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tennisbum79
Mar 27th, 2012, 06:51 PM
I have been thinking about this for awhile and decided to give it a try to day.

I argue that the generation of Venus-Serena-Kim-Henin-Capriati-Maria-Davenport-Hingis and their supporting cast is the greatest generation of tennis.
This is modeled after the Greatest Generation in the USA, which the Generation of World War II and they contribution to the United States progress in the 2nd half of the 20th century.

Yes, I am aware, it is pretentious to compare tennis players to World War II soldiers who sacrificed themselves ans gave so much for their country, so let keep it in tennis universe.

What was tennis before, its perception and what it has become.



Please contribute.
This is a serious discussion thread.
If you wish not to participate, that is OK, but please refrain from trying to derail the thread.




I want to make the case that Venus-Serena-Kim-Henin-Capriati-Maria-Davenport-Hingis-Dementiava-Myskina-Pierce-Mauresmo-Kuznetsova can be named The Greatest Generation Of Tennis

This is the generation that took tennis from country club in the west and privileged party member in the east, to a truly popular sport in the world.
This generation includes the Russian Revolution led by Myskina, Dementieva, Saharpova, Kuztnesova…, too numerous to list all.


This era also oversaw the emergence of small countries that produced outstanding talents, Kim and Justine in Belgium, Ana and Jelena in Serbia, both not known for tennis talent in the past

Serbia is the most remarkable story, for just few years, the country had gone an harrowing experience of war and violence, and yet these players came out of that situation and still excelled in this sport



In the USA, Venus and Serena not only show the world a different face of the sport, but they democratize just by being seen on Center Court in Wimbledon, Rod Laver Arena, Court Central at Roland Garros and Arthur Ashe Stadium.

Suddenly girls in Harlem, The Bronx and other areas traditionally on the other side of the track in tennis terms, now find tennis accessible, not necessary because the local public park has added new tennis courts, but by identification with the several players on the WTA tour


During this era, Tennis became truly democratized, expanding in eastern and central Europe, Asia.

Today, girls in India, Taiwan, China, Thailand etc.. think they truly have a chance to hoist a Wimbledon trophy someday.
This kind of dream is no longer reserved for others as it was case 25-30 years back


Even though Africa, at the exception of South Africa and Zimbabwe has not produced a competitive player yet, it is not for lack of trying. venus, Serena, maria are all popular in capital cities of Africa; of course football is still king, but girls are really not in football


One of the refreshing development is that the time has passed where the only players from Eastern Europe were those who defected to the west seeking political asylum. Those countries now develop their own home grown talents


This is truly the Greatest Generation.

tennisbum79
Mar 27th, 2012, 07:18 PM
The original Greatest Generation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greatest_Generation

jameshazza
Mar 27th, 2012, 07:20 PM
This, undoubtedly the greatest generation. The question is, when did that era truly end? Henin's retirement?

JRena
Mar 27th, 2012, 07:22 PM
I'd say it will end when the William Sisters retire.

tennisbum79
Mar 27th, 2012, 07:23 PM
This, undoubtedly the greatest generation. The question is, when did that era truly end? Henin's retirement?
When the last of Venus-Kim-Serena retire.

Maria will close the door for good.

Galang
Mar 27th, 2012, 07:26 PM
Ana-Jelena-Dinara-Caro

tennisbum79
Mar 27th, 2012, 07:29 PM
Ana-Jelena-Dinara-Caro
Yes, the first 3, I am not sure Caro is part of this generation.

Tenis Srbija
Mar 27th, 2012, 07:45 PM
Serbia had big champions even before the war. Monica Seles is Serbian, Slobodan Živojinović also... Please, don't make it like we are walking on the streets in search for foud, while guns are blazing all over the place :rolleyes:

atominside
Mar 27th, 2012, 07:46 PM
I agree :inlove:

tennisbum79
Mar 27th, 2012, 08:02 PM
Serbia had big champions even before the war. Monica Seles is Serbian, Slobodan Živojinović also... Please, don't make it like we are walking on the streets in search for foud, while guns are blazing all over the place :rolleyes:
That is not what I meant. I thought I was actually poaying tribute to Serbian people dermination and drive.
I ahve heard story about Ana circumstances , and just last Sunday on US biggest new magazine show, Novak Djokovic gwa profiled and he alluded to difficulties of training as little boy during the war.

That was my intent, I did not mean to demean Serbia and its people and I don't think that what I did.


As for Monica, and people in her circumsnatnces, I made the point clearly that, no longer, would east european defect to the west just to have a career in tennis.
I just want conclude by saying you need to read my post very carefully, you are not giving it a faire read.

And please contribute, if you can to the main topic.

Tenis Srbija
Mar 27th, 2012, 08:04 PM
That is not what I meant. I thought I was actually poaying tribute to Serbian people dermination and drive.
I ahve heard story about Ana circumstances , and just last Sunday on US biggest new magazine show, Novak Djokovic gwa profiled and he alluded to difficulties of training as little boy during the war.

That was my intent, I did not mean to demean Serbia and its people and I don't think that what I did.

