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Wiggly
Mar 31st, 2012, 06:37 PM
All tennis courts have been slowed down worlwide. Has it gone too far?

Faster courts may help the WTA.
The Tour would be a lot less physical, cutting down a lot of injuries.
It would force the players to improve their technique/footwork.

Tennis will always a war between offense and defense.
However, current courts give a clear edge to the let-them-hit-one-more-ball school.

There would also be more shotmaking from the defensive players.

goldenlox
Mar 31st, 2012, 06:38 PM
Paris Indoors had long grueling matches. Bartoli looked spent at the end of her loss, so did Wickmayer.
There's even more side to side spurts on faster courts

If they dont slow it down, players like Karlovic can beat anyone. Tournament directors dont want that

Tennis Fool
Mar 31st, 2012, 06:39 PM
People have been talking about this for over a decade.

Aaron.
Mar 31st, 2012, 06:40 PM
The slowed down the courts to please you folk because you were complaining about serve and volleyers, now you complain again. Enough!

NashaMasha
Mar 31st, 2012, 06:40 PM
in 5-7 years we will have 15-20 top defensive players (a huge number of Caroline Radvanski) and some agressive attacking players, but they will have to qualify for Slams , as will not be seeded


If they dont slow it down, players like Karlovic can beat anyone. Tournament directors dont want that

Has he won everything on grass?

laurie
Mar 31st, 2012, 06:44 PM
Paris Indoors had long grueling matches. Bartoli looked spent at the end of her loss, so did Wickmayer.
There's even more side to side spurts on faster courts

If they dont slow it down, players like Karlovic can beat anyone. Tournament directors dont want that

Goldenlox, I was at that tournament and I wouldn't consider Paris indoor a fast court at all, I considered it medium paced. The court is plexicushion, just like in Australia but plays a bit quicker as no elements. But certainly not a fast court like the indoor carpet they used to have in the past.

$uricate
Mar 31st, 2012, 06:48 PM
Yes.

Aggressive power-players are becoming an endangered species. We dont want a tour full of pushers.

Can you imagine if Mary Pierce was playing in this era? She would never have achieved her peakness.

laurie
Mar 31st, 2012, 06:50 PM
By the way, it is interesting who has been at number the last few years beside Serena:

Jelena Jankovic
Dinara Safina
Caroline Wozniacki
Victoria Azarenka

Players who probably favour slower courts and don't play with a lot of creativity or imagination, Jankovic is probably the most creative out of those players (and her game is not that creative by the way).

So it seems quite clear at this stage that unless Kvitova gets to number 1 in the next year or two, the grinder player could rule the WTA for a very very long time to come :scared:

Emina.
Mar 31st, 2012, 06:51 PM
Yes, definitely.

I can see Radwanska winning the US Open hiting 3 winners in the final.

doujyr
Mar 31st, 2012, 06:52 PM
putting aside petty loyalties, i can't believe the majority of the public want to watch pushers and grinders. this is going to be bad, very bad. people will vote with their feet and remote controls.

Wiggly
Mar 31st, 2012, 06:52 PM
The mixed events help the WTA crowds-wise but the ATP needs slooooow courts in order to have Nadal, Djokovic and Murray happy.

Maybe the could use faster balls for the women?

laurie
Mar 31st, 2012, 06:53 PM
in 5-7 years we will have 15-20 top defensive players (a huge number of Caroline Radvanski) and some agressive attacking players, but they will have to qualify for Slams , as will not be seeded




Has he won everything on grass?

Goldenlox knows he's talking rubbish there because Karlovic can't return serve and is too tall so doesn't move well. On faster courts players with more creativity and good movement are the ones who tend to win more often; you need to be a good returner of serve on faster courts because everyone can serve fast, the difference is always the return of serve, not the serve on faster surfaces.

Belmont Lad
Mar 31st, 2012, 06:54 PM
These hard court surfaces need to be made quicker, absolutely.

NashaMasha
Mar 31st, 2012, 06:54 PM
Does anybody want to watch "Wozniacki" vs "Radvanska" matches in QF, SF and Finals? Tennis schools will be growing innumerous number of new pathetic defensive players

If Sharapova, Venus, Serena, Kim retire, the Tv audience of WTA matches will drop in increadible number of times and there is nobody to substitute them

Kon.
Mar 31st, 2012, 06:56 PM
Yes, definitely.

I can see Radwanska winning the US Open hiting 3 winners in the final.

After today, I can totally see it happening.:help:

NashaMasha
Mar 31st, 2012, 07:01 PM
After today, I can totally see it happening.:help:

We still have Vika Azarenka to punish this pathetic girls , Vika is a defensive player , which can be agressive if needed and hit deep close to lines

She is an ultimate death for all this push-push no variety in play girls

goldenlox
Mar 31st, 2012, 07:01 PM
That Isner was in the IW final was fine in the US, but outside US tournament directors dont want a huge server taking out a Djokovic or Nadal
Wimbledon looks slowed down. The Djokovic - Nadal was played on the baseline, like any of their other matches
But whining about court speeds wont change it. These were normal outdoor hardcourts

NashaMasha
Mar 31st, 2012, 07:02 PM
After today, I can totally see it happening.:help:

We still have Vika Azarenka to punish this pathetic girls , Vika is a defensive player , which can be agressive if needed and hit deep close to lines

She is an ultimate death for all this push-push no variety in play girls

So in Slams Woz and Aga are still doomed to lose

Lunaris
Mar 31st, 2012, 07:44 PM
The thing is there are not that many girls who can construct points in order to overcome defensive players. There are many options how to do it if you know how to use the court to your advantage. And if defensive players are not able to affect their opponent's play in any way as many people here firmly believe it should not be that hard to do whatever you fucking want to to put defensive players in their place. But players like Martha have basically only one option and when it doesn't work they are lost. They just needs to step it up. It all depends on them afterall, doesn't it?

laurie
Mar 31st, 2012, 08:34 PM
The thing is there are not that many girls who can construct points in order to overcome defensive players. There are many options how to do it if you know how to use the court to your advantage. And if defensive players are not able to affect their opponent's play in any way as many people here firmly believe it should not be that hard to do whatever you fucking want to to put defensive players in their place. But players like Martha have basically only one option and when it doesn't work they are lost. They just needs to step it up. It all depends on them afterall, doesn't it?

You make an interesting observation. Of course, we know these kind of players get in your head. Sharapova was hitting good deep shots in the corners and Radwanska ran down everything and got it back. As far as I can see, tactically Maria did what she should have done in the match, but the pressure made her miss. She created opportunities and then didn't take them, what about the break point late in the 2nd set? Not taking the ball out of the air and letting it bounce in an awkward part of the court, losing the point and then getting more frustrated.

Many of Radwanka's 2nd serves were landing in the middle of the box. How an earth can Radwanksa win so many service games to love and not drop serve the whole match when some of those 2nd serves were landing in the middle of the box at 80mph?!

Clearly Sharapova didn't take the opportunities presented to her today and paid the price in the end.

But if the court was faster, would Radwanska get everything back over and over again?

Kon.
Mar 31st, 2012, 08:40 PM
We still have Vika Azarenka to punish this pathetic girls , Vika is a defensive player , which can be agressive if needed and hit deep close to lines

She is an ultimate death for all this push-push no variety in play girls

So in Slams Woz and Aga are still doomed to lose

I actually agree with you. Radwanska shouldn't be a player who wins slams:shrug:
But with Azarenka out by someone else and a not too difficult draw she could reach a slam final.
Still I can't picture her winning one, just no. But this is the wta we're talking about:lol: And I have to admit she's very consistent and has great variety which can trouble good players.

Wiggly
Mar 31st, 2012, 08:42 PM
The courts are slow and high bouncing.

Rest Maria!
Mar 31st, 2012, 08:44 PM
But if the court was faster, would Radwanska get everything back over and over again?
She wouldn't need to because Sharapova would hit more errors with less time to adjust her foot and hit strokes. Aga plays better on faster courts as well.:o

laurie
Mar 31st, 2012, 09:07 PM
She wouldn't need to because Sharapova would hit more errors with less time to adjust her foot and hit strokes. Aga plays better on faster courts as well.:o

You make faster courts sound like vinyl :lol:

Well I recall Kvitova took care of Radwanksa in Istanbul (which wasn't that fast anyway). If a talented agressive player doesn't make too many errors, Radwanska would be more vulnerable.

Rest Maria!
Mar 31st, 2012, 09:18 PM
Stambul courts were very slow last year. Petra won against Aga (or any other player at YEC) because her ability to redirect balls and creating angles is unbelievable, almost logic defying (at least when she's on). That's why I think she's the most talented player of the Generation Suck, and on top of what she already achieved has the biggest room for improvement.

