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RYNJ
Sep 14th, 2012, 07:26 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/anti-film-protests-spread-across-muslim-world-164455189.html
http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/0idI2LR8iz4AHARkfXuG2A--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Y2g9MjI4NDtjcj0xO2N3PTMzOTY7ZHg9MD tkeT0wO2ZpPXVsY3JvcDtoPTQyNDtxPTg1O3c9NjMw/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/eb8bec62f68327191b0f6a7067006b5d.jpg

CAIRO (AP) — Angry protests over an anti-Islam film spread across the Muslim world Friday, with demonstrators scaling the walls of U.S. embassies in Tunisia and Sudan, torching part of a German embassy and clashing with security forces at an American fast-food restaurant that was set ablaze in northern Lebanon.

Egypt's new Islamist president went on national TV and appealed to Muslims to not attack embassies, denouncing the violence earlier this week in Libya that killed four Americans, including the U.S. ambassador. Mohammed Morsi's first public move to restrain protesters after days of near silence appeared aimed at repairing strains with the United States over this week's violence.

Police in Cairo prevented stone-throwing demonstrators from nearing the U.S. Embassy, firing tear gas and deploying armored vehicles to push them back in a fourth day of clashes in the Egyptian capital.

The day of protests, which spread to around 20 countries, started small and mostly peacefully in countries such as Indonesia, Malaysia, India, Afghanistan and Pakistan. The most violent demonstrations took place in the Middle East. In many places, only a few hundred took to the streets, mostly ultraconservative Islamists — but the mood was often furious.
The demonstrators came out after weekly Friday Muslim prayers, where many clerics in their mosque sermons called on congregations to defend their faith, denouncing the obscure movie produced in the United States that denigrated the Prophet Muhammad. At least one protester was killed around the region.

Several thousand demonstrators protested outside the US Embassy in Tunis and battled with security forces, throwing stones as police fired volleys of tear gas and shot in the air. Some protesters scaled the embassy wall and stood on top of it, planting a black flag with the Islamic profession of faith, "There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet."
Police chased them off the wall and took the flag down.

The heaviest violence came in Sudan, where a prominent sheik on state radio urged protesters to march on the German Embassy to protest alleged anti-Muslim graffiti on mosques in Berlin and then to the U.S. Embassy to protest the film.
"America has long been an enemy to Islam and to Sudan," Sheik Mohammed Jizouly said.

Soon after, several hundred Sudanese stormed into the German Embassy, setting part of an embassy building aflame along with trash bins and a parked car. Protesters danced and celebrated around the burning barrels as palls of black smoke billowed into the sky until police firing tear gas drove them out of the compound.

Some then began to demonstrate outside the neighboring British Embassy, shouting slogans.

Several thousand then moved on the American Embassy, on the capital's outskirts. They tried to storm the mission, clashing with Sudanese police, who opened fire on some who tried to scale the compound's wall. It was not clear whether any protesters made it into the embassy grounds.

The police then launched giant volleys of tear gas to disperse the crowd, starting a stampede. Witnesses reported seeing three protesters motionless on the ground, apparently dead, though there was no immediate confirmation of deaths in the violence.

Ahead of the expected wave of protests on Friday — a traditional day for rallies in the Islamic world — U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton explicitly denounced the movie, aiming to pre-empt further turmoil at its embassies and consulates. The film, called "Innocence of Muslims," ridicules the Prophet Muhammad, portraying him as a fraud, a womanizer and a child molester.

"The United States government had absolutely nothing to do with this video," she said before a meeting with the foreign minister of Morocco at the State Department. "We absolutely reject its content and message." She said the video was "disgusting and reprehensible."

Egypt's Morsi said his TV address that "it is required by our religion to protect our guests and their homes and places of work," he said.

He called the killing of the American ambassador in Libya unacceptable in Islam. "To God, attacking a person is bigger than an attack on the Kaaba," he said, referring to Islam's holiest site in Mecca.

His speech came after President Barack Obama spoke with Morsi by telephone. The Obama administration has been angered by Morsi's slow response to the attack Tuesday night on the U.S. Embassy in Cairo. He made little more than vague statements about it for days without an outright condemnation of the breach, in which police did nothing to stop protesters from climbing the embassy walls.

His silence reflected the heavy pressure that Morsi, a longtime figure from the Muslim Brotherhood, faces from Egypt's powerful ultraconservative Islamists. They are using the film issue to boost their own political prominence while challenging Morsi's religious credentials.

Leaders of Egypt's Jihad group, a former militant organization, held a conference in the Egyptian city of Alexandria and said anyone involved in "defamation" of the prophet should be killed. They called on Morsi to cut relations with U.S.

"I appeal to President Mohammed Morsi to cut our relations with those monkeys and pigs," said Rifaei Taha, a leading member of the group.

Several hundred people, mainly ultraconversatives, protested in Cairo's Tahrir Square after weekly Muslim Friday prayers and tore up an American flag, waving a black, Islamist flag. A firebrand ultraconservative Salafi cleric blasted the film and in his sermon in Cairo's Tahrir Square said it was upon Muslims to defend Islam and its prophet.
Many in the crowd then moved to join protesters who have been clashing for several days with police between Tahrir and the U.S. Embassy. "With our soul, our blood, we will avenge you, our Prophet," they chanted as police fired volleys of tear gas.

Elsewhere, one protester was killed in the northern Lebanese city of Tripoli in clashes with security forces, after a crowd of protesters set fire to a KFC and a Hardee's restaurant. Protesters hurled stones and glass at police in a furious melee that left 25 people wounded, 18 of them police. In east Jerusalem, Israeli police stopped a crowd of around 400 Palestinians from marching on the U.S. consulate to protest the film. Demonstrators threw bottles and stones at police, who responded by firing stun grenades. Four protesters were arrested.

Security forces in Yemen shot live rounds in the air and fired tear gas at a crowd of around 2,000 protesters trying to march to the U.S. Embassy in the capital, Sanaa. Though outnumbered by protesters, security forces were able to keep the crowd about a block away from the mission.

A day earlier, hundreds of protesters chanting "death to America" stormed the embassy compound in Sanaa and burned the American flag. The embassy said nobody was harmed. Yemen's president, Abed Rabbo Mansour Hadi, quickly apologized to the United States and vowed to track down the culprits.

In Tripoli and Benghazi, civil soceity groups planned demonstrations to voice their opposition to violence and the killing of the U.S. ambassador. Worshippers during Friday prayers said that they will carry flowers and lay them in front of the ambassador's house in Benghazi.

Over the past days, since the attack on the consulate, hundreds held protests in Benghazi and Tripoli city centers mainly against the attack on the consulate.A small, peaceful demonstration was held Friday outside the U.S. Embassy in the Malaysian capital, Kuala Lumpur.

Hundreds of hardline Muslims held peaceful protests against the film throughout Pakistan, shouting slogans and carrying banners criticizing the U.S. and those involved in the film.

Police in Islamabad set up barricades and razor wire to prevent protesters from getting to the diplomatic enclave, where the U.S. Embassy and many other foreign missions are located. Protests were also held in Karachi, Peshawar and Lahore, where protesters shouted "Down with America" and some burned the U.S. flag. About 200 policemen and barbed wire ringed the U.S. Consulate in Lahore.

About 1,500 protest in the eastern city of Jalalabad, shouting "Death to America" and urge President Hamid Karzai to cut relations with the U.S. A prominent cleric in Indonesia urged Muslims there to remain calm despite their anger about the film. But Hizbut Tahrir Indonesia, a branch of the international network that advocates a worldwide Islamic state, on its website blamed the U.S. government for allowing the film to be produced and released, calling it "an act of barbarism that cannot go unpunished."

Talula
Sep 14th, 2012, 07:37 PM
Bang goes their tourism industry - what's left of it. And millions of local people will suffer further - Egypt is already suffering.

And in Regents Park today I heard a mob near the US Ambassador's residence.

If every time there was histrionics by Westeners on streets in America and other countries every time there was anti-Western propaganda in these countries then it would be 24 hours a day!

The irony is, most people had never heard of or would see, or support this film, until all of this. Over reactions or what!

Serenita
Sep 14th, 2012, 07:40 PM
Disgusting display of humanity.

Talula
Sep 14th, 2012, 07:42 PM
Disgusting display of humanity.

The irony is, if you offered them all an American passport they'd snatch it out of your hand in an instant!

Serenita
Sep 14th, 2012, 07:50 PM
The irony is, if you offered them all an American passport they'd snatch it out of your hand in an instant!
Probably. It's a shame that they would you use theire new found freedom to kill and pillage.
I bet many would like to see the likes of Khadaffi back in power controlling these ... let me stop.:o

frenchie
Sep 14th, 2012, 08:03 PM
That part of the world is really getting on my nerves.
They should just stop taking religion so seriously. They would not be offended every 5 minutes.

You know what?
I booked my next holidays 1 month ago. When the girl at the travel agency asked us where we wanted to go, our first answer was "not in an arabic country!!"

That tells everything.

KournikovaFan91
Sep 14th, 2012, 08:04 PM
This is news, when exactly was the Muslim world happy with the USA.
Ok its gotten out of hand recently but a friend of mine lived in Belgium but was American and while with a Belgian tour company in Egypt was told to make sure when asked give their nationality as Belgian as to say they were American would cause problems.

So this anger towards the US is hardly new.

Regarding tourism I believe there is no trouble in Sharm el-Sheik so I don't think it will hold them back, the whole regime change thing didn't deter people I know or the tens of flights from Dublin Airport each week.