Oh, the "pool training" :spit: Don't talk about that too please. It's so exagerated. Ana actually trained in Switzerland for most of her serious training life. Jelena in Florida, Novak was all over Europe. So those circumstances weren't that bad ;)

Serbian people do have "defiance" that makes us good at sports, but don't make it look like we were tortured in wars for years. You have a point, but enough with the war... Serbia is a great and relaxed place. Come to Belgrade and you will see what I'm talking about :wave:

tennisbum79
Mar 27th, 2012, 08:18 PM
Oh, the "pool training" :spit: Don't talk about that too please. It's so exagerated. Ana actually trained in Switzerland for most of her serious training life. Jelena in Florida, Novak was all over Europe. So those circumstances weren't that bad ;)

Serbian people do have "defiance" that makes us good at sports, but don't make it look like we were tortured in wars for years. You have a point, but enough with the war... Serbia is a great and relaxed place. Come to Belgrade and you will see what I'm talking about :wave:
I don't want to make this about Serbia.
I was impressed with Novak interview on "60 miniutes" as he describes the circumstances during thetime he was gowing up and dreaming to be a tennis player.
So even if we discount the level of suffering and hardship, for a small country like Serbia, it is still a major accomplishment to Have Ana and Jelea thrive at high level in the WTA.
That is my point.

Now, can you contribute to the main topic of the thread? AndI'll come and visit Serbia?

Tenis Srbija
Mar 27th, 2012, 08:27 PM
I don't want to make this about Serbia.
I was impressed with Novak interview on "60 miniutes" as he describes the circumstances during thetime he was gowing up and dreaming to be a tennis player.
So even if we discount the level of suffering and hardship, for a small country like Serbia, it is still a major accomplishment to Have Ana and Jelea thrive at high level in the WTA.
That is my point.

Now, can contribute to the main topic of the thread?

"Serbia is the most remarkable story, for just few years, the country had gone an harrowing experience of war and violence, and yet these players came out of that situation and still excelled in this sport."

So, that what you wrote. When someone reads that it turns out that we have been bashed and on and on and on. So, I tell you it's not the case. It's exagerated. Fact. And I added that we had big champions in the past too, so it's not like Ana and Jelena "showed tennis to Serbia". Several Top 100 players (Nacuk, Jecmenica, SELEŠ...). I just have to correct you, since this a good topic.

Also I don't think the generation you named took the tennis out of the country clubs and the West. There were some great Romanians before, Bulgarians and once again Monika Seleš, born in Novi Sad (Serbia). Serena-Justine-Venus-Amelie-The Russians have popularized this sports. It's very important to note that the beautiful Russians, especially Maria and Kournikova, are one of the reasons why this sport has "thrived". Beauty in womens sport is very important... And on and on and on...they aren't the greatest, but are a part of the most competitive time in tennis! ;)

tennisbum79
Mar 27th, 2012, 08:35 PM
"Serbia is the most remarkable story, for just few years, the country had gone an harrowing experience of war and violence, and yet these players came out of that situation and still excelled in this sport."

So, that what you wrote. When someone reads that it turns out that we have been bashed and on and on and on. So, I tell you it's not the case. It's exagerated. Fact. And I added that we had big champions in the past too, so it's not like Ana and Jelena "showed tennis to Serbia". Several Top 100 players (Nacuk, Jecmenica, SELEŠ...). I just have to correct you, since this a good topic.

Also I don't think the generation you named took the tennis out of the country clubs and the West. There were some great Romanians before, Bulgarians and once again Monika Seleš, born in Novi Sad (Serbia). Serena-Justine-Venus-Amelie-The Russians have popularized this sports. It's very important to note that the beautiful Russians, especially Maria and Kournikova, are one of the reasons why this sport has "thrived". Beauty in womens sport is very important... And on and on and on...they aren't the greatest, but are a part of the most competitive time in tennis! ;)
Sorry, they are part of generation of tennis players who are know all over the world.
This is not about Serbia, it is about Serbia's contribution to the Greatest Gneration. I am not trying to argue with you that Serbia did not have great players in the past, but we can agree they did not have the notoriety of being part of ageneration like the one I describe.
Again, I am not trying to disparage Serbia. I wish you could see Novak's interview


Please, please, can we get back to the main topic?

Tenis Srbija
Mar 27th, 2012, 08:43 PM
Sorry, they are part of generation of tennis players who are know all over the world.
This is not about Serbia, it is about Serbia's contribution to the Greatest Gneration. I am not trying to argue with you that Serbia did not have great players in the past, but we can agree they did not have the notoriety of being part of ageneration like the one I describe.
Again, I am not trying to disparage Serbia. I wish you could see Novak's interview


Please, please, can we get back to the main topic?

Second part of my post is about the topic :scratch:

thrust
Mar 27th, 2012, 08:53 PM
This, undoubtedly the greatest generation. The question is, when did that era truly end? Henin's retirement?

YES, until KIM CAME BACK. Without Kim or Justine playing the Williams sisters had no real competition when they were not injured. Even when Justine came back at about 60% of her best, she was still better than the younger players on tour. Jelena, Ana, Dinara, Elena had pretty much passed their prime when Justine returned.

