleyes:

Mods, this is killing TF for fans of other players more than anything else, do something about it, please?

I have to agree

bandabou
Nov 22nd, 2012, 12:09 PM
I really don't care what you call it, for people who are neither fans nor rabid haters of either player it's mind-numbingly boring, and is sytematically killing potentially interesting threads.

It isn't even a discussion. Just pointed something out.
But I see you've more to add..why don't you make a contribution to the thread, then?! :shrug:

stromatolite
Nov 22nd, 2012, 01:49 PM
It isn't even a discussion. Just pointed something out.
But I see you've more to add..why don't you make a contribution to the thread, then?! :shrug:

I've was going to when it first opened, but before I got the chance it was already derailed. I think the OP and several others made some interesting points, most of which I agree with.

The interesting thing is to ask to what extent the strong points can compensate for weak ones, and to what extent weaknesses can be reduced or eliminated through training. Of the top group of players, I'd say that Vika has the best prospects of reducing her weaknesses, mainly by improving her serve. I can't see any reason why she can't develop a substantially better serve than she currently has. Given the fact that she's so hard to beat with such a weak serve you have to wonder how good she could be with a good serve.

I also think Aga's game is still improving, and despite lacking any great power she is capable of hitting quite a few winners. In fact I think for her the most scope for improvement is in her tactics: I think she still sometimes tries to outfox her opponents when she could more easily just go for quick winners. And although she's never going to have a huge serve, it must be possible for her to get a bit more potency into her second serve than she currently has.

The challenge for Angie is to develop a bit more of a plan B to her game now that her opponents have had the time to work out her counterpunching game and come up with tactics to deal with it.

I think Sara already does an amazing job given her stature and relative lack of power. She has a beautiful game and can make life difficult for most opponents when conditions suit her (and even sometimes when they don't), but I really don't see what she can do against hard-hitters other than what she is already doing.

It goes without saying that Petra is currently underachieving. Even if you accept that she was maybe a little overhyped last year, I think it's clear that she has more to her game than she's shown this year. As long as she's motivated and patient enough she should be able to regain her spot in the top 2-3 at some point.

For both Sam and Na the main limitations are mental, and given their age it may be unrealistic to expect any great turnaround in their games, although I think there are signs that both of them are very capable of being mentally tough when they put their minds to it. I Na's case the problem has been a disturbing tendency to effectively give up when the chips are down, but I have the impression that she has shown a bit more fight lately. In Sam's case it's not that she gives up as such, as that she lacks the kind of killer instinct that allows most top players to dominate lower ranked players.

Finally, Caro needs to figure out how to add some judicious attacking play to allow her to get more out of her excellent defensive game. Contrary to what a lot of her critics claim, she does have a decent attacking game, as she showed in the Moscow final, but she often has trouble finding the right balance between attack and defense, and when in doubt she still tends to fall back too much on the tried and trusted defense. She needs to take more risks.

RVD
Nov 22nd, 2012, 04:54 PM
What a surprise, another thread that started out promisingly is derailed into a Serena vs Masha pissing contest. Seriously, hasn't this debate been done to death on a thousand threads already.:rolleyes:

Mods, this is killing TF for fans of other players more than anything else, do something about it, please?The debate was civil. :scratch:
And of course a discussion about "strengths" and "weaknesses" will include Serena.
She's one of the oldest and top WTA players around.
And players who share the top ranking positions will invariably be compared to her. :shrug:
Even when she didn't occupy the top 10 ranks, she was always being discussed and used as
the WTA measuring stick.
Why the sudden indignation? :confused:

TF.com fans are a very strange and illogical brood.

RVD
Nov 22nd, 2012, 04:56 PM
It isn't even a discussion. Just pointed something out.
But I see you've more to add..why don't you make a contribution to the thread, then?! :shrug:Nice justification bandabou.
People sure are odd around here.

TennisPhan
Nov 22nd, 2012, 05:17 PM
trying to find a top 10 list of most dominant seasons by female tennis players (OPEN ERA), but can't find one. Can someone create a new topic for this? or show me the link if it already exists. I'm sure Graf owns the #1 spot, but it would be interesting to see what the rest of the top 10 would look like.

thx

stromatolite
Nov 22nd, 2012, 05:19 PM
The debate was civil. :scratch:
And of course a discussion about "strengths" and "weaknesses" will include Serena.
She's one of the oldest and top WTA players around.
And players who share the top ranking positions will invariably be compared to her. :shrug:
Even when she didn't occupy the top 10 ranks, she was always being discussed and used as
the WTA measuring stick.
Why the sudden indignation? :confused:

TF.com fans are a very strange and illogical brood.

I never said that the tone of the discussion wasn't civil. So was my response. I simply pointed out that yet another thread that was supposed to be quite general in nature had narrowed within the space of the first page to a discussion about these same two players.

Don't get me wrong, I have no objection to posts about Maria and Serena on this thread, after all, they are top 10 players. But when 10 out of 11 pages are devoted to a discussion of just these two players, then sorry, I think that's out of all proportion. I actually hoped you guys would see that yourselves after a while and back off, which is why I waited a long time before commenting, but it just went on and on and on.

The "sudden indignation" as you call it is about fans of the most popular players crowding out more general discussion on threads that are supposed to be (also) about other players. This happens ALL THE TIME, and it is extremely frustrating to see thread after thread that you expect to provide an interesting discussion fizzle out in an endless series of nitpicking posts that are only interesting to the five or six people doing most of the posting.

A massive proportion of TF threads are about one or both of these two players. And that's fine, that comes with the turf of being a popular player. But is it too much to ask for a little restraint when you post on threads that are not specifically about them?

RVD
Nov 22nd, 2012, 05:35 PM
I never said that the tone of the discussion wasn't civil. So was my response. I simply pointed out that yet another thread that was supposed to be quite general in nature had narrowed within the space of the first page to a discussion about these same two players.

Don't get me wrong, I have no objection to posts about Maria and Serena on this thread, after all, they are top 10 players. But when 10 out of 11 pages are devoted to a discussion of just these two players, then sorry, I think that's out of all proportion. I actually hoped you guys would see that yourselves after a while and back off, which is why I waited a long time before commenting, but it just went on and on and on.

The "sudden indignation" as you call it is about fans of the most popular players crowding out more general discussion on threads that are supposed to be (also) about other players. This happens ALL THE TIME, and it is extremely frustrating to see thread after thread that you expect to provide an interesting discussion fizzle out in an endless series of nitpicking posts that are only interesting to the five or six people doing most of the posting.

A massive proportion of TF threads are about one or both of these two players. And that's fine, that comes with the turf of being a popular player. But is it too much to ask for a little restraint when you post on threads that are not specifically about them?Your past posts have been enlightening and quite enjoyable, stromatolite.
But uncharacteristically, the selection of one phrase at the end of your previous post was a bit ... on the inaccurate side.

In essense I understand your point because there have been times when I've wondered why Serena fans must always contend with the plethora of illogical myths and stereotypical analysis thrown at out fav. Then I decided to just offer a counter-argument at every opportunity, since the nonsense will likely persist up until Serena retires.

Whether this is understood are not, Serena fans are true blue fans.
And if erroneous comparisons are being levied, of course we will attempt to correct these falsehoods.

So again...

How was this a "pissing contest"?
Debates are always contentious, regardless of the two players being compared.

bandabou
Nov 22nd, 2012, 06:04 PM
I never said that the tone of the discussion wasn't civil. So was my response. I simply pointed out that yet another thread that was supposed to be quite general in nature had narrowed within the space of the first page to a discussion about these same two players.

Don't get me wrong, I have no objection to posts about Maria and Serena on this thread, after all, they are top 10 players. But when 10 out of 11 pages are devoted to a discussion of just these two players, then sorry, I think that's out of all proportion. I actually hoped you guys would see that yourselves after a while and back off, which is why I waited a long time before commenting, but it just went on and on and on.

The "sudden indignation" as you call it is about fans of the most popular players crowding out more general discussion on threads that are supposed to be (also) about other players. This happens ALL THE TIME, and it is extremely frustrating to see thread after thread that you expect to provide an interesting discussion fizzle out in an endless series of nitpicking posts that are only interesting to the five or six people doing most of the posting.

A massive proportion of TF threads are about one or both of these two players. And that's fine, that comes with the turf of being a popular player. But is it too much to ask for a little restraint when you post on threads that are not specifically about them?

You know what I think..the only reason this Masha vs Serena-'discussion' would be bothering you this much is because you don't wanna hear that Serena is better than Masha in every aspect. :lol:

But hey it's cool. No problemos...the Serena-fans said what they had to say, so now we focus on the Errani's and Radwanska's of this world.

stromatolite
Nov 22nd, 2012, 06:11 PM
Your past posts have been enlightening and quite enjoyable, stromatolite.
But uncharacteristically, the selection of one phrase at the end of your previous post was a bit ... on the inaccurate side.

In essense I understand your point because there have been times when I've wondered why Serena fans must always contend with the plethora of illogical myths and stereotypical analysis thrown at out fav. Then I decided to just offer a counter-argument at every opportunity, since the nonsense will likely persist up until Serena retires.

Whether this is understood are not, Serena fans are true blue fans.
And if erroneous comparisons are being levied, of course we will attempt to correct these falsehoods.

So again...

How was this a "pissing contest"?
Debates are always contentious, regardless of the two players being compared.

Both you and bandabou seem to be making more of the "pissing contest" remark than I intended. Maybe it's just my foul mouth, but I don't think of that phrase as particularly offensive, but if you find it so I'm more than happy to retract it.

I take your point about the erroneous comparisons and your right to a rebuttal, but you do realise that the nonsense will continue whether or not you choose to rebut it? And even worse, that your rebuttals elicit further nonsense, because, rightly or wrongly, the opposing camp believes that they are also in the nonsense-rebutting business?

You know what I think..the only reason this Masha vs Serena-'discussion' would be bothering you this much is because you don't wanna hear that Serena is better than Masha in every aspect. :lol:

But hey it's cool. No problemos...the Serena-fans said what they had to say, so now we focus on the Errani's and Radwanska's of this world.

