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*Nefertiti*
Jan 23rd, 2012, 07:18 PM
Okay so this is hard for me to talk about, to sum it up I discovered that I live in a big lie, I love God so much and I was raised to think that Islam is the best thing and that you have to be a muslim. Year by year I discover that hate and killing is what Islam is mostly about in relations with others, Islam allows raping women in war, all what they call prophet life is weird especially marrying a child, the hate to women bodies is rediculous
Now in Egypt I can see Islam turning every good thing to bad and they keep saying islamists dont represent islam, i search for what represent islam and i find lies manipulation and hate
I dont know what to do I love God I believe in judgement day and second life but just cant stand this hate anymore
What shall I do especially that asking for my papers to be changed may bring me to death and i cant stand being written muslim as islamists

RenaSlam.
Jan 23rd, 2012, 07:28 PM
Oh my.

wta_zuperfann
Jan 23rd, 2012, 07:37 PM
Whatever you do, don't turn Christian, Jewish, or Hindu because their behavior is far worse.

HippityHop
Jan 23rd, 2012, 07:49 PM
Are you allowed to do that without risking being killed?

Keegan
Jan 23rd, 2012, 07:57 PM
Are you allowed to do that without risking being killed?

Er, I wouldn't risk it. It honestly depends if you get caught out and labelled an apostate. Apostasy is a very serious crime in Islam. Even if you get away with it, if militants or other incredibly pious Muslims found out there could be trouble. In an Arab country, I wouldn't risk it. I would wait till I could leave the country and then leave religion.

Sammo
Jan 23rd, 2012, 08:10 PM
Whatever you do, don't turn Christian, Jewish, or Hindu because their behavior is far worse.

:spit:

spiceboy
Jan 23rd, 2012, 08:23 PM
Religion is the cancer of society. I can understand people in the Middle Age thinking of a superior God or something like that but today is just plain stupid :facepalm:

JustineTime
Jan 23rd, 2012, 08:27 PM
Whatever you do, don't turn Christian, Jewish, or Hindu because their behavior is far worse.

Nice job. An anti-religious bigotry trifecta! :yeah:

Okay so this is hard for me to talk about, to sum it up I discovered that I live in a big lie, I love God so much and I was raised to think that Islam is the best thing and that you have to be a muslim. Year by year I discover that hate and killing is what Islam is mostly about in relations with others, Islam allows raping women in war, all what they call prophet life is weird especially marrying a child, the hate to women bodies is rediculous
Now in Egypt I can see Islam turning every good thing to bad and they keep saying islamists dont represent islam, i search for what represent islam and i find lies manipulation and hate
I dont know what to do I love God I believe in judgement day and second life but just cant stand this hate anymore
What shall I do especially that asking for my papers to be changed may bring me to death and i cant stand being written muslim as islamists

You have my utmost sympathy, KhorkinaQueen. :sad: My only advice would be to ask God with an open heart and mind to reveal who He truly is to you. NO ONE, NO ONE, has the right to tell you how to worship God. But having said that, I am well aware that it is real easy for me to sit here in the United States and tell someone in a nation that does not allow religious liberty that they have the right to worship as they choose. :shrug: All I can say is that the government can do what it will with your body, but your mind is your own. I would say seek God with all your heart, and if you are honest and sincere, He will reveal Himself to you. If He does not, then He is no God and is not worth following. Either way, you must be true to yourself and follow your own conscience.

I hope and pray for your safety and deliverance.

KournikovaFan91
Jan 23rd, 2012, 09:44 PM
I don't necessarily think Islam is the issue, I mean Turkey and Albania are all majority Muslim countries without the problems you have mentioned, it is more the country and its attitude towards religion that is the problem I think. But then I don't know your exact circumstance.

Keegan
Jan 23rd, 2012, 09:47 PM
I don't necessarily think Islam is the issue, I mean Turkey and Albania are all majority Muslim countries without the problems you have mentioned, it is more the country and its attitude towards religion that is the problem I think. But then I don't know your exact circumstance.

I'd probably say the same thing. People always love to blame religion, when in actual fact it's the people who cause the problem. There are billions of people around the world who are religious and cause little to no problems. We just see the ones who do, because they're newsworthy.

Berlin_Calling
Jan 23rd, 2012, 11:17 PM
People may try to influence your decisions but ultimately, only you can make this decision. No one but yourself knows the extent of your faith and if you have it, there is no reason why the misdoings of the organized Islamic church should influence your beliefs. I admit I don't know as much about Islam as I do about a religion like Christianity, but the biggest thing that irks me are the common stereotypes that people label all Christians, as if they all share one single-minded set of beliefs. If you have faith, the last thing you want to do is repress it because it is a connection you feel on a personal level, that no one else knows, and no one else has the right to tell you otherwise.

darrinbaker00
Jan 23rd, 2012, 11:24 PM
Religion is the cancer of society. I can understand people in the Middle Age thinking of a superior God or something like that but today is just plain stupid :facepalm:

Please get off your parents' computer and do your homework.

Pops Maellard
Jan 23rd, 2012, 11:46 PM
Aw good luck to you. I thought it was bad enough leaving my local Christian religion, but there was never gonna be any death risks or anything :scared:.

You have it far worse than I did. :hug: to you.

spiceboy
Jan 24th, 2012, 12:05 AM
Please get off your parents' computer and do your homework.

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lwman4jfxd1qazkdco1_500.gif

antonella
Jan 24th, 2012, 12:10 AM
Don't think you can. I understand that according to mainstream Islamic doctrine, “Everyone is born a Muslim”, whether they know it or not. Non-Muslims, I believe are classified as either ignorant(that they are really Muslims) or accursed, and I'm not going to say who those are.

Keegan
Jan 24th, 2012, 12:25 AM
Don't think you can. I understand that according to mainstream Islamic doctrine, “Everyone is born a Muslim”, whether they know it or not. Non-Muslims, I believe are classified as either ignorant(that they are really Muslims) or accursed, and I'm not going to say who those are.

Again, it depends on the country. Much like some forms of Christianity, some forms of Islam have an active exclusivist edge to them. Historically, Islam was exclusivist towards polytheistic religions (especially considering it was an alternate to the idolatry Pagan religions) but accepting of other Abrahamic religions, such as Christianity and Judaism (considering them 'People of the Book'). Sometimes this is practiced, sometimes this is not. I've found, through my own research, that there generally isn't a militant inclusivist nor exclusivist attitude towards other religions, however there have been cases where Muslims considered Christians polytheists due to the belief in the Holy Trinity (Holy Father, Holy Son and the Holy Spirit) and some of the, I guess what you could class, 'holier' countries (Saudi Arabia etc.) have incredibly exclusivist attitudes, whereas in a country like Indonesia you're more likely to encounter an inclusivist attitude.

I've never been to these places, but I have done research. Obviously what happens in practice is different to theory, but that's pretty much what I've gathered through research :)

Berlin_Calling
Jan 24th, 2012, 12:53 AM
Religion is the cancer of society. I can understand people in the Middle Age thinking of a superior God or something like that but today is just plain stupid :facepalm:

All hail omniscient spiceboy! :worship:

:rolleyes:

Sean.
Jan 24th, 2012, 01:48 AM
It is, of course, ultimately your choice. I would say, however, that the 'hate and killing' you say Islam is mostly about is in fact only what a minority of extremists, who have perverted the religion, are about - not the faith itself. You will find the same in all religions - look at the "Christians" who protest at soldiers funerals about gay people for instance. It's completely possible to be a practicing Muslim and be good, love people of other religions, be respectful to women, etc.

I admit to not being religious myself, but if you live your life as a 'good' person I'm sure, if there is a God, he would be satisfied with that.

Steven.
Jan 24th, 2012, 02:25 AM
Can I ask where you currently reside?

McPie
Jan 24th, 2012, 12:03 PM
you leave Islam, you're hurt
you're still Islam, you're still hurt


change your identity and leave Islam might help if you really want it, then I suggest Buddhism like me, don't have to believe in Lama like Richard Gere did, I know it's still Buddhism but different from Thai ways, as we are the biggest Buddhist country in the world, also Islam is second in here so I have a little knowledge of it ;) (my sis' mom is Muslim also, I can asked her anything about Islamic stuff whenever I want)

if I said like selfish person that if you turn from Islam to Buddhism, these are what you will get

- don't have to pray at the fixed time, and head your face to Mecca everytime you did
- no Ramadan, means you can eat anytime you want
- you can eat pork
- don't have to make part of your name to be Muslim name


as we Buddhism is the easiest religion in the world (from what I've learn for all my life) :lol:
but it's still suggestion anyway ;) your life, your choice.

wta_zuperfann
Jan 24th, 2012, 01:05 PM
Nice job. An anti-religious bigotry trifecta! :yeah:



You have my utmost sympathy, KhorkinaQueen. :sad: My only advice would be to ask God with an open heart and mind to reveal who He truly is to you. NO ONE, NO ONE, has the right to tell you how to worship God. But having said that, I am well aware that it is real easy for me to sit here in the United States and tell someone in a nation that does not allow religious liberty that they have the right to worship as they choose. :shrug: All I can say is that the government can do what it will with your body, but your mind is your own. I would say seek God with all your heart, and if you are honest and sincere, He will reveal Himeslf to you. If He does not, then He is no God and is not worth following. Either way, you must be true to yourself and follow your own conscience.

I hope and pray for your safety and deliverance.



Why, JT ~ how dare you be such a bigoted Islamophobe.


http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo323/bubbanomics/hahahahaha/HA.jpg

Expat
Jan 24th, 2012, 04:12 PM
Don't leave it , for your own safety. Apostasy is a serious crime in Muslim countries. Leaving your religion is not worth losing your life or being stoned. Better to be outwardly Muslim and being atheist in secret.

Dominic
Jan 24th, 2012, 04:16 PM
Religion is the cancer of society. I can understand people in the Middle Age thinking of a superior God or something like that but today is just plain stupid :facepalm:

:worship:

miffedmax
Jan 24th, 2012, 05:14 PM
As I understand it, there are many different branches and forms of Islam (as is the case for most religions).

I would personally start by looking for a mosque or group that you feel shares your values (if you can find one), especially if you feel a strong attachment to some of your more traditional religious beliefs. What people are saying about a small group of people giving a lot of Islam a bad name is true. And I think you will find that there are similar people in every religion, whereas the vast majority of members of any religion are fundamentally decent and good.

Quitting a religion completely can be very hard, especially if you are in a place where that is considered unacceptable and you won't have any kind of a emotional and intellectual support group, even if you're not going to face any kind of public pressure. It can create a huge rift with family members and friends, ruin romantic relationships,etc.

I hope that you can find a group of Islamic worshippers who you feel comfortable with because I honestly think that's the best option for the short-term, even if it is part of a process that leads you to a different religious viewpoint later. Spiritual well-being is very important to everyone, whatever their beliefs (including not believing) and I think it's important to evolve ones views slowly and with a lot of thought and care.

(And yes, this would be my advice to anyone of any faith--for example, if you were an atheist or agnostic in the US who suddenly wanted to explore his/her faith, I'd suggest you try the Unitarians, not the Pentecostals first, while being fully aware that one's journey might eventually lead to becoming a Pentecostal).

Anyway, best of luck. Also, I'd remember that such crises of faith are not uncommon. Often, they are a way of testing our true beliefs and helping us move to where we need to be. Some people become more committed to their original belief system, others discover a new one.

(Just so you know where I come from, I was raised in a traditional Christian tradition, was an agnostic for awhile, and finally settled into a comfortable Deist world view with a strong faith in a Supreme Force but very little use for organized religion personally, though I understand it meets the needs of others).

Miss Atomic Bomb
Jan 24th, 2012, 05:21 PM
As I understand it, there are many different branches and forms of Islam (as is the case for most religions).

I would personally start by looking for a mosque or group that you feel shares your values (if you can find one), especially if you feel a strong attachment to some of your more traditional religious beliefs. What people are saying about a small group of people giving a lot of Islam a bad name is true. And I think you will find that there are similar people in every religion, whereas the vast majority of members of any religion are fundamentally decent and good.

Quitting a religion completely can be very hard, especially if you are in a place where that is considered unacceptable and you won't have any kind of a emotional and intellectual support group, even if you're not going to face any kind of public pressure. It can create a huge rift with family members and friends, ruin romantic relationships,etc.

I hope that you can find a group of Islamic worshippers who you feel comfortable with because I honestly think that's the best option for the short-term, even if it is part of a process that leads you to a different religious viewpoint later. Spiritual well-being is very important to everyone, whatever their beliefs (including not believing) and I think it's important to evolve ones views slowly and with a lot of thought and care.

(And yes, this would be my advice to anyone of any faith--for example, if you were an atheist or agnostic in the US who suddenly wanted to explore his/her faith, I'd suggest you try the Unitarians, not the Pentecostals first, while being fully aware that one's journey might eventually lead to becoming a Pentecostal).

Anyway, best of luck. Also, I'd remember that such crises of faith are not uncommon. Often, they are a way of testing our true beliefs and helping us move to where we need to be. Some people become more committed to their original belief system, others discover a new one.

(Just so you know where I come from, I was raised in a traditional Christian tradition, was an agnostic for awhile, and finally settled into a comfortable Deist world view with a strong faith in a Supreme Force but very little use for organized religion personally, though I understand it meets the needs of others).

Couldn't have said it better. There is a big difference between faith and organised religion.

Sammo
Jan 24th, 2012, 06:20 PM
As I understand it, there are many different branches and forms of Islam (as is the case for most religions).

I would personally start by looking for a mosque or group that you feel shares your values (if you can find one), especially if you feel a strong attachment to some of your more traditional religious beliefs. What people are saying about a small group of people giving a lot of Islam a bad name is true. And I think you will find that there are similar people in every religion, whereas the vast majority of members of any religion are fundamentally decent and good.

Quitting a religion completely can be very hard, especially if you are in a place where that is considered unacceptable and you won't have any kind of a emotional and intellectual support group, even if you're not going to face any kind of public pressure. It can create a huge rift with family members and friends, ruin romantic relationships,etc.

I hope that you can find a group of Islamic worshippers who you feel comfortable with because I honestly think that's the best option for the short-term, even if it is part of a process that leads you to a different religious viewpoint later. Spiritual well-being is very important to everyone, whatever their beliefs (including not believing) and I think it's important to evolve ones views slowly and with a lot of thought and care.

(And yes, this would be my advice to anyone of any faith--for example, if you were an atheist or agnostic in the US who suddenly wanted to explore his/her faith, I'd suggest you try the Unitarians, not the Pentecostals first, while being fully aware that one's journey might eventually lead to becoming a Pentecostal).

Anyway, best of luck. Also, I'd remember that such crises of faith are not uncommon. Often, they are a way of testing our true beliefs and helping us move to where we need to be. Some people become more committed to their original belief system, others discover a new one.

(Just so you know where I come from, I was raised in a traditional Christian tradition, was an agnostic for awhile, and finally settled into a comfortable Deist world view with a strong faith in a Supreme Force but very little use for organized religion personally, though I understand it meets the needs of others).

And that's why you are the poster of the year. Or the most popular one or something, I don't remember what the actual title was :lol: Anyway, couldn't agree more with what you wrote.


Couldn't have said it better. There is a big difference between faith and organised religion.

Exactly, you just don't force yourself to believe something you don't agree with, and if you do I don't think that's faith or religion or anything, that's just pure bullshit. I dont agree with many Christian things (a lot) and I'm perfectly fine with it, I don't want anybody to think for me and to tell me which path should I follow even if I don't understand it, I mean it's not God who is talking, it's mere human beings like me the ones who 'speak in the name of God'.

Mr.Sharapova
Jan 24th, 2012, 06:51 PM
I don't necessarily think Islam is the issue, I mean Turkey and Albania are all majority Muslim countries without the problems you have mentioned, it is more the country and its attitude towards religion that is the problem I think. But then I don't know your exact circumstance.

This. I just love how in Albania nobody cares about religion as much as other Muslim countries do. Here everybody sticks to their own religion without turning it into a lifestyle.

I'm really concerned with the growth of extremism among the young generation in Kosova though. I think everyone should just stick to their own religion and everything that is extreme is bad for the society.

JN
Jan 24th, 2012, 07:03 PM
Okay so this is hard for me to talk about, to sum it up I discovered that I live in a big lie, I love God so much and I was raised to think that Islam is the best thing and that you have to be a muslim. Year by year I discover that hate and killing is what Islam is mostly about in relations with others, Islam allows raping women in war, all what they call prophet life is weird especially marrying a child, the hate to women bodies is rediculous
Now in Egypt I can see Islam turning every good thing to bad and they keep saying islamists dont represent islam, i search for what represent islam and i find lies manipulation and hate
I dont know what to do I love God I believe in judgement day and second life but just cant stand this hate anymore
What shall I do especially that asking for my papers to be changed may bring me to death and i cant stand being written muslim as islamists

I was raised as a Christian in the AME (African Methodist Episcopal) Church, but as a young adult gravitated to non-denominational worship because it's based in the here-and-now, not at all strict, yet still Bible-based. Being an open-minded person, I read Islam: The Straight Path (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam:_The_Straight_Path), quite a few years ago, and was enlightened with the beauty of the religion. Maybe you need to key on the tenets of Islam, as delivered by the prophet Muhammad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad) in The Holy Koran, instead of the hateful acts of some who claim the religion. Religious-based hatred isn't unique to Islam. Just as there are many denominations within Christianity there are many Islamic sects, as well. But through all of that, The Holy Bible remains the same, just as The Holy Koran... only the interpretations differ. Follow the path that best suits you.

Whitehead's Boy
Jan 24th, 2012, 09:05 PM
I wonder how many people read the Quran. :unsure: I had to stop because it made me sick to my stomach. As much as Islamic theologians want to spin what it says, it is divisive and does rant a lot about non-believers. I don't think extremists follow a truer version of the religion, it's just that the text ALLOWS for an extremist interpretation. If it was all about love and rainbows, it would be pretty hard to misinterpret the meaning of the text and blow up buildings.

As for whether Islam is true or not, TBH islamic arguments are a joke. It probably has to do with the fact that it is so difficult to challenge it that apologists don't even bother with arguments. It is in the line of "The Quran is perfect becuz I say so, and therefore it's true because man cannot write a perfect text". Nevermind the fact there are scholars who think parts of the Quran is meaningless giberrish because parts of it has been misinterpreted from the start.

KournikovaFan91
Jan 24th, 2012, 09:26 PM
I wonder how many people read the Quran. :unsure: I had to stop because it made me sick to my stomach. As much as Islamic theologians want to spin what it says, it is divisive and does rant a lot about non-believers. I don't think extremists follow a truer version of the religion, it's just that the text ALLOWS for an extremist interpretation. If it was all about love and rainbows, it would be pretty hard to misinterpret the meaning of the text and blow up buildings.

As for whether Islam is true or not, TBH islamic arguments are a joke. It probably has to do with the fact that it is so difficult to challenge it that apologists don't even bother with arguments. It is in the line of "The Quran is perfect becuz I say so, and therefore it's true because man cannot write a perfect text". Nevermind the fact there are scholars who think parts of the Quran is meaningless giberrish because parts of it has been misinterpreted from the start.

Because of course the Bible is full of flowery anecdotes.

Whitehead's Boy
Jan 24th, 2012, 09:55 PM
Because of course the Bible is full of flowery anecdotes.

How is that relevant :sobbing: It's like when people reply on GM that your favourite sucks too.

Person
Jan 24th, 2012, 10:23 PM
Year by year I discover that hate and killing is what Islam is mostly about in relations with others,
Typical islam hater /Antiislamist propaganda, all refuted at aboutjihad.com
Islam allows raping women in war,
USA has one of the highest rates of rape.It's supposed to be one of the most advanced countries of the world. It also has one of the highest rates of rape in any country in the world. According to a FBI report, in the year 1990, every day on an average 1756 cases of rape were committed in U.S.A alone. Later another report said that on an average everyday 1900 cases of rapes are committed in USA. The year was not mentioned. May be it was 1992 or 1993. May be the Americans got ‘bolder’ in the following years.

Consider a scenario where the Islamic hijaab is followed in America. Whenever a man looks at a woman and any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he lowers his gaze. Every woman wears the Islamic hijaab, that is the complete body is covered except the face and the hands upto the wrist. After this if any man commits rape he is given capital punishment. I ask you, in such a scenario, will the rate of rape in America increase, will it remain the same, or will it decrease?
-------------------
Islam does Not Allow Rape!
Is Rape Allowed in Islam? By Yahya Snow

An allegation by Islamophobes on the internet; they claim Islam allows rape. This is a hateful and bigoted allegation that has no other intention but to demonize Muslims. Of course this claim contains no truth and is absurd. There are abundant claims of this fallacious and hateful nature on the internet. The internet is an unregulated media which means it can be a safe-haven for all sorts of hate-mongers and aberrations; in this case their vile and unscholarly claims are directed at Muslims.
I am a student of comparative religion and it astounds me that anybody can make such sullying claims against any religion, through study you realise that all religions teach good basic morals and encourage good and just actions.

Before going into the specifics and illustrating why their claim is absurd I deem it important for us to touch on the fuel behind claims of this nature and the historicity of these claims in order to have a more mature understanding of the Islamophobe’s claims.

Claims of this ilk do tend to emanate from Western sources usually via people/organisations with evangelical Christian agendas. Staying on the Christian theme, modern anti-Muslim feelings are traced all the way back to the Crusades and Braibanti goes further in describing Dante’s Inferno as depicting Mohammed as “the figure that broke the hold of Christianity”(1, 2). Much of the resentment is fuelled by the religious rivalry between Muslims and Christians. In simple terms both parties are locked in a theological debate while lower elements (from both sides) have resorted to mud-slinging through propaganda.

Jack G. Shaheen (3) highlighted many examples of anti-Muslim feelings within American popular culture, of course, negative stereotyping within popular culture effectively serves as propaganda conditioning the ill-informed to believe and even propagate claims such as the one being discussed in this article.

Having said all that, a potent method of destroying anti-Muslim feeling is to debunk the distasteful claims being levelled at Islam on the internet. The claim of the Islamophobe; Islam allows rape.

The most effective way of debunking this claim is to show that Islam does not allow rape. I will outline adequate evidence proving rape is not allowed in Islam, this should be sufficient for anybody of a rational mindset.


A tradition narrated by Abu Huraira and Abdullah bin Abbas mentions that the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) said in one of his sermons:

A man who mishandles (sexually) a woman, a lad or a man, would be resurrected with more stink than a putrid body (4)

This tradition clearly shows that rape is not allowed as it would be deemed as mishandling (sexually). Also, this tradition shows that male rape is not allowed either, although I have not come across anybody claiming Islam allows male rape I would not be surprised if that is the Islamophobe’s next claim or one which has previously been disseminated by them.

In order to add more weight and further evidence to highlight that Islam prohibits rape, a prominent scholar of Islam is cited; Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi says:
“The relations between the spouses should be based on tranquillity, love and mercy. Allah says, "And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect." (al-Rum 30:21)
Tranquillity (sukun), love (mawaddah) and mercy (rahmah): these are very important concepts in Islam. These three summarize the ideals of Islamic marriage. It is the duty of the husband and wife to see that they are a source of comfort and tranquillity for each other. They should do everything physically, emotionally and spiritually to make each other feel happy and comfortable. They must care for each other. They should not inflict any harm or injury, neither physically nor verbally, to each other. In order to increase the tranquillity and comfort in their relations and in their home, they should love each other and should have mercy and kindness for each other (5)

Of course rape is diametrically opposed to the idea of tranquillity, love and mercy; it is clear that rape is forbidden in Islam. Islamic Law also instructs us that rape is not allowed as it is deemed a punishable offence. It is clear that rape is not allowed in Islam, no religion allows rape and to imply differently would be an insult to humanity. The Islamophobe makes the claim but cannot back the claim up with evidence, in all scholarly fields; it is the duty of the claimant to back up his claim with evidence. The Islamophobe only brings forth mere conjecture and speculation, which is neither sophisticated nor deemed as being worthy evidence. Evidence, in this regard would be a clear quote from the Prophet or in the Quran; the Islamophobe has no such thing. I have brought up evidence (Quranic and Prophetic) that opposes the idea of rape while the Islamophobe brought mere speculation and hot air.

It appears as if the false claim being made against Islam says more about the Islamophobe than anything else; W.Montgomery Watt (a Western scholar of Islam) speaks about the sexually charged critique that critics of Islam level at Islam and he suggests that men often project their own faults onto others and criticize others for what is really a more serious flaw in themselves. (6) The theological debate between Muslims and Christians, as alluded to earlier, is being dominated by the Muslims; giving rise to lower elements (within the Christian camp) resorting to propaganda of this nature. Quite simply, the Muslims have won the theological debate and the aftermath is taking place now and is being characterised by smear campaigns from the Christian side. It would, of course, be myopic to suggest that this is all to do with theology as, currently, politics between the West and the Muslim World is at the forefront of news reports worldwide. It would be equally myopic and unjust not to extricate the majority of Christians from the lower elements of evangelical Christianity so I would like to state that the majority of Christians have nothing to do with and even despise the Christians that have been responsible for such distasteful claims against Islam. In fact, from my observations, it seems that militant-atheists are becoming more prominent distributors of false information against Islam.
In our view the man who rapes a woman, regardless of whether she is a virgin or not, if she is a free woman he must pay a "dowry" like that of her peers, and if she is a slave he must pay whatever has been detracted from her value. The punishment is to be carried out on the rapist and there is no punishment for the woman who has been raped, whatever the case.
(Imam Maalik, Al-Muwatta', Volume 2, page 734)

"If a man acquires by force a slave-girl, then has sexual intercourse with her after he acquires her by force, and if he is not excused by ignorance, then the slave-girl will be taken from him, he is required to pay the fine, and he will receive the punishment for illegal sexual intercourse." (Imam Al Shaafi'i, Kitaabul Umm, Volume 3, page 253)

When Islam was reveled to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), slavery was a worldwide common social phenomenon; it was much older than Islam. Slavery was deeply rooted in every society to the extent that it was impossible to imagine a civilized society without slaves.

In spite of this social fact, Islam was the first religion to recognize slavery as a social illness that needed to be addressed. Since slavery was deeply rooted in the society, Islam did not abolish it at once. Rather, Islam treated slavery in the same manner it treated other social illnesses. Islam followed the same methodology of gradual elimination in dealing with this social disease as it did with other social illnesses, for example: the prohibition of alcohol in three steps.

Concerning having slave women, we would like to let you know that it happens to be a practice necessitated by the condition in which early Muslims found themselves vis-a-vis non-Muslims, as both parties engaged in wars. Slave women or milk al-yameen are referred to in the Qur'an as “Those whom your right hand possess” or “ma malakat aymanukum”; they are those taken as captives during conquests and subsequently became slaves, or those who were descendants of slaves.

Thus, it was a war custom in the past to take men and women as captives and then turn them into slaves. Islam did not initiate it, rather, it was something in practice long ago before the advent of Islam. And when Islam came, it tried to eradicate this practice, bit by bit. So it first restricted it to the reciprocal practice of war, in the sense that Muslims took war captives just as the enemies did with Muslims.

But as it aimed at putting an end to such issue, Islam laid down rules which would eventually lead to eradicating the practice. So it allowed Muslims to have intercourse with slave women taken as captives of just and legitimate wars. In so doing, the woman would automatically become free if she got pregnant. What's more, her child would also become free.

Not only that, Islam also ordered a Muslim to treat the slave woman in every respect as if she were his wife. She should be well fed, clothed and given due protection. In the family environment, she had the opportunity to learn about Islam and was free to accept it or reject it. She also had the opportunity to earn her freedom for she could be ransomed.

In the light of the above-mentioned facts, and the nature of the question posed by people, it's clear that some people misunderstand the wisdom behind the permissibility of having female slaves and think that it is meant to unleash men’s desires and give them more enjoyment. Never! That is not the point! It is, rather, means of freeing slaves; and this is clarified above in the fact that if a master got a female slave pregnant, then he could neither sell her nor give her away as a present. And if he died, she would not be considered part of his property. She'd receive her freedom and her baby would also be free.

But, we have to stress that this case should not be confused with that of female servants or maids, for they are free and not slaves. Therefore, it is forbidden to engage in sexual relations with them except through an Islamic marriage.

Slavery has been abolished by international conventions, and goes in line with aims and objectives of Islam, as it has called for centuries ago.

As for marrying slaves, it is something permissible under two conditions: first, if one is unable to pay the dowry of a free woman. Second, if there is fear of committing adultery if one doesn’t get married. This is clarified by the following verse: “And whose is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess. This is for him among you who feareth to commit sin. But to have patience would be better for you.” (An-Nisaa’: 25)

marrying a child,

It was a custom at that time to marry girls once reached puberty ie become adult- christians say Mary was fiance at 12y.
Read about explanation here:
http://islamnewsroom.com/answers/23-young-marriage
and
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.islamhouse.com/d/files/en/ih_books/single/en_Why_did_Prophet_Muhammad_Marry_Aisha_the_Young_ Girl.pdf&sa=U&ei=tDkfT6u6OYqAOuHLoKMO&ved=0CAYQFjAB&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNHyQKCVKLXcMxdTBK0w8lLEPM95zQ
PDF Document (1.9 MB)
the hate to women bodies is rediculous
That's why 3/4 of reverts to islam are women
http://islamtomorrow.com/converts/women.htm
http://womeninislam.ws/en/
Women in Islam
http://www.mediafire.com/?ulh3mgsifb5s2db
http://ia600509.us.archive.org/0/items/Womaninislam/WomaninIslam.rar
http://www.islamic-invitation.com/book_details.php?bID=12



What shall I do especially that asking for my papers to be changed may bring me to death and i cant stand being written muslim as islamists

Don't worry, I think no country do that nowdays, but remember:
God says:
http://quran.com/18/29

Why do you think Muhammad was mentioned-by name at song of songs in the bible ;) ?

KournikovaFan91
Jan 24th, 2012, 10:55 PM
How is that relevant :sobbing: It's like when people reply on GM that your favourite sucks too.

Because singling out Islam is pointless when Christianity is similar, there just happen to be less Christian extremists these days.

The Quran like the Bible has several passages of various intensities and levels of extreme. The Quran is hardly unique in terms of holy books.

fifty-fifty
Jan 24th, 2012, 10:58 PM
Typical islam hater /Antiislamist propaganda, all refuted at aboutjihad.com
,
USA has one of the highest rates of rape.It's supposed to be one of the most advanced countries of the world. It also has one of the highest rates of rape in any country in the world. According to a FBI report, in the year 1990, every day on an average 1756 cases of rape were committed in U.S.A alone. Later another report said that on an average everyday 1900 cases of rapes are committed in USA. The year was not mentioned. May be it was 1992 or 1993. May be the Americans got ‘bolder’ in the following years.

Consider a scenario where the Islamic hijaab is followed in America. Whenever a man looks at a woman and any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he lowers his gaze. Every woman wears the Islamic hijaab, that is the complete body is covered except the face and the hands upto the wrist. After this if any man commits rape he is given capital punishment. I ask you, in such a scenario, will the rate of rape in America increase, will it remain the same, or will it decrease?
-------------------

In our view the man who rapes a woman, regardless of whether she is a virgin or not, if she is a free woman he must pay a "dowry" like that of her peers, and if she is a slave he must pay whatever has been detracted from her value. The punishment is to be carried out on the rapist and there is no punishment for the woman who has been raped, whatever the case.
(Imam Maalik, Al-Muwatta', Volume 2, page 734)

"If a man acquires by force a slave-girl, then has sexual intercourse with her after he acquires her by force, and if he is not excused by ignorance, then the slave-girl will be taken from him, he is required to pay the fine, and he will receive the punishment for illegal sexual intercourse." (Imam Al Shaafi'i, Kitaabul Umm, Volume 3, page 253)

When Islam was reveled to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), slavery was a worldwide common social phenomenon; it was much older than Islam. Slavery was deeply rooted in every society to the extent that it was impossible to imagine a civilized society without slaves.

In spite of this social fact, Islam was the first religion to recognize slavery as a social illness that needed to be addressed. Since slavery was deeply rooted in the society, Islam did not abolish it at once. Rather, Islam treated slavery in the same manner it treated other social illnesses. Islam followed the same methodology of gradual elimination in dealing with this social disease as it did with other social illnesses, for example: the prohibition of alcohol in three steps.

Concerning having slave women, we would like to let you know that it happens to be a practice necessitated by the condition in which early Muslims found themselves vis-a-vis non-Muslims, as both parties engaged in wars. Slave women or milk al-yameen are referred to in the Qur'an as “Those whom your right hand possess” or “ma malakat aymanukum”; they are those taken as captives during conquests and subsequently became slaves, or those who were descendants of slaves.

Thus, it was a war custom in the past to take men and women as captives and then turn them into slaves. Islam did not initiate it, rather, it was something in practice long ago before the advent of Islam. And when Islam came, it tried to eradicate this practice, bit by bit. So it first restricted it to the reciprocal practice of war, in the sense that Muslims took war captives just as the enemies did with Muslims.

But as it aimed at putting an end to such issue, Islam laid down rules which would eventually lead to eradicating the practice. So it allowed Muslims to have intercourse with slave women taken as captives of just and legitimate wars. In so doing, the woman would automatically become free if she got pregnant. What's more, her child would also become free.

Not only that, Islam also ordered a Muslim to treat the slave woman in every respect as if she were his wife. She should be well fed, clothed and given due protection. In the family environment, she had the opportunity to learn about Islam and was free to accept it or reject it. She also had the opportunity to earn her freedom for she could be ransomed.

In the light of the above-mentioned facts, and the nature of the question posed by people, it's clear that some people misunderstand the wisdom behind the permissibility of having female slaves and think that it is meant to unleash men’s desires and give them more enjoyment. Never! That is not the point! It is, rather, means of freeing slaves; and this is clarified above in the fact that if a master got a female slave pregnant, then he could neither sell her nor give her away as a present. And if he died, she would not be considered part of his property. She'd receive her freedom and her baby would also be free.

But, we have to stress that this case should not be confused with that of female servants or maids, for they are free and not slaves. Therefore, it is forbidden to engage in sexual relations with them except through an Islamic marriage.

Slavery has been abolished by international conventions, and goes in line with aims and objectives of Islam, as it has called for centuries ago.

As for marrying slaves, it is something permissible under two conditions: first, if one is unable to pay the dowry of a free woman. Second, if there is fear of committing adultery if one doesn’t get married. This is clarified by the following verse: “And whose is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess. This is for him among you who feareth to commit sin. But to have patience would be better for you.” (An-Nisaa’: 25)

,

It was a custom at that time to marry girls once reached puberty ie become adult- christians say Mary was fiance at 12y.
Read about explanation here:
http://islamnewsroom.com/answers/23-young-marriage
and
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.islamhouse.com/d/files/en/ih_books/single/en_Why_did_Prophet_Muhammad_Marry_Aisha_the_Young_ Girl.pdf&sa=U&ei=tDkfT6u6OYqAOuHLoKMO&ved=0CAYQFjAB&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNHyQKCVKLXcMxdTBK0w8lLEPM95zQ
PDF Document (1.9 MB)

That's why 3/4 of reverts to islam are women
http://islamtomorrow.com/converts/women.htm
http://womeninislam.ws/en/
Women in Islam
http://www.mediafire.com/?ulh3mgsifb5s2db
http://ia600509.us.archive.org/0/items/Womaninislam/WomaninIslam.rar
http://www.islamic-invitation.com/book_details.php?bID=12




Don't worry, I think no country do that nowdays, but remember:
God says:
http://quran.com/18/29

Why do you think Muhammad was mentioned-by name at song of songs in the bible ;) ?

'Nice' 1st post. So I guess you came to this forum to talk about tennis? Or you're just afraid to post under your real username?

Whitehead's Boy
Jan 24th, 2012, 11:21 PM
Because singling out Islam is pointless when Christianity is similar, there just happen to be less Christian extremists these days.

The Quran like the Bible has several passages of various intensities and levels of extreme. The Quran is hardly unique in terms of holy books.

Dude, in case you didn't notice, the discussion is about Islam. What you say is irrelevant.

Thanos
Jan 24th, 2012, 11:47 PM
good decision :yeah:

lefty24
Jan 24th, 2012, 11:56 PM
Hm this is interesting.
I was born in Israel and one of my best friends is from Egypt. Her family is definitely religious. Her older sister has left Islam completely but I don't think my friend will.
I don't think you need to leave the religion completely since you clearly believe in God. Islam is beautiful religion as long as you don't look at the extremes(like most religions).
You also happen to live in a country that's a lot more extreme than most. Have you ever thought of the possibility of moving?

Miss Atomic Bomb
Jan 25th, 2012, 12:06 AM
How is that relevant :sobbing: It's like when people reply on GM that your favourite sucks too.

Totally different scenarios. One doesnt shape his entire existence on a tennis player.

Stamp Paid
Jan 25th, 2012, 12:20 AM
Religion is the cancer of society. I can understand people in the Middle Age thinking of a superior God or something like that but today is just plain stupid :facepalm:Wow. As open-minded and accepting as you are, you must be lovely to be around in real life. :lol:

KournikovaFan91
Jan 25th, 2012, 12:46 AM
Dude, in case you didn't notice, the discussion is about Islam. What you say is irrelevant.


This poster happens to be a Muslim but the religion of Islam is not actually the issue, its the country in which said poster lives. As I said Albanians and Turks seem to live happy lives without having the same attitude that the poster encounters.

Islam isn't the problem, people's relationship with their religion is.

Whitehead's Boy
Jan 25th, 2012, 01:12 AM
the religion of Islam is not actually the issue

It partly is. If the religion wouldn't be divisive in nature then people wouldn't blow up buildings in the name of it. It's really not hard to understand if you educate yourself about it.

FFS, just read the book for yourself- and I am sure you never did.

Whitehead's Boy
Jan 25th, 2012, 01:14 AM
And about Turkey, where to start? Let's just say, I won't be shocked if things are going to change. The country is going backward.

Halardfan
Jan 25th, 2012, 01:17 AM
This poster happens to be a Muslim but the religion of Islam is not actually the issue, its the country in which said poster lives. As I said Albanians and Turks seem to live happy lives without having the same attitude that the poster encounters.

Islam isn't the problem, people's relationship with their religion is.

The problem is that the more extreme elements of Isla
are growing stronger, and that they want to impose that doctrine on everyone else.

The role of women in Islam, even mainstream Islam, is one that needs to be challenged.

Shadowcat
Jan 25th, 2012, 04:35 AM
Okay so this is hard for me to talk about, to sum it up I discovered that I live in a big lie, I love God so much and I was raised to think that Islam is the best thing and that you have to be a muslim. Year by year I discover that hate and killing is what Islam is mostly about in relations with others, Islam allows raping women in war, all what they call prophet life is weird especially marrying a child, the hate to women bodies is rediculous
Now in Egypt I can see Islam turning every good thing to bad and they keep saying islamists dont represent islam, i search for what represent islam and i find lies manipulation and hate
I dont know what to do I love God I believe in judgement day and second life but just cant stand this hate anymore
What shall I do especially that asking for my papers to be changed may bring me to death and i cant stand being written muslim as islamists

I don't see that Islam is the problem, it's your country. Come to Singapore. Muslims here learned different things from the countries in middle east. By different I mean good different. :angel:

Shadowcat
Jan 25th, 2012, 04:36 AM
And from what I believe DO NOT leave Islam, it will the biggest mistake of your life. Just endure it till the day you died and you will be rewarded with so much things in the afterlife. :hug:

*Nefertiti*
Jan 25th, 2012, 04:38 AM
Typical islam hater /Antiislamist propaganda, all refuted at aboutjihad.com
,
USA has one of the highest rates of rape.It's supposed to be one of the most advanced countries of the world. It also has one of the highest rates of rape in any country in the world. According to a FBI report, in the year 1990, every day on an average 1756 cases of rape were committed in U.S.A alone. Later another report said that on an average everyday 1900 cases of rapes are committed in USA. The year was not mentioned. May be it was 1992 or 1993. May be the Americans got ‘bolder’ in the following years.

Consider a scenario where the Islamic hijaab is followed in America. Whenever a man looks at a woman and any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he lowers his gaze. Every woman wears the Islamic hijaab, that is the complete body is covered except the face and the hands upto the wrist. After this if any man commits rape he is given capital punishment. I ask you, in such a scenario, will the rate of rape in America increase, will it remain the same, or will it decrease?
-------------------

In our view the man who rapes a woman, regardless of whether she is a virgin or not, if she is a free woman he must pay a "dowry" like that of her peers, and if she is a slave he must pay whatever has been detracted from her value. The punishment is to be carried out on the rapist and there is no punishment for the woman who has been raped, whatever the case.
(Imam Maalik, Al-Muwatta', Volume 2, page 734)

"If a man acquires by force a slave-girl, then has sexual intercourse with her after he acquires her by force, and if he is not excused by ignorance, then the slave-girl will be taken from him, he is required to pay the fine, and he will receive the punishment for illegal sexual intercourse." (Imam Al Shaafi'i, Kitaabul Umm, Volume 3, page 253)

When Islam was reveled to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), slavery was a worldwide common social phenomenon; it was much older than Islam. Slavery was deeply rooted in every society to the extent that it was impossible to imagine a civilized society without slaves.

In spite of this social fact, Islam was the first religion to recognize slavery as a social illness that needed to be addressed. Since slavery was deeply rooted in the society, Islam did not abolish it at once. Rather, Islam treated slavery in the same manner it treated other social illnesses. Islam followed the same methodology of gradual elimination in dealing with this social disease as it did with other social illnesses, for example: the prohibition of alcohol in three steps.

Concerning having slave women, we would like to let you know that it happens to be a practice necessitated by the condition in which early Muslims found themselves vis-a-vis non-Muslims, as both parties engaged in wars. Slave women or milk al-yameen are referred to in the Qur'an as “Those whom your right hand possess” or “ma malakat aymanukum”; they are those taken as captives during conquests and subsequently became slaves, or those who were descendants of slaves.

Thus, it was a war custom in the past to take men and women as captives and then turn them into slaves. Islam did not initiate it, rather, it was something in practice long ago before the advent of Islam. And when Islam came, it tried to eradicate this practice, bit by bit. So it first restricted it to the reciprocal practice of war, in the sense that Muslims took war captives just as the enemies did with Muslims.

But as it aimed at putting an end to such issue, Islam laid down rules which would eventually lead to eradicating the practice. So it allowed Muslims to have intercourse with slave women taken as captives of just and legitimate wars. In so doing, the woman would automatically become free if she got pregnant. What's more, her child would also become free.

Not only that, Islam also ordered a Muslim to treat the slave woman in every respect as if she were his wife. She should be well fed, clothed and given due protection. In the family environment, she had the opportunity to learn about Islam and was free to accept it or reject it. She also had the opportunity to earn her freedom for she could be ransomed.

In the light of the above-mentioned facts, and the nature of the question posed by people, it's clear that some people misunderstand the wisdom behind the permissibility of having female slaves and think that it is meant to unleash men’s desires and give them more enjoyment. Never! That is not the point! It is, rather, means of freeing slaves; and this is clarified above in the fact that if a master got a female slave pregnant, then he could neither sell her nor give her away as a present. And if he died, she would not be considered part of his property. She'd receive her freedom and her baby would also be free.

But, we have to stress that this case should not be confused with that of female servants or maids, for they are free and not slaves. Therefore, it is forbidden to engage in sexual relations with them except through an Islamic marriage.

Slavery has been abolished by international conventions, and goes in line with aims and objectives of Islam, as it has called for centuries ago.

As for marrying slaves, it is something permissible under two conditions: first, if one is unable to pay the dowry of a free woman. Second, if there is fear of committing adultery if one doesn’t get married. This is clarified by the following verse: “And whose is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess. This is for him among you who feareth to commit sin. But to have patience would be better for you.” (An-Nisaa’: 25)

,

It was a custom at that time to marry girls once reached puberty ie become adult- christians say Mary was fiance at 12y.
Read about explanation here:
http://islamnewsroom.com/answers/23-young-marriage
and
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.islamhouse.com/d/files/en/ih_books/single/en_Why_did_Prophet_Muhammad_Marry_Aisha_the_Young_ Girl.pdf&sa=U&ei=tDkfT6u6OYqAOuHLoKMO&ved=0CAYQFjAB&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNHyQKCVKLXcMxdTBK0w8lLEPM95zQ
PDF Document (1.9 MB)

That's why 3/4 of reverts to islam are women
http://islamtomorrow.com/converts/women.htm
http://womeninislam.ws/en/
Women in Islam
http://www.mediafire.com/?ulh3mgsifb5s2db
http://ia600509.us.archive.org/0/items/Womaninislam/WomaninIslam.rar
http://www.islamic-invitation.com/book_details.php?bID=12




Don't worry, I think no country do that nowdays, but remember:
God says:
http://quran.com/18/29

Why do you think Muhammad was mentioned-by name at song of songs in the bible ;) ?

I have quran and ahadeeth in their arabic version not the versions you sell it to "foreigners"
so please clarify to me what does this mean, because in all "tafaseer" it means allowing taking women in war as sex slaves even if they are married
و المحصنات من النساء إلا ما ملكت أيمانكم
and it's not normal for a 50 yrs old man to marry 6 yrs old or 9 yrs old
As for higab it's the most humiliating thing ever, it's not normal, it doesn't exist in any civilized cultures, you need to fill muslim girls with sentences like "muslim girls who doesn't wear higab will be hanged in hell from their hairs" just to convince them of its irrelevant importance
I am also seeing what "islamic parties" did and are doing in my country, they lie, they manipulate, they cut a promise today and do the exact opposite tomorrow, at first i tried to convince myself they are just bad people using religion, but i am slowly realizing they are copying islam and early muslims. Lies lies lies and more lies, I really didn't understand at first, but then I read that they have a "hadeeth" that says lying is permitted in wars. And they consider themselves in a war with everyone who doesn't support panislamism and shareaa, even the muslim ones. It's another catastrophic thing for my country that shareaa says you should force christians to give money to muslims while being humuilated "gezya"
Another weird thing is the contradictions that are in shareaa, one day you say "no force in religion" another day I read "whoever change his religion kill him" The explanation of this contradictions in "tafaseer" books is that when the islamic country is weak be peaceful, and when it's strong be aggressive. I don't know if I should laugh or cry.
Please stop sending more lies to me, I have quran in my house and I can read ahadeeth, save those lies to idiots who are going to believe you. I just wish one day I will find someone supporting shareaa who doesn't lie. enough of lies already

Shadowcat
Jan 25th, 2012, 04:41 AM
It partly is. If the religion wouldn't be divisive in nature then people wouldn't blow up buildings in the name of it. It's really not hard to understand if you educate yourself about it.

I'm myself pissed about what the Islams from the middle East did to Americans. No one deserve to die. Especially 3,000 people. It just amazes me that Islam there believe and learn so many different things from Islam in my country.

*Nefertiti*
Jan 25th, 2012, 04:54 AM
The role of women in Islam, even mainstream Islam, is one that needs to be challenged.

It will never change, unless you mean getting worse. When I was 7, I was in a stupid islamic school, they hate women. They dream of the day when all muslim women and girls wear higab and nikab.
Just see what's going on in Saudi Arabia community, that's the dream of "islamic parties" they know they can't achieve that suddenly in egypt, so they are hoping they will do it gradually using lies lies and liesssssssssssssssss

*Nefertiti*
Jan 25th, 2012, 04:59 AM
I don't see that Islam is the problem, it's your country. Come to Singapore. Muslims here learned different things from the countries in middle east. By different I mean good different. :angel:

Do you think they are going to leave you alone? One day, you will just find them scattered allover the country chanting shareaa shareaa. They are just waiting for the right moment.
We weren't at all an extreme community, actually we were one of the most progressive communities with extraordinary relations between muslim and christians till late 60s. Since 70s they used the political situation to spread. They don't want to be whatever they want to be, they want to force everyone in earth to be like them. Just wait

*Nefertiti*
Jan 25th, 2012, 05:06 AM
You also happen to live in a country that's a lot more extreme than most. Have you ever thought of the possibility of moving?

Well that's the point, if following islam law is going to make me and others leave the country i love the most what's the point of following this religion? why lie to myself?
i hate all the lies, the double life, in saudi arabia they are preventing cinemas and film making, but they are stuck half of the day in front of tv watching american and egyptian movies. I can't take it any more, lies are going to suffocate me, i want to be honest

Shadowcat
Jan 25th, 2012, 05:08 AM
Do you think they are going to leave you alone? One day, you will just find them scattered allover the country chanting shareaa shareaa. They are just waiting for the right moment.
We weren't at all an extreme community, actually we were one of the most progressive communities with extraordinary relations between muslim and christians till late 60s. Since 70s they used the political situation to spread. They don't want to be whatever they want to be, they want to force everyone in earth to be like them. Just wait

Ha that's where you're wrong. The percentage of Muslims in my country is only 15% so we are not going to take over my country. We don't chant stuff here. :lol: We like to keep things low. :angel: I think you should just migrate from your country and go to someplace more private. :)

Shadowcat
Jan 25th, 2012, 05:10 AM
Well that's the point, if following islam law is going to make me and others leave the country i love the most what's the point of following this religion? why lie to myself?
i hate all the lies, the double life, in saudi arabia they are preventing cinemas and film making, but they are stuck half of the day in front of tv watching american and egyptian movies. I can't take it any more, lies are going to suffocate me, i want to be honest

Do you know that leaving Islam is one of the biggest sin? I know that you can't stand all this in life but the torture in the afterlife will be so much unbearable and worst. If I was you when I'm legal I will move to another country.

Whitehead's Boy
Jan 25th, 2012, 05:14 AM
Oh look, threats of eternal torture. Don't you feel the love.

And it's the SAME people who argue the problem is not with Islam.

*Nefertiti*
Jan 25th, 2012, 05:16 AM
And from what I believe DO NOT leave Islam, it will the biggest mistake of your life. Just endure it till the day you died and you will be rewarded with so much things in the afterlife. :hug:

I understand you. I am so scared because I love God. But, I don't want to live in a lie for the rest of my life. I am really trying to understand what's the point of Islam because most of what I am seeing are negative stuff. Islamic parties have turned every beautiful thing in my country to ugly aggressive hateful thing in a very short time, there got to be a reason for that. The hate of women, especially to women bodies isn't seen in any other communities all over the world, why? The hate of arts, even music. I just don't understand why music can be "haram"?

Shadowcat
Jan 25th, 2012, 05:18 AM
How is music haram? Or arts? :facepalm: Seriously what do you guys learn there?

Shadowcat
Jan 25th, 2012, 05:18 AM
Oh look, threats of eternal torture. Don't you feel the love.

And it's the SAME people who argue the problem is not with Islam.

:facepalm:

It's not. It's the country. Period.

*Nefertiti*
Jan 25th, 2012, 05:19 AM
Do you know that leaving Islam is one of the biggest sin?

What I don't understand is why leaving Islam should bring me to death under islamic law? If God is going to punish me in the after life, why do muslims care what I believe in this life.

Whitehead's Boy
Jan 25th, 2012, 05:23 AM
:facepalm:

It's not. It's the country. Period.

You proved with your repulsive reply that it is.

Shadowcat
Jan 25th, 2012, 05:25 AM
You proved with your repulsive reply that it is.

Wateva. :rolleyes:

*Nefertiti*
Jan 25th, 2012, 05:26 AM
How is music haram? Or arts? :facepalm: Seriously what do you guys learn there?

music, painting persons, dancing, singing, acting(especially of course women), women sports(unless you are fully dressed from head to toe) are haram in islamic law. Why should I care if this is the "true version" of islam or not, it's what every islamic party wants. If this is not true why aren't there any islamic party not saying that

Shadowcat
Jan 25th, 2012, 05:31 AM
music, painting persons, dancing, singing, acting(especially of course women), women sports(unless you are fully dressed from head to toe) are haram in islamic law. Why should I care if this is the "true version" of islam or not, it's what every islamic party wants. If this is not true why aren't there any islamic party not saying that

Wow I'm just amaze that Islam at your country cannot do a lot of things unlike mine. Muslims here are allowed to do music, painting persons, dance, sing, acting, sports provided that you do not do anything inappropriate or wear something subjective. We are like other people here too on the outside. And you don't really have to dress from head to toe here, you can wear short pants just make sure it's not too short.

*Nefertiti*
Jan 25th, 2012, 05:40 AM
Shadowcat, I am not talking about muslims i am talking about islamic parties and shareaa, we can still do this stuff but islamic parties want to reinforce shareaa to force us to live this life with the list of harams that extend to every aspect of personal freedom, one islamic party wants to do that gradually and the other suddenly that's the only difference you'll find in islamic parties. the hate and ugliness in every aspect of life grow up with everyday the influence of islamic parties grows.
How can islamic parties in the world are all united in this haram list unless they find it in islam itself.

Shadowcat
Jan 25th, 2012, 05:42 AM
I don't really know about that if you are talking about islamic parties and shareaa :lol: I know only about Islam in general. :hug:

Whitehead's Boy
Jan 25th, 2012, 05:44 AM
Singapore is a wealthy, educated and stable nation. Religion is usually an issue when it's coupled with social problems like political instability, poverty and such. It IS part of the problem because it is part of the equation that explain why people behave the way they do. Again, you only prove with your vicious threat of torture how religions like Islam are pernicious and nasty.

Shadowcat
Jan 25th, 2012, 05:52 AM
I don't say nasty stuff about your religion and you are bashing mine? :facepalm: How do you know how Singapore works? If you live here for your whole life than you can say shit :rolleyes:

Whitehead's Boy
Jan 25th, 2012, 05:55 AM
You seem to be childishly on the defensive rather to be willing to have a discussion. I don't think there is any point to discuss further on my part.

Shadowcat
Jan 25th, 2012, 05:57 AM
I'm not. I'm just stating the fact. It's your opinion if you think I am being defensive but the truth is I'm not. :facepalm:

Shivank17
Jan 25th, 2012, 06:23 AM
With due respect to every religion.
Every religion has its pros and cons.
Moreover, its not Islam as a religion which is bad but its the people.A country like Singapore is well devloped and the people are more liberal there and so they do not believe in the cruel practices their ancestors believed in.
In less devloped countries, people are less educated and so they still believe in such cruel practices.
For example, I am an Indian and I am a Hindu.Even Hindu's had certain superstitious beliefs like child marriage, sati but its now a taboo for most people especially in the urban parts of india.Yet, there are a lot of people in rural parts who believe in it, cuz they are uneducated.
So, leaving the country is a better option than leaving the religion IMO. :)

Halardfan
Jan 25th, 2012, 06:52 AM
Do you know that leaving Islam is one of the biggest sin? I know that you can't stand all this in life but the torture in the afterlife will be so much unbearable and worst. If I was you when I'm legal I will move to another country.

It would have been better to put forward to positive reasons for remaining within Islam, rather than suggesting that eternal horror and torment await if you give up the faith.

It rather makes the point of those who oppose Islam.

MaBaker
Jan 25th, 2012, 07:11 AM
Okay so this is hard for me to talk about, to sum it up I discovered that I live in a big lie, I love God so much and I was raised to think that Islam is the best thing and that you have to be a muslim. Year by year I discover that hate and killing is what Islam is mostly about in relations with others, Islam allows raping women in war, all what they call prophet life is weird especially marrying a child, the hate to women bodies is rediculous
Now in Egypt I can see Islam turning every good thing to bad and they keep saying islamists dont represent islam, i search for what represent islam and i find lies manipulation and hate
I dont know what to do I love God I believe in judgement day and second life but just cant stand this hate anymore
What shall I do especially that asking for my papers to be changed may bring me to death and i cant stand being written muslim as islamists
If you can, you should move somewhere where you'd have a choice if you want to keep Islam or not, or any other religion. It's not healthy to be something or believe in something only because you have to.

Person
Jan 25th, 2012, 08:13 AM
@KhorkinaQueen

U 've taken ur decision, so come to make propaganda that islam is bad, i don't know from where are u, but sure you don't live in "your" country.i don't know from where u got this mutilated picture of God and islam.

I am against your country law, but it doeasn't force u to wear niqab nor hijab.
If a girl want to walk topless, to sell herself, she may try this in countries where guys like this stuff.
Don't worry, no Murtaddeen laws in your country, few anti-islamists murtaddeen are practicing their hate there.
There is no slaves in your country and no war, so you may may go to other countries to find sex slaves.
Don't worry because the "Nilesat" has many music, cinemas, dance channels where "civilized" persons can practice their "civilization".
Don't worry because at your country, naked girls still work as models at some college for the sake of arts.
Just leave islam due to islamic paries, That makes sence !

Lies are saved to idiots !

*Nefertiti*
Jan 25th, 2012, 09:30 AM
So, instead of replying to what I said you decided that I am making bad propaganda.
I am so sorry that I am more interested in facts more than propaganda, if you think what I said a bad propaganda why are you a muslim? Why you find it hard to tell people all facts about islam.
Islamic parties want to force islamic laws "shareaa" ,they are not inventing their own believs, thats why I relate them to islam, i used to be like you saying that there's difference between them and "real islam" but I am slowly realizing this isnt true..

In Egypt btw, you can't change your id from muslim to another.
Oh and btw how exactly you are sure where I live? And what's you obsession with women bodies, how many times are you going to tell about those who omg expose their bodies in movies and streets, ENOUGH of talking about women bodies, enough already, there is hunger, there are diseases, there are hundreds of subject more important than your obsessive thinking about covering women bodies, may god damn the day i was born a muslim woman as i am forced to live all my life thinking that exposing my hair even in the hottest day a sin, i dont wear it btw and hear from time to time people "advising" me that i am going to burn in eternal hell because i show my hair enoughhhhhhhh i am tired i never killed anyone yet i am supposed to go to hell because i dont wear the stupid higab

Beat
Jan 25th, 2012, 01:23 PM
khorkinaqueen, your first post really touched me. i don't have any advice, but i'm sure for your growth as a person, these thoughts and questions are really important. people who believe anything that they're being served - also from their church - will never find any true wisdom or faith.

but please do me a favour: don't get into a discussion with "person". his very first post on this board started this way
Typical islam hater /Antiislamist propaganda, all refuted at aboutjihad.com

and i think that says everything.

wta_zuperfann
Jan 25th, 2012, 02:08 PM
I'm myself pissed about what the Islams from the middle East did to Americans. No one deserve to die. Especially 3,000 people.

Perhaps you are not aware that Muslims everywhere (including Iran and, yes, from the USA) condemned the attacks on 9/11.

But to be fair about it all, I'm sure you share with me the disgust at the way France invaded Morocco, or when Italy invaded Tunisia, Libya, and Ethiopia, when England invaded Iraq and Iran, or when the USA invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. Many more people were killed in these invasions by Christians against Muslims. Surely you agree with me that none of those victims deserved to die.

Contrary to all the Islamophobia that we continually see on this forum, terrorism has NOT been a one way street. More often than not, whether you care to believe or disbelieve it, it is Muslims who have been the targets and victims of Christian imperialism and terrorism. No, it's not fashionable or politically correct to say it, but it's the truth.

Keegan
Jan 25th, 2012, 02:38 PM
There's a lot of tarring with the same brush in this thread. It makes me really worry for society sometimes when people preach peace but instantaneously attack other religions prompting instability and arguments.

Not all Muslims are the same. Not all Muslim countries are the same. Some are freer and more liberal, whereas some are stricter and more conservative. You can see this sort of thing on a much more minor level in Christian communities. There are Christian communities that aren't liberal in the slightest, but there are some that are quite liberal. The people who commit acts of terrorism are the extremists. Extremism is something that happens in all religions. 'The Troubles' in Northern Ireland, for example, are a good example of Christian terrorism. The Norway attacks in 2011 were also motivated by Christian religion. However, that does not go to say that every single Christian is a terrorist, much like not every Muslim blows up a plane, building or market or whatever. Christian terrorists, like Muslim terrorists, use the holy scriptures to justify their repulsive actions, but as I've already stated this doesn't mean everyone involved in the religion is a terrorist. I have a Muslim lecturer, and she doesn't come into the lecture theater calling us all sinners, condemning us to suffering and then running off to drive a 747 into the London Eye, because she isn't an extremist.

Jihad in Islam, although a difficult concept to fully explain quickly (considering the controversy which arose around the 9/11 attacks), did not start as an attack on the Western world. It began as a concept to fight for a noble cause, much like the Just War Theory within Christianity. It is not the fault of the religion that the extremists saw the West as an attack on Islam. That being said, there are groups within Islam which do not agree with violence whatsoever, Ahmadiyya Islam for instance. Ahmadiyya Islam is a sect with strong pacifist notions. Jihad, in this sect, is a personal struggle where violence should only be used as a last resort when challenged with a case of extreme persecution. Just War Theory is a very similar kind of concept, just very Westernized and Christian oriented, with some alterations (such as war is between two groups, not two people).

I think some people in this thread are being ridiculous. It really pisses me off when people think they're all high and mighty when they diss another religion when they know absolutely nothing about it. Take some time out of your sad little lives and try and become more aware of the world around you. We live in an incredibly multicultral society and the only true way to work towards peace is to actually strive for it. Working together, striving towards the fundamental beliefs of peace within religion to encourage unity is the way to gain peace. Not insulting people, encouraging people and talking down upon people. What especially pisses me off is when people think that one person does something, that means everyone does it. It's utterly ridiculous that people can be so narrow-minded despite being surrounded by multiple cultures.

*Nefertiti*
Jan 26th, 2012, 09:51 PM
khorkinaqueen, your first post really touched me. i don't have any advice, but i'm sure for your growth as a person, these thoughts and questions are really important. people who believe anything that they're being served - also from their church - will never find any true wisdom or faith.

but please do me a favour: don't get into a discussion with "person". his very first post on this board started this way


and i think that says everything.


I was more concerned about his obsessive asking about my place tbh

InsideOut.
Feb 1st, 2012, 03:50 PM
It partly is. If the religion wouldn't be divisive in nature then people wouldn't blow up buildings in the name of it. It's really not hard to understand if you educate yourself about it.

FFS, just read the book for yourself- and I am sure you never did.

Most ORGANIZED religions can be interpreted as exclusive in nature. Do the Crusades ring a bell? The fact of the matter is that organized religion has always been manipulated by leaders who don't necessarily have their followers' best interests at heart to fight wars and wreak havoc on the world. It's definitely not a problem isolated to Islam alone. Many wars all over the world were fought BECAUSE of religion.

Your posts in this thread scream of double standards, when most of the criticisms you attribute to Islam are applicable to other religions as well, be it Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism or any other religion. The Bible wasn't all flowery either, was it? Holy books contain A LOT of references to people burning in hell for eternity if they sinned, were blasphemous or refused to believe. Islam is most certainly not alone in this regard.

*Nefertiti*
Feb 1st, 2012, 05:27 PM
They want to jail Adel Emam the actor cause he "attacks" Islam in his movies. Oh well
For everyone defending and apologizing, I hope you will be ruled by Islamic Shareea soon.

Whitehead's Boy
Feb 2nd, 2012, 12:38 AM
Most ORGANIZED religions can be interpreted as exclusive in nature. Do the Crusades ring a bell? The fact of the matter is that organized religion has always been manipulated by leaders who don't necessarily have their followers' best interests at heart to fight wars and wreak havoc on the world. It's definitely not a problem isolated to Islam alone. Many wars all over the world were fought BECAUSE of religion.

Your posts in this thread scream of double standards, when most of the criticisms you attribute to Islam are applicable to other religions as well, be it Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism or any other religion. The Bible wasn't all flowery either, was it? Holy books contain A LOT of references to people burning in hell for eternity if they sinned, were blasphemous or refused to believe. Islam is most certainly not alone in this regard.

Hello. Did you read the topic? Is it about Hinduism?

Cage
Feb 2nd, 2012, 07:27 AM
Religion :facepalm: My parents read me mother goose, I dont worship it.

InsideOut.
Feb 2nd, 2012, 03:37 PM
Hello. Did you read the topic? Is it about Hinduism?

Oh yeah, the topic. It was about a poster thinking about leaving Islam. Not about you reading the Quran and giving it up halfway, yet you brought that up. But oh right we should stay on topic. :rolleyes:

The point is that parts of this was on its way to becoming a decent intellectual discussion, and all you're doing is finding lame reasons not to respond to people's viewpoints. If you don't want to, fine, then shut up and read the posts you're interested in or ignore it altogether. The fact that the topic was about Islam doesn't change that your judgment of Islam is not a criticism reserved for that religion alone, and you seem bent on making it so.

Papillon.
Feb 2nd, 2012, 06:55 PM
Religion is the cancer of society. I can understand people in the Middle Age thinking of a superior God or something like that but today is just plain stupid :facepalm:

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lwman4jfxd1qazkdco1_500.gif

I LOVE YOU :sobbing:

leon charles
Feb 2nd, 2012, 06:56 PM
GOAT as shit from spiceboy :worship:

s teddy
Feb 2nd, 2012, 09:41 PM
I don't think my first attempt to reply was very helpful, so I'll try again.

Wow. You are definitely not in an enviable position. I'm not quite sure what to say that would help you. I'm in no position to tell you what to do regarding your Islamic faith, but I will try to give you some practical advice. What you said about what would happen if you changed your papers is very worrying. Have you considered leaving the country/region where you live? I know that's an extreme step (and perhaps an impossible one), but it's probably the first thing I would consider if I were in your position. The only thing I can say with certainty is that you should not do anything without very careful consideration and that you should be very careful about whom you listen to. That's not much advice, but I hope it helps. Good luck. :hug: