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View Full Version : Christian group books anti-gay ads to appear on buses


Mynarco
Apr 12th, 2012, 04:04 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/12/christian-anti-gay-ads-buses?commentpage=last#end-of-comments

Christian group books anti-gay ads to appear on buses
A 'gay therapy' campaign to appear in London is aimed at changing the sexual orientation of homosexual people

London buses have been booked to carry a Christian advertising campaign expected to start next week, which asserts the power of therapy to change the sexual orientation of gay people.

The full length advert, which will appear on five different routes in the capital, is backed by the Core Issues Trust whose leader, Mike Davies, believes "homoerotic behaviour is sinful". His charity funds "reparative therapy" for gay Christians who believe that they have homosexual feelings but want to become straight. The campaign is also backed by Anglican Mainstream, an worldwide orthodox Anglican group whose supporters have equated homosexuality with alcoholism.

The advert will say: "Not gay! Post-gay, ex-gay and proud. Get over it!". Post-gay and ex-gay are terms used by Christians and some psychotherapists and psychiatrists to refer to homosexual people who have undergone spiritual or pastoral therapy and, according to an Anglican Mainstream definition, have "now left a homosexual lifestyle [and experienced] an increased emotional and sexual attraction to the opposite biological gender and possibly a reduction in or loss of same-sex attraction."

The buses are due to roll out on Monday morning on some of the most popular routes. They will be seen for two weeks travelling past St Paul's Cathedral, down Oxford Street, round Trafalgar Square and through Piccadilly Circus as well as across other parts of the capital.

The campaign is an explicit attempt to hit back at gay rights group Stonewall, which ran its own bus advert saying: "Some people are gay. Get over it". The Christian groups have used the same black, red and white colour scheme as Stonewall and accuses it of promoting the "false idea that there is indisputable scientific evidence that people are born gay".

The Rev Lynda Rose, a spokesperson for the UK branch of Anglican Mainstream said because her group adheres to scripture that all fornication outside marriage is prohibited, it believes that homosexuals are "not being fully the people God intended us to be".

It has sparked a angry response from gay rights campaigners.

The former Europe minister and gay ex-vicar, Chris Bryant MP, said the advert was cruel, particularly to teenagers struggling to come to terms with their sexuality, for promoting the idea that you could become "ex-gay".

"The emotional damage that is done to the individuals who try to suppress their sexuality, the women they marry and the children they might have is immeasurable," he said. "Most sane Christians believe that homosexuality is not a lifestyle or a choice but is a fact to be discovered or not. The pretence that homosexuality is something you can be weaned off in some way is a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of creation."

Ben Summerskill, the chief executive of Stonewall, said the adverts were "clearly homophobic" and "the only reason some gay people might want to stop being gay is because of the prejudice of the people who are publishing the ad".

"The promotion of this voodoo therapy is hugely irresponsible given the damage that it appears to do to some people," he said.

Attempts to "treat" or alter sexual orientation have been strongly condemned by leading medical organisations. The Royal College of Psychiatrists has warned that "so-called treatments of homosexuality create a setting in which prejudice and discrimination flourish" and concluded in 2010 that "there is no sound evidence that sexual orientation can be changed". The British Medical Association has also attacked "conversion therapy", a related field to reparation therapy, passing a motion asserting that it is "discredited and harmful to those 'treated'".

Rose said therapies endorsed by Anglican Mainstream and Core Issues were not coercive and stressed that they are appropriate for people who want to change their sexual attractions, for example if they are married and are worried about the impact of a gay lifestyle on their children.

"Reparative therapy works to help men, who want to, change their sexual orientation, naturally dissipate their homoerotic feelings and maximise their heterosexual potential," she said.

In a statement, Anglican Mainstream and Core Issues said Stonewall's slogan is "merely another attempt to close down the critical debate about being gay, and marriage 'equality'". They accused Stonewall of "riding roughshod over individuals" who choose to "move out of homosexuality".

They statement continued: "Both organisations recognise the rights of individuals to identify as gay, and to live according to their own values. But by the same token, they believe individuals – such as married men and women unhappy with their homosexuality – should be supported in developing their heterosexual potential where this is the appropriate life choice for them ... Current scientific research says there is no gay gene and that sexuality is far more fluid than has hitherto been thought."

darrinbaker00
Apr 12th, 2012, 04:10 PM
The company that owns the buses very easily could have said, "We don't believe in your message, and we don't want your money," but they didn't. If someone can find a better definition of tolerance, please post it here.

dsanders06
Apr 12th, 2012, 04:13 PM
The company that owns the buses very easily could have said, "We don't believe in your message, and we don't want your money," but they didn't. If someone can find a better definition of tolerance, please post it here.

Being tolerant of intolerance is a paradox.

darrinbaker00
Apr 12th, 2012, 04:18 PM
Being tolerant of intolerance is a paradox.

How is Core Issues Trust's message intolerant? If a person can live the first few years of their lives as straight and then discover that they're gay, then why can't the reverse be true?

Dominic
Apr 12th, 2012, 04:22 PM
If a person can live the first few years of their lives as straight

Huh? what are you talking about?

Whitehead's Boy
Apr 12th, 2012, 05:00 PM
If a person can live the first few years of their lives as straight and then discover that they're gay, then why can't the reverse be true?

I'm assuming you're just trolling as usual, but in the unfortunate possibility that you're serious, people who are gay and were straight were never most likely never straight in the first place. Just because some confused Sex in the City actress claims she woke up one day as a lesbian doesn't mean it's a scientific fact.

There is no rigorous scientific evidence showing that therapy can change the sexual orientation. Until such evidence is presented, such therapy has to be considered as harmful. Accepting to advertize a harmful product or service is hardly responsible and ethical. Being tolerant of bullshit is entirely meaningless, so whatever point you had in mind is meaningless, too.

darrinbaker00
Apr 12th, 2012, 06:03 PM
I'm assuming you're just trolling as usual, but in the unfortunate possibility that you're serious, people who are gay and were straight were never most likely never straight in the first place. Just because some confused Sex in the City actress claims she woke up one day as a lesbian doesn't mean it's a scientific fact.

There is no rigorous scientific evidence showing that therapy can change the sexual orientation. Until such evidence is presented, such therapy has to be considered as harmful. Accepting to advertize a harmful product or service is hardly responsible and ethical. Being tolerant of bullshit is entirely meaningless, so whatever point you had in mind is meaningless, too.

If Billie Jean King was never straight to begin with, then why can't Cynthia Nixon never have been gay to begin with?

Dominic
Apr 12th, 2012, 06:08 PM
If Billie Jean King was never straight to begin with, then why can't Cynthia Nixon never have been gay to begin with?

Because she's gay now. If you try to become sexually attracted to males (I'm supposing you're a straight male) could you do it? Sexuality is not something you can play with and change like the clothes you're wearing.

HippityHop
Apr 12th, 2012, 06:31 PM
Being tolerant of intolerance is a paradox.

What about being intolerant of intolerance?

Dominic
Apr 12th, 2012, 06:34 PM
What about being intolerant of intolerance?

That's a good thing

Whitehead's Boy
Apr 12th, 2012, 06:37 PM
If Billie Jean King was never straight to begin with, then why can't Cynthia Nixon never have been gay to begin with?

How about you clearly express whatever point you have in mind and we work from there.

You think people can change their sexual orientation with therapy? Or without? Or both? Is your belief based on anecdotes? Rigorous scientific studies? Religious dogmas?

HippityHop
Apr 12th, 2012, 06:39 PM
That's a good thing

So people who are intolerant of... say, religion should be condemned?

Dominic
Apr 12th, 2012, 06:41 PM
So people who are intolerant of... say, religion should be condemned?

Why?

dsanders06
Apr 12th, 2012, 06:41 PM
So people who are intolerant of... say, religion should be condemned?

Yes, I would condemn anyone who put up posters in a public place offering counselling to Christians to become "ex-Christians" :shrug:

Whitehead's Boy
Apr 12th, 2012, 06:47 PM
Yes, I would condemn anyone who put up posters in a public place offering counselling to Christians to become "ex-Christians" :shrug:

I might be wrong, but I don't think there is any study showing that trying to convince people to quit being Christian is harmful for those people. In fact, it seems to me there are tons of testimonies of people who've become happier after leaving Christianity. So I don't see anything unethical with that. People might disagree with doing that but that's another issue.

As opposed to therapy to change sexual orientation which has been denounced as harmful by numerous competant medical authorities.

darrinbaker00
Apr 12th, 2012, 06:56 PM
How about you clearly express whatever point you have in mind and we work from there.

You think people can change their sexual orientation with therapy? Or without? Or both? Is your belief based on anecdotes? Rigorous scientific studies? Religious dogmas?

I have expressed my point clearly. If it's possible for someone to get married, have children, then come out and say, "I've been living a lie all these years, I'm really gay," then it's just as possible for someone to have a same-sex relationship (or, in a few states, a same-sex marriage) for years, then come out and say, "I've been living a lie all these years, I'm really straight." I can't say for sure whether "ex-gay" therapy is universally helpful or harmful, because (a) I'm not a psychologist, and (b) everyone has his or her own story. Besides, I do know for sure that you and I will not persuade each other on this topic, so any further correspondence would be fruitless. I'm done with this thread.

Dominic
Apr 12th, 2012, 07:07 PM
then it's just as possible for someone to have a same-sex relationship (or, in a few states, a same-sex marriage) for years, then come out and say, "I've been living a lie all these years, I'm really straight."

Why on earth would a straight person choose to live as a gay person?? :haha: OMG :facepalm:

dsanders06
Apr 12th, 2012, 07:07 PM
The Mayor of London has blocked it. :)

A clearly angered Boris Johnson said: "London is one of the most tolerant cities in the world and intolerant of intolerance. It is clearly offensive to suggest that being gay is an illness that someone recovers from and I am not prepared to have that suggestion driven around London on our buses."

Whitehead's Boy
Apr 12th, 2012, 07:08 PM
I have expressed my point clearly. If it's possible for someone to get married, have children, then come out and say, "I've been living a lie all these years, I'm really gay," then it's just as possible for someone to have a same-sex relationship (or, in a few states, a same-sex marriage) for years, then come out and say, "I've been living a lie all these years, I'm really straight."

:facepalm:

Dominic
Apr 12th, 2012, 07:20 PM
The Mayor of London has blocked it. :)

:cheer:

Mynarco
Apr 12th, 2012, 08:27 PM
The Mayor of London has blocked it. :)

:worship::worship: Finally he's done something right

miffedmax
Apr 12th, 2012, 08:36 PM
I have expressed my point clearly. If it's possible for someone to get married, have children, then come out and say, "I've been living a lie all these years, I'm really gay," then it's just as possible for someone to have a same-sex relationship (or, in a few states, a same-sex marriage) for years, then come out and say, "I've been living a lie all these years, I'm really straight." I can't say for sure whether "ex-gay" therapy is universally helpful or harmful, because (a) I'm not a psychologist, and (b) everyone has his or her own story. Besides, I do know for sure that you and I will not persuade each other on this topic, so any further correspondence would be fruitless. I'm done with this thread.

Not really. Even in what I, for one, would consider a better world where gays were openly accepted, free from discrimination, and able to express themselves in the same way straights are, the fact is that the overwhelming majority of couples and families in both real life and in popular culture are going to be straight. Most love songs are still going to be men singing about women, and women singing about men, most books are going to be about straight couples and their issues, etc.

Straight, by shear weight of numbers is the societal "norm." And while many kids go through experimental phases (a difference being they are probably more open about it now) there is still a massive societal expectation to conform to the "norm."

A lot of the pain of coming out, at least for my brother and some of my other friends, is that you know you are giving up a lot of the things you have imprinted on you as being normal aspirations from the time you are born. The idea that a truly straight person would engage in a long-term experiment with gayness is highly unlikely given the tremendous amount of stress and difficulty is causes REAL gay people.

Some of these "recovered" gays may be bisexual, or have other issues besides their gayness that they're really dealing with. But I seriously doubt that there are any closet straights out there.

dybbuk
Apr 12th, 2012, 08:45 PM
Can darrinbaker just stop dancing around the issue and say he has a problem with homosexuality. His posts in gay-related threads are actually exhausting. He says everything BUT what is most obvious. I still remember the infamous argument against repealing of DADT: that unless all gay people rush to join the army after its repealed, it's pointless to repeal it.

Monica_Rules
Apr 12th, 2012, 08:47 PM
Not really. Even in what I, for one, would consider a better world where gays were openly accepted, free from discrimination, and able to express themselves in the same way straights are, the fact is that the overwhelming majority of couples and families in both real life and in popular culture are going to be straight. Most love songs are still going to be men singing about women, and women singing about men, most books are going to be about straight couples and their issues, etc.

Straight, by shear weight of numbers is the societal "norm." And while many kids go through experimental phases (a difference being they are probably more open about it now) there is still a massive societal expectation to conform to the "norm."

A lot of the pain of coming out, at least for my brother and some of my other friends, is that you know you are giving up a lot of the things you have imprinted on you as being normal aspirations from the time you are born. The idea that a truly straight person would engage in a long-term experiment with gayness is highly unlikely given the tremendous amount of stress and difficulty is causes REAL gay people.

Some of these "recovered" gays may be bisexual, or have other issues besides their gayness that they're really dealing with. But I seriously doubt that there are any closet straights out there.

This

Sammo
Apr 12th, 2012, 08:48 PM
Those assholes should get a fucking life, they embarrass every person who tries to be a normal Christian.

shap_half
Apr 12th, 2012, 08:54 PM
Being tolerant of intolerance is a paradox.

No, that's hypocrisy and apathy

Londoner
Apr 12th, 2012, 09:08 PM
Why on earth would a straight person choose to live as a gay person?? :haha: OMG :facepalm:

:lol: I know. darrinbaker has posted the funniest (most ludicrous) thing I have read in my time on here!

Londoner
Apr 12th, 2012, 09:10 PM
:worship::worship: Finally he's done something right

He did also get rid of the dreadful bendy buses which caused numerous accidents and deaths. They were brought in by Ken by the way!

new-york
Apr 12th, 2012, 10:51 PM
Can darrinbaker just stop dancing around the issue and say he has a problem with homosexuality. His posts in gay-related threads are actually exhausting. He says everything BUT what is most obvious. I still remember the infamous argument against repealing of DADT: that unless all gay people rush to join the army after its repealed, it's pointless to repeal it.

Devil's advocate. He can't help it's insane.

Sean.
Apr 12th, 2012, 11:12 PM
:worship::worship: Finally he's done something right

It was probably accidental.

I love Boris, but he couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo! :hug:

CloudAtlas
Apr 13th, 2012, 01:35 AM
The Mayor of London has blocked it. :)


Good stuff. Was beginning to tire of the ignorant morons defending this tripe and proclaiming the right to 'free speech' of the Christian groups, not realising that the right to freedom of expression is a qualified right and can be legitimately restricted in a democratic society. And this is a fantastic demonstration of that.

Anglican Mainstream/Core Issues Trust , back into your respective holes now :bigwave:

Pops Maellard
Apr 13th, 2012, 02:27 AM
darrinbaker :facepalm:. I haven't forgotten this amazing thread either

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=431862

Sounds like a typical bible-belt sort :lol:.

Novichok
Apr 13th, 2012, 02:54 AM
Devil's advocate. He can't help it's insane.

If he wants to be a Devil's advocate, he should at least form somewhat cogent arguments. :facepalm:

égalité
Apr 13th, 2012, 03:11 AM
I have expressed my point clearly. If it's possible for someone to get married, have children, then come out and say, "I've been living a lie all these years, I'm really gay," then it's just as possible for someone to have a same-sex relationship (or, in a few states, a same-sex marriage) for years, then come out and say, "I've been living a lie all these years, I'm really straight." I can't say for sure whether "ex-gay" therapy is universally helpful or harmful, because (a) I'm not a psychologist, and (b) everyone has his or her own story. Besides, I do know for sure that you and I will not persuade each other on this topic, so any further correspondence would be fruitless. I'm done with this thread.

What exactly would be the motivation behind a straight person "living a lie" and having a same-sex relationship? Fear of being condemned by their family and friends?

In The Zone
Apr 13th, 2012, 03:24 AM
Minus points for Darrin in this thread. Shame.

Dave.
Apr 13th, 2012, 03:57 AM
^^ Yep. :facepalm:

Good to see they have been taken down. The original ads convey a simple, necessary message and it's so nice to see them drive past. These were only aimed at stirring up hatred and misery.

Moveyourfeet
Apr 13th, 2012, 04:19 AM
I have expressed my point clearly. If it's possible for someone to get married, have children, then come out and say, "I've been living a lie all these years, I'm really gay," then it's just as possible for someone to have a same-sex relationship (or, in a few states, a same-sex marriage) for years, then come out and say, "I've been living a lie all these years, I'm really straight."

Did you think at all, or just type whatever came into your head?

For your 'point' to make any kind of sense, the causal agent of human sexuality must be mutable through volition; biases, social stigma must also be equivalent for all variations of sexuality OR there must be some overriding net benefit to the heterosexual of feigning a homosexual orientation.

The short version is, it most definitely is not just as possible, for the converse situation you described above to happen.

Your troll game is passed its peak.

$uricate
Apr 13th, 2012, 09:27 AM
Everyone has a right to free speech :shrug:

Not hating.

égalité
Apr 13th, 2012, 12:39 PM
Everyone has a right to free speech :shrug:

Not hating.

Yeah, including the people who are offended by this and want it not to be on the buses.

ranfurly
Apr 13th, 2012, 12:43 PM
Everyone has a right to free speech :shrug:

Not hating.

Within Reason,

I don't believe it's reasonable or appropriate for that matter spend thousands of dollars on advertising public transport to get your point across.

Money talks, but not like this.

pov
Apr 13th, 2012, 03:10 PM
It's a fact that some people do become "ex-gay." It's also a fact that many people don't. It's a fact that some people consciously choose to be a gay ("ex-straight"). It's also a fact that many people don't.

The thing with most issues nowadays is that most people approach them with simplistic reductionism. Where many "gay rights activists" is that their message often seems to be: "It sucks to be gay but we can't help it." How that's seen as positive is puzzling.

Dominic
Apr 13th, 2012, 03:25 PM
"It sucks to be gay but we can't help it." How that's seen as positive is puzzling.

First of all nobody becomes an ex-straight, they just finally embrace their homosexuality and accept it and/or come out of the closet.

Second of all, Huh!? Haven't you ever heard the phrase "gay pride". The only thing that sucks about being gay is that there are idiots like you who see it as wrong somehow.

miffedmax
Apr 13th, 2012, 03:28 PM
What exactly would be the motivation behind a straight person "living a lie" and having a same-sex relationship? Fear of being condemned by their family and friends?

I lost a bet. Damn that fucking bitch Dementieva and her suckass serve.

CloudAtlas
Apr 13th, 2012, 03:29 PM
It's a fact that some people do become "ex-gay." It's also a fact that many people don't. It's a fact that some people consciously choose to be a gay ("ex-straight"). It's also a fact that many people don't.

The thing with most issues nowadays is that most people approach them with simplistic reductionism. Where many "gay rights activists" is that their message often seems to be: "It sucks to be gay but we can't help it." How that's seen as positive is puzzling.


Who consciously chooses to be gay? I don't think I've ever seen one example of that. Men who previously claim to be straight then proclaim that they are gay are not making a concious decision to change their sexuality, instead they are coming to terms with their sexuality after being in denial of it all along.

Furthermore the validity of gay exorcisms and conversion therapies, so to speak, is widely debated and it is condemned by most major psychiatric associations. The fact that those who claim it is successful tend to become rambling bible-thumpers should be proof enough in itself of how ridiculous and idiotic it all is.

JN
Apr 13th, 2012, 03:38 PM
Furthermore the validity of gay exorcisms and conversion therapies, so to speak, is widely debated and it is condemned by most major psychiatric associations. The fact that those who claim it is successful tend to become rambling bible-thumpers should be proof enough in itself of how ridiculous and idiotic it all is.

You mean like this guy?

DvJaxK8_T7w

CloudAtlas
Apr 13th, 2012, 03:42 PM
You mean like this guy?

DvJaxK8_T7w


A clearly closeted anti-gay man who is the husband of a rambling anti-gay Republican? Not too different I would say.

miffedmax
Apr 13th, 2012, 03:44 PM
Actually, this is an unusual case, as I theorize being married to Michelle Bachman might actually turn you gay.

Unless, of course, you were a lesbian.

InsideOut.
Apr 13th, 2012, 03:52 PM
Actually, this is an unusual case, as I theorize being married to Michelle Bachman might actually turn you gay.

Unless, of course, you were a lesbian.

Suggesting the only effective 'therapy' for lesbianism would be to sleep with Michelle Bachmann. :worship:

Mynarco
Apr 13th, 2012, 04:01 PM
Actually, this is an unusual case, as I theorize being married to Michelle Bachman might actually turn you gay.

Unless, of course, you were a lesbian.

:bigcry:

miffedmax
Apr 13th, 2012, 05:38 PM
Suggesting the only effective 'therapy' for lesbianism would be to sleep with Michelle Bachmann. :worship:

You say "therapy." Others might say "mind-searing trauma."

Direwolf
Apr 13th, 2012, 05:38 PM
Sounds awful.
Let them be what they want themselves to be.

No need for sexist advertisement.