As so often with you bandabou I'm not sure whether you're taking the piss. You do realize that I'm a former card-carrying Masha-hater, who has gone into retirement not because my opinion of her changed, but because I got sick of getting into endless pointless fights with her fans?

Although I'm not a hard-core Serena fan, I do admire and generally like her, even though she annoys me sometimes when she misbehaves.

sweetpeas
Nov 22nd, 2012, 06:30 PM
If you're gonna list this one, you might just well add '04 Wimby too, no?!
Serena lost because she was out-played boo boo, Maria was doing everything better that day.



People never never never give Serena credit,Serena just came back from knee surgeon won Miami and got to the final of Wimbledon.But you never hear that do you? They never let you forget Maria won a slam ,after four yrs of shoulder surgeon!!!go figure...Different strokes i guess for different folks.:mad::o:devil::sad:

RVD
Nov 22nd, 2012, 06:49 PM
Both you and bandabou seem to be making more of the "pissing contest" remark than I intended. Maybe it's just my foul mouth, but I don't think of that phrase as particularly offensive, but if you find it so I'm more than happy to retract it.

I take your point about the erroneous comparisons and your right to a rebuttal, but you do realise that the nonsense will continue whether or not you choose to rebut it? And even worse, that your rebuttals elicit further nonsense, because, rightly or wrongly, the opposing camp believes that they are also in the nonsense-rebutting business?Thank you for the retraction. :)

And yes, I do realize that my rebuttals will likely be met with opposing rebuttals. However, to say nothing is even worse because then the perception is that the erroneous statements are correct. And honestly, I've taken the 'say nothing' approach for a couple of years on this board, and the stereotypes, myths, lies, etc...,became even more numerous and unbearable, with only a tiny handful of Serena fans rebutting the statements.
So remaining on the sideline solved nothing, and only stressed out my fellow Serena fans to boot.

I believe that as long as the debate is civil, discourse is fine...regardless of who and how many times Serena is compared to her constituents.
But that's just me.
That said, I'm open to alternatives methods with which to combat these ill-conceived comparisons, because as I stated earlier, it gets under my skin when her name is continuously brought up an infinite number of times as well by fans of her opponents.

As so often with you bandabou I'm not sure whether you're taking the piss. You do realize that I'm a former card-carrying Masha-hater, who has gone into retirement not because my opinion of her changed, but because I got sick of getting into endless pointless fights with her fans?

Although I'm not a hard-core Serena fan, I do admire and generally like her, even though she annoys me sometimes when she misbehaves.If I may offer a suggestion...

I often ignore the more ridiculous of claims posters make. And if a discussion does in fact turn into a real "pissing match", I ignore the conversation altogether and posts per the thread topic in an attempt to get the discussion back on track.

GOATdin0931
Nov 22nd, 2012, 06:51 PM
All the hate :oh:

RVD
Nov 22nd, 2012, 07:01 PM
All the hate :oh:http://th284.photobucket.com/albums/ll30/supersaputra/GIF/th_thThanksgivingSmiley.gifHAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL! http://th284.photobucket.com/albums/ll30/supersaputra/GIF/th_thThanksgivingSmiley.gif:wavey:

stromatolite
Nov 22nd, 2012, 07:08 PM
Thank you for the retraction. :)

And yes, I do realize that my rebuttals will likely be met with opposing rebuttals. However, to say nothing is even worse because then the perception is that the erroneous statements are correct. And honestly, I've taken the 'say nothing' approach for a couple of years on this board, and the stereotypes, myths, lies, etc...,became even more numerous and unbearable, with only a tiny handful of Serena fans rebutting the statements.
So remaining on the sideline solved nothing, and only stressed out my fellow Serena fans to boot.

I believe that as long as the debate is civil, discourse is fine...regardless of who and how many times Serena is compared to her constituents.
But that's just me.
That said, I'm open to alternatives methods with which to combat these ill-conceived comparisons, because as I stated earlier, it gets under my skin when her name is continuously brought up an infinite number of times as well by fans of her opponents.

If I may offer a suggestion...

I often ignore the more ridiculous of claims posters make. And if a discussion does in fact turn into a real "pissing match", I ignore the conversation altogether and posts per the thread topic in an attempt to get the discussion back on track.

Hard to argue with any of this.:)

If I have to quibble, the only thing would be that I don't think silence necessarily implies agreement. Sometimes it has the opposite effect, by denying opinions that should be self-evidently absurd the oxygen of attention. But you also said that you ignore ridiculous claims, so I'm pretty sure you understand that as well.

bandabou
Nov 22nd, 2012, 07:13 PM
Both you and bandabou seem to be making more of the "pissing contest" remark than I intended. Maybe it's just my foul mouth, but I don't think of that phrase as particularly offensive, but if you find it so I'm more than happy to retract it.

I take your point about the erroneous comparisons and your right to a rebuttal, but you do realise that the nonsense will continue whether or not you choose to rebut it? And even worse, that your rebuttals elicit further nonsense, because, rightly or wrongly, the opposing camp believes that they are also in the nonsense-rebutting business?