NashaMasha
Mar 31st, 2012, 09:18 PM
You make faster courts sound like vinyl :lol:

Well I recall Kvitova took care of Radwanksa in Istanbul (which wasn't that fast anyway). If a talented agressive player doesn't make too many errors, Radwanska would be more vulnerable.
Nowadays we can hardly found 10 talented agressive players, among them great part are not in best physical shape , or playing up and down tennis (like Sharapova)

NashaMasha
Mar 31st, 2012, 09:21 PM
Stambul courts were very slow last year. Petra won against Aga (or any other player at YEC) because her ability to redirect balls and creating angles is unbelievable, almost logic defying (at least when she's on). That's why I think she's the most talented player of the Generation Suck, and on top of what she already achieved has the biggest room for improvement.

Aga's defense has improved since then significantly. In Miami Petra would not show anything more than Venus could

Rest Maria!
Mar 31st, 2012, 09:24 PM
Aga's defense has improved since then significantly. In Miami Petra would not show anything more than Venus could
It really hasn't. Watch match points in Radwanska-Zvonareva match, Aga's defense was great. Petra's game was just incredible.

Petronius
Mar 31st, 2012, 09:36 PM
You make faster courts sound like vinyl :lol:

Well I recall Kvitova took care of Radwanksa in Istanbul (which wasn't that fast anyway). If a talented agressive player doesn't make too many errors, Radwanska would be more vulnerable.

Exactly. The main reason Radwanska won is that Sharapova committed a ridiculous number of unforced errors. The most pathetic was that game late in the second set when she missed a smash, an easy forehand putaway and then another point. Even the Eurosport commentators were shocked.

As for that Istanbul match, there's an amazing point at 5:05, as it shows the huge contrast in styles: Petra relentlessly attacking, hits seven (!) backhands in a row (six cross-court) with Aga just pushing the ball back, forcing the agressive player to make that extra shot, but eventually losing. :drool:

BpKhyKBkl3w

laurie
Mar 31st, 2012, 10:05 PM
Exactly. The main reason Radwanska won is that Sharapova committed a ridiculous number of unforced errors. The most pathetic was that game late in the second set when she missed a smash, an easy forehand putaway and then another point. Even the Eurosport commentators were shocked.

As for that Istanbul match, there's an amazing point at 5:05, as it shows the huge contrast in styles: Petra relentlessly attacking, hits seven (!) backhands in a row (six cross-court) with Aga just pushing the ball back, forcing the agressive player to make that extra shot, but eventually losing. :drool:

BpKhyKBkl3w

That's why I love Petra Kvitova :bigclap:

Petronius
Mar 31st, 2012, 10:19 PM
That's why I love Petra Kvitova :bigclap:

:hi5:

Rest Maria!
Mar 31st, 2012, 10:23 PM
As for that Istanbul match, there's an amazing point at 5:05, as it shows the huge contrast in styles: Petra relentlessly attacking, hits seven (!) backhands in a row (six cross-court) with Aga just pushing the ball back, forcing the agressive player to make that extra shot, but eventually losing. :drool:
Wait, what would you do in such case? She couldn't redirect such hard ball as it would most likely end with an error, she couldn't hit back harder (nobody could), so retrieving was the only option.

Lunaris
Mar 31st, 2012, 10:24 PM
Laurie:
Martha played a few good points but most of the time her game is dreadfully one-dimensional.
In the end it is a fight between two players under the same conditions for both. Sure, if the courts were faster, power players would enjoy an advantage in offense, but as I wrote, if everything depends solely on them then they should have no problems to win. If they have they are simply not good enough and must work harder. On the other hand, it would be interesting to watch how they would cope with a faster court in defense. Even against Radwanska who hits a flat low bouncing ball could they be in trouble since many are not flawless movers.
This whole thing is much more complicated than it seems. Wimbledon serve festivals of the 90's were not that great either. Where is the talent in that?

Tenis Srbija
Mar 31st, 2012, 10:26 PM
Oh please, I can't watch all these UE's anymore :sobbing:

laurie
Mar 31st, 2012, 10:37 PM
Laurie:
Martha played a few good points but most of the time her game is dreadfully one-dimensional.
In the end it is a fight between two players under the same conditions for both. Sure, if the courts were faster, power players would enjoy an advantage in offense, but as I wrote, if everything depends solely on them then they should have no problems to win. If they have they are simply not good enough and must work harder. On the other hand, it would be interesting to watch how they would cope with a faster court in defense. Even against Radwanska who hits a flat low bouncing ball could they be in trouble since many are not flawless movers.
This whole thing is much more complicated than it seems. Wimbledon serve festivals of the 90's were not that great either. Where is the talent in that?

Was there serve festivals in womens matches on grass in the 1990s? I don't remember that.

But on a more serious level, the media have concentrated the minds on one or two matches at Wimbledon which wasn't a great match up. But the slowing down of the courts have deprived us of these kinds of incredible battles between the puncher and the counterpuncher:

8-MExu-72i0

ZbmaEtZeno8&feature=related

SV_Fan
Mar 31st, 2012, 11:13 PM
I think Wood Courts need to be brought back!

RenaSlam.
Mar 31st, 2012, 11:19 PM
I can't.

Ferg
Mar 31st, 2012, 11:25 PM
Not all of them, but certainly we need a much better balance between the two. The slowing down of US hardcourts and Wimbledon over the past few years has been absolutely sickening considering they're supposed to be among the fastest in the calender. (They still are, but not by that much...) The cut down on indoor events is a bad idea too. Paris was an absolute joy to watch, not these grind fests being carried out on both tours. We need more diversity, not having all the courts playing the exact same. People complain about the lack of diversity on the tour, look to the courts. Its killing the potential of many good ballstrikers.

Lunaris
Mar 31st, 2012, 11:36 PM
Womens matches no, but we all know it's the ATP what matters. And unless you want men and women to play Wimbledon on different surfaces you gotta live with how it is today.
You still get a puncher vs. counterpuncher nowadays. I could find even better highlights from two, three or four years ago.
Again, it's not just the surfaces, it's more complicated.

laurie
Mar 31st, 2012, 11:48 PM
Look forward to those highlights. Out of today's guys, Tsonga is the only player I would call old school, mixes up power with variety. Not into players like Soderling, he did well at Roland Garros but he has sligtly limited ability and his movement is not the best, not least his volleys are terrible. In fact I'm struggling to think of the "punchers" in the top 10. Giles Simon? Gael Monfils? Andy Murray? Rafael Nadal? Nicholas Almagro? I'm struggling here.

Hehehe - Looks like the ATP tour aint much different to the WTA tour :unsure:

NashaMasha
Apr 1st, 2012, 01:40 AM
I recommend everybody to check this article about tennis courts nowadays
http://www.fawcette.net/2012/02/hard-courts-fast-clay-slow-not-so-much-.html

Today's reality is a homogenization of tennis that reduces the variety of play and leads to clay-court-style baseline grinding dominating throughout the year, out side exceptions at London's AWC, Paris and a few sites on the Asian circuit.

WTa/ATP officials are stupid ducks to bury variable tennis

n1_and_uh_noone
Apr 1st, 2012, 01:57 AM
Maybe slow courts are making good ballstrikers turn into useless ballbashers in an attempt to blast winners through the courts? Or maybe fast courts are too easy to win on for those with natural power i.e. no point construction, one good shot wins you a point.

If nothing happens about it, it is fine, good players should be able to adjust. They can hit through anything if they have good technique and brains. However, it would be nice to see some faster courts on tour just for variety, and more specifically, different bounces.

chingching
Apr 1st, 2012, 03:09 AM
It would be a bad thing if the tour wasd less physical. If the women want equal prizemoney, they have to work equally hard. We dont want fat people winning tournaments again

NashaMasha
Apr 1st, 2012, 02:27 PM
Mardy Fish Joins Criticism of Slow Tennis Courts
"This surface is extremely slow. I would love just to have a couple tournaments that are quicker surfaces," Fish said. "It's not necessarily the surface, per se, but the balls. The balls get so big and so fluffy even after a warm-up that for an attacking, fast-court type player, it's extremely hard to play those guys. Sometimes you have to execute almost every shot. You have to execute big time to beat those guys playing on the slower surfaces.

"Indian Wells is extremely slow with the balls, especially at night when we play there. It's two different tournaments: during the day and during the night. Australia is extremely slow. Wimbledon's balls are unbelievably heavy. It's hard to find fast surfaces these days that I can get away with, and the first two that jump out are Montreal and Cincinnati. I don't think it was necessarily a coincidence of my results there, because I'm a fast court player. There's just not many surfaces like it anymore."
http://www.tennis.com/articles/templates/news.aspx?articleid=17032&zoneid=25

TennisFan66
Apr 1st, 2012, 02:35 PM
Despite what might be favoured here in GM, people out in the real world are not interested in watching a couple of guys serve to each other. Hence courts have been slowed down and balls made heavier. This aides rallies and not 'bam boom bang' tennis.

doujyr
Apr 1st, 2012, 02:49 PM
that is true for the men, but equally i wonder if people in the real world want to see a wta tour composed of nothing but pushers.

BH both wings
Apr 1st, 2012, 02:55 PM
that is true for the men, but equally i wonder if people in the real world want to see a wta tour composed of nothing but pushers.

Is it? There are still much more mindless ballbashers that pushers, and they still win all the slams ...

BuTtErFrEnA
Apr 1st, 2012, 02:57 PM
The slowed down the courts to please you folk because you were complaining about serve and volleyers, now you complain again. Enough!

correct...attackers were dominating and it was boring....now defense is dominating and it's boring :lol: i will say though that the problem is that they're slowing down EVERYTHING...there's no variety when you go to tournaments, even the indoor tournaments are getting slowed down...

KV
Apr 1st, 2012, 03:18 PM
Yes, time to speed up the courts.

nevetssllim
Apr 1st, 2012, 03:26 PM
correct...attackers were dominating and it was boring....now defense is dominating and it's boring :lol: i will say though that the problem is that they're slowing down EVERYTHING...there's no variety when you go to tournaments, even the indoor tournaments are getting slowed down...

I would say the clay-courts are faster now which adds to the surface homogeneity. I'd love to see some really, really fast, low-bouncing grass-courts and the revival of the European indoor season but at the same time (and I'm probably in the minority here!), I wouldn't mind seeing slower clay-courts just to add to the diversity.

Mary Cherry.
Apr 1st, 2012, 03:28 PM
This reminds me of a great tweet by Ivo Karlovic, he said in a few years he'll be a clay court specialist because clay will be the quickest surface :hysteric:


Personally, I just want a bit of variety. A 5+ hour final between Nolé & Rafa at Wimbledon is my idea of hell.

Beat
Apr 1st, 2012, 04:09 PM
By the way, it is interesting who has been at number the last few years beside Serena:

Jelena Jankovic
Dinara Safina
Caroline Wozniacki
Victoria Azarenka

yes, and it's also interesting who won the slams. :p

Matt01
Apr 1st, 2012, 04:16 PM
Does anybody want to watch "Wozniacki" vs "Radvanska" matches in QF, SF and Finals?


Hmm...yes?

StoneRose
Apr 1st, 2012, 04:16 PM
I like rallies so i'm fine with rather slow courts. However for variety a few faster courts don't hurt.

Irute
Apr 1st, 2012, 04:41 PM
I am with everyone who votes for variety. This would not put in advantage single style of play and would provide for different experiences. I think it would also give motivation to players to be more versatile.

LH2HBH
Apr 1st, 2012, 05:12 PM
Oh yes.

doomsday
Apr 1st, 2012, 05:25 PM
Hmm...yes?

You don't mean it.:lol:

TennisFan66
Apr 1st, 2012, 05:39 PM
You don't mean it.:lol:

I wonder if there ever will come a time, where it will be understood by this forum that there are people in this world, who doesn't give a rats arse about Maria Sharapova.

I wonder if there will also come a time, where it will be understood by this forum that there are people in this world, who actually prefers to watch tennis players who aren't just all about screaming loud and hitting the ball hard, but play a different style of tennis. Such as Caro and Aga.

doomsday
Apr 1st, 2012, 05:45 PM
I wonder if there ever will come a time, where it will be understood by this forum that there are people in this world, who doesn't give a rats arse about Maria Sharapova.

I wonder if there will also come a time, where it will be understood by this forum that there are people in this world, who actually prefers to watch tennis players who aren't just all about screaming loud and hitting the ball hard, but play a different style of tennis. Such as Caro and Aga.

And who talked about Maria Sharapova in here ? Beside the love I have for Maria is enough for all this people to hate her :lol:
Anyway I said this cause Matt stated many times that he wasn't even a fan of Caroline's game (or lack thereof) I don't know what game he is playing here :shrug:

n1_and_uh_noone
Apr 1st, 2012, 05:46 PM
I wonder if there ever will come a time, where it will be understood by this forum that there are people in this world, who doesn't give a rats arse about Maria Sharapova.

I wonder if there will also come a time, where it will be understood by this forum that there are people in this world, who actually prefers to watch tennis players who aren't just all about screaming loud and hitting the ball hard, but play a different style of tennis. Such as Caro and Aga.

