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View Full Version : Better grass court player- Clijsters or Henin


Clijsters28
Feb 16th, 2012, 10:52 PM
Who do you think is the better player on this surface. I think it is Clijsters by a bit, even though Henin has slightly better credentials. Kim's case is just more potent on the surface.

liuxuan
Feb 16th, 2012, 11:05 PM
r u mental???

2 RU and 3 SF at wimbledon >>>>>> 2SF

Justine lost twice to peak venus and then to peak serena in 01, 02 and 03, kim lost to venus with half a rib cage and justine herself.

no contest!

liuxuan
Feb 16th, 2012, 11:07 PM
can you actually give me an example of kim playing 'potent' grass court tennis???

the best ive actually seen her play on grass was in the 05 R16 vs lindsay which was super high quality, but she still lost

Clijsters28
Feb 16th, 2012, 11:10 PM
They are really at the same level when you think about. Both are clearly below all of Venus, Serena, Davenport, Kvitova, Hingis, Sharapova, and Mauresmo while both are clearly above everyone else of the last 12 years- Capriati, Bartoli, Dementieva, Zvonareva. So whichever one is ahead they are only place ahead of the other.

Clijsters28
Feb 16th, 2012, 11:12 PM
can you actually give me an example of kim playing 'potent' grass court tennis???

the best ive actually seen her play on grass was in the 05 R16 vs lindsay which was super high quality, but she still lost

When she took Venus to 3 sets and led Venus by a set and break in the 2003 Wimbledon semis, and when she overpowered an overmatched Henin in the last 2 sets of their 2010 Wimbledon encounter.

ToopsTame
Feb 16th, 2012, 11:16 PM
When she took Venus to 3 sets and led Venus by a set and break in the 2003 Wimbledon semis, and when she overpowered an overmatched Henin in the last 2 sets of their 2010 Wimbledon encounter.

LOL by that messed up logic you would need to also acknowledge that Henin was a set away from winning Wimbledon twice. Love the use of the 2010 match too. The match where Henin suffered her career ending injury. :lol:
Obvious stan is obvious. :tape:

liuxuan
Feb 16th, 2012, 11:22 PM
TBH i dont think henin IS a tier below hingis, sharapova or mauresmo, even tho all 3 had their special year at wimbledon, her level of play on grass was on a par. In 2006 Mauresmo was better on the day, however on another day it could easily have been henin who beat mauresmo.

i do agree though that her game on grass didnt match up to that of venus, serena or lindsay - its the consistency of not only their serve on grass, but the one two punch of the big serve out wide then a big groundstroke into the open court that sets those 3 players apart from the rest of their generation on grass.

laurie
Feb 16th, 2012, 11:22 PM
Who do you think is the better player on this surface. I think it is Clijsters by a bit, even though Henin has slightly better credentials. Kim's case is just more potent on the surface.

:lol: :devil: ;)

PetraReeMona
Feb 16th, 2012, 11:40 PM
:help: Is this a joke thread?

Bias doesn't come into it does it? :help:

doooma6816
Feb 16th, 2012, 11:49 PM
what a joke...

Justine!

danieln1
Feb 16th, 2012, 11:54 PM
I bet he´s a Clijsters hater in disguise :devil:

Anyway, Fiona doesn´t have a clue to play on grass, her mediocre serve and volleys, and lack of variation and finesse, makes her useless on this surface.

Henin did everything better than her, and it´s clearly superior on this surface and every other for that matter

:weirdo:

young_gunner913
Feb 17th, 2012, 12:01 AM
Poor Justine, this is what she's been reduced to. :awww:

Lord Choc Ice
Feb 17th, 2012, 12:15 AM
Nice thread :lol:.

Helen Lawson
Feb 17th, 2012, 12:26 AM
I don't think Kim is in another league from Cap on grass.

StephenUK
Feb 17th, 2012, 12:27 AM
I don't think Clijsters is useless on grass, her results are pretty respectable, but she never reached Henin's heights. Aspects of Henin's game, like her volleys, were tailor-made for the surface and she was even capable of beating Serena on it.

TheDream
Feb 17th, 2012, 12:31 AM
I don't think Clijsters is useless on grass, her results are pretty respectable, but she never reached Henin's heights. Aspects of Henin's game, like her volleys, were tailor-made for the surface and she was even capable of beating Serena on it.

Well, I wouldn't take that Serena match seriously at all considering Serena hit nothing but sliced backhands because of the injury she got against Daniele. But, Henin is still a much better player on grass than Kim.

flyingmachine
Feb 17th, 2012, 12:37 AM
There is no contest on this one. :shrug:
Justine was miles ahead from Kim on grass. :devil:

Lulu.
Feb 17th, 2012, 12:50 AM
Easily Justine.

dsanders06
Feb 17th, 2012, 01:40 AM
Justine fo sho.

justineheninfan
Feb 17th, 2012, 01:54 AM
I don't think Kim is in another league from Cap on grass.

Capriati is better than Clijsters on grass, beyond a doubt (but weaker than Henin also without a doubt).
I would rank recent grass courters something like this:

1. Venus
2. Serena
3. Davenport
4. Mauresmo
5. Sharapova
6. Kvitova
7. Henin
8. Hingis
9. Capriati
10. Bartoli
11. Dementieva
12. Zvonareva
13. Clijsters

Kim would be way down the list from wherever Henin is.

Tomic
Feb 17th, 2012, 02:04 AM
Easily Justine.

This

Towanda
Feb 17th, 2012, 02:12 AM
I am a huge fan of Kim and I can't stand Henin, and even I know that Henin is the better grass court player.

skanky~skanketta
Feb 17th, 2012, 02:22 AM
Capriati is better than Clijsters on grass, beyond a doubt (but weaker than Henin also without a doubt).
I would rank recent grass courters something like this:

1. Venus
2. Serena
3. Davenport
4. Mauresmo
5. Sharapova
6. Kvitova
7. Henin
8. Hingis
9. Capriati
10. Bartoli
11. Dementieva
12. Zvonareva
13. Clijsters

Kim would be way down the list from wherever Henin is.Ranking Kim below Dementieva, Zvonareva, JCap and Bartoli? No. Just no.

Stonerpova
Feb 17th, 2012, 02:24 AM
r u mental???

2 RU and 3 SF at wimbledon >>>>>> 2SF

Justine lost twice to peak venus and then to peak serena in 01, 02 and 03, kim lost to venus with half a rib cage and justine herself.

no contest!

:haha:

Yeah, Henin. And it's not close. Henin's a better player in general, not just on clay.

sammy01
Feb 17th, 2012, 02:27 AM
henin is probably the best grass player to never win wimbledon.

henin by some distance, though kim is still GOAT and didn't marry a gay guy :oh:

Moveyourfeet
Feb 17th, 2012, 02:30 AM
Who do you think is the better player on this surface. I think it is Clijsters by a bit, even though Henin has slightly better credentials. Kim's case is just more potent on the surface.

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyiypiOuZU1qgoi9lo1_400.gif

hingisGOAT
Feb 17th, 2012, 02:49 AM
Of course JHfan would rate Henin above Hingis on grass. NOT. Neither is a grass-goat. Both of them, in their Wimbledon final (97, 06) played similar opponents: athletic, flairsome serve-and-volleyers. The reason Hingis WON and Henin LOST is because Hingis has better passing shots and lobs than Justine, and was better able to combat her net-rushing opponent. Hingis' game on grass was good enough to see her lift the Wimbledon trophy, unlike Justine. End.

Now, more on topic -- Justine is a slightly better grass-courter than Kim. Neither are all that great on the surface. Justine is highly overrated on grass. For one, she NEVER beat anyone of note at Wimbledon except third-tier grass-court players like Capriati and Seles. Everyone sees her volleys and slice backhand and thinks "omg Justine should have won 5 Wimbledons!!!" but in reality she had many weaknesses on the surface.

First of all, her serve percentage was always abysmal. On grass, first serves are hugely important, and Henin could never get enough of them in. Her groundstrokes in general had too much topspin (not flat enough), and most importantly she had HUGE backswings. Her big backswings did not give her enough time on the surface to set up her shots, and so she was often playing too much defense or mis-hitting her shots. Finally her slice had no bite on it at all (especially for a one-hander), so it wasn't very useful on grass (unlike, say, Graf).

justineheninfan
Feb 17th, 2012, 02:53 AM
Ranking Kim below Dementieva, Zvonareva, JCap and Bartoli? No. Just no.

Capriati- of course she is better than Kim on grass. She has beaten Navratilova and Serena at Wimbledon. Both have 2 Wimbledon semis but Jennifer didnt have joke draws to get there. Jennifer was in atleast the quarters of Wimbledon everyone of her top 10 years (1991, 1992, 1993, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004).

Bartoli- Wimbledon final, Eastborne winner like Kim. Beat Kvitova in final to win her Eastborne, has beaten Henin and Serena in seperate years at Wimbledon. No contest, easily above Kim.

Dementieva- 2 Wimbledon semis, like Kim. Her performance vs Serena in the 2009 semis was far above anything Kim has ever displayed on grass though.

Zvonareva- OK she is questionable but she does have a Wimbledon final, Kim does not, and she beat Kim, so called peak Kim according to her own fans, en route to doing it.

Capriati and Bartoli are unquestionably superior to Clijsters on grass. I cant believe you would suggest otherwise. Dementieva and Zvonareva are more debateable but I would rank them higher as would many others.

Slutiana
Feb 17th, 2012, 02:55 AM
It's amazing how Clijsters has gone from being one of the most underrated players to one of the most overrated ones. This question shouldn't even be asked.

sammy01
Feb 17th, 2012, 03:25 AM
Capriati- of course she is better than Kim on grass. She has beaten Navratilova and Serena at Wimbledon. Both have 2 Wimbledon semis but Jennifer didnt have joke draws to get there. Jennifer was in atleast the quarters of Wimbledon everyone of her top 10 years (1991, 1992, 1993, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004).

Bartoli- Wimbledon final, Eastborne winner like Kim. Beat Kvitova in final to win her Eastborne, has beaten Henin and Serena in seperate years at Wimbledon. No contest, easily above Kim.

Dementieva- 2 Wimbledon semis, like Kim. Her performance vs Serena in the 2009 semis was far above anything Kim has ever displayed on grass though.

Zvonareva- OK she is questionable but she does have a Wimbledon final, Kim does not, and she beat Kim, so called peak Kim according to her own fans, en route to doing it.

Capriati and Bartoli are unquestionably superior to Clijsters on grass. I cant believe you would suggest otherwise. Dementieva and Zvonareva are more debateable but I would rank them higher as would many others.

bullshit, kim's game at 5-4 1st set against venus in 2003 is far and above anything dementieva could ever produce on any surface.

WuaoYRvv1BQ

young_gunner913
Feb 17th, 2012, 03:30 AM
bullshit, kim's game at 5-4 1st set against venus in 2003 is far and above anything dementieva could ever produce on any surface.

WuaoYRvv1BQ

And Kim faded into a beatdown after that. At least Elena was able to get Serena on the ropes in her SF and had a legit shot at winning.

dsanders06
Feb 17th, 2012, 03:35 AM
I would certainly put Kim ahead of Dementieva on grass (and every other surface for that matter). Something everyone always forgets about the '09 semifinal is that, because of the unBritish heatwave that had dominated that fortnight, the grass was completely parched and the BBC Hawkeye monitors showed the ball was bouncing much higher than normal that day, close to the bounce you'd get on a hardcourt. It was still an impressive display from Dementieva to be sure, but she wouldn't've been able to proudce that type of high-quality counter-punching on a grasscourt in virtually any other circumstances (even the slowed-down grass of recent years)....and when you take that match out of the equation, she's never had another notable result on grass (she didn't beat any great players en route to either of her semifinals).

Kim definitely goes above Zvonareva and her flukish Wimbledon final and no other QFs in her career, too.

Capriati .... :shrug: I guess it's fair to consider her win over Navratilova in the early '90s as the tiebreaker between her and Kim, and thus give Cap the edge. I'd definitely put Marion ahead of Kim too, with her extra QF and Eastbourne title, plus I'd expect her to make atleast the semis at Wimbledon once more before she retires.

Moveyourfeet
Feb 17th, 2012, 03:57 AM
Kim is basic on grass. Henin has more talent in her gay-marrying pinkie than the Opportunist and that's a fact.

thrust
Feb 17th, 2012, 12:45 PM
I don't think Clijsters is useless on grass, her results are pretty respectable, but she never reached Henin's heights. Aspects of Henin's game, like her volleys, were tailor-made for the surface and she was even capable of beating Serena on it.

Good post! Justine was slightly better then Kim on grass, and very close to Amelie and Maria. Justine did beat Amelie in an Eastbourne final, 7-6 in the third set. That's about as close as they were on grass.

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 17th, 2012, 12:54 PM
Who do you think is the better player on this surface. I think it is Clijsters by a bit, even though Henin has slightly better credentials. Kim's case is just more potent on the surface.



http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b173/pejidapimp/ew.gif?t=1204847503

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 17th, 2012, 12:58 PM
It's amazing how Clijsters has gone from being one of the most underrated players to one of the most overrated ones. This question shouldn't even be asked.

this

timafi
Feb 17th, 2012, 01:09 PM
Capriati- of course she is better than Kim on grass. She has beaten Navratilova and Serena at Wimbledon. Both have 2 Wimbledon semis but Jennifer didnt have joke draws to get there. Jennifer was in atleast the quarters of Wimbledon everyone of her top 10 years (1991, 1992, 1993, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004).




Capriati wasn't that better on grass:rolleyes: Amelie whooped her ass 6-3/6-2 at the 2002 Wimbledon:tape:

Fighterpova
Feb 17th, 2012, 01:59 PM
Are you mental? :help:

Mightymirza
Feb 17th, 2012, 02:04 PM
Its not even close :rolleyes:

everythingtaboo
Feb 17th, 2012, 02:06 PM
I would certainly put Kim ahead of Dementieva on grass (and every other surface for that matter). Something everyone always forgets about the '09 semifinal is that, because of the unBritish heatwave that had dominated that fortnight, the grass was completely parched and the BBC Hawkeye monitors showed the ball was bouncing much higher than normal that day, close to the bounce you'd get on a hardcourt. It was still an impressive display from Dementieva to be sure, but she wouldn't've been able to proudce that type of high-quality counter-punching on a grasscourt in virtually any other circumstances (even the slowed-down grass of recent years)....and when you take that match out of the equation, she's never had another notable result on grass (she didn't beat any great players en route to either of her semifinals).

Kim definitely goes above Zvonareva and her flukish Wimbledon final and no other QFs in her career, too.

Capriati .... :shrug: I guess it's fair to consider her win over Navratilova in the early '90s as the tiebreaker between her and Kim, and thus give Cap the edge. I'd definitely put Marion ahead of Kim too, with her extra QF and Eastbourne title, plus I'd expect her to make atleast the semis at Wimbledon once more before she retires.