As so often with you bandabou I'm not sure whether you're taking the piss. You do realize that I'm a former card-carrying Masha-hater, who has gone into retirement not because my opinion of her changed, but because I got sick of getting into endless pointless fights with her fans?

Although I'm not a hard-core Serena fan, I do admire and generally like her, even though she annoys me sometimes when she misbehaves.

Duly noted...:lol:

doomsday
Nov 22nd, 2012, 07:47 PM
As so often with you bandabou I'm not sure whether you're taking the piss. You do realize that I'm a former card-carrying Masha-hater, who has gone into retirement not because my opinion of her changed, but because I got sick of getting into endless pointless fights with her fans.

Good boy, there are just some battles that you can't win. If only Willytards could listen to you, this place would be perfect.



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bandabou
Nov 22nd, 2012, 07:55 PM
Good boy, there are just some battles that you can't win. If only Willytards could listen to you, this place would be perfect.



Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App (http://www.verticalsports.com/mobile)

Stromalite ain't diehard..but ....:devil:

GOATdin0931
Nov 22nd, 2012, 08:31 PM
http://th284.photobucket.com/albums/ll30/supersaputra/GIF/th_thThanksgivingSmiley.gifHAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL! http://th284.photobucket.com/albums/ll30/supersaputra/GIF/th_thThanksgivingSmiley.gif:wavey:

:happy: :lol: :hug:

RVD
Nov 22nd, 2012, 10:49 PM
Hard to argue with any of this.:)

If I have to quibble, the only thing would be that I don't think silence necessarily implies agreement. Sometimes it has the opposite effect, by denying opinions that should be self-evidently absurd the oxygen of attention. But you also said that you ignore ridiculous claims, so I'm pretty sure you understand that as well.Absolutely.
I agree that at times, depending on the arguments, your suggestion (above) would certainly work, as I've taken that approach before. And still do. :hug:
At any rate, thank you for understanding. :cool:

RVD
Nov 22nd, 2012, 10:50 PM
Good boy, there are just some battles that you can't win. If only Willytards could listen to you, this place would be perfect.



Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App (http://www.verticalsports.com/mobile):lol: :lol:
And I forgive you too doomsday. :wavey:

Smitten
Nov 23rd, 2012, 03:14 AM
Martha stans are so fucking bitter.

MrProdigy555
Nov 23rd, 2012, 06:27 AM
Martha stans are so fucking bitter.
Always.

DevilishAttitude
Nov 25th, 2012, 01:50 PM
Right, right...and that wouldn't apply to Stosur's win over Serena?! Whom has already beaten Serena in a major before, who always plays her tough to begin with?! :shrug:

:lol: I know you wanna make Masha's win bigger than it is, but...:lol:

Stosur did play the match of her life against Serena, I've never disputed that. A slam is a slam in equal measure, so I'm not making her win "bigger" than Stosur's was.

Nope..if you're gonna insist that Maria's tougher mentally than Serena, then no..not gonna agree on that one.

Right.

And '04 Wimbledon was Serena at her best?! :shrug:

No, I've said she wasn't, but she didn't explode mentally in that match like she did against Stosur. I'm not sure what your point is?

:lol: Nahh..you didn't say that. You said..when Serena wins it's because she's better, when she loses is because she wasn't mentally tough enough/got rattled/etc, etc...eventhough there's countless indications of Serena winning despite not being her best..but cool.

Then you say.Masha wins ONLY because she's the mentally strongest out there. What kind of non-sense is that?! :lol:

Those comments are filled with words you have put in my mouth and don't even dignify a response.

What a surprise, another thread that started out promisingly is derailed into a Serena vs Masha pissing contest. Seriously, hasn't this debate been done to death on a thousand threads already.:rolleyes:

Mods, this is killing TF for fans of other players more than anything else, do something about it, please?

It's been like this between those sets of fans even before I joined here and that was in 2004. Some Serena fans will always feel angry that the media (in their opinion) pedalled Maria has the great white hope while viewing Serena has nothing more than a angry black woman and some Maria fans will never like the fact that Serena is the better player.

This board has always been like this and will never change. The moderators don't moderate anyway.

bandabou
Nov 25th, 2012, 02:50 PM
Stosur did play the match of her life against Serena, I've never disputed that. A slam is a slam in equal measure, so I'm not making her win "bigger" than Stosur's was.

so what are you blabbling about Serena losing because of some mental lapse?!

Right.
Damned right.



No, I've said she wasn't, but she didn't explode mentally in that match like she did against Stosur. I'm not sure what your point is?

And what makes you think she exploded mentally?! :shrug: Just because she lost to Stosur?! :lol:
Please..


Those comments are filled with words you have put in my mouth and don't even dignify a response.

As you please...

It's been like this between those sets of fans even before I joined here and that was in 2004. Some Serena fans will always feel angry that the media (in their opinion) pedalled Maria has the great white hope while viewing Serena has nothing more than a angry black woman and some Maria fans will never like the fact that Serena is the better player.

This board has always been like this and will never change. The moderators don't moderate anyway.

and you're only adding fuel to the fire. Serena IS mentally tougher than Maria will ever be. So please stop with the non-sense.

DevilishAttitude
Nov 25th, 2012, 05:17 PM
so what are you blabbling about Serena losing because of some mental lapse?!

Well it certainly didn't help her.

And what makes you think she exploded mentally?! :shrug: Just because she lost to Stosur?! :lol:
Please..

Yeahh her reaction to getting broken in the first game of the second set was a sign of someone clearly at their mentally toughest. :lol:

and you're only adding fuel to the fire. Serena IS mentally tougher than Maria will ever be. So please stop with the non-sense.

Yes it's all down to me, nothing to do with you. I don't agree with you, you don't agree with me. But don't claim it's only me adding fuel to the fire.

bandabou
Nov 25th, 2012, 05:36 PM
Well it certainly didn't help her.
It didn't help her in '04 either..it is what it is. Serena always has this history: she reaches a big final in her comeback but is unable to win them..she needs a year to get that mental side back.

That happened in '04, that happened in '10. If you're gonna pin '10 u.s. open to lack of mental toughness, then the same can be said about '04. But that of course doesn't fit in your theory..:lol: No, in '04 got outplayed and in '10 Serena crumbled, huh?! Please..:lol:


Yeahh her reaction to getting broken in the first game of the second set was a sign of someone clearly at their mentally toughest. :lol:

So what? The only thing she could've done to convince you that she was at her mentally toughest was rallying and winning the match. So why didn't you hope for this outcome for '04 Wimbledon?! There was even MORE all over the place..

Yes it's all down to me, nothing to do with you. I don't agree with you, you don't agree with me. But don't claim it's only me adding fuel to the fire.

It's just foolish..that you're arguing that a player who went 3-6 in finals this year, didn't even win a single set in those finals she lost..is the toughest player mentally of the whole tour.

Miss Atomic Bomb
Nov 26th, 2012, 09:30 AM
Martha can make as much noise as she wants against the lesser ranked players, but when it comes to playing the top players at the biggest stages this year, she has flopped more often than not. If it wasn't for Sara errani and brainless na, she would only have her stuttgart title to show for the season as even Radwanska made her bend over at one of the world's biggest arenas.

Serena on the other hand can struggle and barely scrape by against the lower ranked players but raises her game precisely when she needs to and has the confidence and mental strength to know and execute this against the best players at the biggest stages. That's mental strength.

As I said, if you are going to bring up a sparse few losses that she suffered not even few months into her comeback from a life threatening condition, then what about the horde of losses that Sharapova suffered for two and a half years (and still is, but now at the hands of top players) after her 5 minute surgery.

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doomsday
Nov 26th, 2012, 10:04 AM
Martha can make as much noise as she wants against the lesser ranked players, but when it comes to playing the top players at the biggest stages this year, she has flopped more often than not. If it wasn't for Sara errani and brainless na, she would only have her stuttgart title to show for the season as even Radwanska made her bend over at one of the world's biggest arenas.

Serena on the other hand can struggle and barely scrape by against the lower ranked players but raises her game precisely when she needs to and has the confidence and mental strength to know and execute this against the best players at the biggest stages. That's mental strength.

As I said, if you are going to bring up a sparse few losses that she suffered not even few months into her comeback from a life threatening condition, then what about the horde of losses that Sharapova suffered for two and a half years (and still is, but now at the hands of top players) after her 5 minute surgery.

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Yeah right Bradleyshow.
And if it wasn't for Zheng and Shvedova 's chokes, Serena wouldn't have won Wimbledon and if it wasn't for Vika's choke she wouldn't have won the US either.
We can play this game all day long you know :rolleyes:


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bandabou
Nov 26th, 2012, 10:22 AM
Yeah right Bradleyshow.
And if it wasn't for Zheng and Shvedova Serena wouldn't have won Wimbledon and if it wasn't for Vika's choke she wouldn't have won the US either.
We can play this game all day long you know :rolleyes:


Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App (http://www.verticalsports.com/mobile)

If, if, if...:lol: How come you didn't come with: if Masha had beaten Vika at the u.s. open, then Serena for sure wouldn't have won the open?! :lol:

Lachy
Nov 26th, 2012, 10:31 AM
Martha can make as much noise as she wants against the lesser ranked players, but when it comes to playing the top players at the biggest stages this year, she has flopped more often than not. If it wasn't for Sara errani and brainless na, she would only have her stuttgart title to show for the season as even Radwanska made her bend over at one of the world's biggest arenas.

Serena on the other hand can struggle and barely scrape by against the lower ranked players but raises her game precisely when she needs to and has the confidence and mental strength to know and execute this against the best players at the biggest stages. That's mental strength.

As I said, if you are going to bring up a sparse few losses that she suffered not even few months into her comeback from a life threatening condition, then what about the horde of losses that Sharapova suffered for two and a half years (and still is, but now at the hands of top players) after her 5 minute surgery.

