PDA

View Full Version : Where would you objectively place Aranxta in the all-time list?


Steffica Greles
Nov 14th, 2002, 02:43 PM
I can only think of these players whom I would DEFINITELY place above Aranxta in terms of achievements: (in no order)

Steffi Graf
Martina Navratilova
Chris Evert
Monica Seles
Maureen Connolly
Margaret Court
Billie-Jean King
Helen Wills-Moody
Suzanne Lenglen
Maria Bueno

I'm sure there are a few others of the pre-70s period whom I've missed.

Then there are a few who COULD be placed above Aranxta, but would be highly debatable:

Evonne Goolagagong: Won 7 slams, but 4 were in very weak Aussie Open fields. I'd probably place her lower than Aranxta.

Tracy Austin: Well she surely can't be placed above Aranxta because she didn't last past the age of 21. However, she is still one of only 11 women to reach the top, and probably would have rivalled Navratilova even more competitively than Evert, had she not have been injured.

Hana Mandlikova: Was always dangerous, and won 4 slams, but lacked Aranxta's consistency. Aranxta's career has to be superior to Hana's.

Lindsay Davenport: Well Lindsay DOES hold two cards over Aranxta: she has won 37 career titles by the age of 26, compared to Aranxta's 29 in her entire career. She has also been longer at no.1.

However, Aranxta would surely win with 12 slam finals compared to Lindsay's 5, and over a decade in the top ten. Aranxta's other results easily outweigh Lindsay's other achievements.

Martina Hingis: Well Hingis is the only player of this group whom I would place, if only narrowly, above Aranxta.

She has won 40 career titles already, is 4th in weeks at no.1(while Aranxta is the lowest) and has won 5 slams compared to Aranxta's 4. She's also equalled Aranxta's 12 slam finals by the age of only 22.

Aranxta's career has greater longevity, but Hingis' achievements by such a young age, just, in my opinion, tip the balance in her favour.

Venus&Serena Williams:

Now these two I find the hardest to decide. I'm placing them together because it saves time(lol) and because up until now, their achievements are roughly similar.

While Aranxta's numbers heavily outweigh those of the Williams' in most areas, I feel that they've already achieved domination which Aranxta never reached.

They're also both well on their way to equalling her total of singles titles.

Furthermore, how can Aranxta be placed above two players who have completely changed the game? Their power and athleticism is something that will already go down in history.

Still, maybe because I'm biased, I think they need another year as the top two players before they can be placed above Aranxta. They must reach an Australian Open final for starters.

Who agrees/disagrees?

Steffica Greles
Nov 14th, 2002, 02:50 PM
Unless anyone can think of any others who've achieved more than Aranxta, she is 14th in my list.

macn
Nov 14th, 2002, 03:02 PM
I would never put Aranxta over Evonne Goolagong. Evonne won 88 titles along with 7 grand slams and numerous finals. the 1974 and 1975 Australian open had a good field. Evonne beat Chris Evert, Martina Navratilova, Kerry Reid and Sue Barker along the way to those two titles. Venus and Arantxa both have 4 grand slams, been to #1, Aranxta has 29 titles and Venus has 25, I don't think that's too much of a stretch. The only thing I give there is Aranxts's longevity and Grand slam finals.

hingis-seles
Nov 14th, 2002, 03:07 PM
Martina Hingis should be above her.

I feel Lindsay should be above Aranxta also because 3 out of 4 of Aranxta's slams came at RG while Lindsay has one title at the Australian, Wimbledon and US.

I would also place Hana Mandlikova above her.

I would also put Althea Gibson above Aranxta. She won Roland Garros in 1956, Wimbledon and US Open in 1957 and 1958. She won a total of 11 majors in singles and doubles. You also have to consider the factor of her as a pioneer for African-Americans in tennis.

wave
Nov 14th, 2002, 03:21 PM
Why should Hana be rated higher than Arantxa?

Same amount of GS titles, yet Arantxa was no. 1 in both doubles and singles (and that at the same time). Hana was not.

I can't say anything about the pre-Navratilova aera, but I agree about Hingis (higher) and Davenport (lower) though Lindsay might win another GS and then we would have to rethink this.

I'm sure we will have to rate both Serena and Venus higher than Arantxa. If not now, then next year. They will go on winning Slams and they will surely increase their number of weeks as number 1 (which is already higher than Arantxa's).

Refering to impact on the game: Arantxa had an impact on the game. She showed determination and fighting spirit and should therefore be a role modell for other players. She also proved that fast legs are important and tennis tactics... An don't reduce the sisters to just being powerful and athletic. They got a bit of all that was mentioned above (maybe besides tennis tactics...)

Steffica Greles
Nov 14th, 2002, 03:31 PM
You simply cannot place Hana above Aranxta!

I don't really know why I threw her name in. Probably to add to the debate LOL

If you look at the stats, I'm sure there would be very few indeed where Hana would even match Aranxta, let alone overshadow her.

Lindsay is more difficult, but I just don't feel Lindsay has the same amount of years of success behind her. Furthermore, Lindsay hasn't played many epic matches.

To even be the runner-up in some of the greatest matches of all time - as Aranxta so often was - you have to be a truly amazing player to have had the determination to raise your game to that level.

selesrules
Nov 14th, 2002, 04:06 PM
I agree with the first list (except changes in the top 4) although I would also put Hingis above Aranxta because Hingis has more grandslams, more titles and way more weeks at no.1.

Steffica Greles
Nov 14th, 2002, 05:52 PM
Okay, I agree that Goolagong and Althea Gibson should also be placed above Aranxta.

I only had limited knowledge of both of those players.

There's one other player, Alice Marble, who perhaps should be above Aranxta. Can anyone tell me much about her?

I haven't revised my tennis history for some years now:)

Thus far, Aranxta is 16th in my list.

macn
Nov 14th, 2002, 06:26 PM
Let's place Aranxta further down because I believe Louise Brough, Doris Hart and Margaret Osbourne Dupont would rank higher. All has held the year end #1, Louise has 4 Wimbledons, 1 U.S. Open and 1 Australian, Margaret has 3 U.S. Opens 1 Wimbledon and 2 French and Doris won all of the Majors. Let's not talk doubles and Mixed, they all have multiple wins.

disposablehero
Nov 14th, 2002, 06:38 PM
Martina Hingis should be above Arantxa. Hard to argue against someone with 1 more Slam and twice as many regular titles in half the time.

Above both of them should be:

Evonne Goolagong
Alice Marble
Althea Gibson
Doris Hart
Molla Mallory

And probably someone I have forgotten. Looking at overall career path, I would honestly have to put both Williams ahead of Arantxa too.

disposablehero
Nov 14th, 2002, 06:40 PM
Steffica, Alice Marble was essentially unbeatable for about 2 years going into World War II. 5 Slams doesn't even begin to do her justice.

calabar
Nov 14th, 2002, 06:40 PM
This question is about as easy to answer as the "who is the greatest of all time" question. In order to objectively rank players on an all-time list, you would first have to have a list of all the players AND their respective accomplishments. Clearly that would be extremely impractical to do. If you ask any individual to rank players, that indidual can only based their response on the players that they have seen play, hence a tennis fan in their early twenties would be at a hugh disadvantage to someone in their sixties for example. This problem is obviously true for ANY sport. That is wht so many generation-x types would rank Michael Jordan over Bill Russel because they have never seen any of the older greats play except from some archival black-and-white video clips.

What I am realy trying to say is that I don't have a clue where to rank Arnaxta on "All-time" list. I will say this much, of the players that I have seen perform, then I would have the following:

Navratilova
Graf
Seles
Venus/Serena
Evert
Hingis
Davenport
Arantxa


Calabar

Steffica Greles
Nov 14th, 2002, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by calabar
If you ask any individual to rank players, that indidual can only based their response on the players that they have seen play, hence a tennis fan in their early twenties would be at a hugh disadvantage to someone in their sixties for example.

Calabar

No, because we're not basing our placings on who hit the most winners, or who covered the court quickest, or even who was mentally toughest.

We're trying to think of players who achieved more than Aranxta in terms of accomplishments.

We don't need to have seen them to do that. We simply need a good history book:)

DisposableHero: I remember reading about all of those players at some time, especially Alice Marble, but I couldn't be bothered to go fish out my book before starting this thread.

Thanks:)

That makes Aranxta....about 20th so far?

I'm enjoying this:)

calabar
Nov 14th, 2002, 07:28 PM
Steffica,

How would you go about evaluating Graff and Lenglen given the fact that their achievements are separated by more than half a century? Do you know how many winners were hit by either athlete? what do you know about their mental toughness, is this something you can find in a history book?

Pray tell.

selesrules
Nov 14th, 2002, 07:57 PM
In order:

1. Navratilova
2. Billie Jean King
3. Seles
4. Evert
5. Graf
6. Connolly
7. Court
8. Moody
9. Lenglen
10. Hingis
11. S.Vicario

Volcana
Nov 14th, 2002, 08:08 PM
I figured this out for myself once, and I put her at #21, just behind Hingis. If I can find my whole list I'll post it. I do know Iput Molla Mallory ahead of her, so obviously I went all the way back to 19th C tennis.

Steffica Greles
Nov 14th, 2002, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by calabar
Steffica,

How would you go about evaluating Graff and Lenglen given the fact that their achievements are separated by more than half a century? Do you know how many winners were hit by either athlete? what do you know about their mental toughness, is this something you can find in a history book?

Pray tell.

Errr....

Didn't I just say that I'm not judging players on how many winners they hit? I'm sure I did. And did I say that mental toughness was in a history book? I'm sure I didn't.

And I'm not asking anyone to evaluate Graf or Lenglen, either. Both were great champions who are almost impossible to compare.

And I'd made it clear that I believe both are above Aranxta in terms of achievements made during their respective periods.

This thread is about Aranxta.

Pray read properly.

Rollo
Nov 14th, 2002, 08:33 PM
As much as I like ASV, she's 20 something on a list of accomplishments, certainly not top 10. Winning that glorious Wimbledon final in 1995 would have done a lot for her. It would have meant she could win on all surfaces and added that 5th slam.

Some of those Steffi-Sanchez matches were classics;)

ASV
Nov 14th, 2002, 08:42 PM
shes #1

Steffica Greles
Nov 14th, 2002, 10:26 PM
ASV: hehehehe this is why I said "objective".

Otherwise, she'd be pretty near no.1 on my own personal list:)

fan of Jana
Nov 15th, 2002, 12:10 AM
Hana is above Arantxa that's for sure! She's more talented, she was a real threat to Evert & Nav, and has won 4 Gs in all-court surfaces. She was an all-court-player, and her game is way ahead arantxa's. I like ASV, but don't make me laugh...

GogoGirl
Nov 15th, 2002, 12:18 AM
Touching article - and a entirely different perspective on Arantxa. And especially the part where she addresses the crowd. Lordy - but her speech reminds me some of the one Serena gave at IW.

I would place Arantxa definitely in the top 5 of the overall competitors and w/i the top ten or overall champs. At some point - GS wins & titles have to take a back seat - to one's heart - will and determintation to compete the hardest one can - IMO.



http://www.iht.com/articles/77002.html



Not overly gifted, but a true champion

Arantxa Sanchez Vicario tearfully announced her retirement this week, and not a season too soon judging from the one that just finished.
.
Once the world's No. 1 women's tennis player, the 30-year-old Spaniard failed to get past the first round in singles in any of the three Grand Slam events she played in this year and her ranking, quite appropriately, dropped to 53.
.
Her game, based on quickness, counterpunching and guile, is no longer ahead of the curve in women's tennis, although it is still serving Lleyton Hewitt quite nicely among the men.
.
For the women, it is now a chronic-risk-taking, power game, as confirmed by the top four players in the current rankings: Serena Williams, Venus Williams, Jennifer Capriati and Kim Clijsters. Unforced errors are part of the plan, part of the gamble, and Sanchez Vicario, a tenacious overachiever, was never comfortable squandering a point, particularly when she often had to work so hard for those that she did win.
.
From the time she turned professional at 13 - something that can no longer occur because of rule changes - she scrapped, scrambled and extracted just about all that appeared possible to extract from her acrobatic but essentially limited game.
.
She had a fine two-handed backhand and covered the court better than anyone else of her microgeneration, with the possible exception of a longtime rival, Steffi Graf. But her forehand was no consistent weapon, and her serve was even less threatening.
.
Yet she won three French Opens and one U.S. Open, reached eight other Grand Slam singles finals and won 10 major titles in doubles, which still meant something during her era because most of the best women still played doubles.
.
She once said that she was proudest of being ranked No. 1 in the world in singles and doubles simultaneously. Sanchez Vicario was proud in general. Only 5-foot-6 (1.69 meters) and 125 pounds (56 kilograms), she walked with the thick-legged, shoulders-back swagger of a much more imposing woman, and her attitude, along with her speed, was the best explanation for her surprising success.
.
The Dutchman Eric Van Harpen, who coached her briefly before coaching her countrywoman Conchita Martinez at length, once told me: "She has a very simple game, Arantxa. She has some other terrific things that make her No. 1 or No. 2 in the world, but for sure it's not her tennis.
.
"It's really her courage and that she isn't afraid to go on court. She likes the competition, and it's very seldom with women that they like the competition.
.
"She loves to fight, loves the long matches. The longer the better, because she thinks she's so fantastic that if she plays for three hours the people are so pleased they can see her for three hours."
.
The rub was that she was not much of a crowd favorite outside her own country. The Spaniards appreciated her for her combative spirit and her societal role: she was the first Spanish woman to win a Grand Slam title and the first to rise to the top of a global game, helping reinforce - with the Wimbledon champion Martinez as her more mercurial and less charismatic second - a change in attitudes toward the capacities and rights of women in post-Franco Spain.
.
But her plucky, often defensive style rarely won hearts and minds elsewhere, although she won plenty of titles - 29 in singles and 67 in doubles - and plenty of money.
.
Her career earnings of $16,917,312 rank her behind only Steffi Graf, Martina Navratilova and Martina Hingis.
.
Yet she was never a tennis star in the same sense that those three or others were. There was nothing otherworldly about Sanchez Vicario, and she rarely made her sport look easy.
.
She was also not particularly elegant or alluring on court, and appearance - fair or, more accurately, unfair - contributes heavily to stardom in the women's game.
.
She was still a prodigy, however. In 1989, when she stunned Graf to win her first French Open, she became the youngest women's champion at age 17 years and six months. There was a palpable optimism to her game, and the Parisians took to her, all the more so because Graf, fresh off a Grand Slam in 1988, seemed invulnerable.
.
Sanchez Vicario's attitude would not change, but the Parisians' would. When she won her next title at Roland Garros in 1994, she had to beat Mary Pierce of France (by way of Florida) in the final, and when she lost to Graf in the 1996 final, the crowd was audibly against her, just as it would be in 1998, when she beat the sentimental favorite Monica Seles, whose father/coach Karolj had died just weeks before.
.
In her post-match victory speech, Sanchez Vicario summed it up: "When I played against Steffi Graf, you wanted Steffi to win. When I played against Mary Pierce, you wanted Mary to win, and today you were for Monica. But I want to tell you that I love you all."
.
That victory in 1998 would represent her last surge - she would not reach another Grand Slam final - and it was, from my vantage point, her most impressive performance.
.
It came after a period of intense effort in training with her older brother Emilio, a former top 10 player who became her coach after retiring. She had not won a major in nearly four years, but with Emilio's help, she found just the right cocktail of aggression, defense and good karma during those two weeks in Paris, rallying from a 4-6, 2-5 deficit in the fourth round to defeat Serena Williams in one of the testiest matches in memory. She then took full advantage of Seles's mental lapses in the three-set final.
.
In truth, Sanchez Vicario was one of the prime beneficiaries of Seles's misfortune. She had the best stretch of her career in 1994 and 1995 during Seles's 27-month absence from the circuit after being stabbed by a deranged Graf fan. That, of course, was hardly Sanchez Vicario's fault, but it tempered appreciation of her achievements.
.
She was, however, fundamentally resilient, and she needed to be of late. In 1999, she had to defend herself against charges that she had evaded Spanish taxes of more than E2 million ($2 million), and her marriage to a Spanish television reporter in July 2000 lasted barely six months.
.
"I'd be lying if I said my personal life didn't affect my game," she said at Wimbledon last year.
.
Her last match came in the Fed Cup final on Nov. 3 in the Canary Islands, and she lost, 6-0, 6-2, to Janette Husarova of the victorious Slovak Republic team.
.
It was a humiliating moment, particularly because she was heckled by one of her own Spanish fans. His comments left her in tears on court, and there were more tears on Tuesday in Barcelona, when she announced that her 17-year journey was over.
.
Like many Spaniards, she had strong support from home. The Sanchezs were tennis's first family until the Williams sisters emerged.
.
Arantxa's other brother, Javier, was also a highly ranked men's player. But the essential bond was between Arantxa and her mother, Marisa, who traveled with her constantly and watched her matches from the front row, often with dog Roland perched in her lap. Marisa was in the front row one last time Tuesday, when Arantxa explained that she was eager to become a normal citizen.
.
She is already much closer to that unrarefied state than most tennis divas, and the other good news is that she will no longer have to deal with the frustration of giving her all and hearing the message from the stands that it wasn't quite good enough. Not overly gifted, but a true champion

england_rules
Nov 15th, 2002, 12:30 AM
Here's how I would rank them (Doubles and Mixed Included):

1. Navratilova
2. Graf
3. Court
4. Evert
5. King
6. Seles
7. Connoly
8. Lenglen
9. Hingis
10. Austin (maybe Vicario)

disposablehero
Nov 15th, 2002, 12:33 AM
Helen Wills Moody below Austin?
Helen Wills Moody below Austin?
Helen Wills Moody below Austin?

england_rules
Nov 15th, 2002, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by disposablehero
Helen Wills Moody below Austin?
Helen Wills Moody below Austin?
Helen Wills Moody below Austin?
Oh shit! I knew I was forgetting somebody!

fammmmedspin
Nov 15th, 2002, 01:29 AM
I have my doubts how you can compare someone from 70 or 100 years ago and their accomplishments against their opponents (or lack of them) of the time with someone who retired this week. I am not certain you can even compare over the last 15 years. The numbers just don't tell you anything other than how many titles they won which doesn't tell everything about accomplishment.

Looked at from another direction - one major problem is that if you place Steffi at number one (as I would) her place is somewhat undermined if her major opponent (or at least one of her two leading opponents) is ranked rather lowly in the list of greats. What did Steffi achieve after Navratilova retired (first incarnation) if you don't rate Steffi's opponents? What would they have achieved if Steffi had gone for 400 metre running?

oggie
Nov 15th, 2002, 01:48 AM
Are all of these players from Open Era? There are so many names that I never heard.

Picol
Nov 15th, 2002, 02:52 AM
1. Navratilova
2. Graf
3. Court
4. Evert
5. Hingis
6. Seles
7. King
8. Lenglen
9. Sanchez-Vicario
10. Serena Williams

Zummi
Nov 15th, 2002, 03:14 AM
Arantxa is definitely in the top 30, if not the top 25. Her doubles results must count too.

Hingiswinsthis
Nov 15th, 2002, 03:16 AM
1. Navratilova
2. Graf
3. Evert
4. Seles
5. Court
6. King
7. Wills-Moody
8. Hingis
9. Lenglen
10. ASV or Serena Williams

Messenger
Nov 15th, 2002, 03:25 AM
oggie: No, some of these players are not from the Open Era. I know that some of you are only ranking from the Open Era and that's fine, but I think you should say so first.

People do tend to forget Helen, even though she won the Grand Slam it's not that often talked about.

(edit: except for the Australian Open, 1928, first player)

treufreund
Nov 15th, 2002, 06:50 AM
In her post-match victory speech, Sanchez Vicario summed it up: "When I played against Steffi Graf, you wanted Steffi to win. When I played against Mary Pierce, you wanted Mary to win, and today you were for Monica. But I want to tell you that I love you all."


Boy I love that quote. why are the French so cruel to counterpounchers? I don't get it. Arantxa fought with so much heart. Classy response from her but I really don't understand the French crowds. :(

Williams Rulez
Nov 15th, 2002, 11:49 AM
It must have hurt her... :sad:

treufreund
Nov 15th, 2002, 12:00 PM
French crowds have hurt many many players. American crowds were very cruel to Lendl and Navratilova. Very very cruel. We complain about the way crowds treat our faves these days but nothing is like what some players went through in the past. :sad:

Williams Rulez
Nov 15th, 2002, 12:02 PM
Yeah, they were always so nice to Chrissy though...

The French were so weird, they even booed Mary... :(

treufreund
Nov 15th, 2002, 12:02 PM
German crowds generally love Arantxa and Conchita on the other hand. :D

marsha
Nov 15th, 2002, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by Steffica Greles
I can only think of these players whom I would DEFINITELY place above Aranxta in terms of achievements: (in no order)

Maria Bueno

Who agrees/disagrees?

No way Maria Bueno should be higher than Arantxa -- the level of competition was no where near what Arantxa came against. I suppose that argument could be made for Court, etc, as well (I'd still keep Billie Jean in your list though)

I do agree with you that none of the "current crop" go on the list *yet* -- have to see what else their careers will bring first -- things need to be evaluated in their totality -- I think 17 years as a professional also has to factor in, as longevity also is a factor for some names above.

marsha
Nov 15th, 2002, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by Steffica Greles
I can only think of these players whom I would DEFINITELY place above Aranxta in terms of achievements: (in no order)

Maria Bueno

Who agrees/disagrees?

No way Maria Bueno should be higher than Arantxa -- the level of competition was no where near what Arantxa came against. I suppose that argument could be made for Court, etc, as well (I'd still keep Billie Jean in your list though)

I do agree with you that none of the "current crop" go on the list *yet* -- have to see what else their careers will bring first -- things need to be evaluated in their totality, I think 17 years as a professional also has to factor in, as longevity also is a factor for some names above.

macn
Nov 15th, 2002, 02:58 PM
I think some people should read their Tennis histroy books! Maria Bueno had plenty of competition. Althea Gibson, Darlene Hard, Margaret Court, Billie Jean King, Ann Jones, Nancy Richey, Virginia Wade, Rosie Casals and a few other good players. Duting the early 60's she and Margaret had a furious battle in their meetings. She and Margaret usually had great battles in the Majors. When Billie Jean got her game together in 1965 she began to dominate Bueno. Maria won the grand slam in doubles, 3 Wimbledons and 4 U.S. Opens when the competition was good from the quaters on. The depth of the women's game was weaker in the past; however, when the later rounds came the competition was good. Aranxta only had Steffi and Monica to deal with and Maria had Margaret and Billie Jean. Martina and Chris were past their primes and still managed to Sanchez. I like Aranxta and think she deserves top 25 status but let's not forget the women of the past and their acomplishments.

wave
Nov 15th, 2002, 03:12 PM
fan of Jana:

You make me laugh! Maybe you think that Jana's accomplishments are higher than Arantxa's, if that your biased opinion, that's o.k.
But Arantxa has also won titles on all surfaces. She was in the finals of all GS at least twice. She was number one in singles and doubles simultaneously. So what do you want to tell us that makes you laugh with the estimation that Arantxa should be placed higher that Hana??? This is another (mine and those of others) opinion and surely based on facts. And if you refer to be able to challenge the top player... who was the only player after Monica's "break" that was able to challenge Steffi and beat her in 1994 and 1995??? A challenge that brought her to number 1, something that Hana never was able to do.

Since you are a Jana fan... I assume that this is Jana Novotna, am I right? Maybe you therefore have problems to analyse the achievement of certain players correctly ;)


What makes me sad is this article on Arantxa being loved only in Spain. I don't agree, but again I may be biased. I have got to know a lot of posters on the board from different countries who are fans of Arantxa, so that should not be true. And referring to countries I can tell you that Germany loved the counterpuncher Arantxa inspite of being a real oponent to Steffi Graf. The matches between them were amazing, Arantxa was even faster than Steffi (ask Steffi about that), her fighting spirit at every ball was loved by the audience and her interview in German were very popular.

So not every reporter writes about the truth, but didn't we know that?

fan of Jana
Nov 16th, 2002, 03:41 PM
I think you hven't read properly my post "wave". My pseudo is "fan of Jana" but in my post I was only speaking about Hana Mandlikova, not about "Jana's achievments". And, Yes, I think she was a greater player than ASV, she had to face MN and CE at their peak, and that the 4 slams she won in singles, it was under CE and MN domination, and were harder to obtain than some of Arantx crowns. Her talent is also Way ahead. Just Watch 85'US open SF and Final, and you coulde never consider ASV a better player than Hana Mandlikova.

Nothing reporting to Jana in my posts, and By The Way, I was a Hana Mandlikova 's fans, long before knowing Jana...

selesrules
Nov 16th, 2002, 03:49 PM
Well Aranxta also benefited from Monica's stabbing, I doubt she would have been no.1 and won 2 slams in 1994 knowing that Monica had a 10-1 record against her. I have neve seen Mandlikova play so I have no clue how to rank her, but 4 slams is impressive. If Navratilova was stabbed, Mandlikova would have won more. Damn that Parche shitbag, he just ruined everything and we can never know :(

fan of Jana
Nov 16th, 2002, 04:05 PM
Maybe, but I'd never wish Martina Beeing stabbed! Thanks god!

selesrules
Nov 16th, 2002, 04:27 PM
Nobody is wishing for anyone to be stabbed, I'm just talking about if "the dominating player is out"...

Steffica Greles
Nov 16th, 2002, 05:28 PM
But Aranxta, let's not forget, still did beat Steffi Graf when she was at her very peak.

After the 1994 Australian Open, when Graf crushed Sanchez-V in the final, she had barely lost a match since Seles was stabbed.

Like a true champion, Aranxta raised her game to match that of Graf's. That year, she inflicted some stinging defeats on Graf in Hamburg, Toronto and New York, leaving it beyond dispute that, if only for a short period, she was the world's most prestigous player.

Mandlikova may have inconsistently beaten both Evert and Navratilova, but she lost to so many inferior players. Aranxta was in ten RG semi-finals or better; she was in ALL of the slam finals at least twice, and won the US Open, proving she was able to beat the very best on hardcourts as well as clay.

Aranxta's defeat of Seles in the 98 RG final should also not be underestimated. Everyone believed it was Seles' day, including, I believe, Monica. Seles owned Sanchez-Vicario, and came on the court hitting ferociously, trying to overpower Aranxta as she had always done on previous occasions.

Any other player would have been resigned to her fate, but Aranxta fought like a dog to prevent was seemed an inevitable outcome.