AlwaysGraf
Mar 27th, 2012, 09:18 PM
Graf Seles Sabatini Novotna Sanchez era was the best generation

tennisbum79
Mar 27th, 2012, 10:11 PM
Graf Seles Sabatini Novotna Sanchez era was the best generation
Their reach was very limited.

You did not read my opening argument carefully.

This Greatest Generation has far reaching impact on tennis around the world, on all continents, than any before them.

They have diversity in personality, race, country, culture and reach inspire many more girls around the world.
They are not blend to fit the traditional expectation of the traditional tennis, and for that they were able to reach a mode diverse demographic.




.

tennisbum79
Mar 27th, 2012, 10:13 PM
I know there several posters here from different countries and culture, I am looking how this generation impacted tennis where you live.

StoneRose
Mar 27th, 2012, 11:14 PM
I agree that the generation you describe had the biggest impact, tennis became more of a mondial sport in this era. But this was not necessarily due to that generation .And it doesn't mean this was best generation and that's what the post title suggests on the side. Best were Graf,Navratilova in that order imo.

edificio
Mar 27th, 2012, 11:27 PM
Serbia had big champions even before the war. Monica Seles is Serbian, Slobodan Živojinović also... Please, don't make it like we are walking on the streets in search for foud, while guns are blazing all over the place :rolleyes:

Oh my goodness. Haven't thought of him for ages.

tennisbum79
Mar 28th, 2012, 12:03 AM
I agree that the generation you describe had the biggest impact, tennis became more of a mondial sport in this era. But this was not necessarily due to that generation .And it doesn't mean this was best generation and that's what the post title suggests on the side. Best were Graf,Navratilova in that order imo.
For me, the participatory democratization, the number of players known all over the world , not just Europe and North America, the diversity of the players themselves and their sheer number have more weight than a 2 or 3 players cut form the same cloth.

Those players, Graf generation, regardless of how good they were, did not affect change. They had no other interest outside tennis, therefore has less exposure.

On the other hand, prime-time women final started with this generation, with Venus-Serena playing such first final. This did wonder to make tennis available to middle class family and their kids.

Equal prize money for both genders was enacted with this generation, although the fight started with BJK, someone had to keep pushing, and they got it done.
Graf was a great player, but was never engaged as far I know.

This generation, collectively and individually has done that. In addition to promotion and charity events organized by WTA, some top players have their own charity around in their countries and travel abroad to get involved in charitable event because they are known as tennis players.

Those were unheard of in Graf generation.

Tenis Srbija
Mar 28th, 2012, 12:08 AM
Oh my goodness. Haven't thought of him for ages.

No1 in doubles, Top 20 in singles. I think he played Wimbledon SF :scratch:
I just love the story about his match vs McEnroe, when American started fighting with the umpire and Slobodan went to the bench, sat down and started eating a sandwich :lol:

Tenis Srbija
Mar 28th, 2012, 12:12 AM
Their reach was very limited.

You did not read my opening argument carefully.

This Greatest Generation has far reaching impact on tennis around the world, on all continents, than any before them.

They have diversity in personality, race, country, culture and reach inspire many more girls around the world.
They are not blend to fit the traditional expectation of the traditional tennis, and for that they were able to reach a mode diverse demographic.




.

Well in their time TV coverage and internet weren't expanded as nowadays. That's a big thing when it comes to world wide impact...

I know there several posters here from different countries and culture, I am looking how this generation impacted tennis where you live.

In Serbia biggest thrive of tennis was when Jelena and Ana started winning big tournaments and got to No1. Thats expected... Everyone was crazy about tennis these days, like they are now 'cause of Djokovic. But when Davenport-Williams-Capriati-Clijsters-Henin were dominating it wasn't the case...

edificio
Mar 28th, 2012, 12:20 AM
No1 in doubles, Top 20 in singles. I think he played Wimbledon SF :scratch:
I just love the story about his match vs McEnroe, when American started fighting with the umpire and Slobodan went to the bench, sat down and started eating a sandwich :lol:

:lol: Wise move.

Can't believe he had to pay ransom for his son. (Your post made me read up on what he's been doing.)

Tenis Srbija
Mar 28th, 2012, 12:23 AM
:lol: Wise move.

Can't believe he had to pay ransom for his son. (Your post made me read up on what he's been doing.)

His mother was once banned from entering the plane to London 'cause she had roast pork in her bag, Slobodan asked her to bring him :lol:
Yup, he did. He is married to a most famous singer in the ex SFRJ.

tennisbum79
Mar 28th, 2012, 12:25 AM
In Serbia biggest thrive of tennis was when Jelena and Ana started winning big tournaments and got to No1. Thats expected... Everyone was crazy about tennis these days, like they are now 'cause of Djokovic. But when Davenport-Williams-Capriati-Clijsters-Henin were dominating it wasn't the case...
That is makes my case.
The diversity of the generation brought in different parts of the world, each player doing her part where she is more effective as ambassador for the sport.

Those who have appeal beyond their country pull crowd from those countries. I heard Maria is very popular in Asia.

The Russians contingent did their part.