I guess these people (the critics) never play matches themselves. When you are playing matches, you don't care if you are hitting clean winners or not. Mostly, it is about overcoming your opponent any which way (unless it is a beatdown), and you are relieved when you get easy points on serve/errors. In fact, opponents' errors make you feel better than your own winners, because your job is so much easier. I am sure Radwanska and Wozniacki would not mind hitting blazing winners left and right but

1. there is no need for it in such matches
2. they have other strengths and lets face it, only the very strongest can pulverize every single ball (I am sure everyone regards this last as a critical failing)

TennisFan66
Apr 1st, 2012, 05:55 PM
Does anybody want to watch "Wozniacki" vs "Radvanska" matches in QF, SF and Finals? Tennis schools will be growing innumerous number of new pathetic defensive players

And who talked about Maria Sharapova in here ? Beside the love I have for Maria is enough for all this people to hate her :lol:
Anyway I said this cause Matt stated many times that he wasn't even a fan of Caroline's game (or lack thereof) I don't know what game he is playing here :shrug:

Matt answered a question from another Maria Sharapova fan and you are a Maria Sharapova fan ... hence the Sharapova angle.

Learn to accept not everyone is in love with Sharapova and not every tennis follower prefers that particular game style, nor her personality for that matter .. TIA.

doomsday
Apr 1st, 2012, 05:59 PM
Matt answered a question from another Maria Sharapova fan and you are a Maria Sharapova fan ... hence the Sharapova angle.

Learn to accept not everyone is in love with Sharapova and not every tennis follower prefers that particular game style, nor her personality for that matter .. TIA.

:facepalm: Again this has nothing to do with Sharapova. I know why I said this, Matt isn't fond of Woz's game.

TennisFan66
Apr 1st, 2012, 06:08 PM
:facepalm: Again this has nothing to do with Sharapova. I know why I said this, Matt isn't fond of Woz's game.

Yes it does. It starts with a Sharapova fan trying to insult other players (as seen so many many times from this fan group) and you - another Sharapova fan - quickly offering your 'support' against the 'pathetic pushers'.

I remember Matt from many a Caro thread and I've never seen him ever post anything disrespectful nor insulting. If he likes her game or not is not for you nor me to decide. Why do you have to jump on and question a poster, because someone dares to express another preference in tennis than you hold yourself?

doomsday
Apr 1st, 2012, 06:23 PM
Yes it does. It starts with a Sharapova fan trying to insult other players (as seen so many many times from this fan group) and you - another Sharapova fan - quickly offering your 'support' against the 'pathetic pushers'.

I remember Matt from many a Caro thread and I've never seen him ever post anything disrespectful nor insulting. If he likes her game or not is not for you nor me to decide. Why do you have to jump on and question a poster, because someone dares to express another preference in tennis than you hold yourself?

Because he doesn't mean it, how many times do I have to say this ? Matt was a Henin fan so I already know that he doesn't like ball bashing tennis and I'm cool with it.

Craig.
Apr 1st, 2012, 06:32 PM
I wonder if there ever will come a time, where it will be understood by this forum that there are people in this world, who doesn't give a rats arse about Maria Sharapova.

I wonder if there will also come a time, where it will be understood by this forum that there are people in this world, who actually prefers to watch tennis players who aren't just all about screaming loud and hitting the ball hard, but play a different style of tennis. Such as Caro and Aga.

:lol: That actually had nothing to do with Sharapova. YOU made it about Sharapova.

Matt01
Apr 1st, 2012, 07:03 PM
Because he doesn't mean it, how many times do I have to say this ? Matt was a Henin fan so I already know that he doesn't like ball bashing tennis and I'm cool with it.


My point is that there people who prefer a Radwanska vs. Caro match over a, let's say, Venus vs. Maria match. And yes I'm one of those people even though there are some other players who I like more to watch than Caro or Aga.

"Ballbashing" is not necesarily a better gamestyle than "pushing" and if you weren't such an obsessed Maria fan you would have argued like me in this thread instead of trying to make a cheap shot against me. Well, you failed anyway so it's all good. :)

Matt01
Apr 1st, 2012, 07:04 PM
:lol: That actually had nothing to do with Sharapova. YOU made it about Sharapova.


Sharapova is irrelevant. She can't win any finals these days anyway ;)

jj74
Apr 1st, 2012, 07:33 PM
Not that i really like any of those styles, but between a pusher and a brainless ballbasher i prefer the first by far. At least in a match between pushers you watch tennis, in a match between ballbashers you only watch a winner or an unforced error after a couple of hits over the net. And when one of the ballbashers is not at her best the result is always an embarrasing score (like a lot of GS finals lately)

In my opinion, the really good is in between, someone who is able to balance UE and winners

Craig.
Apr 1st, 2012, 07:55 PM
Sharapova is irrelevant. She can't win any finals these days anyway ;)

Um, okay?

NashaMasha
Apr 1st, 2012, 08:10 PM
Sharapova is irrelevant. She can't win any finals these days anyway ;)

Sampras today will be also not a 14 times Grand Slam Champion and will be losing Nadal and Djokovich in finals
Will you call him irrelevant?


I am sure that ATP /WTA should have slow and very fast hard courts on different tournaments and there will be no prepotency of one defensive style in tennis as it is now

Wimbledon should be on fast slippery grass , USO on very fast hard court(today medium) , one the IW/Miami courts should have significantly quicker surface

ATP/WTA should find a balance between quick and slow courts , between courts with high bounce and low

Today we have homogeneous slow tennis courts in favour , which give clear advantage only for one type of players

Matt01
Apr 1st, 2012, 08:54 PM
Wimbledon should be on fast slippery grass , USO on very fast hard court(today medium) , one the IW/Miami courts should have significantly quicker surface


Yes, every court in world the court should be on a lightening quick surface. :o
Do you have anything to say about the clay courts of e.g. Madrid or RG which have been speeded up in the last years?

TennisFan66
Apr 1st, 2012, 09:15 PM
Yes, every court in world the court should be on a lightening quick surface. :o
Do you have anything to say about the clay courts of e.g. Madrid or RG which have been speeded up in the last years?

and smaller (faster) balls used at RG ;)

NashaMasha
Apr 1st, 2012, 09:20 PM
Yes, every court in world the court should be on a lightening quick surface. :o
Do you have anything to say about the clay courts of e.g. Madrid or RG which have been speeded up in the last years?

TV channels are not going to show on line 14 hour matches :) FOr RG there are no complaints from the players, except that speed on different courts differ much

Matt01
Apr 1st, 2012, 09:26 PM
TV channels are not going to show on line 14 hour matches :) FOr RG there are no complaints from the players, except that speed on different courts differ much


I see. :rolleyes:

Corswandt
Apr 1st, 2012, 09:58 PM
putting aside petty loyalties, i can't believe the majority of the public want to watch pushers and grinders. this is going to be bad, very bad. people will vote with their feet and remote controls.

You should because it's true. The majority of the public can't get enough of long rallies.

Martha played a few good points but most of the time her game is dreadfully one-dimensional.

And Agatha's isn't?

In the end it is a fight between two players under the same conditions for both. Sure, if the courts were faster, power players would enjoy an advantage in offense, but as I wrote, if everything depends solely on them then they should have no problems to win. If they have they are simply not good enough and must work harder. On the other hand, it would be interesting to watch how they would cope with a faster court in defense. Even against Radwanska who hits a flat low bouncing ball could they be in trouble since many are not flawless movers.
This whole thing is much more complicated than it seems. Wimbledon serve festivals of the 90's were not that great either. Where is the talent in that?

On a faster court, the shotmakers wouldn't play defense and their footwork wouldn't be tested since they would be able to play first strike tennis and there would be very few rallies. Doesn't mean they'd win all the time; just that they wouldn't have to rally to win every single point.

Anyway, yesterday's debacle just showed that the slowness of playing surfaces is making pure, 100% one-dimensional retrieving a viable strategy to win even the biggest titles.

The slowing down of playing surfaces isn't irreversible; in 2010 Paris Bercy set up old skool fast indoors courts and was immediately rewarded with several classics on the later rounds. But of course the Big Four complained, and since Paris Bercy has suffered a lot in recent years from the Big Four's reluctance to play there, the organizers had to relent and in 2011 the courts played slower than ever.

I'd place a Vegas bet that the Miami organizers won't draw any lessons from what took place in the WTA final but instead lament that Rafito's withdrawal deprived spectators of another RafaNole pushfest epic, leaving them with an ugly, poorly played, anticlimactic ATP final, and slow down the courts even further to get Nadal to the final next year.

So I fear that things will get worse before they get any better.

Utterchaos
Apr 1st, 2012, 10:36 PM
Yes, every court in world the court should be on a lightening quick surface. :o
Do you have anything to say about the clay courts of e.g. Madrid or RG which have been speeded up in the last years?

RG being sped up is also bad. It should be slowed back down. The complaint is that every court is the same these days. Wimbledon is traditionally a fast surface, encouraging attacking play - that's been slowed down. Ditto for USO. It's ridiculous how surfaces these days encourage defensive tennis only.