Sent from my Galaxy Note II using VerticalSports.Com App

The procedure takes at least one hour - I'd stop trying to downplay the whole thing if I were you. Best not to talk about things you know nothing about :lol:

Miss Atomic Bomb
Nov 26th, 2012, 10:32 AM
Yeah right Bradleyshow.
And if it wasn't for Zheng and Shvedova Serena wouldn't have won Wimbledon and if it wasn't for Vika's choke she wouldn't have won the US either.
We can play this game all day long you know :rolleyes:


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I am not relying in ifs, should've , could've and would've but on what has already happened and facts

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Chrissie-fan
Nov 26th, 2012, 10:33 AM
It will be interesting to see how much longer people can keep going saying the same thing over and over again. I propose that we all just admit that Serena has the best serve, the best return, the best forehand, the best backhand, the best movement, the best defence, the best volleys, the best drop shots, the best overheads, that she's mentally the strongest, that Maria is a mental midget and that Serena had a great season while Maria had a lousy one. Some of that isn't so far from the truth anyway, and as for the rest of it - nobody is going to change anybody else's mind at this point (or even just seriously consider what the other side has to say). ;)

doomsday
Nov 26th, 2012, 10:53 AM
If, if, if...:lol: How come you didn't come with: if Masha had beaten Vika at the u.s. open, then Serena for sure wouldn't have won the open?! :lol:

Because I knew you would have.


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bandabou
Nov 26th, 2012, 11:28 AM
It will be interesting to see how much longer people can keep going saying the same thing over and over again. I propose that we all just admit that Serena has the best serve, the best return, the best forehand, the best backhand, the best movement, the best defence, the best volleys, the best drop shots, the best overheads, that she's mentally the strongest, that Maria is a mental midget and that Serena had a great season while Maria had a lousy one. Some of that isn't so far from the truth anyway, and as for the rest of it - nobody is going to change anybody else's mind at this point (or even just seriously consider what the other side has to say). ;)

Bitterness doesn't suit you, my friend. So now it's the Serena-fans who are the delusional ones?!
Of your list..we claim best serve and mental strength. The rest Serena's at least top 5 at some, not top 5 at the others. But please stop with tired song that Serena-fans claim that she's the best at everything.

Only makes you come over as bitter...and to my knowledge Caroline Wozniacki doesn't have any bitter fans. ;)

doomsday
Nov 26th, 2012, 11:30 AM
I am not relying in ifs, should've , could've and would've but on what has already happened and facts

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Yes you are.

Fact is that this year Serena lost in a first round of a major for the very first time in her career, she had some freaky losses beginning to this one and the one over Makarova.
I don't necessarily agree to say that Maria is tougher than her mentally but I can understand other people POV.

I also remember a commentator saying that week in week out Maria was the toughest competitor out there.


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bandabou
Nov 26th, 2012, 11:42 AM
Yes you are.

Fact is that this year Serena lost in a first round of a major for the very first time in her career, she had some freaky losses beginning to this one and the one over Makarova.
I don't necessarily agree to say that Maria is tougher than her mentally but I can understand other people POV.

I also remember a commentator saying that week in week out Maria was the toughest competitor out there.


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So, two early losses..clearly related to her ankle injury and the other: her first loss in 1r ever is all it takes for declaring Serena a mental weakling?

Okay..now we don't wanna go down the route with Masha who was going like years without even advancing past 4r at any of the non-RG majors, do we?! :shrug:

doomsday
Nov 26th, 2012, 12:06 PM
So, two early losses..clearly related to her ankle injury and the other: her first loss in 1r ever is all it takes for declaring Serena a mental weakling?

Okay..now we don't wanna go down the route with Masha who was going like years without even advancing past 4r at any of the non-RG majors, do we?! :shrug:

Who even talked about mental weakling :help: it's not because some people put Sharapova above her that suddenly Serena must be considered weak or sth.

And no we're not going down this route since it happened 3 years aback.
At this point I think it's just fair to admit that Serena is gonna have more WTF losses than Maria.
Take a look by yourself, her 4 losses this year happened to be against slumping players except maybe Kerber.

But she is still undefeated against the very best, this is weird this is why I don't really know where to rank Serena's mental strength she is a giant sometimes( since Wimbledon she really is) and other times she is just very low.


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Chrissie-fan
Nov 26th, 2012, 12:41 PM
Bitterness doesn't suit you, my friend. So now it's the Serena-fans who are the delusional ones?!
Of your list..we claim best serve and mental strength. The rest Serena's at least top 5 at some, not top 5 at the others. But please stop with tired song that Serena-fans claim that she's the best at everything.

Only makes you come over as bitter...and to my knowledge Caroline Wozniacki doesn't have any bitter fans. ;)
Bitter? I always considered myself if anything a rather modest poster actually. :) I thought it was fairly obvious that mine was a tongue in cheek post though...

