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mykarma
Feb 2nd, 2012, 05:57 PM
As elite soccer players compete in the qualifiers for this summer's Olympics, some won't even get a shot to show off their skills: female Muslim players can be automatically disqualified for wearing hijab (or headscarves) on the field.

The International Football Association Board (IFAB) -- a governing body that sets the rules for the soccer trials leading up to the Olympics -- has already disqualified the entire women's Iranian national team after they tried to wear headscarves during their qualifying match. Players on the teams from Jordan, Palestine and Bahrain who choose to wear headscarves face the same fate.

For Rahaf Owais, a staffer at the Jordanian Football Association, the headscarf ban means the end of some young players' careers before they even begin. After seeing some of Jordan's players disqualified for expressing their religious beliefs, Rahaf started a petition on Change.org urging IFAB to reverse its ban on female soccer players wearing headscarves. Click here to stand up for Rahaf's young players and sign her petition.

IFAB has argued the headscarf ban is about safety, but the Iranian players who were disqualified were wearing wraps fastened with specially designed Velcro closures meant to eliminate any chance of neck injury. For players who choose to wear headscarves for religious reasons, the ban of even the safe, new head coverings is discrimination, plain and simple.

Earlier this week, the President of the Asian Football Confederation, Zhang Jilong, called on IFAB to reconsider the headscarf ban at its upcoming meeting on March 3. And now FIFA -- the international federation that runs the World Cup and is a voting member of IFAB -- has piled on and is urging IFAB to change the rule.

Zhang and the FIFA leadership have a lot of influence in the soccer world, so we know IFAB is paying attention to this issue. If enough people speak out by signing Rahaf's petition, IFAB will be convinced the public wants them to reverse the ban and lift the discriminatory barrier keeping some women from competing in the Olympic trials.

Click here to sign Rahaf's petition urging IFAB to reverse the ban on women soccer players wearing headscarves.As elite soccer players compete in the qualifiers for this summer's Olympics, some won't even get a shot to show off their skills: female Muslim players can be automatically disqualified for wearing hijab (or headscarves) on the field.

The International Football Association Board (IFAB) -- a governing body that sets the rules for the soccer trials leading up to the Olympics -- has already disqualified the entire women's Iranian national team after they tried to wear headscarves during their qualifying match. Players on the teams from Jordan, Palestine and Bahrain who choose to wear headscarves face the same fate.

For Rahaf Owais, a staffer at the Jordanian Football Association, the headscarf ban means the end of some young players' careers before they even begin. After seeing some of Jordan's players disqualified for expressing their religious beliefs, Rahaf started a petition on Change.org urging IFAB to reverse its ban on female soccer players wearing headscarves. Click here to stand up for Rahaf's young players and sign her petition.

IFAB has argued the headscarf ban is about safety, but the Iranian players who were disqualified were wearing wraps fastened with specially designed Velcro closures meant to eliminate any chance of neck injury. For players who choose to wear headscarves for religious reasons, the ban of even the safe, new head coverings is discrimination, plain and simple.

Earlier this week, the President of the Asian Football Confederation, Zhang Jilong, called on IFAB to reconsider the headscarf ban at its upcoming meeting on March 3. And now FIFA -- the international federation that runs the World Cup and is a voting member of IFAB -- has piled on and is urging IFAB to change the rule.

Zhang and the FIFA leadership have a lot of influence in the soccer world, so we know IFAB is paying attention to this issue. If enough people speak out by signing Rahaf's petition, IFAB will be convinced the public wants them to reverse the ban and lift the discriminatory barrier keeping some women from competing in the Olympic trials.

Lord Choc Ice
Feb 3rd, 2012, 12:16 AM
It would be unfair at the Olympics having to face a team full of headscarfs :shrug:.

Wigglytuff
Feb 3rd, 2012, 12:35 AM
This is so stupid. There is no rational reason from preventing these women from wearing their headscarves.

mykarma
Feb 3rd, 2012, 12:36 AM
It would be unfair at the Olympics having to face a team full of headscarfs :shrug:.
What do you think the headscarfs would do to them that showing there hair wouldn't do?

Lord Choc Ice
Feb 3rd, 2012, 12:47 AM
What do you think the headscarfs would do to them that showing there hair wouldn't do?
It would affect opposing team's ability to recognize them as individuals :shrug:. Hair would still be an easier distinguishing trait than a headscarf :lol:.

King Halep
Feb 3rd, 2012, 01:11 AM
imagine trying to run a marathon :happy:

Infiniti2001
Feb 3rd, 2012, 01:24 AM
It would affect opposing team's ability to recognize them as individuals :shrug:. Hair would still be an easier distinguishing trait than a headscarf :lol:.

Precisely.. I mean , it's not one or two players but the whole team.. Please, Iran expects all females to cover up when in their country-- now it's their turn to follow the dress code of others...
P.S. I wouldn't care if these women made the choice to wear the hijab on their own--but the fact that it was forced on them is a whole different story..

mykarma
Feb 3rd, 2012, 01:40 AM
It would affect opposing team's ability to recognize them as individuals :shrug:. Hair would still be an easier distinguishing trait than a headscarf :lol:.
All they need to recognize is their uniform and their own players. Honestly that's a pretty dumb statement. :tape:

Halardfan
Feb 3rd, 2012, 01:41 AM
It's a dilemma...the ideal is definitely that no one wear headscarves during games.

The blame is on the societies and the religion in this case, is God so eager to hide away the female form? Will worlds crumble if males glimpse a womans hair? In a rational society it wouldn't still be the case.

Yet I'm reluctant to deny the women involved the right to play the beautiful game and to perhaps change attitudes to women in their own societies through their skill on the pitch.

So I don't know what is best.

Lord Choc Ice
Feb 3rd, 2012, 01:42 AM
All they need to recognize is their uniform and their own players. Honestly that's a pretty dumb statement. :tape:
In football you mark certain players do you not? :lol:

mykarma
Feb 3rd, 2012, 01:49 AM
Precisely.. I mean , it's not one or two players but the whole team.. Please, Iran expects all females to cover up when in their country-- now it's their turn to follow the dress code of others...
P.S. I wouldn't care if these women made the choice to wear the hijab on their own--but the fact that it was forced on them is a whole different story..
Who said they were forced to wear the scarfs and after all this is the Olympics where countries from all over the world are competing with different cultures and beliefs. One would think this is the last place where intolerance should be practiced in my opinion. Iran isn't asking that all females cover their heads just their team members.

Blu€
Feb 3rd, 2012, 01:58 AM
Who said they were forced to wear the scarfs and after all this is the Olympics where countries from all over the world are competing with different cultures and beliefs.

It's a SPORTS event not a religious parade.

Infiniti2001
Feb 3rd, 2012, 02:01 AM
Who said they were forced to wear the scarfs and after all this is the Olympics where countries from all over the world are competing with different cultures and beliefs. One would think this is the last place where intolerance should be practiced in my opinion. Iran isn't asking that all females cover their heads just their team members.

And this is where the problem lies... These women did not make the choice to wear the hijab.. They are being forced to wear it and are attacked for not covering their heads in their own country...

mykarma
Feb 3rd, 2012, 03:18 AM
In football you mark certain players do you not? :lol:

In America they wear helmets so the opposition can't see their hair, nor does hair have anything to do with a persons position in baseball it's the position they're playing. This is just another situation where the arrogant west believes that everyone has to be as they say. Freedom of religion should be for all not just for everyone that believes like me or you for that matter.

mykarma
Feb 3rd, 2012, 03:25 AM
It's a SPORTS event not a religious parade.
It's the Olympics and a person shouldn't have to deny what they deem as their human rights to compete in that sport. If the scarf gave them some unfair advantage then they should be denied but under these circumstances it's wrong and they shouldn't be denied the opportunity to compete.
Actually according to the bible they might be right and not the west I don't know since I'm not a Christian but no need to demand someone go against their religion to compete. Freedom of religion is a civil right.

mykarma
Feb 3rd, 2012, 03:28 AM
And this is where the problem lies... These women did not make the choice to wear the hijab.. They are being forced to wear it and are attacked for not covering their heads in their own country...
Where in the article did it say that?

njnetswill
Feb 3rd, 2012, 04:19 AM
Is this really about women's rights and individual liberty? What about countries that ban divorce or abortion? Should we ban those countries' players too? The countries are infringing on those women's rights aren't they?

Sports organizations should avoid mixing politics and athletics unless they are willing to actually admit why they are doing it, not some BS "safety" excuse.

Infiniti2001
Feb 3rd, 2012, 04:23 AM
Where in the article did it say that?

It was not in the article, but the world knows this is the reality in Iran today....

Direwolf
Feb 3rd, 2012, 11:16 AM
What if they wore their heahscarves but theyre actually guys inside those scarves.

ranfurly
Feb 3rd, 2012, 11:21 AM
What if they wore their heahscarves but theyre actually guys inside those scarves.

Well then, you would have Transvestites.

pov
Feb 3rd, 2012, 03:26 PM
This is just another situation where the arrogant west believes that everyone has to be as they say.
And Islamic eastern nations accept all cultures doing as they please?

pov
Feb 3rd, 2012, 03:28 PM
My view is that I'd rather not have the headscarves being worn. However if a nation is forcing or demanding that citizens wear them, I think IFAB should make exceptions for it.

mykarma
Feb 3rd, 2012, 04:12 PM
It was not in the article, but the world knows this is the reality in Iran today....
The world according to you. It's really arrogant of you to deny these women the right to compete because you've decided that they have a problem wearing the scarfs even though not one of them has made that statement. Many Muslim women believe they should cover their heads in public as women in the south use to believe they needed to cover their heads in church. They must have been reading the same bible.

mykarma
Feb 3rd, 2012, 04:14 PM
And Islamic eastern nations accept all cultures doing as they please?
So should we use them as an example?

Beat
Feb 3rd, 2012, 04:43 PM
It's a dilemma...the ideal is definitely that no one wear headscarves during games.

The blame is on the societies and the religion in this case, is God so eager to hide away the female form? Will worlds crumble if males glimpse a womans hair? In a rational society it wouldn't still be the case.

Yet I'm reluctant to deny the women involved the right to play the beautiful game and to perhaps change attitudes to women in their own societies through their skill on the pitch.

So I don't know what is best.

sensitive post :yeah:

Who said they were forced to wear the scarfs and after all this is the Olympics where countries from all over the world are competing with different cultures and beliefs. One would think this is the last place where intolerance should be practiced in my opinion. Iran isn't asking that all females cover their heads just their team members.

oh please, don't patronize us. :rolleyes:

wta_zuperfann
Feb 3rd, 2012, 05:06 PM
Years ago China under Mao and subsequent leaders always believed in having modesty in the appearance of its female athletes. It sent its girls gymnastics team into a competition (Olympics?? not really sure after all these years) and the performers were penalized because the gymsuits they wore were not cut above the hip as high as the competition officials wanted. For that reason, the Chinese performers were penalized .2 points. Therefore, notwithstanding religious or cultural preferences, uniformity in appearance has been mandated previously in international sports events so that this action in restricting female athletic appearance is not unprecedented.

Nicolás89
Feb 3rd, 2012, 05:15 PM
It would be unfair at the Olympics having to face a team full of headscarfs :shrug:.

What an irrelevant and idiotic piece of crap. :lol:

The headscarves are being banned as a measure of "safety" not because they represent an unfair advantadge for the team.

azdaja
Feb 3rd, 2012, 05:52 PM
there is no need to make a political issue out of this. the kits used for playing football are rather strictly defined and i remember fifa prohibiting use of sleeveless shirts by a male african team at the world cup once. that was far less of a deviation than headscarves.

mykarma
Feb 3rd, 2012, 06:06 PM
sensitive post :yeah:



oh please, don't patronize us. :rolleyes:
:lol:

gentenaire
Feb 3rd, 2012, 06:51 PM
It's really arrogant of you to deny these women the right to compete

The only ones denying these women to compete are the ones who force them to wear the scarf.

They ARE allowed to compete, they simply must meet the dress regulations, that's all.

KournikovaFan91
Feb 3rd, 2012, 06:54 PM
I feel sorry for these girls at the end of the day at least Iran are willing to send female athletes unlike some muslim countries.

M.S.F
Feb 3rd, 2012, 07:30 PM
JgZovLQBeQo

I don't see any problems here :shrug:

Apoleb
Feb 3rd, 2012, 08:03 PM
The only ones denying these women to compete are the ones who force them to wear the scarf.

They ARE allowed to compete, they simply must meet the dress regulations, that's all.

Oh God, this reminds of "gays can marry, but only from the opposite sex". :tape:

Sports is about accommodation and inclusion. These players are wearing these types of dresses from strictly religious and cultural reasons. I think that's really awful from the FIFA.

Blu€
Feb 3rd, 2012, 08:18 PM
Actually according to the bible they might be right and not the west I don't know since I'm not a Christian but no need to demand someone go against their religion to compete. Freedom of religion is a civil right.

If the world is going to be ruled by what the bible says, "god" help us!

Helen Lawson
Feb 3rd, 2012, 08:42 PM
Let them play! The ban is bs.

Halardfan
Feb 3rd, 2012, 09:36 PM
JgZovLQBeQo

I don't see any problems here :shrug:

I'm glad the Iranian women got to enjoy football, sad that they have to wear that clothing.

Remember that women even being allowed to attend male football games in places like Iran has proved an ordeal in itself. Which is profoundly Neanderthal.

Sam L
Feb 3rd, 2012, 10:43 PM
JgZovLQBeQo

I don't see any problems here :shrug:


They remind me of:

http://www.fiveaa.com.au/lib/images/gallery/normal/cathy-freeman-103947.jpg

lol

Infiniti2001
Feb 4th, 2012, 12:06 AM
The only ones denying these women to compete are the ones who force them to wear the scarf.

They ARE allowed to compete, they simply must meet the dress regulations, that's all.

Thank you--apparently the poster hasn't followed news from Iran :lol:

Infiniti2001
Feb 4th, 2012, 12:07 AM
If the world is going to be ruled by what the bible says, "god" help us!

:facepalm:

ArturoAce.
Feb 4th, 2012, 12:57 AM
My god, just let them play! :o Their hijabs practically look like swim caps; I don't see how this inflicts the play at all.

Halardfan
Feb 4th, 2012, 02:31 AM
My god, just let them play! :o Their hijabs practically look like swim caps; I don't see how this inflicts the play at all.

I think it's regressive...doubtless some women on the team are happy to wear that, doubtless some would not if given the choice. You can argue that the Olympics shouldn't be a part of such regressive symbols.

As I say, maybe this is cancelled out by the chance for Iranian women to fashion a different identity in countries like Iran, to challenge the wider grim and oppressive, male dominated, male dictated systems of such places.

mykarma
Feb 4th, 2012, 02:42 AM
Oh God, this reminds of "gays can marry, but only from the opposite sex". :tape:

Sports is about accommodation and inclusion. These players are wearing these types of dresses from strictly religious and cultural reasons. I think that's really awful from the FIFA.

That says it all.

KournikovaFan91
Feb 4th, 2012, 02:45 AM
I think it's regressive...doubtless some women on the team are happy to wear that, doubtless some would not if given the choice. You can argue that the Olympics shouldn't be a part of such regressive symbols.

As I say, maybe this is cancelled out by the chance for Iranian women to fashion a different identity in countries like Iran, to challenge the wider grim and oppressive, male dominated, male dictated systems of such places.

So you'd rather these girls had no opportunity to play the sport the love at the Olympics when they could be an example to women in more oppressive Muslim countries just because you disagree with the hijab.

Iran is far from the worst country in terms of women's rights, 60% of the university population are female.

Iran currently have 6 female athletes qualified for 2012. Qatar are only know considering sending women to the Olympics, Saudi Arabia looks unlikely to send anyone and Brunei is similar to Saudi Arabia.

Iran's 6 female athletes is double the number from Beijing, why punish Iran when it seems to actually be improving where women in sport is concerned.

Halardfan
Feb 4th, 2012, 03:06 AM
So you'd rather these girls had no opportunity to play the sport the love at the Olympics when they could be an example to women in more oppressive Muslim countries just because you disagree with the hijab.

Iran is far from the worst country in terms of women's rights, 60% of the university population are female.

Iran currently have 6 female athletes qualified for 2012. Qatar are only know considering sending women to the Olympics, Saudi Arabia looks unlikely to send anyone and Brunei is similar to Saudi Arabia.

Iran's 6 female athletes is double the number from Beijing, why punish Iran when it seems to actually be improving where women in sport is concerned.

Not quite what I said...I'm saying that personally for me I see the attire as a symbol of religious oppression BUT that perhaps the chance for them to compete would have been a positive step for change in countries like Iran.

Maybe the Iranian mens team should be made to wear those outfits? Oh wait, that would be humiliating for them...

gentenaire
Feb 4th, 2012, 08:42 AM
Oh God, this reminds of "gays can marry, but only from the opposite sex". :tape:.

Homosexuality isn't a choice, religion is. Big difference.

OTOH, wearing the hijab isn't really a choice for these women so I suppose in this case the the comparison does hold some kind of merit. The fact remains that it's the ones who're forcing these women to wear the hijab that should be attacked.

No, it's not that big a deal that these women would wear a scarf on the field, just like it's not that big a deal should some player demand to wear a red outfit at Wimbledon, just like it's not that big a deal should male tennis player decide to compete topless, etc. The point is, I don't see why exceptions should be made for religious reasons. I don't see why religion should be considered a more important reason than other reasons.

Ashi
Feb 4th, 2012, 08:50 AM
JgZovLQBeQo

I don't see any problems here :shrug:
This x 100.

I've seen women wearing a full hijab compete in speed rock climbing at the XGAMES, and winning against scantily clad western counterparts too. :shrug:

What if it's a choice these athletes are taking? What if they don't want to get on to the football field without a headscarf?. Blanket statements that they are forced to do so, are unfair IMO.

mykarma
Feb 4th, 2012, 04:24 PM
This x 100.

I've seen women wearing a full hijab compete in speed rock climbing at the XGAMES, and winning against scantily clad western counterparts too. :shrug:

What if it's a choice these athletes are taking? What if they don't want to get on to the football field without a headscarf?. Blanket statements that they are forced to do so, are unfair IMO.
Exactly. Not one of the Iranian women has spoken out against wearing the scarf but some are using that has there argument. Acception to the rules are not out of the question in this case. The scarfs are not a danger to anyone so let them play. When the rules were made the governing body probably didn't have think of a situation like this. Just shows how important it is to have diversity in all aspects of life.

Apoleb
Feb 4th, 2012, 05:12 PM
Homosexuality isn't a choice, religion is. Big difference.

OTOH, wearing the hijab isn't really a choice for these women so I suppose in this case the the comparison does hold some kind of merit. The fact remains that it's the ones who're forcing these women to wear the hijab that should be attacked.

No, it's not that big a deal that these women would wear a scarf on the field, just like it's not that big a deal should some player demand to wear a red outfit at Wimbledon, just like it's not that big a deal should male tennis player decide to compete topless, etc. The point is, I don't see why exceptions should be made for religious reasons. I don't see why religion should be considered a more important reason than other reasons.

Cultural and religious reasons can't be put at the same level as individual reasons. They are also not as much of a "choice" as you're implying. People don't decide their religion, and for most of them, it takes a hell lot of psychological trauma to get out of it.

Furthermore, one may ask why can't the women play naked? The fact that they aren't allowed already portrays a certain cultural/religious bias.

Bottom point, the Olympics isn't the forum to discuss the merits of ideals or to favor one or the other. It's supposed to be for inclusion for people with different backgrounds. They should make every effort to live up to that, instead of banning countries because of their cultural/religious practices.

A Magicman
Feb 4th, 2012, 08:24 PM
Non of the relevant countries in women's soccer (which is like paralympics already) is gonna be affected by this ban, so what is this fuzz about that the Asian soccer federation feels compelled to ask the FIFA about changing the rule?!

No Muslim country has made it through the qualies anyway. Not a single one.

Tempest in a teapot and once again testing the borders.

One of those ever complaning countries is gonna have other problems than women's soccer by summer anyway.

Edward.
Feb 4th, 2012, 09:55 PM
I think this ban is ridiculous.

http://www.payvand.com/news/08/sep/Iranian-Women-Football3.jpg

Their faces are clearly visible so I don't think that argument carries much weight. I don't find it a big deal in the slightest.

Chrissie-fan
Feb 4th, 2012, 10:25 PM
imagine trying to run a marathon :happy:
Imagine swimming or diving.

Blu€
Feb 5th, 2012, 12:38 AM
No, it's not that big a deal that these women would wear a scarf on the field, just like it's not that big a deal should some player demand to wear a red outfit at Wimbledon, just like it's not that big a deal should male tennis player decide to compete topless, etc. The point is, I don't see why exceptions should be made for religious reasons. I don't see why religion should be considered a more important reason than other reasons.

Agreed.

wta_zuperfann
Feb 5th, 2012, 01:11 AM
Imagine doing synchronized swimming in that type of outfit.

On second thought ~ don't.

Halardfan
Feb 5th, 2012, 01:26 AM
Exactly. Not one of the Iranian women has spoken out against wearing the scarf but some are using that has there argument. Acception to the rules are not out of the question in this case. The scarfs are not a danger to anyone so let them play. When the rules were made the governing body probably didn't have think of a situation like this. Just shows how important it is to have diversity in all aspects of life.

The women are not from a countries you could describe as free...if one of the women were to make a stand against wearing it, it runs risks.

The headscarf represents the inferior place of women within such a belief system... women don't have a choice to wear it in such countries whether on the football field or in their daily lives. Western female reporters visiting such countries are forced to adapt and wear the headscarf too. Should we accept that too?

I'm not saying it should be banned, but I am saying that countries make their women wear such things is a very bad thing.

canuckfan
Feb 5th, 2012, 02:07 AM
Sorry to be blunt, but there's no way any of these teams were getting anywhere close to the Olympics anyway. If anything, the disqualification saved them from being destroyed 10-0 by Japan or Australia in the last round of qualifications.

Darop.
Feb 5th, 2012, 11:56 AM
The women are not from a countries you could describe as free...if one of the women were to make a stand against wearing it, it runs risks.

The headscarf represents the inferior place of women within such a belief system... women don't have a choice to wear it in such countries whether on the football field or in their daily lives. Western female reporters visiting such countries are forced to adapt and wear the headscarf too. Should we accept that too?

I'm not saying it should be banned, but I am saying that countries make their women wear such things is a very bad thing.

Throughout this thread you've demonstrated a great knowledge of societal and cultural history of mankind, congrats! Each post more informative than the last, each one giving new information and never just repeating the same old crap! Keep up the good work and the smart comments!! :yeah:

[/sarcasm]

Halardfan
Feb 5th, 2012, 03:29 PM
Throughout this thread you've demonstrated a great knowledge of societal and cultural history of mankind, congrats! Each post more informative than the last, each one giving new information and never just repeating the same old crap! Keep up the good work and the smart comments!! :yeah:

[/sarcasm]

If country A makes its women wear a headscarf in public, do you think its a good thing or a bad thing? I think it's a bad thing. Is that such an outlandish position?

Darop.
Feb 5th, 2012, 03:49 PM
If country A makes its women wear a headscarf in public, do you think its a good thing or a bad thing? I think it's a bad thing. Is that such an outlandish position?

I also think it is a bad thing, but the countries in which the headscarf is compulsory are countries under Shari'a law which are no doubt a vast minority, and your issues with the headscarf, as you've demonstrated in this and many other threads, go well beyond that, demonstrating your little/none understading of the matter.
You see it as something degrading which is tied only to religion, and that is where you are completely wrong. It is something that over the years has become part of society and follows social rules more than religious ones.
In many other arab countries there is indeed a component of social pressure and many times even fashion. But there are many things that women do in the western world for reasons of social pressure as well, but which we've just become "used to" (obsession with weight, having to be aesthetically pleasing, shaving all body hairs possible, etc...).


Back to the thread, there is no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to play with headscarves. Their faces remain completely recognizable, and they have jerseys with numbers and names. According to this principle, a team of players who all have shaved heads or identical haircuts should also be prohibited from playing.

Halardfan
Feb 5th, 2012, 04:15 PM
I also think it is a bad thing, but the countries in which the headscarf is compulsory are countries under Shari'a law which are no doubt a vast minority, and your issues with the headscarf, as you've demonstrated in this and many other threads, go well beyond that, demonstrating your little/none understading of the matter.
You see it as something degrading which is tied only to religion, and that is where you are completely wrong. It is something that over the years has become part of society and follows social rules more than religious ones.
In many other arab countries there is indeed a component of social pressure and many times even fashion. But there are many things that women do in the western world for reasons of social pressure as well, but which we've just become "used to" (obsession with weight, having to be aesthetically pleasing, shaving all body hairs possible, etc...).

Back to the thread, there is no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to play with headscarves. Their faces remain completely recognizable, and they have jerseys with numbers and names. According to this principle, a team of players who all have shaved heads or identical haircuts should also be prohibited from playing.

I would suggest there is correlation between countries that enforce the wearing of the headscarf in public and those that enforce it in sports...if women are allowed to compete at all, or even spectate at all at certain events.

There is a difference between social pressure and being punished by the law if you don't wear the thing.

Put aside where it comes from...imposing it on every woman is wrong.

Again to the issue, I'd be reluctant to ban them for the reasons I previously mentioned.

Darop.
Feb 5th, 2012, 04:33 PM
I would suggest there is correlation between countries that enforce the wearing of the headscarf in public and those that enforce it in sports...if women are allowed to compete at all, or even spectate at all at certain events.

There is a difference between social pressure and being punished by the law if you don't wear the thing.

Put aside where it comes from...imposing it on every woman is wrong.

Again to the issue, I'd be reluctant to ban them for the reasons I previously mentioned.

Total non-sequitur. Have a good day :)

Halardfan
Feb 5th, 2012, 04:59 PM
Total non-sequitur. Have a good day :)

I meant previously mentioned in my earlier posts...i.e that competing and being seen by their fellow countrymen and women might change attitudes towards womens roles in those countries...

If you read my posts a bit more carefully you might have noticed they weren't quite as wholly negative as you seem to make out.

mykarma
Feb 5th, 2012, 06:42 PM
If country A makes its women wear a headscarf in public, do you think its a good thing or a bad thing? I think it's a bad thing. Is that such an outlandish position?

You have that right but you trying to force your right on another culture. I know Muslim women that live in the U.S. with no family members here and they wear their scarfs by choice. There are others that don't wear the scarfs here but wear them at home not because they'll be murdered but because they respect their culture. Please stop assuming you know how these women feel about wearing those scarfs because you don't. In addition there are a lot more pressing things that I care about than whether women scarfs in their country or not.

Halardfan
Feb 5th, 2012, 11:38 PM
You have that right but you trying to force your right on another culture. I know Muslim women that live in the U.S. with no family members here and they wear their scarfs by choice. There are others that don't wear the scarfs here but wear them at home not because they'll be murdered but because they respect their culture. Please stop assuming you know how these women feel about wearing those scarfs because you don't. In addition there are a lot more pressing things that I care about than whether women scarfs in their country or not.

I never called for the headscarf to be banned on the football pitch. I said I personally do not like it, but there are mitigating circumstances that make it a hard call.

How about the rule is, players can wear the headscarf/trousers/sweater combo if they choose...but if a player on that team wants to wear a normal football kit, no problem?

How about they let women into stadiums to watch mens games? The fact that they don't is reason enough to ban the mens team from international competition. Or is that merely another cultural difference we have to meekly accept?

mykarma
Feb 6th, 2012, 01:35 PM
I never called for the headscarf to be banned on the football pitch. I said I personally do not like it, but there are mitigating circumstances that make it a hard call.

How about the rule is, players can wear the headscarf/trousers/sweater combo if they choose...but if a player on that team wants to wear a normal football kit, no problem?

How about they let women into stadiums to watch mens games? The fact that they don't is reason enough to ban the mens team from international competition. Or is that merely another cultural difference we have to meekly accept?
Yes, it's not our damn business. This is a sports competition which is suppose to bring good will not the west banning a sports team because a nation is doing something we personally disapprove of.

Darop.
Feb 6th, 2012, 02:07 PM
How about the rule is, players can wear the headscarf/trousers/sweater combo if they choose...but if a player on that team wants to wear a normal football kit, no problem?


And......... where in the article does it say that these players are forced to wear the headscarves? :lol: Maybe they actually are, maybe they aren't, but you're just assuming that, which brought you way off track the thread's main argument. Once again, because your issues with the headscarf are totally wacko and exagerated and you reduce everything down to "God and female inferiority", once again, demostrating you really don't understand the whole matter at all.

Halardfan
Feb 6th, 2012, 02:44 PM
And......... where in the article does it say that these players are forced to wear the headscarves? :lol: Maybe they actually are, maybe they aren't, but you're just assuming that, which brought you way off track the thread's main argument. Once again, because your issues with the headscarf are totally wacko and exagerated and you reduce everything down to "God and female inferiority", once again, demostrating you really don't understand the whole matter at all.

As far as I am aware the headscarf is compulsory in Iran. As far as I have read the team have to wear it during home games and abroad.

Halardfan
Feb 6th, 2012, 02:51 PM
Yes, it's not our damn business. This is a sports competition which is suppose to bring good will not the west banning a sports team because a nation is doing something we personally disapprove of.

Did you hold a similar attitude to apartheid South Africa? That nation faced various sports boycotts which I whole heartedly supported.
Was I wrong to do so? Should I have concluded that while I disapproved of Apartheid, it was none of our damn business and the boycotts should have been stopped?

mykarma
Feb 6th, 2012, 03:47 PM
Did you hold a similar attitude to apartheid South Africa? That nation faced various sports boycotts which I whole heartedly supported.
Was I wrong to do so? Should I have concluded that while I disapproved of Apartheid, it was none of our damn business and the boycotts should have been stopped?
So now you're comparing apartheid with someone being allowed to wear a headscarf in the Olympics. Child give it up and I'm through responding to you cause that's totally wild.

Wigglytuff
Feb 6th, 2012, 06:20 PM
The only ones denying these women to compete are the ones who force them to wear the scarf.

They ARE allowed to compete, they simply must meet the dress regulations, that's all.

wow, how sexist and anti-woman to assume that women are too inferior to decide FOR THEMSELVES what what they want to wear.

its still so shocking that so many people refuse to allow women the right to wear what they want. religious zealots do it, but so do sexist anti-woman zealots.

Wigglytuff
Feb 6th, 2012, 06:24 PM
Did you hold a similar attitude to apartheid South Africa? That nation faced various sports boycotts which I whole heartedly supported.
Was I wrong to do so? Should I have concluded that while I disapproved of Apartheid, it was none of our damn business and the boycotts should have been stopped?

you CAN NOT compare abuse and attacks on people based on race with the choice to wear a scarf. to do so shows so little regard for the lives of those killed during apartheid. its shameful and dangerous.

Nicolás89
Feb 6th, 2012, 06:49 PM
Did you hold a similar attitude to apartheid South Africa? That nation faced various sports boycotts which I whole heartedly supported.
Was I wrong to do so? Should I have concluded that while I disapproved of Apartheid, it was none of our damn business and the boycotts should have been stopped?

Wow! that's an.....interesting point of view.

azdaja
Feb 6th, 2012, 08:02 PM
Did you hold a similar attitude to apartheid South Africa? That nation faced various sports boycotts which I whole heartedly supported.
Was I wrong to do so? Should I have concluded that while I disapproved of Apartheid, it was none of our damn business and the boycotts should have been stopped?
i think the boycotts and sanctions against south africa can't be compared to any that have happened since. the main reason the sanctions against south africa were successful was that the majority of south africans (the oppressed black majority) supported them. there is not enough support for such actions against iran within the country. i use the same argument when arguing those who want similar actions against israel as well. sanctions were epic fail in all other cases to different degrees, hurting ordinary people more than the ruling elite and turning them more nationalist and conservative.

it should also be noted that the ruling elites in the us and the uk were dragged kicking and screaming into isolating south africa while they are more than happy about bullying and demonising iran.

having said that i don't have a strong opinion on this ban. even if some women want to wear a headscarf, the women in the west also accepted to dress like men with time in order to play football. perhaps that's the better way to emancipation? or is tolerance and inclusion the way? i don't know in this case.

gentenaire
Feb 6th, 2012, 10:09 PM
I also think it is a bad thing, but the countries in which the headscarf is compulsory are countries under Shari'a law which are no doubt a vast minority, and your issues with the headscarf, as you've demonstrated in this and many other threads, go well beyond that, demonstrating your little/none understading of the matter.
You see it as something degrading which is tied only to religion, and that is where you are completely wrong.

I remember a very interesting interview with young immigrant muslims. They were glad to finally be interviewed since it seems a lot of the discussions about immigrations and islam revolve around them, but they're not included in the discussions.
I thought it was a very interesting interview and it set the record straight on quite a few misconceptions. The muslims who were interviewed seemed to have modern ideas, etc. But then the last question shocked me. They asked the boys if they would ever consider marrying a girl who doesn't wear the scarf. Every single one of them replied no.
So is it a choice for the girls? No, it isn't, not even in modern countries. If they have to completely alienate their family, it's not worth the fight.

It's frustrating for school teachers too. Teachers I spoke to lamented the fact that they teach bright, promising, fiery young girls who could go to university and become doctors and engineers but when they meet them again a year after they've graduated from high school, they're pushing a pram, wearing the scarf, married off to some complete stranger. It's sad.

A few years ago there was a lot of fuss when a school with a lot of muslim students decided to ban the headscarf. The reason the headmistress decided on the ban was because she noticed students were under pressure by other students to wear the scarf. There was a whole 'holier than thou' attitude going on. Girls who didn't wear the scarf when they started school, started wearing it after a while because they were accused by others of not being decent muslims. Since a school shouldn't be a place where you're under this kind of pressure, the headmistress decided on the ban. There were students who left the school because of it. There were other students who secretly thanked the headmistress, who were relieved the pressure was gone and at least at school they wouldn't have to wear it.

Apoleb
Feb 6th, 2012, 10:14 PM
Teachers I spoke to lamented the fact that they teach bright, promising, fiery young girls who could go to university and become doctors and engineers but when they meet them again a year after they've graduated from high school, they're pushing a pram, wearing the scarf, married off to some complete stranger. It's sad.

Please. :lol: What does the scarf have to do with anything here? There are plenty of female surgeons who wear scarfs.

Anyway, I don't approve of the scarf in general, but Westerners need to far less arrogant on this issue. The model of femininity in the West isn't exactly a beacon of feminism. Some women and feminists will argue that the scarf gives off the message that looks are secondary to the social role of the woman. Whatever. The Olympics isn't the place to reward this or not.

Halepsova
Feb 6th, 2012, 10:26 PM
:sad:

Halardfan
Feb 6th, 2012, 11:03 PM
you CAN NOT compare abuse and attacks on people based on race with the choice to wear a scarf. to do so shows so little regard for the lives of those killed during apartheid. its shameful and dangerous.


Discrimination based on Race or Gender are both wrong.

At least in some Muslim countries wearing the headscarf is not a choice, even if the women is not a Muslim.

In Iran women are banned from stadiums when the mens national team play. Surely a policy with echos of South African segregationist policies.

Again, as far as I am aware the Iranian team have to wear the headscarf.

Halardfan
Feb 6th, 2012, 11:11 PM
So now you're comparing apartheid with someone being allowed to wear a headscarf in the Olympics. Child give it up and I'm through responding to you cause that's totally wild.

The main point my comparison is this...in relation to your stated view, why was Apartheid South Africa our business? Why did Apartheid South Africa override your stated principle.

Your stated principle seemed to be that events in other countries are, as you stated, none of our goddam business, and that Sporting bans were an inappropriate tool.

At some point then, it becomes our business. Just we might draw the line in different places.

mykarma
Feb 6th, 2012, 11:15 PM
Please. :lol: What does the scarf have to do with anything here? There are plenty of female surgeons who wear scarfs.

Anyway, I don't approve of the scarf in general, but Westerners need to far less arrogant on this issue. The model of femininity in the West isn't exactly a beacon of feminism. Some women and feminists will argue that the scarf gives off the message that looks are secondary to the social role of the woman. Whatever. The Olympics isn't the place to reward this or not.
Thank you

Infiniti2001
Feb 7th, 2012, 12:23 AM
This was so last year---June to be exact... :lol: Iran was never gonna qualify for the Olympics in the first place. Why is this even a topic of discussion now?

Darop.
Feb 7th, 2012, 01:59 AM
I remember a very interesting interview with young immigrant muslims. They were glad to finally be interviewed since it seems a lot of the discussions about immigrations and islam revolve around them, but they're not included in the discussions.
I thought it was a very interesting interview and it set the record straight on quite a few misconceptions. The muslims who were interviewed seemed to have modern ideas, etc. But then the last question shocked me. They asked the boys if they would ever consider marrying a girl who doesn't wear the scarf. Every single one of them replied no.
So is it a choice for the girls? No, it isn't, not even in modern countries. If they have to completely alienate their family, it's not worth the fight.

It's frustrating for school teachers too. Teachers I spoke to lamented the fact that they teach bright, promising, fiery young girls who could go to university and become doctors and engineers but when they meet them again a year after they've graduated from high school, they're pushing a pram, wearing the scarf, married off to some complete stranger. It's sad.

A few years ago there was a lot of fuss when a school with a lot of muslim students decided to ban the headscarf. The reason the headmistress decided on the ban was because she noticed students were under pressure by other students to wear the scarf. There was a whole 'holier than thou' attitude going on. Girls who didn't wear the scarf when they started school, started wearing it after a while because they were accused by others of not being decent muslims. Since a school shouldn't be a place where you're under this kind of pressure, the headmistress decided on the ban. There were students who left the school because of it. There were other students who secretly thanked the headmistress, who were relieved the pressure was gone and at least at school they wouldn't have to wear it.

:lol:

This is really laughable as you don't understand that people of all cultures experience social pressure, it's completely natural, albeit harmful in some cases.
Ask a bunch of american teen boys if they'd want to date a girl who doesn't shave her legs or armpits, who doesn't pluck her eyebrows, who has a bit of a belly. I want to see what they'll answer you.

Same thing goes for the school where the scarf was banned. It's ridiculous, they should also ban leg shaving, eyebrow plucking and make up as you'd be surprised how many teen girls get into doing that just because they feel the pressure of their peers.

I don't blindly defend the scarf, but as far as the "western" world is concerned: take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.



It's frustrating for school teachers too. Teachers I spoke to lamented the fact that they teach bright, promising, fiery young girls who could go to university and become doctors and engineers but when they meet them again a year after they've graduated from high school, they're pushing a pram, wearing the scarf, married off to some complete stranger. It's sad.


Yes, because being a succesful money-making high class worker is the only thing that makes a woman's life worth living, while those who tend to their children and family are a disgrace and a complete waste of breathable air. :rolleyes:

Darop.
Feb 7th, 2012, 02:00 AM
Discrimination based on Race or Gender are both wrong.

At least in some Muslim countries wearing the headscarf is not a choice, even if the women is not a Muslim.

In Iran women are banned from stadiums when the mens national team play. Surely a policy with echos of South African segregationist policies.

Again, as far as I am aware the Iranian team have to wear the headscarf.

In many arab countries men are also banned from watching females engage in sporting activity. Are the men too in this case victims of apartheid? :rolleyes:

This was so last year---June to be exact... :lol: Iran was never gonna qualify for the Olympics in the first place. Why is this even a topic of discussion now?

Something called a "matter of principle".

Halardfan
Feb 7th, 2012, 02:14 AM
In many arab countries men are also banned from watching females engage in sporting activity. Are the men too in this case victims of apartheid? :rolleyes:



Something called a "matter of principle".

If the UK were to decide to ban women from attending Premier league games, you would seriously have no objection to that? You would seriously expect FIFA to have no objection or sanction in regards to it?

You said banning the headscarf is ridiculous. Is not a nation forcing all its female citizens to wear headscarfs even more ridiculous?

To repeat, I never even said I supported the ban in this headscarf case!!! That is the most frustrating thing! I said I didn't know what was best to do in that situation and it was a dilemma.

gentenaire
Feb 7th, 2012, 06:16 AM
:lol:

This is really laughable as you don't understand that people of all cultures experience social pressure,

The force of the pressure is teeny weeny little bit different. I don't have to break away from my family should I decide not to shave my legs. I don't have hear I'm going to go to hell should I decide not to shave my armpits.


Yes, because being a succesful money-making high class worker is the only thing that makes a woman's life worth living, while those who tend to their children and family are a disgrace and a complete waste of breathable air.

Thank you for completely misunderstanding what I wrote.
it IS a disgrace if these girls wanted to be successful but were forced to marry a stranger, and that is so often the case.

Darop.
Feb 7th, 2012, 11:28 AM
If the UK were to decide to ban women from attending Premier league games, you would seriously have no objection to that? You would seriously expect FIFA to have no objection or sanction in regards to it?

You said banning the headscarf is ridiculous. Is not a nation forcing all its female citizens to wear headscarfs even more ridiculous?

To repeat, I never even said I supported the ban in this headscarf case!!! That is the most frustrating thing! I said I didn't know what was best to do in that situation and it was a dilemma.
It was to make you realize that it had nothing to do with female inferiority.

Forcing people to wear the scarf is ridiculous, but for an institution in the "free western" world to outlaw it is absolutely outrageous.

The force of the pressure is teeny weeny little bit different. I don't have to break away from my family should I decide not to shave my legs. I don't have hear I'm going to go to hell should I decide not to shave my armpits.

Thank you for completely misunderstanding what I wrote.
it IS a disgrace if these girls wanted to be successful but were forced to marry a stranger, and that is so often the case.

I have NO IDEA where you get your information from, but it's completely wack. You still think that arab countries are like in 500 b.c. where men have 7 wives each and the women are forced to marry a man they don't even know. :lol:


It's really useless talking to you two, stuck in your own outdated ideas, bye bye :wavey:

mykarma
Feb 7th, 2012, 02:56 PM
:lol:

This is really laughable as you don't understand that people of all cultures experience social pressure, it's completely natural, albeit harmful in some cases.
Ask a bunch of american teen boys if they'd want to date a girl who doesn't shave her legs or armpits, who doesn't pluck her eyebrows, who has a bit of a belly. I want to see what they'll answer you.

Same thing goes for the school where the scarf was banned. It's ridiculous, they should also ban leg shaving, eyebrow plucking and make up as you'd be surprised how many teen girls get into doing that just because they feel the pressure of their peers.

I don't blindly defend the scarf, but as far as the "western" world is concerned: take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.



Yes, because being a succesful money-making high class worker is the only thing that makes a woman's life worth living, while those who tend to their children and family are a disgrace and a complete waste of breathable air. :rolleyes:

In many arab countries men are also banned from watching females engage in sporting activity. Are the men too in this case victims of apartheid? :rolleyes:



Something called a "matter of principle".

It was to make you realize that it had nothing to do with female inferiority.

Forcing people to wear the scarf is ridiculous, but for an institution in the "free western" world to outlaw it is absolutely outrageous.



I have NO IDEA where you get your information from, but it's completely wack. You still think that arab countries are like in 500 b.c. where men have 7 wives each and the women are forced to marry a man they don't even know. :lol:


It's really useless talking to you two, stuck in your own outdated ideas, bye bye :wavey:
You must spread reps around before giving reps...

gentenaire
Feb 7th, 2012, 05:23 PM
but for an institution in the "free western" world to outlaw it is absolutely outrageous.

They're not outlawing it, they simply don't see why existing rules should be changed for religious reasons.


I have NO IDEA where you get your information from, but it's completely wack. You still think that arab countries are like in 500 b.c. where men have 7 wives each and the women are forced to marry a man they don't even know. :lol:

So our government institutions that were set out to help and protect women who're fleeing from a forced marriage can be abolished? That's good news, tax money saved!

I don't have stats for Belgium, in Holland, apparently some 800 girls a year (two a day) are forced into a marriage they don't want.

But I'm glad that you at least admit that these kind of practices shouldn't be happening in our modern times, that they belong in 500 BC. A shame that they do still happen.

Freakan
Feb 7th, 2012, 07:57 PM
Countries like Iran don't allow their own female players to participate in tennis tournaments - they don't host women's tournaments (but they do host men's ITFs) and junior tournaments there are only for boys (all other junior tournaments are joint events). I really don't see any reason why anyone else should change/bend rules for countries like these..

mykarma
Feb 8th, 2012, 12:06 AM
Countries like Iran don't allow their own female players to participate in tennis tournaments - they don't host women's tournaments (but they do host men's ITFs) and junior tournaments there are only for boys (all other junior tournaments are joint events). I really don't see any reason why anyone else should change/bend rules for countries like these..

How about for the athletics especially since it's the Olympics which is suppose to be for good will and embrace the world through sports.

M.S.F
Feb 8th, 2012, 12:22 AM
Countries like Iran don't allow their own female players to participate in tennis tournaments - they don't host women's tournaments (but they do host men's ITFs) and junior tournaments there are only for boys (all other junior tournaments are joint events). I really don't see any reason why anyone else should change/bend rules for countries like these..

Iran played two times in Fed Cup (1972 and 2009)

http://i43.tinypic.com/ay8rp3.jpg

http://www1.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Fed+Cup+Asia+Oceania+Zone+Group+1+2+Day+3+oARrTypi ZSDl.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_daUb0TxWVeU/SZQeC5FSKDI/AAAAAAAAAF4/zB7gPTgbBSY/s1600/Madona+Najarian+%28L%29+and+doubles+partner+Ani+Na zari+%28R%29+of+Iran+resume+their+match+against+Ke ong+Si+Ying+Julienne+and+Lim+Hui+Carolyn+Ann+of+Si ngapore+during+their+Fed+Cup+AsiaOceania+Group+II+ doubles.jpg

Halardfan
Feb 8th, 2012, 01:46 AM
I think there is a looming challenge for those of us of a liberal, leftish slant. Which despite how some characterised me in this thread, I am.

A belief in women's rights, gay rights has long been a part of that movement, pursuing equality.

Side by side has been a desire to respect diversity, and promote tolerance of other of cultures.

All these are noble ideas. Yet extreme elements of Islam present a dilemma, and I believe increasingly may force a choice between competing ideals.

Put simply, preaching tolerance for the fundamentalist wing of Islam is incompatible with promoting things like Womens rights, Gay rights.

We liberals are frequently happy to criticise fundamentalist Christianity...which I have done time and time again on the these boards. But my perception is that sometimes we liberals are reluctant to criticise Islam for things that would outrage us if it were some Christian group in question.

RVD
Feb 8th, 2012, 03:26 AM
This sort of reminds me of the American politicians and a certain American political party's incessant attempt to control a women uterus here in the US.
It's a good thing that that uterus is inside the women, otherwise it would likely be banned or outlawed as well.

Topic-wise:
I've always been an advocate for woman's rights.
It's odd that Western nations laud Human Rights yet personal choices get trampled.
I believe IFAB has, in this case, demonstrated undeniable discrimination.
Ultimately, it is the right and responsibility of the Iranian women to fight for their rights, and not have to also face outside adversity on the very same issue as well.
I feel for these young ladies.

Halardfan
Feb 8th, 2012, 05:52 AM
This sort of reminds me of the American politicians and a certain American political party's incessant attempt to control a women uterus here in the US.
It's a good thing that that uterus is inside the women, otherwise it would likely be banned or outlawed as well.

Topic-wise:
I've always been an advocate for woman's rights.
It's odd that Western nations laud Human Rights yet personal choices get trampled.
I believe IFAB has, in this case, demonstrated undeniable discrimination.
Ultimately, it is the right and responsibility of the Iranian women to fight for their rights, and not have to also face outside adversity on the very same issue as well.
I feel for these young ladies.

In the ideal world a sensible compromise would be to allow the headscarf and the rest for any individual player who wishes to wear it. But as a natural balance ask the Iranian FA in this example to enshrine the right of their players to wear a regular football kit, without the body covering and head covering if they so desire with no fear of sanction?

That seems sensible and respectful and liberal to me.

volta
Feb 8th, 2012, 12:42 PM
>>>>>>>1q

Darop.
Feb 8th, 2012, 01:15 PM
They're not outlawing it, they simply don't see why existing rules should be changed for religious reasons.



So our government institutions that were set out to help and protect women who're fleeing from a forced marriage can be abolished? That's good news, tax money saved!

I don't have stats for Belgium, in Holland, apparently some 800 girls a year (two a day) are forced into a marriage they don't want.

But I'm glad that you at least admit that these kind of practices shouldn't be happening in our modern times, that they belong in 500 BC. A shame that they do still happen.

There's no doubt that forced marriage is a practice that happens in many places of the world, and it is an abomination, but 1) this has nothing to do with the veil 2) it's disgusting to me how people tend to generalize and think that this happens to all arab women, while in reality it happens to a great minority, and it's just a myth leftover from passed times. Of course it happens in many rural ares of arab/islamic countries: but it's also a widespread phenomenon in Asia, the Balkans, and even in many southern small towns of Italy, a founding country of the EU! :weirdo: People tend to reduce Islamic culture down to religion, but it's not that easy. Religion, culture and society in certain parts of the world form and indistinguishable mixture which can often be difficult for us to understand.
Each culture has it's barriers and limits which hopefully with time will be surpassed. Can you believe that still in many "modern and civilized" first world countries women still can't decide what they want to do with their uterus? they can't legally and easily have an abortion, nor get artificial insemination? Can you believe that in the western world RELIGION has blocked amazing scientifical progress, like stem cell research? :lol:
This is why I think it's much too easy to just point fingers to other cultures without fully understanding everything that goes on.

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 8th, 2012, 01:18 PM
some of the bigots here....

Darop.
Feb 8th, 2012, 01:28 PM
Countries like Iran don't allow their own female players to participate in tennis tournaments - they don't host women's tournaments (but they do host men's ITFs) and junior tournaments there are only for boys (all other junior tournaments are joint events). I really don't see any reason why anyone else should change/bend rules for countries like these..

They played fedcup last week as well, with a 1-14 record playing 5 ties (no surprise why they don't play more often when they lose 0-3 to Philippines winning only 1 game :tape: ):
http://www.fedcup.com/en/results/group-ii/asia-oceania/2012.aspx

Talula
Feb 8th, 2012, 01:51 PM
This is so stupid. There is no rational reason from preventing these women from wearing their headscarves.

Agree.

All this does is fuel the culture clash and the perception that the West is out to get different cultures.

mykarma
Feb 8th, 2012, 01:52 PM
There's no doubt that forced marriage is a practice that happens in many places of the world, and it is an abomination, but 1) this has nothing to do with the veil 2) it's disgusting to me how people tend to generalize and think that this happens to all arab women, while in reality it happens to a great minority, and it's just a myth leftover from passed times. Of course it happens in many rural ares of arab/islamic countries: but it's also a widespread phenomenon in Asia, the Balkans, and even in many southern small towns of Italy, a founding country of the EU! :weirdo: People tend to reduce Islamic culture down to religion, but it's not that easy. Religion, culture and society in certain parts of the world form and indistinguishable mixture which can often be difficult for us to understand.
Each culture has it's barriers and limits which hopefully with time will be surpassed. Can you believe that still in many "modern and civilized" first world countries women still can't decide what they want to do with their uterus? they can't legally and easily have an abortion, nor get artificial insemination? Can you believe that in the western world RELIGION has blocked amazing scientifical progress, like stem cell research? :lol:
This is why I think it's much too easy to just point fingers to other cultures without fully understanding everything that goes on.
My point exactly. I can't believe these people trying to decide what's best for another country when there's so much work left to do in their own. The arrogance of some of these posters is mind boggling.

Talula
Feb 8th, 2012, 01:59 PM
Iran played two times in Fed Cup (1972 and 2009)

http://i43.tinypic.com/ay8rp3.jpg

http://www1.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Fed+Cup+Asia+Oceania+Zone+Group+1+2+Day+3+oARrTypi ZSDl.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_daUb0TxWVeU/SZQeC5FSKDI/AAAAAAAAAF4/zB7gPTgbBSY/s1600/Madona+Najarian+%28L%29+and+doubles+partner+Ani+Na zari+%28R%29+of+Iran+resume+their+match+against+Ke ong+Si+Ying+Julienne+and+Lim+Hui+Carolyn+Ann+of+Si ngapore+during+their+Fed+Cup+AsiaOceania+Group+II+ doubles.jpg

I personally see nothing wrong with this form if dress. I see it every day here in London, and don't understand why some people laugh at it or find it threatening. Compared to how many Western girls dress which is often ugly and nasty.

Talula
Feb 8th, 2012, 02:03 PM
My point exactly. I can't believe these people trying to decide what's best for another country when there's so much work left to do in their own. The arrogance of some of these posters is mind boggling.

Exactly. Look at how women are treated in Western magazines, newspapers and movies. Look at the depths female singers and actresses have to stoop to. Girls now are sexualised at ver early ages. The West is not in a position to preach or impose its own (low) standards on other cultures. What on earth makes people think they should?

Ashi
Feb 8th, 2012, 02:26 PM
Exactly. Look at how women are treated in Western magazines, newspapers and movies. Look at the depths female singers and actresses have to stoop to. Girls now are sexualised at ver early ages. The West is not in a position to preach or impose its own (low) standards on other cultures. What on earth makes people think they should?
:bigclap:

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 8th, 2012, 02:32 PM
Exactly. Look at how women are treated in Western magazines, newspapers and movies. Look at the depths female singers and actresses have to stoop to. Girls now are sexualised at ver early ages. The West is not in a position to preach or impose its own (low) standards on other cultures. What on earth makes people think they should?

THANK YOU!! the west does NOT promote females in a positive light either (the most scantily clad is the most successful)....how is THAT not forced on us but yet a headscarf is seen as oh so detrimental to women

Darop.
Feb 8th, 2012, 02:33 PM
Exactly. Look at how women are treated in Western magazines, newspapers and movies. Look at the depths female singers and actresses have to stoop to. Girls now are sexualised at ver early ages. The West is not in a position to preach or impose its own (low) standards on other cultures. What on earth makes people think they should?

I really agree with this to a certain extent.
It was all fine and dandy until women where "coming out of they're shells", dressing freely to make a statement against opression, etc...

Now when I see 14 year old girls drunk, wearing miniskirts so short you can see their pubes and talking about blowjobs, I'm not so sure. And problem is, they're pressured into that ideal of beauty and behaviour by their peers and role models. Not a coincidence how eating disorders are booming in our part of the world and quasi-non-existant in many others.
Funny how some are much more men's objects now than before the feminist revolution :lol:

Apoleb
Feb 8th, 2012, 02:37 PM
I think both extremes are bad. I don't like the scarf in general because it implies that women have to "hide" their feminity. But a modest dressing without going overboard (covering arms, and legs..etc) like a lot of Muslim women do isn't this bad.

OTOH, there's a tendency to "prostitute" feminity in the West, in some circles at least. Women become sexualized objects the way men fantasize about them. TBH, I have no idea why would so many hetero men find this attractive.

My ideal I guess is the woman who can maintain her feminity without going overboard by immersing herself in make up everytime she needs to step out of her house, or carry 8980909 mirrors..etc.

mykarma
Feb 8th, 2012, 02:48 PM
THANK YOU!! the west does NOT promote females in a positive light either (the most scantily clad is the most successful)....how is THAT not forced on us but yet a headscarf is seen as oh so detrimental to women
Exactly. People need to open up their lives and respect other people's culture without judging them against their own standards. Not one of these women have spoken out against wearing the scarfs. They just want to compete.

Halardfan
Feb 8th, 2012, 03:08 PM
Exactly. People need to open up their lives and respect other people's culture without judging them against their own standards. Not one of these women have spoken out against wearing the scarfs. They just want to compete.

They are hardly in a position in Iran to be critical of decisions of the regime in a religious matter. That would be a very risky prospect for them.

For all the issues and challenges women face in western countries (there are many) the ones they face in places like Iran are of another order.

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 8th, 2012, 04:57 PM
how about the west clean up their own lives before trying to mess with the eastern culters...

RVD
Feb 9th, 2012, 02:27 AM
In the ideal world a sensible compromise would be to allow the headscarf and the rest for any individual player who wishes to wear it. But as a natural balance ask the Iranian FA in this example to enshrine the right of their players to wear a regular football kit, without the body covering and head covering if they so desire with no fear of sanction?

That seems sensible and respectful and liberal to me.Personal choice would be great...in the real world. However, realistically, regardless of whatever nation women hail from, there is still a great deal of discrimination that they face. I suppose that having two sisters and a 14 y.o. daughter makes this reality all the more apparent to me.
Iranian women, for the most part, appear to me to be happy in their lifestyle and religious and spiritual (position). I only say this after having spoken to only a handful though. More glaring is the fact that they are prevented from even speaking to men outside of their religion and ethnic group. Even in the US schools I get the 'hard glare' from their parents while aiding them during class projects.There's no doubt that forced marriage is a practice that happens in many places of the world, and it is an abomination, but 1) this has nothing to do with the veil 2) it's disgusting to me how people tend to generalize and think that this happens to all arab women, while in reality it happens to a great minority, and it's just a myth leftover from passed times. Of course it happens in many rural ares of arab/islamic countries: but it's also a widespread phenomenon in Asia, the Balkans, and even in many southern small towns of Italy, a founding country of the EU! :weirdo: People tend to reduce Islamic culture down to religion, but it's not that easy. Religion, culture and society in certain parts of the world form and indistinguishable mixture which can often be difficult for us to understand.
Each culture has it's barriers and limits which hopefully with time will be surpassed. Can you believe that still in many "modern and civilized" first world countries women still can't decide what they want to do with their uterus? they can't legally and easily have an abortion, nor get artificial insemination? Can you believe that in the western world RELIGION has blocked amazing scientifical progress, like stem cell research? :lol:
This is why I think it's much too easy to just point fingers to other cultures without fully understanding everything that goes on.All valid points.
These are also why I am careful to criticize when I do not know enough about the individuals' feeling, customs, religions, and cultures on such issues.Exactly. Look at how women are treated in Western magazines, newspapers and movies. Look at the depths female singers and actresses have to stoop to. Girls now are sexualised at ver early ages. The West is not in a position to preach or impose its own (low) standards on other cultures. What on earth makes people think they should?Precisely!!!
Girls now-a-days are actively having intercourse at 12 years old here in America!
It's shocking!
My 15 y.o. daughter is constantly clowned and bullied because she is a virgin and chooses not to wear tight clothes and chase after the fake playas, baby pimps, brainless ballers, and pseudo-ganstas at her high school. :rolleyes:
What's worse is that the the Western school administration and staff population care only about filling seats (since it's their primary income source) and nothing else.THANK YOU!! the west does NOT promote females in a positive light either (the most scantily clad is the most successful)....how is THAT not forced on us but yet a headscarf is seen as oh so detrimental to womenYep!
Makes me wanna bust-a-cap off in some of these media folk's azz because they take it so far. :lol:
You can't open a magazine without seeing some celebrity flashing her coochie, or surf the net without a sex ad flashing across the screen.
GRRRrrr....ENOUGH ALREADY!!

angelabarnes38
Feb 9th, 2012, 06:22 AM
It is unfair to ban whole team only because they are wearing the headscarves. This decision may end many young players career & their dream, playing Olympics will be destroyed.

canuckfan
Feb 9th, 2012, 03:19 PM
Stop making this into an issue about islam, women's rights, freedom of expression, slutty western women, etc.

It's a...safety rule. You can't play with a headscarf just like you can't play with a cowboy hat. Is it a stupid safety rule? I don't know. I'm not a doctor or a kinesiologist. But I assume that if someone pulls on the headscarf of a player running at full speed, it can be dangerous for the neck.

Will the rule be changed? Most probably. When safe equipment is available.

mykarma
Feb 9th, 2012, 06:36 PM
Stop making this into an issue about islam, women's rights, freedom of expression, slutty western women, etc.

It's a...safety rule. You can't play with a headscarf just like you can't play with a cowboy hat. Is it a stupid safety rule? I don't know. I'm not a doctor or a kinesiologist. But I assume that if someone pulls on the headscarf of a player running at full speed, it can be dangerous for the neck.

Will the rule be changed? Most probably. When safe equipment is available.

The scarfs aren't hanging down they're on like a skull cap so I don't understand the safety hazard. In reality perhaps women with long hair should be banned.

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 9th, 2012, 07:25 PM
The scarfs aren't hanging down they're on like a skull cap so I don't understand the safety hazard. In reality perhaps women with long hair should be banned.

exactly...MEN with long hair should be banned...hell let's stop football if we remember what happened to Petr Cech when he had NOTHING on his head...


GcdCq2OxtGc

canuckfan
Feb 9th, 2012, 07:55 PM
Apparently, they could cause a choking hazard. Same reason why snoods were banned.

RVD
Feb 9th, 2012, 08:17 PM
Stop making this into an issue about islam, women's rights, freedom of expression, slutty western women, etc.

It's a...safety rule. You can't play with a headscarf just like you can't play with a cowboy hat. Is it a stupid safety rule? I don't know. I'm not a doctor or a kinesiologist. But I assume that if someone pulls on the headscarf of a player running at full speed, it can be dangerous for the neck.

Will the rule be changed? Most probably. When safe equipment is available.Sorry, but what you state is only an opinion, and rather weak at that.
If safety rules were that all-encompassing then players would all have to shave their heads so that no one could yank dreads or braids.Though your point merits consideration, it does nothing to address the overt discrimination against the Iranian players.
Lastly, if a player's clothing IS yanked, what do you think the refs are there for?
Let's be realistic and logical about this, shall we...
The restriction has nothing to do with player safety while on the field.Apparently, they could cause a choking hazard. Same reason why snoods were banned.This is getting quite ridiculous now.

Seriously, when was the last time a player...any player...Muslim or otherwise, choked on their head scarve or snoods? And if that were the actual concern then the scarves or snoods could be secured upon request. Just look at the difference in how the head scarves are worn between these players:

http://a57.foxnews.com/static/managed/img/World/396/223/Iran%20Women%20Soccer%20Team%20Headscarves.jpg

canuckfan
Feb 9th, 2012, 10:35 PM
Sorry, but what you state is only an opinion, and rather weak at that.

No. I'm only stating that the disqualification is based on a rule about the equipment. There's no opinion there.


Let's be realistic and logical about this, shall we...
The restriction has nothing to do with player safety while on the field.

Really? So the restriction was made with the sole purpose of stopping muslim womenhidjab wearing muslim women from playing football? Yeah that makes sense. Do you seriously think FIFA gives a damn one way or the other about Iran women's national team?

This is getting quite ridiculous now.

Seriously, when was the last time a player...any player...Muslim or otherwise, choked on their head scarve or snoods? And if that were the actual concern then the scarves or snoods could be secured upon request.

How would I know and how would you know? It's not like it would make the news. Again, I did say that the rule could be stupid by the way. But better be cautious than sorry.

mykarma
Feb 9th, 2012, 10:42 PM
No. I'm only stating that the disqualification is based on a rule about the equipment. There's no opinion there.



Really? So the restriction was made with the sole purpose of stopping muslim womenhidjab wearing muslim women from playing football? Yeah that makes sense. Do you seriously think FIFA gives a damn one way or the other about Iran women's national team?



How would I know and how would you know? It's not like it would make the news. Again, I did say that the rule could be stupid by the way. But better be cautious than sorry.
Yeah cautious enough to ban them from playing. As I mentioned before the scarfs are not hanging down, they're secured to stay on the top of their heads.

Darop.
Feb 10th, 2012, 01:04 AM
The head scarves are made of velcro, made to come off if yanked hard. They are much less dangerous than having long hair, that's not the issue, end of story, seriously.

mykarma
Feb 10th, 2012, 03:27 PM
The head scarves are made of velcro, made to come off if yanked hard. They are much less dangerous than having long hair, that's not the issue, end of story, seriously.
Preach.

RVD
Feb 10th, 2012, 09:19 PM
The head scarves are made of velcro, made to come off if yanked hard. They are much less dangerous than having long hair, that's not the issue, end of story, seriously.Completely agree.

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 10th, 2012, 09:32 PM
those agreeing with this :help: btw how would they choke on the headwear?? just curious

Halardfan
Feb 11th, 2012, 02:49 AM
Its competing absurdities...I don't believe the rule was specifically targeted at Muslims...as has been pointed out snoods were banned as well.

Rather it's an example of the so-called health and safety culture, where authorities are terrified of being sued for accidents and over-react and ban all manner of activities on grounds of health and safety.

This is often over zealous and absurd,

However equally absurd is the need for full body covering for women be it on religious or cultural grounds. Even under the Health and Safety rules a headcovering was approved...but the Iranians insistence that every last centimetre of neck be covered contributed to the problem. The sky will fall at a glimpse of a bit of throat as we all know.

About the comparrison between the place of women in Western and Muslim societies...if we take Britain and Iran as examples. British women are self-evidently more free than their Iranian counterparts. Now along with that freedom comes the ability to behave badly. But that is the price of freedom. Better that than the Iranian example of do what I say or else...

mykarma
Feb 11th, 2012, 03:36 AM
Its competing absurdities...I don't believe the rule was specifically targeted at Muslims...as has been pointed out snoods were banned as well.

Rather it's an example of the so-called health and safety culture, where authorities are terrified of being sued for accidents and over-react and ban all manner of activities on grounds of health and safety.

This is often over zealous and absurd,

However equally absurd is the need for full body covering for women be it on religious or cultural grounds. Even under the Health and Safety rules a headcovering was approved...but the Iranians insistence that every last centimetre of neck be covered contributed to the problem. The sky will fall at a glimpse of a bit of throat as we all know.

About the comparrison between the place of women in Western and Muslim societies...if we take Britain and Iran as examples. British women are self-evidently more free than their Iranian counterparts. Now along with that freedom comes the ability to behave badly. But that is the price of freedom. Better that than the Iranian example of do what I say or else...

This is a recording, please call back when you have something new to say. :facepalm:

Halardfan
Feb 11th, 2012, 04:31 AM
This is a recording, please call back when you have something new to say. :facepalm:

I hadn't even mentioned the technical issue before...that was raised by another poster.

I'm not in favour of banning the headscarf. But just as we are free to criticize aspects of Christianity we find silly or wrong, we must be free to do the same for Islam. Liberals too often shy away from doing that, in the name of tolerance. I believe that is misguided.

Wigglytuff
Feb 29th, 2012, 12:31 PM
Discrimination based on Race or Gender are both wrong.

At least in some Muslim countries wearing the headscarf is not a choice, even if the women is not a Muslim.

In Iran women are banned from stadiums when the mens national team play. Surely a policy with echos of South African segregationist policies.

Again, as far as I am aware the Iranian team have to wear the headscarf.

Yes but there is a difference between say the holocaust and wearing a headscarf. The people in south Africa were brutally murdered and abused, mandela spent 27 years in jail and you think that's the same as wearing a scarf to an Olympic event. That's sick or ignorant or both.

AliceMariaRenka
Feb 29th, 2012, 12:46 PM
I hadn't even mentioned the technical issue before...that was raised by another poster.

I'm not in favour of banning the headscarf. But just as we are free to criticize aspects of Christianity we find silly or wrong, we must be free to do the same for Islam. Liberals too often shy away from doing that, in the name of tolerance. I believe that is misguided.

There's a difference between criticising and banning.

The decision to ban a headscarf is insensitive at least. It is an inherent part of many peoples culture (unlike a snoody) and would do no harm if allowed. Surely the Olympics Committee have discretion, and the brains to use it, given they are supposed to be an International body and the Olympics supposed to be inclusive, not exclusive.

All this ban does is add further fuel to the belief that the West doesn't like, and does all it can to attack, Muslims and Islam. It's just not worth that.

Fantasy Hero
Feb 29th, 2012, 12:51 PM
Precisely.. I mean , it's not one or two players but the whole team.. Please, Iran expects all females to cover up when in their country-- now it's their turn to follow the dress code of others...
P.S. I wouldn't care if these women made the choice to wear the hijab on their own--but the fact that it was forced on them is a whole different story..

totally agree with that

Darop.
Feb 29th, 2012, 12:57 PM
At least in some Muslim countries wearing the headscarf is not a choice, even if the women is not a Muslim.


In many churches in Italy, you can't enter in sandals, nor skirts nor tops that show too much skin, be you christian, atheist, muslim or satanist. People will glare at you and deem you irrespectful. While here there is (not always) a defined line of where religious life ends and secular life starts, there isn't in many islamic countries because of how their society and political life developed.

Is it that hard to understand? :shrug: It's called peer pressure, and it's part of all societies in some form or another, be it secular or religious.

Halardfan
Feb 29th, 2012, 01:06 PM
Yes but there is a difference between say the holocaust and wearing a headscarf. The people in south Africa were brutally murdered and abused, mandela spent 27 years in jail and you think that's the same as wearing a scarf to an Olympic event. That's sick or ignorant or both.

That is not what I was doing. What I was saying is that sometimes interference in the affairs, or at least comment on the affairs of other countries is justified.

Others view was that we shouldn't interfere in the business of other countries.

Halardfan
Feb 29th, 2012, 01:12 PM
In many churches in Italy, you can't enter in sandals, nor skirts nor tops that show too much skin, be you christian, atheist, muslim or satanist. People will glare at you and deem you irrespectful. While here there is (not always) a defined line of where religious life ends and secular life starts, there isn't in many islamic countries because of how their society and political life developed.

Is it that hard to understand? :shrug: It's called peer pressure, and it's part of all societies in some form or another, be it secular or religious.

Peer pressure is not compulsory behaviour.

Some liberals criticise Christianity's failings with welcome verve but are reticent of criticising Islam.

For me Christianity and Islam deserve criticism without fear or favour when they are wrong, which they both often are.

Darop.
Feb 29th, 2012, 01:18 PM
Peer pressure is not compulsory behaviour.

Some liberals criticise Christianity's failings with welcome verve but are reticent of criticising Islam.

For me Christianity and Islam deserve criticism without fear or favour when they are wrong, which they both often are.

Yuh, exactly. So to my point: before going apeshit on other religions/cultures which we don't/can't understand, let's fix out our own ones first, because they're just as full of discrimination and injustices. Let others get to a breaking point in which it is apparent that the majority is tired of the system and willing to fight to change it, than you can give them a hand.

In this case: there is no way you can know if the iranian soccer players were forced to wear the veil or not. Maybe the team is full of devote muslim women, so that's irrelevant. What isn't irrelevant is the fact that the veil was banned, though it is obviously less dangerous than simply having long hair (which 95% of the female players surely have).

Halardfan
Feb 29th, 2012, 01:54 PM
Yuh, exactly. So to my point: before going apeshit on other religions/cultures which we don't/can't understand, let's fix out our own ones first, because they're just as full of discrimination and injustices. Let others get to a breaking point in which it is apparent that the majority is tired of the system and willing to fight to change it, than you can give them a hand.

In this case: there is no way you can know if the iranian soccer players were forced to wear the veil or not. Maybe the team is full of devote muslim women, so that's irrelevant. What isn't irrelevant is the fact that the veil was banned, though it is obviously less dangerous than simply having long hair (which 95% of the female players surely have).

Islam is a part of British culture now, it is not a distant, alien unknowable thing its might have been to Brits in centuries past. It should simply be held to the same standard as any other set of ideas...some are good and noble ideas some are not and we must express that.

We shouldn't fence off areas that we can't talk about or passionately criticize. That leaves the field to the idiot extremists on both sides.

mykarma
Feb 29th, 2012, 02:25 PM
Yuh, exactly. So to my point: before going apeshit on other religions/cultures which we don't/can't understand, let's fix out our own ones first, because they're just as full of discrimination and injustices. Let others get to a breaking point in which it is apparent that the majority is tired of the system and willing to fight to change it, than you can give them a hand.

In this case: there is no way you can know if the iranian soccer players were forced to wear the veil or not. Maybe the team is full of devote muslim women, so that's irrelevant. What isn't irrelevant is the fact that the veil was banned, though it is obviously less dangerous than simply having long hair (which 95% of the female players surely have).

Great post but you're wasting your time because Halardfan knows the inside scoop of how these women feel. Even if these women would personally prefer not to wear the scarfs I doubt if they'd disrespect their culture or religion by not wearing one.

pov
Feb 29th, 2012, 04:08 PM
It should simply be held to the same standard as any other set of ideas...some are good and noble ideas some are not and we must express that.


And who gets to be the arbitrator of what is "good" and "noble"?

pov
Feb 29th, 2012, 04:15 PM
I support people wearing whatever they want based on their beliefs and - as long as the item poses no danger to others - being allowed to participate fully.

Talula
Feb 29th, 2012, 07:21 PM
I support people wearing whatever they want based on their beliefs and - as long as the item poses no danger to others - being allowed to participate fully.

This. Enough said I think.

Londoner
Feb 29th, 2012, 08:46 PM
Great post but you're wasting your time because Halardfan knows the inside scoop of how these women feel. Even if these women would personally prefer not to wear the scarfs I doubt if they'd disrespect their culture or religion by not wearing one.

But many actually like to wear them. No one knows the views of each person so this blanket ban is not good. As others have said, all it does is make it look like the West doesn't understand.

I don't understand why people get angry at showing respect. What is wrong with showing respect in a Church, Mosque, Synagogue, Temple? If you don't believe in showing respect don't go in. It's their religion and their ways. And what is wrong with someone showing respect by wearing a headscarf? The men also show respect in other ways.

Halardfan
Feb 29th, 2012, 10:07 PM
And who gets to be the arbitrator of what is "good" and "noble"?

I'm not deciding anything, not actually calling for the banning of anything, I'm just saying we should have the right to criticize aspects of Islam just as freely as aspects of Christianity.

Halardfan
Feb 29th, 2012, 10:20 PM
Great post but you're wasting your time because Halardfan knows the inside scoop of how these women feel. Even if these women would personally prefer not to wear the scarfs I doubt if they'd disrespect their culture or religion by not wearing one.

There is no way that 100% of the women in countries like Iran want to wear the headscarf. Law of averages. It's an absolute statistical CERTAINTY, some women don't want to wear it. My position is the liberal one, if you want to wear it do, if you don't want to wear it don't.

Whatever my personal views on the headscarf, individual players should have the right to wear it, but it should not be compulsory. Individual Iranian players should have the right not to wear the thing too. Why is that unreasonable?

jameshazza
Feb 29th, 2012, 10:21 PM
I dislike all religion so I agree. But most religions I can understand their morals and traditions, but I never got the wearing a headscarf. I don't see how that's religious.

Darop.
Feb 29th, 2012, 10:48 PM
There is no way that 100% of the women in countries like Iran want to wear the headscarf. Law of averages. It's an absolute statistical CERTAINTY, some women don't want to wear it. My position is the liberal one, if you want to wear it do, if you don't want to wear it don't.

Whatever my personal views on the headscarf, individual players should have the right to wear it, but it should not be compulsory. Individual Iranian players should have the right not to wear the thing too. Why is that unreasonable?

You should really take a trip to Tehran and see how "women wear the compulsory evil veil": it's basically a fashionable scarf covering the back of their heads with their dyed hair, make-upped faces and nosejobs well in sight :lol:


HOW YOU IMAGINE IT:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2s1vJj6i8Kc/Tj1dymCh9KI/AAAAAAAAAIk/ELHwu7uPQms/s1600/IMG_2172.JPG



HOW IT REALLY IS:


http://english.people.com.cn/200506/22/images/Tehran2.jpg

Halardfan
Feb 29th, 2012, 10:53 PM
You should really take a trip to Tehran and see how "women wear the compulsory evil veil": it's basically a fashionable scarf covering the back of their heads with their dyed hair, make-upped faces and nosejobs well in sight :lol:


HOW YOU IMAGINE IT:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2s1vJj6i8Kc/Tj1dymCh9KI/AAAAAAAAAIk/ELHwu7uPQms/s1600/IMG_2172.JPG



HOW IT REALLY IS:


http://english.people.com.cn/200506/22/images/Tehran2.jpg

Still shouldn't have to wear it, particularly if you are not even Muslim. You are saying they should have to wear it? It's not just the headscarf it's the body covering too by the way.

Darop.
Feb 29th, 2012, 10:58 PM
Still shouldn't have to wear it, particularly if you are not even Muslim. You are saying they should have to wear it? It's not just the headscarf it's the body covering too by the way.

The "morally correct" amount of body you are allowed to show in public is subjective. I feel completely fine with my body, but if I were to go on the street naked, the police would arrest me. So? Is our standard "right" and their standard "wrong"? Or should I start a huge commotion to allow public nudity?
Some tribes go completely naked. Are they more advanced than us then? Is 'social development' proportionate to the amount of skin you can legally show in public?

Halardfan
Feb 29th, 2012, 11:03 PM
The "morally correct" amount of body you are allowed to show in public is subjective. I feel completely fine with my body, but if I were to go on the street naked, the police would arrest me. So? Is our standard "right" and their standard "wrong"? Or should I start a huge commotion to allow public nudity?

You support the way women are treated in Saudi Arabia then? Or does Moral relativism prevent you from holding a personal opinion?

Darop.
Feb 29th, 2012, 11:07 PM
You support the way women are treated in Saudi Arabia then? Or does Moral relativism prevent you from holding a personal opinion?
:haha: :haha:
OMFG seriously, you've never been to Saudi Arabia nor do you know any real saudi women, so just STFU. Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, but still, that's not the point.
Stay in your dumb outdated vision that in Saudi Arabia they sell women for camels and beat them dead if they don't clean the kitchen, I really don't care, you're an extremely ignorant person, in the literal sense.

Also, again, you didn't answer my questions and followed up with a complete non-sequitur. That is all.

Halardfan
Feb 29th, 2012, 11:27 PM
:haha: :haha:
OMFG seriously, you've never been to Saudi Arabia nor do you know any real saudi women, so just STFU. Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, but still, that's not the point.
Stay in your dumb outdated vision that in Saudi Arabia they sell women for camels and beat them dead if they don't clean the kitchen, I really don't care, you're an extremely ignorant person, in the literal sense.

Ignoring the invective...

Your arguement comes down to an unwillingness to criticize Islam, even in its more extreme examples as in Saudi Arabia. That who is to say what is wrong or right...

How about Afghaniststan? You again think the treatment of women in Afghanistan is only a matter for them? That we shouldnt even venture an opinion? What use is freedom of speech if we are so scared to use it?

Darop.
Feb 29th, 2012, 11:34 PM
Ignoring the invective...

Your arguement comes down to an unwillingness to criticize Islam, even in its more extreme examples as in Saudi Arabia. That who is to say what is wrong or right...

How about Afghaniststan? You again think the treatment of women in Afghanistan is only a matter for them? That we shouldnt even venture an opinion? What use is freedom of speech if we are so scared to use it?

:yawn:

I criticize horrible aspects of Islam, like I criticize horrible aspects of all religions, like I criticize horrible aspects of secular cultures and practices. But, in my opinion, your understanding of the matter is abysmal and contorted.
Men who mistreat women in virtue of their supposed superiority exist in same proportions in all cultures and all societies. What you don't understand is that religion has nothing to do with it. Also, you don't understand that different cultural/societal inputs/standards = different cultural/societal/political outcomes, that we can't analyze using the standards and instruments we are used to. I'd still like you to consider whether the fact that I can't go on the street naked is also a form of "moral policing".

With that, I'm tired of trying to explain all this, think what you want.

Halardfan
Feb 29th, 2012, 11:38 PM
:yawn:

I criticize horrible aspects of Islam, like I criticize horrible aspects of all religions, like I criticize horrible aspects of secular cultures and practices. But, in my opinion, your understanding of the matter is abysmal and contorted.
Men who mistreat women in virtue of their supposed superiority exist in same proportions in all cultures and all societies. What you don't understand is that religion has nothing to do with it. Also, you don't understand that different cultural/societal inputs/standards = different cultural/societal/political outcomes, that we can't analyze using the standards and instruments we are used to. I'd still like you to consider whether the fact that I can't go on the street naked is also a form of "moral policing".

With that, I'm tired of trying to explain all this, think what you want.

Agreed, we have talked each other to a dead end. My position is that a basic level of rights for women should be a universal, global right. That is all.

mykarma
Mar 1st, 2012, 12:38 AM
I support people wearing whatever they want based on their beliefs and - as long as the item poses no danger to others - being allowed to participate fully.

But many actually like to wear them. No one knows the views of each person so this blanket ban is not good. As others have said, all it does is make it look like the West doesn't understand.

I don't understand why people get angry at showing respect. What is wrong with showing respect in a Church, Mosque, Synagogue, Temple? If you don't believe in showing respect don't go in. It's their religion and their ways. And what is wrong with someone showing respect by wearing a headscarf? The men also show respect in other ways.

:worship::worship::worship::worship::worship:

mykarma
Mar 1st, 2012, 12:51 AM
Ignoring the invective...

Your arguement comes down to an unwillingness to criticize Islam, even in its more extreme examples as in Saudi Arabia. That who is to say what is wrong or right...

How about Afghaniststan? You again think the treatment of women in Afghanistan is only a matter for them? That we shouldnt even venture an opinion? What use is freedom of speech if we are so scared to use it?
My Gawd what has happened to you regarding this one issue which is whether the rules should be changed regarding the scarf. You've really gone off the deep end. These women are representing there country and if they don't want to wear the scarf they don't have to be on the team.

Halardfan
Mar 1st, 2012, 12:58 AM
But many actually like to wear them. No one knows the views of each person so this blanket ban is not good. As others have said, all it does is make it look like the West doesn't understand.

I don't understand why people get angry at showing respect. What is wrong with showing respect in a Church, Mosque, Synagogue, Temple? If you don't believe in showing respect don't go in. It's their religion and their ways. And what is wrong with someone showing respect by wearing a headscarf? The men also show respect in other ways.

I don't disagree...even though I'm not a fan of the headscarf I'm not seeking a ban...

If individual players want to wear the headscarf, allow them to. But also allow players on the team who don't want wear it, not to wear it. To wear a conventional football kit. That is absolutely the way to go, is absolutely a sound liberal compromise.

mykarma
Mar 1st, 2012, 01:02 AM
I don't disagree...even though I'm not a fan of the headscarf I'm not seeking a ban...

If individual players want to wear the headscarf, allow them to. But also allow players on the team who don't want wear it, not to wear it. To wear a conventional football kit. That is absolutely the way to go, is absolutely a sound liberal compromise.
:spit:

Halardfan
Mar 1st, 2012, 01:03 AM
My Gawd what has happened to you regarding this one issue which is whether the rules should be changed regarding the scarf. You've really gone off the deep end. These women are representing there country and if they don't want to wear the scarf they don't have to be on the team.

Ah I see, if they don't want to wear the scarf, they don't get to play? You are ok with that?

Halardfan
Mar 1st, 2012, 01:07 AM
:spit:

I'm supporting the freedom of women to wear the headscarf if they choose. To not wear it if they choose. Tell me, is that or is it not a liberal position???

mykarma
Mar 1st, 2012, 02:09 AM
I'm supporting the freedom of women to wear the headscarf if they choose. To not wear it if they choose. Tell me, is that or is it not a liberal position???
First of all you act like you know what they choose to do. Secondly, if it's part of the uniform it's part of the uniform. You act like you personally know these women.

Halardfan
Mar 1st, 2012, 02:49 AM
First of all you act like you know what they choose to do. Secondly, if it's part of the uniform it's part of the uniform. You act like you personally know these women.

I'm not questioning there individual right to wear the headscarf. I support them! All I'm saying is I support the right of a player on that team NOT to wear the scarf too. You know that not every single Iranian women would wear the headscarf if she had a choice. It's statistically impossible.

Some Iranians are moderate muslim, moderate Christian, moderate Jewish, moderate Atheist...they have the right to not wear the headscarf and to play. Just as the stricter girls should have the right to wear the headscarf and play.

There is nothing remotely extreme in that position.

HippityHop
Mar 1st, 2012, 03:55 PM
I'm not deciding anything, not actually calling for the banning of anything, I'm just saying we should have the right to criticize aspects of Islam just as freely as aspects of Christianity.

:lol: Good luck with that. :lol:

Darop.
Mar 1st, 2012, 06:30 PM
I'm not questioning there individual right to wear the headscarf. I support them! All I'm saying is I support the right of a player on that team NOT to wear the scarf too. You know that not every single Iranian women would wear the headscarf if she had a choice. It's statistically impossible.

Some Iranians are moderate muslim, moderate Christian, moderate Jewish, moderate Atheist...they have the right to not wear the headscarf and to play. Just as the stricter girls should have the right to wear the headscarf and play.

There is nothing remotely extreme in that position.

It's also statistically impossible for everyone in Europe to be willing to wear clothes to go on the street. But our culture imposes this, and this penetrated into our legal system. Like the veil is part of the culture of some countries and penetrated into their legal system. Maybe a tribal man from an african tribe can look at us and think of how desperate we must be because we're forced to wear pants.
Is this not an apt analogy? Please, find a fault in it.

Halardfan
Mar 1st, 2012, 10:07 PM
It's also statistically impossible for everyone in Europe to be willing to wear clothes to go on the street. But our culture imposes this, and this penetrated into our legal system. Like the veil is part of the culture of some countries and penetrated into their legal system.
Is this not an apt analogy? Please, find a fault in it.

So you support the right of some Muslim nations to impose their will and have the veil be compulsory for women whether they like it or not. Is your logic consistent, how about all those countries where Muslims are a small minority...do you support those nations if they all ban the veil? If not, why not?

pla
Mar 2nd, 2012, 11:56 AM
Can't read the whole thread but I wonder when will people start being shocked because some teams don't play half-naked, as it's the traditional way of living/clothing in their countries. Frankly.. it's not about veils, bourkas and so on, it's about rules. Rules are for everyone, those who like to dress up from head to toes and those who like to live naked. Like it or not, those are the rules and implying some sort of discrimination is shocking. Changing the rules for those who scream the loudest will be discrimination.

mykarma
Mar 2nd, 2012, 01:18 PM
Can't read the whole thread but I wonder when will people start being shocked because some teams don't play half-naked, as it's the traditional way of living/clothing in their countries. Frankly.. it's not about veils, bourkas and so on, it's about rules. Rules are for everyone, those who like to dress up from head to toes and those who like to live naked. Like it or not, those are the rules and implying some sort of discrimination is shocking. Changing the rules for those who scream the loudest will be discrimination.
Are you serious? People that are not being discriminated against have no need to scream.

pla
Mar 2nd, 2012, 05:29 PM
Are you serious? People that are not being discriminated against have no need to scream.

Indeed, exactly like the women in this case. They are not discriminated against they have to follow the same rules which apply to the women who traditionally wear almost nothing in their countries. That's the big secret of putting a lot of people together you know, some rules must be set and not everyone will find them natural.

If those women are discriminated then those who come from countries with other traditions are too and would be too if the rules were changed just to fin one small part of the participants.

mykarma
Mar 2nd, 2012, 09:14 PM
Indeed, exactly like the women in this case. They are not discriminated against they have to follow the same rules which apply to the women who traditionally wear almost nothing in their countries. That's the big secret of putting a lot of people together you know, some rules must be set and not everyone will find them natural.

If those women are discriminated then those who come from countries with other traditions are too and would be too if the rules were changed just to fin one small part of the participants.
First of all if a rule is unfair there's nothing to say that it can't be changed. Secondly, how does allowing these women to wear their scarf cause discrimination to anyone? :shrug: That makes no sense.

Halardfan
Mar 2nd, 2012, 09:31 PM
First of all if a rule is unfair there's nothing to say that it can't be changed. Secondly, how does allowing these women to wear their scarf cause discrimination to anyone? :shrug: That makes no sense.

The scarf is compulsory in Iran. That is discrimination against any Iranian women who doesn't want to wear the hijab. Now maybe that is only a very small minority. But surely their right to not wear the hijab is equally valid as someone who wants to wear it?

The only defensible, non-discriminatory position is to allow those individuals who want to wear the hijab to wear it and those who don't to not to.

pla
Mar 2nd, 2012, 09:57 PM
First of all if a rule is unfair there's nothing to say that it can't be changed. Secondly, how does allowing these women to wear their scarf cause discrimination to anyone? :shrug: That makes no sense.

All rules are unfair to someone as their purpose is to make an average, a medium decision. And why a rule should be changed for one group and not stay as it is for another or change even more to suit a third? Why these women are something more than the others?

Now, this said, what makes no sense to scream discrimination or implying they are disqualified because of not being allowed to wear a head-scarf. They don't want to comply to previously known rules- they don't participate. It is very different from being thrown out.

So, they know a rule, they don't follow it and either they don't participate and leave it like that or try to change it but without expecting to have a positive result, as other people are also concerned. If people want to change a rule, they first make the change and then only can follow the new rule. That's how things work normally and these women are not an exception and shouldn't be.

mykarma
Mar 2nd, 2012, 11:35 PM
The scarf is compulsory in Iran. That is discrimination against any Iranian women who doesn't want to wear the hijab. Now maybe that is only a very small minority. But surely their right to not wear the hijab is equally valid as someone who wants to wear it?

The only defensible, non-discriminatory position is to allow those individuals who want to wear the hijab to wear it and those who don't to not to.
Please read the thread title.

mykarma
Mar 2nd, 2012, 11:38 PM
All rules are unfair to someone as their purpose is to make an average, a medium decision. And why a rule should be changed for one group and not stay as it is for another or change even more to suit a third? Why these women are something more than the others?

Now, this said, what makes no sense to scream discrimination or implying they are disqualified because of not being allowed to wear a head-scarf. They don't want to comply to previously known rules- they don't participate. It is very different from being thrown out.

So, they know a rule, they don't follow it and either they don't participate and leave it like that or try to change it but without expecting to have a positive result, as other people are also concerned. If people want to change a rule, they first make the change and then only can follow the new rule. That's how things work normally and these women are not an exception and shouldn't be.

How old are you?

Halardfan
Mar 3rd, 2012, 01:50 AM
Please read the thread title.

It relates directly to the thread title. I support the right of any individual player, without sanction to wear the Hijab, which is what the Iranian players for example were wearing. I also support the right of individual players on a team from a largely non-muslim country to wear the Hijab.

All I am saying is that policy should go hand in hand with the right of any individual player on any team, without sanction, not to wear the Hijab.

Darop.
Mar 3rd, 2012, 11:09 AM
The "morally correct" amount of body you are allowed to show in public is subjective. I feel completely fine with my body, but if I were to go on the street naked, the police would arrest me. So? Is our standard "right" and their standard "wrong"? Or should I start a huge commotion to allow public nudity?
Some tribes go completely naked. Are they more advanced than us then? Is 'social development' proportionate to the amount of skin you can legally show in public?



It's also statistically impossible for everyone in Europe to be willing to wear clothes to go on the street. But our culture imposes this, and this penetrated into our legal system. Like the veil is part of the culture of some countries and penetrated into their legal system. Maybe a tribal man from an african tribe can look at us and think of how desperate we must be because we're forced to wear pants.
Is this not an apt analogy? Please, find a fault in it.

So you support the right of some Muslim nations to impose their will and have the veil be compulsory for women whether they like it or not. Is your logic consistent, how about all those countries where Muslims are a small minority...do you support those nations if they all ban the veil? If not, why not?

I don't get why you just can't answer the questions I've been asking you for so long,you keep avoiding them and talking around them, replying by asking me others questions which aren't even inherent... oh well.

pla
Mar 3rd, 2012, 11:43 AM
How old are you?

I won't even ask you how is it relevant. It is not my age we are discussing but basic knowledge of human societies. Try something on topic like answering my questions. I come from a country with a large muslim population and they don't whine when a rule doesn't permit them to follow their dressing code everywhere. They have tried for example to change the ID cards law which demands to take a photo without a head-scarf. While their efforts were ongoing the photos were as the law requested. If they have succeeded they would have been able to put a head-scarf on their IDs. The country's administration decided it is important to see the hair, so they quit trying for the moment and don't bring the issue all the time everywhere and especially they don't say they were forbidden to have IDs. No, they have the right to make an ID card, they just need to follow the rule. Similar case as the team we are discussing but for a much more important topic.

In this case, those women should start trying to change the rule while obeying it, if they want to participate until it's active, or decide that the head-scarf is more important and don't go until (and if ever) this rules is changed. If it's not changed though, well.. they will have to make a personal decision.

Someone is talking about going naked. Indeed, if someone wants to go naked on the streets, it's a perfectly valid personal choice but the rules on most places are different. So this person can go naked where the law is not applied but where it is- clothes are necessary. He/she is free to try to change the law, good luck with that :D it won't happen on most places on earth.

Halardfan
Mar 3rd, 2012, 11:48 AM
I don't get why you just can't answer the questions I've been asking you for so long,you keep avoiding them and talking around them, replying by asking me others questions which aren't even inherent... oh well.

The feeling is mutual.

Going on about a person wanting to be naked in public being remotely comparable to someone wanting to have their head undercovered. Or a bit of their forearm undercovered. Spurious comparison.

gentenaire
Mar 3rd, 2012, 11:54 AM
It's also statistically impossible for everyone in Europe to be willing to wear clothes to go on the street. But our culture imposes this, and this penetrated into our legal system. Like the veil is part of the culture of some countries and penetrated into their legal system. Maybe a tribal man from an african tribe can look at us and think of how desperate we must be because we're forced to wear pants.
Is this not an apt analogy? Please, find a fault in it.

I'll bite.

Yes, in our culture, we have to wear clothes when we're out on the streets.

When I visited an onsen (hot spring) in Japan, it was required that you take off all your clothes. One girl from our group felt uncomfortable with that and therefore sat it out, she didn't visit the onsen and missed out and a truly heavenly experience.
She didn't ask the Japanese to change the rules in the onsen and demand that they allow her to wear a bathing suit. She didn't accuse them of being discriminatory. She didn't see it as the Japanese banning her from using the onsen. That she didn't go was her own choice and not due to the onsen being discriminating.

mykarma
Mar 3rd, 2012, 03:25 PM
I don't get why you just can't answer the questions I've been asking you for so long,you keep avoiding them and talking around them, replying by asking me others questions which aren't even inherent... oh well.
Harlardfan is like a robo phone call on this topic.

Halardfan
Mar 3rd, 2012, 04:58 PM
Harlardfan is like a robo phone call on this topic.

Whereas that contribution offered a lot.

Saves actually assessing the point I made. Anyway, bye.