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bobito
May 29th, 2012, 07:04 PM
Shouting "Come on!" or "Allez!" prematurely because you think you've hit a winner is hindrance.

Grunting in pain because you have cramp is, apparently, hindrance.

Screaming as loud as a jack-hammer to put your opponent off, however, is perfectly fine.

It seems the only instance in which Azderaki won't call hindrance is when a player is deliberately trying to hinder her opponent.

supergrunt
May 29th, 2012, 07:07 PM
Today she joined the ranks of Mariana Alves and the like.

Valanga
May 29th, 2012, 07:07 PM
She did give 2 or three points to Serena because she yelped during play. Maybe she tried to give a leeway but at the end she had to do it.

fouc
May 29th, 2012, 07:08 PM
srsly? is there any way to justify those decisions?

Ian Aberdon
May 29th, 2012, 07:08 PM
Ree lost. Deal with it.

Direwolf
May 29th, 2012, 07:08 PM
It's weird cause she gave it to Serena, to give Serena a break point in those games.

Joe.
May 29th, 2012, 07:08 PM
Rules are rules.

faboozadoo15
May 29th, 2012, 07:08 PM
It is a bit puzzling because she replayed the point that Serena would have won anyway, and then she gave 2 points to Serena which were up for grabs, one of them on a groan I hardly heard.

Certinfy
May 29th, 2012, 07:09 PM
Can't believe I used to have respect for her. :facepalm:

Great that Razzano still gave her a handshake though, much credit to her. :yeah:

supergrunt
May 29th, 2012, 07:09 PM
If you violate a rule in tennis more than once, doesn't the punishment get incrementally more severe every time? In other words, first offense is a warning, second is a point, third is a game?

Joe.
May 29th, 2012, 07:09 PM
She's doing her job at the end of the day- you may not agree with it but rules are rules, she has to enforce them.

TennisAddict84
May 29th, 2012, 07:09 PM
yea wtf was that? Eva seriously needs to simmer down...i used to think she was a good umpire too...

pov
May 29th, 2012, 07:10 PM
The first two hindrance calls were absolutely correct. The third one was iffy.

bobito
May 29th, 2012, 07:10 PM
She did give 2 or three points to Serena because she yelped during play. Maybe she tried to give a leeway but at the end she had to do it.

Then she should do likewise every time Sharapova, Azarenka, Williams, Schiavone, et al yell out during play, i.e. every damn point.

vspak
May 29th, 2012, 07:10 PM
Ok, now when Azarenka screaming she lost match 0-6, 0-6 ok?

killerqueen
May 29th, 2012, 07:10 PM
Grunting doesn't bother me at all, but I'm so in agreement. Every single day girls on tour grunt louder than that (yes, including my favourite before anyone wants to be a smart-arse) and nothing is done, but Razzano whimpers and it's hindrance? Both Virginie and Serena grunted louder than the whimpering in that match. Truly makes no sense!

I do feel sorry for Eva though. She's following the rules and doing her job correctly. It's just a silly rule to punish someone who is clearly trying to keep quiet but can't through pain! :lol:

Vincey!
May 29th, 2012, 07:10 PM
Eva had ONE bad call on hindrance today and it was the last one. It was very questionable, but she cleary heard something. Razzano did cry in the middle on the point, you don't do that. Grunting while hitting a shot is fine. Making noise after and before is not. that's simple. Deal with it, it's the rules.

fouc
May 29th, 2012, 07:10 PM
in the last situation Razzano screamed only because she was stretched to the maximum, she should be downgraded for this :shrug: And she's my fave umpire :/

bobito
May 29th, 2012, 07:11 PM
If you violate a rule in tennis more than once, doesn't the punishment get incrementally more severe every time? In other words, first offense is a warning, second is a point, third is a game?

Only with a code violation or time violation. Hindrance is not a code violation, it's just an automatic point to the opponent.

pov
May 29th, 2012, 07:12 PM
The first two hindrance calls were completely correct. The third - probably not. All-in-all she did a great job.

Vincey!
May 29th, 2012, 07:12 PM
Then she should do likewise every time Sharapova, Azarenka, Williams, Schiavone, et al yell out during play, i.e. every damn point.

LOL Sharapova, azarenka etc are grunting WHILE HITTING THE BALL. Not in the middle of the point before and after hitting a ball randomly. It's not because YOU think that grunting is to put off other players that you're right. It's been proven that grunting help your shots.

CameronCopper
May 29th, 2012, 07:12 PM
It's like she's trying to make it up for Serena. WEIRD.

Chip.
May 29th, 2012, 07:13 PM
Eva had ONE bad call on hindrance today and it was the last one. It was very questionable, but she cleary heard something. Razzano did cry in the middle on the point, you don't do that. Grunting while hitting a shot is fine. Making noise after and before is not. that's simple. Deal with it, it's the rules.

The thread should really be closed with this statement tbh. :yeah:

Doully
May 29th, 2012, 07:14 PM
Eva had ONE bad call on hindrance today and it was the last one. It was very questionable, but she cleary heard something. Razzano did cry in the middle on the point, you don't do that. Grunting while hitting a shot is fine. Making noise after and before is not. that's simple. Deal with it, it's the rules.

Thank you.

People are going to overlook the great umpiring Eva actually did today over the sake of one call. Virginie actually grunted much more emphatically before the initial point she was called on and I was surprised it took so long for Eva to call her on it.

Surely her initial hesitation to call hindrance can be overlooked after last years' USO?

bobito
May 29th, 2012, 07:14 PM
There is nothing in the rules that distinguishes between screaming every time you hit the ball and grunting in pain. If the latter is hindrance then it is utterly absurd to say that the former is not.

RR-87
May 29th, 2012, 07:15 PM
Eva had ONE bad call on hindrance today and it was the last one. It was very questionable, but she cleary heard something. Razzano did cry in the middle on the point, you don't do that. Grunting while hitting a shot is fine. Making noise after and before is not. that's simple. Deal with it, it's the rules.

exactly was Safina said while commentating the match on ES :worship:

Brena
May 29th, 2012, 07:16 PM
Ok, now when Azarenka screaming she lost match 0-6, 0-6 ok?

My thoughts exactly.
But Azderaki is seriously out of her mind. :weirdo:

killerqueen
May 29th, 2012, 07:16 PM
Eva had ONE bad call on hindrance today and it was the last one. It was very questionable, but she cleary heard something. Razzano did cry in the middle on the point, you don't do that. Grunting while hitting a shot is fine. Making noise after and before is not. that's simple. Deal with it, it's the rules.

I feel so bad for Eva, because she's only doing her job, and for the most part, she's done the right thing every time. She's going to take the shit for rules that don't really seem consistant.

Brena
May 29th, 2012, 07:16 PM
LOL Sharapova, azarenka etc are grunting WHILE HITTING THE BALL. Not in the middle of the point before and after hitting a ball randomly. It's not because YOU think that grunting is to put off other players that you're right. It's been proven that grunting help your shots.

Azarenka's yell lasts until the ball reaches her opponent.

donniedarkofan
May 29th, 2012, 07:17 PM
srsly? is there any way to justify those decisions?

Of course there is. She was actually right to take the point (s) away from Razzano.

MarkNL
May 29th, 2012, 07:17 PM
1st time:
Asderaki should have called for hindrance and she didn't.

2nd time:
She should have called for Hindrance and she did.

3rd time:
She called Hindrance for no reason.

4th time:
She called Hindrance for no reason.

Attention whore.... :cuckoo:

killerqueen
May 29th, 2012, 07:17 PM
exactly was Safina said while commentating the match on ES :worship:

Safina is commentating? :)

tennisfan146
May 29th, 2012, 07:18 PM
Eva did a good job. It's not her fault that the rules are so crappy.

donniedarkofan
May 29th, 2012, 07:18 PM
I feel so bad for Eva, because she's only doing her job, and for the most part, she's done the right thing every time. She's going to take the shit for rules that don't really seem consistant.

Exactly. People here tend to forget that these are the rules (or simply don't know them).

Cosmic Voices
May 29th, 2012, 07:18 PM
Eva's umpiring was supreme tonight :yeah:
First few times she called on Virgine, but then after a while I could understand her giving hindrance's.

She was only playing to the rules

TennisFan66
May 29th, 2012, 07:18 PM
I just cannot believe these 'hindrance' calls against Razzano. A little timid 'awww' is hindrance and a lost point, yet players like Sharapova and Azarenka can scream their lungs out every single time they strike the ball - and that's of course fine.

bandabou
May 29th, 2012, 07:19 PM
The one during the TB was more damning..alas, it is what it is.

donniedarkofan
May 29th, 2012, 07:19 PM
Eva did a good job. It's not her fault that the rules are so crappy.

This.

Vincey!
May 29th, 2012, 07:19 PM
Azarenka's yell lasts until the ball reaches her opponent.

Well my own personal opinion is that Azarenka's grunts are too long, but she still grunts while hitting the ball and she does that all the time, not randomly in the middle of a point :shrug:

~CANUCK~
May 29th, 2012, 07:20 PM
There is nothing in the rules that distinguishes between screaming every time you hit the ball and grunting in pain. If the latter is hindrance then it is utterly absurd to say that the former is not.

There is a difference, and it is the timing of the "grunt". It's been pointed out to you multiple times in the thread. If you grunt while hitting the ball, its ok, if you grunt when your opponent is hitting the ball, or just about to hit the ball, its a hindrance.

fouc
May 29th, 2012, 07:23 PM
Eva's umpiring was supreme tonight :yeah:
First few times she called on Virgine, but then after a while I could understand her giving hindrance's.

She was only playing to the rules

the last call was absolutely unjustified, there can't be no argue about it.
the other were ok, but she made a completely wrong decision on a MP!

Brena
May 29th, 2012, 07:23 PM
Well my own personal opinion is that Azarenka's grunts are too long, but she still grunts while hitting the ball and she does that all the time, not randomly in the middle of a point :shrug:

I know what you mean, but what if she, for example, hits a shot a stays silent, and then continues to yell with her next shot, what then? Was her unexpected silence a hindrance? Or is her every next yell a hindrance now? :lol:
This has been discussed to death, so I know there's no point in doing it again, I just think Azderaki's decisions were quite strange today, especially the second one - the sound Razzano made was barely audible.

Nicolás89
May 29th, 2012, 07:23 PM
Shouting "Come on!" or "Allez!" prematurely because you think you've hit a winner is hindrance.

Grunting in pain because you have cramp is, apparently, hindrance.

Screaming as loud as a jack-hammer to put your opponent off, however, is perfectly fine.

It seems the only instance in which Azderaki won't call hindrance is when a player is deliberately trying to hinder her opponent.

Chasing down a ball normally after that is, without a doubt, faking a cramp.

Bonfire
May 29th, 2012, 07:23 PM
I agree that especially the last hindrance call against Virginie was ridiculous. She just yelped in pain (rather quietly) as she was hitting the ball and lost a point...I don't get it. Maria, Serena, Vika and others scream so much louder almost every time they hit the ball and there not even making the noise cuz they have to. I still don't get why Eva did that:confused:

donniedarkofan
May 29th, 2012, 07:23 PM
There is a difference, and it is the timing of the "grunt". It's been pointed out to you multiple times in the thread. If you grunt while hitting the ball, its ok, if you grunt when your opponent is hitting the ball, or just about to hit the ball, its a hindrance.

Again, this.

Break My Rapture
May 29th, 2012, 07:24 PM
Did y'all see those tourney officials in the stands? They were going apeshit when Eva made that 2nd and 3rd hindrance call, and jumped in on the booing when she left the court. I'm thinking she will have to explain herself BIG TIME.

Still like her though. :hearts:

donniedarkofan
May 29th, 2012, 07:24 PM
the last call was absolutely unjustified, there can't be no argue about it.
the other were ok, but she made a completely wrong decision on a MP!

All the calls were ok. Simple as that.

Doully
May 29th, 2012, 07:25 PM
Eva (and not the WTF/ITF and their rules) being blamed for hindrance rules and grunting.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f337/Gainsy/128114950572.gif

medved
May 29th, 2012, 07:25 PM
Then she should do likewise every time Sharapova, Azarenka, Williams, Schiavone, et al yell out during play, i.e. every damn point.

agree.

donniedarkofan
May 29th, 2012, 07:26 PM
Did y'all see those tourney officials in the stands? They were going apeshit when Eva made that 2nd and 3rd hindrance call, and jumped in on the booing when she left the court. I'm thinking she will have to explain herself BIG TIME.

Still like her though. :hearts:

Yes, we've seen them. They were all French, they were booing. Big deal. French crowd, incl officials, is disgusting.

Material World
May 29th, 2012, 07:28 PM
Thought that call at 30-30 was outrageous. I look forward to Asteraki umpiring Azarenka.

Vincey!
May 29th, 2012, 07:28 PM
I know what you mean, but what if she, for example, hits a shot a stays silent, and then continues to yell with her next shot, what then? Was her unexpected silence a hindrance? Or is her every next yell a hindrance now? :lol:
This has been discussed to death, so I know there's no point in doing it again, I just think Azderaki's decisions were quite strange today, especially the second one - the sound Razzano made was barely audible.

Oh yes I know, I think if you grunt you should grunt on most balls like Sharapova and Azarenka does (shortly in her case would be better) but if you grunt in random balls like Serena does that's kinda weird. Still that's different from yelling out of pain in the middle of the point. Razzano was grunting in the end when she was hitting the ball and it was fine, but she got the hindrance when she was crying out of pain in the middle of the points. :shrug: Eva did mostly a great job today. As I said exept that last hindrance call which was barely audible. BUT all the others were perfectly right.

duhcity
May 29th, 2012, 07:28 PM
Lest you forget, cramps don't count in slam tennis. It's not like the tour, where you can get taping or a massage. Cramping is no excuse, and the hindrance was deserved. If it was that bad, the rules say to retire.

homogenius
May 29th, 2012, 07:28 PM
some dubious calls at the end (the last one was just robbery)but Virginie found a way to win so it doesn't matter at the end.

John.
May 29th, 2012, 07:32 PM
I hate grunting with a passion, for me it's one of the worst things about tennis. However, grunting occurs when the player making the noise hitting the ball. Hinderance for me is if the opponent makes a noise when you are about to hit the ball, which is what Eva was calling Razzano out on.

:lol: at the people in here complaining about it. I bet most of them were totally on Eva's side for the USO Final

Valanga
May 29th, 2012, 07:38 PM
Eva's totally right here (maybe apart from the last one because I couldn't hear anything). I cannot see a problem at all.

Jane Lane
May 29th, 2012, 07:44 PM
If you're going to criticize the way she does her job maybe you should spell her name right. :rolleyes:

jamesuk
May 29th, 2012, 07:46 PM
Perhaps some technologically minded forum member would be able to do some kind of visual and audio graphic that shows EXACTLY where the ball is at the tail end of a typical Azarenka grunt, then do the same graphic for some of Razzano's yelps....and compare.

Surely both Azarenka's and Sharapova's grunts are still audible when the ball has already crossed the net to the opponents side?
Would that not be a good way of controlling it? If the sound is made/is still being made when the ball has crossed the net ...... hindrence?

I dont mind grunting, but it did cross my mind too in this Razzano match that regular grunters get away with worse, regularly!

doooma6816
May 29th, 2012, 07:51 PM
Did you say Azarenka etc. scream while hitting the ball? no...I hear her when her opponent almost touch the ball too. And it's much louder. Virginie also was simply in big pain.

Melange
May 29th, 2012, 07:52 PM
There is a difference, and it is the timing of the "grunt". It's been pointed out to you multiple times in the thread. If you grunt while hitting the ball, its ok, if you grunt when your opponent is hitting the ball, or just about to hit the ball, its a hindrance.

There are also players whose grunt only starts half a second after hitting the ball. That has to be distracting considering the ball is over the net by the time they have stopped grunting.

toxina90
May 29th, 2012, 07:53 PM
The first two hindrance calls were absolutely correct. The third one was iffy.

agree totally. The last one just sounded like she was gasping in reaching difficulty, which as a player I've done before. It sounded quieter too. Imagine if they implement this rule for grunting :lol:

Sammo
May 29th, 2012, 08:03 PM
I love Eva but she is addicted to Hindrancine :tape: And she was totally wrong today, Razzano just screamed a bit louder than she usually did and because of that Asderaki gave the point to Serena twice, and Virginie's 'a bit louder' scream isn't 1/10 of Sharapova's regular one :tape:

Melange
May 29th, 2012, 08:04 PM
agree totally. The last one just sounded like she was gasping in reaching difficulty, which as a player I've done before. It sounded quieter too. Imagine if they implement this rule for grunting :lol:

she should have shoved a ball down virginie's throat to stop her gasping, such an obvious cheat, this is the worst case of cheating at french since..

doomsday
May 29th, 2012, 08:06 PM
The first two were OK but the second one was ridiculous.

Mary Cherry.
May 29th, 2012, 08:08 PM
Off with the ponytail!

Rest Maria!
May 29th, 2012, 08:09 PM
Azarenka's shrieks last well after the ball crossed the net. It surely should be considered hindrance, no?

Raiden
May 29th, 2012, 08:12 PM
Asderaki went bananas today. It was a disgrace.

It almost looked like as if there was no tennis match going on but a WWE-style scripted "storyline" a.k.a. match-fixing.

Adrian.
May 29th, 2012, 08:23 PM
That's why I :hearts: matches together with Eva and Rena :haha:

madmax
May 29th, 2012, 08:24 PM
Asderaki went apeshit crazy at the end of the match today - there's no question about it.
I believe she will have some serious explaining to do to tourney officials and her umpiring credentials will likely take a big hit too. I've never seen such bogus decisions in ANY men's match whatsoever and I've seen plenty of them. Yelping in pain is completely normal and understandable in long, drawn out and very physical matches. Those hindrance calls almost cost a match to Virginie too...that's just a simple case of bad incompetent umpiring

miffedmax
May 29th, 2012, 08:26 PM
Believe it or not, grunting, and hindrance are two separate rules under the Laws of Tennis and are handled differently.

I didn't see the match today, so I'm not going to comment on whether she was right or wrong this time (unlike the USO, where she was 100% correct).

However, comparing shrieks of pain (a hindrance under the laws of tennis) to grunting (covered by a different law of tennis, and only considered a hindrance under certain very specific circumstances) is pointless.

Also, the volume of the hindrance is irrelevant in determining whether a act of hindrance has taken place.

If it's audible, it's a hindrance.

C. Drone
May 29th, 2012, 08:29 PM
Asderaki was "playing" out of her mind. If she wants to be a star clearly choose the wrong career.

doomsday
May 29th, 2012, 08:31 PM
Asderaki was "playing" out of her mind. If she wants to be a star clearly choose the wrong career.

:lol::lol::lol:

Adrian.
May 29th, 2012, 08:31 PM
Believe it or not, grunting, and hindrance are two separate rules under the Laws of Tennis and are handled differently.

I didn't see the match today, so I'm not going to comment on whether she was right or wrong this time (unlike the USO, where she was 100% correct).

However, comparing shrieks of pain (a hindrance under the laws of tennis) to grunting (covered by a different law of tennis, and only considered a hindrance under certain very specific circumstances) is pointless.

Also, the volume of the hindrance is irrelevant in determining whether a act of hindrance has taken place.

If it's audible, it's a hindrance.

so Eva was once again 100% right today :) :) :)

starin
May 29th, 2012, 08:32 PM
The first two screams in the 2nd set were really loud and Asderaki let it slide. After the second scream she had a conversation with Razzano and after the third scream it was only a replay of the point. I think Asderaki was being very generous all things considered.

miffedmax
May 29th, 2012, 08:36 PM
so Eva was once again 100% right today :) :) :)

I didn't see it, and I am not sure how the rules work on a verbal, unintentional hindrance as I'm not certified to a high enough level to make that call. ;)

bandabou
May 29th, 2012, 08:36 PM
EXACTLY...specially considering how she immediately took the point from Serena at the U.S. open.

Vincey!
May 29th, 2012, 08:37 PM
Believe it or not, grunting, and hindrance are two separate rules under the Laws of Tennis and are handled differently.

However, comparing shrieks of pain (a hindrance under the laws of tennis) to grunting (covered by a different law of tennis, and only considered a hindrance under certain very specific circumstances) is pointless.

Also, the volume of the hindrance is irrelevant in determining whether a act of hindrance has taken place.

If it's audible, it's a hindrance.

This! Eva didn't say anything when Razzano first made a big shriek of pain and the commentators where like "uh oh this should have been hindrance" and now everyone goes crazy cuz Eva did her job and called out when she heard Razzano in pain in the middle of the point.

Once again how can someone compare grunts with cry of pain is beyond me. Clearly only looking for drama. Razzano was grunting in the end which didn't gave her hindrance. If Razzano's normal grunt on EVERY balls is like "hummmmm" and then she goes "hummmmm.....AAAARH" That's weird and distracting hence hindrance.

Dav.
May 29th, 2012, 08:46 PM
I haven't read through the entire thread but it seems that a lot of people are forgetting that Setena already had a code violation warning in the Stosur match, hence losing a point for the hindrance. Razzano had not previously received one so the first hindrance only counted as a warning. And, as others said, any audible hindrance is supposed to be called.

I'm nor sure why Asderaki is getting such a bad rap by trying to preserve the integrity of the game and its rules. :shrug:

bandabou
May 29th, 2012, 08:49 PM
I haven't read through the entire thread but it seems that a lot of people are forgetting that Setena already had a code violation warning in the Stosur match, hence losing a point for the hindrance. Razzano had not previously received one so the first hindrance only counted as a warning. And, as others said, any audible hindrance is supposed to be called.

I'm nor sure why Asderaki is getting such a bad rap by trying to preserve the integrity of the game and its rules. :shrug:

when she yelped in the tb that was her second audible hindrance.

Nicolás89
May 29th, 2012, 08:53 PM
EXACTLY...specially considering how she immediately took the point from Serena at the U.S. open.

She had a prior warning for raquet abuse.

Dav.
May 29th, 2012, 08:55 PM
when she yelped in the tb that was her second audible hindrance.

Point is, the penalty came following an initial code violation warning. Same in Serena's USO.

bjurra
May 29th, 2012, 08:56 PM
Grunting doesn't bother me at all, but I'm so in agreement. Every single day girls on tour grunt louder than that (yes, including my favourite before anyone wants to be a smart-arse) and nothing is done, but Razzano whimpers and it's hindrance? Both Virginie and Serena grunted louder than the whimpering in that match. Truly makes no sense!

I do feel sorry for Eva though. She's following the rules and doing her job correctly. It's just a silly rule to punish someone who is clearly trying to keep quiet but can't through pain! :lol:

She is not following the rules! Hindrance is when the opponent is hindered by an action of the player. There is no way Serena was hindered.

bjurra
May 29th, 2012, 08:58 PM
I haven't read through the entire thread but it seems that a lot of people are forgetting that Setena already had a code violation warning in the Stosur match, hence losing a point for the hindrance. Razzano had not previously received one so the first hindrance only counted as a warning. And, as others said, any audible hindrance is supposed to be called.

I'm nor sure why Asderaki is getting such a bad rap by trying to preserve the integrity of the game and its rules. :shrug:

A hinderence is not a violation and has nothing to do with prior warnings.

The only hinderence where you do not lose the point is when a ball falls out of your pocket, that is a let the first time it happens and a lost point the next time.

b2b
May 29th, 2012, 09:14 PM
interesting. how many tennis empires we have on this forum? why does so many people pretend to know the rule and call the pro a mockery?

Mistress of Evil
May 29th, 2012, 09:15 PM
Shouting "Come on!" or "Allez!" prematurely because you think you've hit a winner is hindrance.

Grunting in pain because you have cramp is, apparently, hindrance.

Screaming as loud as a jack-hammer to put your opponent off, however, is perfectly fine.

It seems the only instance in which Azderaki won't call hindrance is when a player is deliberately trying to hinder her opponent.

Then she should do likewise every time Sharapova, Azarenka, Williams, Schiavone, et al yell out during play, i.e. every damn point.

There is nothing in the rules that distinguishes between screaming every time you hit the ball and grunting in pain. If the latter is hindrance then it is utterly absurd to say that the former is not.


Of course, you will make this about grunting. You are so freaking pressed, I mean literally. This must be the 30903290 time you make this very same ridiculous argument, just let it go already.

Mary Cherry.
May 29th, 2012, 09:19 PM
I can only assume that Eva was walking down the hall and forgot to not look Serena's way.

Consequences will never be the same.

bandabou
May 29th, 2012, 09:20 PM
Point is, the penalty came following an initial code violation warning. Same in Serena's USO.

and that's why Virgenie should've gotten the warning for the first scream at 5-5 in the second set.

Charlatan
May 29th, 2012, 09:23 PM
Of course, you will make this about grunting. You are so freaking pressed, I mean literally. This must be the 30903290 time you make this very same ridiculous argument, just let it go already.

This! the OP is clearly obsessed over the grunting issues :o every time he gets a chance, he turns it into a grunting issue...

NashaMasha
May 29th, 2012, 09:25 PM
The first two hindrance calls were completely correct. The third - probably not. All-in-all she did a great job.

this was a match in which every single point, every single ball was worth a Slam for Serena and career for Razanno... Eva was wrong at least once, it is disgrace for her, because mistakes at key points are unforgivable ....

French crowd should "Booooo" and whistle on her every time she reaches the chair
She should be fired at RG , i don't want to see her unfair face at French Open and sure that real tennis fans will agree with me

Jane Lane
May 29th, 2012, 09:48 PM
Well, I finally watched it. I'm leaving my personal feelings out the window and trying to analyze this objectively. I have an umpire's certification from the USTA, from all y'all who are like well none of you know the rules.

We've grown so used to umpires being soft; they don't enforce this, they let so and so get away with time violations, on court coaching, whatever. Asderaki comes out, and shows some ovaries, applies the rule the way SHE'S BEEN INSTRUCTED, and handles it professionally, and in my view correctly. The handshake from Razzano attested to that. Keep in mind, these people go to school for years to get where they are. The ITF brass makes these rules and teaches how/when to enforce them; don't shoot the messenger because you think the rule sucks.

And finally, the FFT president booing her was the most classless thing I've seen in a while. Brian Earley came right out and said how 100% correct she was at the USO.

Dexter
May 29th, 2012, 09:50 PM
I just saw the last hindrance call in the final game and it's absolute disgrace. I dont know, but something has to be done. It was very incompetent.

C. Drone
May 29th, 2012, 09:56 PM
just imagine the shitstorm if Razzano would have lost. :oh:

pierce85
May 29th, 2012, 09:56 PM
Eva Asderaki is the best umpire there is and that is because she doesn't get intimidated by spoilt brats-players who earn millions of dollars for once in a sport. She goes by the book and that should be awarded because we all see what happens with umpires in other sports (fake penalties etc).


Some of you are such deluded fanboys who think that your favourites should be above the rules

NashaMasha
May 29th, 2012, 09:57 PM
dentine You are American and biased. WE need expert who can be impartial to prove it

Jane Lane
May 29th, 2012, 09:59 PM
dentine You are American and biased. WE need expert who can be impartial to prove it

What does me being American have to do with ANYTHING.

pierce85
May 29th, 2012, 10:03 PM
dentine You are American and biased. WE need expert who can be impartial to prove it

There's no one impartial in these forums, everyone hates players and has favourites.


It was laughable to see some posters Serena-haters who praised Eva about her call in the last US open saying that they lost respect after today's incident, just because her calls were in favour of Serena, and just so you know I dislike Serena myself

Stonerpova
May 29th, 2012, 10:08 PM
I thought she was out of line today. The noises Razzano made were no worse than grunting/shrieking

Joana
May 29th, 2012, 10:13 PM
The handshake from Razzano attested to that.

Razzano had just beaten Serena Williams and she was so ecstatic that she probably didn't even remember there was a hindrance. However, had she lost (and it was getting really iffy out there), it would have been a totally different story, and Asderaki is really fortunate the match ended the way it did.

The last hindrance was absolutely ridiculous - Azarenka and Sharapova would never be able to finish a single match if that rule was enforced.

Nicolás89
May 29th, 2012, 10:19 PM
DEAD at people not even trying to get the difference on what Razzano was doing & what Pova or Fake do, sure the demons are pure evil but please. :facepalm: And BTW no injured player runs like she did specially in the last games & suddenly starts screaming in withing points at critical moments, come the f on. :rolleyes:

Melange
May 29th, 2012, 10:22 PM
Eva Asderaki is the best umpire there is and that is because she doesn't get intimidated by spoilt brats-players who earn millions of dollars for once in a sport. She goes by the book and that should be awarded because we all see what happens with umpires in other sports (fake penalties etc).


Some of you are such deluded fanboys who think that your favourites should be above the rules

You can be the best umpire there is and still make mistakes. This rule is still up to interpretation as to how loud a noise can be until it becomes "distracting". Its clearly an accidental noise, not anything like a "Kamannn", which I think the rule is designed for.

Im in the school which believes that in big matches, officials should stay out of the way and let the sportsmen decide the result, unless its a massive thing which needs to be overruled. I would rather officials make a mistake in not intervening, than being overeager to make a ruling.

Credit to Virginie, who managed to stay under control. A different player might have walked right up to the chair and hurled some half-crazed abuse at Eva.

NashaMasha
May 29th, 2012, 10:23 PM
Razzano, with the match seemingly hers, was suddenly hobbled by cramps. She was given a second, and unfair, point penalty for an audible hindrance when she let out a brief cry of pain—even Serena shook her head at that one, and the collected members of the FFT appeared ready to jump on court to pull umpire Eva Asderaki down from her chair.

Steve Tignor

And BTW no injured player runs like she did specially in the last games & suddenly starts screaming in withing points at critical moments, come the f on
You don't know what is adrenaline, I walked through the forest 10km with foot dislocation Next day i could walk only with crutches not more than 10 meters

Joana
May 29th, 2012, 10:27 PM
DEAD at people not even trying to get the difference on what Razzano was doing & what Pova or Fake do, sure the demons are pure evil but please. :facepalm: And BTW no injured player runs like she did specially in the last games & suddenly starts screaming in withing points at critical moments, come the f on. :rolleyes:

Because what Azza and Pova do is definitely more hindering than what Razzano did on the last supposed hindrance.

I know the rules treat them as two separate things and blah, but umpires should at least occasionally use common sense.

Nicolás89
May 29th, 2012, 10:30 PM
Because what Azza and Pova do is definitely more hindering than what Razzano did on the last supposed hindrance.

I know the rules treat them as two separate things and blah, but umpires should at least occasionally use common sense.

That's why grunting during the points is considered hindrance & gruting when hitting the ball is not.

thrust
May 29th, 2012, 10:37 PM
Can't believe I used to have respect for her. :facepalm:

Great that Razzano still gave her a handshake though, much credit to her. :yeah:

For Sure, Razzano handled a bad situation very well, much better than I would have. The hinderance calls were ridiculous!

NashaMasha
May 29th, 2012, 10:38 PM
That's why grunting during the points is considered hindrance & gruting when hitting the ball is not.

the problem is that even steps on the court were louder than her grunt from pain . It was clear from Serena's eyes that she didn't want that gift from umpire. Serena is still professional and much more than Eva Azderaki

Cajka
May 29th, 2012, 10:39 PM
Because what Azza and Pova do is definitely more hindering than what Razzano did on the last supposed hindrance.

I know the rules treat them as two separate things and blah, but umpires should at least occasionally use common sense.

I believe that some of Vika's shrieks are probably louder than some "comeons" in the middle of points, but it doesn't mean that it should be allowed if they are not as loud as grunts or shrieks.

Timariot
May 29th, 2012, 10:45 PM
Thing is, lots of players, especially women, scream when they are lunging for the ball, Hingis often made quite loud shriek when she was forced to stretch...I've never seen hindrance called from one of those. OK, maybe the situation is somewhat different, Razzano yelped (not very loudly) after fairly normal groundstroke. But still...I think the rules just aren't very consistent.

Jane Lane
May 29th, 2012, 10:47 PM
Thing is, lots of players, especially women, scream when they are lunging for the ball, Hingis often made quite loud shriek when she was forced to stretch...I've never seen hindrance called from one of those. OK, maybe the situation is somewhat different, Razzano yelped (not very loudly) after fairly normal groundstroke. But still...I think the rules just aren't very consistent.

I feel like that happens while making contact. This wasn't that, ball had already clearly left her racket. If anything, these things are just exposing the rule for what it is, aka not good/clear.

Nicolás89
May 29th, 2012, 10:50 PM
the problem is that even steps on the court were louder than her grunt from pain . It was clear from Serena's eyes that she didn't want that gift from umpire. Serena is still professional and much more than Eva Azderaki

Lol You know that how?

She was clear in her post match interview she was waiting for her point after the first hindrance call & didn't even mention the other 2. :lol:

Joana
May 29th, 2012, 10:52 PM
I believe that some of Vika's shrieks are probably louder than some "comeons" in the middle of points, but it doesn't mean that it should be allowed if they are not as loud as grunts or shrieks.

What's a middle of the point? Sometimes the time between two shots is really short and often grunts/shrieks are still audible as the other player is about to hit the ball.

But that's not the point. The thing is, the last hindrance wasn't any more hindering than basically 90% of the sounds in every other match.
As I said, the umpires should sometimes rely on basic common sense.

Nicolás89
May 29th, 2012, 10:54 PM
But it's ONE grunt, not a grunt followed by silence then a shriek. Common sense.

Melange
May 29th, 2012, 10:58 PM
What if both players are at the net and one player lets out a huge shriek in the face of the other while hitting the ball at her. Still totally legal.

Dav.
May 29th, 2012, 11:03 PM
But it's ONE grunt, not a grunt followed by silence then a shriek. Common sense.

Exactly. :shrug:

NashaMasha
May 29th, 2012, 11:08 PM
just once again Steve Tignor's comment, just read it

Razzano, with the match seemingly hers, was suddenly hobbled by cramps. She was given a second, and unfair, point penalty for an audible hindrance when she let out a brief cry of pain—even Serena shook her head at that one, and the collected members of the FFT appeared ready to jump on court to pull umpire Eva Asderaki down from her chair. Razzano also had to face down Serena Williams, who began to shriek with determination halfway through the game, and who stopped missing once her back was all the way to the wall.

Cajka
May 29th, 2012, 11:11 PM
What's a middle of the point? Sometimes the time between two shots is really short and often grunts/shrieks are still audible as the other player is about to hit the ball.

This is exactly why we had so many discussions about the shrieking. That's why tennis fans and journalists suggest that WTA should find the way to deal with it.


But that's not the point. The thing is, the last hindrance wasn't any more hindering than basically 90% of the sounds in every other match.
As I said, the umpires should sometimes rely on basic common sense.

Miffedmax explained the rule. It's not important if it's barely audible or a loud shriek during the point. I know that it doesn't seem right, but if they use the common sense, it would be a mess, because it's hard to set the limits to what is hindering and what not. The umpires would be accused of being biased in almost every match.

toxina90
May 29th, 2012, 11:20 PM
she should have shoved a ball down virginie's throat to stop her gasping, such an obvious cheat, this is the worst case of cheating at french since..

Let's not go there :oh:

toxina90
May 29th, 2012, 11:22 PM
Because what Azza and Pova do is definitely more hindering than what Razzano did on the last supposed hindrance.

I know the rules treat them as two separate things and blah, but umpires should at least occasionally use common sense.

In an organisation which still allows on-court coaching cheating that would be asking too much :p

Raiden
May 29th, 2012, 11:25 PM
Razzano was grunting in the end which didn't gave her hindrance. If Razzano's normal grunt on EVERY balls is like "hummmmm" and then she goes "hummmmm.....AAAARH" That's weird and distracting hence hindrance.That's exactly what Asderaki did and that's why she's completely in the wrong.

Legalizing grunting arbitrarily is bad enough - but it becomes worse when an umpire makes a mockery of the rules and dishes out a code-violation based ONLY on the "way of sounding" or modular/tonal/pitch structure of the grunt that was made.

Asderaki's job is tennis, not acoustics management.

Joana
May 29th, 2012, 11:28 PM
Miffedmax explained the rule. It's not important if it's barely audible or a loud shriek during the point. I know that it doesn't seem right, but if they use the common sense, it would be a mess, because it's hard to set the limits to what is hindering and what not. The umpires would be accused of being biased in almost every match.

Would anyone have complained if Asderaki hadn't called hindrance in that last situation? Would anyone have even noticed it?

It wasn't Kirilenko banging her racquet against the court. It was a sound that occurs in most every match.

NoChokes
May 29th, 2012, 11:38 PM
I think the major problem with this is that people get away with making horrendous noise on the court, and someone is getting penalised (rightly or wrongly, but it seems perhaps rightly) for a few little, and seemingly undeliberate, yelps.

People who are complaining about grunting being brought up and suggesting that it's unrelated are wrong. The whole reason why this is an issue is because of the super loud grunters. If nobody made a crazy loud noise when hitting the ball, I would imagine these calls would have been taken without a major problem.

It's only because certain players get away with what is essentially a deliberate hinderance almost every shot, but the fact that it happens as they're hitting the ball somehow makes it not a hinderance. (according to the rules.)

Cajka
May 29th, 2012, 11:44 PM
Would anyone have complained if Asderaki hadn't called hindrance in that last situation? Would anyone have even noticed it?

It wasn't Kirilenko banging her racquet against the court. It was a sound that occurs in most every match.

I don't know if someone would complain, I just know that the volume of sound is irrelevant according to rules and I understand it, although it doesn't seem to be fair in every situation. Players can always say that it distracted them more than it actually did, that's why the rule includes all the noises, regardless of volume. It's simple: you can grunt, but after you finish it, be silent.

I see why it might be confusing and some people probably think that it was cruel considering that Virginie was in pain, it was unintentional. But you can lose the point if your sun visor falls off. :shrug: It doesn't seem fair neither.

cowsonice
May 29th, 2012, 11:46 PM
I think a lot of posters are irked by the fact that Asderaki enforced the hindrance rule on Razzano when the rule should have been enforced (with the same principle) against the more consistent "grunters" such as Azarenka and Sharapova.

Asderaki is one of the few umpires I've seen on tour who has got the balls/ovaries to enforce such rules (Cicak being second), and people should realize that not every umpire is like Asderaki.

It's the same thing as the situation where you, who rarely defies the rules of the road, gets a ticket for barely running a red light, while your friend, who consistently breaks the traffic rules, hardly ever gets caught. Rules are rules and somebody has to enforce them.

As for FFT booing, :rolls:
Their organization is in the shit anyway. Asderaki is employed through the ITF, and she's one of the most respected umpires on tour--it's not like she's going away. You don't want another shortage of umpires and let another Mariana Alves sit in that chair :oh:

Jane Lane
May 29th, 2012, 11:47 PM
I think a lot of posters are irked by the fact that Asderaki enforced the hindrance rule on Razzano when the rule should have been enforced (with the same principle) against the more consistent "grunters" such as Azarenka and Sharapova.

Asderaki is one of the few umpires I've seen on tour who has got the balls/ovaries to enforce such rules (Cicak being second), and people should realize that not umpire is like Asderaki.

It's the same thing as the situation where you, who rarely defies the rules of the road, gets a ticket for barely running a red light, while your friend, who consistently breaks the traffic rules, hardly ever gets caught. Rules are rules and somebody has to enforce them.

:yeah:

PhilePhile
May 29th, 2012, 11:47 PM
It is what is it ... hindrance ( @ 0:28 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ifzFVHrMyt4#t=28s) ).

ifzFVHrMyt4

NoChokes
May 29th, 2012, 11:51 PM
The problem is that the vast majority of people who watch tennis at grand slams (both live and on TV) are not hardcore fans. It looks stupid for Virginie to be penalised for this when other players shriek and roar like animals and that's all part of the game.

Even if it's following the letter of the law, it just looks bad.

Matt01
May 29th, 2012, 11:54 PM
Eva Asderaki proving once again why she currently is the best umpire on the tour :yeah: (and I'm saying that even though I wanted Serena to lose :tape:)

Hope we also see her in the final :D

pierce85
May 29th, 2012, 11:58 PM
Eva Asderaki proving once again why she currently is the best umpire on the tour (and I'm saying that even though I wanted Serena to lose :tape:) :yeah:

Hope we also see her in the final :D


Exactly, there's not a right or wrong time in sports to call a foul,hindrance,penalty. These are the rules and they were meant to be followed, spare me the crucial moment of the match crap. I don't care if it was matchpoint, a violation is a violation

Sharapowerr
May 30th, 2012, 12:03 AM
Kissing' Serena's ass, Eva come on i liked you

Pops Maellard
May 30th, 2012, 12:13 AM
Shouting "Come on!" or "Allez!" prematurely because you think you've hit a winner is hindrance.

Grunting in pain because you have cramp is, apparently, hindrance.

Screaming as loud as a jack-hammer to put your opponent off, however, is perfectly fine.

It seems the only instance in which Azderaki won't call hindrance is when a player is deliberately trying to hinder her opponent.

Not only that but a mockery is made of the time rule everytime Nadal plays, including by Eva :devil:.

PetraReeMona
May 30th, 2012, 12:45 AM
The first two hindrance calls were absolutely correct. The third one was iffy.

Yeah, even Serena shook her head in disbelief.

fouc
May 30th, 2012, 12:50 AM
It is what is it ... hindrance ( @ 0:28 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ifzFVHrMyt4#t=28s) ).

ifzFVHrMyt4

even serena thought this was unjustified.

NashaMasha
May 30th, 2012, 12:56 AM
Asderaki is employed through the ITF, and she's one of the most respected umpires on tour--it's not like she's going away.

just wait till french newpapers will publish "nice" articles about Azaderaki ..... She will have to use ear plugs in order not to hear "BOoooooooooo" every time she enters the court It was a disgrace.....

even serena thought this was unjustified
exactly

PS To my mind, Eva was under pressure , after previous incident she tried not to offend Serena in any way. Moreover we all know , that withdrawal of the main favorite will serously decline TV audience especially in USA and it's a matter of money .....

cowsonice
May 30th, 2012, 12:59 AM
just wait till french newpapers will publish "nice" articles about Azaderaki ..... She will have to use ear plugs in order not to hear "BOoooooooooo" every time she enters the court It was a disgrace.....


French Open is not the only Grand Slam :wavey:
It's not the only time Eva has been boo-ed. She's got the balls to stand by her rulings.

(Plus she looks a lot like the other umpires...Alves, Engzell.)

NashaMasha
May 30th, 2012, 01:12 AM
French Open is not the only Grand Slam :wavey:
It's not the only time Eva has been boo-ed. She's got the balls to stand by her rulings.

(Plus she looks a lot like the other umpires...Alves, Engzell.)

but i am still sure Kader Nouni will be umpire in the Final .....He also had some mistakes in the past, but he is impartial and really highly respected by players

Azderaki will be booooooed every single match at RG , French crowd is vindictive

If i were there I would whistle every time her name is announced. Because her wrong decision may have turned winner to a loser in one second .... just one her stupid decision

In The Zone
May 30th, 2012, 01:16 AM
The problem is that the vast majority of people who watch tennis at grand slams (both live and on TV) are not hardcore fans. It looks stupid for Virginie to be penalised for this when other players shriek and roar like animals and that's all part of the game.

Even if it's following the letter of the law, it just looks bad.

Virginie's welps were during Serena's striking of the ball and long after Virginie's strike of the ball (grunt).

Comparing her welps to Sharapova's and Azarena's grunt is apples and oranges. They shriek when they hit the ball and then stop. Razzano grunted and then moaned in pain long after her stroke was finished.

If anything, it's comparable to Kirilenko slamming her racquet on to the ground during Sharapova setting up for a groundstroke. It's the same thing.

Eva was correct - even if she had no mercy.

Jane Lane
May 30th, 2012, 01:20 AM
Virginie's welps were during Serena's striking of the ball and long after Virginie's strike of the ball (grunt).

Comparing her welps to Sharapova's and Azarena's grunt is apples and oranges. They shriek when they hit the ball and then stop. Razzano grunted and then moaned in pain long after her stroke was finished.

If anything, it's comparable to Kirilenko slamming her racquet on to the ground during Sharapova setting up for a groundstroke. It's the same thing.

Eva was correct - even if she had no mercy.

:yeah:

Cosmic Voices
May 30th, 2012, 01:21 AM
but i am still sure Kader Nouni will be umpire in the Final .....He also had some mistakes in the past, but he is impartial and really highly respected by players

Azderaki will be booooooed every single match at RG , French crowd is vindictive

If i were there I would whistle every time her name is announced. Because her wrong decision may have turned winner to a loser in one second .... just one her stupid decision

not by caro he's not :oh:

NashaMasha
May 30th, 2012, 01:24 AM
If anything, it's comparable to Kirilenko slamming her racquet on to the ground during Sharapova setting up for a groundstroke. It's the same thing.



do you know the word "deliberately? "

http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/ITF%20-%20RoT%202010.pdf
26. HINDRANCE
If a player is hindered in playing the point by a deliberate act of the opponent(s), the
player shall win the point.
However, the point shall be replayed if a player is hindered in playing the point by
either an unintentional act of the opponent(s), or something outside the player’s own
control (not including a permanent fixture).

hingisGOAT
May 30th, 2012, 01:29 AM
Guys. GUYS. GUYS! RELAX.

Everyone needs to stop and BREATHE. And do us a favor; if you cannot comprehend the difference between a typical, methodical grunt vs. a totally random out-burst, then stop posting in this thread.

Volume doesn't matter for a hindrance call. If it only had to be "loud," some players would probably be muttering words like "bitch" or "heffer" under their breath every damn point. :tape:

It is very easy to apply common sense to this rule! Razzano was at fault, she needed to keep her mouth shut and deserved to lose every point that Asderaki docked her. I say this as someone who is pretty pleased with the result, so :shrug:

And btw if the French Tennis Federation President really booed Asderaki in a grotesque sign of nationalism, as opposed to wanting to uphold the integrity of the rules and the sport, that is one of the saddest things I've EVER heard and further evidence that the French crowd is the worst in the sport. :tape:

hingisGOAT
May 30th, 2012, 01:31 AM
BTW Eva did an awesome job umpiring, the only fault I noticed was she didn't call hindrance on Razzano the first time she randomly yelled out.

manu32
May 30th, 2012, 01:33 AM
BTW Eva did an awesome job umpiring, the only fault I noticed was she didn't call hindrance on Razzano the first time she randomly yelled out.
tHat's the problem and .Asderaki booed as she leaves the court.....

Nicolás89
May 30th, 2012, 02:03 AM
Yeah, even Serena shook her head in disbelief.

That's your interpretation. I think she was rolling her eyes & shaking her head at the crowd.

cowsonice
May 30th, 2012, 02:06 AM
but i am still sure Kader Nouni will be umpire in the Final .....He also had some mistakes in the past, but he is impartial and really highly respected by players

Azderaki will be booooooed every single match at RG , French crowd is vindictive

If i were there I would whistle every time her name is announced. Because her wrong decision may have turned winner to a loser in one second .... just one her stupid decision

Serena was awarded the point and thus reached break point.

An umpire's decision shouldn't reflect the outcome of the match. Players must play through the point, making the best out of the circumstances (even beyond an umpire ruling--weather, the crowd, etc) That's what a lot of tennis is about.

Kader Nouni...impartial and highly respected? :spit:
555MZkZoqLU

Jane Lane
May 30th, 2012, 02:19 AM
do you know the word "deliberately? "

http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/ITF%20-%20RoT%202010.pdf

:facepalm: That's why the point was replayed on the first one, because it was the exact moment the pain/injury/whatever occurred. Out of her control.

Asderaki asked her if she needed the trainer, she said no, warned her if it happened again it'd be a point penalty. Happened twice, boom.

There is literally nothing here outside the letter of the rules.

thrust
May 30th, 2012, 02:36 AM
Guys. GUYS. GUYS! RELAX.

Everyone needs to stop and BREATHE. And do us a favor; if you cannot comprehend the difference between a typical, methodical grunt vs. a totally random out-burst, then stop posting in this thread.

Volume doesn't matter for a hindrance call. If it only had to be "loud," some players would probably be muttering words like "bitch" or "heffer" under their breath every damn point. :tape:

It is very easy to apply common sense to this rule! Razzano was at fault, she needed to keep her mouth shut and deserved to lose every point that Asderaki docked her. I say this as someone who is pretty pleased with the result, so :shrug:

And btw if the French Tennis Federation President really booed Asderaki in a grotesque sign of nationalism, as opposed to wanting to uphold the integrity of the rules and the sport, that is one of the saddest things I've EVER heard and further evidence that the French crowd is the worst in the sport. :tape:

As I recall, Serena fans and the NY crowd didn't care much for Eva's call against Serena at the USO. She seems to be the only umpire who takes this silly rule so seriously. The good news today, is that the match wasn't stolen by a fanatic official.

Jane Lane
May 30th, 2012, 02:40 AM
As I recall, Serena fans and the NY crowd didn't care much for Eva's call against Serena at the USO. She seems to be the only umpire who takes this silly rule so seriously. The good news today, is that the match wasn't stolen by a fanatic official.

Ask the guy who called it on Fish in IW or Miami. Or the other woman who called it on Bartoli at USO '11.

Natash.
May 30th, 2012, 02:41 AM
dentine You are American and biased. WE need expert who can be impartial to prove it

OMG :lol: What the hell. :help:

Danii's Law
May 30th, 2012, 02:47 AM
Can someone tell me when they were? Like what game and what set? Just a vague idea, The replay is about to start and I want to judge for myself.

Thanks in advance.

Nicolás89
May 30th, 2012, 02:49 AM
Can someone tell me when they were? Like what game and what set? Just a vague idea, The replay is about to start and I want to judge for myself.

Thanks in advance.

Second set tiebreak & throughout the third set, 1 in the last game.

miffedmax
May 30th, 2012, 02:50 AM
:facepalm: That's why the point was replayed on the first one, because it was the exact moment the pain/injury/whatever occurred. Out of her control.

Asderaki asked her if she needed the trainer, she said no, warned her if it happened again it'd be a point penalty. Happened twice, boom.

There is literally nothing here outside the letter of the rules.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120116031720/glee/images/9/9b/Rachel_fainting.gif


Someone can read a rulebook.

Danii's Law
May 30th, 2012, 03:16 AM
Second set tiebreak & throughout the third set, 1 in the last game.

Thanks:)

Vincey!
May 30th, 2012, 04:49 AM
but i am still sure Kader Nouni will be umpire in the Final .....He also had some mistakes in the past, but he is impartial and really highly respected by players

Azderaki will be booooooed every single match at RG , French crowd is vindictive

If i were there I would whistle every time her name is announced. Because her wrong decision may have turned winner to a loser in one second .... just one her stupid decision
She made ONE bad arguable call, ONE ball, ONE point. If ONE point make you lose a match that included over 100 points then you didn't deserve to win.

do you know the word "deliberately? "

http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/ITF%20-%20RoT%202010.pdf
Yes if it's unintentional you get a warning and they replay the point, which they did for the 1st one. That even tho Eva hadn't done anything the first time Razzano yelled. If a player drops a ball during the point or that they lose their hat, they replay the point for the 1st time and if it happens again they'll lose the point. Those are not intentional either but nobody complains about it when that happen and that only bother the player who's actually losing that ball/hat.

bobito
May 30th, 2012, 05:47 AM
Believe it or not, grunting, and hindrance are two separate rules under the Laws of Tennis and are handled differently.

I am curious. Which rule is interpreted to mean that a player may scream loudly when hitting the ball? The hindrance rule would seem to apply but you say grunting/screaming is covered by another rule. Which one?

Having watched the video again, Razzano slips as she plays the ball and gasps as he does so. That is all. All of this takes place before the ball crosses the net. This was a truly terrible decision.

égalité
May 30th, 2012, 05:50 AM
Stop trying to make hindrance happen.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4r343Yn2M1rq6jsr.gif

Whitehead's Boy
May 30th, 2012, 06:04 AM
Having watched the video again, Razzano slips as she plays the ball and gasps as he does so. That is all. All of this takes place before the ball crosses the net. This was a truly terrible decision.

This.

Seriously, some of you = :sobbing:

Players slipping and gasping happen all the time, it's part of the game and it's not hindrance. I can't even start to think how many points the Sanchez-Vicario and Seles of the world would have lost back then.

What happened is that the umpire clearly didn't want La Razz to get away with making random noises as she did previously in the match, and became "out of control" in her judgement of what is hindrance.

In all fairness though, it's the kind of situation where it's very easy to make an error.

Melange
May 30th, 2012, 06:33 AM
I am curious. Which rule is interpreted to mean that a player may scream loudly when hitting the ball? The hindrance rule would seem to apply but you say grunting/screaming is covered by another rule. Which one?

Having watched the video again, Razzano slips as she plays the ball and gasps as he does so. That is all. All of this takes place before the ball crosses the net. This was a truly terrible decision.

The best umpires will apply this consistently, so expect to see players getting called every single time they slip and gasp as they play the ball, particularly at the end of a three hour match when players are tired and starting to cramp. Got to be consistent whether its on the first point or the last point, and remember, its not the volume that matters.

As for the players who grunt after hitting the ball, they should be banned because its unnatural.

GoofyDuck
May 30th, 2012, 06:38 AM
Asderaki was right!

Razzano was squeeking like a pig, if youre cramping retire or shut up.

CrossCourt~Rally
May 30th, 2012, 06:46 AM
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120116031720/glee/images/9/9b/Rachel_fainting.gif


Someone can read a rulebook.

:happy:

Melange
May 30th, 2012, 07:01 AM
[IMainting.gif[/IMG]


Someone can read a rulebook.

If you are an experienced umpire, you will know that its one thing to read a rulebook and its another thing to know how to apply it in game situations. Let me just ask you why is it that referees are very hesitant to send players off in a World Cup Final?

Navratil
May 30th, 2012, 07:01 AM
She did give 2 or three points to Serena because she yelped during play. Maybe she tried to give a leeway but at the end she had to do it.

Very very weird descision. Never seen anything like that before.

LoveAll
May 30th, 2012, 07:22 AM
I think the problem here is people not applying common sense, Eva used the rule incorrectly before the serena incident with Serena vs Kuzzy somewhere but even though she was most definitely wrong that time both players laughed and the game was not interrupted or spoiled and she made no headlines. That's the difference between when Eva was a deserved gold badge as opposed to now where everyone thinks that it's fine to hide behind a rule book. She is mostly right but she was a better umpire before with mistakes that were applied with common sense.

Raiden
May 30th, 2012, 07:32 AM
^ Good point.
You can't one day let Kuzzy offer a charity-point in the name of common-sense - and then on another day throw away common-sense and become a nitpick "judicial activist" and only apply your own literal interpretation the rulebook







.

Smith Saybrook
May 30th, 2012, 07:35 AM
You can evolve and learn from mistakes, and as long as your evolving with the rule book in hand I think it's perfectly fine to make a mistake one day and then correct it or change in the future. There's no need to be consistent when the climate and interpretations change or become more clear.

Rest Maria!
May 30th, 2012, 07:36 AM
:facepalm: That's why the point was replayed on the first one, because it was the exact moment the pain/injury/whatever occurred. Out of her control.

Asderaki asked her if she needed the trainer, she said no, warned her if it happened again it'd be a point penalty. Happened twice, boom.

There is literally nothing here outside the letter of the rules.

Calling the trainer would make her lose two games and instead of serving for the match, she would be serving to stay in it. No wonder she decided not to call him/her. There were all sorts of noises coming from the crowd all the time and somehow Razzano's yelps were an ultradistraction for Serena?

Meanwhile Vuvurenka makes all the wild noises she wishes to do and goes unpunished in every. single. point.

pancake
May 30th, 2012, 08:23 AM
Calling the trainer would make her lose two games and instead of serving for the match, she would be serving to stay in it. No wonder she decided not to call him/her. There were all sorts of noises coming from the crowd all the time and somehow Razzano's yelps were an ultradistraction for Serena?

Meanwhile Vuvurenka makes all the wild noises she wishes to do and goes unpunished in every. single. point.

Noises from the crowd cannot be compared with yelps from your opponents imo.

metamorpha
May 30th, 2012, 08:27 AM
Eva "Hindrance" Asderaki :lol:

She's so strict sometimes, but those calls can be justified.

ivanban
May 30th, 2012, 08:35 AM
Asderaki only wanted to redeem herself in Serena's eyes by making few favourable decisions. Such BFFs :hug:

C. Drone
May 30th, 2012, 08:42 AM
is she back in Greece already?

Adrian.
May 30th, 2012, 08:47 AM
is she back in Greece already?

Hopefully she will umpire Maria's next match :angel:

Then you can ask the same question again, just replace Greece with Russia :oh::bigwave:

C. Drone
May 30th, 2012, 08:53 AM
Hopefully she will umpire Maria's next match :angel:

Then you can ask the same question again, just replace Greece with Russia :oh::bigwave:

yes, Maria would deport her to Siberia, i have no doubts. ;)

Tenis Srbija
May 30th, 2012, 08:53 AM
She was just trying to help :shrug:
http://x.vukajlija.com/var/uploads/reactions/201205/5291/they-see-us-rolling.gif?1338300562

stromatolite
May 30th, 2012, 10:50 AM
I think people are letting their emotions get the better of themselves here. Eva didn't do anything wrong. You could perhaps argue that the last call was maybe too harsh, but otherwise I don't think she had any option but to apply the rule as she did.

The rule states that in the case of non-deliberate hindrance, on the first occurrence the point will be replayed and the player will get a warning. After that the rule states clearly that the hindrance will be treated as deliberate and the point will be awarded to the opponent. With the possible exception of the last occurrence, the noise Virginie made was loud enough to distract Serena. What were Eva's options? The rule doesn't allow for repeated warnings, so she couldn't do that. That leaves two possibilities: ignore the noise altogether and allow play to continue or award the point to Serena. The first option would be unfair to Serena. The second option, the one she chose, was unfortunate for Virginie, but given the fact that she was the source of the noise it was not unfair.

Obviously the rule was not designed with situations like this in mind, and there is a good case that could be made for revising the rule. But until that happens we should be happy that we have umpires who are level-headed enough to apply the rules correctly even when even she probably sympathised with Viriginie's plight. We don't need waffly softies as umpires believe me, that's a recipe for disaster.

And oh yeah: can we leave grunting out of this discussion for a change? We all know what everybody thinks about that issue, I don't see the point of dragging it all out again here on a thread that really has little or nothing to do with it.

Queenpova
May 30th, 2012, 10:52 AM
Hopefully she will umpire Maria's next match :angel:

Then you can ask the same question again, just replace Greece with Russia :oh::bigwave:

But Maria doesnt live in Russia so this makes no sense

Joana
May 30th, 2012, 11:12 AM
That leaves two possibilities: ignore the noise altogether and allow play to continue

Which is exactly what she should have done because it wasn't a hindrance, it was a situation that frequently occurs, especially in longer matches with high physical effort.
Asderaki was clearly too trigger-happy and it's not good umpiring. If you're really bent on calling a hindrance, you can easily do it in every single match, multiple times. Now that would be a mess.

JAS_
May 30th, 2012, 11:17 AM
I only saw the last hindrance and boy that was ridiculous. I didn't even hear anything...was wondering why the hell she stopped the point. I think that Eva must've been under lot of criticism for calling hindrance in the USO final, and probably accused it was only to hinder Serena, so now she felt she had to prove that she isn't biased against her.
Bull. :bs:
Just do what is right and don't try to justify your calls in one match by being out of line in another. :rolleyes:

StoneRose
May 30th, 2012, 11:26 AM
I think people are letting their emotions get the better of themselves here. Eva didn't do anything wrong. You could perhaps argue that the last call was maybe too harsh, but otherwise I don't think she had any option but to apply the rule as she did.

The rule states that in the case of non-deliberate hindrance, on the first occurrence the point will be replayed and the player will get a warning. After that the rule states clearly that the hindrance will be treated as deliberate and the point will be awarded to the opponent. With the possible exception of the last occurrence, the noise Virginie made was loud enough to distract Serena. What were Eva's options? The rule doesn't allow for repeated warnings, so she couldn't do that. That leaves two possibilities: ignore the noise altogether and allow play to continue or award the point to Serena. The first option would be unfair to Serena. The second option, the one she chose, was unfortunate for Virginie, but given the fact that she was the source of the noise it was not unfair.

Obviously the rule was not designed with situations like this in mind, and there is a good case that could be made for revising the rule. But until that happens we should be happy that we have umpires who are level-headed enough to apply the rules correctly even when even she probably sympathised with Viriginie's plight. We don't need waffly softies as umpires believe me, that's a recipe for disaster.

And oh yeah: can we leave grunting out of this discussion for a change? We all know what everybody thinks about that issue, I don't see the point of dragging it all out again here on a thread that really has little or nothing to do with it.This. It was very unfortunate that things had to play out this way and maybe the rules need to be changed (don't know how though). But that's not up to Eva, she just has to ensure that the match is played according to the rules and that's what she did. It's necessary too or we'll have non stop screaming during every point.

Kəv.
May 30th, 2012, 11:29 AM
She was just trying to help :shrug:
http://x.vukajlija.com/var/uploads/reactions/201205/5291/they-see-us-rolling.gif?1338300562

Is that you driving past JJ & her mom when their car ran out of petrol :oh:

stromatolite
May 30th, 2012, 11:44 AM
Which is exactly what she should have done because it wasn't a hindrance, it was a situation that frequently occurs, especially in longer matches with high physical effort.
Asderaki was clearly too trigger-happy and it's not good umpiring. If you're really bent on calling a hindrance, you can easily do it in every single match, multiple times. Now that would be a mess.

No, with the exception of the very last time, when the sound was quite muffled, the noise Virginie made was sharp and loud, and came at the moment when Serena was preparing to play her shot. This is different from a loudish exhalation due to exertion, which as you suggested happens a lot, but is not as loud as Virginie's cries were, and usually occur at the moment the player hits the ball (like grunting, which, as much as I hate the phenomenon, makes it problematic to apply the hindrance rule to that), rather than at the moment the opponent is preparing to play their shot. It really is a different situation, and Eva called this correctly.

Matt01
May 30th, 2012, 11:45 AM
I only saw the last hindrance and boy that was ridiculous. I didn't even hear anything...was wondering why the hell she stopped the point.


And because you couldn't hear anything on your TV screen doesn't mean it wasn't hearable on the court? :bs:


Which is exactly what she should have done because it wasn't a hindrance, it was a situation that frequently occurs, especially in longer matches with high physical effort.


:bs: Shouting out in a sound like Razzano did it several times during points doesn't occur frequently. It rarely occurs and clearly falls under the hindrance rule.

Joana
May 30th, 2012, 11:48 AM
No, with the exception of the very last time, when the sound was quite muffled

I'm only talking about the last situation.

Melange
May 30th, 2012, 11:52 AM
Has there been a word on what Virginie said about the umpiring. Cant find any reports about her press conference.

stromatolite
May 30th, 2012, 11:55 AM
I'm only talking about the last situation.

I think it's hard to isolate the last call from the rest. When you've issued a warning as an umpire you are especially alert to repeat occurrences. It may be that she could have let that one go, but the call has to be made in a split second, so it's a more or less instantaneous judgment call. Maybe it was wrong, maybe not: as others have pointed out, it's hard to guage from the tv coverage how loud the noise actually was. Anyone who has watched matches live knows that sounds are much sharper and crisper when heard live than they sound on tv.

JAS_
May 30th, 2012, 11:55 AM
And because you couldn't hear anything on your TV screen doesn't mean it wasn't hearable on the court?

From what I can see I am not the only one who claims the third hindrance was problematic. And actually since I CAN hear a lot of shrieking that isn't called hindrance and is ten times louder than this (also on TV) I think I am allowed to make comparisons. :wavey:

Melange
May 30th, 2012, 11:59 AM
I think it's hard to isolate the last call from the rest. When you've issued a warning as an umpire you are especially alert to repeat occurrences. It may be that she could have let that one go, but the call has to be made in a split second, so it's a more or less instantaneous judgment call. Maybe it was wrong, maybe not: as others have pointed out, it's hard to guage from the tv coverage how loud the noise actually was. Anyone who has watched matches live knows that sounds are much sharper and crisper when heard live than they sound on tv.

:lol: if anything, its the opposite because you are further from the player than the oncourt microphone is. i can actually tolerate sharapova's screams when its live

stromatolite
May 30th, 2012, 12:01 PM
:lol: if anything, its the opposite because you are further from the player than the oncourt microphone is

And they modulate the online mikes to ensure that what you hear in your living room is a perfect reproduction of the sounds actually taking place on court? Interesting. In any case, what we hear is not the point, it's what the opponent hears. The umpire is far better placed to judge that than anybody sitting on the sideline, whether that be at home of in the stands.

JAS_
May 30th, 2012, 12:02 PM
I think it's hard to isolate the last call from the rest. When you've issued a warning as an umpire you are especially alert to repeat occurrences. It may be that she could have let that one go, but the call has to be made in a split second, so it's a more or less instantaneous judgment call. Maybe it was wrong, maybe not: as others have pointed out, it's hard to guage from the tv coverage how loud the noise actually was. Anyone who has watched matches live knows that sounds are much sharper and crisper when heard live than they sound on tv.

Yeah, but if you are going to appeal to the rulebook and choose to be sticky about it, then you need to be level and treat each "offence" equally. So, the question is: would the third "hindrance" be called a hindrance if there wasn't for the first two?

StoneRose
May 30th, 2012, 12:03 PM
From what I can see I am not the only one who claims the third hindrance was problematic. And actually since I CAN hear a lot of shrieking that isn't called hindrance and is ten times louder than this (also on TV) I think I am allowed to make comparisons. :wavey:It's a fine line and i can see the problem with calling that third hindrance. These are tricky decisions. It's probably ok to be consequent in your rulings harsh as they may seem. Annoying as they may be to some, gruntings and shriekings at the moment of hitting the ball are allowed atm so they're outside the scope of this discussion.

Matt01
May 30th, 2012, 12:13 PM
From what I can see I am not the only one who claims the third hindrance was problematic. And actually since I CAN hear a lot of shrieking that isn't called hindrance and is ten times louder than this (also on TV) I think I am allowed to make comparisons. :wavey:


Of course you are allowed to make comaprison. I'm just saying that since Eva sat directly on the court (unlike us) and she also knows the rulebook (probabaly better than any of us) that her decision and opinions on this topic are much more valid and that she was much more qualified and in a better position to decide. :)

stromatolite
May 30th, 2012, 12:17 PM
Yeah, but if you are going to appeal to the rulebook and choose to be sticky about it, then you need to be level and treat each "offence" equally. So, the question is: would the third "hindrance" be called a hindrance if there wasn't for the first two?

You can't treat any offense independently of earlier occurrences of the same offense in the same match. As an isolated incident Eva would probably have ignored that more muffled cry. In fact, Eva did ignore the very first cry Virginie made, which was actually very loud. Nobody was expecting it, and I guess by the time it occurred to her to intervene the point was already a shot or two further, so she let it go. But when you've already issued a warning and the noises are repeated, it's correct to be less lenient than you would be the first time it occurred.

Like I said in my first post, people are letting their emotions get in the way of their judgment here. It's unfortunate that this all happened, but the rules were applied correctly. If the hindrance was obviously deliberate, like a player yelling "miss it" at the moment the opponent tried to hit the ball, nodody would have any problem at all if the umpire awarded the point to the opponent when, on a later point, the player said the same thing less loudly, but still clearly audible to the opponent. Virginie is unlucky that the rules don't allow for the specific situation she was in, but they were applied correctly nonetheless.

Melange
May 30th, 2012, 12:19 PM
When people start saying things like It's a fine line and These are tricky decisions, then its obvious that not enough discretion is being shown in making these rulings. Im sure this rule was intended for obvious cases, not accidental noises where you have to think about whether it was loud enough or not. Either it is or it isnt, this is not a rule for 50-50 calls. Maybe introduce technology which can measure whether a noise was loud enough to be hindrance or not.

StoneRose
May 30th, 2012, 12:24 PM
When people start saying things like It's a fine line and These are tricky decisions, then its obvious that not enough discretion is being shown in making these rulings. Im sure this rule was intended for obvious cases, not accidental noises where you have to think about whether it was loud enough or not. Maybe introduce technology which can measure whether a noise was loud enough to be hindrance or not.Yep.I'm all for introducing technology to help dealing with these sort of decisions if only to ensure objectivity.

stromatolite
May 30th, 2012, 12:29 PM
When people start saying things like It's a fine line and These are tricky decisions, then its obvious that not enough discretion is being shown in making these rulings. Im sure this rule was intended for obvious cases, not accidental noises where you have to think about whether it was loud enough or not. Either it is or it isnt, this is not a rule for 50-50 calls. Maybe introduce technology which can measure whether a noise was loud enough to be hindrance or not.

Actually, when people like us on the sideline say things like that I don't think it says much at all. We're not paid to adjudicate these things. But if umpires start to waffle and say "yeah, well, you know, I could have gone either way on this", then I think it'd be time for that umpire to consider another line of work. Eva is being criticized here for being decisive, not waffly.

thrust
May 30th, 2012, 12:41 PM
Well, perhaps I was missing something, but I had been watching tennis for over 50 years and never heard a hinderance call. The first time, probably with Eva calling it, was in Miami in a match between Justine and Caroline W. Justine hit an obvious winning volley and yelled allez before the ball got by Caroline. Everyone except Eva, seemed very surprised by the call. Then there was the silly call against Serena, again by Eva, at the USO. Now yesterday, again by Eva, which was totally ridiculous. This woman, it seems to me, is looking for attention. Also, the rule needs to be changed.

jrm
May 30th, 2012, 12:51 PM
she is just following the rules, can't no one get that :o

and it becomes a problem only if oposing player complains first

bobito
May 30th, 2012, 12:56 PM
You can't treat any offense independently of earlier occurrences of the same offense in the same match. As an isolated incident Eva would probably have ignored that more muffled cry. In fact, Eva did ignore the very first cry Virginie made, which was actually very loud. Nobody was expecting it, and I guess by the time it occurred to her to intervene the point was already a shot or two further, so she let it go. But when you've already issued a warning and the noises are repeated, it's correct to be less lenient than you would be the first time it occurred.

Like I said in my first post, people are letting their emotions get in the way of their judgment here. It's unfortunate that this all happened, but the rules were applied correctly. If the hindrance was obviously deliberate, like a player yelling "miss it" at the moment the opponent tried to hit the ball, nodody would have any problem at all if the umpire awarded the point to the opponent when, on a later point, the player said the same thing less loudly, but still clearly audible to the opponent. Virginie is unlucky that the rules don't allow for the specific situation she was in, but they were applied correctly nonetheless.

I'm sorry but that last call was overzealous, to put it mildly. Watch the footage again. It amounted to a gasp as she slipped tagged onto the end of her regular grunt, which itself does not appear to be terribly loud, and was before the ball crossed the net. It was "Aaagh-ah" instead of "Aaagh".

And oh yeah: can we leave grunting out of this discussion for a change? We all know what everybody thinks about that issue, I don't see the point of dragging it all out again here on a thread that really has little or nothing to do with it.

As the thread starter, I drew the comparison. My intention was not to criticize Asderaki, although I think she showed poor judgement here, but to highlight the nonsense of penalising a player who grunts in pain or, in the last instance, gasps when she slips, but allows players to scream loudly as a deliberate tactic. It is the combination of the ITF/WTA's tolerance of persistent screaming coupled with Asderaki's trigger-happy use of the hindrance rule in any other instance that has made an mockery of the rules. It has been claimed that the rules applied to screaming as a tactic are different but I am still waiting for somebody to say which rule is interpreted to mean that a player may scream loudly when hitting the ball.

Well, perhaps I was missing something, but I had been watching tennis for over 50 years and never heard a hinderance call. The first time, probably with Eva calling it, was in Miami in a match between Justine and Caroline W. Justine hit an obvious winning volley and yelled allez before the ball got by Caroline. Everyone except Eva, seemed very surprised by the call. Then there was the silly call against Serena, again by Eva, at the USO. Now yesterday, again by Eva, which was totally ridiculous. This woman, it seems to me, is looking for attention. Also, the rule needs to be changed.

I've seen unintentional hindrance called once or twice for things such as hats falling off or balls falling out of pockets. I believe Venus was penalised when she was younger when the beads started falling out of her hair. But I too have never seen another umpire call hindrance for this kind of thing.

One or two people have suggested that Asderaki was trying to prove her impartiality after the US Open incident by calling hindrance on one of Serena's opponents. If so then she has let herself down because she would have failed to treat Razzano with the fairness that she was attempting to demonstrate towards Serena.

Justin
May 30th, 2012, 01:06 PM
Can't believe I used to have respect for her. :facepalm:

Great that Razzano still gave her a handshake though, much credit to her. :yeah:


Agree with part I. But if I was Razzano, I sure as hell wouldn't have shaken her hand. Asderaki is out of my sig. :armed:

stromatolite
May 30th, 2012, 01:41 PM
I'm sorry but that last call was overzealous, to put it mildly. Watch the footage again. It amounted to a gasp as she slipped tagged onto the end of her regular grunt, which itself does not appear to be terribly loud, and was before the ball crossed the net. It was "Aaagh-ah" instead of "Aaagh".

Maybe it was, but in that case it was a single dicey call. Can happen in the split second umpires have to make decisions like this. The very best umpires have made worse calls than this, so I assume that this is not the point of the thread.



As the thread starter, I drew the comparison. My intention was not to criticize Asderaki, although I think she showed poor judgement here, but to highlight the nonsense of penalising a player who grunts in pain or, in the last instance, gasps when she slips, but allows players to scream loudly as a deliberate tactic. It is the combination of the ITF/WTA's tolerance of persistent screaming coupled with Asderaki's trigger-happy use of the hindrance rule in any other instance that has made an mockery of the rules. It has been claimed that the rules applied to screaming as a tactic are different but I am still waiting for somebody to say which rule is interpreted to mean that a player may scream loudly when hitting the ball.

The tolerance the tour as a whole shows towards grunting also can't be the point of the thread. It annoys the shit out of me, and I'd be delighted if they did something about it (although I'm not entirely convinced that the hindrance rule is the right way to tackle the problem), but as you stated this is a general thing and has nothing to do with whether Eva is making a mockery of the hindrance rule.


I've seen unintentional hindrance called once or twice for things such as hats falling off or balls falling out of pockets. I believe Venus was penalised when she was younger when the beads started falling out of her hair. But I too have never seen another umpire call hindrance for this kind of thing.

One or two people have suggested that Asderaki was trying to prove her impartiality after the US Open incident by calling hindrance on one of Serena's opponents. If so then she has let herself down because she would have failed to treat Razzano with the fairness that she was attempting to demonstrate towards Serena.

This is the crux of the matter. Like you and others, I have seldom or never seen other cases where the hindrance rule was invoked. The thing is, I've also never seen players making a really loud noise like this during a point just before the opponent attempts to play their shot*, other than the two matches in question. In both cases, my spontaneous reaction, before Eva said or did anything was: "she can't do that, it's unfair to her opponent". I would have been affronted if she hadn't done anything (in fact, she didn't do anything the first time Virginie did it, presumably because she was caught off guard). And if I had ever seen something like this happen when another umpire was officiating I would have been affronted then as well if they'd failed to act, but I haven't. As far as I can see it's sheer dumb luck that both these incidents occurred when she was umpiring. This is not something you can blame her for.

*NB This is the problem with using the hindrance rule to tackle grunting. The timing of the sound is less obviously interfering with the opponent's shot (I believe it is, but in a different sense, not easily interpreted as hindrance as it is usually understood)

SAISAI-GOAT
May 30th, 2012, 01:49 PM
Razzano gave her a handshake because she won the match ... if she lost for sure she would not have :tape:

I want her to give Hindrance to every shot Vika and Maria hit :inlove:

Jane Lane
May 30th, 2012, 02:07 PM
:rolls: You all act like Eva's never umpired Vika, Maria etc. before.

For once the tools on ESPN did something right. They said the first 2 were 100% correct and the other one was a judgement call, which, at the end of the day, is what this rule is.

I can recall like 4 other matches in the past 2 years when I saw hindrance called with other umpires.

Doully
May 30th, 2012, 02:13 PM
:rolls: You all act like Eva's never umpired Vika, Maria etc. before.

For once the tools on ESPN did something right. They said the first 2 were 100% correct and the other one was a judgement call, which, at the end of the day, is what this rule is.

I can recall like 4 other matches in the past 2 years when I saw hindrance called with other umpires.

Don't try to talk sense. According to some folk on this thread, it's practically Eva's fault - and her fault alone - for the grunting on tour. :lol:

borrowedheaven
May 30th, 2012, 02:33 PM
I thought Eva did a great job. Rules are rules, and she's actually one of the few empires who has the guts to apply them.

Virginie could've called the trainer, but she didn't. Eva warned that if it would happen again, she would get a point penalty. What more should Asderaki have done?

bobito
May 30th, 2012, 02:36 PM
Don't try to talk sense. According to some folk on this thread, it's practically Eva's fault - and her fault alone - for the grunting on tour. :lol:

No, it's the WTA and ITF's fault. However, by her over-zealous application of the hindrance rule, Asderaki has created a ludicrous contradiction in the application of the rules where a player gasping in pain or because of a stumble can be called for hindrance but a player who is screaming with the intention of hindering her opponent is not.

miffedmax
May 30th, 2012, 02:39 PM
The irony is that if officials had called matches as tightly as Eva does now back in the '80s, we wouldn't have grunting or tantrums as issues today.

I wish MORE umpires were as strict as she is.

Joana
May 30th, 2012, 02:44 PM
Unless the rule states that players have to be completely silent during points (which obviously is a nonsense), then no, Asderaki wasn't following the rules.

Aravanecaravan
May 30th, 2012, 02:48 PM
It's been proven that grunting help your shots.


Is that why Azapova et al elect to shriek like banshees at some times during a match and not at others? 'Let's see, I think I'll deliberately choose to play poorly for awhile now since I'm ahead....'

It's gamesmanship, pure and simple, and has nothing to do with hitting a better shot.

Sammo
May 30th, 2012, 02:49 PM
owaWgL0kiOw

Serena's face at 0:36 says it all

C. Drone
May 30th, 2012, 02:51 PM
one word: squeaky shoes. (okay, its two.)
Is that hindrance too? whats the difference yelping and making noise with the shoes (when your opponent serving)? Can umpire decide which is deliberate and which isnt?

bobito
May 30th, 2012, 02:54 PM
The irony is that if officials had called matches as tightly as Eva does now back in the '80s, we wouldn't have grunting or tantrums as issues today.

I wish MORE umpires were as strict as she is.

Max, would you mind clarifying something that you wrote earlier?


Believe it or not, grunting, and hindrance are two separate rules under the Laws of Tennis and are handled differently.

I didn't see the match today, so I'm not going to comment on whether she was right or wrong this time (unlike the USO, where she was 100% correct).

However, comparing shrieks of pain (a hindrance under the laws of tennis) to grunting (covered by a different law of tennis, and only considered a hindrance under certain very specific circumstances) is pointless.

What is the rule that is interpreted to mean that a player may scream loudly when hitting the ball?

n1_and_uh_noone
May 30th, 2012, 02:56 PM
I don't understand the rule. The last times Eva called a hindrance, she docked the guilty party a point automatically. How come Razzano got a free pass (replay) the first time around? Is there subjectivity involved in the case of an apparent injury? :confused:

On the subject of subjectivity, she could have used her judgment there. Razzano clearly was suffering some kind of twinge/muscle pull moving wide but did not feel it all the time, and maybe felt a trainer was not necessary. However, being penalized 3 points in a 3rd set and still winning was just :worship:

miffedmax
May 30th, 2012, 02:57 PM
No, it's the WTA and ITF's fault. However, by her over-zealous application of the hindrance rule, Asderaki has created a ludicrous contradiction in the application of the rules where a player gasping in pain or because of a stumble can be called for hindrance but a player who is screaming with the intention of hindering her opponent is not.

It's not a contradiction. It's actually covered in the rules. And a player yelping in pain is treated differently from a grunt. And it is an unintentional hindrance. It's in black-and-white.

Vincey!
May 30th, 2012, 02:59 PM
sorry bobito but how many people need to tell you that grunting and scream out of pain is not the same thing :tape:

NashaMasha
May 30th, 2012, 03:00 PM
http://engineerblogs.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/donald-trump-youre-fired.jpg

Eva Azderaki

Jane Lane
May 30th, 2012, 03:02 PM
I don't understand the rule. The last times Eva called a hindrance, she docked the guilty party a point automatically. How come Razzano got a free pass (replay) the first time around? Is there subjectivity involved in the case of an apparent injury? :confused:

On the subject of subjectivity, she could have used her judgment there. Razzano clearly was suffering some kind of twinge/muscle pull moving wide but did not feel it all the time, and maybe felt a trainer was not necessary. However, being penalized 3 points in a 3rd set and still winning was just :worship:

:facepalm: That's why the point was replayed on the first one, because it was the exact moment the pain/injury/whatever occurred. Out of her control.

Asderaki asked her if she needed the trainer, she said no, warned her if it happened again it'd be a point penalty. Happened twice, boom.

There is literally nothing here outside the letter of the rules.

That's why. USO is intentional black and white.

miffedmax
May 30th, 2012, 03:02 PM
I don't understand the rule. The last times Eva called a hindrance, she docked the guilty party a point automatically. How come Razzano got a free pass (replay) the first time around? Is there subjectivity involved in the case of an apparent injury? :confused:

On the subject of subjectivity, she could have used her judgment there. Razzano clearly was suffering some kind of twinge/muscle pull moving wide but did not feel it all the time, and maybe felt a trainer was not necessary. However, being penalized 3 points in a 3rd set and still winning was just :worship:

Crying out in pain is an unintentional hindrance. Therefore, on the first occurrence, the point is replayed.

Subsequent hindrances are penalized.

In the case with Serena, shouting "Come on!" was deemed a deliberate hindrance, so the penalty is given immediately.

(Arguably, you have no control over a shriek of pain, but saying actual words requires deliberate intention, therefore the difference in the decision. Some officials might have ruled that the shout of "Come on!" was simply being caught up in the moment and should have been an unintentional hindrance--which is what Serena implied later--but when that call came up in my class most of the officials agreed with Azderaki.)

mac47
May 30th, 2012, 03:04 PM
Then she should do likewise every time Sharapova, Azarenka, Williams, Schiavone, et al yell out during play, i.e. every damn point.

Absolutely. This is the letter of the law. Pova says she will always continue screaming during play because "no one important enough has asked me to stop." I just wish there were someone with bad blood against her to make a complaint on the first scream, and shut her up for the rest of the match as the ump threatens point penalties. It would be so satisfying.

pancake
May 30th, 2012, 03:07 PM
I don't see why people bring grunting into the discussion because Azderaki does what she has to do with the rules and you guys talk like she's the one making the rules. She's an umpire, she does what the rules tells her, she sees what's right and wrong as the rules tell her. If grunting is not covered then she can do nothing.

StoneRose
May 30th, 2012, 03:08 PM
Thx for clarification Dentine,Max. I too wondered why there wasn't an immediate penalty with the first shout of pain. Your explanation makes perfect sense.

barmaid
May 30th, 2012, 03:08 PM
Found it very distracting and difficult to understand.:p..it baffled everybody..players, coaches, the French organizers and big wigs, the commentators, the ball kids, and mostly family of the players and especially the fans! :mad: Cookoo!!:eek:

Barmaid:wavey:

StoneRose
May 30th, 2012, 03:11 PM
Absolutely. This is the letter of the law. Pova says she will always continue screaming during play because "no one important enough has asked me to stop." I just wish there were someone with bad blood against her to make a complaint on the first scream, and shut her up for the rest of the match as the ump threatens point penalties. It would be so satisfying.According to the current rules that complaint would be turned down. Or Aga would have filed that complaint ages ago.

bobito
May 30th, 2012, 03:12 PM
sorry bobito but how many people need to tell you that grunting and scream out of pain is not the same thing :tape:

I agree that deliberate screaming and a cry of pain are different. as yet nobody has explained why the latter is punished but the former is allowed. It would seem to me that the following rule would prohibit screaming as a tactic:

If a player is hindered in playing the point by a deliberate act of the opponent(s), the player shall win the point. However, the point shall be replayed if a player is hindered in playing the point by either an unintentional act of the opponent(s), or something outside the player’s own control (not including a permanent fixture).

There is no mention of whether the ball is in the player's half of the court or the opponents. Nor is there any mention of it having to cause a distraction. Many players past and present, Evert, Navratilova, Tauziet, Wozniacki, Radwanska and Jankovic off the top of my head, have stated that opponents screaming as they hit the ball presents a hindrance. Navratilova has explained it in detail, pointing out that a player can pick up the power, cleanness and spin of a shot better by hearing it but that screaming makes this impossible.

Nobody has yet explained under which rule screaming as a tactic is deemed permissible.

Brena
May 30th, 2012, 03:12 PM
Absolutely. This is the letter of the law. Pova says she will always continue screaming during play because "no one important enough has asked me to stop." I just wish there were someone with bad blood against her to make a complaint on the first scream, and shut her up for the rest of the match as the ump threatens point penalties. It would be so satisfying.

My impression is that WTA won't do anything about the screaming until Sharapova retires. Everyone would benefit from a screaming ban, the crowds, the players (apart from the few who scream, obviously) and the umpires (less confusion about what constitutes a hindrance),and yet, no one is doing anything about it. Sharapova is such a two-legged money-making machine that she's untouchable - WTA, Nike and about million other sponsors are behind her and anything she does, so I reckon we can all forget about this entire matter as long as she's on the tour.

bobito
May 30th, 2012, 03:17 PM
It's not a contradiction. It's actually covered in the rules. And a player yelping in pain is treated differently from a grunt. And it is an unintentional hindrance. It's in black-and-white.

Once again, please state which rule allows screaming when hitting the ball.

NashaMasha
May 30th, 2012, 03:19 PM
In such crucial moment of the match umpire's decision should not be determining the result of the match....But this is what EVa was doing in the match, her gifted points were really much more influencial on score than this pretty quite yelps

this absolutely not loud and not deliberate yelps were not in fact hindering or affecting Serena strikes.. Umpire should not be a brainless robot calling every sound or even loud breathing a hindrance.

In soccer judge who is whistling and stopping the match for "every touch" and awarding every touch in 18 yard box with penalty kick is always called an idiot , and disappears in nowhere and is forbidden to judge crucial matches

pancake
May 30th, 2012, 03:22 PM
Once again, please state which rule allows screaming when hitting the ball.

It has more to do with the official than with Azderaki IMO.

Jane Lane
May 30th, 2012, 03:27 PM
In such crucial moment of the match umpire's decision should not be determining the result of the match....But this is what EVa was doing in the match, her gifted points were really much more influencial on score than this pretty quite yelps

this absolutely not loud and not deliberate yelps were not in fact hindering or affecting Serena strikes.. Umpire should not be a brainless robot calling every sound or even loud breathing a hindrance.

In soccer judge who is whistling and stopping the match for "every touch" and awarding every touch in 18 yard box with penalty kick is always called an idiot , and disappears in nowhere and is forbidden to judge crucial matches

If you don't enforce the rules at the biggest events, why even have them? Idiot logic.

bobito
May 30th, 2012, 03:27 PM
It has more to do with the official than with Azderaki IMO.

Greed but by calling hindrance when a player grunts in pain or when they stumble while not calling it for players who scream deliberately (accepting that she has no doubt been instructed not to), Asderaki has created a ludicrous situation.

pancake
May 30th, 2012, 03:29 PM
Greed but by calling hindrance when a player grunts in pain or when they stumble while not calling it for players who scream deliberately (accepting that she has no doubt been instructed not to), Asderaki has created a ludicrous situation.

I know, but she warned her already if she yelped or grunted in pain again she would be given a point penalty I believe.

NashaMasha
May 30th, 2012, 03:35 PM
If you don't enforce the rules at the biggest events, why even have them? Idiot logic.

Rules are rules but there should be common sense either... Should shoes slips called hindrance? loud breathing? stomach sounds?
As for me if hidrance is deliberate it should be called hindrance , if it wasn't deliberate and can't affect opponents strike - it shouldn't

Following the rules as a blind idiot without taking care of the real situation is not a distinguishing feature of perfect umpire

Was Azderaki right in her decisions? Maybe. Was she just? Definitely not.

bobito
May 30th, 2012, 03:36 PM
I know, but she warned her already if she yelped or grunted in pain again she would be given a point penalty I believe.

But she and other umpires don't warn or penalise players who scream deliberately. I would love to know where in the rules it says that deliberate screaming when hitting the ball is exempt from the hindrance rule but those people who have said that it is covered by another rule or the rules treat it differently have as yet to explain which rule allows deliberate screaming. See if you can find such a rule because I certainly can't.

http://beta.itftennis.com/media/107013/107013.pdf

Joana
May 30th, 2012, 03:37 PM
Again, which rule did Asderaki follow? Are the players obliged to remain completely quiet during points?

bobito
May 30th, 2012, 03:39 PM
Again, which rule did Asderaki follow? Are the players obliged to remain completely quiet during points?

Rule 26. HINDRANCE. If a player is hindered in playing the point by a deliberate act of the opponent(s), the player shall win the point. However, the point shall be replayed if a player is hindered in playing the point by either an unintentional act of the opponent(s), or something outside the player’s own control (not including a permanent fixture).

As I understand it, once unintentional hindrance is called, it is considered the player's responsibility to ensure that it doesn't happen again.

However, the point at 30-30 in the final game being called hindrance, intentional or unintentional, was pedantic in the extreme.

stromatolite
May 30th, 2012, 03:43 PM
The subject of grunting on TF is like a red flag to a bull: it's guaranteed to elicit hundreds of opiniated reactions, depending on whether the posters' faves are grunters or not. In that sense by tying this thread to grunting you've made it appear sexier than it really is. Eva deals with grunting like all umpires do, i.e. she doesn't deal with it.

There have been countless recent threads on whether or not this is a good or a bad thing, but the fact of the matter is that for any given umpire officiating today it is what it is: an umpire can't unilaterally overturn the situation. But any umpire that allows his/her judgment of anything else that takes place on court to be clouded by this apparent idiosyncracy would not be fit to officiate at a local fundraising tournament let alone a slam.

Joana
May 30th, 2012, 03:44 PM
Rule 26. HINDRANCE. If a player is hindered in playing the point by a deliberate act of the opponent(s), the player shall win the point. However, the point shall be replayed if a player is hindered in playing the point by either an unintentional act of the opponent(s), or something outside the player’s own control (not including a permanent fixture).

I understand that, of course. However, it doesn't say that any sound a player makes is automatically a hindrance. Logically, as it wouldn't make any sense.

So, I wonder in what way was Serena hindered in that last situation and what rule did Asderaki follow there.

Craig.
May 30th, 2012, 03:45 PM
Wait, why is Asderaki getting shit for not saying anything to stop the "unholy shriekers"? No umpires do. It's been like this for ages. I'm not saying it's not an issue (I personally don't mind it), but how is it her fault?

n1_and_uh_noone
May 30th, 2012, 03:50 PM
Rule 26. HINDRANCE. If a player is hindered in playing the point by a deliberate act of the opponent(s), the player shall win the point. However, the point shall be replayed if a player is hindered in playing the point by either an unintentional act of the opponent(s), or something outside the player’s own control (not including a permanent fixture).

As I understand it, once unintentional hindrance is called, it is considered the player's responsibility to ensure that it doesn't happen again.

However, the point at 30-30 in the final game being called hindrance, intentional or unintentional, was pedantic in the extreme.

The hindrance rule is such a joke. The way it is written, every player has the right to claim a grunt hinders him. But they don't. And officials assume grunting is not a hindrance (after all, this is a subjective ruling), and when something really 'unusual' happens, like a Come On or whispered Allez :oh: or cry of anguish, it is pounced upon.

If you ask me, it is the fault of players for not standing up to the officials and demanding the rule be enforced for grunting. "hindered in playing the point by a deliberate act of the opponent" is easy to see with grunting, but of course there has to be common sense involved else some outrageous claims are possible eg. the trajectory of an opponent's boobs is distracting and a hindrance.

bobito
May 30th, 2012, 03:53 PM
But the fact of the matter is that for any given umpire officiating today it is what it is: an umpire can't unilaterally overturn the situation.

Agreed.

But any umpire that allows his/her judgment of anything else that takes place on court to be clouded by this apparent idiosyncracy would not be fit to officiate at a local fundraising tournament let alone a slam.

But not with this bit. Azderaki's position now seems to be that a player can wail like a banshee unless they are in pain, in which case they must play in silence. Once you allow player to grunt and scream when they hit the ball you cannot start penalising players because their grunt is caused by genuine distress. You either allow it or you don't.

The fact is that Eva Asderaki penalised a player for grunting a split second after she hit the ball, before the ball had crossed the net. Either you do that in every case or none.

bobito
May 30th, 2012, 03:56 PM
I understand that, of course. However, it doesn't say that any sound a player makes is automatically a hindrance. Logically, as it wouldn't make any sense.

So, I wonder in what way was Serena hindered in that last situation and what rule did Asderaki follow there.

She wasn't. All Razzano did was tag a brief gasp onto the end of her normal grunt. "Aagh-ah" instead of "Aaagh".

Melange
May 30th, 2012, 03:57 PM
sorry bobito but how many people need to tell you that grunting and scream out of pain is not the same thing :tape:

He asked specifically for which rule covers grunting

Ryan
May 30th, 2012, 04:00 PM
Agreed.



But not with this bit. Azderaki's position now seems to be that a player can wail like a banshee unless they are in pain, in which case they must play in silence. Once you allow player to grunt and scream when they hit the ball you cannot start penalising players because their grunt is caused by genuine distress. You either allow it or you don't.

The fact is that Eva Asderaki penalised a player for grunting a split second after she hit the ball, before the ball had crossed the net. Either you do that in every case or none.


Get your panties untwisted before you have a heart attack. :lol:


You absolutely can distinguish between the two - grunting is a HUGE can of worms, but noises that start AFTER the ball leaves your racket, are completely different. Her grunt was fine, but when Virginie made an entirely separate noise after making contact, she's up for a penalty. Chiillllll bro.

NashaMasha
May 30th, 2012, 04:01 PM
"Aagh-ah" instead of "Aaagh".

so does Azarenka with every hit )))) WOOOOOOO HOOOOOOO , shreik is still in the air when opponent hits the ball ))

Joana
May 30th, 2012, 04:03 PM
She wasn't. All Razzano did was tag a brief gasp onto the end of her normal grunt. "Aagh-ah" instead of "Aaagh".

That's how I see it too. Basically, it was a somewhat different grunt, and it's something that happens in every match. I'm 100% sure that call only happened because of the previous instances of hindrance, which were more justifiable, but you cannot punish someone for what they did previously. It would be a bias on Asderaki's part.

I'm not asking that she be banned from umpiring, mistakes happen, I understand that, but to see people praise her for this is ridiculous.

miffedmax
May 30th, 2012, 04:05 PM
It's actually covered in the addendums and comments, which vary slightly from sanctioning organization to sanctioning organization but are essentially consistent.

If Razzano really thought a gross interpretation of the laws of tennis had taken place, she could have asked for the referee.

Whitehead's Boy
May 30th, 2012, 04:07 PM
Get your panties untwisted before you have a heart attack. :lol:


You absolutely can distinguish between the two - grunting is a HUGE can of worms, but noises that start AFTER the ball leaves your racket, are completely different. Her grunt was fine, but when Virginie made an entirely separate noise after making contact, she's up for a penalty. Chiillllll bro.

But then there's the issue that some players grunt after making contact, like Schiavone does (or used to do). The line between grunting and random noises is very thin.

Melange
May 30th, 2012, 04:07 PM
In such crucial moment of the match umpire's decision should not be determining the result of the match....But this is what EVa was doing in the match, her gifted points were really much more influencial on score than this pretty quite yelps


Thank You :yeah:

NoChokes
May 30th, 2012, 04:09 PM
Bobito is absolutely right. Most of the people disagreeing with him are simply not quite grasping what he is trying to say.

Azderaki was essentially following the letter of the law, but the problem is that the hinderance rule wasn't meant to cover accidental yelps of pain. It was more for the 'come ons' and the physical things like balls dropping out of pockets.

I think the major point is that when umpires start using this law for little noises like this and other players are roaring like wild animals when playing shots, it looks stupid. You've got players like Serena or Vika who scream when playing drop shots but this is not covered in any rules so it's fine, despite it being a ploy to deliberately hinder your opponent.

In short, what's the point of following the hinderance law in such a draconian manner when the thing that is most commonly used and is perhaps the most hindering is not even covered by the rule?

NashaMasha
May 30th, 2012, 04:11 PM
If Razzano really thought a gross interpretation of the laws of tennis had taken place, she could have asked for the referee.

Razzano was so much concentrated on the game, on her every serve, she just switched off from "any Azderaki-s" and her dubious calls and gifted points....

She was right that she didn't spend her emotions on this preconceived umpire

n1_and_uh_noone
May 30th, 2012, 04:12 PM
In such crucial moment of the match umpire's decision should not be determining the result of the match....But this is what EVa was doing in the match, her gifted points were really much more influencial on score than this pretty quite yelps

Like one other poster, I disagree vehemently with this. Enforce the rule consistently, in ALL matches, at ALL times. It is :bs: to stop doing it if it is matchpoint or whatever. In fact, enforce it more strictly then so people get to appreciate it better.

bobito
May 30th, 2012, 04:12 PM
It's actually covered in the addendums and comments, which vary slightly from sanctioning organization to sanctioning organization but are essentially consistent.

If Razzano really thought a gross interpretation of the laws of tennis had taken place, she could have asked for the referee.

Care to quote an example?

Melange
May 30th, 2012, 04:14 PM
Rule 26. HINDRANCE. If a player is hindered in playing the point by a deliberate act of the opponent(s), the player shall win the point. However, the point shall be replayed if a player is hindered in playing the point by either an unintentional act of the opponent(s), or something outside the player’s own control (not including a permanent fixture).

As I understand it, once unintentional hindrance is called, it is considered the player's responsibility to ensure that it doesn't happen again.

However, the point at 30-30 in the final game being called hindrance, intentional or unintentional, was pedantic in the extreme.


That is so vague its wide open to interpretation

Whitehead's Boy
May 30th, 2012, 04:14 PM
Sometimes Seles would throw a random noise (which wasn't the same kind of noises as her usual grunting) and or hit the ground with her racket.

I think it's wrong to separate the grunting issues. A lot of players who grunt sometimes make noises that aren't anything like their usual grunt. (And yes, after the ball was hit) Why should players who grunt get away with all kind of noises because they happen to be grunters? Something is not right here.