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moby
Aug 9th, 2012, 04:49 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/07/father-letter-disowning-gay-son_n_1752053.html?utm_hp_ref=gay-voices

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/719684/thumbs/o-LETTER-TO-GAY-SON-570.jpg?4

Nicolás89
Aug 9th, 2012, 05:18 AM
Best birthday ever?

The Witch-king
Aug 9th, 2012, 08:44 AM
I miss when people used to write letters :sad:

ranfurly
Aug 9th, 2012, 09:22 AM
What a great Dad, I'd sure like to get on the chop with that ol' codger!

Mashabator
Aug 9th, 2012, 10:40 AM
LOL what a fucking heartless parent. Hate how he used the word choice throughout. Sorry but what person would choose to be part of a minority group which is abused and discriminated against? :o if my dad did this i would be so angry

Andy.
Aug 9th, 2012, 12:12 PM
LOL what a fucking heartless parent. Hate how he used the word choice throughout. Sorry but what person would choose to be part of a minority group which is abused and discriminated against? :o if my dad did this i would be so angry

I know...makes me sooo mad.

Mashabator
Aug 9th, 2012, 01:09 PM
^ same, tbh if my parents did that id somehow force them to understand that im gay no matter what it took

Expat
Aug 9th, 2012, 01:21 PM
that's not even mildly harsh. give the father 7 years at max.

Super Dave
Aug 9th, 2012, 02:22 PM
As a father, I just don't get how it is possible to do this to your son.

Lord Choc Ice
Aug 9th, 2012, 02:37 PM
What a coincidence reading this today! My Dad told me today that if I ever found a BF (at the moment since I'm single I'm not a 'practicing' homosexual) he'd do this to me as well.

I don't think he'd disown me as in pretend that I don't exist, but he sure wouldn't want to spend any time with me :lol:. One of my sister's is the same.

Gotta love religious families :tears:.

Javi.
Aug 9th, 2012, 03:07 PM
This is so sad :sad:

LoveFifteen
Aug 9th, 2012, 03:51 PM
What's up with the "no present exchanges will be accepted" part? :rolls:

Michalka
Aug 9th, 2012, 03:51 PM
bigotry!

Dominic
Aug 9th, 2012, 04:09 PM
What a coincidence reading this today! My Dad told me today that if I ever found a BF (at the moment since I'm single I'm not a 'practicing' homosexual) he'd do this to me as well.

I don't think he'd disown me as in pretend that I don't exist, but he sure wouldn't want to spend any time with me :lol:. One of my sister's is the same.

Gotta love religious families :tears:.

Oh god :rolleyes:

:hug: :hug: :hug:

matthias
Aug 9th, 2012, 04:21 PM
really sad, and :hug: at Diamondtieva

shap_half
Aug 9th, 2012, 04:23 PM
Given the circumstances, this is a fairly polite letter.

Doully
Aug 9th, 2012, 04:28 PM
Given the circumstances, this is a fairly polite letter.

I was thinking the same thing. A letter is better than what a lot of gay men and women get from unsupportive parents. :tape:

miffedmax
Aug 9th, 2012, 04:33 PM
I thought it was bad when an ex-girlfriend dumped me on voice mail, but that wins.

pov
Aug 9th, 2012, 04:35 PM
Hate how he used the word choice throughout. Sorry but what person would choose to be part of a minority group which is abused and discriminated against?
There are many people who have chosen to be gay. Your rationale focuses only on the negative. If people were truly like that no one in the USA would have ever become a Muslim or married inter-ethnically back in the day.

pov
Aug 9th, 2012, 04:40 PM
- Parents have disowned their children for many reasons. And children have disowned their parents.

- To me it is strange that such a letter was made public. So far there is no verification of its authenticity. Even the article states "allegedly penned by an unsupportive father to his gay son"

shap_half
Aug 9th, 2012, 04:48 PM
You're annoying.

moby
Aug 9th, 2012, 04:51 PM
It's by a 33 year-old LA guy with the username RegBarc on Reddit.
Not sure if he has revealed his full name, but maybe he doesn't want to?

Anyway, I like the bit where the father tries to guilt the son re: his funeral.

pov
Aug 9th, 2012, 04:55 PM
It's by a 33 year-old LA guy with the username RegBarc on Reddit.
Not sure if he has revealed his full name, but maybe he doesn't want to?
It was posted by that person with the heading "5 years ago, I was disowned via letter when I came out to my father." That alone doesn't prove anything.

pov
Aug 9th, 2012, 04:56 PM
You're annoying.
Excellent!

Nicolás89
Aug 9th, 2012, 04:58 PM
There are many people who have chosen to be gay. Your rationale focuses only on the negative. If people were truly like that no one in the USA would have ever become a Muslim or married inter-ethnically back in the day.

I can't.

moby
Aug 9th, 2012, 05:01 PM
It was posted by that person with the heading "5 years ago, I was disowned via letter when I came out to my father." That alone doesn't prove anything.I don't know if you are familiar with navigating Reddit or the internet in general, but you can click on the username and see his recent comments and it most definitely seems as though he is talking about himself. You can get more details to piece together a story via his comments. Of course it doesn't prove anything. The only way we could prove this story is real is to find the guy, find his family, and do some kind of handwriting analysis on his dad. Though the dad might be part of the conspiracy, so who knows? You'd probably have to interview their friends and extended families too.

But even then, they could all be in it together, arggghhh!!! *cue scary X-files music*

pov
Aug 9th, 2012, 05:06 PM
Of course it doesn't prove anything. The only way we could prove this story is real is to find the guy, find his family, and do some kind of handwriting analysis on his dad. Though the dad might be part of the conspiracy, so who knows? You'd probably have to interview their friends and extended families too.

But even then, they could all be in it together, arggghhh!!! *cue scary X-files music*
:lol: My point simply was that to me it seemed strange and that there was no verification. It may well be completely valid. On the other hand, if you think people don't often post fake shite online then hey . .:shrug:

Dominic
Aug 9th, 2012, 05:12 PM
There are many people who have chosen to be gay.

Tell me one logical reason why someone would choose that? (I'm very unconfortable using the word "choose" even in this context as attraction is not something that can be chosen, it's even part of the actual definition of the word.)

Javi.
Aug 9th, 2012, 05:23 PM
There are many people who have chosen to be gay. Your rationale focuses only on the negative. If people were truly like that no one in the USA would have ever become a Muslim or married inter-ethnically back in the day.

You are so wrong.
Nobody chooses to be gay or to be straight :facepalm:
It's like nobody chooses to be 1,80 meters tall or to have blue eyes.

pov
Aug 9th, 2012, 05:35 PM
You are so wrong.
Nobody chooses to be gay or to be straight
Wow . .how shocking that you think that. :haha: It's a common belief. However it's simply a fact that there are people who choose to be gay and some who choose to be straight. The fact that most are not consciously making that choice doesn't change that. What's even funnier is that mindsets like yours are part of what fuels hostile discrimination. That is you believe what ever has currency. So if you were in the era when it was "known" that homosexuality was a psychological aberration, you'd be ingesting and spewing that garbage. And yeah . .I know . you're convinced that you wouldn't be.

Miss Amor
Aug 9th, 2012, 05:47 PM
My granddad disinherited and disowned me for being gay.

Super Dave
Aug 9th, 2012, 05:48 PM
I thought it was bad when an ex-girlfriend dumped me on voice mail, but that wins.

I have a 44-year-old friend who was recently dumped via text, which is just horseshit. Who knows how our grandkids will get dumped.

Miss Amor
Aug 9th, 2012, 05:49 PM
Wow . .how shocking that you think that. :haha: It's a common belief. However it's simply a fact that there are people who choose to be gay and some who choose to be straight.

So why did you choose to be straight?

Monica_Rules
Aug 9th, 2012, 06:08 PM
Wow . .how shocking that you think that. :haha: It's a common belief. However it's simply a fact that there are people who choose to be gay and some who choose to be straight. The fact that most are not consciously making that choice doesn't change that. What's even funnier is that mindsets like yours are part of what fuels hostile discrimination. That is you believe what ever has currency. So if you were in the era when it was "known" that homosexuality was a psychological aberration, you'd be ingesting and spewing that garbage. And yeah . .I know . you're convinced that you wouldn't be.


OMG this has to be one of the most stupid things I have ever read. You clearly are ignorant to the topic so may be in future you should learn to shut up about things you clearly know nothing about.

Nicolás89
Aug 9th, 2012, 06:47 PM
If some people chooses to be gay or straight or bi, wouldn't that mean they were something else before making that decission? :confused:

The Dawntreader
Aug 9th, 2012, 06:55 PM
Oh well. I bet he wasn't rich anyway.

Dominic
Aug 9th, 2012, 06:57 PM
I'm VERY interested in finding out why on earth POV thinks that sexuality is a choice, how he got to that conclusion.. I'm seriously fascinated by ppl who think that way.

Dominic
Aug 9th, 2012, 06:59 PM
Wow . .how shocking that you think that. :haha: It's a common belief. However it's simply a fact that there are people who choose to be gay and some who choose to be straight. The fact that most are not consciously making that choice doesn't change that. What's even funnier is that mindsets like yours are part of what fuels hostile discrimination. That is you believe what ever has currency. So if you were in the era when it was "known" that homosexuality was a psychological aberration, you'd be ingesting and spewing that garbage. And yeah . .I know . you're convinced that you wouldn't be.

Any reasonning/arguments/evidence?? Or are you just talking out of your ass?

Petersmiler
Aug 9th, 2012, 07:00 PM
So Pov, when was your first gay fantasy? You clearly chose to be straight, indicating you must have had homosexual tendencies at some point. Tell me, was it John Travolta? Go on, you can whisper it if you like.


Sent from my iPhone using VS Free

LoveFifteen
Aug 9th, 2012, 07:07 PM
For pov, it is a choice every day to "practice the heterosexual lifestyle" despite the homosexual desires warring for supremacy within him. So, yes, the way someone expresses his sexual desires and longings is certainly a choice. Let's not be so hard on pov, a person clearly haunted and disquieted by his unwanted gay desires. This is a very hard choice that requires an iron will and steely determination. It's like training for a marathon. You have to fight every day to keep choosing your sexuality.

Petersmiler
Aug 9th, 2012, 07:10 PM
For pov, it is a choice every day to "practice the heterosexual lifestyle" despite the homosexual desires warring for supremacy within him. So, yes, the way someone expresses his sexual desires and longings is certainly a choice. Let's not be so hard on pov, a person clearly haunted and disquieted by his unwanted gay desires. This is a very hard choice that requires an iron will and steely determination. It's like training for a marathon. You have to fight every day to keep choosing your sexuality.

Lol, how do I give rep using this new fangled app???


Sent from my iPhone using VS Free

matthias
Aug 9th, 2012, 07:11 PM
Lol, how do I give rep using this new fangled app???


Sent from my iPhone using VS Free


i guess you can not give rep with the app

Shuji Shuriken
Aug 9th, 2012, 07:18 PM
Wait. It's bad to break up with someone via text message? I did that quite a few times...

moby
Aug 9th, 2012, 07:25 PM
nb0s1AePP2g

shap_half
Aug 9th, 2012, 07:28 PM
Wait. It's bad to break up with someone via text message? I did that quite a few times...

I think even doing it over the phone is bad form. If we've gone out more than once, you do it to my face.

Shuji Shuriken
Aug 9th, 2012, 07:34 PM
I think even doing it over the phone is bad form. If we've gone out more than once, you do it to my face.
Well...it was with guys physically bigger than me who didn't agree we should break up. I, on the other hand, was completely done. I didn't want to meet up though. I was scared of getting beat up (one of my exes had violent tendencies :tape: ).

shap_half
Aug 9th, 2012, 07:43 PM
As long as you have a reason...

Javi.
Aug 9th, 2012, 08:30 PM
Wow . .how shocking that you think that. :haha: It's a common belief. However it's simply a fact that there are people who choose to be gay and some who choose to be straight. The fact that most are not consciously making that choice doesn't change that. What's even funnier is that mindsets like yours are part of what fuels hostile discrimination. That is you believe what ever has currency. So if you were in the era when it was "known" that homosexuality was a psychological aberration, you'd be ingesting and spewing that garbage. And yeah . .I know . you're convinced that you wouldn't be.

:weirdo:
This is one of the most stupid things I've read lately.

miffedmax
Aug 9th, 2012, 08:35 PM
So why did you choose to be straight?

Sandy Tucker. She had a huge honker and bangs but she moved away before I even knew what a vajayjay was. :sobbing:

pov
Aug 9th, 2012, 09:27 PM
:weirdo:
This is one of the most stupid things I've read lately.
:lol: Again . I'm so surprised by your response. My apologies that your lack of critical thinking results in thinking that.

dybbuk
Aug 9th, 2012, 09:32 PM
So pov, we're desperately awaiting your wisdom. None of us can can figure out why someone would choose to be gay when as far as we can see they gain nothing from it and lose a lot. Can you please clear it up for us?

pov
Aug 9th, 2012, 09:41 PM
So why did you choose to be straight?
Why did you ignore that I said there are some people that choose? In my post I didn't say all, or even most . . . some.


And let's take this to a conclusion many seem to ignore. If the validity of homosexuality rests primarily on people being born that way then the logical course is to identify the genes and treat infants so they don't grow up with such a trait.

So yeah I'm straight but I think being gay or bisexual is just as valid. To truly support that validity, sexual orientation must be valued for more than being a biological trait.

Nicolás89
Aug 9th, 2012, 09:44 PM
Why did you ignore that I said there are some people that choose? In my post I didn't say all, or even most . . . some.


And let's take this to a conclusion many seem to ignore. If the validity of homosexuality rests primarily on people being born that way then the logical course is to identify the genes and treat infants so they don't grow up with such a trait.

So yeah I'm straight but I think being gay or bisexual is just as valid. To truly support that validity, sexual orientation must be valued for more than being a biological trait.

You kind of contradict yourself there.

dybbuk
Aug 9th, 2012, 09:46 PM
Why did you ignore that I said there are some people that choose? In my post I didn't say all, or even most . . . some.


And let's take this to a conclusion many seem to ignore. If the validity of homosexuality rests primarily on people being born that way then the logical course is to identify the genes and treat infants so they don't grow up with such a trait.

So yeah I'm straight but I think being gay or bisexual is just as valid. To truly support that validity, sexual orientation must be valued for more than being a biological trait.

All of this is fine and dandy, but none of it backs up your arguments in here.

égalité
Aug 9th, 2012, 09:48 PM
Why did you ignore that I said there are some people that choose? In my post I didn't say all, or even most . . . some.


And let's take this to a conclusion many seem to ignore. If the validity of homosexuality rests primarily on people being born that way then the logical course is to identify the genes and treat infants so they don't grow up with such a trait.

So yeah I'm straight but I think being gay or bisexual is just as valid. To truly support that validity, sexual orientation must be valued for more than being a biological trait.

I agree with this post completely (for once).

The focus on convincing homophobes that we were "born this way" does a lot of harm, because 1. homophobes usually don't believe it, 2. those who do believe it will see it as something that can be "fixed," 3. it sends the message that we need to provide a reason for our sexual identites (which we don't), 4. it inevitably leads to comparisons with birth defects, which is offensive, and 5. it delegitimizes parts of sexual/gender identity that are results of choice, like how transgender people choose to present themselves/if they choose to undergo surgery or not.

However, re the bolded part, I don't think whether people will start medically altering a fetus's sexuality depends on what our focus is. If homosexuality is found to be genetic, people will do it regardless of what our focus is.

Novichok
Aug 9th, 2012, 09:49 PM
Why did you ignore that I said there are some people that choose? In my post I didn't say all, or even most . . . some.


And let's take this to a conclusion many seem to ignore. If the validity of homosexuality rests primarily on people being born that way then the logical course is to identify the genes and treat infants so they don't grow up with such a trait.

So yeah I'm straight but I think being gay or bisexual is just as valid. To truly support that validity, sexual orientation must be valued for more than being a biological trait.

Your "logical course" isn't logical at all. :tape:

Anyway, whether or not being gay is a choice doesn't in any way affect its moral acceptability.

pov
Aug 9th, 2012, 09:57 PM
None of us can can figure out why someone would choose to be gay when as far as we can see they gain nothing from it and lose a lot. Can you please clear it up for us?
So let me see if I have this correctly - because you think that being gay sucks, you're asking me to explain why some people choose it? Interesting. Very interesting.

So - by your "logic" - when Christians were being persecuted and executed no one else chose to be Christian.

I mean?? If you want to argue for the popular opinion that no one chooses their sexuality then do so, but arguing that people won't chose something because they'll be persecuted for their choice is spurious at best. Not to mention that nowadays there are many places where people can live and be gay with little to no negative connotations.

Novichok
Aug 9th, 2012, 10:01 PM
So let me see if I have this correctly - because you think that being gay sucks, you're asking me to explain why some people choose it? Interesting. Very interesting.

So - by your "logic" - when Christians were being persecuted and executed no one else chose to be Christian.

I mean?? If you want to argue for the popular opinion that no one chooses their sexuality then do so, but arguing that people won't chose something because they'll be persecuted for their choice is spurious at best. Not to mention that nowadays there are many places where people can live and be gay with little to no negative connotations.

That is not his logic (at least from the post you've quoted). :lol:

Can you tell me how one goes about choosing their sexual orientation? At what age do they? Do you have any evidence?

Nicolás89
Aug 9th, 2012, 10:05 PM
That is not his logic (at least from the post you've quoted). :lol:

Can you tell me how one goes about choosing their sexual orientation? At what age do they? Do you have any evidence?

That's what would like to know too. He seems to be very sure that what he is saying is a scientific fact.

dybbuk
Aug 9th, 2012, 10:15 PM
So let me see if I have this correctly - because you think that being gay sucks, you're asking me to explain why some people choose it? Interesting. Very interesting.

So - by your "logic" - when Christians were being persecuted and executed no one else chose to be Christian.

I mean?? If you want to argue for the popular opinion that no one chooses their sexuality then do so, but arguing that people won't chose something because they'll be persecuted for their choice is spurious at best. Not to mention that nowadays there are many places where people can live and be gay with little to no negative connotations.

Where have I said being gay sucks? Society sucks and being gay gets you absolutely no benefits, while being straight gets you plenty. So I'm asking you to explain why someone would choose to be gay when they gain nothing. Unless of course they DIDN'T choose to be gay and accepting it gains them peace of mind and the ability to live their fully live their life. (Ding ding ding)

The Christian comparison is silly at best. In the minds of Christians they DO gain something by choosing to be Christian, even in the face of persecution. They gain eternal life. That of course is a whole different discussion, but the comparison doesn't hold water. For you to use this comparison you're going to have to come up with something that a gay person would gain for choosing that to make it worthwhile.

And Novichok, he doesn't. I've been asking for even a sliver of evidence of how he is so sure he knows what being gay is that he is telling actual GAY PEOPLE he knows more than they do.

Certinfy
Aug 9th, 2012, 10:26 PM
At least he wrote it out.

mykarma
Aug 9th, 2012, 10:32 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/07/father-letter-disowning-gay-son_n_1752053.html?utm_hp_ref=gay-voices

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/719684/thumbs/o-LETTER-TO-GAY-SON-570.jpg?4
Damn, how sad.

mykarma
Aug 9th, 2012, 10:35 PM
There are many people who have chosen to be gay. Your rationale focuses only on the negative. If people were truly like that no one in the USA would have ever become a Muslim or married inter-ethnically back in the day.
And you know that how?

mykarma
Aug 9th, 2012, 10:37 PM
- Parents have disowned their children for many reasons. And children have disowned their parents.

- To me it is strange that such a letter was made public. So far there is no verification of its authenticity. Even the article states "allegedly penned by an unsupportive father to his gay son"
:facepalm:

Infiniti2001
Aug 10th, 2012, 03:59 AM
Apparently daddy dearest fail to realize that the problem is with him and not with his son :facepalm:

Mashabator
Aug 10th, 2012, 05:52 AM
There are many people who have chosen to be gay. Your rationale focuses only on the negative. If people were truly like that no one in the USA would have ever become a Muslim or married inter-ethnically back in the day.

Unless your gay, which you dont seem to be i dont think you have any reason to be commenting on whether someone chooses to be gay or not. Straight people don't choose to be straight, they just are and it is the same for gay people.

So with this in light i think its very heartless and sad that a parent would disown someone for something they cannot control.

Mashabator
Aug 10th, 2012, 05:54 AM
If some people chooses to be gay or straight or bi, wouldn't that mean they were something else before making that decission? :confused:

exactly, if someone chooses to be gay wouldnt that mean they were straight but just choosing to sleep with the same gender? it doesnt make sense.

Miss Amor
Aug 10th, 2012, 07:22 AM
Why did you ignore that I said there are some people that choose? In my post I didn't say all, or even most . . . some.

.

So let me get this right, you yourself didn't choose your sexuality but were born with it and yet you are making an assumption that others choose their sexuality? Do you then know anyone who has chosen to be homosexual?

McPie
Aug 10th, 2012, 07:30 AM
and they called that older people gets, the more maturity people will have :shrug:

Tennisation
Aug 10th, 2012, 09:53 AM
and they called that older people gets, the more maturity people will have :shrug:Maturity is a part of growing up not necessarily a part of growing old. outdated and out of touch with modern society is the more correct term.

miffedmax
Aug 10th, 2012, 03:25 PM
So let me get this right, you yourself didn't choose your sexuality but were born with it and yet you are making an assumption that others choose their sexuality? Do you then know anyone who has chosen to be homosexual?

Yes. My brother chose to be homosexual when he noticed he liked having sex with other guys. I was like "Dude, I hear great things about this Dr. Marcus Bachman," but he was determined to be gay.*













*there may have been some sarcasm involved in this post.

shap_half
Aug 10th, 2012, 03:54 PM
If anal is anything to go, we are a determined bunch, aren't we?

Keep plugging along, guys!

shap_half
Aug 10th, 2012, 04:03 PM
Response to the aforementioned letter from the HuffPo.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-kinnear/dear-hypothetically-gay-son_b_1757663.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000008&utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false

Dear hypothetically gay son,

You're gay. Obviously you already know that, because you told us at the dinner table last night. I apologize for the awkward silence afterwards, but I was chewing. It was like when we're at a restaurant and the waiter comes up mid-bite and asks how the meal is, only in this metaphor you are the waiter, and instead of asking me about my meal, you said you were gay. I don't know why I needed to explain that. I think I needed to find a funny way to repeat the fact that you're gay... because that is what it sounds like in my head right now: "My son is gay. My son is gay. My son is gay."

Let me be perfectly clear: I love you. I will always love you. Since being gay is part of who you are, I love that you're gay. I'm just trying to wrap my head around the idea. If you sensed any sadness in my silence last night, it was because I was surprised that I was surprised. Ideally, I would have already known. Since you were an embryo, my intent has always been to really know you for who you are and not who I expect you to be. And yet, I was taken by surprise at last night's dinner. Have I said "surprise" enough in this paragraph? One more time: Surprise!

OK. Let's get a few things straight about how things are going to be.

1. Our home is a place of safety and love. The world has dealt you a difficult card. While LGBT people are becoming more accepted, it is still a difficult path to walk. You're going to experience hate and anger and misunderstandings about who you are out in the world. That will not happen here. You need to know with every fiber of who you are that when you walk in the front door of your home, you are safe, and you are loved. Your mother is in complete agreement with me on this.

2. I am still, as always, your biggest defender. Just because you're gay doesn't mean you're any less capable of taking care of and defending yourself. That said, if you need me to stand next to you or in front of you, write letters, sign petitions, advocate, or anything else, I am here. I would go to war for you.

3. If you're going to have boys over, you now need to leave your bedroom door open. Sorry, kiddo. Them's the breaks. I couldn't have girls in my room with the door shut, so you don't get to have boys.

4. You and I are going to revisit that talk we had about safe sex. I know it's going to be awkward for both of us, but it is important. I need to do some research first, so let's give it a few weeks. If you have questions or concerns before then, let me know.

That's enough for now. Feel free to view this letter as a contract. If I ever fail to meet any of the commitments made herein, pull it out and hold me to account. I'll end with this: You are not broken. You are whole, and beautiful. You are capable and compassionate. You and your sister are the best things I have ever done with my life, and I couldn't be prouder of the people you've become.

Love,
Dad

P.S. Thanks to a few key Supreme Court decisions and the Marriage Equality Act of 2020, you're legally able to get married. When I was your age, that was just an idea. Pretty cool, huh?

I'm at the office, and I had to run to the bathroom, because I was sobbing.

Javi.
Aug 10th, 2012, 04:23 PM
Response to the aforementioned letter from the HuffPo.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-kinnear/dear-hypothetically-gay-son_b_1757663.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000008&utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false



I'm at the office, and I had to run to the bathroom, because I was sobbing.

OMG :sobbing: :sobbing:

Dominic
Aug 10th, 2012, 04:31 PM
I agree with this post completely (for once).

The focus on convincing homophobes that we were "born this way" does a lot of harm, because 1. homophobes usually don't believe it, 2. those who do believe it will see it as something that can be "fixed," 3. it sends the message that we need to provide a reason for our sexual identites (which we don't), 4. it inevitably leads to comparisons with birth defects, which is offensive, and 5. it delegitimizes parts of sexual/gender identity that are results of choice, like how transgender people choose to present themselves/if they choose to undergo surgery or not.


That's all well and good but even if you made a list of 1000, sexuality is still not a choice and I still wanna know why someone would think that.

moby
Aug 10th, 2012, 04:41 PM
^ Yeah, I agree. When gay people are adamant that sexuality is not a choice (for the vast majority), it's not only because they are trying to convince others for political reasons; it doesn't detract from being gay, doesn't mean that we would have chosen otherwise if we could, doesn't mean it's a birth defect.

It's just an attempt at a factual claim, founded by our personal experiences and those of our "tribe" (as Paul Monette would call it). For someone who's never had that personal experience to assert something contradictory is of course upsetting.

Like, who's the fucking expert here?

Dominic
Aug 10th, 2012, 04:50 PM
Response to the aforementioned letter from the HuffPo.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-kinnear/dear-hypothetically-gay-son_b_1757663.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000008&utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false


Wow what a great dad :sobbing:

shap_half
Aug 10th, 2012, 04:51 PM
Well, I didn't choose, but my cousin's dog-walker's sister's roommate in college's maid's aunt's warlock trainer's mom's manicurist did.

Write that shit in the bible.

Dominic
Aug 10th, 2012, 04:54 PM
Well, I didn't choose, but my cousin's dog-walker's sister's roommate in college's maid's aunt's warlock trainer's mom's manicurist did.


OMG I think I know him!

shap_half
Aug 10th, 2012, 04:58 PM
OMG I think I know him!

We must all have been in the same brainwashing clinic!!! :bounce: Didn't work me or my roommate. :oh:

Nicolás89
Aug 10th, 2012, 11:39 PM
Ok, am I the only one who thinks, being born gay =/= being gay isn't a choice. I obviously wasn't gay when I reached puberty, I liked girls to a sexual level but then it wasn't a choice of mine when I started to like boys like that. :shrug:

dybbuk
Aug 10th, 2012, 11:48 PM
Ok, am I the only one who thinks, being born gay =/= being gay isn't a choice. I obviously wasn't gay when I reached puberty, I liked girls to a sexual level but then it wasn't a choice of mine when I started to like boys like that. :shrug:

I noticed this flaw in pov's approach too. He seems to set it as you are either born that way or chose to be that way. There's another option that someone wasn't born that way but didn't choose it either, a variety of factors came together for it and they had no say in the matter.

Olórin
Aug 11th, 2012, 12:31 AM
Why did you ignore that I said there are some people that choose? In my post I didn't say all, or even most . . . some.


And let's take this to a conclusion many seem to ignore. If the validity of homosexuality rests primarily on people being born that way then the logical course is to identify the genes and treat infants so they don't grow up with such a trait.

So yeah I'm straight but I think being gay or bisexual is just as valid. To truly support that validity, sexual orientation must be valued for more than being a biological trait.

The fact you even talk in those terms is disturbing to me. Not to mention you then go on to talk about genetic modification and gene therapy as if they're morally neutral issues - based on the assumption that homosexuality should be eradicated if possible? It's almost beyond belief that you think this is all reasonable analysis.

Sometimes you make posts (mostly to do with tennis) that seem so reasonable, but then I read your posts in non-tennis and it seems probable again that your just some ignorant person among million equally as ignorant.

Dav.
Aug 11th, 2012, 12:36 AM
Is this pov serious? :hysteric:

ToopsTame
Aug 11th, 2012, 12:43 AM
I definitely chose it. How could you not, with all the distractingly hot men walking around?

mykarma
Aug 11th, 2012, 12:54 AM
The fact you even talk in those terms is disturbing to me. Not to mention you then go on to talk about genetic modification and gene therapy as if they're morally neutral issues - based on the assumption that homosexuality should be eradicated if possible? It's almost beyond belief that you think this is all reasonable analysis.

Sometimes you make posts (mostly to do with tennis) that seem so reasonable, but then I read your posts in non-tennis and it seems probable again that your just some ignorant person among million equally as ignorant.
Reading that part of his post made me want to puke. Reminds me of the Tuskegee Syphilis experiment with poor black men.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment

Dominic
Aug 11th, 2012, 01:27 AM
I definitely chose it. How could you not, with all the distractingly hot men walking around?

Oh and did you choose to find them hot?

In The Zone
Aug 11th, 2012, 01:35 AM
Wait. Why does homosexuality need to be eradicated? I think we have plenty of men, like that man with 30 kids and he is only 30, to keep the human race going.

Besides, for the good of the human race, I'll gladly contribute my superior seed in the best non-heterosexual contact way I can. :)

Dave.
Aug 11th, 2012, 02:40 AM
I noticed this flaw in pov's approach too. He seems to set it as you are either born that way or chose to be that way. There's another option that someone wasn't born that way but didn't choose it either, a variety of factors came together for it and they had no say in the matter.

This has got me thinking, has anyone read "Virtually Normal" by Andrew Sullivan? The prologue "What is a homosexual?" is probably the best account that I've read as far as far as the early experience of gay male children (it's written by a man so I don't know how far, if at all, it aims to deal with the experience of gay women).
If anything, it's an interesting read and I think thoroughly rebuffs the idea that it is a choice.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Ut5lM1TWDCMC&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=virtually+normal+prologue&source=bl&ots=Ol5yr80XK3&sig=aO5N1D1ppOjsbdCIdO3O5_9molU&sa=X&ei=1LMlUPGfDKLB0QWGpYGgCg&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=virtually%20normal%20prologue&f=false

Expat
Aug 11th, 2012, 03:06 AM
there are definitely people for whom homosexuality is a choice e.g. cynthia nixon.
http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=452666&highlight=cynthia+nixon

as for making a choice that would make people discriminate against you plenty of people do that. it ranges from wearing fugly clothes to being fat in a gay bar. i recall a lot more bullying going on in school because someone was fat than for someone being gay.

this whole homosexuality is not a choice is only a ploy to make it easier for society to accept us like we are suffering from a disease like down's syndrome. on the other hand if we discovered a gay gene and people started aborting their gay children what happens then? do gays turn into pro-lifers then?

Novichok
Aug 11th, 2012, 03:08 AM
Cynthia Nixon is bisexual. The choice she's made is to pursue a relationship with a woman.

Sam L
Aug 11th, 2012, 03:12 AM
There are a lot of women who choose to be with women because they've been seriously hurt (physically or emotionally) by men and can't go back to that kind of relationship. I don't really consider them homosexual.

Towanda
Aug 13th, 2012, 09:38 AM
Why did you ignore that I said there are some people that choose? In my post I didn't say all, or even most . . . some.


And let's take this to a conclusion many seem to ignore. If the validity of homosexuality rests primarily on people being born that way then the logical course is to identify the genes and treat infants so they don't grow up with such a trait.So yeah I'm straight but I think being gay or bisexual is just as valid. To truly support that validity, sexual orientation must be valued for more than being a biological trait.

If being gay or bisexual is just as valid, then why suggest that infants with the gay gene be treated? Given that we are overpopulating the earth beyond it's carrying capacity, perhaps it would make more sense to identify the hetero infants, and treat them.

Lord Choc Ice
Aug 13th, 2012, 02:52 PM
The threat of being disowned is still looming, but I said on FB today under no uncertain terms that I couldn't change even if I wanted to and if people don't like it it's their problem :).

Of course the idea of being disowned hurts but I'm undeterred...

Dominic
Aug 13th, 2012, 04:30 PM
there are definitely people for whom homosexuality is a choice e.g. cynthia nixon.
http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=452666&highlight=cynthia+nixon

as for making a choice that would make people discriminate against you plenty of people do that. it ranges from wearing fugly clothes to being fat in a gay bar. i recall a lot more bullying going on in school because someone was fat than for someone being gay.

this whole homosexuality is not a choice is only a ploy to make it easier for society to accept us like we are suffering from a disease like down's syndrome. on the other hand if we discovered a gay gene and people started aborting their gay children what happens then? do gays turn into pro-lifers then?

I'm not sure you're serious :unsure: ALL of this is wrong. Ppl do not choose to be fat or wear ugly clothes, Ppl are fat because don't eat well and don't exercice, they're not fat on purpose... And ppl wear "ugly" clothes to your eye, either because to them those clothes look good or they're too poor to buy expensive clothes that might be considered nicer by someone like you.

Ok so you're saying you could be sexually attracted to women if you wanted? Why did you choose to be a homosexual man instead of heterosexual?

égalité
Aug 13th, 2012, 04:54 PM
I'm not sure you're serious :unsure: ALL of this is wrong. Ppl do not choose to be fat or wear ugly clothes, Ppl are fat because don't eat well and don't exercice, they're not fat on purpose... And ppl wear "ugly" clothes to your eye, either because to them those clothes look good or they're too poor to buy expensive clothes that might be considered nicer by someone like you.

Ok so you're saying you could be sexually attracted to women if you wanted? Why did you choose to be a homosexual man instead of heterosexual?

Isn't it a choice to eat poorly and not exercise? :scratch:

shap_half
Aug 13th, 2012, 05:03 PM
Unless you have some sort of illness or disease, what your body looks like is in large part your choice.

Dominic
Aug 13th, 2012, 05:32 PM
Isn't it a choice to eat poorly and not exercise? :scratch:

Yep, Being fat is the CONSEQUENCE of those things. Ask those ppl if they would choose to be fat or slim if they could, about 100% would answer slim, that's why that analogy was horrible.

Dominic
Aug 13th, 2012, 05:40 PM
Unless you have some sort of illness or disease, what your body looks like is in large part your choice.

What your body looks like is the result of a zillion choices you make everyday.

Sexuality is about who you are physically attracted to, has absolutely NOTHING to do with choices

Lord Choc Ice
Aug 15th, 2012, 01:02 PM
Looks like I'm not getting disowned. Tonight we chatted and I think he backtracked. He definitely implied it last week, so whether he's chickened out or just changed his mind I don't know.

But the problems of course are still there :p.

tenn_ace
Aug 15th, 2012, 01:41 PM
Wow . .how shocking that you think that. :haha: It's a common belief. However it's simply a fact that there are people who choose to be gay and some who choose to be straight. The fact that most are not consciously making that choice doesn't change that. What's even funnier is that mindsets like yours are part of what fuels hostile discrimination. That is you believe what ever has currency. So if you were in the era when it was "known" that homosexuality was a psychological aberration, you'd be ingesting and spewing that garbage. And yeah . .I know . you're convinced that you wouldn't be.


I think there is a severe abberation in your head that needs urgent medical attention. And I hope that your farther won't disown you for that reason. :wavey:

Mikey.
Aug 15th, 2012, 02:00 PM
Looks like I'm not getting disowned. Tonight we chatted and I think he backtracked. He definitely implied it last week, so whether he's chickened out or just changed his mind I don't know.

But the problems of course are still there :p.

:hug: Hope everything starts working out for you.

debby
Aug 15th, 2012, 02:29 PM
Response to the aforementioned letter from the HuffPo.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-kinnear/dear-hypothetically-gay-son_b_1757663.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000008&utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false



I'm at the office, and I had to run to the bathroom, because I was sobbing.
Omg... Tears in my eyes. :sobbing:

Ok, am I the only one who thinks, being born gay =/= being gay isn't a choice. I obviously wasn't gay when I reached puberty, I liked girls to a sexual level but then it wasn't a choice of mine when I started to like boys like that. :shrug:

I totally agree. I've always liked guys, never been attracted to women. And one day, I was attracted to one woman... Now it's only boys, this attraction is gone... but who knows, maybe that attraction to women might come back, I don't even know.

So yes I don't think it's either "born this way" or a choice. It's far more complex than that.

I noticed this flaw in pov's approach too. He seems to set it as you are either born that way or chose to be that way. There's another option that someone wasn't born that way but didn't choose it either, a variety of factors came together for it and they had no say in the matter.

Yup.

The threat of being disowned is still looming, but I said on FB today under no uncertain terms that I couldn't change even if I wanted to and if people don't like it it's their problem :).

Of course the idea of being disowned hurts but I'm undeterred...

:hug: :hug:

Isn't it a choice to eat poorly and not exercise? :scratch:

Well, see eating veggies and fruits everyday can be expensive. Gym clubs, swimming pools tickets, etc. are all expensive. A new bike is expensive. I am not talking about obese people of course (even if that can be a consequence) but about people who are not exactly thin either.

Yep, Being fat is the CONSEQUENCE of those things. Ask those ppl if they would choose to be fat or slim if they could, about 100% would answer slim, that's why that analogy was horrible.

Totally true. There are also vicious circles after awhile. Nothing to do with homosexuality.

Looks like I'm not getting disowned. Tonight we chatted and I think he backtracked. He definitely implied it last week, so whether he's chickened out or just changed his mind I don't know.

But the problems of course are still there :p.

Maybe he just needs time, and he will realize how wrong he was. Perhaps try to show him the letter shap_half copied here ?

EDIT : I tend to believe we all have that gene that makes us sexually attracted to people so we would perpetuate the human race. And during our life, it's quite random. Women, men... Not a special gene if you want. It can be influenced to a small extent (the looks), and such... at the end of the day, the only thing that changes is the sex of the other one. When we are sexually attracted to someone or/and we fall in love, we for the most have the same reactions so...

Onslow
Aug 15th, 2012, 04:59 PM
There are a lot of women who choose to be with women because they've been seriously hurt (physically or emotionally) by men and can't go back to that kind of relationship. I don't really consider them homosexual.

Most women are bisexual http://shine.yahoo.com/love-sex/study-says-most-women-are-bisexual-2584654.html

moby
Aug 15th, 2012, 05:22 PM
Let's say it's possible to choose to be attracted to a particular sex.

This doesn't imply symmetry. Why would it be possible then to lose your attraction to the sex you were originally attracted to? If I understand, this is part where most ex-gay therapies break down. Most ex-ex-gays managed to be in heterosexual relationships but realised that these ultimately could not compare to their homosexual ones.

debby
Aug 15th, 2012, 05:25 PM
Let's say it's possible to choose to be attracted to a particular sex.

This doesn't imply symmetry. Why would it be possible then to lose your attraction to the sex you were originally attracted to? If I understand, this is part where most ex-gay therapies break down. Most ex-ex-gays managed to be in heterosexual relationships but realised that these ultimately could not compare to their homosexual ones.

Ex-gay? Is there such a thing?

LoveFifteen
Aug 15th, 2012, 07:03 PM
Ex-gay? Is there such a thing?

Even the leaders of ex-gay organizations have now admitted that they cannot make people into ex-gays. They can only help gay people to suppress and ignore their natural desires in the name of religion and morality.

$uricate
Aug 16th, 2012, 02:18 AM
I misread the title and thought it said Twitter. :sobbing:

$uricate
Aug 16th, 2012, 02:39 AM
Also.

A thread with gay in the title and Pov's all over it :oh: