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ns_Henin
Sep 7th, 2012, 12:17 PM
Serena is not that young anymore, but with her determination, she seems unstoppable just like her old days.

Will she broke Steffi's record?

I personally say YES.

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/9776/sarin.jpg

Tenis Srbija
Sep 7th, 2012, 12:21 PM
Is there any chance? Yes there is.
Will it happen? I don't think so.

She would have to continue winning Grand Slams year after year. This season she won one out of three. She will most probably win two out of three. Do the math, if she continues winning two out of four every year how old will she be when she completes this task?

People are seriously pouring so much petrol into her bandwagon. Like they did before FO...and USO 2011...

lloyders76
Sep 7th, 2012, 12:30 PM
good point, would require another 4 years of winning an average of 2 slams a season to move past graf's 22 (assuming she wins the open), not impossible of course, but given serena has never won more than 6 slams in a four year period it seems unlikely

oh, and graf doesn't have there slam singles record, court does

Rest Maria!
Sep 7th, 2012, 12:32 PM
AO might have been irrelevant in the 60s, but still Court holds the record.

TeamUla
Sep 7th, 2012, 12:32 PM
How many Slams did Steffi win? Serena has 14, right?

Sam L
Sep 7th, 2012, 12:35 PM
Margaret Court has the record number of Singles Grand Slams with 24. She also has the record for the most Grand Slam titles (singles, doubles and mixed) with 62. I think.

It doesn't matter whether Serena will break that record or not. She's the best player of her generation and she did it without the help of a knife. That's all it matters.

She's also a part of the best doubles team of her generation. You can't ask for more than that.

ns_Henin
Sep 7th, 2012, 12:42 PM
Margaret Court has the record number of Singles Grand Slams with 24. She also has the record for the most Grand Slam titles (singles, doubles and mixed) with 62. I think.

It doesn't matter whether Serena will break that record or not. She's the best player of her generation and she did it without the help of a knife. That's all it matters.

She's also a part of the best doubles team of her generation. You can't ask for more than that.

with or without a knife, Steffi still got more slams than Serena, so i really can't see your point.
that's a different story if Seles got more slams than Serena.

Sam L
Sep 7th, 2012, 12:48 PM
with or without a knife, Steffi still got more slams than Serena, so i really can't see your point.
that's a different story if Seles got more slams than Serena.

Of course it matters unless if you choose to be blind. Roger Federer has more slams than Rod Laver but Laver didn't play in a lot of slams because he turned professional and couldn't. And Laver won 4 in a row twice, Roger couldn't even win 4 in a row once. Only those who choose to remain ignorant and only look at numbers will think it doesn't matter.

And Court's Australian Championships are actually underrated and written off too easily by people considering that she was the dominant player of her era even if not counting Australians. Put this way, she still has more French, Wimbledon and US titles than her closest rival in BJK.

I'm not in awe of Graf's slam at all. She won the vast majority of her slams before Seles turned professional and when Evert/Navratilova were over the hill and after Seles got stabbed. They are meaningless.

Mattographer
Sep 7th, 2012, 12:52 PM
Graf leads Seles in their H2H before she got stabbed :shrug:

Sam L
Sep 7th, 2012, 12:54 PM
Graf leads Seles in their H2H before she got stabbed :shrug:
And yet Seles won 4 out of the last 7, despite being 4 and a half years younger.

Svetlana)))
Sep 7th, 2012, 12:56 PM
One step at a time. 18 is now the goal.

Doully
Sep 7th, 2012, 12:56 PM
Here we go...

http://bucultureshock.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/scream-stab.jpg

ns_Henin
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:04 PM
Of course it matters unless if you choose to be blind. Roger Federer has more slams than Rod Laver but Laver didn't play in a lot of slams because he turned professional and couldn't. And Laver won 4 in a row twice, Roger couldn't even win 4 in a row once. Only those who choose to remain ignorant and only look at numbers will think it doesn't matter.

And Court's Australian Championships are actually underrated and written off too easily by people considering that she was the dominant player of her era even if not counting Australians. Put this way, she still has more French, Wimbledon and US titles than her closest rival in BJK.

I'm not in awe of Graf's slam at all. She won the vast majority of her slams before Seles turned professional and when Evert/Navratilova were over the hill and after Seles got stabbed. They are meaningless.

my bad.
i thought the one that got stabbed was Graf

Jimmie48
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:05 PM
No way. Graf won't be touched (from any other than Agassi that is :oh:)

KournikovaFan91
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:07 PM
I don't think she'll get that many, then again who knows with Serena.
Since I can't see her winning RG again she'd have to be picking them up at the other 3 and while Wimbledon looks like a lock she can be hit and miss at AO and USO from time to time.

8 is a pretty big gap.

tennisbum79
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:07 PM
NO, 22 GS is too much. she would need to win 8 more
Her best bet is catching Martina Nav with 18 GS, even this is a tall order because of her age.

Your poll m should have included an nother option: "No, from fans"

Excelscior
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:08 PM
Unless you're disrespecting M. Court (and mind you I'm not a big fan of hers), I thought Graf had 22 to her 24 major titles?

Now let the mudslinging begin!? :lol: :tape: :lol:

As far as your question, it's way too early to tell (cause who knows about Serena's future draws, health, other players level, a sudden Serena drop off at age 30+, etc.).

However, anythings possible, though I think that's unlikely (8 more majors for her).

So no (though I'm sure some of her fans will disagree)!

eDonkey
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:08 PM
Margaret Court has the record number of Singles Grand Slams with 24. She also has the record for the most Grand Slam titles (singles, doubles and mixed) with 62. I think.

It doesn't matter whether Serena will break that record or not. She's the best player of her generation and she did it without the help of a knife. That's all it matters.

She's also a part of the best doubles team of her generation. You can't ask for more than that.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_li2xe6KEkV1qzd1oq.gif
Stay pressed.

Both Steffi and Monica are all time greats. Do not include some mental into the conversion just to give an advantage to one of them.
Justine also had a good record over Serena, but things went wrong for her after 2007. You cannot make such conclusions.

KournikovaFan91
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:09 PM
Since 11 of Court's were at AO during a time many top players didn't play there I personally regard Steffi's record as better, regardless of Court's political opinions.

Olórin
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:10 PM
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_li2xe6KEkV1qzd1oq.gif
Stay pressed.

Both Steffi and Monica are all time greats. Do not include some mental into the conversion just to give an advantage to one of them.
Justine also had a good record over Serena, but things went wrong for her after 2007. You cannot make such conclusions.

Are you trying to make some equivalency between Justine's decline in form and voluntary retirement to Seles' stabbing? I certainly hope not.

And I thought this thread couldn't get any more barmy after EvilRena :haha:

Geisha
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:12 PM
People are truly exhausting. The beginning of Wimbledon, everyone said Serena was done. Two weeks later and she's back at her prime. Like, relax! She's playing great tennis and really is killing everyone. But whatever goes up must come down. She gets injured, a lot. She has tons of bad matches. She should win the majority of GS that she plays, but who really knows?

Sam L
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:14 PM
Are you trying to make some equivalency between Justine's decline in form and voluntary retirement to Seles' stabbing? I certainly hope not.


Of course he is and by that showing his ignorance and lack of logic. :lol: I'm not even going to bother with these second rate trolls.

Geisha
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:15 PM
Obviously, there is a "chance" for anything in life to happen. There is a chance that Serena will play until she's 60 and be winning GS on intimidation. Is it a "likely chance"? No. Am I counting her out? No. But, she's playing for another five years, at the most. If she can really take advantage of her form and win the hardcourt GS until AO 2014, then she'll have 18 and who knows from there.

lloyders76
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:16 PM
Since 11 of Court's were at AO during a time many top players didn't play there I personally regard Steffi's record as better, regardless of Court's political opinions.

irrelevant, those australian opens were grand slam tournaments, therefore she has 24 in total, were talking about an objective figure of 24 slams, the subjectivity you're employing belongs in the countless posts in other threads which list the lack of depth in court, and others, GS wins

but 24 is 24

producer88
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:17 PM
If anyone can do it, it's Serena! There's a reason she's GOAT, when she's on, no one can beat her!

I don't have high hopes, but it's still possible.

IDK why people say she can't win the French, was she not the favorite going in? I'm confused, she did win Clay Court titles as well, beating Azarenka & Sharapova, this season.

I have Serena the favorite for French Open 2013 already (if she's healthy & focus).

KournikovaFan91
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:18 PM
Thats why I said personally, everyone else can consider the criteria they wish. :shrug:

Tenis Srbija
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:21 PM
If anyone can do it, it's Serena! There's a reason she's GOAT, when she's on no one can beat her!

I don't have high hopes, but it's still possible.

IDK why people say she can't win the French, was she not the favorite going in? I'm confused, she did win Clay Court titles as well, beating Azarenka & Sharapova, this season.

I have Serena the favorite for French Open 2013 already (if she's healthy & focus).

She won Charleston and Madrid. Charleston is played on green clay, Madrid on blue. Both are 10 times faster then Roland Garros clay. So you really can't compare those events.

Stamp Paid
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:21 PM
Lordrena is a benevolent deity.
Who is this Evilrena?

Libertango
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:23 PM
Sigh.

Evilrena?

Anyway, this gets discussed until cows come home. Don't people get sick of saying the same things over and over?! :tape:

Serena might. She might not. What does it matter? They (Serena AND Steffi) are both fabulous players. Let's celebrate both of them.

lloyders76
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:26 PM
Thats why I said personally, everyone else can consider the criteria they wish. :shrug:

well, obviously it's your opinion, that's what i mean by you being subjective

and that's the point i'm making - a record is a record, a quantifiable figure is irefutable

this thread isn't about criteria, it's simply about a record GS figure and whether it can be overtaken

doesn't matter whether people think Court 'deserves' it, she has it

KournikovaFan91
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:28 PM
Yeah but the thread is about Steffi not Court so why is Court even mentioned.

tennisbum79
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:28 PM
Since 11 of Court's were at AO during a time many top players didn't play there I personally regard Steffi's record as better, regardless of Court's political opinions.
There is something to that.
I remember BJK saying it was not easy making the trip to Australia just by lack of financial support. and often many players did not make the trip.
So, in some way, it is like winning your own invitational because other invited players did not show up.


With that said, her overall tottal GS title is very impressive.

Also, let's not forget, Graf also had 2 years where her main rival, Monical Seles was out for 2 full years.
Before the stabbing in April of 1993 she has just won the AO, beating Graf and had momentum that year going into RG, which she had won 3 consecutive times years prior.

Geisha
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:29 PM
There is something to that.
I remember BJK saying it was not easy making the trip to Australia just by lack of financial support. and often many players did not make the trip.
So, in some way, it is like winning your own invitational because other invited players did not show up.


With that said, her overall tottal GS title is very impressive.

Let's not forget, Graf also had 2 years where her main rival, Monical Seles was out for 2 full years.
Before the stabbing in April of 1993 she has just won the AO, beating Graf and had momentum that year going into RG, which she had won 3 consecutive times years prior.

Agree with the stabbing bit, but that's a should/coulda/woulda statement. Seles got stabbed; she was out of commission. It's not her fault, but Graf could only beat who she played...and she did.

Geisha
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:30 PM
Yeah but the thread is about Steffi not Court so why is Court even mentioned.

The thread's title is wrong. Steffi's GS count is not a world record. :tape:

Geisha
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:32 PM
She won Charleston and Madrid. Charleston is played on green clay, Madrid on blue. Both are 10 times faster then Roland Garros clay. So you really can't compare those events.

Clay is clay. There are hardcourts in some tournaments that are faster than other hardcourts, as well. Some red clay are slower than other red clay. The basic principles of clay are still there - doesn't matter if some are a little quicker and some aren't.

Sam L
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:32 PM
The thread's title is wrong. Steffi's GS count is not a world record. :tape:
Yes. The only big record she has is the most number of weeks at No. 1. Wozniacki and co have destroyed that record and has dragged it through the mud. :tape:

The other big records are split between Court and Navratilova. Most Grand Slam singles, most consecutive Grand Slam singles etc...

Excelscior
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:32 PM
Graf leads Seles in their H2H before she got stabbed :shrug:

Bingo!

That's not to take away from Seles in anyway. But just to point out to Seles fans, that always seems to invade any thread that mentions Steffi Graf in any way (even in passing).

Yes, Monica had a great little run before her stabbing. But it must also be said, that Graf was going through her own turmoil/family struggles, and was losing to all type of mugs, she wasn't losing to previously. But that's always overlooked.

So give Steffi her due, despite what happened to Monica (god bless her). It can be argued, Seles just came along at the right time during Steffi's career. No one who would analyze both their games, would ever call Monica the better player (though she was certainly A GREAT ONE).

Let it rest!

Geisha
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:36 PM
Bingo!

That's not to take away from Seles in anyway. But just to point out to Seles fans, that always seems to invade any thread, that mentions Steffi Graf (even in passing).

Yes, Monica had a great little run before her stabbing. But it must also be said, that Graf was going through her own turmoil/family struggles, and was losing to all type of mugs, she wasn't losing to previously. But that's always overlooked.

So give Steffi her due, despite what happen to Monica. It can be argued, she just came along at the right time during Steffi's career. No one who would analyze both their games, would ever call Monica the better player (though she was A GREAT ONE).

Let it rest!

I'm not a pro-Seles or pro-Graf fan, but Seles' run was hardly 'little'. :tape: Before she got stabbed, she won seven of the previous eight GS that she competed in. She was dominating for 2 1/2 years before the stabbing. I DIGRESS, THOUGH.

Sam L
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:37 PM
Bingo!

That's not to take away from Seles in anyway. But just to point out to Seles fans, that always seems to invade any thread, that mentions Steffi Graf (even in passing).

Yes, Monica had a great little run before her stabbing. But it must also be said, that Graf was going through her own turmoil/family struggles, and was losing to all type of mugs, she wasn't losing to previously. But that's always overlooked.

So give Steffi her due, despite what happen to Monica. It can be argued, she just came along at the right time during Steffi's career. No one who would analyze both their games, would ever call Monica the better player (though she was A GREAT ONE).

Let it rest!

And yet she was still winning a slam every year and remained No. 2 for that entire period. That doesn't sound like someone who was slumping at all.

In fact, if Graf just won the three Grand Slam finals she lost against Seles from 90-93, she would've been No. 1 most of that time and there never would've been a rivalry.

The fact that Seles was 4 years younger and had a rivalry going with Graf was extraordinarily impressive. At 19, she already had more French Opens than Graf, had a winning H2H against her on clay. Had the same number of hard court slams as Graf and equal H2H against her on hard courts. The only edge that Graf had was on grass, carpet and at Wimbledon. But at 23, she was expected to have that edge. Seles was 19 and the one on the rise.

To turn around and say that Graf had better statistics and therefore would've been better is so stupid. If they were both 19 OK, you might have a point.

Do people use their brains?

tennisbum79
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:40 PM
Graf leads Seles in their H2H before she got stabbed :shrug:
True, but Seles had the momentum the year (1993) she was stabbed, having just won the AO beating Graf, and heading into RG, which she had won 3 consecutive time 3 years prior.
She also had won USO 2 consecutive years before.

Tenis Srbija
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:44 PM
Clay is clay. There are hardcourts in some tournaments that are faster than other hardcourts, as well. Some red clay are slower than other red clay. The basic principles of clay are still there - doesn't matter if some are a little quicker and some aren't.

Actually no. There is a much bigger difference at Charleston's clay and Europe's clay. Much more difference then, for example, hard courts in Australia and USA. It's not that the clay in Madrid was "a little quicker". It's a lot quicker, moving in Madrid and moving in Paris is a lot different, ball bounces are a lot different. Altitude was also a lot different. So no, you can't say clay is clay. And that's pretty obvious.

Sam L
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:44 PM
A lot of Graf fans (freaks) are obsessed with her records. It's very Gunther Parche like. That's something unique among her fan base.

Serena fans just want to see her play. There's hardly any obsession with her being the greatest or her having the records.

What is Steffi Graf off the tennis court? A housewife. What is Serena Williams off the tennis court? An entrepreneur, a celebrity, a writer and so on.

She is so much more interesting.

As far as records go, Court has all the records and nothing any of those freaks say will change that.

Tenis Srbija
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:47 PM
A lot of Graf fans (freaks) are obsessed with her records. It's very Gunther Parche like. That's something unique among her fan base.

1.) Serena fans just want to see her play. There's hardly any obsession with her being the greatest or her having the records.

2.) What is Steffi Graf off the tennis court? A housewife. What is Serena Williams off the tennis court? An entrepreneur, a celebrity, a writer and so on.

She is so much more interesting.

As far as records go, Court has all the records and nothing any of those freaks say will change that.

1 - :facepalm:
2 - :facepalm:

Doully
Sep 7th, 2012, 01:51 PM
1 - :facepalm:
2 - :facepalm:

I physically cringed myself.

Where there is Graf, there is typically at least one or two Selestials foaming at the mouth.

ns_Henin
Sep 7th, 2012, 02:02 PM
1 - :facepalm:
2 - :facepalm:

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg268/scaled.php?server=268&filename=williamsserena9408col.jpg&res=landing ...........................

you can kiss ma' az, or stay pressed under my arm
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg191/scaled.php?server=191&filename=serenawilliamspinkswim.jpg&res=landing

coz i'm still more fabulous than your fave
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg211/scaled.php?server=211&filename=serenawilliamsbasksinsu.jpg&res=landing

Tenis Srbija
Sep 7th, 2012, 02:06 PM
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg268/scaled.php?server=268&filename=williamsserena9408col.jpg&res=landing ...........................

you can kiss ma' az, or stay pressed under my arm
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg191/scaled.php?server=191&filename=serenawilliamspinkswim.jpg&res=landing

coz i'm still more fabulous than your fave
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg211/scaled.php?server=211&filename=serenawilliamsbasksinsu.jpg&res=landing

Oh my... :facepalm: x 204204024024020420
http://x.vukajlija.com/var/uploads/reactions/201209/21559/sleepy-bulldog-falls-asleep.gif

Excelscior
Sep 7th, 2012, 02:17 PM
Yes. The only big record she has is the most number of weeks at No. 1. Wozniacki and co have destroyed that record and has dragged it through the mud. :tape:

The other big records are split between Court and Navratilova. Most Grand Slam singles, most consecutive Grand Slam singles etc...

So Graf doesn't have the record for most Season ending #1's (8)?

She doesn't have the title for most majors in the Open Era (22)?

Graf doesn't have the second longest winning streak after Navratilova at 66 games?

Graf doesn't have the record for "most major finals in a row, at 13?

Graf doesn't have the third amount of tour wins, at 900-115?

And Graf doesn't have the third highest win %, at almost 90%, after Court and Chrissie (and ahead of Martina)? And the records go on and on.

Lastly, is your hate/dislike for Graf so much, it blinds you to some well known tennis facts, records and common sense? If so, I don't know what to say/tell you.

Mattographer
Sep 7th, 2012, 02:30 PM
A lot of Graf fans (freaks) are obsessed with her records. It's very Gunther Parche like. That's something unique among her fan base.

Serena fans just want to see her play. There's hardly any obsession with her being the greatest or her having the records.

What is Steffi Graf off the tennis court? A housewife. What is Serena Williams off the tennis court? An entrepreneur, a celebrity, a writer and so on.

She is so much more interesting.

As far as records go, Court has all the records and nothing any of those freaks say will change that.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lg2l0nVYFD1qc4rhzo1_400.gif

Excelscior
Sep 7th, 2012, 02:42 PM
Originally Posted by Sam L
A lot of Graf fans (freaks) are obsessed with her records. It's very Gunther Parche like. That's something unique among her fan base.

Serena fans just want to see her play. There's hardly any obsession with her being the greatest or her having the records.

What is Steffi Graf off the tennis court? A housewife. What is Serena Williams off the tennis court? An entrepreneur, a celebrity, a writer and so on.

She is so much more interesting.

As far as records go, Court has all the records and nothing any of those freaks say will change that.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lg2l0nVYFD1qc4rhzo1_400.gif

I'm glad you and that GIF laughed. It's funny indeed.

Shows you how shallow and pressed people can be (bringing up how Serena's more interesting). But of course she would never bring up what Margaret Court's saying and doing now with her spare time. :lol:

Anyway, the last that I knew, both Steffi and her husband Andre had raised $500 million (and counting) on their life long goal of expanding education through his/their original successful Las Vegas Charter School, nationally to underprivileged children.

Sounds like a very busy, meaningful, admirable housewife to me. :lol: :tape: :lol:

mistymore
Sep 7th, 2012, 02:47 PM
Not sure. I am a big fan of both players so wouldnt mind either way. I think she is more likely to pass Chris and Martina though. As dominant as she seems now she is still going on 31.

Maria Croft
Sep 7th, 2012, 03:20 PM
It's not impossible, but I doubt Serena's form will last that long.
If she were to accomplish this as fast as possible, she would still have to play for over two years, not losing a single Slam match.

Pump-it-UP
Sep 7th, 2012, 03:21 PM
She needs to win 9 of the next 17 slams (8/16 or 9/16 after this USO finishes) assuming that she retires at the end of 2016. :unsure: It depends on how her body holds up. Realistically I hope she stays healthy enough to play at least 14 of them.

I'd be thrilled with 20.

NashaMasha
Sep 7th, 2012, 03:27 PM
She needs to win 9 of the next 17 slams (8/16 or 9/16 after this USO finishes) assuming that she retires at the end of 2016. :unsure: It depends on how her body holds up. Realistically I hope she stays healthy enough to play at least 14 of them.

I'd be thrilled with 20.

more like 9 of 13 , because FO will be almost impossible to win

Roookie
Sep 7th, 2012, 03:31 PM
Serena fans just want to see her play. There's hardly any obsession with her being the greatest or her having the records.


LMAO :haha:

eDonkey
Sep 7th, 2012, 03:38 PM
Are you trying to make some equivalency between Justine's decline in form and voluntary retirement to Seles' stabbing? I certainly hope not.

And I thought this thread couldn't get any more barmy after EvilRena :haha:

Never had such intention. I only wanted to say that life is unpredictable.My example was about something that happened in the mind of a top player who was domineering over another one in a definite period of time (like Seles domineered Graf).

Seles could have got a serious injury herself if the stabbing part never happened. It is disrespectful for other players who played in the same era not being mentioned just because something could have happened.

jasonbloom
Sep 7th, 2012, 03:41 PM
The other big records are split between Court and Navratilova. Most Grand Slam singles, most consecutive Grand Slam singles etc...
Navratilova won all the doubles slam, including mixed, and she has a great rival in slam, Evert which made it more competitive. And we all know Graf is helped by the stab

SerenaSlam
Sep 7th, 2012, 04:45 PM
I just love the fact that Serena Williams herself dictates to you people to such an extent.

Raiden
Sep 7th, 2012, 05:26 PM
Yeah but the thread is about Steffi not Court so why is Court even mentioned.This thread is about a record that is held by Court (regardless of the fact that the thread-opener made a choice to be a cheat and a fraud and falsely attribute the record to Graf).

Fuzzylogic
Sep 7th, 2012, 05:35 PM
If there was any player on the horizon who looks like she could challenge Serena at her best, I would say it's a definite NO. But Serena at her best is so above the rest of them, that it's probably only Serena's body that can stop Serena from doing whatever she wants. So I'm gonna say if she paces herself well over the next four years, who knows, she could come close.

Direwolf
Sep 7th, 2012, 08:16 PM
USO - 15
Beginning of the End of the World...
if tennis still exist then...
AO 13' - 16
WIM 13' - 17
AO 14' - 18
USO 14' - 19

Errani and Kerber will take over...
soo...
Nope...

Sam L
Sep 7th, 2012, 08:53 PM
So Graf doesn't have the record for most Season ending #1's (8)?

She doesn't have the title for most majors in the Open Era (22)?

Graf doesn't have the second longest winning streak after Navratilova at 66 games?

Graf doesn't have the record for "most major finals in a row, at 13?

Graf doesn't have the third amount of tour wins, at 900-115?

And Graf doesn't have the third highest win %, at almost 90%, after Court and Chrissie (and ahead of Martina)? And the records go on and on.

Lastly, is your hate/dislike for Graf so much, it blinds you to some well known tennis facts, records and common sense? If so, I don't know what to say/tell you.

No. 1 related. Open era means shit because women didn't have a pro tour. Second? Third? Finals records? Please! In the records that matter, it's all Court and Navratilova.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lg2l0nVYFD1qc4rhzo1_400.gif

You are the last person who should be laughing at anyone on a message board or in life. And yes continue "communicating" with GIFs because it makes a lot more sense than when you try to communicate with words. Loser.

Anabelcroft
Sep 7th, 2012, 09:36 PM
And yet Seles won 4 out of the last 7, despite being 4 and a half years younger.

But won more times while Monica was number 1 ;) pre or post stabbing!

sweetadri06
Sep 7th, 2012, 09:41 PM
Steffi is the greatest ever, and Serena is just Serena. I'm just happy she is healthy and playing well at age 30. If she stays healthy for another 2 years atleast, she could easily pick up another slam or two. She'll finish her career with 15-18 slams and that's just fine for me.

Excelscior
Sep 7th, 2012, 09:43 PM
Steffi is the greatest ever, and Serena is just Serena. I'm just happy she is healthy and playing well at age 30. If she stays healthy for another 2 years atleast, she could easily pick up another slam or two. She'll finish her career with 15-18 slams and that's just fine for me.

You sound so level headed, compared to so many others here. :yeah:

Sombrerero loco
Sep 7th, 2012, 10:14 PM
i dont think serena will win more slams than steffi, really. 10 more slams looks like too many, imo

acetoace
Sep 7th, 2012, 10:16 PM
If she wins 2012 USO and then move on to take AO 2013, I think she would get to 18 which is all I want her to get. Anything more than that......goodluck to her.

However, considering everything Serena has been through since her knee surgery, to come this far after all that is pretty remarkable.:worship:

dencod16
Sep 7th, 2012, 11:20 PM
I hope she can, but i believe she can get past Navratilova and Evert's 18. With the way that her game has evolve and become more controlled.

bajantoo
Sep 7th, 2012, 11:39 PM
Of course it matters unless if you choose to be blind. Roger Federer has more slams than Rod Laver but Laver didn't play in a lot of slams because he turned professional and couldn't. And Laver won 4 in a row twice, Roger couldn't even win 4 in a row once. Only those who choose to remain ignorant and only look at numbers will think it doesn't matter.

And Court's Australian Championships are actually underrated and written off too easily by people considering that she was the dominant player of her era even if not counting Australians. Put this way, she still has more French, Wimbledon and US titles than her closest rival in BJK.

I'm not in awe of Graf's slam at all. She won the vast majority of her slams before Seles turned professional and when Evert/Navratilova were over the hill and after Seles got stabbed. They are meaningless.

One might make the same observation about someone who chose to ignore the fact that there are a heap of records which Roger holds that Laver doesn't come close to - validation by comparison of factors other than numbers is not a one-way street

Serenaluv
Sep 7th, 2012, 11:41 PM
She will pass Graf. It's not far off, and with the current state of the tour, there's nobody gonna be ready to stop her within the next 5 years.

You can say but this junior looks promising etc or this pro player, from what i've seen, I don't think amongst all pro/juniors there's even 1 consistent future slam winner.

roguedandelion
Sep 7th, 2012, 11:46 PM
Serena might have a had a chance if she was more consistent up until now, but now I don't see it. 8 majors is a lot.

lloyders76
Sep 7th, 2012, 11:49 PM
She will pass Graf. It's not far off, and with the current state of the tour, there's nobody gonna be ready to stop her within the next 5 years.

You can say but this junior looks promising etc or this pro player, from what i've seen, I don't think amongst all pro/juniors there's even 1 consistent future slam winner.


but like i said, the shortest time span she's taken to win 8 majors is six/seven years. so she'd have to go on her most consistently successful period of her career, embarking on it at the age of 30.

it would be exciting to see a player reaching those kinds of numbers (ie catching nav/evert and beyond) as i don't see anyone from this generation doing so, therefore it could be 20 years before we do se it from anyone but serena

FattyKid
Sep 7th, 2012, 11:50 PM
Serena would be unstoppable if she wins USO tomorrow. The psychological factor would be there. From there on it would be at least 3 slams per year for over 10 years :bounce:

acetoace
Sep 7th, 2012, 11:57 PM
USO - 15
Beginning of the End of the World...
if tennis still exist then...
AO 13' - 16
WIM 13' - 17
AO 14' - 18
USO 14' - 19

Errani and Kerber will take over...
soo...
Nope...


Exact scenario that very well may happen should Serena win 2012 USO. Only thing I'll add is for her to win 1 more FO. Realistically though, I see 18 as NID.

mm1147
Sep 7th, 2012, 11:59 PM
Graf leads Seles in their H2H before she got stabbed :shrug:

seles was leading in grandslam finals 3-1 which is more important:shrug:

FattyKid
Sep 8th, 2012, 12:00 AM
Never underestimate the factor of psychology in tennis. Once you lost 5 times straight to someone, it becomes a demon in your head.

Johnbert
Sep 8th, 2012, 12:00 AM
of course. silliams will end up with at least 30 slams. we all know that...

tae04
Sep 8th, 2012, 12:04 AM
Anything's possible but she'd have to be at this same level in 2-3 yrs. At this point I think should could win tomorrow then the Australian Open. Being at 17 or 18 by the end of 2013 is VERY possible.

acetoace
Sep 8th, 2012, 12:16 AM
of course. silliams will end up with at least 30 slams. we all know that...


No one said that but u. Hating pretty much? That said, like it or not, Serena will get to 18 and to the extent the prospect roughful hater's feathers...... ya'll pretty much have no choice at this point but to deal with reality of that eventuality coming to pass sooner or later and it will!!!! JUST WATCH!

Anabelcroft
Sep 8th, 2012, 08:13 AM
seles was leading in grandslam finals 3-1 which is more important:shrug:

And Graf was leading their H2H while Seles was world number 1...

Leading number 1 player not being able to dominate H2H against a slump player who,at that time even lost 5 times in a row(and won only 1 out of 7 matches) to Sabatini whom she previously beat 19 times :lol:

Sam L
Sep 8th, 2012, 08:17 AM
And Graf was leading their H2H while Seles was world number 1...

Leading number 1 player not being able to dominate H2H against a slump player who,at that time even lost 5 times in a row(and won only 1 out of 7 matches) to Sabatini whom she previously beat 19 times :lol:

But Seles was leading their Grand Slam H2H while she was No. 1. Steffi can have San Antonio and Hamburg but Monica had Australian and French Opens. :lol:

And yes, Sabatini beat Steffi 5 times in a row but none of those 5 were at slams? Steffi turned it around in the Wimbledon final. She was hardly slumping when she was No. 2 and won Wimbledon and became No. 1.

And then Seles who was No. 2 won the US Open and became No. 1. That's not slumping, that's just another player being better than you. :lol:

JRena
Sep 8th, 2012, 08:22 AM
The way I see it if Serena does intend to compete in RIO Olympics this gives her four more years before she wants to retire.

Considering that there is absolutely no one in this new generation that can even come close to her level of talent then I would say she would still be the favorite in 3/4 slams. AO,Wim and USO.

Now even if she does average 2/4 per year for four years that will allow her to equal steffi's 22. BAM.

So there is a chance, but it will be very hard and she has to stay consistent and healthy.

disco_rage
Sep 8th, 2012, 08:44 AM
But Seles was leading their Grand Slam H2H while she was No. 1. Steffi can have San Antonio and Hamburg but Monica had Australian and French Opens. :lol:

And yes, Sabatini beat Steffi 5 times in a row but none of those 5 were at slams? Steffi turned it around in the Wimbledon final. She was hardly slumping when she was No. 2 and won Wimbledon and became No. 1.

And then Seles who was No. 2 won the US Open and became No. 1. That's not slumping, that's just another player being better than you. :lol:
You do realise all your posts just make you sound like a bitter Seles obessed freak haha.
Graf's best record, in my opinion, is at least FOUR titles at all FOUR majors. Step up. Will anyone ever match that? No.

Yes Seles stabbing was horrifc and it obviously would effect who won the slams in her absense but you cant simply say oh if she hadnt been stabbed she would have won all them slams, no-one knows, so let it go.

Kon[GS]illiams
Sep 8th, 2012, 09:16 AM
22 is too much for her at this age

But I would say 18 is possible for her to catch up If she keep playing like this. ;)

doomsday
Sep 8th, 2012, 09:24 AM
It would be good to see her catching the likes of Evert or Navratilova and obviously it would piss Martina as well.:lol:

Anabelcroft
Sep 8th, 2012, 10:14 AM
Graf was hardly slumping when she was No. 2



Oh poor Sam,bitter till the end :lol:

Just face the fact that Graf is proclaimed best woman's tennis player and you would feel a lot easier...

Read tennis-magazine list made this year,see official Australian open site and read every greatest poll on tf where even here,on tf where there are most different fans Graf still wins EVERY poll...

:wavey: and :kiss:

Ohhh,sorry,I almost forgot you have already read all this and that makes you even more bitter :lol:

Sam L
Sep 8th, 2012, 10:36 AM
You do realise all your posts just make you sound like a bitter Seles obessed freak haha.
Graf's best record, in my opinion, is at least FOUR titles at all FOUR majors. Step up. Will anyone ever match that? No.

Yes Seles stabbing was horrifc and it obviously would effect who won the slams in her absense but you cant simply say oh if she hadnt been stabbed she would have won all them slams, no-one knows, so let it go.

Except no one's saying Seles would've won all the slams. http://www.rif.org/ :tape:

All tennis experts and reasonable tennis fans acknowledge that Graf's records are inflated by the stabbing. That's why you can't hold Serena or anyone to that standard. Still, Graf with that assistance doesn't even have the record for the MOST number of slams. That is held by the Greatest player Margaret Court. Plus four titles at all four majors? Big deal. You know who in the men's has two titles at all four majors? Emerson and Laver. Who thinks Emerson is the greatest? No one. But Federer doesn't have two titles at all majors and he is considered the GOAT.

Oh poor Sam,bitter till the end :lol:

Just face the fact that Graf is proclaimed best woman's tennis player and you would feel a lot easier...

Read tennis-magazine list made this year,see official Australian open site and read every greatest poll on tf where even here,on tf where there are most different fans Graf still wins EVERY poll...

:wavey: and :kiss:

Ohhh,sorry,I almost forgot you have already read all this and that makes you even more bitter :lol:

Do you actually have anything to respond to the H2H record as No. 1 or you're just spraying BS as usual? As if any of what you said actually matters to me. The reason why I like Seles has nothing to do with her being the best or her tennis records. :lol:

jj74
Sep 8th, 2012, 10:39 AM
No, i think Serena will win a few more (i fear saying this, because last year i said something similar and she ended losing with Stosur), but sooner than later her age will catch her. There's a time that you can't improve anymore, and you will face new young players. Serena is a extraordinary athlete, but tennis change really fast.
A couple of years ago, it seemed that Federer is going to win every slam, and then he started to lose with Nadal in other surfaces beside clay. Two years ago it seemed that Nole was destined to only win the slams when Roger and Rafa fail or were out of form, and suddenly, last year he became the dominant force.

Serena is a legend, she is where all the greats are, but Steffi won 22 GS, Serena has 14, there's too much difference. But maybe she is able to catch Martina and Chris, or even Helen

pov
Sep 8th, 2012, 11:14 AM
"Any chance"? Yes there's a chance but I don't see it happening. Sill . . Graf retired at a younger age than Williams is now. I think Williams will most likely surpass Navratilova though.

Anabelcroft
Sep 8th, 2012, 11:25 AM
Do you actually have anything to respond to the H2H record as No. 1 or you're just spraying BS as usual? The reason why I like Seles has nothing to do with her being the best or her tennis records. :lol:

I am just posting facts which you refer as spraying ;)

Nobody said that you should not like Seles,but you are being funny trying to persuade people to think in what you would want yourself to believe,but you look funny...

Anabelcroft
Sep 8th, 2012, 11:28 AM
As if any of what you said actually matters to me.

I am convinced it actually does! Either you wouldn't bitterly try to argue about something that is not even arguable ;)

sweetadri06
Sep 8th, 2012, 11:30 AM
I see alot of you are saying she can catch Evert/Navartilova. I think next year is her last real shot to make a dent in that gap. It's only going to get harder because age catches up eventually. Look at Roger, even though he won Wimbledon, it feels like he's on his last legs, losing to Tomas in QF, he used to only lose to Nadal. It's going to happen to Serena too, but it might take a bit longer.

Sam L
Sep 8th, 2012, 11:33 AM
I am just posting facts which you refer as spraying ;)

Nobody said that you should not like Seles,but you are being funny trying to persuade people to think in what you would want yourself to believe,but you look funny...

What you call facts, her winning a poll, whilst a fact is a meaningless one. I also posted facts like the Grand Slam H2H whilst Seles was No. 1 and that Sabatini wins all came outside of slams. Yet you had no response to that.

I want myself to believe what? And what am I exactly try to persuade people to think? :confused:

I am just stating facts. But guess what, people don't like it when some people bring up the Holocaust either. There are certain things in history certain people want to brush under the carpet and pretend it didn't happen.

Well I'm not one of those.

pov
Sep 8th, 2012, 11:36 AM
All tennis experts and reasonable tennis fans acknowledge that Graf's records are inflated by the stabbing.
That's a flat-out lie! The truth is that some tennis "experts" and some reasonable tennis fans think that Graf likely would not have won as many majors. Anyone who thinks they can say without a doubt what would have happened is a moron. And spinning it as "records are inflated" isn't reasonable, logical or sensible.

pov
Sep 8th, 2012, 11:39 AM
I am just stating facts.
No. You are not. You're spinning facts, seeing them in a specific light, in order to support your viewpoint. Yeah we all do that to some degree or the other. The thing is that you either don't realize, or are unwilling to admit, that's what you're doing.

Calypso
Sep 8th, 2012, 11:40 AM
I'm a Rena fan, but have to say it seems highly unlikely. 8 more GS wins at 30 plus is highly improbable.
BTW, the all-time record for GS wins is 24 by Margaret Court (AUS):-).

Sam L
Sep 8th, 2012, 11:41 AM
That's a flat-out lie! The truth is that some tennis "experts" and some reasonable tennis fans think that Graf likely would not have won as many majors. Anyone who thinks they can say without a doubt what would have happened is a moron. And spinning it as "records are inflated" isn't reasonable, logical or sensible.
So why don't you tell me what you think? You think that Graf definitely would've won 4 straight slams if Seles wasn't stabbed? Keeping in mind, this is a player who beat Graf in very high quality Australian Open and French Open finals. Because if you can't say she definitely would've won 4 straight majors, you think her records are inflated.

Also, please show me a respectable tennis expert who said that the stabbing did NOT change women's tennis history. Of course, no one on TV or in the press is going to say Graf's records are inflated. They all take the diplomatic route by saying women's tennis history was changed.

Sam L
Sep 8th, 2012, 11:42 AM
No. You are not. You're spinning facts, seeing them in a specific light, in order to support your viewpoint. Yeah we all do that to some degree or the other. The thing is that you either don't realize, or are unwilling to admit, that's what you're doing.

Ok, which facts am I spinning? Examples?

pov
Sep 8th, 2012, 11:44 AM
BTW, the all-time record for GS wins is 24 by Margaret Court (AUS):-).
She rocked it hard.
Court won 62 Grand Slam events (24 singles, 19 doubles, 19 mixed doubles), which is a record for a male or female player. Her 24 Grand Slam singles titles and 19 in mixed doubles are also all-time records across both sexes. She achieved a career Grand Slam in singles, doubles and mixed doubles, is one of two women to have achieved the Grand Slam in singles in the Open Era (alongside Steffi Graf), and is the only woman to have achieved the mixed doubles Grand Slam, which she did twice.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b71/tennisvideos/Margaret_Court_Serve.jpg

Olórin
Sep 8th, 2012, 11:44 AM
I see alot of you are saying she can catch Evert/Navartilova. I think next year is her last real shot to make a dent in that gap. It's only going to get harder because age catches up eventually. Look at Roger, even though he won Wimbledon, it feels like he's on his last legs, losing to Tomas in QF, he used to only lose to Nadal. It's going to happen to Serena too, but it might take a bit longer.

I agree, I think the AO and Wimbledon next year will determine whether she can pass (19) or equal (18) Evertilova.

Mattographer
Sep 8th, 2012, 11:50 AM
You are the last person who should be laughing at anyone on a message board or in life. And yes continue "communicating" with GIFs because it makes a lot more sense than when you try to communicate with words. Loser.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lu0ultHPFJ1qzku76o2_250.gif

You're one pathetic loser here :haha:

Anabelcroft
Sep 8th, 2012, 12:17 PM
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lu0ultHPFJ1qzku76o2_250.gif

You're one pathetic loser here :haha:

Sammy against the world-Part 1 ;)

Sam L
Sep 8th, 2012, 12:26 PM
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lu0ultHPFJ1qzku76o2_250.gif

You're one pathetic loser here :haha:

Whatever retard. Now run along and go watch some subtitled films. :lol:

Sammy against the world-Part 1 ;)

Hardly, considering all the good reps I'm getting. It might be tiring for some but I like talking about history. It's important to understand things that happened in the past and never forget. I know you want to forget about the stabbing and Margaret's 24 Grand Slam singles titles but these are facts and they will never change.

Anabelcroft
Sep 8th, 2012, 02:03 PM
I know you want to forget about the stabbing and Margaret's 24 Grand Slam singles titles but these are facts and they will never change.

I don't have the reason to forget it because my favorite player has been officially proclaimed best in the history of women's game,so I don't need to think about it in that sort of way...

Since yours isn't and since you don't like people's general choice,it's who is trying to persuade people that 1 + 1 is not 2,but 3 ;)

Excelscior
Sep 8th, 2012, 02:31 PM
So why don't you tell me what you think? You think that Graf definitely would've won 4 straight slams if Seles wasn't stabbed? Keeping in mind, this is a player who beat Graf in very high quality Australian Open and French Open finals. Because if you can't say she definitely would've won 4 straight majors, you think her records are inflated.

Also, please show me a respectable tennis expert who said that the stabbing did NOT change women's tennis history. Of course, no one on TV or in the press is going to say Graf's records are inflated. They all take the diplomatic route by saying women's tennis history was changed.

Answer: All the people that say Graf is the Best Female Tennis Player of all time (including Chris Evert, M. Navratilova, Bud Collins, the most recent tennis channel poll, etc.).

If they all felt "The Stabbing" altered tennis history, the way you say so, most people wouldn't vote for Graf. It would be too easy to vote for Court, Evert or Navratilova. But they don't! They say Graf is the best of all time anyway. That answers your question.

Why? There are four things that you're forgetting:

1) Graf was going through a slump at that period, because of family reasons.

2) Graf had better head to head record vs Seles BEFORE the stabbing.

3) Even if you dismiss everything above, there's no guarantee that Seles would of kept winning if there was no stabbing. Just ask Hingis, McEnroe, Courier, Borg, Becker, Austin, and a host of others. Winning is never guaranteed in sports. And Seles was physically healed, rather quickly after the stabbing as well (not that it takes away from her mental well being). But sports waits on no one. You gotta play and win.

4) Most importantly, they're not judging Graf strictly for the amount of majors acquired. They're judging Graf for her overall all tennis game, athleticism, drive, tenacity, excellence, championship make up, and her records.

That's why they thinks she's the best. Graf had a great combination of every thing you would want from a player in the sport

Simple! :yeah: And you don't have to agree. But don't make stuff up, with false arguments to reinforce your personal points of view, cause you don't like it.

PS: Regardless of what you can say about Graf; Court, Evert and Navratilova, can all make their claim for Greatest Female Tennis Player Of All Time. I have no problem with that. But for you to infer that "No One Thinks Graf Is", that's a joke.

pov
Sep 8th, 2012, 02:34 PM
I know you want to forget about the stabbing and Margaret's 24 Grand Slam singles titles but these are facts

Yes Seles being stabbed by a deranged Graf fan is a fact. But that Graf wouldn't have won 22 majors if Seles hadn't been stabbed is just supposition. If you cling so tightly to the facts then admit when you're using conjecture as a basis for your viewpoint.

Anabelcroft
Sep 8th, 2012, 02:35 PM
2) Graf had better head to head record vs Seles BEFORE the stabbing.



Even better H2H while Monica was number 1,before stabbing...

Michalka
Sep 8th, 2012, 02:37 PM
Nope....I love Serenka but i don't think it's possible for her to catch up to Graf at this point of her career...assuming she wins her 15th major tonight, she MAY have a chance to catch up with Evert, but Graf is too far away for her

Anabelcroft
Sep 8th, 2012, 02:38 PM
3) Even if you dismiss everything above, there's no guarantee that Seles would of kept winning if there was no stabbing. Just ask Hingis, McEnroe, Courier, Borg, Becker, Austin, and a host of others

So true...if Hingis got stabbed in february '99 everybody would say that she WOULD HAVE won many more Slams just because she was winning most of the in previous 2 years,but in reality,after AO '99 she has never won a Slam...

So,nothing is sure if it didn't occur!And that's why would,should,could just do not count in tennis ;)

Anabelcroft
Sep 8th, 2012, 02:39 PM
Yes Seles being stabbed by a deranged Graf fan is a fact. But that Graf wouldn't have won 22 majors if Seles hadn't been stabbed is just supposition. If you cling so tightly to the facts then admit when you're using conjecture as a basis for your viewpoint.

So true...

freefallball
Sep 8th, 2012, 02:46 PM
She may have a chance to catch up with Graf she completes another Serena slam.

pov
Sep 8th, 2012, 02:47 PM
So why don't you tell me what you think? You think that Graf definitely would've won 4 straight slams if Seles wasn't stabbed? Keeping in mind, this is a player who beat Graf in very high quality Australian Open and French Open finals. Because if you can't say she definitely would've won 4 straight majors, you think her records are inflated.

Also, please show me a respectable tennis expert who said that the stabbing did NOT change women's tennis history. Of course, no one on TV or in the press is going to say Graf's records are inflated. They all take the diplomatic route by saying women's tennis history was changed.

Oh man. Your lack of of comprehension is amazing. Let's break it down for you:

- Even if Seles had beaten Graf every time they played it would still be irrelevant. It doesn't mean it's certain she would win the next time they played.

- Do I think that Graf would have definitely won 4 straight if Seles hadn't been stabbed? No, my point is that no one can make it a fact that she definitely would not have done so. We just don't know.

- "Inflated" means more than what a person actually earned (or won). To make the case that because Seles went into a psychological tailspin in any way means Graf didn't legitimately win those titles is simply demented. It's no different than any of the regular cases in which a player is not in the mix because of injury or ill-health.

- "changing women's tennis history" does not mean "Graf would not have won 4 more majors"

I'm not saying that you shouldn't have the opinion that Graf wouldn't have won those titles. I am saying that it's an opinion not a a fact.

cehowardrx7
Sep 8th, 2012, 02:54 PM
First off, Steffi's slam record is FOREVER TAINTED, and always will be.

Steffi grand slam total was ASSISTED by her main rival being stabbed.

So, just like you say "Evilrena", in all due respect, and the name surely fits, "Graf/Stabber"

How many slams would Sharapova have if it wasn't for SERENA??

You see what I mean. The truth is the truth.

I don't know why every time Serena shines, these creeps come out the woodwork with the Graf this and Graf that..

I will say it again, Graf's record with be forever tainted. Graf's record will be known as "STAB-ASSISSTED-SLAMS".. There, I gave you a new term, use it well!!:cool:

Excelscior
Sep 8th, 2012, 02:57 PM
You wanna say that any louder? :rolleyes:

Veesus
Sep 8th, 2012, 02:59 PM
I think she'll catch Evert & co, but will not surpass Graf. I think if Serena gets 18+, she will have to be considered the greatest ever...

it-girl
Sep 8th, 2012, 03:06 PM
If she stays as fit as she is now and healthy, it is a possibility. I would love to see it happen because I feel that she comes from the strongest generation ever on the women's tour and it would be very fitting.

Geisha
Sep 8th, 2012, 03:31 PM
So true...if Hingis got stabbed in february '99 everybody would say that she WOULD HAVE won many more Slams just because she was winning most of the in previous 2 years,but in reality,after AO '99 she has never won a Slam...

So,nothing is sure if it didn't occur!And that's why would,should,could just do not count in tennis ;)

I mostly agree, but to be honest - Hingis was hardly dominant after 1997. Seles was supremely dominant going into the stabbing. There IS almost a guarantee that she would have won one or two more GS that year alone. I mean, it is a woulda/coulda/shoulda thing, true. But, let's be real.

Rollo
Sep 8th, 2012, 03:36 PM
Graf is not the record holder.

Court is with 24.

I don't see Serena getting to 24. The real question to me is does she get to around 18. If she does, and bags another French along the way, she's GOAT worthy in my view. She'd being sharing that stage with a few others, but then no one female will ever have that title totally to herself.

Either way she's putting up amazing numbers. A few years ago there was some debate about her status with Henin on the scene. Now there's no doubt on that score.

Here's to a good final!

cehowardrx7
Sep 8th, 2012, 03:45 PM
You wanna say that any louder? :rolleyes:

It seems like they dont' get it. That why I had to say it louder!!:)

BTW, they can post that crap about how great Steffi until they blue in the face, the fact of the matter, is everytime Steffi's record comes up, it will always be tainted by the stabbing. Dam, the stabber ADMITTED, that the reason he stabbed Seles was to keep her from beating Graf..

Rollo
Sep 8th, 2012, 03:50 PM
You see what I mean. The Truth is the truth

The Truth is all the Goat-worthy women had a good amount of luck to go with their hard earned titles.

All of them. no exceptions.

Sure Graf's slams were inflated by the stabbing. But she won THE Grand slam in 1988 before that. That alone allows her to lay claim to GOAT.

The fact she won slams for 10 consecutive years shows her stature. Try and tear her down if you like. Anyone trying to totally diminish for their favorite her though had a tiny problem-she beat them all. Serena, Martina, Monica-Graf had winning or tied head to heads with all of them.

I'd never assert Graf is THE GOAT, but she belongs in the tiny herd that can lay claim to it. Put her at the front or back, but she's part of the conversation.

And that's the truth.


Bah.....

producer88
Sep 8th, 2012, 03:59 PM
The Truth is all the Goat-worthy women had a good amount of luck to go with their hard earned titles.

All of them. no exceptions.

Sure Graf's slams were inflated by the stabbing. But she won THE Grand slam in 1988 before that. That alone allows her to lay claim to GOAT.

The fact she won slams for 10 consecutive years shows her stature. Try and tear her down if you like. Anyone trying to totally diminish for their favorite her though had a tiny problem-she beat them all. Serena, Martina, Monica-Graf had winning or tied head to heads with all of them.

I'd never assert Graf is THE GOAT, but she belongs in the tiny herd that can lay claim to it. Put her at the front or back, but she's part of the conversation.

And that's the truth.


Bah.....

I wish Stefi & Serena played a lot more matches. It's kind of funny that their h2h is 1-1 since Steffi is consider to be the greatest of her era, and Serena the greatest of hers.

It's like the 2 best women of tennis of the past 25 years pass the tourch, and their h2h count is 1-1, so we can't really debate who's the best.

I'll say this, I'm sorry but if you take peak Serena, and peak Graf I don't see Serena losing. I just can't see a focus & determine Serena lose to anyone.

But you're 100% right Graf belongs in the elite GOAT conversations, and is a possible front-runner, I personally still give it to Serena, just because I don't see anyone beating her.

KournikovaFan91
Sep 8th, 2012, 04:04 PM
Sure Graf's slams were inflated by the stabbing. But she won THE Grand slam in 1988 before that. That alone allows her to lay claim to GOAT.
.

I agree with this, the 1988 Season is unreal, and that is always the deciding factor with me in GOAT discussions and why in my opinion she beats Serena to the number one spot. I regard Serena as second even with this number of slams.

Excelscior
Sep 8th, 2012, 05:48 PM
I wish Stefi & Serena played a lot more matches. It's kind of funny that their h2h is 1-1 since Steffi is consider to be the greatest of her era, and Serena the greatest of hers.

It's like the 2 best women of tennis of the past 25 years pass the tourch, and their h2h count is 1-1, so we can't really debate who's the best.

I'll say this, I'm sorry but if you take peak Serena, and peak Graf I don't see Serena losing. I just can't see a focus & determine Serena lose to anyone.

But you're 100% right Graf belongs in the elite GOAT conversations, and is a possible front-runner, I personally still give it to Serena, just because I don't see anyone beating her.

:confused: :confused:

Who had more focus and determination than Graf? :lol:

I mean if this is your argument, than you're only remembering Serena, cause Steffi achieved those Grand Slam Numbers, along with all the other records and high placements she has in Tournament wins at 900-110, year ending number ones (8), 66 consecutive games winning streak, 13 straight GS finals appearances, most weeks at #1, 4 majors wins at every GS even, etc.

Who had more focus and determination than Graf? Just think how determined Graf had to be to win 22 majors, and everything else she achieved?

Serena may have 14 majors, but many of her other records are rather pedestrian or not even greater than some of her contemporaries, except the 14 GS titles.

Maybe you can argue other things on Serena's behalf? But if focus and determination is your criteria, I think your way off base with that one. Just look at the French Open numbers alone? Why didn't Serena dedicate herself to be a better Clay Court player, and/or more comfortable at Roland Garros (and maybe she will), if she was so focused and determined? She won everywhere else!

Anabelcroft
Sep 8th, 2012, 06:52 PM
I mostly agree, but to be honest - Hingis was hardly dominant after 1997. Seles was supremely dominant going into the stabbing. There IS almost a guarantee that she would have won one or two more GS that year alone. I mean, it is a woulda/coulda/shoulda thing, true. But, let's be real.

My point is the same...being world number 1 and with 5 Slams behind her,did anyone guess that it would be her last GS victory?

Just no...

Anabelcroft
Sep 8th, 2012, 06:55 PM
First off, Steffi's slam record is FOREVER TAINTED, and always will be.

Steffi grand slam total was ASSISTED by her main rival being stabbed.

So, just like you say "Evilrena", in all due respect, and the name surely fits, "Graf/Stabber"

How many slams would Sharapova have if it wasn't for SERENA??

You see what I mean. The truth is the truth.

I don't know why every time Serena shines, these creeps come out the woodwork with the Graf this and Graf that..

I will say it again, Graf's record with be forever tainted. Graf's record will be known as "STAB-ASSISSTED-SLAMS".. There, I gave you a new term, use it well!!:cool:


Ohhhhhh, grandpa , you are back from the dead ;)

I understand that at that age you might not hear very well,but most of us do,so,please,don't shout ;)

Here is one article where most of the people ignored "your new terms":

http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/news/articles/2012-01-24/201201241327373295547.html

I am sure will cheer you up ;)

cehowardrx7
Sep 8th, 2012, 08:13 PM
Ohhhhhh, grandpa , you are back from the dead ;)

I understand that at that age you might not hear very well,but most of us do,so,please,don't shout ;)

Here is one article where most of the people ignored "your new terms":

http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/news/articles/2012-01-24/201201241327373295547.html

I am sure will cheer you up ;)

Anabel, my dear uninformed tennis fan, no article can take away the fact that Seles was stabbed to advance Graf in slams and rankings. That is history. To TRUMP your article, try this on for size. A quote I got from "wikdpedia"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steffi_Graf

In the absence of Seles, Graf won three of four Grand Slam events to re-establish herself as the dominant player in women's tennis

cehowardrx7
Sep 8th, 2012, 08:20 PM
:confused: :confused:

Who had more focus and determination than Graf? :lol:



Seles had more focus and determination than Graf..If you noticed, the stabber didn't go after the other players, such as, Evert/Martina,he went after Seles, !!

KournikovaFan91
Sep 8th, 2012, 08:24 PM
All these posters obsessed with the stabbing seem rather unhinged :unsure:

Anabelcroft
Sep 8th, 2012, 08:24 PM
Anabel, my dear uninformed tennis fan, no article can take away the fact that Seles was stabbed to advance Graf in slams and rankings. That is history. To TRUMP your article, try this on for size. A quote I got from "wikdpedia"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steffi_Graf

In the absence of Seles, Graf won three of four Grand Slam events to re-establish herself as the dominant player in women's tennis

:lol::lol::lol:

I am not uninformed...I have heard about wikipedia,but not about "wikdpedia" as you reffer to...

In case you really did mean wikipedia,everybody can write everything there so I don't apply that as a resource...

To prove you this,I deleted part of that sentence,which means that I can change it,like you can also,so it's not any kind of resource! Bye bye :wavey:

donellcarey
Sep 8th, 2012, 08:29 PM
my bad.
i thought the one that got stabbed was Graf

Noooooooooooooo :bigcry:

cehowardrx7
Sep 8th, 2012, 08:31 PM
:lol::lol::lol:

I am not uninformed...I have heard about wikipedia,but not about "wikdpedia" as you reffer to...

In case you really did mean wikipedia,everybody can write everything there so I don't apply that as a resource...

To prove you this,I deleted part of that sentence,which means that I can change it,like you can also,so it's not any kind of resource! Bye bye :wavey:

You have no chance here, not even in my league!!!! Sorry...:lol:

Oizo
Sep 8th, 2012, 08:37 PM
Since 11 of Court's were at AO during a time many top players didn't play there I personally regard Steffi's record as better, regardless of Court's political opinions.

:cool:

C. Drone
Sep 8th, 2012, 11:28 PM
I see alot of you are saying she can catch Evert/Navartilova. I think next year is her last real shot to make a dent in that gap. It's only going to get harder because age catches up eventually. Look at Roger, even though he won Wimbledon, it feels like he's on his last legs, losing to Tomas in QF, he used to only lose to Nadal. It's going to happen to Serena too, but it might take a bit longer.

Except it looks like gap between Serena and the rest is much bigger than Federer vs rest right now. And "He used to only lose to Nadal" is so 2008-2009 anyway. :lol: If Serena has that 4 year, it could be enough time probably.
Of course then it depends how fast she'll regress physically, mentaly or something else happens.

friendsita
Sep 8th, 2012, 11:31 PM
She'll win 18 at least... 22, I don't thinks so.

Volcana
Sep 8th, 2012, 11:33 PM
Margaret Court has the record number of Singles Grand Slams with 24. She also has the record for the most Grand Slam titles (singles, doubles and mixed) with 62. I think.Pretty sure Nav got to 63 with those last couple mixed titles when she was in her 40's.

Sam L
Sep 8th, 2012, 11:47 PM
Answer: All the people that say Graf is the Best Female Tennis Player of all time (including Chris Evert, M. Navratilova, Bud Collins, the most recent tennis channel poll, etc.).

If they all felt "The Stabbing" altered tennis history, the way you say so, most people wouldn't vote for Graf. It would be too easy to vote for Court, Evert or Navratilova. But they don't! They say Graf is the best of all time anyway. That answers your question.

Why? There are four things that you're forgetting:

1) Graf was going through a slump at that period, because of family reasons.

2) Graf had better head to head record vs Seles BEFORE the stabbing.

3) Even if you dismiss everything above, there's no guarantee that Seles would of kept winning if there was no stabbing. Just ask Hingis, McEnroe, Courier, Borg, Becker, Austin, and a host of others. Winning is never guaranteed in sports. And Seles was physically healed, rather quickly after the stabbing as well (not that it takes away from her mental well being). But sports waits on no one. You gotta play and win.

4) Most importantly, they're not judging Graf strictly for the amount of majors acquired. They're judging Graf for her overall all tennis game, athleticism, drive, tenacity, excellence, championship make up, and her records.

That's why they thinks she's the best. Graf had a great combination of every thing you would want from a player in the sport

Simple! :yeah: And you don't have to agree. But don't make stuff up, with false arguments to reinforce your personal points of view, cause you don't like it.

PS: Regardless of what you can say about Graf; Court, Evert and Navratilova, can all make their claim for Greatest Female Tennis Player Of All Time. I have no problem with that. But for you to infer that "No One Thinks Graf Is", that's a joke.

You can still have her as GOAT without the stabbing equation because she won the Grand Slam in '88. I ask again, where did ANY of those people say that the stabbing DID NOT change the course of women's tennis history?

I wait for your answer.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't have the opinion that Graf wouldn't have won those titles. I am saying that it's an opinion not a a fact.

All that to prove this point? And you're trying to lecture me about comprehension? :tape: Duh, of course, it's an opinion. Where did I say it's a fact? But it is an opinion held by many. When I said "I was stating facts", I was referring to Seles's grand slam H2H record as No. 1 and Sabatini's five match winning streak against Graf. http://www.rif.org/

Back to school.

Volcana
Sep 9th, 2012, 12:09 AM
First off, Steffi's slam record is FOREVER TAINTED, and always will be.For you, I'm sure that's true. Tennis history, however, will not be written the way you see it.

How many people, nowadays, talk about all the slam Maureen Connolly WOULD have won, if not for the accident that ended her career? How many people talk about how Doris Hart or Althea Gibson's slams are tainted because of Connolly absence?

Zero. Zilch. Nada.

What happened to Seles was a tragedy, but the length of time she did not play was here decision. I offer the following.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Pierce"On September 25, 2000, Pierce was stabbed 11 times in the face, neck, and back and had a bottle smashed over his head while at the Buzz Club, a late night dance club in Boston's theatre district. He had to undergo lung surgery to repair the damage.[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Pierce#cite_note-27)[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Pierce#cite_note-28) Nevertheless, Pierce was the only Celtic to start all 82 games in the 2000–01 season (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000%E2%80%9301_NBA_season). Also, witnesses say that Pierce was attempting to separate the fighters when he was stabbed.[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Pierce#cite_note-29)Tony Battie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Battie), Pierce's teammate at the time, along with Battie’s brother, saved him by rushing him to a nearby hospital."
The American basketball season starts in November. This guys was stabbed ELEVEN times, and had a bottle broken over his head, and had to undergo lung surgery. AND STARTED EVERY GAME OF THE SEASON.

It's not Graf's fault Seles chose not to play. It's not Graf's fault Seles gained all the weight she did, which undoubtedly kept her from winning more slams than the one she did when she returned.

And why oh why do I let myself get sucked into this nonsense?

Sam L
Sep 9th, 2012, 12:16 AM
For you, I'm sure that's true. Tennis history, however, will not be written the way you see it.

How many people, nowadays, talk about all the slam Maureen Connolly WOULD have won, if not for the accident that ended her career? How many people talk about how Doris Hart or Althea Gibson's slams are tainted because of Connolly absence?

Zero. Zilch. Nada.

What happened to Seles was a tragedy, but the length of time she did not play was here decision. I offer the following.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Pierce"On September 25, 2000, Pierce was stabbed 11 times in the face, neck, and back and had a bottle smashed over his head while at the Buzz Club, a late night dance club in Boston's theatre district. He had to undergo lung surgery to repair the damage.[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Pierce#cite_note-27)[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Pierce#cite_note-28) Nevertheless, Pierce was the only Celtic to start all 82 games in the 2000–01 season (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000%E2%80%9301_NBA_season). Also, witnesses say that Pierce was attempting to separate the fighters when he was stabbed.[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Pierce#cite_note-29)Tony Battie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Battie), Pierce's teammate at the time, along with Battie’s brother, saved him by rushing him to a nearby hospital."
The American basketball season starts in November. This guys was stabbed ELEVEN times, and had a bottle broken over his head, and had to undergo lung surgery. AND STARTED EVERY GAME OF THE SEASON.

It's not Graf's fault Seles chose not to play. It's not Graf's fault Seles gained all the weight she did, which undoubtedly kept her from winning more slams than the one she did when she returned.

And why oh why do I let myself get sucked into this nonsense?
That's true. But you also can't use her records to diminish others' records like Navratilova-Evert (who actually had each other as rivals throughout their careers) or Serena Williams who had various strong rivals throughout their careers.

I'm all for people accepting Graf's 22 Grand Slam singles titles because it's a fact but Graf fans refuse to give Court due for her 24 Grand Slam singles titles.

Either accept that Court is GOAT with 24 the record or be open to discussion with anyone including Serena. But they're very dismissive of Serena and yet they refuse to see how Graf got her records with little or no competition.

I'm all for and have always been for Rollo's argument that there's always a group of players with claims to GOAT and the discussion should be around that but Graf fans are obsessed with her records and statistics but she doesn't even have the BEST records where it really matters. :shrug:

Archer16
Sep 9th, 2012, 12:32 AM
irrelevant, those australian opens were grand slam tournaments, therefore she has 24 in total, were talking about an objective figure of 24 slams, the subjectivity you're employing belongs in the countless posts in other threads which list the lack of depth in court, and others, GS wins

but 24 is 24
Not only they were against weak fields, only 11 of the 24 were in the Open Era.
If we were to ignore that, then Serena also has Helen Wills-Moody and her 19 slams to pass.

As for the title question, :happy:
For you, I'm sure that's true. Tennis history, however, will not be written the way you see it.

How many people, nowadays, talk about all the slam Maureen Connolly WOULD have won, if not for the accident that ended her career? How many people talk about how Doris Hart or Althea Gibson's slams are tainted because of Connolly absence?

Zero. Zilch. Nada.

What happened to Seles was a tragedy, but the length of time she did not play was here decision. I offer the following.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Pierce"On September 25, 2000, Pierce was stabbed 11 times in the face, neck, and back and had a bottle smashed over his head while at the Buzz Club, a late night dance club in Boston's theatre district. He had to undergo lung surgery to repair the damage.[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Pierce#cite_note-27)[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Pierce#cite_note-28) Nevertheless, Pierce was the only Celtic to start all 82 games in the 2000–01 season (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000%E2%80%9301_NBA_season). Also, witnesses say that Pierce was attempting to separate the fighters when he was stabbed.[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Pierce#cite_note-29)Tony Battie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Battie), Pierce's teammate at the time, along with Battie’s brother, saved him by rushing him to a nearby hospital."
The American basketball season starts in November. This guys was stabbed ELEVEN times, and had a bottle broken over his head, and had to undergo lung surgery. AND STARTED EVERY GAME OF THE SEASON.

It's not Graf's fault Seles chose not to play. It's not Graf's fault Seles gained all the weight she did, which undoubtedly kept her from winning more slams than the one she did when she returned.

And why oh why do I let myself get sucked into this nonsense?
At least one voice of reason in the sea... :yeah:
Pretty sure Nav got to 63 with those last couple mixed titles when she was in her 40's.
She "only" got to 59.

Sam L
Sep 9th, 2012, 12:36 AM
Not only they were against weak fields, only 11 of the 24 were in the Open Era.


Shows how much you know - nothing. Open era doesn't mean anything in women's tennis since there was no Pro Tour. Pre-68 draws were the same as post-68 draws.

:wavey:

Anabelcroft
Sep 9th, 2012, 01:21 AM
Shows how much you know - nothing. Open era doesn't mean anything in women's tennis since there was no Pro Tour. Pre-68 draws were the same as post-68 draws.

:wavey:

Oh yes,32 players draw with 1st round bye is the same as 128 players draw with no bye ;)

Bye Bye Sammy :wavey:

Anabelcroft
Sep 9th, 2012, 01:27 AM
You have no chance here, not even in my league!!!! Sorry...:lol:

Oh God :facepalm:

http://www.tennischannel.com/goat/gallery4.aspx

just to remind you,your league is number 19!

double figure :lol:

Sam L
Sep 9th, 2012, 01:28 AM
Oh yes,32 players draw with 1st round bye is the same as 128 players draw with no bye ;)

Bye Bye Sammy :wavey:
In elite tennis the real competition is in the latter rounds. Not in the earlier rounds. It doesn't matter if you have to play 7 matches to win a slam or 5 matches to win a slam. What matters is that your main rival/s are there are not.

The best example of this is that the previous format Tour Championships have been the most prestigious event on tour outside the slams. There are only 4 rounds.

It was more prestigious than other events with 5 or 6 rounds because the best players turned up there.

And yes, it is the same because it is still a Grand Slam event.

DOUBLEFIST
Sep 9th, 2012, 01:33 AM
For you, I'm sure that's true. Tennis history, however, will not be written the way you see it.

How many people, nowadays, talk about all the slam Maureen Connolly WOULD have won, if not for the accident that ended her career? How many people talk about how Doris Hart or Althea Gibson's slams are tainted because of Connolly absence?

Zero. Zilch. Nada.

What happened to Seles was a tragedy, but the length of time she did not play was here decision. I offer the following.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Pierce"On September 25, 2000, Pierce was stabbed 11 times in the face, neck, and back and had a bottle smashed over his head while at the Buzz Club, a late night dance club in Boston's theatre district. He had to undergo lung surgery to repair the damage.[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Pierce#cite_note-27)[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Pierce#cite_note-28) Nevertheless, Pierce was the only Celtic to start all 82 games in the 2000–01 season (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000%E2%80%9301_NBA_season). Also, witnesses say that Pierce was attempting to separate the fighters when he was stabbed.[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Pierce#cite_note-29)Tony Battie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Battie), Pierce's teammate at the time, along with Battie’s brother, saved him by rushing him to a nearby hospital."
The American basketball season starts in November. This guys was stabbed ELEVEN times, and had a bottle broken over his head, and had to undergo lung surgery. AND STARTED EVERY GAME OF THE SEASON.

It's not Graf's fault Seles chose not to play. It's not Graf's fault Seles gained all the weight she did, which undoubtedly kept her from winning more slams than the one she did when she returned.

And why oh why do I let myself get sucked into this nonsense?

I think in this instance life experience matters, and therefore you should be careful in comparing a teenage, sheltered life female's sense of surmountable hardships to a street hardened, 24 year old, South Central LA, KNOWN GANGSTER'S (Westside Piru I believe) sense of surmountable hardship. Very different psychological resources to draw strength and fortitude from.

ziros
Sep 9th, 2012, 01:36 AM
Her best years are behind her,she's won 14(15) in a 13 year span. She's in her twilight years now,it's hardly likely she's winning another 8 in a 4 year(max) period. Anywhere from 0-5 is a safer bet

Archer16
Sep 9th, 2012, 01:45 AM
Oh yes,32 players draw with 1st round bye is the same as 128 players draw with no bye ;)

Bye Bye Sammy :wavey:
It's much more than just the number of rounds.
Most of the top 10 didn't bother with this tournament in the 70s, resulting in such legendary champions as Chris O'Neil and Barbara Jordan.
Navratilova played there just once in her first 7 seasons on tour, Evert just once in her first 10 (making only six appearances in total, compared to at least 13 in each of the other three, and getting to the final each time).

French Open also had a weak period in the 70s, but a shorter one.

The poor ignorant Sam bad-repped me :hug: :lol:

Sam L
Sep 9th, 2012, 02:11 AM
It's much more than just the number of rounds.
Most of the top 10 didn't bother with this tournament in the 70s, resulting in such legendary champions as Chris O'Neil and Barbara Jordan.
Navratilova played there just once in her first 7 seasons on tour, Evert just once in her first 10 (making only six appearances in total, compared to at least 13 in each of the other three, and getting to the final each time).

French Open also had a weak period in the 70s, but a shorter one.

The poor ignorant Sam bad-repped me :hug: :lol:

Ignorant is someone who thinks that pre-Open era and open era are different in women's tennis. :lol:

Chris O'Neil and Barbara Jordan won in the late 70s by that time, Court was long retired.

In the years when Court didn't win the Australian, other winners included Nancy Richey, Virginia Wade and Billie-Jean King - all were multiple Grand Slam champions and King is the chief rival of Margaret Court during this era.

Also, "most of the top 10 didn't bother" comment is so lame and ignorant on so many levels. Court was virtually retired by the time official computer rankings came around. What happened in the late 70s doesn't affect her legacy at all.

And you are arguing that Graf's achievements should not be diminished because her chief rival didn't play at all for 10 majors and yet you think Court's achievements should be diminished because her chief rival didn't choose to play in a tournament every year?

You really need to try harder.

Alarmed
Sep 9th, 2012, 03:37 AM
I see alot of you are saying she can catch Evert/Navartilova. I think next year is her last real shot to make a dent in that gap. It's only going to get harder because age catches up eventually. Look at Roger, even though he won Wimbledon, it feels like he's on his last legs, losing to Tomas in QF, he used to only lose to Nadal. It's going to happen to Serena too, but it might take a bit longer.

What? Federer loses to everyone nowadays. Plus he lost to Thomas at Wimbledon before so it wasn't entirely surprising. Thomas is just a bad match for him. Roger's Grand Slam winning days have been over since AO 2010. Wimbledon was like Steffi's 1999 French. He's played on the tour consistently for over 10 years. He's nowhere near as fresh as Serena.

Serena right now is not even being challenged by the top women. Once they start to even win some games off of her I'll worry.

Thirty All
Sep 9th, 2012, 04:16 AM
No :lol:

Thirty All
Sep 9th, 2012, 04:18 AM
If Seles hadn't been stabbed, she would have been the GOAT. End of discussion.

ziros
Sep 9th, 2012, 04:38 AM
What? Federer loses to everyone nowadays. Plus he lost to Thomas at Wimbledon before so it wasn't entirely surprising. Thomas is just a bad match for him. Roger's Grand Slam winning days have been over since AO 2010. Wimbledon was like Steffi's 1999 French. He's played on the tour consistently for over 10 years. He's nowhere near as fresh as Serena.

Serena right now is not even being challenged by the top women. Once they start to even win some games off of her I'll worry.
Why is that? It shouldn't really be that way around,should it? I mean,she's been a top player longer than he has

Excelscior
Sep 9th, 2012, 05:50 AM
For you, I'm sure that's true. Tennis history, however, will not be written the way you see it.

How many people, nowadays, talk about all the slam Maureen Connolly WOULD have won, if not for the accident that ended her career? How many people talk about how Doris Hart or Althea Gibson's slams are tainted because of Connolly absence?

Zero. Zilch. Nada.

What happened to Seles was a tragedy, but the length of time she did not play was here decision. I offer the following.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Pierce"On September 25, 2000, Pierce was stabbed 11 times in the face, neck, and back and had a bottle smashed over his head while at the Buzz Club, a late night dance club in Boston's theatre district. He had to undergo lung surgery to repair the damage.[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Pierce#cite_note-27)[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Pierce#cite_note-28) Nevertheless, Pierce was the only Celtic to start all 82 games in the 2000–01 season (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000%E2%80%9301_NBA_season). Also, witnesses say that Pierce was attempting to separate the fighters when he was stabbed.[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Pierce#cite_note-29)Tony Battie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Battie), Pierce's teammate at the time, along with Battie’s brother, saved him by rushing him to a nearby hospital."
The American basketball season starts in November. This guys was stabbed ELEVEN times, and had a bottle broken over his head, and had to undergo lung surgery. AND STARTED EVERY GAME OF THE SEASON.

It's not Graf's fault Seles chose not to play. It's not Graf's fault Seles gained all the weight she did, which undoubtedly kept her from winning more slams than the one she did when she returned.

And why oh why do I let myself get sucked into this nonsense?

Thank You.

With all do respect to Monica, her wounds healed in 1wk, and were deemed superficial (we understand the psychological trauma; we do), in comparison to an incident like this.

Some may not like it, but it had to be said for levity's sake.

I guess I just got sucked in again to. I'll quit while I'm behind. :lol:

TheDream
Sep 9th, 2012, 05:58 AM
For you, I'm sure that's true. Tennis history, however, will not be written the way you see it.

How many people, nowadays, talk about all the slam Maureen Connolly WOULD have won, if not for the accident that ended her career? How many people talk about how Doris Hart or Althea Gibson's slams are tainted because of Connolly absence?

Zero. Zilch. Nada.

What happened to Seles was a tragedy, but the length of time she did not play was here decision. I offer the following.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Pierce"On September 25, 2000, Pierce was stabbed 11 times in the face, neck, and back and had a bottle smashed over his head while at the Buzz Club, a late night dance club in Boston's theatre district. He had to undergo lung surgery to repair the damage.[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Pierce#cite_note-27)[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Pierce#cite_note-28) Nevertheless, Pierce was the only Celtic to start all 82 games in the 2000–01 season (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000%E2%80%9301_NBA_season). Also, witnesses say that Pierce was attempting to separate the fighters when he was stabbed.[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Pierce#cite_note-29)Tony Battie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Battie), Pierce's teammate at the time, along with Battie’s brother, saved him by rushing him to a nearby hospital."
The American basketball season starts in November. This guys was stabbed ELEVEN times, and had a bottle broken over his head, and had to undergo lung surgery. AND STARTED EVERY GAME OF THE SEASON.

It's not Graf's fault Seles chose not to play. It's not Graf's fault Seles gained all the weight she did, which undoubtedly kept her from winning more slams than the one she did when she returned.

And why oh why do I let myself get sucked into this nonsense?



Very bad argument. For one, Pierce was attacked in a nightclub, not on the basketball court. Pierce was also a grown man, who had life experiences and not a young teenage girl. Seles stabbing happened on a tennis court, not in a nightclub. That's going to have a much bigger psychological effect than it happening in a nightclub. Hell, Pierce discussed how basketball helped him recover and get over the experience. They really aren't comfortable and it's irresponsible for you to even compare the two circumstances. They aren't comparable at ALL. Tennis is also a sport traveled worldwide, unlike basketball, with many people having access to you without security, so it's a different situation altogether.

Excelscior
Sep 9th, 2012, 05:59 AM
I think in this instance life experience matters, and therefore you should be careful in comparing a teenage, sheltered life female's sense of surmountable hardships to a street hardened, 24 year old, South Central LA, KNOWN GANGSTER'S (Westside Piru I believe) sense of surmountable hardship. Very different psychological resources to draw strength and fortitude from.

Boy I could only imagine if someone else had said what you said about Paul Pierce. :eek:

I think what the Poster is indirectly illustrating, is that maybe a Martina, Chrissie or Steffi, would of been determined, appalled, hardened and (yes, using your analogy of P. Pierce) Gangster enough, to come back quite shortly, as strong or better than ever.

Just saying.

TheDream
Sep 9th, 2012, 06:05 AM
Thank You.

With all do respect to Monica, her wounds healed in 1wk, and were deemed superficial (we understand the psychological trauma; we do), in comparison to an incident like this.

Some may not like it, but it had to be said for levity's sake.

I guess I just got sucked in again to. I'll quit while I'm behind. :lol:



This is true but I just think its ridiculous to down play the Monica tragedy. However, I also think its ridiculous to blame Steffi for this. But, even of Seles returned a couple months after the tragedy, and got herself fit, doesn't mean she wouldn't have still struggled. I think playing the FO, which isn't terribly far from Germany, would've been traumatizing right after as well. Any tournament in Europe would've been difficult methinks.

TheDream
Sep 9th, 2012, 06:12 AM
Boy I could only imagine if someone else had said what you said about Paul Pierce. :eek:

I think what the Poster is indirectly illustrating, is that maybe a Martina, Chrissie or Steffi, would of been determined, appalled, hardened and (yes, using your analogy of P. Pierce) Gangster enough, to come back quite shortly, as strong or better than ever.

Just saying.



Steffi Graf discussed how heavily the blackmail scandal with her dad and the tax evasion really affected her tennis in the early 90's and it was obvious based off her results. Navratilova discussed how her defection from Czech affected her tennis for years and how she was so out of agape because of the stress and getting tired after 2 sets. They both overcame and persevered, but I can't imagine what they'd go through after someone tried to stab them on court, which very well could've led to a fatal conclusion.

Anabelcroft
Sep 9th, 2012, 08:48 AM
In elite tennis the real competition is in the latter rounds. Not in the earlier rounds. It doesn't matter if you have to play 7 matches to win a slam or 5 matches to win a slam. What matters is that your main rival/s are there are not.


Based on that Serena would have never lost to Razzano and would went on to win the FO :lol:

If it matters than face the fact that most of the elite/top players skipped playing at AO until early 80ties...

Not even 32 players draw with first round bye could attract them to play there...and if you watch the draws from the 60ties,they were mostly played by Australians...even at some point only 2 foreigners contested in 2 years!

That's why we see the difference in MC GS account,like 11 AO to just 3 Wimbledons...

Anabelcroft
Sep 9th, 2012, 08:53 AM
If Seles hadn't been stabbed, she would have been the GOAT. End of discussion.

No,it's just an end of your sentence ;)

DOUBLEFIST
Sep 9th, 2012, 09:23 AM
Boy I could only imagine if someone else had said what you said about Paul Pierce. :eek:

I think what the Poster is indirectly illustrating, is that maybe a Martina, Chrissie or Steffi, would of been determined, appalled, hardened and (yes, using your analogy of P. Pierce) Gangster enough, to come back quite shortly, as strong or better than ever.

Just saying.

I Understand what you're saying. What I'm saying about Paul Pierce is a literal description. I'm not using "gangster" as merely a personality description. He is/was Westside Piru or Englewood Family (both are basically Bloods).

Yes, maybe Chrissie, Nav' or Graf would've come back quicker and stronger. we'll never know. But using Paul Pierce as an example strains credulity imho.

Excelscior
Sep 9th, 2012, 01:45 PM
Steffi Graf discussed how heavily the blackmail scandal with her dad and the tax evasion really affected her tennis in the early 90's and it was obvious based off her results. Navratilova discussed how her defection from Czech affected her tennis for years and how she was so out of agape because of the stress and getting tired after 2 sets. They both overcame and persevered, but I can't imagine what they'd go through after someone tried to stab them on court, which very well could've led to a fatal conclusion.

Very well said, and they both overcame their "hurdles" phenomenally.

And everyone reacts to things differently. Defecting from your country and leaving your family, along with having your father blackmailed, your parents divorcing, and under tax evasion-is so personal, and could be worse to some people than some crazy fool trying to stab them with a butter knife on a tennis court. At least it's a stranger you don't care about.

metamorpha
Sep 9th, 2012, 03:00 PM
It's not even funny that people can go as low as thinking they can measure and judge the weight of terror suffered by Monica with the weight of depression suffered by Steffi. Geez.

égalité
Sep 9th, 2012, 03:01 PM
I'm not in awe of Graf's slam at all. She won the vast majority of her slams before Seles turned professional and when Evert/Navratilova were over the hill and after Seles got stabbed. They are meaningless.

And yet Seles won 4 out of the last 7, despite being 4 and a half years younger.

Oh good. Thank you for your totally unbiased assessment of the situation. 4 out of 7 is not a stirring majority. It's as close as a series of 7 matches can possibly be.

Are Althea Gibson's slams meaningless because they happened quite soon after Maureen Connolly's career-ending accident?

Anabelcroft
Sep 9th, 2012, 05:46 PM
Oh good. Thank you for your totally unbiased assessment of the situation. 4 out of 7 is not a stirring majority. It's as close as a series of 7 matches can possibly be.

Are Althea Gibson's slams meaningless because they happened quite soon after Maureen Connolly's career-ending accident?

If you ask Sam L. she is still not forgiven for winning them...

therefore she is erased from the tennis history-"end of discussion" :lol:

Sam L
Sep 10th, 2012, 08:38 AM
My point is the same...being world number 1 and with 5 Slams behind her,did anyone guess that it would be her last GS victory?

Just no...

Regarding Hingis, as has been mentioned, she was already not as dominant in '98 after '97.

Hingis had a great 1997 but she never won 7 out of 9 slams like Seles did.

The only other women to have won 7 (or more) out of 9 slams in a two-year period were Connolly, Court, Navratilova and Graf.

Connolly's career was like Seles but look at the others and how their careers turned out.

Sam L
Sep 10th, 2012, 08:39 AM
therefore she is erased from the tennis history-"end of discussion" :lol:

She or her slams should not be erased but they should be viewed with the full history of everything that happened. She won a lot of her slams in the complete absence of her major rival. That should always be remembered.

Anabelcroft
Sep 10th, 2012, 11:11 AM
Regarding Hingis, as has been mentioned, she was already not as dominant in '98 after '97.

Hingis had a great 1997 but she never won 7 out of 9 slams like Seles did.



It's not a point how you see her dominance, but would anyone suspect, based on her career up to that point ( being world number 1 in 3 years time ('97,'98,'99) and 5 times GS winner at the age of 18 ), that she would never win another Grand Slam again?

Most of the people would think that her trend of winning GS would continue based on the fact that, at 18, she won almost all of them already ( except RG ) and being world number 1, but it just didn't...

The point is, if she got stabbed in February '99 a lot of people would say that she was robbed of her future GS account, but in reality, she hasn't won any more, so here is an example that in tennis, nothing is certain if it didn't happen...

capcl
Sep 10th, 2012, 12:26 PM
Who can say whether she'll equal or surpass Evert and Navratilova? Tennis such an unpredictable sport. After Kim won the 2011 AO, I thought that she'd go on and dominate the season and win morpmany more slams to come. now it turns out that was the last tournament she ever won.

Serena looked unstoppable after the 2010 Wimbledon win, then didn't win a slam for another 2 years. One thing is for certain, she won't get to Graf or Court's numbers, they're unattainable for her now.

Ackms421
Sep 10th, 2012, 12:41 PM
Who can say whether she'll equal or surpass Evert and Navratilova? Tennis such an unpredictable sport. After Kim won the 2011 AO, I thought that she'd go on and dominate the season and win morpmany more slams to come. now it turns out that was the last tournament she ever won.

Serena looked unstoppable after the 2010 Wimbledon win, then didn't win a slam for another 2 years. One thing is for certain, she won't get to Graf or Court's numbers, they're unattainable for her now.

You're right, tennis is unpredictable. But with Serena, the only question really is how healthy she remains. If she can remain healthy 3 more years she would have a shot at Graf's number. This is incredibly unlikely, but not impossible. Having 15 now I would be shocked if she didn't, at a minimum, equal Evert and Navratilova's 18. But you're right, at 30 she could sprain an ankle tomorrow and never be the same player again. We'll see, but 18 is more likely than unlikely now I think.

capcl
Sep 10th, 2012, 12:56 PM
You're right, tennis is unpredictable. But with Serena, the only question really is how healthy she remains. If she can remain healthy 3 more years she would have a shot at Graf's number. This is incredibly unlikely, but not impossible. Having 15 now I would be shocked if she didn't, at a minimum, equal Evert and Navratilova's 18. But you're right, at 30 she could sprain an ankle tomorrow and never be the same player again. We'll see, but 18 is more likely than unlikely now I think.

But that would mean she'd have to win half of what she already has now. It just won't happen.

I'm inclined to agree with you about the 18 thing, but I remember being absolutely certain that Hingis would win more slams after the 1999 AO, Davenport 2000 AOm Clijsters 2011 AO (funny how all these were at the same slam, lol, just noticed that), and Serena herself after 2010 Wimbledon. It's just too hard to say and she is 31. RG is out of the question, so she'd have to do well at the others and never get injured. 3 slams is actually a few to win, and by no means guaranteed.

FattyKid
Sep 10th, 2012, 01:10 PM
currently, the Williams have 22 slams = Steffi

Ackms421
Sep 10th, 2012, 01:13 PM
But that would mean she'd have to win half of what she already has now. It just won't happen.

I'm inclined to agree with you about the 18 thing, but I remember being absolutely certain that Hingis would win more slams after the 1999 AO, Davenport 2000 AOm Clijsters 2011 AO (funny how all these were at the same slam, lol, just noticed that), and Serena herself after 2010 Wimbledon. It's just too hard to say and she is 31. RG is out of the question, so she'd have to do well at the others and never get injured. 3 slams is actually a few to win, and by no means guaranteed.

Sure, 3 slams cannot be a foregone conclusion. But, the difference between Serena and the other players you've mentioned is that she has taken multiple hiatuses from the tour (and from winning slams) and been able to come back. Those other players never returned to the peak of their powers once their form dropped. That is the only reason Serena was able to get to 15 to begin with. She has resolve, and her game is still the best by a long way when she is on. For me it is only a question of health. Motivation is no longer a problem for her.

capcl
Sep 10th, 2012, 01:30 PM
Sure, 3 slams cannot be a foregone conclusion. But, the difference between Serena and the other players you've mentioned is that she has taken multiple hiatuses from the tour (and from winning slams) and been able to come back. Those other players never returned to the peak of their powers once their form dropped. That is the only reason Serena was able to get to 15 to begin with. She has resolve, and her game is still the best by a long way when she is on. For me it is only a question of health. Motivation is no longer a problem for her.

Hingis and Davenport yes, but not Clijsters. She won 3/4 of her slams 4 years after her first.

I think that we're pretty much in entire agreement (on the whole) though. It's just funny how tennis works. After RG, Sharapova was unstoppable, according to many, and would go on to dominate. Didn't happen. In contrast, Serena lost in Round 1 of a slam for the first time in her career. She was going down, down and was over the hill. Didn't happen. This is what I love about tennis - it's SO unpredictable. 2012 AO will be very interesting. You'd have to put Serena and Azarenka as favourites, with Li, Kvitova and Sharapova Tier 2 favourites. I wouldn't be at all surprised if none of them won it.

cehowardrx7
Sep 10th, 2012, 01:37 PM
Who can say whether she'll equal or surpass Evert and Navratilova? Tennis such an unpredictable sport. After Kim won the 2011 AO, I thought that she'd go on and dominate the season and win morpmany more slams to come. now it turns out that was the last tournament she ever won.

Serena looked unstoppable after the 2010 Wimbledon win, then didn't win a slam for another 2 years. One thing is for certain, she won't get to Graf or Court's numbers, they're unattainable for her now.

You are correct about Court, but Graf's numbers are STABBED ASSISTED, and don't count. Where you been on Mars???
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/288083/TENNIS-STAR-MONICA-SELES-STABBED-IN-BACK-DURING-MATCH-IN-GERMANY.html?pg=all

A police spokesman, Dankmar Lundt, told a German television station said the man is German and said "there were no political grounds" for the attack. Lundt said the man "appears confused" and might be mentally disturbed.

"He said he was a Steffi Graf fan," Lundt said, referring to the German player ranked No. 2 behind Seles. "He didn't want to kill Seles, only injure her to hinder her from playing."

cehowardrx7
Sep 10th, 2012, 01:42 PM
:confused: :confused:

Who had more focus and determination than Graf? :lol:



Monica Seles!!
http://tennisplanet.wordpress.com/2007/03/04/tennis-player-stabbed-on-the-court-monica-seles/

Quote from the link above!

Seles was the top women’s player heading into 1993. In January 1993, Seles defeated Graf in the final of the Australian Open, which was her third win in five Grand Slam matches with Graf.

capcl
Sep 10th, 2012, 02:12 PM
You are correct about Court, but Graf's numbers are STABBED ASSISTED, and don't count. Where you been on Mars???
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/288083/TENNIS-STAR-MONICA-SELES-STABBED-IN-BACK-DURING-MATCH-IN-GERMANY.html?pg=all

A police spokesman, Dankmar Lundt, told a German television station said the man is German and said "there were no political grounds" for the attack. Lundt said the man "appears confused" and might be mentally disturbed.

"He said he was a Steffi Graf fan," Lundt said, referring to the German player ranked No. 2 behind Seles. "He didn't want to kill Seles, only injure her to hinder her from playing."

I am no fan of Graf, believe you me, but facts are facts and she has 22.

1. Court - 24.
2. Graf - 22.
3. Wills Moody - 19.
4. Evert and Navratilova - 18.

No one has 16 or 17. Next is Serena at 15.

cehowardrx7
Sep 10th, 2012, 02:52 PM
I am no fan of Graf, believe you me, but facts are facts and she has 22.

1. Court - 24.
2. Graf - 22.
3. Wills Moody - 19.
4. Evert and Navratilova - 18.

No one has 16 or 17. Next is Serena at 15.

And Believe you me, she was assisted by her main rival being stabbed for the MAIN PURPOSE OF ADVANCING GRAF.

How come you can't see this, everybody else does.

Suppose Serena didn't exist, Sharapova would have about 10 slams.. Vika would have this slam. When your OPPONENT is eliminated for the "sole purpose" of advancing another, then their record is TAINTED.

And always will be..

Drake1980
Sep 10th, 2012, 03:34 PM
Who is evilrena? :confused:

lloyders76
Sep 10th, 2012, 05:23 PM
And Believe you me, she was assisted by her main rival being stabbed for the MAIN PURPOSE OF ADVANCING GRAF.

How come you can't see this, everybody else does.

Suppose Serena didn't exist, Sharapova would have about 10 slams.. Vika would have this slam. When your OPPONENT is eliminated for the "sole purpose" of advancing another, then their record is TAINTED.

And always will be..



but what you're saying is conjecture, you can't claim it to be fact

you're welcome to your opinion, i agree seles was more than likely to deny graf some of her success

but it doesn't change the fact graf has 22, that is a fact

Anabelcroft
Sep 10th, 2012, 05:25 PM
And Believe you me, she was assisted by her main rival being stabbed for the MAIN PURPOSE OF ADVANCING GRAF.

How come you can't see this, everybody else does.



Who is this "everybody"?

Maybe the ones who voted? :lol:

http://www.tennischannel.com/goat/gallery4.aspx

http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/news/articles/2012-01-24/201201241327373295547.html

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=452541&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=440490&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=440636&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=430800&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=422208&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=421749&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=361158&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=324285&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=310033&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=302400&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=112616&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=112615&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=139705&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://sports.yahoo.com/tennis/news?slug=ycn-8994351

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=153292

http://sports.yahoo.com/tennis/news?slug=ycn-9010645


So,please check these various polls and threads to see what "everybody" thinks...Steffi was voted best ever female tennis player at the Australian Open this year...so,before you talk bullshit as you mostly do,check reality :wavey:

P.S.If you check all those greatest all-round polls you will see that she won in every one of them...

RYNJ
Sep 10th, 2012, 05:35 PM
To me, Steffi would not have won 22 slams had Monica not been stabbed. Monica defended her US Open crown to win in '92, 'won '93 Australian Open (defeating Graf) for the 3rd straight year, and was the 3 time defending champion leading up to the '93 French Open and some people would like to think that Monica would not have won at least 4 more slams, during her period of absence, is kidding themselves.

Federer would have won the French Open at least 3 times already if Nadal was stabbed.

In the record books it 22, but really it should be 22* and I like Steffi Graf.

danieln1
Sep 10th, 2012, 07:29 PM
Why Evilrena? :facepalm:

cehowardrx7
Sep 10th, 2012, 08:17 PM
Why Evilrena? :facepalm:

Because they are a HATER...:lol:

That is why they come with these stupid threads when Serena shines. I tried to come with a comparison thread about Sharapova and Serena, but it was deleted.

NashaMasha
Sep 10th, 2012, 09:16 PM
Steffi Graf won each Slam at least 4 times (3 Career Slams + Grand Slam) that's why she is greater than anyone including even Federer

Regarding stabbering , it's irrelevant point, because let's imagine that Venus is absolutely healthy and Sharapova never was injured The tour would have been tougher for OldRena . Serena has won 7 Slams in the period of relatively weak WTA

missvarsha
Sep 10th, 2012, 09:24 PM
Well, winning 8 more GS is a tall order, even for Ragereta....

Anabelcroft
Sep 10th, 2012, 09:43 PM
Because they are a HATER...:lol:



Or maybe because they are old,fast and dirty:haha: :lol:

whatever it is supposed to mean ;)

Marc23
Sep 10th, 2012, 09:50 PM
Who is this "everybody"?

Maybe the ones who voted? :lol:

http://www.tennischannel.com/goat/gallery4.aspx

http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/news/articles/2012-01-24/201201241327373295547.html

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=452541&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=440490&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=440636&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=430800&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=422208&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=421749&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=361158&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=324285&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=310033&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=302400&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=112616&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=112615&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=139705&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://sports.yahoo.com/tennis/news?slug=ycn-8994351

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=153292

http://sports.yahoo.com/tennis/news?slug=ycn-9010645


So,please check these various polls and threads to see what "everybody" thinks...Steffi was voted best ever female tennis player at the Australian Open this year...so,before you talk bullshit as you mostly do,check reality :wavey:

P.S.If you check all those greatest all-round polls you will see that she won in every one of them...

Anabel,how much time does it take to find all these polls? lol

It's not that I don't give you credit :worship: but still,would be lazy to do it :unsure:

acetoace
Sep 10th, 2012, 09:52 PM
Steffi Graf won each Slam at least 4 times (3 Career Slams + Grand Slam) that's why she is greater than anyone including even Federer

Regarding stabbering , it's irrelevant point, because let's imagine that Venus is absolutely healthy and Sharapova never was injured The tour would have been tougher for OldRena . Serena has won 7 Slams in the period of relatively weak WTA


Hate it or take it, Sharapova is not relevant in any conversation regarding Serena. You cannot embellish the staggering record. Conversly, what do u think would have happened to the tour if Serena did not have knee surgery in 2003 necessitating an 11 month sabbatical? Do u really think pova would have won 2004 WB and YEC? But for the knee surgery, more than likely, pova would still be in obscurity at Bollittieri collecting welfare checks.

At some point, delusional fans like u coming up with downright garbage stuff as above need to just........:facepalm:

capcl
Sep 10th, 2012, 10:24 PM
Steffi Graf won each Slam at least 4 times (3 Career Slams + Grand Slam) that's why she is greater than anyone including even Federer

Regarding stabbering , it's irrelevant point, because let's imagine that Venus is absolutely healthy and Sharapova never was injured The tour would have been tougher for OldRena . Serena has won 7 Slams in the period of relatively weak WTA

Court won 24. Why is 24 with 3 of every slam less imoressive than 22 with 4? And don't be so stupid, Graf is not greater than Federer. Graf played in second division.

ziros
Sep 10th, 2012, 10:25 PM
But for the knee surgery, more than likely, pova would still be in obscurity at Bollittieri collecting welfare checks.

:facepalm: x 1000000000000000000000000

NashaMasha
Sep 10th, 2012, 10:58 PM
Hate it or take it, Sharapova is not relevant in any conversation regarding Serena. You cannot embellish the staggering record. Conversly, what do u think would have happened to the tour if Serena did not have knee surgery in 2003 necessitating an 11 month sabbatical? Do u really think pova would have won 2004 WB and YEC? But for the knee surgery, more than likely, pova would still be in obscurity at Bollittieri collecting welfare checks.

At some point, delusional fans like u coming up with downright garbage stuff as above need to just........:facepalm:

Serena is almost 31, except her serve she is not even a 40% of Serena 2004/2005 and not even a 20% of 2002 ,
no surgery Sharapova will be beating her with ease now... ShoulderPova is a no-serve Pova , of course it's hard for her to compete now beating records in DFs on all Slams
Many people on TF look like they have never seen AO 2008

Anabelcroft
Sep 11th, 2012, 12:38 AM
It's not that I don't give you credit :worship: but still,would be lazy to do it :unsure:

I wanted to be good and by doing this to make cehowardrx7's day ;)

ukneecorn
Sep 11th, 2012, 12:41 AM
She doesn't need to break her (or anyone else's) record for a lot of experts to agree that Serena is the GOAT ahead of Steffi, Martina and Chrissie.

misty1
Sep 11th, 2012, 12:48 AM
she'd have to win 8 more slams to beat steffi's record

i think eventually age is going to catch up with her . It doesnt matter how good you are it always does and the new generation will eventually start beating her more often

if she's going to do it she has to do it within the next ..id say 2 years, meaning she'd have to win every slam over the next 2 years

so no, she wont beat steffi's record but i do think she'll surpass martina

Nicolás89
Sep 11th, 2012, 01:24 AM
She's the best player of her generation and she did it without the help of a knife. That's all it matters.

True tea being spilled.

acetoace
Sep 11th, 2012, 01:25 AM
Serena is almost 31, except her serve she is not even a 40% of Serena 2004/2005 and not even a 20% of 2002 ,
no surgery Sharapova will be beating her with ease now... ShoulderPova is a no-serve Pova , of course it's hard for her to compete now beating records in DFs on all Slams
Many people on TF look like they have never seen AO 2008



:haha::haha::haha::haha::haha::haha::haha: Yeah, Serena is shaking in her boot:lol: If I was sick for a year and still return to woop ur ass in straights....... says alot about pova than it does Serena. Oh, I remember..... the shoulder excuse, right?:lol:

Serve pova who can't even touch Vika. I told ya'll that rain will not save pova against Vika, didn't I?

Admit it, pova luck ran out against a far better player. Even heaven knows the difference and thus rightfully refused to support the fraud in pova by ensuring a rain free match:lol:.

Thank u Vika for showing how mediocre pova is.:bounce:

Geisha
Sep 11th, 2012, 12:42 PM
Serena is almost 31, except her serve she is not even a 40% of Serena 2004/2005 and not even a 20% of 2002 ,
no surgery Sharapova will be beating her with ease now... ShoulderPova is a no-serve Pova , of course it's hard for her to compete now beating records in DFs on all Slams
Many people on TF look like they have never seen AO 2008

You have to go back to 2008 to prove Maria's greatness? She had a great two weeks. Before shoulder and after shoulder, she's been getting demolished regularly by many...

Talula
Sep 11th, 2012, 01:03 PM
with or without a knife, Steffi still got more slams than Serena, so i really can't see your point.
that's a different story if Seles got more slams than Serena.

No other player, Evert, Navratilova, King, Court, the Williams, had their main rival stabbed and out of the game for over 2 years. Of course it matters.

Setting up any player to equal Steffi's tally is unfair. And any mention of Steffi's tally should have an * against it.

Talula
Sep 11th, 2012, 01:06 PM
Steffi Graf won each Slam at least 4 times (3 Career Slams + Grand Slam) that's why she is greater than anyone including even Federer

Regarding stabbering , it's irrelevant point, because let's imagine that Venus is absolutely healthy and Sharapova never was injured The tour would have been tougher for OldRena . Serena has won 7 Slams in the period of relatively weak WTA

There's a difference between players being injured or in the usual slumps, and the No 1 player who had won 8 slams beating her rival for several of them suddenly not playing for over 2 years!

NashaMasha
Sep 11th, 2012, 01:31 PM
There's a difference between players being injured or in the usual slumps, and the No 1 player who had won 8 slams beating her rival for several of them suddenly not playing for over 2 years!

Monica would have been a threat for Serena's 6 titles (1999-2003) either . Why are forgetting it?

Olórin
Sep 11th, 2012, 02:22 PM
Monica would have been a threat for Serena's 6 titles (1999-2003) either . Why are forgetting it?

This shows how limited your analytical ability is. It is impossible to extrapolate what would have happened in 10 years+ had Monica not been stabbed. That's just meaningless. However, people are talking about what can be reasonably conjectured, i.e. the immediate and direct aftermath in the succeeding 12 months: Steffi winning each of the three slams Seles held and was unable to defend due to physical criminal assault upon her person by a fan of the player who achieved the most after Seles' stabbing.

FattyKid
Sep 11th, 2012, 04:41 PM
Whatever happened happened. Fact is Steffi has 22 slams, Serena has 15. So unless Serena gets to 22, Steffi is the GOAT.

metamorpha
Sep 11th, 2012, 05:07 PM
Serena had slumped too long from 2004 to 2007 before she finally came back firing at the end of 2008 when the field began to open itself with Justine and Maria out of the tour.

If she were healthy and motivated to win five titles during 2004 (a joke year) to 2007, she would stand at 20 and it's possible that she could break the all time GS record owned by Court (not Steffi).

But now it's a long winding road.

Stonerpova
Sep 11th, 2012, 06:44 PM
I don't think it's realistic. Wimbledon is hers until she stops caring, but the other three will be a struggle, especially the French.

jj74
Sep 11th, 2012, 08:09 PM
I don't think she will Roland Garros again, slow red clay is her kryptonite, she is able to play really well on there, but seven matches at RG is a little bit too much. She won the only final she played.
but given the fact that some of the RG winners and runner ups are not exactly what one expect, everything is possible.

She is 30, she is not going to get better, but her rivals will improve. I think she will win some more (if she keeps healthy and motivated) but 7 more is a bit too much

bandabou
Sep 11th, 2012, 09:03 PM
Nah...the '04-'06 years are hunting her now. She should/could've been at 18 already by now, then it's easier. 7 more majors at age 30/31 is almost impossible.

cehowardrx7
Sep 11th, 2012, 09:16 PM
Whatever happened happened. Fact is Steffi has 22 slams, Serena has 15. So unless Serena gets to 22, Steffi is the GOAT.

Wrong, whatever happens, Steffi has 4 or 5 STABBED ASSISTED SLAMS, and that will always be there. No way can the stabbing of Monica Seles by a Steffi fan for the purpose of advancing Steffi, can NEVER be ignore and never will.

cehowardrx7
Sep 11th, 2012, 09:21 PM
To tell the truth, all this stuff about Steffi slams brought up by Steffi fans and Serena haters is only making it known to all, and a stark fact, the slams AFTER Monica Seles was stabbed are not only quesitonalbe, they are TAINTED to the 10th degree. Steffi will be known as the Stab-Assisted Tennis Great. Years from now, it will be common knowledge..

So, Graf fans, go back to your hole. Can't mention Graf on the same sentence with greats that earned their slams on their own!!

cehowardrx7
Sep 11th, 2012, 09:28 PM
Steffi Graf won each Slam at least 4 times (3 Career Slams + Grand Slam) that's why she is greater than anyone including even Federer


You wish..:lol:

The German Court felt the same way, that is why the stabber go no time in a German Court! Why? Because he was German, he stabbed a women to advance a German!! That is why Graf reoord will can never be compared to REAL GREATS, unless you talk of the slams BEFORE the stabbing. How many was before the stabbing.. That is her Slam count!!

NashaMasha
Sep 11th, 2012, 09:35 PM
This shows how limited your analytical ability is. It is impossible to extrapolate what would have happened in 10 years+ had Monica not been stabbed. That's just meaningless. However, people are talking about what can be reasonably conjectured, i.e. the immediate and direct aftermath in the succeeding 12 months: Steffi winning each of the three slams Seles held and was unable to defend due to physical criminal assault upon her person by a fan of the player who achieved the most after Seles' stabbing.

it's delusional , because Serena had to fight 3 sets to beat stabbed Seles (not once).... And we know that after stabbing Seles was never as good she used to be.

You should watch again Butterfly Effect to understand that if we are changing something in history it may affect much more people , developments etc than we may suppose

cehowardrx7
Sep 11th, 2012, 09:38 PM
Quotes from news clippings. Don't even need a link, because there are zillions of them out there, just do a search.

Here is one of them:

Monica Seles - On Top of Her Game at Time of her Stabbing

In 1992 Graf acknowledged the strengths of the younger player Seles predicting that with time it will be tough for her to beat her. The following year Seles beat her and was listed the Number 1 female player at the AFT Ranking. Then Seles was stabbed by a German Fan in Hamburg forcing her to withdraw from the tournament and other Grand Slam Tournament for 27 months. Ironically it was during that time that Steffi Graf took the Number 1 spot again.

Anabelcroft
Sep 11th, 2012, 10:23 PM
You wish..:lol:

The German Court felt the same way, that is why the stabber go no time in a German Court! Why? Because he was German, he stabbed a women to advance a German!! That is why Graf reoord will can never be compared to REAL GREATS, unless you talk of the slams BEFORE the stabbing. How many was before the stabbing.. That is her Slam count!!

So,all people who voted here:

http://www.tennischannel.com/goat/gallery4.aspx

http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/news/articles/2012-01-24/201201241327373295547.html

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=452541&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=440490&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=440636&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=430800&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=422208&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=421749&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=361158&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=324285&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=310033&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=302400&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=112616&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=112615&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=139705&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://sports.yahoo.com/tennis/news?slug=ycn-8994351

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=153292

http://sports.yahoo.com/tennis/news?slug=ycn-9010645

are all in fact German??? :lol:

You are being funny!Accept the reality and stop "shouting" at people ;)

TNT96
Sep 12th, 2012, 12:12 AM
Margaret Court has the record number of Singles Grand Slams with 24. She also has the record for the most Grand Slam titles (singles, doubles and mixed) with 62. I think.

It doesn't matter whether Serena will break that record or not. She's the best player of her generation and she did it without the help of a knife. That's all it matters.

She's also a part of the best doubles team of her generation. You can't ask for more than that.


Class act to bring up the stabbing in 1993. Real class on your end

Johnbert
Sep 12th, 2012, 06:49 AM
ridiculous hate against steffi in this forum :help:

as if it was steffi herself who has stabbed monica. also some people here acting like steffi only won one slam each year 1991 and 1992 because of seles. but they've only played 2 times at slams in those years and the result was tied (monica won fo 1992, steffi wimbledon). steffi lost many matches against other players cause she was in a slump.

and to say steffis "real slam count" are only the slams before the stabbing... please... :facepalm: sure she wouldn't have won 22 without that, but acting like she would've never won a single slam again is just ridiculous. :rolleyes:

Anabelcroft
Sep 12th, 2012, 01:58 PM
and to say steffis "real slam count" are only the slams before the stabbing... please... :facepalm: sure she wouldn't have won 22 without that, but acting like she would've never won a single slam again is just ridiculous. :rolleyes:

Don't worry, they just say that because they can't cope with the fact that she has been pronounced the greatest ever, so that's the only way to show their anger because of that and to somehow relief themselves ;)

Excelscior
Sep 12th, 2012, 02:35 PM
Don't worry, they just say that because they can't cope with the fact that she has been pronounced the greatest ever, so that's the only way to show their anger because of that and to somehow relief themselves ;)

And @ Johnbert

Here's what I find amusing about the Seles crazies:

1) Even they admit that Steffi's Golden Slam alone would qualify her as ONE OF, if not THE greatest of all time.

2) That Seles was a great player, but she wasn't good enough at Wimbledon and faster surfaces, to be considered an all around great or to acquire near 20 slams.

Now if they know these things, why do they continually pick on Graf? Forget the fact, that it's no guarantee that Seles would of won another slam whether she was stabbed or not. Forget the fact that her wounds were superficial and healed in a week (minus her mental healing). Forget the fact that Steffi was in a slump and losing to everybody that year. Forget their career H2H, etc.

Again, I ask the question. Why do they keep picking on Graf, if many feel that she is one the greatest of all time, and possibly THE GOAT, anyway? Damn, the slam total!

Shouldn't they be mad at Gunther Parche, or Seles, for not rededicating herself back to tennis? Obviously all the media that call Graf the GOAT don't seem to mind or care.

It seems like misdirected anger/frustration to me.

metamorpha
Sep 12th, 2012, 03:12 PM
Yeah, jealousy can be irrational. But the reaction from some of the most crazed and delusional Graf fans are beyond appalling and totally unnecessary also. They are the main culprits of these stupid war of words.

I can imagine they secretly jumped up and down, eyes filled with tears when Seles was no longer a threat post-stabbing while Steffi was busy collecting slams with the same opponents that Hingis would conquer in 1997. :lol:

Excelscior
Sep 12th, 2012, 03:17 PM
Yeah, jealousy can be irrational. But the reaction from some of the most crazed and delusional Graf fans are beyond appalling and totally unnecessary also. They are the main culprits of these stupid war of words.

I can imagine they secretly jumped up and down, eyes filled with tears when Seles was no longer a threat post-stabbing while Steffi was busy collecting slams with the same opponents that Hingis would conquer in 1997. :lol:

Fair enough.

But considering her wounds were totally superficial and there's no better tactful way to say this, "why didn't Seles dedicate herself to being the BEST" and not letting this Gunther Parche fool (or Graf) get the better of her?

Are Seles fans really mad at Graf (or their really mad that it happened and Seles didn't rebound well, so they have to blame Graf, cause they like Seles too much, and Graf won too much in the process)? :shrug:

hingisGOAT
Sep 12th, 2012, 03:22 PM
It would have been interesting if Graf had kept playing. She was making a good recovery from her surgery, beating literally EVERYBODY in a very competitive field. She had just won a Slam and made the Wimbledon final, barely losing that match btw. She was only 29 (?) and was still the best player in the world AND improving her form. Rivals Hingis and Davenport would start their decline, the Belgians were still years and years away from relevance, and Serena was only really a threat on hard-courts. Literally her only competition would have been Venus, who I think Graf would have handled more often than not.

hingisGOAT
Sep 12th, 2012, 03:27 PM
Also this Seles/Graf debate just never ends, does it? I'll ignore Graf's superior records and near-dominant h2h for a moment. I'll also put aside the fact that Graf only lost to Seles in her career-worst form up to that point, when she was also losing to a bunch of players she never used to lose to. Forget that Seles barely beat slumping Graf in very tight matches, and was blown away by slumping Graf in other matches.

Let's just look at their GAMES.

Seles had a very limited game. No way she would have dominated Graf or the new generation of Hingis/Lindsay/WS.

Her movement was suspect even at her fittest. She was one-dimensional, rarely coming to net. And although powerful, others were soon to be just as powerful, with better serves.

Graf, on the other hand, was the finest athlete to ever play the game. The quickest, best endurance, best footwork. Her forehand was as powerful as anything Seles had, and her serve was better too. Graf's variety of shot was endless, and that slice backhand a real killer.

Graf had the tools, fitness, athleticism, and dedication to overcome ANY player. Her GAME was simply the best ever, for both old-school style tennis and the modern power game.

metamorpha
Sep 12th, 2012, 03:28 PM
Again, I ask the question. Why do they keep picking on Graf, if many feel that she is one the greatest of all time, and possibly THE GOAT, anyway? Damn, the slam total!


It's simple that I'm surprised you didn't know. It's never about the slam total, since it's already irrelevant for them after the stabbing. One would never know how great Monica could have been without the stabbing and how Steffi's own greatness would have been affected when they retired.

Of course they will never completely accept the decision in peace that Steffi is widely recognized as the GOAT, while those people seem to ignore the stabbing incident and forget to bring Monica into the equation. I think the problem here is that Monica was not respected enough.

Excelscior
Sep 12th, 2012, 03:37 PM
It's simple that I'm surprised you didn't know. It's never about the slam total, since it's already irrelevant for them after the stabbing. One would never know how great Monica could have been without the stabbing and how Steffi's own greatness would have been affected when they retired.

Of course they will never completely accept the decision in peace that Steffi is widely recognized as the GOAT, while those people seem to ignore the stabbing incident and forget to bring Monica into the equation. I think the problem here is that Monica was not respected enough.

See HingisGoat's above comments.

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm glad we can have a open discussion about this with out the mudslinging.

In regards to Monica's respect, like I said, see HingisGoats above comments. But on top of that, Monica wasn't seriously hurt from the stabbing. Sure it was traumatic. Absolutely I know. But look at all the security precautions they assured her (and the WTA incorporated) to put her at ease.

I know it's a very delicate subject. But unfortunately Tennis and the tennis writers, historians moved on, once they knew she was fully healed and can play again (even if they personally felt that may of hindered her mentally). Unfortunately the sport waits for no one.

If Seles wanted to be in the mix, she would of have to come back and been bonkers again. Cause when you look at their two games and careers, Steffi appeared to have the better all around game, demeanor and longevity (with or with out "Da Stabbing").

HingisGoat said it all above.

metamorpha
Sep 12th, 2012, 03:41 PM
Are Seles fans really mad at Graf (or their really mad that it happened and Seles didn't rebound well, so they have to blame Graf, cause they like Seles too much, and Graf won too much in the process)? :shrug:



Good question.

It's similar to Fed vs Rafa in so many ways. It's not Federer's fault that Rafa constantly injured himself, yet why the hatred is getting stronger when they see Federer is still playing as fresh as a daisy, busy collecting more titles and records as 31 y.o. while Rafa could only sit on a wheelchair, unsure about his future?

The answer is, those lunatics think that Federer shamelessly took advantage of the situation to remind everyone that he is the GOAT. From their reaction, looks like they consider it as bad as vulturing.

hingisGOAT
Sep 12th, 2012, 03:41 PM
No doubt Monica was a great player too. But if Henin had been stabbed in late 2007 or early 2008, some might say all of Serena's Slams since then aren't deserved (remember Justine was dominating her at the time). But Henin would never be a factor again anyway. You can't predict the future, you can only go by what you KNOW. And as great as Monica was, and as much as she EARNED those couple of hard-fought, three-set wins against slumping Graf, her actual tennis GAME and athleticism was never going to measure up to Steffi in the long run, no matter what.

Anabelcroft
Sep 12th, 2012, 03:43 PM
2) That Seles was a great player, but she wasn't good enough at Wimbledon and faster surfaces, to be considered an all around great or to acquire near 20 slams.



True...Seles never menaged to beat Graf on grass,hard courts or indoors,just on slower surfaces like clay and rebound ace...

That doesn't say that she wasn't a champion, but just that she wasn't good enough to be fully considered as the GOAT...THE GOAT, if one wants to be,must win on every surface...like Steffi did win minimum 4 majors on all surfaces!

Monica managed in '89 to take a set of Graf in RG on clay, but won just 1 game on grass a month later...

Also,in '92 she narrowly beat Graf in the RG final on clay,but again, a month later won just 3 games on grass...

If you want to be THE GOAT, you must show you have the skills for every surface!

Her game and fitness allowed her to be more efficient on slower surfaces, because on faster ones, her lack of fitness could be much more exploited...

Excelscior
Sep 12th, 2012, 03:50 PM
Good question.

It's similar to Fed vs Rafa in so many ways. It's not Federer's fault that Rafa constantly injured himself, yet why the hatred is getting stronger when they see Federer is still playing as fresh as a daisy, busy collecting more titles and records as 31 y.o. while Rafa could only sit on a wheelchair, unsure about his future?

The answer is, those lunatics think that Federer shamelessly took advantage of the situation to remind everyone that he is the GOAT. From their reaction, looks like they consider it as bad as vulturing.

Funny, I always thought Fed fans were mad that Rafa kept denying Roger his 17th major, until he won Wimby this year. :lol:

I don't know why they would be mad. Rafa got creamed by Rosol at Wimby where Roger won. And Roger didn't win the US Open in 2012. As far as Rafa missing (I think) the 2009 Wimby defense, oh well. Look at how many titles Rafa denied Roger. Why should they care?

And Rafa's still young enough to win more Majors, if he can make a successful recovery.

I guess we got to wait and see?

Matt01
Sep 12th, 2012, 03:53 PM
Let's just look at their GAMES.

Seles had a very limited game. No way she would have dominated Graf or the new generation of Hingis/Lindsay/WS.

Her movement was suspect even at her fittest. She was one-dimensional, rarely coming to net. And although powerful, others were soon to be just as powerful, with better serves.

Graf, on the other hand, was the finest athlete to ever play the game. The quickest, best endurance, best footwork. Her forehand was as powerful as anything Seles had, and her serve was better too. Graf's variety of shot was endless, and that slice backhand a real killer.

Graf had the tools, fitness, athleticism, and dedication to overcome ANY player. Her GAME was simply the best ever, for both old-school style tennis and the modern power game.

And as great as Monica was, and as much as she EARNED those couple of hard-fought, three-set wins against slumping Graf, her actual tennis GAME and athleticism was never going to measure up to Steffi in the long run, no matter what.


Oh my :facepalm:

Excelscior
Sep 12th, 2012, 03:56 PM
True...Seles never menaged to beat Graf on grass,hard courts or indoors,just on slower surfaces like clay and rebound ace...

That doesn't say that she wasn't a champion, but just that she wasn't good enough to be fully considered as the GOAT...THE GOAT, if one wants to be,must win on every surface...like Steffi did win minimum 4 majors on all surfaces!

Monica managed in '89 to take a set of Graf in RG on clay, but won just 1 game on grass a month later...

Also,in '92 she narrowly beat Graf in the RG final on clay,but again, a month later won just 3 games on grass...

If you want to be THE GOAT, you must show you have the skills for every surface!

Her game and fitness allowed her to be more efficient on slower surfaces, because on faster ones, her lack of fitness could be much more exploited...

This is what I'm saying. I think they know she wasn't the greatest. But they begrudge Graf cause Seles beat Graf a few times and was number one when Graf was slumping. But that doesn't change the fact, that Graf was a superior tennis player to Seles-if you look at both their games, demeanor and overall diversity of their results.

Seles was a great player. And she was one of the all time greats. Absolutely. Fantastic player. She's just not in the GOAT discussion and Steffi is (even with the stabbing), and that's what pisses so many of them off and drives them nuts.

metamorpha
Sep 12th, 2012, 03:56 PM
I know it's a very delicate subject. But unfortunately Tennis and the tennis writers, historians moved on, once they knew she was fully healed and can play again (even if they personally felt that may of hindered her mentally). Unfortunately the sport waits for no one.

If Seles wanted to be in the mix, she would of have to come back and been bonkers again. Cause when you look at their two games and careers, Steffi appeared to have the better all around game, demeanor and longevity (with or with out "Da Stabbing").

HingisGoat said it all above.

The problem is, no one is clearly better than Graf to replace her as the GOAT, even if you put Monica's 1990-1993 into equation. Too bad Monica was stabbed way too early in her career when she's 19. She had achieved a lot by then and still far from proving herself while blemishing Graf's career in the process.

Anabelcroft
Sep 12th, 2012, 03:58 PM
Good question.

It's similar to Fed vs Rafa in so many ways.

In some ways yes, but in other ways no...

Remember that Nadal leads Federer in H2H 18-10, while Steffi never had losing H2H with Monica,even while she was number 1 in the world...

Again,Federer's H2H against some other main GS contenders is not that good,as he has losing H2H against Murray also, while Steffi never had losing H2H against any other GS winner or former world number 1...that's where her strength is...

Matt01
Sep 12th, 2012, 04:02 PM
Steffi had a losing H2H with Seles when she started her domination so let's put this myth to rest finally :lol:

Anabelcroft
Sep 12th, 2012, 04:02 PM
Seles was a great player. And she was one of the all time greats. Absolutely. Fantastic player. She's just not in the GOAT discussion and Steffi is (even with the stabbing), and that's what pisses so many of them off and drives them nuts.

Spot on!!!

So,they come here to relief themselves by posting bullshit and when you present them the links in which Graf won every greatest poll they just don't know what to answer and skip that like crazy and start posting again and again the same,even if you prove them wrong!

When you present them something which proves them wrong they get more and more angry because they are powerless to change something that is globally accepted!

Anabelcroft
Sep 12th, 2012, 04:05 PM
Steffi had a losing H2H with Seles when she started her domination so let's put this myth to rest finally :lol:

It's not a myth,losing H2H while Monica was number 1 is what WTA says :wavey:

metamorpha
Sep 12th, 2012, 04:08 PM
In some ways yes, but in other ways no...

Remember that Nadal leads Federer in H2H 18-10, while Steffi never had losing H2H with Monica,even while she was number 1 in the world...

Again,Federer's H2H against some other main GS contenders is not that good,as he has losing H2H against Murray also, while Steffi never had losing H2H against any other GS winner or former world number 1...that's where her strength is...

Yes, in some ways.

But as I said it just now, Monica was stabbed too early to prove that the incident was very significant to her rivalry with Graf. Remember that prior to the stabbing, she's still No. 1 at that time and the slam leader since 1991. H2H was also 6-4 CMIIW. It's quite even.

Olórin
Sep 12th, 2012, 04:13 PM
But considering her wounds were totally superficial and there's no better tactful way to say this, "why didn't Seles dedicate herself to being the BEST" and not letting this Gunther Parche fool (or Graf) get the better of her?

This is where I always have to get involved in the discussion. When non-arguments about Seles' "poor" recovery are thrown in some indirect way to validate the dismemberment of women's tennis that took place that day.

Seles already had dedicated herself to being the best. That is the very thing that got her stabbed, physically violated in front of thousands of people and on international TV. Yes using the word "fool" doesn't seem quite to cover it. That trivialisation of the crime itself (in regards to the bigger picture of taking Seles out of the game) is probably what was going through the maniac's mind before he committed the act.

Bearing that in mind, any person with an ounce of compassion would surely understand that Seles wouldn't be too keen to return to the game which she had already conquered and which had gotten her attacked and violated as a result. It's difficult to be tactful when you're making statements devoid of understanding a woman's life.

Anyway, the point you're making is that Steffi's slam count, records such as 4+ slams at 4 majors+, aren't what define her greatness but more the way her game adapted to all surfaces, the way she played and dominated, how she went toe to toe with Navratilova and Serena Williams and won - adapting her game as the years went on to remain THE best. As a fan of Steffi's game I myself would agree with all of this. But the problem is in these threads people will always bring up Steffi's slam count as if it's some sort of "slam dunk" - they are too lazy or ignorant to talk about anything else. And the fact of the matter is that Steffi's overall slam tally is directly linked to Monica Seles' stabbing.

Anabelcroft
Sep 12th, 2012, 04:14 PM
Yes, in some ways.

But as I said it just now, Monica was stabbed too early to prove that the incident was very significant to her rivalry with Graf. Remember that prior to the stabbing, she's still No. 1

I agree to that...at the time of stabbing she had only 20 points more than Graf,but what I said in earlier post is that she was good enough to challenge Graf on clay and slow surfaces, but never good enough to beat her outside of that, prior and after stabbing, while her tally on grass against Graf was really a disaster for someone who had been world number 1...

My point was that undoubtedly,she was a champion,but not the one to be considered THE GOAT!

metamorpha
Sep 12th, 2012, 04:20 PM
And just right after she had been stabbed, the floodgate was once again released. Four slams in a row.

You can imagine how Rafatards must have felt when Rogi did that in 2009. Almost pulling a Graf and another difference with Graf vs Seles is, once his master back in charge, he couldn't win again. So those Rafatards could jump and down in orgasm again while Selesians weren't that fortunate.

Anabelcroft
Sep 12th, 2012, 04:21 PM
Anyway, the point you're making is that Steffi's slam count, records such as 4+ slams at 4 majors+, aren't what define her greatness but more the way her game adapted to all surfaces, the way she played and dominated, how she went toe to toe with Navratilova and Serena Williams and won - adapting her game as the years went on to remain THE best. As a fan of Steffi's game I myself would agree with all of this. But the problem is in these threads people will always bring up Steffi's slam count as if it's some sort of "slam dunk" - they are too lazy or ignorant to talk about anything else.

Those records just show that her game adapted to all surfaces...the other fact that shows that is that Steffi is the only number 1 player that doesn't have losing H2H against any other GS winner or player that has been also world number 1...

She had the game for every generation of top players,either previous,her generation or the so called newer generation of top players...

Just look at Federers H2H with Nadal and Murray and you will realize just how tough it is to achieve!

Matt01
Sep 12th, 2012, 04:26 PM
Losing H2H while Monica was number 1 is what is written in WTA :wavey:


Why are you always repeating the same irrelevant crap over and over again? :confused:

Anabelcroft
Sep 12th, 2012, 04:29 PM
Why are you always repeating the same irrelevant crap over and over again? :confused:

It's maybe irrelevant to you because you want it to be...but in reality,it isn't and you know it :wavey:

Excelscior
Sep 12th, 2012, 04:33 PM
This is where I always have to get involved in the discussion. When non-arguments about Seles' "poor" recovery are thrown in some indirect way to validate the dismemberment of women's tennis that took place that day.

Seles already had dedicated herself to being the best. That is the very thing that got her stabbed, physically violated in front of thousands of people and on international TV. Yes using the word "fool" doesn't seem quite to cover it. That trivialisation of the crime itself (in regards to the bigger picture of taking Seles out of the game) is probably what was going through the maniac's mind before he committed the act.

Bearing that in mind, any person with an ounce of compassion would surely understand that Seles wouldn't be too keen to return to the game which she had already conquered and which had gotten her attacked and violated as a result. It's difficult to be tactful when you're making statements devoid of understanding a woman's life.

Anyway, the point you're making is that Steffi's slam count, records such as 4+ slams at 4 majors+, aren't what define her greatness but more the way her game adapted to all surfaces, the way she played and dominated, how she went toe to toe with Navratilova and Serena Williams and won - adapting her game as the years went on to remain THE best. As a fan of Steffi's game I myself would agree with all of this. But the problem is in these threads people will always bring up Steffi's slam count as if it's some sort of "slam dunk" - they are too lazy or ignorant to talk about anything else. And the fact of the matter is that Steffi's overall slam tally is directly linked to Monica Seles' stabbing.

It's a very delicate topic. And that was a reluctant question/retort to the "Why Blame Graf" question.

No one is defaming Seles's heart, determination or will. But then why pick on Graf? What did she do. Therefore, it is a reluctantly valid question/retort in some arenas. But I totally understand where you're coming from.

Though some will scream at the comparison, cause Monica's happened on a tennis court. But come to think about, what's the difference with the Paul Pierce example? Why is it so bad?

He got stabbed 11 times, got a bottle broken over his head in a hometown Boston Night Club. As a result, Pierce had a collapsed lung, stitches, surgery and Rehab. And guess what, Pierce still didn't miss any of the upcoming NBA season, and played great.

You think Pierce's trauma was any less than Seles-cause it happened in a night club, a place where he's supposed to be having a good time? Many would think not. At least your competitive spirits are on a tennis and basketball court. Are you in any aggressive disposition at a night club?

I'm not saying Monica had to live up to that expectation. But his example is also something/a reaction to aspire to as well.

Some people are different. Not everyone is the same. :shrug:

Anabelcroft
Sep 12th, 2012, 04:40 PM
But then why pick on Graf? What did she do.

Well, for a start, she did play tennis better than the others ;)

Excelscior
Sep 12th, 2012, 04:47 PM
And just right after she had been stabbed, the floodgate was once again released. Four slams in a row.

You can imagine how Rafatards must have felt when Rogi did that in 2009. Almost pulling a Graf and another difference with Graf vs Seles is, once his master back in charge, he couldn't win again. So those Rafatards could jump and down in orgasm again while Selesians weren't that fortunate.

Ask your self this:

Do you really think Roger would have had the type of superficial injuries (sorry guys have to say it, since he brought up the example) that Seles did, and would of allowed Rafa to "win up" all the available Slams (or vice versa)? No!

As far as 2009, I don't think Rafatards cared. Rafa was hurt. What could you say or do? :shrug:

I don't think most exclusive Rafa fans begrudge Roger, as so many exclusive Roger fans seem to begrudge Rafa for kicking ass so often (compared to people who like both).

I don't think they (Rafatards) have that complex, cause he's younger, getting better on more surfaces, and has that head to head over Roger. And it's not just on clay.

Plus, Roger is the GOAT in so many peoples eyes (and a likable guy), why would they begrudge him? :shrug:

Anabelcroft
Sep 12th, 2012, 05:03 PM
Ask your self this:

Do you really think Roger would have had the type of superficial injuries (sorry guys have to say it, since he brought up the example) that Seles did, and would of allowed Rafa to "win up" all the available Slams (or vice versa)? No!



I don't think there is no point of comparing Roger and Rafa's case to Steffi and Monica's because Monica never dominated Steffi in their H2H matches, unlike in Rafa and Roger's case where Federer is officially proclaimed the best ever and yet trails his rival in their meetings on the tennis court...

cehowardrx7
Sep 12th, 2012, 05:03 PM
This is what I'm saying. I think they know she wasn't the greatest. But they begrudge Graf cause Seles beat Graf a few times and was number one when Graf was slumping. But that doesn't change the fact, that Graf was a superior tennis player to Seles-if you look at both their games, demeanor and overall diversity of their results.

Seles was a great player. And she was one of the all time greats. Absolutely. Fantastic player. She's just not in the GOAT discussion and Steffi is (even with the stabbing), and that's what pisses so many of them off and drives them nuts.

You and anablecroft can set up and tell each other those stories until the cows come home. The point is Graf's record is tainted, now and always will be. In every discussion of Graf, I bet you a 1000 to 1, the stabbing will come ..

You can play "yes-man" to anabelcrott, and she can play "yes-lady" to you..ha..:lol:

Excelscior
Sep 12th, 2012, 05:06 PM
I don't think there is no point of comparing Roger and Rafa's case to Steffi and Monica's because Monica never dominated Steffi in their H2H matches, unlike in Rafa and Roger's case where Federer is officially proclaimed the best ever and yet trails his rival in their meetings on tennis court...

I understand what you're saying. But the example/question is, "would either one 'WIN UP the upcoming slams under similar circumstance, regardless of the actual H2H.

Anabelcroft
Sep 12th, 2012, 05:12 PM
In every discussion of Graf, I bet you a 1000 to 1, the stabbing will come ..



cehowardrx7, enjoy these links before losing your 1000 to 1 bet ;)

Because,in every discussion where Graf's name is mentioned in connection to the word greatest,she is on top,no matter what the minority says...if otherwise,she wouldn't be on top of every poll...

We can't all agree on everything, but trying say something without any proof(such as reasons for losing my bet) or trying to to minimize what the majority has confirmed is just silly...

If you don't believe, just check...

http://www.tennischannel.com/goat/gallery4.aspx

http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/news/articles/2012-01-24/201201241327373295547.html

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=452541&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=440490&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=440636&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=430800&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=422208&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=421749&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=361158&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=324285&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=310033&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=302400&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=112616&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=112615&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=139705&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://sports.yahoo.com/tennis/news?slug=ycn-8994351

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=153292

http://sports.yahoo.com/tennis/news?slug=ycn-9010645

Those links are not something I wish to be, but something people generally wished and expressed that by choosing an option which was Graf...

Otherwise,all those polls would look different!

bandabou
Sep 12th, 2012, 05:25 PM
:lol: Anabelcroft and excelsior...ain't it something..talking to yourself. :lol:

Anabelcroft
Sep 12th, 2012, 05:32 PM
:lol: Anabelcroft and excelsior...ain't it something..talking to yourself. :lol:

Obviously,we are not alone since you are also here and reply :lol:

jj74
Sep 12th, 2012, 05:39 PM
well, some people prefer to ignore why Graf was not the dominant force when Seles was stabbed. Graf had tons of problems during the rising of Seles, what made her to low her level.
And yes, Seles not only had the game to cause Graf trouble, she had the mentality too. Seles had a total killer instinct, the same Graf had, but at the time Graf not being at her best, Seles had the edge on their matches (well, on the last GS matches, because like everybody knows, Graf always dominated h2h).

What happened to Seles was terrible, and it was terrible for fans too, because Graf was rising again, and the bettle for number one could be epic.
The truth is, the injuries were cured in a couple of weeks, and it was the psychological factor what keep Seles out of courts. But not only that, Seles discovered that there was a life apart of tennis, and she enjoyed it, and only after a good while, she decided to come back.
Everybody who watch women's tennis in the nineties remember that Seles was quite rebelious, i remember her not playing Wimbledon one year, and there was wild expeculation about her being pregnant.

Other thing to remember is that Graf was a legend before Seles even come to the circuit. When Seles won her first GS, Graf had 9.
How many GS would win Graf without Seles being stabbed? nobody knows, how many if she wasn't injuried on 1997, nobody knows. The fact is that she has 22, and she is the best player on the open era, maybe not for everybody, but for a majority of people like every poll shows

DOUBLEFIST
Sep 12th, 2012, 05:45 PM
Who's "Evilrena" :scratch:

...anyway, Serena J Williams will likely end up with 19 MAYBE 20 slams. Two of these additional 4 to 5 slams she'll win will be the French! Yep, that's right. You heard it hear first. Serena WILL win the French TWO MORE times. The first one will be next year.

In so doing, this will give her the "career slam" three times over, rivaling Steffi. She will certainly surpass Nav' and Chrissy in the conversation of GOAT, challenged only by Graf.

hingis-seles
Sep 12th, 2012, 06:12 PM
With anabelcroft and the assorted lunatics of that ilk, they always trot out numbers and statistics when debating Graf and Seles to proclaim Steffi as THE GREATEST!!11`1~!~~! However, when Court and Graf are discussed, anabelcroft and her crowd suddenly begin screaming context and talk about depleted fields and lack of competition refusing to accept numbers.

It was funny at first. Now it's just sad and pathetic.