But ok, about the mental strenght thing that seems to fascinate everyone. I think that both are very tough mentally. But in my opinion Serena's superiority has little to do with her being mentally stronger than Sharapova. She's just the better player. In order to be able to really compare their mental strenght both would have to be equal as players and than we could see who would come out on top because of what's between their ears. Sure going h2h Serena's mentally stronger because she has such a lobsided record against Maria in her favor. She must almost literally feel at this point that she just can't lose against her. But Maria is now in the position that Serena would be in if there ever would be someone who would just be better than Serena. Would we be saying that Serena is mentally weaker than that someone if Serena would lose four, five, six or more times in a row to her, or would we be saying that she's just the better player?

bandabou
Nov 26th, 2012, 01:03 PM
Who even talked about mental weakling :help: it's not because some people put Sharapova above her that suddenly Serena must be considered weak or sth.

And no we're not going down this route since it happened 3 years aback.
At this point I think it's just fair to admit that Serena is gonna have more WTF losses than Maria.
Take a look by yourself, her 4 losses this year happened to be against slumping players except maybe Kerber.

But she is still undefeated against the very best, this is weird this is why I don't really know where to rank Serena's mental strength she is a giant sometimes( since Wimbledon she really is) and other times she is just very low.


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The circumstances were the same...both through the process of comebacks. Maria got her three years to get it out of her system, so why you jump on Serena for what was basically a bad half year? :shrug:

We'll see how it goes, next year..but so you putting serena in a no-win scenario. If she starts losing to Azarenka and sharapova, then she can't beat the top players..if she loses to scrubs, then it's she isn't consistent. :lol:

doomsday
Nov 26th, 2012, 01:33 PM
The circumstances were the same...both through the process of comebacks. Maria got her three years to get it out of her system, so why you jump on Serena for what was basically a bad half year? :shrug:

We'll see how it goes, next year..but so you putting serena in a no-win scenario. If she starts losing to Azarenka and sharapova, then she can't beat the top players..if she loses to scrubs, then it's she isn't consistent. :lol:

No the circumstances weren't the very same you must be kidding me.

And no, she could have lost to Maria and Vika in the beginning of the season and I would have said different things.
There is no shame losing to these two especially since they've both dominated the early season (Vika the HC and Maria the clay court) but here Serena lost to far lesser opponents.
She wasn't even good to compete against them.


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bandabou
Nov 26th, 2012, 01:59 PM
Bitter? I always considered myself if anything a rather modest poster actually. :) I thought it was fairly obvious that mine was a tongue in cheek post though...

But ok, about the mental strenght thing that seems to fascinate everyone. I think that both are very tough mentally. But in my opinion Serena's superiority has little to do with her being mentally stronger than Sharapova. She's just the better player. In order to be able to really compare their mental strenght both would have to be equal as players and than we could see who would come out on top because of what's between their ears. Sure going h2h Serena's mentally stronger because she has such a lobsided record against Maria in her favor. She must almost literally feel at this point that she just can't lose against her. But Maria is now in the position that Serena would be in if there ever would be someone who would just be better than Serena. Would we be saying that Serena is mentally weaker than that someone if Serena would lose four, five, six or more times in a row to her, or would we be saying that she's just the better player?

Okay, I understand your point..then we can stop with the myth that Nadal is mentally tough, that Graf was mentally tough, etc..as well too, no?! :shrug:

If you're just better than your competition, then why stress out the mental aspect?! And does that mean that Sharapova is some scrub or something?! :shrug:

The Dawntreader
Nov 26th, 2012, 02:03 PM
Why do genuinely off-season threads descend into petty fan-girl chaos?

bandabou
Nov 26th, 2012, 02:05 PM
No the circumstances weren't the very same you must be kidding me.

And no, she could have lost to Maria and Vika in the beginning of the season and I would have said different things.
There is no shame losing to these two especially since they've both dominated the early season (Vika the HC and Maria the clay court) but here Serena lost to far lesser opponents.
She wasn't even good to compete against them.


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What are you talking about? so Serena wasn't in her process of coming back? You forgot the pulmonary embolism so quickly?!

Serena injured her ankle in Australia.so I'm convinced that contributed to her loss there.
Loss at RG, stuff happens.

Anyways your discussion is ridiculous. Maria after the 'shoulder'..how many years did we get to hear about that? Now Serena had a rusty half year after her ankle injury and you wanna act like she was at full strength in those losses?! :rolleyes:

Chrissie-fan
Nov 26th, 2012, 02:11 PM
Okay, I understand your point..then we can stop with the myth that Nadal is mentally tough, that Graf was mentally tough, etc..as well too, no?! :shrug:

If you're just better than your competition, then why stress out the mental aspect?! And does that mean that Sharapova is some scrub or something?! :shrug:
What part of "I think that both are very tough mentally" didn't you understand? But I think we've come to the point where we're just arguing to be arguing, so let me put an end to this (at least to my part in it) by saying that you are right and I am wrong. If not we'll continue to walk around in circles forever.

bandabou
Nov 26th, 2012, 03:21 PM
What part of "I think that both are very tough mentally" didn't you understand? But I think we've come to the point where we're just arguing to be arguing, so let me put an end to this (at least to my part in it) by saying that you are right and I am wrong. If not we'll continue to walk around in circles forever.

In your reply you said that at firt, then you added that Serena's success didn't have much to do with mental strength, but that she was the better player. Like the one excludes the other.

But you're right, let's end it..a topic that we'll never see eye to eye on.

DevilishAttitude
Nov 28th, 2012, 08:13 PM
It didn't help her in '04 either..it is what it is. Serena always has this history: she reaches a big final in her comeback but is unable to win them..she needs a year to get that mental side back.

That happened in '04, that happened in '10. If you're gonna pin '10 u.s. open to lack of mental toughness, then the same can be said about '04. But that of course doesn't fit in your theory..:lol: No, in '04 got outplayed and in '10 Serena crumbled, huh?! Please..:lol:.

Please show an example where Serena mentally crumbled in 2004? I agree with you that she wasn't at her toughest in that final, but you can't say she crumbled mentally to the same degree she did in 2011. 2004 was more of a case of having a bad day at the office than anything else.

So what? The only thing she could've done to convince you that she was at her mentally toughest was rallying and winning the match. So why didn't you hope for this outcome for '04 Wimbledon?! There was even MORE all over the place...

This comment doesn't make any sense and you are just arguing for the sake of it, I've explained multiple times why I believe what I believe but you just repeat yourself over and over again.

It's just foolish..that you're arguing that a player who went 3-6 in finals this year, didn't even win a single set in those finals she lost..is the toughest player mentally of the whole tour.

As I have said, Sharapova lost the vast majority of those finals, besides against Radwanska where she played poorly, because she was beaten by better players. She lost a lot of those finals because she wasn't good enough to win, not to do with mental toughness.

Martha can make as much noise as she wants against the lesser ranked players, but when it comes to playing the top players at the biggest stages this year, she has flopped more often than not. If it wasn't for Sara errani and brainless na, she would only have her stuttgart title to show for the season as even Radwanska made her bend over at one of the world's biggest arenas.

Serena on the other hand can struggle and barely scrape by against the lower ranked players but raises her game precisely when she needs to and has the confidence and mental strength to know and execute this against the best players at the biggest stages. That's mental strength.

As I said, if you are going to bring up a sparse few losses that she suffered not even few months into her comeback from a life threatening condition, then what about the horde of losses that Sharapova suffered for two and a half years (and still is, but now at the hands of top players) after her 5 minute surgery.

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You can't just dismiss Maria's shoulder surgery, it was a career threatening injury. I wouldn't dream of saying Serena's foot injury was a "minor problem" or her having blood clots as "a small illness". It's quite tasteless really.

It will be interesting to see how much longer people can keep going saying the same thing over and over again. I propose that we all just admit that Serena has the best serve, the best return, the best forehand, the best backhand, the best movement, the best defence, the best volleys, the best drop shots, the best overheads, that she's mentally the strongest, that Maria is a mental midget and that Serena had a great season while Maria had a lousy one. Some of that isn't so far from the truth anyway, and as for the rest of it - nobody is going to change anybody else's mind at this point (or even just seriously consider what the other side has to say). ;)

While I think there is the "Serena is best at everything" mentality displayed by a select group of Serena fans, I also think it's more to do with the fact they are completely unwilling to give Maria any credit in any department. No one is saying Sharapova is a better player than Serena, yet some of the comments are quite startling in terms of how anti-Sharapova they are. They would have you thinking that she is a complete non-entity, not the #2 player in the world.

bandabou
Nov 28th, 2012, 08:40 PM
Please show an example where Serena mentally crumbled in 2004? I agree with you that she wasn't at her toughest in that final, but you can't say she crumbled mentally to the same degree she did in 2011. 2004 was more of a case of having a bad day at the office than anything else.

She didn't crumble mentally at all..just because she yelled come on too early doesn't mean she wasn't there mentally. She still managed to break Stosur and get ahead..but just like in '04, her opponent was too good.


This comment doesn't make any sense and you are just arguing for the sake of it, I've explained multiple times why I believe what I believe but you just repeat yourself over and over again.

So why is it that '04 Wimbledon was all outplayed, no chance for Serena...but '11 u.s. open it was Serena just losing it mentally?! :lol: Sorry, you're just too funny.


As I have said, Sharapova lost the vast majority of those finals, besides against Radwanska where she played poorly, because she was beaten by better players. She lost a lot of those finals because she wasn't good enough to win, not to do with mental toughness.

So she either loses because the other players are better, the one time she played 'poorly'...and otherwise ALL her wins are because of mental strength. :lol: :facepalm: Who's this guy?! :lol:

Never read this much non-sense. What kind of logic is this? Miami final was a prime instance to show that Maria ain't no mental giant. Everytime it became 5-6 and Maria had to serve to stay in the set/match, she crumbled..but then you say, she played poorly?! :lol:


While I think there is the "Serena is best at everything" mentality displayed by a select group of Serena fans, I also think it's more to do with the fact they are completely unwilling to give Maria any credit in any department. No one is saying Sharapova is a better player than Serena, yet some of the comments are quite startling in terms of how anti-Sharapova they are. They would have you thinking that she is a complete non-entity, not the #2 player in the world.

Maria is MANY things, but she ISN'T mentally stronger than Serena. No chance in hell.

traralgon
Dec 25th, 2012, 01:14 PM
interesting topic