Great post. :)

RenaPova
Feb 17th, 2012, 02:23 PM
Henin took a set off 2001 Venus which was pretty close to her peak if I remember, something I doubt Clijsters could ever do. She's apparently at her peak since her comeback and she still only barely beat a Sjogren affected Venus at her best slam.

n1_and_uh_noone
Feb 17th, 2012, 05:48 PM
Is this the most lopsided poll on TF ever? :eek: And Justine wins it too :sobbing: And it isn't about who is the most hated or unsportsmanlike or ugliest or has the gayest husband ever :worship:

Sammo
Feb 17th, 2012, 06:01 PM
Uh, why would anyone vote Clijsters here?

sweetadri06
Feb 17th, 2012, 06:06 PM
this

True. People forget that Kim barely did anything when the competition was way tougher. As far as grass goes, neither Justine or Kim are that great on grass. Justine is probably only slightly better but not by much.

serenafan08
Feb 17th, 2012, 06:12 PM
:o :lol: Justine is better, and it's not even close. Justine got to 2 Wimbledon finals, and should have won the latter final. Kim hasn't had a sniff at a Wimbledon title; maybe 2003 against Venus.

Matt01
Feb 17th, 2012, 06:26 PM
True. People forget that Kim barely did anything when the competition was way tougher. As far as grass goes, neither Justine or Kim are that great on grass. Justine is probably only slightly better but not by much.


Yes, by much :rolleyes:

justineheninfan
Feb 17th, 2012, 07:30 PM
I would certainly put Kim ahead of Dementieva on grass (and every other surface for that matter). Something everyone always forgets about the '09 semifinal is that, because of the unBritish heatwave that had dominated that fortnight, the grass was completely parched and the BBC Hawkeye monitors showed the ball was bouncing much higher than normal that day, close to the bounce you'd get on a hardcourt. It was still an impressive display from Dementieva to be sure, but she wouldn't've been able to proudce that type of high-quality counter-punching on a grasscourt in virtually any other circumstances (even the slowed-down grass of recent years)....and when you take that match out of the equation, she's never had another notable result on grass (she didn't beat any great players en route to either of her semifinals).

Kim definitely goes above Zvonareva and her flukish Wimbledon final and no other QFs in her career, too.

Capriati .... :shrug: I guess it's fair to consider her win over Navratilova in the early '90s as the tiebreaker between her and Kim, and thus give Cap the edge. I'd definitely put Marion ahead of Kim too, with her extra QF and Eastbourne title, plus I'd expect her to make atleast the semis at Wimbledon once more before she retires.

All valid points. I would revise my list then:

1. Venus
2. Serena

----big gap-----


3. Davenport
4. Mauresmo
5. Sharapova
6. Kvitova
7. Henin
8. Hingis

----big gap-----


9. Capriati
10. Bartoli
11. Clijsters

Come to think of it maybe Bartoli should be above Capriati though. Kvitova will be #3 on this list in a couple years I predict (or even this year if she defends her title she probably already is).


As for Hingis I know she won a Wimbledon title but that was a bit of a fluke considering she only made 1 other semifinal at Wimbledon and lost that one in straight sets. In her career she has made 3 total quarterfinals of Wimbledon only, and lost 1st round to a nobody twice as the #1 ranked player (I know Henin had a super bad loss 1st round in 2005 but she wasnt even close to #1 ranked at the time). I dont think Hingis is a better grass player than Henin personally. Others may be free to disagree. Either way they are roughly the same level, if Hingis is above Henin then Hingis is clearly only #7 on this list as no way is she superior to any of the first 6, and Henin would be right behind her at #8, virtually no difference. Anyway if Henin had won that Wimbledon final over Mauresmo she would instantly jump to atleast #4 on this list, and be far ahead of Hingis. The only thing that makes it a debate is Hingis winning Wimbledon.

As for why Henin lost the 06 wimbledon final and Hingis won in 97, Henin unfortunately did not bring her A game to one of the biggest matches of her career in what was an easily winnable match, while Hingis to her credit did. Also Henin wasnt playing an injured oppoennt like Hingis was in the 97 final (who healthy trounced her a year later, and crushed her in the 1st set before the injury began taking a toll).

Charlatan
Feb 17th, 2012, 07:40 PM
:spit: the lopsided poll result

Sombrerero loco
Feb 17th, 2012, 07:52 PM
lol, jesustine by far

bobito
Feb 17th, 2012, 08:04 PM
When she took Venus to 3 sets and led Venus by a set and break in the 2003 Wimbledon semis, and when she overpowered an overmatched Henin in the last 2 sets of their 2010 Wimbledon encounter.

Reality check - Justine was soundly thrashing Clijsters in that match when she sustained a career ending injury. It sums up the feebleness of your argument that you cite this as evidence in favour of Clijsters. Had it not been for the injury, Justine would have dismissed her from the court in well under an hour.

Pump-it-UP
Feb 17th, 2012, 08:06 PM
:rolls:

JCTennisFan
Feb 17th, 2012, 08:29 PM
Henin in my opinion.

As big of a Kim fan as I am, I cannot agree that she is the better grass court player. Henin made the first F at W by beating Capriati in the SFs, which at the time was quite an accomplishment (Cap up until that point was undefeated at Slams that year and had beaten Serena just the round beforehand... on grass mind you). Kim, in comparison, has never even made a W Final (though she probably should have at some point in her career).

When breaking their games down, Henin moved better on grass, was more capable at net, was more willing to take risks on her serve, and had slightly better all-round variety. Grass cant typically be won by just dominating the back of the court, which is Kim's bread and butter. With her stronger, post-retirement mentality though I think Kim could do a bit better than in her first career at Wimbledon... but thats personally just my opinion.

RenaPova
Feb 18th, 2012, 08:43 PM
:o :lol: Justine is better, and it's not even close. Justine got to 2 Wimbledon finals, and should have won the latter final. Kim hasn't had a sniff at a Wimbledon title; maybe 2003 against Venus.

There wouldn't have been a chance of Kim beating Serena at the Wimblledon 2003 considering the fact she was a choker and Serena was in imperious form. Plus, she ended up beating Venus who at the time did literally everything better than Kim in my opinion.

justineheninfan
Feb 18th, 2012, 09:12 PM
Venus was badly injured (reactiving an old stomach injury which would cause her to miss the next 6 months) in the day between her quarterfinal and semifinal at Wimbledon 2003 and barely able to serve which is the only reason Kim had a chance of winning. It was a heroic effort from Venus to come from behind and win in visibly enormous pain. Even though Justine got well beaten by a super determined and hot Serena in the other semi, if Justine had played Venus instead of Kim, or if Justine had somehow beaten Serena to play Venus in the final, she would have capatilized on Venus's serious injury and won. Justine isnt the headcase choker Kim was back then, and is by far a better grass courter than Kim who made her 2 semis with joke draws (eg- beating Sylvia Farina in 3 sets in the quarters). Also dont be deceived by the Venus-Serena final going 3 sets, Serena clearly took pity on her wounded sister knowing she would win but not wanting to embarass her. Venus was hitting some 65-70 mph serves and Serena was slicing or looping them back to the middle of the court right around the surface line.

sammy01
Feb 18th, 2012, 10:20 PM
Venus was badly injured (reactiving an old stomach injury which would cause her to miss the next 6 months) in the day between her quarterfinal and semifinal at Wimbledon 2003 and barely able to serve which is the only reason Kim had a chance of winning. It was a heroic effort from Venus to come from behind and win in visibly enormous pain. Even though Justine got well beaten by a super determined and hot Serena in the other semi, if Justine had played Venus instead of Kim, or if Justine had somehow beaten Serena to play Venus in the final, she would have capatilized on Venus's serious injury and won. Justine isnt the headcase choker Kim was back then, and is by far a better grass courter than Kim who made her 2 semis with joke draws (eg- beating Sylvia Farina in 3 sets in the quarters). Also dont be deceived by the Venus-Serena final going 3 sets, Serena clearly took pity on her wounded sister knowing she would win but not wanting to embarass her. Venus was hitting some 65-70 mph serves and Serena was slicing or looping them back to the middle of the court right around the surface line.

you need to rewatch that kim vs venus match. venus got lucky it rained when kim was up a set and a break IIRC and got her stomach taped and time to get pain relief into her system and working. by the end venus was hitting the ball and serving as hard as ever.