The irony is, if you offered them all an American passport they'd snatch it out of your hand in an instant!

Typical Western arrogance :rolleyes:

Nicolás89
Sep 14th, 2012, 08:08 PM
I can't at the people on this thread. :facepalm:

saint2
Sep 14th, 2012, 08:10 PM
Here we go. Thats how Egypt looks like after "revolution" against "evil dictator".

fifty-fifty
Sep 14th, 2012, 08:12 PM
A warm Arab Spring turns to a chilling Arab Autumn: Reaping the grapes of wrath
http://beforeitsnews.com/politics/2012/09/a-warm-arab-spring-turns-to-a-chilling-arab-autumn-reaping-the-grapes-of-wrath-oped-rt-2456210.html

Serenita
Sep 14th, 2012, 08:33 PM
They should put all that negative energy into rebuilding theire country.
Egypt can say bye bye to theire tourist industry.

$uricate
Sep 14th, 2012, 09:30 PM
No offense but does any non-US country like the US? :shrug:

Strutting around the world like they're such hot shit (not all, there's a lot of great American posters here :angel:)

Can't wait till China brings it to the next level and stomps all over them.

Has any country in recent memory been involved in as many wars?

Has any other county launched a nuclear assault on a civilian area?

Novichok
Sep 14th, 2012, 09:43 PM
No offense but does any non-US country like the US? :shrug:

Strutting around the world like they're such hot shit (not all, there's a lot of great American posters here :angel:)

Can't wait till China brings it to the next level and stomps all over them.

Has any country in recent memory been involved in as many wars?

Has any other county launched a nuclear assault on a civilian area?

A mess. :haha:

Olórin
Sep 14th, 2012, 09:43 PM
Typical Western arrogance :rolleyes:

How on earth is the "arrogant westerner" stereotype any more valid or productive than the accused Islamic stereotyping :lol:

miffedmax
Sep 14th, 2012, 09:49 PM
There are two sides to every story.

http://blu.stb.s-msn.com/i/BC/DCEAB3A15365FAABF0866A429A85.jpg

http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2012/09/13/13497101_h193637871-e6d2298cca3ca94be7c56b6b1aa6352f75bb8e17-s6-c10.jpg

Libya also elected a secular Prime Minister this week, and has already arrested a number of people believed connected to the attack on our embassy and Ambassador Stevens, who as actually very popular in that country and seen as a supporter of the new government.

KournikovaFan91
Sep 14th, 2012, 09:58 PM
How on earth is the "arrogant westerner" stereotype any more valid or productive than the accused Islamic stereotyping :lol:

I live in the West and that IS the attitude of the establishment here about everywhere not just the Arab world. Look at how the media slanders Ecuador over Assange.

Having been to the Arab world myself this is clearly not the majority's actions whereas the arrogance of the West is the majority attitude.

Chris 84
Sep 14th, 2012, 10:07 PM
Bang goes their tourism industry - what's left of it. And millions of local people will suffer further - Egypt is already suffering.

And in Regents Park today I heard a mob near the US Ambassador's residence.

If every time there was histrionics by Westeners on streets in America and other countries every time there was anti-Western propaganda in these countries then it would be 24 hours a day!

The irony is, most people had never heard of or would see, or support this film, until all of this. Over reactions or what!

The irony is, if you offered them all an American passport they'd snatch it out of your hand in an instant!

you're fond of "the irony is" as a little catchphrase, aren't you? and i have no idea why you'd think they'd all snatch an american passport if they could. anyway, is it any surprise that people in certain places react with anti-american anger given the actions from the usa in recent times? of course not.

That part of the world is really getting on my nerves.
They should just stop taking religion so seriously. They would not be offended every 5 minutes.

You know what?
I booked my next holidays 1 month ago. When the girl at the travel agency asked us where we wanted to go, our first answer was "not in an arabic country!!"

That tells everything.

yes, it tells everything about you.

Has any country in recent memory been involved in as many wars?

disregarding the rest of your post (especially the china bit) this is pretty important stuff. america's rhetoric and actions have been perceived to be (and in some cases have clearly been) anti-muslim. its natural that a large number of people in these places loathe america.


as far as my own views, i think that it is quite obvious that certain muslims in certain countries are far too touchy over the subject of religion, and i believe that everything should be open to criticism and ridicule. however, it has been the case in fairly recent times in the "civilised west" that people who criticised christianity were threatened, ostracised and the like.

azdaja
Sep 14th, 2012, 10:13 PM
How on earth is the "arrogant westerner" stereotype any more valid or productive than the accused Islamic stereotyping :lol:
you have no idea.

debby
Sep 14th, 2012, 10:15 PM
That part of the world is really getting on my nerves.
They should just stop taking religion so seriously. They would not be offended every 5 minutes.

You know what?
I booked my next holidays 1 month ago. When the girl at the travel agency asked us where we wanted to go, our first answer was "not in an arabic country!!"

That tells everything.

Coming from a Sarkozy fanboy, NID.

King Halep
Sep 14th, 2012, 10:19 PM
No offense but does any non-US country like the US? :shrug:

Strutting around the world like they're such hot shit (not all, there's a lot of great American posters here :angel:)

Can't wait till China brings it to the next level and stomps all over them.

Has any country in recent memory been involved in as many wars?

Has any other county launched a nuclear assault on a civilian area?

Waiting for you guys to take out downtown Seoul :)

King Halep
Sep 14th, 2012, 10:21 PM
The US should stop giving these countries financial aid.

Wheres the wave of peace and goodwill your hero Bush brought to Middle East

Wigglytuff
Sep 14th, 2012, 10:39 PM
man this thread is just an excuse to stereotype people.

Wigglytuff
Sep 14th, 2012, 10:55 PM
Ok on topic

There is NO EXCUSE for this kind of mob violence. NONE. Nothing, I mean NOTHING justifies it. Having said that, the video is stupid and done by a bunch of liars and cheats who even lied to the actors. It's a stupid movie that should never have been made. From what I have read it seems the mobs (like all mobs) fails to understand the basic facts. Many of those in the mob, if not most or all, believe that there is something the government can do to stop or punish the idiots who made this film. I understand that it might be hard to understand but there has been no effect to explain that. We do NOT live in a dictatorship. Obama can not pushy button and have the movie go away. Nor should he have that rights.

$uricate
Sep 14th, 2012, 11:12 PM
Waiting for you guys to take out downtown Seoul :)

We have a bottle of coca cola and some mentos at the ready :oh:

Wheres the wave of peace and goodwill your hero Bush brought to Middle East

Exactly.

All the US government does is meddle. If there is so much anti-American hatred in these countries GTFO.

Oh yeah, if they did that they couldn't pillage all their natural resourses and give a lot of $$$ making building contracts to US construction companies :rolleyes:

I feel sorry for most Americans, believing all the lies.

The rest of the world is not an episode of Laguna Beach.

The least that can happen in these lands is free teeth whitening and Abercrombie and Fitch stores for all :cheer:

*JR*
Sep 14th, 2012, 11:13 PM
Looks like the Germans aren't that universally loved either. :help:

L-pOYums8wk

$uricate
Sep 14th, 2012, 11:16 PM
That last statement by me may be a stereotype but everyone here is stereotyping. As if everyone in these countries has the same view :rolleyes:

Olórin
Sep 14th, 2012, 11:20 PM
I live in the West and that IS the attitude of the establishment here about everywhere not just the Arab world. Look at how the media slanders Ecuador over Assange.

Having been to the Arab world myself this is clearly not the majority's actions whereas the arrogance of the West is the majority attitude.

Just because the media projects arrogance, and some quarters of the political establishment exhibit arrogance it doesn't mean it is "the majority attitude". Sorry, I've seen no proof whatsoever that you could make this generalisation. Anyway I'm not sure even the media is uniformly arrogant.

What "slander" in particular caught your mind over Assange? I thought the BBC dealt with it quite fairly.

Olórin
Sep 14th, 2012, 11:22 PM
you have no idea.

I have travelled to dozens of countries, all over the world, been to third world countries with worse living standards than those in northern africa. Also, I have studied history my entire life, I have a good overview of the history of the entire world including the middle and near east. I'm pretty sure I have at least as balanced a perspective than you, whoever you are.

$uricate
Sep 14th, 2012, 11:30 PM
Just because the media projects arrogance, and some quarters of the political establishment exhibit arrogance it doesn't mean it is "the majority attitude". Sorry, I've seen no proof whatsoever that you could make this generalisation. Anyway I'm not sure even the media is uniformly arrogant.

What "slander" in particular caught your mind over Assange? I thought the BBC dealt with it quite fairly.

While I believe you are very objective and respect your views, there is just no way the whole Assange thing was treated fairly.

Oh look, someone tells the truth finally and what happens?

They dig up some story and say he's endangering peoples lives, based on misdeads THEY have done, evil they have created.

So people in power can do whatever they want and we have to protect them based on some notion of perceived power and authority?

They lose that authority when they commit heinous acts and then lie to the masses.

Do you honestly believe the masses are told everything?

Someone tells the truth and the government and media ostracises them. Lo and behold all the sheep follow their shepherd.

Darop.
Sep 14th, 2012, 11:31 PM
The US should stop giving these countries financial aid.

Are you kidding me?? After all the turmoil, death, destruction and suffering the US has caused in these countries through war and supporting ridiculous marionettes of their own government, financial aid is THE VERY LEAST the US has to supply.

If anything tell the US to stop supporting Bahrein where they're standing by a vicious crackdown by the army and police on innocent civilians.