Tenis Srbija
Mar 28th, 2012, 12:29 AM
That is makes my case.
The diversity of the generation brought in different parts of the world, each player doing her part where she is more effective as ambassador for the sport.

Those who have appeal beyond their country pull crowd from those countries. I heard Maria is very popular in Asia.

The Russians contingent did their part.

Yeah, but I don't think that thrive of tennis in Serbia had anything to do with Davenport-Williams-Capriati-Belgians. These days people in Serbia were tennis dumbs.
I think that the generation has nothing to do with tennis thrive in most of the world, it's mostly based on theirs players. Mirza is a reason for that in India, Janković&Ivanović in Serbia, Iva Majoli for Croatia, Azarenka is for sure in Belarus...and so on.

P.S. Every world famous and beatiful athlete is big in Asia :lol:

Dan_Doe
Mar 28th, 2012, 12:36 AM
I'd say their era truly ended when the belgians took their time off (2007-2008). After that some new girls came around and slowly took over. Nowadays we don't see Serena, Venus or Kim too often.

pov
Mar 28th, 2012, 01:51 AM
don't make it look like we were tortured in wars for years.
According to written history Serbians were tortured in wars for years.

Tenis Srbija
Mar 28th, 2012, 02:50 AM
According to written history Serbians were tortured in wars for years.

Yup, but I don't think that 500 years under the Turks did have a big impact on Ana, Jelena, Nole, etc... :scratch:

Our problem were the sanctions by the UN, as for war we were bombed for like 80 days, but it's not like Belgrade was totally and utterly destroyed. Not even close. I survived it and I hold no traumas, dunno why they would. :wavey:

bulava
Mar 28th, 2012, 08:36 AM
I argue that the generation of Venus-Serena-Kim-Henin-Capriati-Maria-Davenport-Hingis and their supporting cast is the greatest generation of tennis.

Not really. I think Steffi Graf, Monica Seles et al laid the firm foundation as the Greatest Generation Of All Time aka #GGOAT :p In style quotient, I simply loved Gabriela Sabatini (not crush!).

I really wish to see the 'topper' of the current creamy talent gunning for the Graf's Golden Slam stupendous achievement. Is that possible? 75% NO :tape:

tennisbum79
Mar 31st, 2012, 06:23 AM
Not really. I think Steffi Graf, Monica Seles et al laid the firm foundation as the Greatest Generation Of All Time aka #GGOAT :p In style quotient, I simply loved Gabriela Sabatini (not crush!).

I really wish to see the 'topper' of the current creamy talent gunning for the Graf's Golden Slam stupendous achievement. Is that possible? 75% NO :tape:
You missed the point of the OP.

This is NOT about an individual players and how they mesmerized you on the court.

This is about a generation, a group of women as collective took tennis to all corner of the world.
There are never been a group as diverse as this one, in term countries, races and culture; and because of that their reach is much further generation before them.

Although the work was started before this generation, they continue and completed the fight for equal prize.
The prime time women final started with this generation, bringing tennis to people who would normally watch tennis at that time.
It also help propel WTA as true equal partner with the ATP.


By their diversity on race , culture and country they have given hope to many girls around world, from any country, that they can aspire to be like them too.
This was never the case before this generation.

tennisbum79
Mar 31st, 2012, 06:32 AM
This could have been such an interesting discussion, but Tenis Srbija's obsession with Serbia effectively derails the thread.

He saw disparaging of Serbia where there was none, so concerned he was about Serbia being portrayed in a bad light that he went out of his way to almost dismiss any of the personal experience of the Serbian players because they contain story of hardship during their early years In Serbia

He then went on to focus the discussion on a Serbian male player, from years ago, effectively completing the hijacking of the thread.




Hope posters can resume the discussion focusing the original topic.

binky-GOAT
Mar 31st, 2012, 06:33 AM
In the recent future, there will be a new "greatest generation". The cycle will never end.

But we can be glad it won't be any of Azarenka, Wozniacki, Kvitova, Radwansa etc :tape:

ranfurly
Mar 31st, 2012, 07:29 AM
Good choice of Topic.

I am more or less to represent a divinity of players before the generation however tennisbum.

I would be more inclined to express the view that whilst this generation you speak of (I happen to mostly agree) has been the consistent and driving force of generating exposure internationally to where otherwise, without the players you have mentioned would not have been.

Whilst that generation of players set the concrete to what Womens Tennis has come about today, I believe that it was catalytic in it's processes, because a generation before already had laid the first stones.

I'm talking about, Navratilova, Evert, Graf, even Billie Jean King, names which are unanimous with people , and yet may not have necessacarily seen play, but we know of them for the longevity, greatness, acheivments and virtues.

It's wonderful that within those 15-20 years, we had the space of or arguably 4 of the greatest female players, and to which, really put W omens Tennis into the limelight and across the globe on our screens.

They started a path for which the generation next, continues to build.

The likes of Seles, a player whom bought an attacking game of both sides, players such as Mary Pierce, eye catching, beautiful and a eire of elegance recreating femininity and considerable social decorum , where playing tennis, you could still be athletic, and hold feminine couture.

You had Kournikova, which I would suggest probably was one of the greatest assets that the Womens Tennis has ever owned, in terms of popularity, her sex appeal made international contributions, Men wanted to see her, women wanted to be like her, beauty in sport, Sharapova has also shined in on this light (albeit with better results) and paved the way for other Russian Women to join in the pack race of being successful on the court, but also internationally and around the world for a surge of young females to pick up the racquet.

Hingis, smashing records at such a young age, led to exposure, at the time, touted as potentially the greatest female to ever hold a raquet.

The Williams Sisters, from destitute beginnings, racial barriers to be the greatest in the game, allowing hundreds of Kids to pick up the raquet and creating an exposure into the viewing rooms of countless american homes.

It's mesmorizing, that many of these girls all have had a part in some shape or form which has given Womens Tennis defined legitimacy and exposure.

bulava
Mar 31st, 2012, 09:26 AM
You missed the point of the OP.
This is NOT about an individual players and how they mesmerized you on the court.

No, I haven't. I said Steffi Graf, Monica Seles et al laid the firm foundation!

Although the work was started before this generation, they continue and completed the fight for equal prize.

That was my point :)

It also help propel WTA as true equal partner with the ATP.
Not yet :tape: To achieve ATP level (golden trio), WTA needs at least 4-6 power players such as Azarenka et al who continuously outdo each other and win slams. Nevertheless, I'm happy because I never saw such high levels of power play in the WTA tournaments...

bulava
Mar 31st, 2012, 09:29 AM
In the recent future, there will be a new "greatest generation". The cycle will never end.
Quite true. But it could happen if and only if when the present generation shatter records, consistently :)

But we can be glad it won't be any of Azarenka, Wozniacki, Kvitova, Radwansa etc :tape:
Sam Stosur too? :tape:

tennisbum79
Mar 31st, 2012, 12:16 PM
In the recent future, there will be a new "greatest generation". The cycle will never end.

Quite true. But it could happen if and only if when the present generation shatter records, consistently :)

:tape:


We'll have that discussion if and when it happens.

Asadinator make it sound as if it is a routine happening in history.
NO, it isn't.
It will be awhile before we have another greatest generation of Americans like those of WWII.


When these kind of events happens, historians take notice and mark it as milestone.
These generation will deservingly get the attention of historians, tennis historians or otherwise; for bringing tennis to all 4 corners of the world.

binky-GOAT
Mar 31st, 2012, 12:39 PM
If you think about it, no player has excelled at every skill in the modern game in the WTA such as a Federer. So yeah I can definitely see someone come along and be regarded as the GOAT, then will get beaten by rivals, which then would make the "greatest generation".


Sam Stosur too? :tape:

Yep. Didn't say her because she was kinda irrelevant :shrug:

tennisbum79
Mar 31st, 2012, 12:54 PM
.

I really wish to see the 'topper' of the current creamy talent gunning for the Graf's Golden Slam stupendous achievement. Is that possible? 75% NO :tape:

You said you are NOT focusing on anyone player, but you are here.

Unlike Graf time, where she had only a handful (literally you could count her real threat on 1 hand) to deal with, the Greatest Generation, has had,at various times, many players at the top, constantly challenging each other for the leadership. With the Greastes Generation, the leadership has been decentralized in time and space.


Serena Williams, Venus Williams, Justine Henin, Maria Sharapova, Kim Clijsters, Lindsey Davenport, Martina Hingis, Jennifer Capriati, Mary Pierce, Amelie Mauresmo , Anastasia Myskina, Kuznetsova, etc..
With an equally impressive supporting cast of worthy challengers such as Safina, Jelena Jankovic,Vera Zvorenova, Elena Dementieva, Ana Ivanovic



Other players, part of supporting cast with background from country not generaly associated with tennis, have played singular role in the emergence of tennis in Asian, and eastern Europe, south America, where young girls relationship with tennis has changed.
From being limited to observer, admirer of the various players, to aspiring to one day be like them, because they see not only a variety of races and cultures, but they also see players who exactly look like them.

The bland and "plain" generation of Graf-Monica or Martina-Evert cannot make this claim.

stevos
Mar 31st, 2012, 03:05 PM
I can't help think (and I guess agree with tennisbum) that the Williams sisters brought about a sea change in the general discourse surrounding tennis. I'm not talking at all about skill or results or anything like that, but just about the way we see the game of tennis today.

Think about it. When they first came, most of the narrative surrounding tennis would be about child prodigies vs. older legends. This was the conflict, this was the kind of story being told. There would be those coming from tragic backgrounds of course, but it always seemed that the American (or Western) Dream was saving them from the tragedy of their war-torn countries. (Not saying this was reality, just the general narrative).

The Williams somewhat fit into that, but they were still American, and instead they were not solely beating a tough situation, they were beating racial barriers, and doing all of this while also being extremely entertaining on various levels of media exposure. They were crossover stars. They still fit the old model of narrative, but from then on, our current generation could start to have diverse and many different narratives focusing on the entertainment factor and diversity of cultural backgrounds. From personal experience, seeing Serena play, even while ignorant of the WTA in general, always brought out an excitement in me, they were such stars and seemed to bring tennis to a different contextual level. There's no way this didn't last and will continue to persist as a new paradigm. And I personally love it, so yeah this generation is mostly fitting into the more universal story of capital globalization, hence why all sorts of different countries can produce stars. It's not so east vs west anymore, with a focus on western dominance.
It is what it is, but I love it.

I also think the decentralized aspect of dominance has been very indicative of all that I've said. We all reminisce on the incredible runs of Graf, Seles, Nav, etc...but when we think about the 00's (and late 90's) there's so many different stars and eras packed into this time it'll be so much harder to make a sweeping generalization on the major players. Which is what makes any form of Dominance in this time so much more impressive (particularly Serena's). And I say this as a Maria fan, not trying to over-legendize Serena.
And I'm also not trying to take away from the older ladies. They are incredible athletes, and did great things for the sport, they were just living in a different world.

hobahobaspirit
Mar 31st, 2012, 03:54 PM
Their reach was very limited.

You did not read my opening argument carefully.

This Greatest Generation has far reaching impact on tennis around the world, on all continents, than any before them.

They have diversity in personality, race, country, culture and reach inspire many more girls around the world.
They are not blend to fit the traditional expectation of the traditional tennis, and for that they were able to reach a mode diverse demographic.


.

I think you're confusing things. What does that have to do with their tennis skills ? They had more impact because of media development and the presence of internet and social media.

tennisbum79
Mar 31st, 2012, 09:12 PM
I think you're confusing things. What does that have to do with their tennis skills ? They had more impact because of media development and the presence of internet and social media.
NO, I am not confusing any things
It is you, not me, who are focussing on tennis skills.
I am talking about their impact on the game as a collective group.

All other sports have at their disposal the same media.
There was clearly something else going on with this generation that seduced the media around the world to give them so much ink and TV air time.

Yes the different personalities of the players help he story line, most imporatntly but the diversity of background, culture, country was the real driving force to keeping the story line for long even as the limelight goes from player to players.

The WS had a story tell, but so did Maria, Justine, Kim Clijsters, Capriti, Ana Ivanovic, Jelena Jankovic, Hingis, Elena D., Anastasia Myskina,

All telling a very different story with varying degree compeling factor.
Then there is Sania Mirza, Na Li and the Chinese contingent

Because those media outlets bought in what this generation was selling to them: your daughter too can be one of us.
Just look at us.

tennisbum79
Mar 31st, 2012, 09:31 PM
I can't help think (and I guess agree with tennisbum) that the Williams sisters brought about a sea change in the general discourse surrounding tennis. I'm not talking at all about skill or results or anything like that, but just about the way we see the game of tennis today.
Thank stevos, I have been trying to get this point accross, but I have not successful as posters after poster keep verring the discussion to the skills of the players.
I would correct, it was not just the WS, although they were a big catalyst.
We should not forget the impact Mauresmo had, as the first openly lesbian WTA player.
The Russian revolution let my Anatsia Myskina early on, and was followed by a slew of "temperamental" ( an endearing term in this conext) Russian players.
You also had the duo Kim/Justine from Belgium, followed by Ana I/Jelene Jankovic.

These are not unimportant factor in the way this generation has seduced the media, involumtarily, to write about them.

II also think the decentralized aspect of dominance has been very indicative of all that I've said.
Excellent point. I also try to articualte this point as rebuttal to Buluva argument on the lack of dominance in the number GS winners, comared to Martina N.

IAnd I'm also not trying to take away from the older ladies. They are incredible athletes, and did great things for the sport, they were just living in a different world.
Yes, yes. This point is worth repeating.

For the argument you and I are making, the validating focal poing is NOT performance or number of titles won, but the impact on broadening the popularity of tennis in area the traditionaly did not care about the sport.
As you put it, they change the narrative of tennis or perception of it, dramatically.

tennisbum79
Mar 31st, 2012, 09:47 PM
And I personally love it, so yeah this generation is mostly fitting into the more universal story of capital globalization, hence why all sorts of different countries can produce stars. It's not so east vs west anymore, with a focus on western dominance.
It is what it is, but I love it.

.
That, my friends, is the crust of the matter.
Stevo, you said it eloquently.
:bounce::bounce::worship::worship:

bulava
Apr 3rd, 2012, 05:18 PM
You said you are NOT focusing on anyone player, but you are here.
Focusing? Not really, I said I wish. For the record, I'm NOT a fan of any Tennis player :D


Unlike Graf time, where she had only a handful (literally you could count her real threat on 1 hand) to deal with, the Greatest Generation, has had,at various times, many players at the top, constantly challenging each other for the leadership. With the Greastes Generation, the leadership has been decentralized in time and space.
That argument is invalid because it's common when great champions dominate be it Tennis or any other sport. It sounds to me like French whining in case of Lance Armstrong's Le Tour de France domination. Or could anyone dare to say that Eddie Merckx has won so many times because of only a handful opponents?