Lunaris
Apr 1st, 2012, 11:33 PM
And Agatha's isn't?
Yes, not as much as say Woz, though.
But for my purposes in this thread it is irrelevant.
Anyway, yesterday's debacle just showed that the slowness of playing surfaces is making pure, 100% one-dimensional retrieving a viable strategy to win even the biggest titles. Yes, but why? Because of slow courts or because power players don't have enough variety to use different tactics and win? People complain about mindless retrieving, which is ok. But for sake of some equality they should complain about one-dimensional power players too. Woz and Radwanska get all the hate, but they just take what others offer them. As I wrote, it's time to step it up, despite slow courts or balls.
I'd place a Vegas bet that the Miami organizers won't draw any lessons from what took place in the WTA final but instead lament that Rafito's withdrawal deprived spectators of another RafaNole pushfest epic, leaving them with an ugly, poorly played, anticlimactic ATP final, and slow down the courts even further to get Nadal to the final next year.

So I fear that things will get worse before they get any better.Sure. As mentioned, causal viewers like long rallies. And they like their tennis celebrities in latter tournament stages playing long matches. Tournament organizers just want to please them and get as much money from them as possible. Players themselves don't mind too much, they are used to play from the baseline afterall.
Nadal is injured so even further slowing down the courts would not help him in this case. Anyway, since WTA is hardly relevant there is indeed no reason to speed up the courts in Miami, or anywhere else for that matter.

If you guys are so annoyed why don't you write some angry letters directly to tournament organizers? Perhaps if you were sufficiently productive and persuasive they would consider your pleas for faster courts.

Spring Pools
Apr 2nd, 2012, 12:58 AM
I think there needs to be a variety. Have some super slow courts, some super fast courts, some high bounce, some low bounce, some medium pace, some medium bounce etc. But make sure there is balance.

Rest Maria!
Apr 2nd, 2012, 09:27 AM
Sure. As mentioned, causal viewers like long rallies.
Yeah, after watching men's final I have to say long rallies with 20+ shots were super entertaining, Murray and Djokovic possess better court coverage than Radwanska and better shotmaking than Sharapova and these long rallies were like playing chess when both of them looked for opening. Surely they were glued to the baseline, nonetheless is is great to watch (it was more fun than Isner/Federer final which I guess would benefit from a faster surface).

The courts were slowed for the sake of men's game, there are a couple of fast HC tournaments left (Dubai, Cincinatti, Montreal), I think speeding up Wimbledon and either USO or AO would be great for variety though.

Corswandt
Apr 2nd, 2012, 09:47 AM
Reading some of the posts upthread and I wasn't too surprised to find the old canard, mostly peddled by Action Jackson at MTF, of clay courts being "sped up". Differences in speed and bounce on red clay courts are imperceptible; I mean, clay is clay. You can't make it play like old skool carpet. It's just that clay is the surface that is influenced the most by different weather conditions.

Yes, but why? Because of slow courts or because power players don't have enough variety to use different tactics and win? People complain about mindless retrieving, which is ok. But for sake of some equality they should complain about one-dimensional power players too. Woz and Radwanska get all the hate, but they just take what others offer them. As I wrote, it's time to step it up, despite slow courts or balls.

There will be no incentive to play a multidimensional game for as long as just about all courts on Tour play more or less the same (very slow, high bouncing hardcourt) and baseline bumrooting is the simplest and most rewarding game plan regardless of the relative strengths and weaknesses of the players involved. Shotmakers are more likely to become overly cautious and get themselves dragged into playing neutral rallies than say move forward more often (To do what? To get passed time and again?).

If you guys are so annoyed why don't you write some angry letters directly to tournament organizers? Perhaps if you were sufficiently productive and persuasive they would consider your pleas for faster courts.

TDs aren't stupid; they know full well that people who care enough about this to write long letters of protest are an irrelevant minority that they can safely afford to disregard.

Not even heckling or booing during a particularly excruciating pushathon would work; it goes against tennis etiquette, it wouldn't be understood by other people, and it would lead to the hecklers getting swiftly ejected and most likely banned from attending any tournament.

angelabarnes38
May 21st, 2012, 12:10 PM
I agree that tennis surfaces (http://www.plexipave.com/tennis/plexicushion.html) all around the world have slowed down, but did you catch the tournament in Dubai this weekend? Those were some of the fastest I've seen in recent memory.

TheBoiledEgg
May 21st, 2012, 12:14 PM
As long as Nadull/Djoker are around they arent speeding jack-shit up

madmax
May 21st, 2012, 12:19 PM
As long as Nadull/Djoker are around they arent speeding jack-shit up

sadly...right now both of them are in the middle of the second set and they are grinding each other for 2 hours already:facepalm:...