Volcana
Sep 14th, 2012, 11:40 PM
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2012/09/does-not-represent-us-moving-photos-pro-american-rallies-libya/56803/


http://cdn.theatlanticwire.com/img/upload/2012/09/12/rendered/659bcc02f03e781171106cccafdd2b0d_600x400.jpeg

http://cdn.theatlanticwire.com/img/upload/2012/09/12/rendered/78bbdaf5fc03c1db7e15d7aa270e7c63_600x400.jpeg

http://cdn.theatlanticwire.com/img/upload/2012/09/12/rendered/2d69957ce22934ce5a140c44faebb1f1_600x398.jpeg

http://cdn.theatlanticwire.com/img/upload/2012/09/12/rendered/d73b12b65278e631099c191bce3f8ad2_600x400.jpeg

The Arabic phrase above (next to) "Islam against terrorism" says "No to violence." That's on a lot of the signs.

http://cdn.theatlanticwire.com/img/upload/2012/09/12/trip2.jpeg

Update III: Benmansour explains the sign on the right approximately translates as, "We disapprove/condemn the humiliation of the prophet but NOT with Terrorism."

Olórin
Sep 14th, 2012, 11:47 PM
While I believe you are very objective and respect your views, there is just no way the whole Assange thing was treated fairly.

Oh look, someone tells the truth finally and what happens?

They dig up some story and say he's endangering peoples lives, based on misdeads THEY have done, evil they have created.

So people in power can so whatever they want and we have to protect them based on some notion of perceived power and authority?

They lose that authority when they commit heinous acts and then lie to the masses.

Do you honestly believe the masses are told everything?

Someone tells the truth and the government and media ostrascises them. Lo and behold all the sheep follow their shepherd.

I agree with you in as much as that I think it was impossible for the media to present him "fairly" when he was facing all these political accusations, and then legal accussations. Any "fair" portrayal would have involved digging into government motives, getting really dirty in the back story. It's hard to portray such a politically charged situation neutrally. The media can be accused of cowardice more than arrogance. I follow most of my current affairs on the BBC or Guardian newspaper and I personally don't feel they did a poor job all things considered.

My sister actually went to see Julian Assange speak at a literature festival (yes he was allowed to move around the country freely :lol:) - after the initial wikileaks break, his name was already synonymous with international scandal - it was the best attended event there. People wanted to hear his side and hear him speak. Not everyone is a brainwashed sheep, some people realise there is more than one side to every story. Not everyone was arrogantly condemning him.

$uricate
Sep 14th, 2012, 11:55 PM
I agree with you in as much as that I think it was impossible for the media to present him "fairly" when he was facing all these political accusations, and then legal accussations. Any "fair" portrayal would have involved digging into government motives, getting really dirty in the back story. It's hard to portray such a politically charged situation other than from the political perspective. The media can be accused of cowardice more than arrogance. I follow most of my current affairs on the BBC or Guardian newspaper and I personally don't feel they did a poor job all things considered.

My sister actually went to see Julian Assange speak at a literature festival - after the initial wikileaks break, his name was already synonymous with international scandal - it was the best attended event there. People wanted to hear his side and hear him speak. Not everyone is a brainwashed sheep, some people realise there is more than one side to every story. Not everyone was arrogantly condemning him.

The media is controlled by the governments and the governments control the world.

I know that they need to squash him, and quickly.

One person cannot change the world.

We live in a world of greed and lies. The government say we need lies to survive but some of us are smart enough to understand.

You are right, there is no way the governments of the world and their motives will ever be questioned. It's the same old, those in power are protected and the little man trying to make a difference is quashed.

What bugs me is how obvious the whole thing seems. Yet everyone I speek with wants him charged, even though he is probably telling the truth.

It seems most want to believe the lies and get on with their ant-like existence.

I know some people still use their brain.

Free speech exists when the government wants it to exist.

Wigglytuff
Sep 15th, 2012, 12:26 AM
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2012/09/does-not-represent-us-moving-photos-pro-american-rallies-libya/56803/


http://cdn.theatlanticwire.com/img/upload/2012/09/12/rendered/659bcc02f03e781171106cccafdd2b0d_600x400.jpeg

http://cdn.theatlanticwire.com/img/upload/2012/09/12/rendered/78bbdaf5fc03c1db7e15d7aa270e7c63_600x400.jpeg

http://cdn.theatlanticwire.com/img/upload/2012/09/12/rendered/2d69957ce22934ce5a140c44faebb1f1_600x398.jpeg

http://cdn.theatlanticwire.com/img/upload/2012/09/12/rendered/d73b12b65278e631099c191bce3f8ad2_600x400.jpeg

http://cdn.theatlanticwire.com/img/upload/2012/09/12/trip2.jpeg

Warms my heart. In many ways the media fails to do its job by not sharing this story.

Volcana
Sep 15th, 2012, 12:41 AM
Warms my heart. In many ways the media fails to do its job by not sharing this story.Kind of an oddment in the reporting I'm seeing and hearing today, even on NPR, is that 'AntiAmerican demonstrations are sweeping Egypt, Yemen, Tunis ....' and 'American Ambassador killed', yet what's happening IN Libya isn't being reported.

NOTE: Libya just had a war we helped on side win. The guys on the losing side aren't gone. The fighting has just stopped. The country is full of weapons, the central government is weak, and it's a tribal society in the first place. Somebody who wants the Americans out just made their move. A move. There will be more.

My vote is we find out who financed and organized this, and 'extraordinary render' their fat ass back here, and have a very public trial. And if they give up every goddamn one of their cronies, they live. At Gitmo, on bread and water, but they live.

Volcana
Sep 15th, 2012, 12:52 AM
BTW, the Arab Spring was going to have to go through this. The USA was basically at war, one way or another, from the Revolutionary War til the Civil War. French and Indian War, War of 1812, the Civil War, the War against Mexico, the Indian wars .... and look at the history of Europe!

You take a bunch of people out of an autocracy (or multiple autocracies) into a situation where there's weak, if any central force, and you get anarchy. For a while. Then things sort themselves out. Hopefully NOT into another autocracy.

pov
Sep 15th, 2012, 01:23 AM
NOTE: Libya just had a war we helped on side win. The guys on the losing side aren't gone. The fighting has just stopped. The country is full of weapons, the central government is weak, and it's a tribal society in the first place. Somebody who wants the Americans out just made their move. A move. There will be more.
How would many Americans react to foreign troops in the USA?

ptkten
Sep 15th, 2012, 02:23 AM
It's a really sad situation. Mainly because our President is the son of a Muslim father and was raised in an Islamic country yet the rest of the world thinks that America is on some crusade. I speak truthfully when I say that almost all Americans have nothing against Islam.

The Iraq war was for sure a mistake, and set back international affairs for a generation.

$uricate
Sep 15th, 2012, 02:34 AM
The Islam war was about oil.

Do you really think Obama gave a fuck about the Muslims?

All US Presidents are the same. A picture perfect solution that never works.

Start believing the real.

ptkten
Sep 15th, 2012, 03:07 AM
The Islam war was about oil.

Do you really think Obama gave a fuck about the Muslims?

All US Presidents are the same. A picture perfect solution that never works.

Start believing the real.

I do think Obama gives a fuck about Muslims, just as he cares about individuals of all religions. If you don't, then you know nothing about his worldview or what drove him into politics in the first place. As I said in my earlier post, Americans for the most part, are as welcoming and as open to different religions, races, and cultures as any other country in the world. If they weren't, then Obama wouldn't have been elected in the first place. For some reason, other nations like to look down on America but I've spent an extensive amount of time in other countries and I am always astonished at how backward all of these supposed enlightened countries are on race relations and toward religions that are different from their own. It's easy to scapegoat a certain country but the average American could not give a shit about whether someone is a Muslim or whether someone is from the middle east. Sure, there are extremists and racists here but no more than there are in other Western countries.

Now, the Iraq war was a massive mistake that was brought on by a few religious zealots because they had their puppet in office in GWB but I can assure you that most Americans are not happy with how that turned out, particularly after it was found out they were lied to about WMD.

This thread is very frustrating especially when you see people criticizing Americans the same way they claim Americans criticize Muslims or other countries. It's so hypocritical.

Infiniti2001
Sep 15th, 2012, 03:18 AM
If Islam is a religion of peace, why are these people getting all up in arms over a fucking bad film? Any excuse to act a fool right? Seriously, I'm so embarrassed for the actors :rolleyes: Take a look at the mess

MAiOEV0v2RM

:facepalm:

Nicolás89
Sep 15th, 2012, 03:56 AM
The US should stop giving these countries financial aid.

Lol if it weren't for the oil on these countries the US wouldn't be the superpower country it is today.

Infiniti2001
Sep 15th, 2012, 04:23 AM
Lol if it weren't for the oil on these countries the US wouldn't be the superpower country it is today.

Seriously?

Nicolás89
Sep 15th, 2012, 04:25 AM
Seriously?

Yea look it up.

Volcana
Sep 15th, 2012, 05:18 AM
If Islam is a religion of peace, why are these people getting all up in arms over a fucking bad film?Because that's what religious extremists do. Who killed Dr. George Tiller? Who carried out the Crusades? Who sat on their hands in Europe while Hitler murdered the Jews. Who HELPED Hitler murder the Jews? What sets India against Pakistan, war after war after war? Why is Israel a rogue nature that can murder it's neighbors with impunity, yet, guess what? They have a valid point?

Religious extremists. The psychos who says God want them to murder the unbelievers. Every insult to God much be avenged. As if God, if there is one, couldn't take care of vengeance just fine.

Sally Struthers
Sep 15th, 2012, 05:22 AM
I think we need to face the fact that sometimes the best form of government in places like these is a dictatorship :oh:

Moveyourfeet
Sep 15th, 2012, 05:43 AM
The irony is, if you offered them all an American passport they'd snatch it out of your hand in an instant!

Typical Western arrogance :rolleyes:

Nothing arrogant in that statement. It is pretty much spot on.

Lin Lin
Sep 15th, 2012, 06:04 AM
:lol:

ranfurly
Sep 15th, 2012, 06:39 AM
Half of them over there are fucking mad in the head anyway, doesn't surprise me.

ivanban
Sep 15th, 2012, 11:39 AM
Half of them over there are fucking mad in the head anyway, doesn't surprise me.

That's pretty much the case in every country :shrug:

King Halep
Sep 15th, 2012, 05:05 PM
Now, the Iraq war was a massive mistake that was brought on by a few religious zealots because they had their puppet in office in GWB but I can assure you that most Americans are not happy with how that turned out, particularly after it was found out they were lied to about WMD.

This thread is very frustrating especially when you see people criticizing Americans the same way they claim Americans criticize Muslims or other countries. It's so hypocritical.

If that is right then why did America bring back Bush for another term, apart from the probability that voting results in Ohio were rigged.

ptkten
Sep 15th, 2012, 05:26 PM
If that is right then why did America bring back Bush for another term, apart from the probability that voting results in Ohio were rigged.

People turned against Bush and the Iraq war more after the '04 election. I don't think most Americans understood they were lied to about WMD until after he was re-elected even though there was obviously evidence beforehand. During his second term he became one of the least popular presidents in U.S. history.

Person
Sep 15th, 2012, 05:49 PM
Hate speech must be condemned by peace makers ( obviously not by fool anti-islamists)
Christians in Egypt stand next to Muslims as anti-US sentiment grows
On Friday morning, in view of smoldering vehicles and tear gas billowing from the ground, three young Christians covered their face as the gas moved ever closer.

“We will stand by our Muslim brothers in this troubled time. We are all Egyptians,” Farid, a 22-year-old university student and self-described Ultra, or an avid football fan among the many who have taken frontline positions in the current clashes in downtown Cairo, told Bikyamasr.com.

While the minority among the throngs of Muslims in downtown Cairo, they have a strong sense of belonging.

“As Christians, we should feel a responsibility to be here and help support Muslims who are being attacked because it appears to have been Christians and Egyptians who made the film. That is disgraceful,” he added. His two colleagues nodded in agreement.

“If we are disagreeing about other things that’s fine, but right now this violence by the security forces is unacceptable. It was a peaceful protest that was attacked that started this and now we are all needed,” he argued.

Mynarco
Sep 15th, 2012, 05:50 PM
religious extremists are just batshit crazy

_summer
Sep 15th, 2012, 06:00 PM
If you read newpapers from egypt, they lied to muslims about the youtube video.
They called it a movie and said it was being screened across america.
Seems intentional, and seems like there's more to it than our media says.

pov
Sep 15th, 2012, 08:38 PM
Because that's what religious extremists do.
It's got little to do with religion.

kwilliams
Sep 15th, 2012, 09:52 PM
People turned against Bush and the Iraq war more after the '04 election. I don't think most Americans understood they were lied to about WMD until after he was re-elected even though there was obviously evidence beforehand. During his second term he became one of the least popular presidents in U.S. history.

:help: and yet some Americans wonder why they are so maligned at times. I think that most people in Europe thought the WMD debacle was a smokescreen so paltry that it would insult a raccoon's intelligence. Yes, some people just never let up on Americans, which must be so tiresome but it's the fact that the Bushes, Palins and Romneys are not only taken seriously in the public/political sphere but that they are actually taken so seriously by some people that they can be considered as suitable leaders. Of course, everyone knows that not everyone in America voted for these buffoons but it's alarming that millions upon millions not only would vote for the likes of them but actually have! I was disappointed when Bush was elected but I was completely and utterly confounded when he was reelected. I did not follow the 2004 election at all because I thought it was a foregone conclusion that Bush would lose. The man was barely fit to run a gas-station, never mind the most powerful nation on the planet. I'm sure Americans don't like to hear outsiders offering and even broadcasting their opinions so much but what happens in the U.S.A. effects the rest of the world sooner or later and Bush's election was quite the fuck-up. His reelection was...well, there just aren't words to adequately describe what a mistake it was.

Anyway, this whole situation with these protests is just getting so out of hand. I can't believe that lives have been lost over a film. It was so shocking that Hilary Clinton actually had to make an address and spell it out as plainly as possible that the American government did not produce this film and deplored its content. She went on to speak of the fact that just because all Americans are afforded freedom of speech that that doesn't mean the government likes or agrees with everything they say. I suppose that the concept of freedom of speech really must not be totally understood by some of these "protesters." Their actions make me sick. Targeting Westerners and bringing such chaos and destruction to their own cities.

It's important to remember that these people represent a minority, even if that minority is not as small as we'd like it to be. I saw this picture the other day which was, at least, a little reassuring.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152086487780023&set=a.10150548161855023.659130.105376725022&type=1&theater

ranfurly
Sep 16th, 2012, 01:06 AM
That's pretty much the case in every country :shrug:

well that's a given, even then they generally are middle eastern protesting against some cartoon or whatever and burning some foreign flag when shit hits the fan.

Didn't Sydney have unauthorized protests yesterday?

I think there was a kid with a sign saying something along the lines of all people who deface Allah should be beheaded....

oh wait, I found out
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/c0.0.403.403/p403x403/582419_10152087806755084_722201675_n.jpg

A shame, a minority of extremists really paints a shit picture of the situation.

M2k
Sep 16th, 2012, 01:40 AM
The US is not a perfect country, but I got to admit it's overwhelming to see what's happening out there. It's discouraging to see so much hatred.

The only thing I can say is that " I love all my fellow Americans." :smooch: I wouldn't want to be in any other place.

Halardfan
Sep 16th, 2012, 03:20 AM
The guy who made the video is a monumental asshole and by all accounts his video is vile if wholly amateurish stuff.

That said the hysterical and sometimes violent reaction of some Muslims is too much. If they are so convinced of their faith, they should have a thick enough skin to disregard things said about their religion, no matter how bad.

They also have no monopoly on being offended...at so many such events the American flag is burnt by a baying mob...surely that is profoundly offensive to many Americans too?

I welcome those Muslims who have stood against such behaviour and hope they can prevail.

Expat
Sep 16th, 2012, 04:02 AM
1) people commenting on this thread probably don't think much about religion.
2) in many islamic countries insulting islam is punishable by death so they are acting normally according to their culture.
3) this will become much more common in the "western" world as muslims become the majority in europe.
4) get used to it. you have overpopulation and unemployed young men in these countries who unlike european unemployed men can't get laid due to their religion leaving them with only violence as an outlet of their sexual frustation.

M2k
Sep 16th, 2012, 04:55 AM
The guy who made the video is a monumental asshole and by all accounts his video is vile if wholly amateurish stuff.

That said the hysterical and sometimes violent reaction of some Muslims is too much. If they are so convinced of their faith, they should have a thick enough skin to disregard things said about their religion, no matter how bad.

They also have no monopoly on being offended...at so many such events the American flag is burnt by a baying mob...surely that is profoundly offensive to many Americans too?
I welcome those Muslims who have stood against such behaviour and hope they can prevail.
It really is a shame that a silly little film(insignificant when you compare it to real world problems) could awake the worse feelings in a human being. Such a waste of energy, misguided in it's efforts.
If only we could put all that raw energy and effort to good use... I don't know saving the starving women/children of Darfur. Ending Bacha bazi? Anything worthwhile...

$uricate
Sep 16th, 2012, 09:22 AM
I do think Obama gives a fuck about Muslims, just as he cares about individuals of all religions. If you don't, then you know nothing about his worldview or what drove him into politics in the first place. As I said in my earlier post, Americans for the most part, are as welcoming and as open to different religions, races, and cultures as any other country in the world. If they weren't, then Obama wouldn't have been elected in the first place. For some reason, other nations like to look down on America but I've spent an extensive amount of time in other countries and I am always astonished at how backward all of these supposed enlightened countries are on race relations and toward religions that are different from their own. It's easy to scapegoat a certain country but the average American could not give a shit about whether someone is a Muslim or whether someone is from the middle east. Sure, there are extremists and racists here but no more than there are in other Western countries.

Now, the Iraq war was a massive mistake that was brought on by a few religious zealots because they had their puppet in office in GWB but I can assure you that most Americans are not happy with how that turned out, particularly after it was found out they were lied to about WMD.

This thread is very frustrating especially when you see people criticizing Americans the same way they claim Americans criticize Muslims or other countries. It's so hypocritical.

:lol:

The US Presidential elections.

My favourite show :hearts:

A coupple of put-together actors lying and blanding their way to office.

Whoever is the most middle of the road wins and everyone exclaims how he will change the world, only for him to be a carbon copy of the last President.

Remember how Obama was gonna make it all better?

How did that work out for you?

Mitt Romney will be exactly the same.

At least countries who don't have elections are upfront about it, you do realise that whoever you vote for it's the same people who run the country?

Sgt.Timmykinz
Sep 16th, 2012, 11:54 AM
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2012/09/does-not-represent-us-moving-photos-pro-american-rallies-libya/56803/


http://cdn.theatlanticwire.com/img/upload/2012/09/12/rendered/659bcc02f03e781171106cccafdd2b0d_600x400.jpeg

http://cdn.theatlanticwire.com/img/upload/2012/09/12/rendered/78bbdaf5fc03c1db7e15d7aa270e7c63_600x400.jpeg

http://cdn.theatlanticwire.com/img/upload/2012/09/12/rendered/2d69957ce22934ce5a140c44faebb1f1_600x398.jpeg

http://cdn.theatlanticwire.com/img/upload/2012/09/12/rendered/d73b12b65278e631099c191bce3f8ad2_600x400.jpeg

The Arabic phrase above (next to) "Islam against terrorism" says "No to violence." That's on a lot of the signs.

http://cdn.theatlanticwire.com/img/upload/2012/09/12/trip2.jpeg

Update III: Benmansour explains the sign on the right approximately translates as, "We disapprove/condemn the humiliation of the prophet but NOT with Terrorism."

I do love how 99% of people in this thread ignored this post and continued as if it was never made because it conflict with their twisted view that the arab world is full of American hating barbaric animals!

Before we condemn whole regions of the world, wouldn't it be nice to know how many people are actually rioting and how many have no involvement at all?

And FYI anti-american sentiments are rife around the world, and its not just confined to Arab countries, I've traveled the world and the majority of people I've met here in the UK, in France, Germany, Italy, Portugal, Spain, West Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Fiji, Singapore, Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, Cambodia have had negative attitudes to America and Americans. Even the Americans I met traveling made no defense for their country, knowing and understanding why such attitudes exist and when faced with the atrocities that can be directly linked back to America (like in Cambodia) they were open in their condemnation of their own country.

Expat
Sep 16th, 2012, 02:01 PM
America is hated because America is powerful. That's always been the case be it the British empire, the Chinese, the Ottomans. I rather be hated than be pitied upon. And there are plenty of countries that like us. Israel, Poland, South Korea, Kosovo, Taiwan to name a few. Because we are in a sense powerful enough to guarantee their safety.
It really is funny that countries like France whose wartime flag is a white cross on a white background disparage us.

JJ Expres
Sep 16th, 2012, 02:45 PM
America is hated because America is powerful. That's always been the case be it the British empire, the Chinese, the Ottomans. I rather be hated than be pitied upon. And there are plenty of countries that like us. Israel, Poland, South Korea, Kosovo, Taiwan to name a few. Because we are in a sense powerful enough to guarantee their safety.
It really is funny that countries like France whose wartime flag is a white cross on a white background disparage us.

you are delusional..so self-centered :spit:

ViceUltramontain
Sep 16th, 2012, 03:04 PM
America is hated because America is powerful. That's always been the case be it the British empire, the Chinese, the Ottomans. I rather be hated than be pitied upon. And there are plenty of countries that like us. Israel, Poland, South Korea, Kosovo, Taiwan to name a few. Because we are in a sense powerful enough to guarantee their safety.
It really is funny that countries like France whose wartime flag is a white cross on a white background disparage us.

What does France has to do with anything now ?


And you wonder why America is hated in the world ? Sadly it's because of the irritating and laughable behaviour of a minority like you.

Mynarco
Sep 16th, 2012, 03:10 PM
America is hated because America is powerful. That's always been the case be it the British empire, the Chinese, the Ottomans. I rather be hated than be pitied upon. And there are plenty of countries that like us. Israel, Poland, South Korea, Kosovo, Taiwan to name a few. Because we are in a sense powerful enough to guarantee their safety.
It really is funny that countries like France whose wartime flag is a white cross on a white background disparage us.

:help:

King Halep
Sep 16th, 2012, 03:16 PM
America is hated because America is powerful. That's always been the case be it the British empire, the Chinese, the Ottomans. I rather be hated than be pitied upon. And there are plenty of countries that like us. Israel, Poland, South Korea, Kosovo, Taiwan to name a few. Because we are in a sense powerful enough to guarantee their safety.
It really is funny that countries like France whose wartime flag is a white cross on a white background disparage us.

This will be news to the French members of the occupation in Afghanistan

ViceUltramontain
Sep 16th, 2012, 03:18 PM
Also to those who fought during the War of Independence.

pov
Sep 16th, 2012, 03:54 PM
That said the hysterical and sometimes violent reaction of some Muslims is too much. If they are so convinced of their faith, they should have a thick enough skin to disregard things said about their religion, no matter how bad.
I agree with that. However I don't think religion is the only - or maybe even primary - driving force. Many see the USA as part of an oppressive, dominate force that invades and/or destabilizes their countries and way of life. I don't see that view as being off-the-charts but targeting innocent civilians is way out of bounds.

Also let's not forget that a few centuries ago Christian establishment leaders were busy putting "heretics" to death. People often blame religion but IMO that's a simplistic reduction. Religion is used as a convenient point around which those who seek power at any cost can rally others. Ethnicity, nationality have been similarly used.

Expat
Sep 16th, 2012, 04:03 PM
LOL. Seriously the day America starts worrying about what the rest of the world thinks of us is the day I am worried about America's safety.

And Bush being president or Obama being president doesn't make a iota of difference. I was laughing hard when liberals used to say that Obama being elected would lead to an improvement in our relations with the Islamic world. We are hated because we are Americans who are looking out for our interests and our allies interests. That's not going to change because we have a half Muslim as the president unless he is a traitor and Obama is not one.

NoppaNoppa
Sep 16th, 2012, 04:19 PM
Go, go, go!!! :bounce:

pov
Sep 16th, 2012, 04:19 PM
America is hated because America is powerful. That's always been the case be it the British empire, the Chinese, the Ottomans.
:haha: I have to laugh because in attempting to bolster your viewpoint you have defeated it. Many of us know what the EE, the Chinese (actually the Han dynasty) and the Ottomans did to nations and groups less powerful than them. It's obvious that they were hated for how they used their power.

The "they hate us because we're powerful" viewpoint is one of the most ignorant cliches around. Laughable in fact. It's a viewpoint adopted only by those whose degree of nationalism results in a "head up their ass" effect where they are not able to look at their nation with any objective.

I'll also add that Americans as a whole aren't hated but the ones who have stupid viewpoints like "you hate us because we're powerful" often are. Either hated, laughed at or pitied.

NoppaNoppa
Sep 16th, 2012, 04:20 PM
The guy who made the video is a monumental asshole and by all accounts his video is vile if wholly amateurish stuff.

I think we all got muslim message on 9/11 :wavey:

King Halep
Sep 16th, 2012, 04:21 PM
Obama being president being elected automatically lead to an improvement in relations with many countries because he thinks before he speaks and does not have an idiot for a Secretary of State. Muslim is a religious choice not hereditary, are you too stupid to know that

King Halep
Sep 16th, 2012, 04:24 PM
I think we all got muslim message on 9/11 :wavey:

How does a fully loaded commercial jet fly into the side of a five storey office building? :wavey:

NoppaNoppa
Sep 16th, 2012, 04:27 PM
How does a fully loaded commercial jet fly into the side of a five storey office building? :wavey:

You have not noticed that there are US Embassies burning around the globe :tape: What is your source of news :help:

Expat
Sep 16th, 2012, 04:37 PM
:haha: I have to laugh because in attempting to bolster your viewpoint you have defeated it. Many of us know what the EE, the Chinese (actually the Han dynasty) and the Ottomans did to nations and groups less powerful than them. It's obvious that they were hated for how they used their power.

The "they hate us because we're powerful" viewpoint is one of the most ignorant cliches around. Laughable in fact. It's a viewpoint adopted only by those whose degree of nationalism results in a "head up their ass" effect where they are not able to look at their nation with any objective.



Obviously they were hated for how they used their power and America is too. Without us having that power would anyone care? America will use its power for its own interests and people will love/hate us based on how our decisions impact them.

Darop.
Sep 16th, 2012, 05:16 PM
I think we all got muslim message on 9/11 :wavey:

That wasn't a muslim message. Just like crusades aren't a christian message.

NoppaNoppa
Sep 16th, 2012, 05:18 PM
That wasn't a muslim message. Just like crusades aren't a christian message.

But, but. Bin-laden :confused:

Darop.
Sep 16th, 2012, 05:24 PM
America is hated because America is powerful. That's always been the case be it the British empire, the Chinese, the Ottomans. I rather be hated than be pitied upon. And there are plenty of countries that like us. Israel, Poland, South Korea, Kosovo, Taiwan to name a few. Because we are in a sense powerful enough to guarantee their safety.
It really is funny that countries like France whose wartime flag is a white cross on a white background disparage us.


:spit:
America isn't hated because it's powerful, it's hated because of how it uses it's power. Israel a country that likes America?? Try "Israel owes it's existance to America", and U.S. biased unconditial support to it.

pov
Sep 16th, 2012, 05:26 PM
Obviously they were hated for how they used their power and America is too. Without us having that power would anyone care? America will use its power for its own interests and people will love/hate us based on how our decisions impact them.
Okay. Yes. I agree with most of that. But "obviously"? No. What you state here is both more accurate and very different from the concept of "hating America because it's powerful."

"America will use its power for its own interests" Perhaps. To me that's not so. Like most nations/empires, American power is used by a relative few who manipulate for their interests. Some of those few may think that parts of their agenda are for the good of all Americans.

"us"? Again I'll go with perhaps. Many people get that many in the USA do not support and often don't even know many of the shenanigans those in power carry out.

pov
Sep 16th, 2012, 06:01 PM
Several Capitol Hill Republicans have since the recent anti-American attacks started calling for either a stop to such aid or at least tighter restrictions,

:facepalm: The extent of their stupidity still amazes me.

Mixal
Sep 16th, 2012, 07:05 PM
1) people commenting on this thread probably don't think much about religion.
2) in many islamic countries insulting islam is punishable by death so they are acting normally according to their culture.
3) this will become much more common in the "western" world as muslims become the majority in europe.
4) get used to it. you have overpopulation and unemployed young men in these countries who unlike european unemployed men can't get laid due to their religion leaving them with only violence as an outlet of their sexual frustation.

So ignorant and delusional :crying2:

On the other hand, what a bunch of morons. Destroying their own streets, property, hurting innocent people etc., but it's clear the movie isn't the real motive behind that. I am really surprised to see situation in Tunisia getting out of control.

And just for the record, (violent) demonstrations were not held in all Muslim countries.

Root
Sep 16th, 2012, 07:55 PM
Kind of an oddment in the reporting I'm seeing and hearing today, even on NPR, is that 'AntiAmerican demonstrations are sweeping Egypt, Yemen, Tunis ....' and 'American Ambassador killed', yet what's happening IN Libya isn't being reported.

NOTE: Libya just had a war we helped on side win. The guys on the losing side aren't gone. The fighting has just stopped. The country is full of weapons, the central government is weak, and it's a tribal society in the first place. Somebody who wants the Americans out just made their move. A move. There will be more.

My vote is we find out who financed and organized this, and 'extraordinary render' their fat ass back here, and have a very public trial. And if they give up every goddamn one of their cronies, they live. At Gitmo, on bread and water, but they live.

BTW, the Arab Spring was going to have to go through this. The USA was basically at war, one way or another, from the Revolutionary War til the Civil War. French and Indian War, War of 1812, the Civil War, the War against Mexico, the Indian wars .... and look at the history of Europe!

You take a bunch of people out of an autocracy (or multiple autocracies) into a situation where there's weak, if any central force, and you get anarchy. For a while. Then things sort themselves out. Hopefully NOT into another autocracy.

Because that's what religious extremists do. Who killed Dr. George Tiller? Who carried out the Crusades? Who sat on their hands in Europe while Hitler murdered the Jews. Who HELPED Hitler murder the Jews? What sets India against Pakistan, war after war after war? Why is Israel a rogue nature that can murder it's neighbors with impunity, yet, guess what? They have a valid point?

Religious extremists. The psychos who says God want them to murder the unbelievers. Every insult to God much be avenged. As if God, if there is one, couldn't take care of vengeance just fine.

Agree with everything you said here.

1) people commenting on this thread probably don't think much about religion.
2) in many islamic countries insulting islam is punishable by death so they are acting normally according to their culture.
3) this will become much more common in the "western" world as muslims become the majority in europe.
4) get used to it. you have overpopulation and unemployed young men in these countries who unlike european unemployed men can't get laid due to their religion leaving them with only violence as an outlet of their sexual frustation.

:spit: Why am I not surprised?

Stop spewing shit, will you?

I think we all got muslim message on 9/11 :wavey:

But, but. Bin-laden :confused:

:facepalm:

Only such dumb statements can come from LisickiFan or whatever the hell its username is. I guess you're not at all interested in the images posted by miffedmax and Volcana as the protesters don't subscribe to this "message" of yours. The sooner you realise that Bin Laden and his puppets are not representative of the majority of Muslims, the better for them and you.

The guy behind this film is a selfish and disgusting asshole especially that he went on with it despite knowing the possible chaos it would cause. He's got blood on his hands and is as much guilty of the murders.

Monica_Rules
Sep 16th, 2012, 07:58 PM
Muslims, in general, have always been overly sensitive about their religion. Well religious people in general are overly sensitive but right now Muslims seem to be the most.

As an athiest i never take the mick out of religions i rather a logical debate show how silly they are really.

GoofyDuck
Sep 16th, 2012, 09:09 PM
Nobody here saw that movie, nobody there saw that movie.

Just a mention of an anti Mohammed video and protest start.

Seriously all some of these people need is a twig and they start a fire.

young_gunner913
Sep 16th, 2012, 09:58 PM
We have a bottle of coca cola and some mentos at the ready :oh:



Exactly.

All the US government does is meddle. If there is so much anti-American hatred in these countries GTFO.

Oh yeah, if they did that they couldn't pillage all their natural resourses and give a lot of $$$ making building contracts to US construction companies :rolleyes:

I feel sorry for most Americans, believing all the lies.

The rest of the world is not an episode of Laguna Beach.

The least that can happen in these lands is free teeth whitening and Abercrombie and Fitch stores for all :cheer:

You're a fucking idiot. If you're gonna ride around on a high horse, take your head out of it's ass.

*JR*
Sep 16th, 2012, 10:36 PM
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1160760.1347800258!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/filmmaker17n-1-web.jpg

Egyptian-born Anti-Islam filmmaker goes into hiding after photo emerges


Hey Nakoula, I'll "watch" the chick 4U :hearts: while you're in hiding, ala Salman Rushdie. :devil:

_summer
Sep 16th, 2012, 11:55 PM
All of this is the result of the 'fox news' of the middle east imo.
They think there was a Hollywood movie...

Darop.
Sep 17th, 2012, 12:44 AM
Just 2 things to add in this thread:

1) financial aid isn't simply "a little present" USA decides to give random countries for them to develop;
2) deciding to cut aid just because 200 people out of a population of hundreds of thousands/millions protest in front of the american embassy is just retarded.

Are americans really so ignorant about their own history? Is it so hard to realize that the U.S. has kept puppets in power in the middle east for thr whole century, started and participated in countless wars and ALL THIS just to make sure that oil would keep flowing to them at low prices, no matter what? :shrug: Sure they say they do it in the name of "freedom", "human rights", "democracy", etc... but that's really not true, and it keeps supporting sanguinary dictatorships like that of the Khalifas in Bahrain.

These demonstrations aren't only based on this shitty film, it was just the spark, as there will be many other sparks and outlets.

Expat
Sep 17th, 2012, 02:18 AM
I understand giving money to dictatorships. They are much more reliable and predictable than democracies. Foreign policy is not a place to impose your ideas of democracy on countries that are not ready for it. If there are dictators we deal with dictators that's how it works.

Volcana
Sep 17th, 2012, 04:11 AM
Foreign policy is not a place to impose your ideas of democracy on countries that are not ready for it.Horseshit. No country is prepared to deal with democracy peacefully. It's just a matter of how much press the violence gets. The process of going from autotacracy to democracy is inherently disruptive.

Actually, this is horseshit TWICE.

Exempting Iraq, there has been NO 'imposition' of democracy, in the case of the USA, since before WWII. In fact, you might note that virtually no country moving toward democracy adopts the USA model. Virtually all are much more European.

If you believe in the supremacy of democracy, and the idea that your own country is safer if other countries are democracies, foreign policy is EXACTLY to 'impose' your ideas of democracy.

Or rather, you state that any form of a democratic solution is acceptable, and leae it to the people in question to sort it out. We didn't want Morsi in Egypt. But we live withthe result.

saint2
Sep 17th, 2012, 10:06 AM
I do love how 99% of people in this thread ignored this post and continued as if it was never made because it conflict with their twisted view that the arab world is full of American hating barbaric animals!


Is there anything worth comment in this post ? These are Lybians. Totally diffrent mentally than Egyptians, in majority, thanks to Gadaffi, who managed to make them civilised nation.

Lin Lin
Sep 17th, 2012, 12:41 PM
:yawn:

I even don;t have time to read.These people really have time:yawn:

pov
Sep 17th, 2012, 04:44 PM
Foreign policy is not a place to impose your ideas of democracy on countries that are not ready for it.

I kinda agree. Except I don't think it's a "ready for." If they don't want it, they don't want it. Period. IMO democracy as practiced is in most ways no better or worse than most other systems of government.

*JR*
Sep 17th, 2012, 06:11 PM
3EyGcXj84mE

miffedmax
Sep 17th, 2012, 08:38 PM
Kind of an oddment in the reporting I'm seeing and hearing today, even on NPR, is that 'AntiAmerican demonstrations are sweeping Egypt, Yemen, Tunis ....' and 'American Ambassador killed', yet what's happening IN Libya isn't being reported.

NOTE: Libya just had a war we helped on side win. The guys on the losing side aren't gone. The fighting has just stopped. The country is full of weapons, the central government is weak, and it's a tribal society in the first place. Somebody who wants the Americans out just made their move. A move. There will be more.

My vote is we find out who financed and organized this, and 'extraordinary render' their fat ass back here, and have a very public trial. And if they give up every goddamn one of their cronies, they live. At Gitmo, on bread and water, but they live.

As I pointed out earlier, the Libyans just elected a secular government. The group behind the assassination of our embassy staff is a group of hardcore jihadists who are fearful of losing out in the change of power. This attack was part of a last-ditch effort to rally the support of their fellow fanatics. It's as much about striking out at moderate Libyans who want no more experiments with absolutism of any sort as it is expressing anger at the U.S.

In Egypt, many of the rioters have connections to the most hardline elements who have left the Muslim Brotherhood because they regard it as being too moderate.

These riots are rarely just about what they appear to be about. There is almost always a local subtext that helps galvanize people to take to the streets. They are willing to tear up their own streets and attack their fellow citizens because these people regard their fellow Libyans/Egyptians as apostates, too.

That's why so many Libyans and even members of the Muslim Brotherhood have been counterdemonstrating or condemning these idiots. The US media is doing a terrible job of covering this.

$uricate
Sep 17th, 2012, 09:19 PM
You're a fucking idiot. If you're gonna ride around on a high horse, take your head out of it's ass.

I said most Americans.

I am fully aware on how clued-up you are :rolleyes:

Also my tongue was quite firmly in my cheek ;)

Ferg
Sep 18th, 2012, 12:46 PM
CAIRO (AP) — Ambassador Chris Stevens was still breathing when Libyans stumbled across him inside a room in the American Consulate in Benghazi, cheering, "Alive, alive" and "God is great" when they discovered he was still breathing and then trying to rescue him after last week's deadly attack in the eastern Libyan city, witnesses told The Associated Press on Monday.

Fahd al-Bakoush, a freelance videographer, was among the Libyan civilians roaming freely through the consulate after gunmen and protesters rampaged through it last Tuesday night. Al-Bakoush said he heard someone call out that he had tripped over a dead body.

A group of people gathered as several men pulled the seemingly lifeless form from the room. They saw he was alive and a foreigner, though no one knew who he was, al-Bakoush said. He was breathing and his eyelids flickered, he said. "He was alive," he said. "No doubt. His face was blackened and he was like a paralyzed person."

Video taken by al-Bakoush and posted on YouTube shows Stevens being carried out of a dark room through a window with a raised shutter by a crowd of men. "Bring him out, man," someone shouts. "Out of the way, out of the way!"
"Alive, Alive!" come other shouts, then a cheer of "God is great."

The next scene shows Stevens lying on a tile floor, with one man touching his neck to check his pulse.
The video has been authenticated since Stevens' face is clearly visible and he is wearing the same white t-shirt seen in authenticated photos of him being carried away on another man's shoulders, presumably moments later. Two colleagues of al-Bakoush who also witnessed the scene confirmed that he took the footage.

Stevens and three other Americans were killed in the attack on the consulate, part of a wave of assaults on U.S. diplomatic missions in Muslim countries over a low-budget movie made in the United States that denigrates the Prophet Muhammad.
The accounts of all three witnesses mesh with that of the doctor who treated Stevens that night. Last week, the doctor told The Associated Press that Stevens was nearly lifeless when he was brought by Libyans, with no other Americans around, to the Benghazi hospital where he worked. He said Stevens had severe asphyxia from the smoke and that he tried to resuscitate him with no success. Only later did security officials confirm it was Stevens.

A freelance photographer who was with al-Bakoush at the scene, Abdel-Qader Fadl, said Stevens was unconscious and "maybe moved his head, but only once."

Ahmed Shams, a 22-year-old arts student who works with the two, said the group cried out "God is great" in celebration after discovering he wasn't dead. "We were happy to see him alive. The youth tried to rescue him. But there was no security, no ambulances, nothing to help," he said.

The men carried Stevens to a private car to drive him to the hospital since there was no ambulance, all three witnesses said.


Hope the Libyans can sort out these problems soon, its pretty clear they're a generally laid back people and not used to this sort of violence. I've read articles that the violence is only coming from tiny groups but they just arent used to fighting back like they did to Gadaffi. I remember one Libyan here said they and the Irish are extremely similiar.

Volcana
Sep 18th, 2012, 01:52 PM
As I pointed out earlier, the Libyans just elected a secular government. The group behind the assassination of our embassy staff is a group of hardcore jihadists who are fearful of losing out in the change of power. This attack was part of a last-ditch effort to rally the support of their fellow fanatics. It's as much about striking out at moderate Libyans who want no more experiments with absolutism of any sort as it is expressing anger at the U.S.The next question being, do you offer any more help, who do you help if you do, and how do you help them?

Running around handing out bags of money like we did in Iraq in 2003-4 didn't work at all. Our best guy on what was needed is dead now. Maybe 2nd best guy is real sharp. And maybe he's an assclown. ANd of course, if Israel bombs Iran before the election, Obama can't condemn them, Romney won't condemn them, and then we'll REALLY see 'anti-American anger sweeps the Muslim world'.

The religious extremists, Christians, Jews, Muslims here and in the Middle East, have a very strong hand to play. It's easy to start a forest fire in a drought. It's hard to prevent a forest fire in a drought.

King Halep
Sep 18th, 2012, 02:04 PM
The next question being, do you offer any more help, who do you help if you do, and how do you help them?

Running around handing out bags of money like we did in Iraq in 2003-4 didn't work at all. Our best guy on what was needed is dead now. Maybe 2nd best guy is real sharp. And maybe he's an assclown. ANd of course, if Israel bombs Iran before the election, Obama can't condemn them, Romney won't condemn them, and then we'll REALLY see 'anti-American anger sweeps the Muslim world'.

The religious extremists, Christians, Jews, Muslims here and in the Middle East, have a very strong hand to play. It's easy to start a forest fire in a drought. It's hard to prevent a forest fire in a drought.

Do the Americans really want the best guy or a yesman in charge in these countries? In Iraq they appointed Jay Garner to lead the rebuilding and he was the best guy for it, but he told the Bush govt some things they didnt want to hear so they replaced him with incompetents and thats where all the problems started.

Darop.
Sep 18th, 2012, 02:24 PM
Do the Americans really want the best guy or a yesman in charge in these countries? In Iraq they appointed Jay Garner to lead the rebuilding and he was the best guy for it, but he told the Bush govt some things they didnt want to hear so they replaced him with incompetents and thats where all the problems started.

The only "problem" with Garner was that he was all for giving complete sovereignity back to Iraq as soon as possible, while Bush wanted to wet his beak just a bit longer....

miffedmax
Sep 18th, 2012, 04:15 PM
The next question being, do you offer any more help, who do you help if you do, and how do you help them?

Running around handing out bags of money like we did in Iraq in 2003-4 didn't work at all. Our best guy on what was needed is dead now. Maybe 2nd best guy is real sharp. And maybe he's an assclown. ANd of course, if Israel bombs Iran before the election, Obama can't condemn them, Romney won't condemn them, and then we'll REALLY see 'anti-American anger sweeps the Muslim world'.

The religious extremists, Christians, Jews, Muslims here and in the Middle East, have a very strong hand to play. It's easy to start a forest fire in a drought. It's hard to prevent a forest fire in a drought.

All good questions. Let's just say I have greater faith in the current administration to get the equation right than I do the other option. My personal feeling is that in general the Libyan people deserve our support as they go about rebuilding after this civil war, and I believe a huge majority of them want a basically secular, pro-Western government. Sure, it may not be exactly like our definition of what a democracy is, but if it works for them that's the important thing. I think we continue our current policies, with better security.

The only "problem" with Garner was that he was all for giving complete sovereignity back to Iraq as soon as possible, while Bush wanted to wet his beak just a bit longer....

I wanted to puke when Bush started bragging about bringing democracy to Libya and holding free elections--only after the Ayatollah Sistani threatened to put a million armed men in the streets. And the number of Americans who still parrot the Bush version. :weirdo:

AliceMariaRenka
Sep 18th, 2012, 06:08 PM
I had a list of places I wanted to travel to. I always dreamed of going to Egypt even though I hated Dubai - far too commercialised and somewhat unnerving to see men in hotel bars in full Arab dress surrounded by Russian prostitutes. I think any Westerner would be mad to go to these countries for quite some time. If it wasn't for oil I think the West would have a form of invisible wall, a sort of Eastern curtain.

miffedmax
Sep 18th, 2012, 08:37 PM
This editorial makes the case that the convicted criminal and his associated might have violated U.S. law as well:

http://consortiumnews.com/2012/09/17/did-anti-muslim-film-cross-legal-line/

"Of particular import is the strong suspicion that the real purpose of the film was to incite a violent reaction in the Muslim world. According to Steve Klein, interviewed after the eruption of protests in the Muslim world, “we went into this knowing this was probably going to happen.”

Klein told Nakoula, “you are going to be the next Theo van Gogh,” the Dutch film maker who was murdered in 2004 after making a film that defamed Islam. Subsequently, Nakoula’s accomplice, Morris Sadek, contacted an Egyptian newspaper reporter, Gamel Girgis, and told him he had an exclusive story about a American who made an anti-Muslim video. Sadek’s obvious intention was to make the video known to the Egyptian public."

Free speech that incites people to violence and murder is not protected by the first amendment, any more than libel or slander is. Klein has admitted the intent of making and releasing this video was solely to outrage Muslims.

debby
Sep 19th, 2012, 04:01 PM
ENOUGH.

More than enough. I hate religions sfm :lol: I mean, it's sad because I know many many lovely muslims who have asked nothing, but peace in their own religion. They are the majority. :sad: But sadly, people focus on the noisy minority (the extremists). Truly sad.

But enough.

Charlie Hebdo (extreme left newspaper in France) published some caricatures of Intouchables 2 with Mahomet and a random Jewish dude.

http://www.letelegramme.com/images/2012/09/18/1842517_capture-charlie-hebdo.JPG

Jesus fucking christ. I can't with dramaqueens (WTF at our prime minister condemning Charlie Hebdo, hello you used to defend them in 2006 ! and France is secular ! :rolleyes: ) being mad over this. I mean.... these are fucking caricatures, it won't fucking hurt anyone, they always draw caricatures of everyone, and I don't see why religions should not be concerned. Freedom speech amirite ? Gah. Sure, one could argue the timing is more than insensitive, but they already published some Mahomet caricatures in 2006, and some people complained :rolleyes:

Google results about Charlie Hebdo : many different caricatures (https://www.google.fr/search?num=10&hl=fr&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1366&bih=588&q=charlie+hebdo&oq=charlie+&gs_l=img.1.0.0i3l2j0l8.1558.2840.0.3899.10.9.1.0.0 .0.139.949.3j6.9.0...0.0...1ac.1.ykK8AVFm2Wo)

Now, they have to protect french ambassadors in muslim countries :help: Seriously, it's worrying if they get attacked over meaningless caricatures. I've heard much worse than these caricatures, and it's not a reason to kill people.

Really. I don't get it.

I do wonder why extremist muslims (so islamists) are so fucking extremist and we hear a lot about them these times. Don't they never learn? Maybe it is due to the Coran being outdated and its propency to be interpreted in 1154545 different ways, just like the Bible ?

Anti-islam policies are ridiculous, because of them, more and more people hate muslim people overall while most of them are peacuful and horrified by recent events. But I don't think these extremists are doing a good job to promote their religion by killing innocent people just in the name of Allah. It's sad really.

Mynarco
Sep 19th, 2012, 06:35 PM
^ WOW these Muslim extremists are just silly. Getting worked up over THIS?

miffedmax
Sep 19th, 2012, 07:40 PM
I posit that any extremist, of any stripe, is by definition, silly.

$uricate
Sep 19th, 2012, 08:10 PM
You know, religion as a whole is the single most destructive force in this world.

I pride myself on being an atheist.

All my views and beliefs are my own and I don't have to check myself against a guidebook of how I should behave.

The problem with religion is that people try to hold themselves to a set of rules that are hard or impossible to obey. Then you get the outcome of this obeyance and it causes violence.

saint2
Sep 19th, 2012, 08:18 PM
You know, religion as a whole is the single most destructive force in this world.


What was relligion of Stalin ?


I pride myself on being an atheist.


As much reason to be pride, like being white, black, or having blue eyes.

Sammo
Sep 19th, 2012, 09:44 PM
http://sphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/528465_433642710035140_887725931_n.jpg

wta_zuperfann
Sep 19th, 2012, 09:45 PM
Probably. It's a shame that they would you use theire new found freedom to kill and pillage.
I bet many would like to see the likes of Khadaffi back in power controlling these ... let me stop.:o



Bush started two wars and demanded democracy in that region - looks like he got his wish after all.

wta_zuperfann
Sep 19th, 2012, 09:47 PM
What was relligion of Stalin ?



He was a student at a Georgian Orthodox seminary.

wta_zuperfann
Sep 19th, 2012, 09:49 PM
^ WOW these Muslim extremists are just silly. Getting worked up over THIS?


Well, at least they are worked up over something tangible.

Bush got worked up and started a war on Iraq which killed tens of thousands over something that was imaginary.

saint2
Sep 19th, 2012, 09:51 PM
Bush started two wars and demanded democracy in that region - looks like he got his wish after all.


Lybia is not "that region". Geography fail.

He was a student at a Georgian Orthodox seminary.

Im not asking what he studied, Im asking in the name of wich religion he killed people.

*JR*
Sep 19th, 2012, 11:13 PM
Lybia Libya is not "that region". Geography fail.

Not. (They're all Muslim majority countries). The area stretches from Morocco to Pakistan, on to Bangladesh and then Indonesia. (Also northern Mali, plus much of Sudan and Somalia; plus much of the 5 "stans" in the southern territory of the former Soviet Union).

saint2
Sep 19th, 2012, 11:17 PM
Not. (They're all Muslim majority countries). The area stretches from Morocco to Pakistan, on to Bangladesh and then Indonesia. (Also northern Mali, plus much of Sudan and Somalia).


Does Turkey includes to "the area" as well ? What about Kosovo, Albania or France ?

Anyway, it was not Bush who invaded Libya.

*JR*
Sep 20th, 2012, 01:04 PM
Does Turkey includes to "the area" as well ? What about Kosovo, Albania or France ?

Anyway, it was not Bush who invaded Libya.

Modern Turkey still has founder Mustafa Kemal Atatuk's strict wall of separation between religion and government from circa 1923, which is guaranteed by a strong military. Even its present devoutly Islamic government has respected that.

You could add Albania to my list, though as an "island" in Christian Europe, it wields very little power; and ethnic Albanian majority Kosovo is fighting for its autonomy, etc. (not to wage jihad). Your question about France is too stupid 2B worthy of an answer.

And zuperfann explicitly blamed Bush for 2 regional wars (Iraq and Afghanistan). Regarding Libya, I've said several times here that Obama should have made the rebels accept the same proposed African Union brokered ceasefire Khaddafi was willing to. (And Security Council Resolution 1973 (http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2011/sc10200.doc.htm) envisioned only that).

Ferg
Sep 20th, 2012, 01:37 PM
And zuperfann explicitly blamed Bush for 2 regional wars (Iraq and Afghanistan). Regarding Libya, I've said several times here that Obama should have made the rebels accept the same proposed African Union brokered ceasefire Khaddafi was willing to. (And Security Council Resolution 1973 (http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2011/sc10200.doc.htm) envisioned only that).

Gaddafi was an absolute madman. Do you really believe he would have stuck to that ceasefire and handed peace over democratically?

saint2
Sep 20th, 2012, 01:43 PM
Gaddafi was an absolute madman. Do you really believe he would have stuck to that ceasefire and handed peace over democratically?


No, he wasn't.

And its really ironic, that EU is attacking Gadaffi for being madman, while buying gas from a man who is literally biggest scum on this planet.

Want to spread democracy ? Invide Russia then.

Ferg
Sep 22nd, 2012, 12:32 PM
At least four people have been killed after military police and protesters took over several militia bases in the Libyan city of Benghazi.

Hundreds of protesters angry over last week's killing of the US ambassador stormed the compounds of the Islamic extremist militias suspected of carrying out the attack. A crowd overwhelmed the Ansar al Shariah Brigade's site in the centre of the city. Buildings and a car were set alight and the fighters were evicted.

The protesters chanted "Libya, Libya", "No more al Qaeda!" and "The blood we shed for freedom shall not go in vain!" as they carried weapons out of the base. One of the demonstrators Hassan Ahmed said: "After what happened at the American consulate, the people of Benghazi had enough of the extremists.

"They did not give allegiance to the army. So the people broke in and they fled." However, in a later standoff outside the headquarters of the Sahaty Brigade, at least four people were killed and at least 34 injured, hospital sources said.

The violence followed a day of protests by more than 30,000 citizens who marched in Benghazi against armed militias.
"No, no, to militias," the crowd chanted. One sign read: "Benghazi is in a trap. Where is the army, where is the police?" Other signs mourned the killing of the ambassador, reading: "The ambassador was Libya's friend" and "Libya lost a friend."

Libya has struggled to control the heavily-armed militias which sprang up to overthrow Colonel Gaddafi's regime. A new wave of hostility towards them was sparked when US Ambassador Chris Stevens and three other Americans died in the September 11 attack on the Benghazi embassy.

Many Libyans have expressed outrage at the attack on the US consulate, which followed a protest triggered by an anti-Islam film made in America. US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said on Friday that the killings were a "terrorist attack", and White House spokesman Jay Carney said those responsible may have links to al Qaeda.

While Libya's militia groups claim they are protectors of the nation’s revolution, some say they act like gangs, detaining and intimidating rivals and carrying out killings. "I don't want to see armed men wearing Afghani-style clothes stopping me in the street to give me orders, I only want to see people in uniform," said Omar Mohammed, a university student who took part in the protests.

Activists and residents have also held a sit-in for the past eight days outside the Sahaba Mosque in the city of Darna. "The killing of the ambassador blew up the situation. It was disastrous," said Ayoub al Shedwi, a young Muslim preacher in Darna. "We felt that the revolution is going in vain."

http://news.sky.com/story/988151/islamist-militia-ousted-from-benghazi-bases

*JR*
Sep 23rd, 2012, 11:14 PM
Gaddafi was an absolute madman. Do you really believe he would have stuck to that ceasefire and handed peace over democratically?

In essence Libya would have become a pro-Gaddafi west (capital in Tripoli) and an anti-Gadaffi east (capital in Benghazi, capable of defending itself). Besides, SCR 1973 had no expiration date. Just as North Korea hasn't resumed the war (for now 59 years) lest it risk destruction, Gaddafi wouldn't have either. And for about the 20th time here, the US-British-French playing of Russia and China by forcing Libyan "regime change" has given those 2 permanent SC members a perfect excuse to veto doing a damn thing to stop the carnage in Syria.

Ferg
Sep 24th, 2012, 10:14 AM
In essence Libya would have become a pro-Gaddafi west (capital in Tripoli) and an anti-Gadaffi east (capital in Benghazi, capable of defending itself). Besides, SCR 1973 had no expiration date. Just as North Korea hasn't resumed the war (for now 59 years) lest it risk destruction, Gaddafi wouldn't have either. And for about the 20th time here, the US-British-French playing of Russia and China by forcing Libyan "regime change" has given those 2 permanent SC members a perfect excuse to veto doing a damn thing to stop the carnage in Syria.

That could have been even more disastrous, as East Libya is recognized as being a lot more extreme than the west in regards to terrorism, with many terrorists travelling from it to Afghanistan or Pakistan to train. If it was seperated the people may have been put under harsher Sharia laws, as they wouldnt have the support of the more moderate west. The ordinary people of course dont fit the stereotype, with even places like Derna being quite western-like, but if it was handed over to Islamists to control who knows what could have happened. We could have been left with a terrorist hotbed in the East and then Gaddafi in the West, not a very nice situation for anyone. At least the country is united, and the people can support each other in getting rid of these dangerous rogue militias themselves, with most of them agreeing to disband after seeing what happened in Benghazi.