I agree that since Williams sisters emergence Tennis got expanded, more global players emerged/flourished, and sport level improved a lot :)


Serena Williams, Venus Williams, Justine Henin, Maria Sharapova, Kim Clijsters, Lindsey Davenport, Martina Hingis, Jennifer Capriati, Mary Pierce, Amelie Mauresmo , Anastasia Myskina, Kuznetsova, etc..
With an equally impressive supporting cast of worthy challengers such as Safina, Jelena Jankovic,Vera Zvorenova, Elena Dementieva, Ana Ivanovic
My observation is the biased people who are writing off the achievements of new champions under the pretext of Williams sisters got injured blah blah. They cry, moan and whine about the new age champions continuously, some even insult them as Generation Suck. They don't appreciate the hard work as if winning a Slam is like earning a month's paycheck! Eh?

Having said all that, the present generation top players should raise their levels and get into fiercely-competitive with each other to win more slams for at least 2-3 years. During that period they should beat all the previous generation players, thus planting their names firmly in the Tennis history as New Greatest Generation. That's the reason behind why I wish :D


The bland and "plain" generation of Graf-Monica or Martina-Evert cannot make this claim.
True, but brushing them under the carpet with band and plain labels isn't wise on your part :tape:

tennisbum79
Apr 14th, 2012, 01:56 PM
In light of "The most popular players in the word" thread, I thought it was time to bump this this thread, and give the chance to others to have their say on a somewhat related thread.

pov
Apr 14th, 2012, 02:36 PM
the Greatest Generation in the USA, which the Generation of World War II and they contribution to the United States progress in the 2nd half of the 20th century.

:lol: Nonsense. I'm sure they were dubbed that by themselves and some of the prior generation. A country going to war doesn't make those who were made to serve as soldiers "the greatest generation." In fact, such a concept is inane.

tennisbum79
Apr 14th, 2012, 02:45 PM
:lol: Nonsense. I'm sure they were dubbed that by themselves and some of the prior generation. A country going to war doesn't make those who were made to serve as soldiers "the greatest generation." In fact, such a concept is inane.

Look, this notion has been widely accepted. I am not making it up.
Take issue with Tom Brokaw.
Yes, there have been some criticism of the book, but this is not the space and time to engage in more of it.

pov
Apr 14th, 2012, 02:53 PM
Look, this notion has been widely accepted. I am not making it up.

Would you like a list of other inane things that - at one time or the other - have been widely accepted? ;)

tennisbum79
Apr 14th, 2012, 02:57 PM
Would you like a list of other inane things that - at one time or the other - have been widely accepted? ;)
Yes, I am aware of of more discussing despicable practices, such as slavery, segregation, discrimination that were widely accepted, but I really think this thread is not the place to have such discussion.

pov
Apr 14th, 2012, 03:20 PM
I really think this thread is not the place to have such discussion.
Okay. I'll respect that. :yeah:

tennisbum79
Apr 14th, 2012, 03:22 PM
Okay. I'll respect that. :yeah:
Thank you for the courtesy

Now, if you can, please provide your view on the topic at hand.

pov
Apr 14th, 2012, 03:28 PM
So the case you're making is that "most diversification" = greatest? If so, I don't agree and I don't get the point. Is "most diverse" not enough? Also, I think that the increasing diversification was due to many factors that had nothing to do with the players themselves.

tennisbum79
Apr 14th, 2012, 03:44 PM
So the case you're making is that "most diversification" = greatest? If so, I don't agree and I don't get the point. Is "most diverse" not enough? Also, I think that the increasing diversification was due to many factors that had nothing to do with the players themselves.
Not quite. my point is

most diversification = most impact on tennis popularity = most reach around the world on all continents = more local tennis players in more countries( instead of having to move to the west to have a career, no longer should you have to seek political asylum in order to realize your dream)

Also, the leadership of this generation was the most diversified, over time and space.
The WS, the Belgian "Sisters", The Russian brigade, The Serbian Sisters, the Aussies, the French, etc...

hingis-seles
Apr 14th, 2012, 04:32 PM
There's no point anointing any one generation as the greatest, if your criteria is global reach. That is simply a function of time, with more evolution in technology, transport and communications.

tennisbum79
Apr 14th, 2012, 05:14 PM
There's no point anointing any one generation as the greatest, if your criteria is global reach. That is simply a function of time, with more evolution in technology, transport and communications.
I don't subscribe to the fact that if you wait long enough, things will probably get better.

People, in their time, take ownership of their own destiny and make things happen.
I guess you also make the argument, if women wait long enough, they will also equal pay, not just in tennis, but in wider workplace.
So there is no need to recognize those who fought for it, or even there was no need to fight for in the first place, since it would have eventually happened with evolution.

The vibrant diversity in leadership of this generation, , spanning overtime and space, has nothing to with evolution.

So I strongly disagree with you.

mistymore
Apr 14th, 2012, 05:31 PM
What constitutes a generation. How big an age and playing time gap. It is hard for me to think of Henin as playing from the same generation as Hingis for instance, yet they are almost the same age but they came up totally differently. They played only 2 matches before Hingis first retired, and both when Henin was outside the top 50. Then you have other instances were someone like Capriati is 8 years older than Clijsters, can that be a generation? Are we going even further and counting Capriati and Sharapova the same generation, 12 years age difference, and only 1 head to head match. The Williams crossed over and were a big part of many players eras which is what seems to bring them all together.

If we really narrow it down I would say the best generation ever though might be the 1980-1983. Lets look at what they achieved:

Serena- 13 slams
Venus- 7 slams
Henin- 7 slams
Hingis- 5 slams
Clijsters- 4 slams
Schiavone- 1 slam
Na- 1 slam
Myskina- 1 slam

This group were stealing tons of slams from the Davenport-Pierce era players who werent even allowed many for themselves. They also helped make Monica Seles irrelevant long before 30, make Sanchez Vicario look as outdated as an ancient old relic, and pushed a 30ish Graf into retirement. They then completely dominated for years during the hearts of their own careers, allowing few other comers to join the party. They now are holding back the new generation who are barely getting any chance to shine, and even sending out their very capable bench warmers (Schiavone and Na) to steal the feast from the current generation, as many of their first line playres and starters are showing the wear of tear of years of supremacy.

Lets also look at who was probably the best player of each year:

1997- Hingis (1980-1983 player)
1998- Hingis (1980-1983 player)
1999- Davenport (1976-1979 player)
2000- Venus (1980-1983 player)
2001- Venus (1980-1983 player)
2002- Serena (1980-1983 player)
2003- Henin (1980-1983 player)
2004- Henin (1980-1983 player)
2005- Clijsters (1980-1983 player)
2006- Henin (1980-1983 player)
2007- Henin (1980-1983 player)
2008- Serena (1980-1983 player)
2009- Serena (1980-1983 player)
2010- Clijsters (1980-1983 player)
2011- Kvitova (1988-1991 player)

You could even argue 1999 was Hingis as well. She made 3 slam finals to only 1 for Davenport, but Davenport won the WTA Championships in addition to Wimbledon, did well at all the slams, and was 3-0 vs Hingis that year. Which would give the 1980-1983 group a sweep of all the years from 1997-2010.

The class of 1980-1983 are bullies who hog the WTA tour for years, and look to continue to do so with their remaining cast.

The age range of this group is only 16 slams or 4 years worth, yet they have managed to amass 39 slams, nearly 10 years worth. By contrast if we assign a 1974-1979 cast they still managed only 11 slams by my count (3 for Davenport, 3 for Capriati, 2 for Pierce, 2 for Mauresmo, 1 for Majoli). A 1984-1987 cast which would be led by Kuznetsova and Sharapova has managed 6 slams so far I believe it is (3 by Sharapova, 2 by Kuznetsova, 1 by Stosur). Anyone who knows of some I am forgetting feel free to point out.

This all shows what a lost generation 1984-1987 was, and how little impact the 1976-1979 generation made, or were allowed to make by the domineering 1980-1983 generation who quickly upsurped them before they could gain any foothold.

barmaid
Apr 15th, 2012, 02:53 AM
Thanks mistymore for producing all the stats and your analysis, well thought presentation, yep! they were the best!:worship:

Barmaid:wavey:

tennisbum79
Apr 15th, 2012, 12:51 PM
Folks, number of Grand Slams total is not the only measure, the impact the generation had on tennis popularity and society is a major factor.


Graf-Martina-Evert generation with all their accomplishment on the tennis, was just that.
They had little impact on the world outside of tennis. Yes, elite around the world knew of them, less in the masses.


Here is a recent example of the current generation, one among a very long list of many.
This generation is more involved in causes in their country and around the world than any other.

Maria In Siberia, Henin in Africa, Serena in Africa, Venus in the USA and internationally (her own profession accomplishment while still an active player is a great example for girls around the world), Li Na and Sania Mirza, etc...

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=457555

DemWilliamsGulls
Apr 15th, 2012, 01:12 PM
I'm soooo glad I caught tennis at its best The Williams Sisters, Seles, Capriati, Davenport, Pierce, Henin, Clijsters, Mauresmo, Hingis, and The Russians ALLL played at the same time in tournaments. This to me is considered "The Golden Age" of tennis because we watched the game change with so much talent on the court.

*JR*
Apr 15th, 2012, 01:28 PM
Oh, the "pool training" :spit: Don't talk about that too please. It's so exagerated. Ana actually trained in Switzerland for most of her serious training life. Jelena in Florida, Novak was all over Europe. So those circumstances weren't that bad ;)

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1202/tennis-dads-who-coach/images/dokic.jpg :help:

mistymore
Apr 15th, 2012, 02:58 PM
Folks, number of Grand Slams total is not the only measure, the impact the generation had on tennis popularity and society is a major factor.


Graf-Martina-Evert generation with all their accomplishment on the tennis, was was just that.
They had little impact on the world outside of tennis. Yes, elite around the world knew of them, less in the masses.


Here is a recent example of the current generation, one among a very long list of many.
This generation is more involved in causes in their country and around the world than any other.

Maria In Siberia, Henin in Africa, Serena in Africa, Venus in the USA and internationally (her own profession accomplishment while still an active player is a great example for girls around the world), Li Na and Sania Mirza, etc...

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=457555

OK so they were the best both in terms of tennis and in terms of cultural and Worldwide impact. All the better.