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View Full Version : WWW: Peak Sharapova V Peak Venus


Galang
Jan 1st, 2012, 02:54 AM
As the off season is drawing to a close, I thought I'd create one more peak thread between two of the greatest.

rimon
Jan 1st, 2012, 03:00 AM
Venus would win on grass and hard fast court. Maria would win on clay and slow and medium hard court

ElusiveChanteuse
Jan 1st, 2012, 03:05 AM
Peak Masha never win 35(?) singles matches in a row and winning 2 slams + Olympic gold medal (and other 3 events), as well as winning in doubles. Period.

skanky~skanketta
Jan 1st, 2012, 04:07 AM
Venus would win on grass and hard fast court. Maria would win on clay and slow and medium hard court No. Just no. Does your bias and stupidity know no bounds?

Fighterpova
Jan 1st, 2012, 05:50 AM
I voted Venus. And I think she would win on all surfaces too.

Peak Venus was a scary beast :eek:(in a good way ofc)

Maddox
Jan 1st, 2012, 06:07 AM
Maria can win on slower hardcourts and indoors I'd give Masha the edge.

But everything else Venus would win

BlueTrees
Jan 1st, 2012, 06:29 AM
Venus would win on grass and hard fast court. Maria would win on clay and slow and medium hard court

Yep, you tell yourself that. :hug:

Mistress of Evil
Jan 1st, 2012, 06:42 AM
Really, bitch, really! Just go hide yourself!

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkwemmyML81qafrh6.png

Steven.
Jan 1st, 2012, 09:21 AM
Slow hardcourts, Maria would win. Everywhere else is Venus' to lose.

claypova
Jan 1st, 2012, 10:02 AM
where have you been? a thread was already created (kind of) by vikapower :oh:

doomsday
Jan 1st, 2012, 10:13 AM
Off season is already closed.:wavey:

Galang
Jan 1st, 2012, 11:49 AM
Off season is already closed.:wavey:

thanks for the update, bab

AcesHigh
Jan 1st, 2012, 01:57 PM
Thread was already made and it was pretty much decided Venus would win everywhere :shrug:

spencercarlos
Jan 1st, 2012, 03:27 PM
Peak Venus everywhere and in two sets like 6-4 6-3 at most.

it-girl
Jan 1st, 2012, 06:35 PM
I voted Venus. And I think she would win on all surfaces too.

Peak Venus was a scary beast :eek:(in a good way ofc)I agree with your entire comment and my reason is the same as yours. Peak Venus was definitely a scary beast:lol:

Kairi
Jan 1st, 2012, 06:41 PM
Venus would win on grass and hard fast court. Maria would win on clay and slow and medium hard court

:facepalm: what nonsense

VeeJJ
Jan 1st, 2012, 08:10 PM
Venus everywhere, everyplanet, every demension. Just everywhere.

Barktra
Jan 1st, 2012, 08:14 PM
J1gOhrxG0cU

Is say Venus because of this match. I am scared of how good she was here.

Brad[le]y.
Jan 1st, 2012, 08:15 PM
J1gOhrxG0cU

Is say Venus because of this match. I am scared of how good she was here.

fixed the coding :lol:

Kairi
Jan 1st, 2012, 08:27 PM
J1gOhrxG0cU

Is say Venus because of this match. I am scared of how good she was here.

Holy Hell! :worship: :eek: :bowdown:

John.
Jan 1st, 2012, 10:22 PM
Maria could only dream of reaching the level Venus had for parts of 00/01/02

mistymore
Jan 1st, 2012, 10:31 PM
Anyone who thinks Maria would have the edge on clay obviously didnt watch Venus play from 99-2004 when she was at the best on that surface. Granted even then she could be erratic on slow courts, but her best on clay of those years would clearly beat anything Maria has thus far shown on the surface. Maria playing her best clay tennis ever couldnt even reach the FO final in the most lame clay court field we have ever seen.

The only surface Maria might have the edge is Australian hard courts I guess.

Galang
Jan 1st, 2012, 10:34 PM
Maria could only dream of reaching the level Venus had for parts of 00/01/02

Just out of interest, as I wasn't watching tennis during these years; how close was Maria at her peak to the sort of levels of tennis Venus was producing?

Sammo
Jan 1st, 2012, 10:40 PM
The off season is over, no more f*cking peak threads

BlueTrees
Jan 1st, 2012, 10:40 PM
Just out of interest, as I wasn't watching tennis during these years; how close was Maria at her peak to the sort of levels of tennis Venus was producing?

Nowhere near. Happy new year. :wavey:

Dominic
Jan 1st, 2012, 10:53 PM
Just out of interest, as I wasn't watching tennis during these years; how close was Maria at her peak to the sort of levels of tennis Venus was producing?

Pretty close, Maria has a better forehand than Venus back in her heydays. Comparable backhands. Venus' first serve had more pace, Maria's second serve was probably slightly better. Venus moved better and had better netskills. Peak Maria has the edge in mentality.

mistymore
Jan 1st, 2012, 10:56 PM
Peak Maria does not have the edge in mentality at all. Maria at her peak lost 5 straight slam semis in a row, 4 of the 5 in 3 sets. Peak Maria does nothing better than peak Venus.

Viktymise
Jan 1st, 2012, 11:07 PM
J1gOhrxG0cU

Astonishing. It has to be seen to be believed how early she was taking the ball, and how easily she could shift the direction of it even off of hard, flat, deep shots from the other end. Some of those impossible looking winners were just jaw-dropping too.

madmax
Jan 1st, 2012, 11:08 PM
Peak Maria does not have the edge in mentality at all. Maria at her peak lost 5 straight slam semis in a row, 4 of the 5 in 3 sets. Peak Maria does nothing better than peak Venus.

Peak Maria does plenty of things better than Venus, mainly in ballstriking and consistency department. It's really amazing how little respect Maria receives here...

Matt01
Jan 1st, 2012, 11:24 PM
Astonishing. It has to be seen to be believed how early she was taking the ball, and how easily she could shift the direction of it even off of hard, flat, deep shots from the other end. Some of those impossible looking winners were just jaw-dropping too.


What I found impressive was how well peak Venus was able to deal with the slices Monica threw in here and there. The low balls didn't bother Venus at all and she just made winner after winner. :sad:

KBdoubleu
Jan 1st, 2012, 11:29 PM
I see Venus winning on every surface.

Dominic
Jan 1st, 2012, 11:30 PM
Peak Maria does not have the edge in mentality at all. Maria at her peak lost 5 straight slam semis in a row, 4 of the 5 in 3 sets. Peak Maria does nothing better than peak Venus.

You might be right about mentality, it's pretty close, but peak Maria's forehand and second serve definitely are better than Venus' Her first serve placement as well, Venus hit it harder but it wasn't that accurate.

mistymore
Jan 1st, 2012, 11:31 PM
Peak Maria does plenty of things better than Venus, mainly in ballstriking and consistency department. It's really amazing how little respect Maria receives here...

Maria was never the best player in the World. Even peaking in the period the Williams were slumping and other than Henin there was no huge obstacle. The best she ever was is 3rd best behind Henin and Mauresmo in 2006, I mean practically not going by rankings which are retarded most times anyway. Venus was considered the best player in the World from July 2000 until March 2002 when Serena began taking over that position. Regardless her ranking everyone knew it. Maria was never in that position even in a weaker field.

Matt01
Jan 1st, 2012, 11:36 PM
Maria was never the best player in the World. Even peaking in the period the Williams were slumping and other than Henin there was no huge obstacle. The best she ever was is 3rd best behind Henin and Mauresmo in 2006, I mean practically not going by rankings which are retarded most times anyway. Venus was considered the best player in the World from July 2000 until March 2002 when Serena began taking over that position. Regardless her ranking everyone knew it. Maria was never in that position even in a weaker field.


This is simply not true. :shrug:

Venus was considered the best player in the 2nd half of 2000 and the 2nd half of 2001. That's it.

Pump-it-UP
Jan 1st, 2012, 11:37 PM
Maria could only dream of reaching the level Venus had for parts of 00/01/02

Exactly. Peak Maria's ballstriking is impressive, but anyone voting for her in this poll is just tossing her a pity vote. She'd win 6 games max.

mistymore
Jan 1st, 2012, 11:40 PM
This is simply not true. :shrug:

Venus was considered the best player in the 2nd half of 2000 and the 2nd half of 2001. That's it.

Was Venus the favorite to win every event she entered after Wimbledon 2000 until Miami 2002? The answer is YES. Thus Venus was considered the best player in the World that whole period. She didnt win every event, she isnt Steffi Graf, but she was still the best at the time and everyone who mattered in the game believed so as well including her own competitors such as Hingis and Davenport who repeatedly said during that time they knew Venus was the one to beat.

Matt01
Jan 1st, 2012, 11:44 PM
Was Venus the favorite to win every event she entered after Wimbledon 2000 until Miami 2002? The answer is YES. Thus Venus was considered the best player in the World that whole period. She didnt win every event, she isnt Steffi Graf, but she was still the best at the time and everyone who mattered in the game believed so as well including her own competitors such as Hingis and Davenport who repeatedly said during that time they knew Venus was the one to beat.


Capriati won 2 Slams in a row in 2001 and then beat Serena at Wimbledon. It was *clearly* her who was considered the best at that point. Venus' losses at AO and RG were too embarassing so I I'm not sure what you (or Hingis or Davenport) are talking about.

mistymore
Jan 1st, 2012, 11:56 PM
Capriati won 2 Slams in a row in 2001 and then beat Serena at Wimbledon. It was *clearly* her who was considered the best at that point. Venus' losses at AO and RG were too embarassing so I I'm not sure what you (or Hingis or Davenport) are talking about.

Get a clue. Nobody ever considered Capriati better than Venus. Even after Capriati won the French it was Venus who was considered the heavy favorite to win both Wimbledon and the U.S Open, and you know this unless you didnt follow tennis back then or are plain stupid. Even when Capriati held 2 slams Venus held Wimbledon, U.S Open, Miami, all in the last year, and had never lost to Capriati. Unless Capriati won one of Wimbledon or the U.S Open she was never going to be considered the best and she never was.

Just so you know beating Serena in a slam in 2001 is not some huge win. She wasnt even a top 4 seed in any of the slams.

Matt01
Jan 1st, 2012, 11:57 PM
:bs:

mistymore
Jan 2nd, 2012, 12:00 AM
Why dont you start a poll who was considered the best player in 2001 Capriati or Venus. Venus will win in a blowout. I dont know what you are smoking but Jennifer never at any point had a better record, always lost to Venus when they played, was never as respected by commentators or fellow top players.

Matt01
Jan 2nd, 2012, 12:09 AM
Capriati didn't have to beat Venus to be considered better than her when won she 2 Slams in a row while Venus lost 1:6,1:6 in one of them and in the 1st round at the other.

dsanders06
Jan 2nd, 2012, 12:23 AM
Anyone who thinks Maria would have the edge on clay obviously didnt watch Venus play from 99-2004 when she was at the best on that surface. Granted even then she could be erratic on slow courts, but her best on clay of those years would clearly beat anything Maria has thus far shown on the surface. Maria playing her best clay tennis ever couldnt even reach the FO final in the most lame clay court field we have ever seen.

The only surface Maria might have the edge is Australian hard courts I guess.

For the life of me, I have NO IDEA where this myth that Venus was great on clay in her early career came from :lol: JustineHeninFan, who generally makes more sense than most on here, says that too, but I just don't see whre it comes from. She played impressively to win Rome in 1999 (which Maria matched last year), but other than that, she did pretty much nothing else for the next 3 years, even when she was dominating on grass and quick hardcourts. And you say Maria couldn't make the final in one of the lamest claycourt fields ever, but remember the claycourt field in 2001/02 was hardly that hot either - Henin and Clijsters hadn't settled down yet, the RG dominators from the previous decade (Graf, Seles, Sanchez Vicario, Martinez, I guess Hingis to some extent) were all either gone or in terminal decline or in hibernation (Pierce)... the year Venus made her lone semifinal/final at RG, there was pretty much just Capriati left who was a semi-respectable claycourter in decent form.

Obviously no-one can ever definitively prove who wins in a peak-v-peak match-up, but I would certainly say the smart money is on Maria being remembered as the better claycourter going strictly on record - I would say she only needs one more RG semifinal to nudge ahead of Venus.

Exactly. Peak Maria's ballstriking is impressive, but anyone voting for her in this poll is just tossing her a pity vote. She'd win 6 games max.

Huh, considering you didn't answer this in the thread the other day: funny how Venus fans' usual refrain is that Slam counts decide all in peak-v-peak match-ups, yet they simultaneously ignore the fact Maria has done MUCH better at the Australian Open than Venus and blithely proclaim peak Venus to be better than peak Maria on slow hardcourts, don't you think? :wavey:

Critique
Jan 2nd, 2012, 12:24 AM
Peak Venus would win on every surface. She was a much better clay courter than Maria at their respective peaks.

It's shocking that some clueless posters are claiming that Venus wasn't the one to beat in 00 - 01. Anyone who actually followed the tour back then knows that this claim is ridiculous.

KBdoubleu
Jan 2nd, 2012, 12:35 AM
Capriati didn't have to beat Venus to be considered better than her when won she 2 Slams in a row while Venus lost 1:6,1:6 in one of them and in the 1st round at the other.

So Capriati's resume of 3 titles in 17 tournaments played (2 slams and Charleston) in 2001 is considered better than Venus' 6 titles in 12 tournaments played (i.e. half the tournaments she played...2 slams, Miami, Hamburg, San Diego, New Haven)? That's news to me. Capriati was 0-3 vs. Venus in '01 - winning just one set. Additionally, Capriati was just 10-10 vs. the top 10. Venus was 14-1 vs. the top 10. In order to be considered the best, you have to be able to beat the best more than just 50% of the time.

Leo_DFP
Jan 2nd, 2012, 12:39 AM
2005 Wimbledon SF was probably the best example. Peak Venus had that extra answer to Peak Maria.

It would be on all surfaces, no doubt. Peak Venus was almost equally scary on all surfaces; obviously less so on clay but still better than Maria.

Matt01
Jan 2nd, 2012, 12:39 AM
So Capriati's resume of 3 titles in 17 tournaments played (2 slams and Charleston) in 2001 is considered better than Venus' 6 titles in 12 tournaments played (i.e. half the tournaments she played...2 slams, Miami, Hamburg, San Diego, New Haven)? That's news to me. Capriati was 0-3 vs. Venus in '01 - winning just one set. Additionally, Capriati was just 10-10 vs. the top 10. Venus was 14-1 vs. the top 10. In order to be considered the best, you have to be able to beat the best more than just 50% of the time.


No. To be considered the best, you have to win the biggest tournaments, which are the Slams. You can read that in any and every Woz thread in GM.

And I did not say that Venus in 2001 was worse than Capriati in 2001, I'm just disputing that Venus was considered the best in the first half of 2001 or in any of 2002. Which is just stating the obvious I think.

Leo_DFP
Jan 2nd, 2012, 12:44 AM
Huh, considering you didn't answer this in the thread the other day: funny how Venus fans' usual refrain is that Slam counts decide all in peak-v-peak match-ups, yet they simultaneously ignore the fact Maria has done MUCH better at the Australian Open than Venus and blithely proclaim peak Venus to be better than peak Maria on slow hardcourts, don't you think? :wavey:

I think you misunderstand the threads. It's not about whose results are better but who wins the match up. Maria matches up poorly with Venus.

mistymore
Jan 2nd, 2012, 12:46 AM
No. To be considered the best, you have to win the biggest tournaments, which are the Slams.

And at the end of the first half of 2001 Venus was reigning Wimbledon, U.S Open, and Miami Champion. Her only major loss before the semis was the 2001 French. Capriati was Australian and French Champion, and lost in the round of 16 of Wimbledon, U.S Open, and WTA Championships all within the past year at that point. Venus at every given point in time had won more and bigger events, done better at big events, and done better vs other top players in the past year than Capriati. Venus was considered the heavy favorite to win both Wimbledon and the U.S Open still at that point. Do you think anyone really expected Capriati to win Wimbledon even after her 2 slams, dont be an idiot. You can continue to spin your wheels but just accept you are wrong. From mid 2000 to early 2002 Venus was always considered the best player and one to beat. Like it or not it is fact.

Viktymise
Jan 2nd, 2012, 12:47 AM
Obviously no-one can ever definitively prove who wins in a peak-v-peak match-up, but I would certainly say the smart money is on Maria being remembered as the better claycourter going strictly on record - I would say she only needs one more RG semifinal to nudge ahead of Venus.

Er, no. Sharapova's record on clay outside of RG isn't even half as good as Venus'.

Sharapova's never had any huge wins on clay.

Matt01
Jan 2nd, 2012, 12:47 AM
And at the end of the first half of 2001 Venus was reigning Wimbledon, U.S Open, and Miami Champion. Her only major loss before the semis was the 2001 French. Capriati was Australian and French Champion, and lost in the round of 16 of Wimbledon, U.S Open, and WTA Championships all within the past year at that point. Venus at every given point in time had won more and bigger events, done better at big events, and done better vs other top players in the past year than Capriati. Venus was considered the heavy favorite to win both Wimbledon and the U.S Open still at that point. Do you think anyone really expected Capriati to win Wimbledon even after her 2 slams, dont be an idiot. You can continue to spin your wheels but just accept you are wrong. From mid 2000 to early 2002 Venus was always considered the best player and one to beat. Like it or not it is fact.


:rolls: I rest my case.

Galang
Jan 2nd, 2012, 12:52 AM
Er, no. Sharapova's record on clay outside of RG isn't even half as good as Venus'.

Sharapova's never had any huge wins on clay.

Umm....how about winning Rome? Beating the world number one on her way to doing so.

serenaforever
Jan 2nd, 2012, 12:53 AM
For the life of me, I have NO IDEA where this myth that Venus was great on clay in her early career came from :lol: JustineHeninFan, who generally makes more sense than most on here, says that too, but I just don't see whre it comes from. She played impressively to win Rome in 1999 (which Maria matched last year), but other than that, she did pretty much nothing else for the next 3 years, even when she was dominating on grass and quick hardcourts. And you say Maria couldn't make the final in one of the lamest claycourt fields ever, but remember the claycourt field in 2001/02 was hardly that hot either - Henin and Clijsters hadn't settled down yet, the RG dominators from the previous decade (Graf, Seles, Sanchez Vicario, Martinez, I guess Hingis to some extent) were all either gone or in terminal decline or in hibernation (Pierce)... the year Venus made her lone semifinal/final at RG, there was pretty much just Capriati left who was a semi-respectable claycourter in decent form.

Obviously no-one can ever definitively prove who wins in a peak-v-peak match-up, but I would certainly say the smart money is on Maria being remembered as the better claycourter going strictly on record - I would say she only needs one more RG semifinal to nudge ahead of Venus.




The posts I've seen aren't saying she was great, just better than Maria. Which is true.

Matt01
Jan 2nd, 2012, 12:54 AM
The posts I've seen aren't saying she was great, just better than Maria. Which is true.


Yep.

serenaforever
Jan 2nd, 2012, 12:56 AM
Capriati won 2 Slams in a row in 2001 and then beat Serena at Wimbledon. It was *clearly* her who was considered the best at that point. Venus' losses at AO and RG were too embarassing so I I'm not sure what you (or Hingis or Davenport) are talking about.

Over Venus? :lol: No.

Viktymise
Jan 2nd, 2012, 12:56 AM
Umm....how about winning Rome? Beating the world number one on her way to doing so.

Shockingly, I don't regard beating wastes of space like Failniacki as "huge wins".

serenaforever
Jan 2nd, 2012, 12:58 AM
Peak Venus would win on every surface. She was a much better clay courter than Maria at their respective peaks.

It's shocking that some clueless posters are claiming that Venus wasn't the one to beat in 00 - 01. Anyone who actually followed the tour back then knows that this claim is ridiculous.

:yeah:

Galang
Jan 2nd, 2012, 12:59 AM
Shockingly, I don't regard beating wastes of space like Failniacki as "huge wins".

Like it or not, Wozniacki was the world number one and Maria beat her, that's a pretty good achievment in itself.

How about her wins over Azarenka and Stosur in the same tournament?

Leo_DFP
Jan 2nd, 2012, 12:59 AM
Peak Maria does plenty of things better than Venus, mainly in ballstriking and consistency department. It's really amazing how little respect Maria receives here...

Look at Maria's career as a whole, and she never achieved the years of excellence that many greater champions did - i.e. Seles, both Williams, Davenport, Hingis, Clijsters, Henin, etc. She's been erratic with scattered results. Her most consistent form was 05-06 but even then she was largely helpless against the top players and didn't have enough excellence off the ground to beat them.

The one time Maria really looked like the best in the world was early '08, but then it was snatched from her due to shoulder problems and she sat out for a year. Serena reestablished herself as the woman to beat later that season.

Matt01
Jan 2nd, 2012, 01:00 AM
Over Venus? :lol: No.


Errr...yes. :rolleyes:

Miss Atomic Bomb
Jan 2nd, 2012, 01:02 AM
You know the Maria fans have run out of arguments when they bring up Maria's *win* over Azarenka where Vika retired after being up a set :lol: But then again, they also consider beating Wozniacki on clay a big win :lol:

Kairi
Jan 2nd, 2012, 01:02 AM
Errr...yes. :rolleyes:
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lx24p4yb6U1qenroy.jpg

Matt01
Jan 2nd, 2012, 01:03 AM
Like it or not, Wozniacki was the world number one and Maria beat her, that's a pretty good achievment in itself.

How about her wins over Azarenka and Stosur in the same tournament?


Please. :rolleyes:

Winning Rome by beating Woz and Sam was a good result but Venus on clay already did better. E.g. peak Venus did beat Henin on clay.

Galang
Jan 2nd, 2012, 01:04 AM
Please. :rolleyes:

Winning Rome by beating Woz and Sam was a good result but Venus on clay already did better. E.g. peak Venus did beat Henin on clay.

I'm not saying Maria is better on clay, I'm just arguing that she has had some decent wins on the surface.

dsanders06
Jan 2nd, 2012, 01:05 AM
I think you misunderstand the threads. It's not about whose results are better but who wins the match up. Maria matches up poorly with Venus.

*I* agree with that, but Venus stans always cite Venus's superior Slam count as proof in itself that she at her peak would beat Maria. They can't have it both ways by claiming that AND at the same time saying peak Venus would beat peak Maria on slow HCs despite the difference in their AO records.

And as for "Maria matches up poorly with Venus" - they're 3-3 head-to-head begs to differ.

Shockingly, I don't regard beating wastes of space like Failniacki as "huge wins".

The only time Venus ever got anything approaching a "big win" on clay was when she beat Hingis in Rome in '99. And even that might be retrospectively seen as smaller than Maria's win over Stosur in last year's Rome final if Stosur goes onto become an RG champion (as I suspect she will).

dsanders06
Jan 2nd, 2012, 01:10 AM
Please. :rolleyes:

Winning Rome by beating Woz and Sam was a good result but Venus on clay already did better. E.g. peak Venus did beat Henin on clay.

On green clay :tape:

Matt01
Jan 2nd, 2012, 01:11 AM
I'm not saying Maria is better on clay, I'm just arguing that she has had some decent wins on the surface.


OK, but then you shouldn't bring up that match against Vika (which technically counts as a win but let's stay realistic). Yes, Maria had some decent wins on clay, as a Woz fan I guess I have to admit that :p ;)

Matt01
Jan 2nd, 2012, 01:13 AM
On green clay :tape:


Green clay is clay, no? :shrug:

And she also has wins over Hingis, Pierce, Seles and ASV on red clay.

madmax
Jan 2nd, 2012, 01:16 AM
Look at Maria's career as a whole, and she never achieved the years of excellence that many greater champions did - i.e. Seles, both Williams, Davenport, Hingis, Clijsters, Henin, etc. She's been erratic with scattered results. Her most consistent form was 05-06 but even then she was largely helpless against the top players and didn't have enough excellence off the ground to beat them.

The one time Maria really looked like the best in the world was early '08, but then it was snatched from her due to shoulder problems and she sat out for a year. Serena reestablished herself as the woman to beat later that season.

it doesn't matter if Maria was erratic or not - this is "peak" thread at the end of the day...and no, Maria's peak wasn't in 2006, but in late 2007 - early 2008, when her game was becoming very consistent up untill that unfortunate injury.

dsanders06
Jan 2nd, 2012, 01:21 AM
Green clay is clay, no? :shrug:

And she also has wins over Hingis, Pierce, Seles and ASV on red clay.

She beat ASV and Seles when they were in terminal decline. I guess Pierce in '99 is a decent win, though by the same token, I guess Maria beating Pierce on clay a few weeks before Pierce made the RG final in 2005 would have to go down as a decent win too. Eitherway, Venus and Maria are clearly on the same ballpark in terms of "big wins" on clay.

Viktymise
Jan 2nd, 2012, 01:31 AM
The only time Venus ever got anything approaching a "big win" on clay was when she beat Hingis in Rome in '99. And even that might be retrospectively seen as smaller than Maria's win over Stosur in last year's Rome final if Stosur goes onto become an RG champion (as I suspect she will).

1) That logic is stupid. Stosur hasn't won RG, and will never be considered in the same league as Hingis regardless.

2) Green clay is clay. And if we're not including green clay then their overall clay records are even further apart.

KBdoubleu
Jan 2nd, 2012, 01:48 AM
For the life of me, I have NO IDEA where this myth that Venus was great on clay in her early career came from :lol: JustineHeninFan, who generally makes more sense than most on here, says that too, but I just don't see whre it comes from. She played impressively to win Rome in 1999 (which Maria matched last year), but other than that, she did pretty much nothing else for the next 3 years, even when she was dominating on grass and quick hardcourts. And you say Maria couldn't make the final in one of the lamest claycourt fields ever, but remember the claycourt field in 2001/02 was hardly that hot either - Henin and Clijsters hadn't settled down yet, the RG dominators from the previous decade (Graf, Seles, Sanchez Vicario, Martinez, I guess Hingis to some extent) were all either gone or in terminal decline or in hibernation (Pierce)... the year Venus made her lone semifinal/final at RG, there was pretty much just Capriati left who was a semi-respectable claycourter in decent form.

Obviously no-one can ever definitively prove who wins in a peak-v-peak match-up, but I would certainly say the smart money is on Maria being remembered as the better claycourter going strictly on record - I would say she only needs one more RG semifinal to nudge ahead of Venus.


Sharapova's clay court resume does not really touch Venus'. Until this year Sharapova's biggest red clay title was Strasbourg - where the highest ranked opponent she played was #49 Medina Garrigues. She had just 2 top 10 victories (#9 Chakvetadze and #10 Dementieva) until Rome this year. She now has 5 (including the retirement by Azarenka who had already won the first set of their match, Wozniacki who had just been beaten back to back by Goerges, and Stosur who matches up terribly against Sharapova). Venus had 5 top 10 clay court victories by the time she was 18. Additionally, Venus has outperformed or equaled Sharapova at every significant clay court event (in terms of their best performance).

Clay Court Titles
Venus: 9
Sharapova: 3

Clay Court Winning Percentage:
Venus: 79%
Sharapova:75%

Best FO Performance:
Venus: Finalist
Sharapova: SF

dsanders06
Jan 2nd, 2012, 02:03 AM
Sharapova's clay court resume does not really touch Venus'. Until this year Sharapova's biggest red clay title was Strasbourg - where the highest ranked opponent she played was #49 Medina Garrigues. She had just 2 top 10 victories (#9 Chakvetadze and #10 Dementieva) until Rome this year. She now has 5 (including the retirement by Azarenka who had already won the first set of their match, Wozniacki who had just been beaten back to back by Goerges, and Stosur who matches up terribly against Sharapova). Venus had 5 top 10 clay court victories by the time she was 18. Additionally, Venus has outperformed or equaled Sharapova at every significant clay court event (in terms of their best performance).

Clay Court Titles
Venus: 9
Sharapova: 3

Clay Court Winning Percentage:
Venus: 79%
Sharapova:75%

Best FO Performance:
Venus: Finalist
Sharapova: SF

:lol: I love how one minute Venus fans are saying it's all about the Slams, then the next minute they're trying to claim that all Venus's crappy Istanbul and Hamburg titles and whatever else earns her points :lol:

I agree Venus is marginally ahead of Maria on clay AS OF NOW because Venus's RG final trumps Maria's two RG semis, but one more semifinal and Maria is probably ahead of her going purely on RG, agreed? And then they have one Tier 1 (red) clay title apiece, which is the only level that counts when we're comparing THE ELITE outside of the Woztards' universe :lol: So it basically rests on their RG records, and as said, Maria gets one more semifinal and in my book she's ahead...if she ever makes a RG final or wins it, it's really game over.

Aaron.
Jan 2nd, 2012, 02:08 AM
:lol: I love how one minute Venus fans are saying it's all about the Slams, then the next minute they're trying to claim that all Venus's crappy Istanbul and Hamburg titles and whatever else earns her points :lol:

I agree Venus is marginally ahead of Maria on clay AS OF NOW because Venus's RG final trumps Maria's two RG semis, but one more semifinal and Maria is probably ahead of her going purely on RG, agreed? And then they have one Tier 1 (red) clay title apiece, which is the only level that counts when we're comparing THE ELITE outside of the Woztards' universe :lol: So it basically rests on their RG records, and as said, Maria gets one more semifinal and in my book she's ahead...if she ever makes a RG final or wins it, it's really game over. Don't act like Maria hasn't won any clay MM's. 2 of her 3 titles are MM's which were counted in her clay court resume

Maria is unlikely to win RG...more unlikely then Venus. Just saying..

dsanders06
Jan 2nd, 2012, 02:10 AM
Don't act like Maria hasn't won any clay MM's. 2 of her 3 titles are MM's which were counted in her clay court resume

Maria is unlikely to win RG...more unlikely then Venus. Just saying..

Whatever gets you through the day :hug:

Aaron.
Jan 2nd, 2012, 02:12 AM
Whatever gets you through the day :hug: What qualities does Maria have that give her a great chance of winning RG? Enlighten me please. Her best bet is AO and US Open. Her game isn't suited for grass IMO.

Matt01
Jan 2nd, 2012, 02:15 AM
What qualities does Maria have that give her a great chance of winning RG? Enlighten me please. Her best bet is AO and US Open. Her game isn't suited for grass IMO.


Her best quality is the currently weak field clay field...

Aaron.
Jan 2nd, 2012, 02:23 AM
Her best quality is the currently weak field clay field... She still loses to any decent person on clay i.e Schiavone, Kuznetsova(when playing decently), Jankovic (even though they never played on clay), Ivanovic, Pennetta

Her movement hinders her much more on clay then any other surface because once she's stretched out wide it's hard for her to get back on offense because of her slow footspeed and inability to slide properly and she can't hit through people in a couple of shots and also her serve has regressed. She can't run around her forehand i.e Schiavone or Ivanovic and she does not use much spin like those other girls I mentioned which makes her groundies less effective on the dirt. She's beaten like 4 top ten players on clay with Azarenka retiring, Stosur who has a 1-9 H2H against her and Wozniacki who lost to Hantuchova 6-1, 6-3 which says ALOT about Wozniacki on red clay.

KBdoubleu
Jan 2nd, 2012, 03:07 AM
:lol: I love how one minute Venus fans are saying it's all about the Slams, then the next minute they're trying to claim that all Venus's crappy Istanbul and Hamburg titles and whatever else earns her points :lol:

I agree Venus is marginally ahead of Maria on clay AS OF NOW because Venus's RG final trumps Maria's two RG semis, but one more semifinal and Maria is probably ahead of her going purely on RG, agreed? And then they have one Tier 1 (red) clay title apiece, which is the only level that counts when we're comparing THE ELITE outside of the Woztards' universe :lol: So it basically rests on their RG records, and as said, Maria gets one more semifinal and in my book she's ahead...if she ever makes a RG final or wins it, it's really game over.

Believe it or not - not all people in a single fan base have the same point of view. Of course slams are the most important events and generally the best do shine there - but I don't think you can be so myopic as to ignore the rest of Venus' and Sharapova's clay results when evaluating them as clay courters. Venus has the tendency to underperform at the FO (based on her other clay results) and Sharapova, it would seem to me, overachieves at the French Open (based on her clay results outside of the tournament) - yet Venus' best result at the tournament exceeds Sharapova's. I don't think you can ignore the fact that Sharapova has played just one very good clay tournament outside the French in her entire career. Venus at least has a finals appearance at Rome, Madrid & Berlin - in addition to multiple SF appearances (and a title at tier 1 green clay Charleston). Also, Hamburg was no Strasburg. Venus had to beat players like Pierce, Hingis, Coetzer, and Sanchez Vicario to win her titles there. Not Dia Evtimova and Kristina Barrois as Sharapova had to do at Strasbourg.

rimon
Jan 2nd, 2012, 04:19 AM
To all of those of you going on at me for picking Maria on clay; at their absolute peaks, Maria had far better consistency than Venus. Consistency is paramount to winning on clay, and therefore, I pick Maria.

Aaron.
Jan 2nd, 2012, 05:02 AM
To all of those of you going on at me for picking Maria on clay; at their absolute peaks, Maria had far better consistency than Venus. Consistency is paramount to winning on clay, and therefore, I pick Maria. Why did Na Li win then?

And Maria may be consistent but she uses little topspin, does not move well, and is error prone.

Some of you are really deluded if you think Maria can out rally Venus on clay. One good angle and Maria is finished. If you Maria fans really think she's good in long rallies then :help:

VeeJJ
Jan 2nd, 2012, 05:10 AM
The fact that this is an actual debate is mind boggling :weirdo:

Aaron.
Jan 2nd, 2012, 05:16 AM
The fact that this is an actual debate is mind boggling :weirdo: Really it is..Maria never won two slams back to back and didn't dominate like Venus did. Actually Maria never dominated at any point in her career.

Leo St
Jan 2nd, 2012, 05:33 AM
its only a debate because we're here answering those people.. rimon dislikes venus, so does dsanders, of course they will have something bad to say against her whenever they have a chance.. so just ignore it, because those facts that we defend are well stabilished in the tennis comunity.. one peak was able to get four slams in a competitive draw, another was able to get one slam? the aus? never dominance.. maria is a legend but to compare her peak game with venus' is kinda outragious too and everyone in this discussion, entering to vote for maria knows it

ElusiveChanteuse
Jan 2nd, 2012, 06:02 AM
When was peak Masha anyway?:oh: AO '08?:oh: or Rome '11?:haha: and the thought of Masha to win over Vee on clay at their peak based on her Rome title?:haha:

bandabou
Jan 2nd, 2012, 06:34 AM
Any fast surface-> Vee wins
Slow surface-> Masha's odd increase..but no guarantees even there.

Kairi
Jan 2nd, 2012, 07:01 AM
When was peak Masha anyway?:oh: AO '08?:oh: or Rome '11?:haha: and the thought of Masha to win over Vee on clay at their peak based on her Rome title?:haha:

2006 Indian Wells :oh:

rimon
Jan 2nd, 2012, 08:39 AM
To all of those above, it isn't about results. It's about match-ups. No one is implying that Maria is greater than Venus, that would be as absurd as arguing that Navratilova is greater than Court. We're saying that it comes down to the match-up. For example, I would bet that peak Pironkova would beat peak Venus, but that in no way makes her greater.

You're off your tree if you think that peak Venus would beat peak Maria on a slow hard-court.

claypova
Jan 2nd, 2012, 08:42 AM
To all of those above, it isn't about results. It's about match-ups. No one is implying that Maria is greater than Venus, that would be as absurd as arguing that Navratilova is greater than Court. We're saying that it comes down to the match-up. For example, I would bet that peak Pironkova would beat peak Venus, but that in no way makes her greater.

You're off your tree if you think that peak Venus would beat peak Maria on a slow hard-court.

what a mess :happy:

rimon
Jan 2nd, 2012, 09:15 AM
what a mess :happy:

Please explain.

bandabou
Jan 2nd, 2012, 09:46 AM
To all of those above, it isn't about results. It's about match-ups. No one is implying that Maria is greater than Venus, that would be as absurd as arguing that Navratilova is greater than Court. We're saying that it comes down to the match-up. For example, I would bet that peak Pironkova would beat peak Venus, but that in no way makes her greater.

You're off your tree if you think that peak Venus would beat peak Maria on a slow hard-court.

:spit: WhAATTT?! Peak Pironkova..you had to go there, huh. Radwamska, Oudin beat Masha on HC's too, no?! Ain't hearing you about that one.

Anyways..it's equally foolish to think that Sharapova beats peak Vee on grass or any fast surface. :wavey:

rimon
Jan 2nd, 2012, 09:49 AM
:spit: WhAATTT?! Peak Pironkova..you had to go there, huh. Radwamska, Oudin beat Masha on HC's too, no?! Ain't hearing you about that one.

Anyways..it's equally foolish to think that Sharapova beats peak Vee on grass or any fast surface. :wavey:

1. Yes, but they have one win each against Maria. Pironkova owns Venus, 3-1, and is an absolute nightmare match-up for her.

2. I totally agree on that point.

Btw, happy new year, bandabou. It's been ages, I've missed our constant disagreements.

bandabou
Jan 2nd, 2012, 10:28 AM
1. Yes, but they have one win each against Maria. Pironkova owns Venus, 3-1, and is an absolute nightmare match-up for her.

2. I totally agree on that point.

Btw, happy new year, bandabou. It's been ages, I've missed our constant disagreements.

:sobbing: Veee!

Happy new year to you, m'am! :wavey:

:lol: It's funny because we actually agree most of the time..;)

it-girl
Jan 2nd, 2012, 10:43 AM
To all of those above, it isn't about results. It's about match-ups. No one is implying that Maria is greater than Venus, that would be as absurd as arguing that Navratilova is greater than Court. We're saying that it comes down to the match-up. For example, I would bet that peak Pironkova would beat peak Venus, but that in no way makes her greater.

You're off your tree if you think that peak Venus would beat peak Maria on a slow hard-court.I am sorry but peak Venus is not losing to any form of Pironkova. To even make that statement is hilarious, especially when you consider in 2005 Venus was playing better than she had in a while and beat Pironkova quite handily. With Pironkova it is not about match ups for Venus. It is about Venus not playing well at all in those matches and anyone can see from those losses against Pironkova that Venus was far from playing any form of even her good tennis, let alone her the best.

And yes peak Venus would beat peak Maria on any Surface. This is not an insult to Maria or her abilities. Peak Venus was just that good. If you review any of Venus's matches during that time, you will understand why.

Galang
Jan 2nd, 2012, 11:17 AM
To all of those above, it isn't about results. It's about match-ups. No one is implying that Maria is greater than Venus, that would be as absurd as arguing that Navratilova is greater than Court. We're saying that it comes down to the match-up. For example, I would bet that peak Pironkova would beat peak Venus, but that in no way makes her greater.

You're off your tree if you think that peak Venus would beat peak Maria on a slow hard-court.

:worship:

L'Enfant Sauvage
Jan 2nd, 2012, 11:23 AM
To all of those above, it isn't about results. It's about match-ups. No one is implying that Maria is greater than Venus, that would be as absurd as arguing that Navratilova is greater than Court. We're saying that it comes down to the match-up. For example, I would bet that peak Pironkova would beat peak Venus, but that in no way makes her greater.

You're off your tree if you think that peak Venus would beat peak Maria on a slow hard-court.

This post is a mess on so many levels(well three to be precise,) that I'm not even going to give it a serious response.

rimon
Jan 2nd, 2012, 12:18 PM
:sobbing: Veee!

Happy new year to you, m'am! :wavey:

:lol: It's funny because we actually agree most of the time..;)

:lol: True. Despite our bickering, I do like you.

rimon
Jan 2nd, 2012, 12:21 PM
I am sorry but peak Venus is not losing to any form of Pironkova. To even make that statement is hilarious, especially when you consider in 2005 Venus was playing better than she had in a while and beat Pironkova quite handily. With Pironkova it is not about match ups for Venus. It is about Venus not playing well at all in those matches and anyone can see from those losses against Pironkova that Venus was far from playing any form of even her good tennis, let alone her the best.

And yes peak Venus would beat peak Maria on any Surface. This is not an insult to Maria or her abilities. Peak Venus was just that good. If you review any of Venus's matches during that time, you will understand why.

I think that that was her very first tournament. As it stands, she leads Venus 3-1. Some top players just have bogey players; that is, far inferior players, who just pose a nightmare match-up for them. McEnroe had one, though I can't remember his name.

I've been watching tennis since 1965, so I've seen both of their peaks. To say that Venus would win on slow hard-court is insane.

rimon
Jan 2nd, 2012, 12:22 PM
:worship:

Thanks. IMO, Venus fans, on average, are the most delusional.

rimon
Jan 2nd, 2012, 12:23 PM
This post is a mess on so many levels(well three to be precise,) that I'm not even going to give it a serious response.

No come on, please do elaborate.

bandabou
Jan 2nd, 2012, 12:32 PM
:lol: True. Despite our bickering, I do like you.

Well, thanks! It's just passionate about our favs, that we can't see the truth in front of us. :lol:

Leo St
Jan 2nd, 2012, 01:37 PM
the moment you said "peak pironkova" (does that exist?) would beat 2001 venus williams or even 2005 wimbledon you put your hater status out there. its crystal clear.. about sharapova on slow hard, yes dear, venus fans are so insane and delusional about her winning there that she leads the poll 81%. her fanbase must be dominating tf then. just think that if maria sharapova had a secure win in one of the four surfaces and "even clay" as some crazies stated here, the poll would be half-half. sorry, deny that please. and then, after you do, tell me for real that peak sharapova would take a set off 2003 serena on slow hard, come and lie to me again. but for the first argument of my post, i officially dont care anymore.

mistymore
Jan 2nd, 2012, 02:02 PM
What is this nonsense of some posters with Maria having the edge on Venus on clay. Yeah Venus isnt the best clay courter ever, but this is Maria Sharapova on clay we are talking about, not Justine Henin.

Brad[le]y.
Jan 2nd, 2012, 03:41 PM
Peak Pironkova? She only shows up when Venus is on her side of the draw.

:spit:

Holdsworth
Jan 2nd, 2012, 04:50 PM
It is necessary to create the thread "Peak Venus vs Peak Tsveti" :spit:

Charlatan
Jan 4th, 2012, 08:41 PM
Definitely venus on most surfaces, may be except slow hardcourts

Sharapova would put up some fight but I doubt she could even take a set from vee: like a tough first set 7-5 (or 6-4), and 6-3 (or 6-2)

btw, has pironkova peak ever existed? :lol:

justineheninfan
Jan 4th, 2012, 08:49 PM
Peak Pironkova? She only shows up when Venus is on her side of the draw.

:spit:

Pironkova doesnt play special tennis even against Venus. I have seen all her wins over Venus, and I doubt she played any differently in any of them than what she normally does. Venus just inexplicablly plays so poorly each time they meet.

Queen_Vee_92
Jan 4th, 2012, 10:28 PM
Venus, and here's why.

Serve: Venus (more pace on 1st, less df's, 2nd best serve in tennis?
Forehand: Venus (never been impressed with Masha's forehand apart from GOATstralia 2008, even Venus' old sprayer was a better attacking shot)
Backhand: Venus (against pretty much anyone else peak Maria would win here, but 00-03 Venus had the best backhand of all time IMO especially DTL
Volleys: Neither, in their primes these shots would have been rare it would have been a slugfest from the back
Smash: Even
Movement: Venus (hopefully shouldn't need explaning NID)
Mentality: Masha ( only because i can't argue for Venus because of lil sis and all the GS final losses, i suspect only Serena could have broken Venus down especially in peak years cos she was strong mentally

Overall Venus, does effectively everything better in peak years. Would match Sharapovas power and importantly would outmanouver her time and again. Shame we didnt really witness it !

Novichok
Jan 4th, 2012, 10:32 PM
Peak Venus on every surface in under an hour.

Galang
Jul 1st, 2012, 01:56 PM
Bump. Let's see how PEAK CLAYPOVA 2012 matches up against PEAK VEE. I think Maria has got her 7-5, 6-2.

ElusiveChanteuse
Jul 1st, 2012, 02:00 PM
Even with a RG title, I think we still haven't seen the real PEAK POVA yet. She was lucky to win this slam in this era. If she were to be around 10 years ago, I believe she wouldn't even get past QF.:oh: Anyway, PEAK VEE will always be better than PEAK POVA.

Sharapowerr
Jul 1st, 2012, 02:02 PM
The H2H says it all,

claypova
Jul 1st, 2012, 02:04 PM
Maria is unlikely to win RG...more unlikely then Venus. Just saying..

What qualities does Maria have that give her a great chance of winning RG? Enlighten me please. Her best bet is AO and US Open. Her game isn't suited for grass IMO.

:p

Olórin
Jul 1st, 2012, 02:08 PM
The H2H says it all,

Seems some of the Sharapova fans are getting stupider by the minute, even after the worst of you got banned. H2H often doesn't say too much, in this case it says virtually nothing since all the matches have come since Venus' injury and many possibly while she has an auto-immune disease.

Ask anyone who knows anything about tennis and they will tell you that Venus Williams is a more deadly player. Even on clay, Venus at her best would be very tough for Pova to beat.

dsanders06
Jul 1st, 2012, 02:40 PM
:lol: I wonder what the people who were desperately saying Venus would beat her on clay would say now.#

Anyway, my answer's unchanged: Maria fairly comfortably on slow hardcourts and clay, Venus easily on grass, Venus edging a tight contest on quick hardcourts.

manojob
Jul 1st, 2012, 02:43 PM
Both are good players. But Sharapova is my Favorite tennis player. She is in good form by winning the french open 2012. I think she wins Wimbeldon 2012 if she shows some more dedication and hardwork on grass courts.

tennismaster8820
Jul 1st, 2012, 02:44 PM
Venus on every surface at her peak. Not even close.
Only delusional Sharapova fans would disagree.

NashaMasha
Jul 1st, 2012, 02:46 PM
H2H often doesn't say too much, in this case it says virtually nothing since all the matches have come since Venus' injury and many possibly while she has an auto-immune disease.

now it's 4-3 , it was 3-2 before Sharapova's surgery and 3-3 before Venus's results go down significantly due to her desease , Pova's wins in Zurich 2004 and in Miami 2005 (Venus has beaten Serena in straight in previous round) can hardly be called "against Venus not in form" , at Wimbledon 2005 they have highly competititve match with probably the best ever first set ....

so on grass and fast hardcourts peak Venus may beat peak Pova in a competitive match , on clay and slow hardcourts Pova - the winner

Result -Deuce

Pump-it-UP
Jul 1st, 2012, 02:47 PM
The H2H says it all,

I guess Oudin's peak is better than Maria's too then? :D

dsanders06
Jul 1st, 2012, 02:51 PM
I guess Oudin's peak is better than Maria's too then? :D

Nope, but seeing as you and the other Venus stans were insisting Slam tallies are all that count, you'll now happily concede that Maria would beat Venus on slow hardcourts and clay, yes? :oh:

it-girl
Jul 1st, 2012, 02:52 PM
Peak Venus would win every time, no matter what surface it was on.

it-girl
Jul 1st, 2012, 02:53 PM
Nope, but seeing as you and the other Venus stans were insisting Slam tallies are all that count, you'll now happily concede that Maria would beat Venus on slow hardcourts and clay, yes? :oh:Peak Venus would beat Maria on any surface.

NashaMasha
Jul 1st, 2012, 02:54 PM
I guess Oudin's peak is better than Maria's too then?

1-0 H2H are never used as a provement for anyting , at least 3 matches should be between the players

Peak Venus would beat Maria on any surface.

in Miami 2005 what Venus was on the court? or not in form Venus has beaten Serena(AO winner 2 months ago) the day before?

Marilyn Monheaux
Jul 1st, 2012, 02:58 PM
I'd say Venus, because she is the better athlete between these two.

VishaalMaria
Jul 1st, 2012, 02:58 PM
Is this even a serious question?

Venus on all surfaces in two easy sets.

Close the thread.

NashaMasha
Jul 1st, 2012, 03:00 PM
Is this even a serious question?

Venus on all surfaces in two easy sets.

Close the thread.

like in Miami 6-4 6-3 ? but in Sharapova's favour :lol:

Matt01
Jul 1st, 2012, 03:00 PM
in Miami 2005 what Venus was on the court? or not in form Venus has beaten Serena(AO winner 2 months ago) the day before?


Peak Venus existed in 2000-2002 not in 2005.

doomsday
Jul 1st, 2012, 03:02 PM
Masha fans, that's all they've got these days let them have this imaginary victory.:lol:

NashaMasha
Jul 1st, 2012, 03:03 PM
Peak Venus existed in 2000-2002 not in 2005.

Peak Sharapova existed at AO 2008 , who was eating for breakfast Justine Henin , continue

VishaalMaria
Jul 1st, 2012, 03:06 PM
like in Miami 6-4 6-3 ? but in Sharapova's favour :lol:

The Miami match? You mean the match where Venus's only win over a top tenner for quite some time was against a depressed Serena?

The only match where both were playing well was at Wimbledon 2005 which was way past Venus's peak and she still won comfortably.

Only the deluded or the ignorant would really believe that Peak Maria would beat Peak Venus. Peak Venus does everything better, including, more importantly, being a better athlete.

It's quite interesting to note, that even past her peak Hasbeenus has still made that head to head competitive against a young and healthy Maria Sharapova. And even an "off" Venus still managed to make scorelines respectful at 6-3 6-4.

VishaalMaria
Jul 1st, 2012, 03:07 PM
Masha fans, that's all they've got these days let them have this imaginary victory.:lol:

Most peak threads are "imaginery"- Whats your point?

NashaMasha
Jul 1st, 2012, 03:10 PM
The only match where both were playing well was at Wimbledon 2005 which was way past Venus's peak and she still won comfortably.

yes, yes comfortably )))))) have you watched the first set? don't forget Pova was a 18 year old teenager

Matt01
Jul 1st, 2012, 03:11 PM
Peak Sharapova existed at AO 2008 , who was eating for breakfast Justine Henin , continue


Henin was slumping in 2008. Peak Justine in 2007 beat Pova on Indoor HC which in theory should favor Pova.

Peak Venus/Justine > Pova. :wavey:

VishaalMaria
Jul 1st, 2012, 03:16 PM
yes, yes comfortably )))))) have you watched the first set? don't forget Pova was a 18 year old teenager

She won Wimbledon the year before, beating very very good grass court players in Lindsay Davenport and Serena Williams. Why didn't her "age" and inexperience affect her then?

I say "comfortably" because in the end it was comfortable. Venus just kept coming at Maria, and her athleticism enabled her to send balls back with a lot of interest.

TheDream
Jul 1st, 2012, 03:17 PM
Peak Venus on every surface.

NashaMasha
Jul 1st, 2012, 03:18 PM
Henin was slumping in 2008. Peak Justine in 2007 beat Pova on Indoor HC which in theory should favor Pova.

Peak Venus/Justine > Pova. :wavey:

just check her results in the end of 2007 ? she was beating Williamses in a row at USO , she won YEC , she has won almost all tournaments she took part..... She was a a #1 and an undisputed favourite , and beaten like a journeywoman in QF .... I guess Maria has knocked out her and finished her career in that match

doomsday
Jul 1st, 2012, 03:20 PM
The Miami match? You mean the match where Venus's only win over a top tenner for quite some time was against a depressed Serena?

The only match where both were playing well was at Wimbledon 2005 which was way past Venus's peak and she still won comfortably.

Only the deluded or the ignorant would really believe that Peak Maria would beat Peak Venus. Peak Venus does everything better, including, more importantly, being a better athlete.

It's quite interesting to note, that even past her peak Hasbeenus has still made that head to head competitive against a young and healthy Maria Sharapova. And even an "off" Venus still managed to make scorelines respectful at 6-3 6-4.

A depressed Serena:lol: the same Serena who had just won the OZ a few months before. Please it's been said to death Venus played an amazing match that day, she even had a better ratio UE/winner than Maria, I firmly believe that Maria would beat peak Vee on clay and slow HC she became the better player on those surfaces.

VishaalMaria
Jul 1st, 2012, 03:35 PM
A depressed Serena:lol: the same Serena who had just won the OZ a few months before. Please it's been said to death Venus played an amazing match that day, she even had a better ratio UE/winner than Maria, I firmly believe that Maria would beat peak Vee on clay and slow HC she became the better player on those surfaces.

Yes, she won the AO before, but after that her decline really started with injuries, withdrawals, bad losses, and a losing interest. She said after that was was depressed. Regardless of whether people want to believe her, she wasn't the same player that won the AO.

Yes Venus played a great match, but Maria was in-form and playing good tennis too. Really, that's the only match that gives an indication of both at their best which is why I brought it up in this thread.

And you havent seen Venus at her peak then, if you believe that. At her peak, Venus can match Maria and out-hit her, and then you have the fact that Venus is the better athlete. Those "amazing winners" you consider that Maria hits, Venus would get back with interest.

We shall agree to disagree.

doomsday
Jul 1st, 2012, 03:50 PM
Yes, she won the AO before, but after that her decline really started with injuries, withdrawals, bad losses, and a losing interest. She said after that was was depressed. Regardless of whether people want to believe her, she wasn't the same player that won the AO.

Yes Venus played a great match, but Maria was in-form and playing good tennis too. Really, that's the only match that gives an indication of both at their best which is why I brought it up in this thread.

And you havent seen Venus at her peak then, if you believe that. At her peak, Venus can match Maria and out-hit her, and then you have the fact that Venus is the better athlete. Those "amazing winners" you consider that Maria hits, Venus would get back with interest.

We shall agree to disagree.

Sorry but Venus' stats on slow HC and clay don't back you up on this.

Dodoboy.
Jul 1st, 2012, 04:08 PM
It's sad that this is even a 'discussion'. The real tennis fans haven't forgotten the sort of player Venus was/can be. Maria is having great results, for sure! But the sort of tennis she is producing isn't comparable to the likes of Venus in her prime. That's not her fault at all, it's the field she faces.

Galang
Jul 1st, 2012, 04:11 PM
It's sad that this is even a 'discussion'. The real tennis fans haven't forgotten the sort of player Venus was/can be. Maria is having great results, for sure! But the sort of tennis she is producing isn't comparable to the likes of Venus in her prime. That's not her fault at all, it's the field she faces.

But Sharapova is producing remarkable tennis, which I believe is definitely better than the type Venus produced at her peak (imo W 2007.) She had to beat Kvitova and Errani to take the FO title which is no easy feat as Petra is the future GOAT and Errani is the tour's clay court specialist (this generations answer to Justine Henin.)

Dodoboy.
Jul 1st, 2012, 04:12 PM
But Sharapova is producing remarkable tennis, which I believe is definitely better than the type Venus produced at her peak (imo W 2007.) She had to beat Kvitova and Errani to take the FO title which is no easy feat as Petra is the future GOAT and Errani is the tour's clay court specialist (this generations answer to Justine Henin.)

I'm trying to work out if this is a joke? There is not one single correct piece of information in that post. Almost every sentence is false.

If it's a joke/sarcasm, it's not very funny.

18majors
Jul 1st, 2012, 04:13 PM
We haven't seen peak Maria yet.

Galang
Jul 1st, 2012, 04:15 PM
I'm trying to work out if this is a joke? There is not one single correct piece of information in that post. Almost every sentence is false.

If it's a joke/sarcasm, it's not every funny.

Where is the joke :confused:

Maria is producing remarkable tennis. Check.
Kvitova is looking like the future GOAT. Check.
Errani is the tour's clay court specialist and has the opportunity to emulate Henin. IMO CHECK.

HRHoliviasmith
Jul 1st, 2012, 04:16 PM
Peak cakewalk-p.

thrust
Jul 1st, 2012, 04:17 PM
Peak Venus existed in 2000-2002 not in 2005.

True, but Venus was still winning Wimbledons then and after, whcich I suppose could make her a one surface champion after 03? I agree, that at her best, Venus was better than Maria at her best. The problem for Venus is that her peak did not last very long. Maria's best has been very inconsistant too. Yes, both have had injuries and personal problems, but so have Justine, Kim, and some other top players tool

Sharapowerr
Jul 1st, 2012, 04:18 PM
Wimbledon SF 2005 the 1 st was great!

HRHoliviasmith
Jul 1st, 2012, 04:21 PM
Where is the joke :confused:

Maria is producing remarkable tennis. Check.
Kvitova is looking like the future GOAT. Check.
Errani is the tour's clay court specialist and has the opportunity to emulate Henin. IMO CHECK.

:haha: hilarious.

Setsuna.
Jul 1st, 2012, 04:21 PM
Where is the joke :confused:

Maria is producing remarkable tennis. Check.
Kvitova is looking like the future GOAT. Check.
Errani is the tour's clay court specialist and has the opportunity to emulate Henin. IMO CHECK.

:facepalm:

Craig.
Jul 1st, 2012, 04:31 PM
Vinas obvs.

Though Peakpova is a sight to behold as well.

L'Enfant Sauvage
Jul 1st, 2012, 04:32 PM
True, but Venus was still winning Wimbledons then and after, whcich I suppose could make her a one surface champion after 03? I agree, that at her best, Venus was better than Maria at her best. The problem for Venus is that her peak did not last very long. Maria's best has been very inconsistant too. Yes, both have had injuries and personal problems, but so have Justine, Kim, and some other top players tool

I agree with the rest of your post and this isn't really pertinent to the rest of the thread, but the bolded statement over-simplifies things. It's not like all injuries are the same. Venus's abdominal injury sustained in 2003 permanently changed her game for the worse in years to come(eliminating her signature shot, the backhand especially DTL which has been AWOL since 2004, not to mention worsening her serve and movement.) Not to mention the Sjorgrens which IIRC afflicted her from 2007 until now, and has had immeasurable affects on her ability to actually compete. The same applied for Sharapova and her shoulder until 2012, in which she has so far recaptured form very much comparable to parts of her 04-08 career. Justine and Kim have had unfortunate things happen to them as well, but I can't recall any injury/disease happening to drastically change(worsen) their game, which has certainly happened to 04-current Venus and 09-11Pova.

thrust
Jul 1st, 2012, 04:47 PM
Sorry but Venus' stats on slow HC and clay don't back you up on this.

True! According to there H-H, Venus only clear advantage was on grass. Also, a players status should be based on their entire career, not just 2 or 3 years.

Matt01
Jul 1st, 2012, 04:54 PM
True, but Venus was still winning Wimbledons then and after, whcich I suppose could make her a one surface champion after 03? I agree, that at her best, Venus was better than Maria at her best. The problem for Venus is that her peak did not last very long. Maria's best has been very inconsistant too. Yes, both have had injuries and personal problems, but so have Justine, Kim, and some other top players tool


Venus was pretty much a one-surface Champion after 2002, yes.

And despite Maria's physical weaknesses which prevented her from sustaining long peak/domination periods, I consider Maria the more consistant player than Venus but Venus at her absolute best was more impressive IMO.


I agree with the rest of your post and this isn't really pertinent to the rest of the thread, but the bolded statement over-simplifies things. It's not like all injuries are the same. Venus's abdominal injury sustained in 2003 permanently changed her game for the worse in years to come(eliminating her signature shot, the backhand especially DTL which has been AWOL since 2004, not to mention worsening her serve and movement.) Not to mention the Sjorgrens which IIRC afflicted her from 2007 until now, and has had immeasurable affects on her ability to actually compete. The same applied for Sharapova and her shoulder until 2012, in which she has so far recaptured form very much comparable to parts of her 04-08 career. Justine and Kim have had unfortunate things happen to them as well, but I can't recall any injury/disease happening to drastically change(worsen) their game, which has certainly happened to 04-current Venus and 09-11Pova.


:rolleyes:
Let's stop with the comparing of injuries already. Justine also had a career-threatening illness and had retire because of an injury, Kim was out for most of 2004 as well. Comparing just just leads nowhere.
Injuries and illnesses are part of the game. Period.


But Sharapova is producing remarkable tennis, which I believe is definitely better than the type Venus produced at her peak (imo W 2007.) She had to beat Kvitova and Errani to take the FO title which is no easy feat as Petra is the future GOAT and Errani is the tour's clay court specialist (this generations answer to Justine Henin.)


:spit:

Galang
Jul 2nd, 2012, 03:55 AM
You may all laugh but Maria is producing tennis at the moment that is much better than Venus at her peak, which as I said was Wimbledon '07. So just think of what Maria at her absolute peak in Australia 2008 would do to Peak Venus. Maria would win with the loss of about 12 or so points 6-0, 6-1. She wouldn't lose a single point of serve.

Craig.
Jul 2nd, 2012, 04:00 AM
You may all laugh but Maria is producing tennis at the moment that is much better than Venus at her peak, which as I said was Wimbledon '07. So just think of what Maria at her absolute peak in Australia 2008 would do to Peak Venus. Maria would win with the loss of about 12 or so points 6-0, 6-1. She wouldn't lose a single point of serve.

You're actually serious.

fightserena!!!
Jul 2nd, 2012, 04:33 AM
You may all laugh but Maria is producing tennis at the moment that is much better than Venus at her peak, which as I said was Wimbledon '07. So just think of what Maria at her absolute peak in Australia 2008 would do to Peak Venus. Maria would win with the loss of about 12 or so points 6-0, 6-1. She wouldn't lose a single point of serve.

BAHAHA. They played the other week which you'll no doubt agree means Venus was probably playing about 10% of her peak form. If that. And I believe even then she won a point or maybe two off Maria's serve.

Or are you trying to say that Maria of July is on a completely different planet and in a different phase in her career and in no way comparable to Maria from just before the French?

justineheninfan
Jul 2nd, 2012, 04:47 AM
In terms of just peak play alone Venus beats everyone of the last 20 years other than Serena and maybe Steffi Graf. Peak Seles might have been better overall, but peak Venus sure as heck would win the H2H between them given the matchup.

MrProdigy555
Jul 2nd, 2012, 05:15 AM
Peak Venus would absolutely slaughter Sharapova. Has the advantage in every category. Speed, Power, Intelligence, Serve...would absolutely murder her.

Potato
Jul 2nd, 2012, 05:24 AM
I don't really see any department Maria trumps Venus in.

Maybe lefty forehand? :oh:

Dominic
Jul 2nd, 2012, 05:25 AM
That is very VERY exagerated Daniel

Dominic
Jul 2nd, 2012, 05:30 AM
Serve: Close Venus has a slight advantage on first serve but Maria's second serve at her peak was better and more consistent

Forehand: Maria

Backhand: tie

volleys: Venus

Speed: Venus

Mentality: Maria

Venus would probably win on faster surfaces and Maria on slower ones.

MrProdigy555
Jul 2nd, 2012, 05:30 AM
That is very VERY exagerated Daniel
I don't care about your opinion though.

Dominic
Jul 2nd, 2012, 05:38 AM
ok but you're still wrong :lol:

MrProdigy555
Jul 2nd, 2012, 05:44 AM
Read your comment. Read it again.

I hope you realize how immature (and dumb as hell) you come across. :lol:

Dominic
Jul 2nd, 2012, 05:53 AM
Sure Daniel whatever :lol:

Harry.
Jul 2nd, 2012, 05:59 AM
Peak Maria for me would be during the 2008 AO, where she was untouchable really. Peak Venus didn't really last for long (on and off) but she was just frightening to be honest. Venus moved like a gazelle then and the serve was massive. I don't know, it's so tough. I'd give Venus the edge, slightly maybe? I think it's too close to call to be honest. On grass, definitely Venus. On the other surfaces, too close to call.

justineheninfan
Jul 2nd, 2012, 06:34 AM
Peak to peak I think they might have close matches on rebound ace, clay, and carpet/indoors. Venus though would dominate on grass, medium paced hard courts, and fast hard courts. Even if you gave Maria about equal on roughly half the surfaces in this hypothetical matchup (arguably generous to those of who say peak Venus play many times) and Venus the big edge in the other half (pretty obvious for the surfaces I mentioned, even their records speak to that with Venus playing in a much tougher era to boot) that would still give Venus the significant edge overall.

MegaDethly
Jul 2nd, 2012, 11:49 AM
I'm trying to work out if this is a joke? There is not one single correct piece of information in that post. Almost every sentence is false.

If it's a joke/sarcasm, it's not very funny.

He/she is probably being serious; on the first page of this thread, he/she admitted that he/she didn't watch tennis from 2000-2003. Not a crime of course, but it surely means he/she shouldn't be trying to make statemtents on when he thinks Venus' peak was, or in fact anything about tennis.

He needs to know his place.

MegaDethly
Jul 2nd, 2012, 11:52 AM
You may all laugh but Maria is producing tennis at the moment that is much better than Venus at her peak, which as I said was Wimbledon '07. So just think of what Maria at her absolute peak in Australia 2008 would do to Peak Venus. Maria would win with the loss of about 12 or so points 6-0, 6-1. She wouldn't lose a single point of serve.

Please leave my country and never come back.

Galang
Jul 2nd, 2012, 01:35 PM
He/she is probably being serious; on the first page of this thread, he/she admitted that he/she didn't watch tennis from 2000-2003. Not a crime of course, but it surely means he/she shouldn't be trying to make statemtents on when he thinks Venus' peak was, or in fact anything about tennis.

He needs to know his place.

If you think that was Venus' peak, then you are sadly mistaken. If that was Venus' peak, then she was still getting blown off court by Serena. Fluke results in 2000/2001 for the second half of both years because who did she have to compete with? Capriati (aka one of the weakest number ones ever) :rolleyes: ? Seles/Sanchez/Hingis past their primes? Okay, granted she did have some impressive play against the likes of Davenport, however if she would have had to face peak or even middling Sharapova/Henin/Kvitova then Venus would have lost and have 4 slams less. I tell you, her peak was Wimbledon 2007. Now that when she played great tennis :hearts:

AcesHigh
Jul 2nd, 2012, 01:44 PM
In terms of just peak play alone Venus beats everyone of the last 20 years other than Serena and maybe Steffi Graf. Peak Seles might have been better overall, but peak Venus sure as heck would win the H2H between them given the matchup.

Agreed. I think the only difficulty people have is the word "PEAK". Peak is assuming Venus at her best.. that's a very specific level of play that Vee was incapable of maintaining due to severe technical flaws and then, the unexpected mental/emotional block she had against Serena from RG 2002 to USO 2002.

Players like Sharapova were definitely more consistent.. but her highest level of play does not even touch Vee's. The gap in athleticism alone is like the grand canyon.

Mixal
Jul 2nd, 2012, 01:44 PM
If you think that was Venus' peak, then you are sadly mistaken. If that was Venus' peak, then she was still getting blown off court by Serena. Fluke results in 2000/2001 for the second half of both years because who did she have to compete with? Capriati (aka one of the weakest number ones ever) :rolleyes: ? Seles/Sanchez/Hingis past their primes? Okay, granted she did have some impressive play against the likes of Davenport, however if she would have had to face peak or even middling Sharapova/Henin/Kvitova then Venus would have lost and have 4 slams less. I tell you, her peak was Wimbledon 2007. Now that when she played great tennis :hearts:

Clown, do you realize that Venus bageled Peak Pierce TWICE? Your fave could NEVA.

MrProdigy555
Jul 2nd, 2012, 04:21 PM
Venus did not have mental/psychological issues against Serena in 2002...Serena was just a monster.

Olórin
Jul 2nd, 2012, 04:23 PM
Please leave my country and never come back.

Seconded.

If you think that was Venus' peak, then you are sadly mistaken. If that was Venus' peak, then she was still getting blown off court by Serena. Fluke results in 2000/2001 for the second half of both years because who did she have to compete with? Capriati (aka one of the weakest number ones ever) :rolleyes: ? Seles/Sanchez/Hingis past their primes? Okay, granted she did have some impressive play against the likes of Davenport, however if she would have had to face peak or even middling Sharapova/Henin/Kvitova then Venus would have lost and have 4 slams less. I tell you, her peak was Wimbledon 2007. Now that when she played great tennis :hearts:

Get out, you idiot. You know nothing.

Mistress of Evil
Jul 2nd, 2012, 04:25 PM
Out of 10 matches, Maria will win 3.


If you think that was Venus' peak, then you are sadly mistaken. If that was Venus' peak, then she was still getting blown off court by Serena. Fluke results in 2000/2001 for the second half of both years because who did she have to compete with? Capriati (aka one of the weakest number ones ever) :rolleyes: ? Seles/Sanchez/Hingis past their primes? Okay, granted she did have some impressive play against the likes of Davenport, however if she would have had to face peak or even middling Sharapova/Henin/Kvitova then Venus would have lost and have 4 slams less. I tell you, her peak was Wimbledon 2007. Now that when she played great tennis :hearts:

BITCH, GET BANNED ASAP!

Olórin
Jul 2nd, 2012, 04:29 PM
Agreed. I think the only difficulty people have is the word "PEAK". Peak is assuming Venus at her best.. that's a very specific level of play that Vee was incapable of maintaining due to severe technical flaws and then, the unexpected mental/emotional block she had against Serena from RG 2002 to USO 2002.

Players like Sharapova were definitely more consistent.. but her highest level of play does not even touch Vee's. The gap in athleticism alone is like the grand canyon.

I think the gap in athleticism is most of the match up. It's hard for people who didn't watch tennis back then to understand - but Venus' "wheels" as she calls them were arguably the biggest weapon on the WTA - whether she was defending, attacking or doing both in one point. People often talk about Venus' serve because the first serve is record breaking in speed, but the second could sometimes be attackable - in retrospect, I think it was her backhand and movement which were her superweapons.

Galang
Jul 2nd, 2012, 05:03 PM
Out of 10 matches, Maria will win 3.




BITCH, GET BANNED ASAP!

Why? For preaching the truth :rolleyes:

Queen_Vee_92
Jul 3rd, 2012, 10:12 AM
Serve: Close Venus has a slight advantage on first serve but Maria's second serve at her peak was better and more consistent

Forehand: Maria

Backhand: tie

volleys: Venus

Speed: Venus

Mentality: Maria

Venus would probably win on faster surfaces and Maria on slower ones.


The difference in who was better in their groundies is so negligible that IMO the most important stats for this match up are mentality, movement, and serve.

Peak Martha has better mental game than Vee but Venus was hardly a mental midget back in her heyday, Then Venus absolutely bosses Maria and any other lesser thats played in terms of peak movement, and her 00-01 serve was monstrous better than Maria's has ever been really.

I definately think they'd have a close match up on a slow/medium hard court like in Australia, and Maria would probably win more times on clay, but Venus would dominate the fast court h2h, and was generally the more dynamic and explosive player at her peak.

Chance
Jul 3rd, 2012, 11:08 AM
hmm peak Venus.. i have to yet to see that because I personally think Venus never reached her full potential.
2000 Venus vs 2008 AO Sharpy-I would take Venus. Sharpy would be competitive in indoors, AO and clay.

Olórin
Jul 3rd, 2012, 11:22 AM
The difference in who was better in their groundies is so negligible that IMO the most important stats for this match up are mentality, movement, and serve.

Peak Martha has better mental game than Vee but Venus was hardly a mental midget back in her heyday, Then Venus absolutely bosses Maria and any other lesser thats played in terms of peak movement, and her 00-01 serve was monstrous better than Maria's has ever been really.


I would say back in 2000-2001 Venus was at least as much a mental GOAT as Sharapova, if not more. They way she won those close matches against Hingis - going on to win the slam, saving all those matches points in the Miami final, defeating Henin on CLAY, coming from a deficit. When exactly is Maria's peak? Because I don't remember her achieving any such feats - in 2005 one of her best years - she LOST to Serena after having match points, saved match points against Kim but when on to LOSE the match (that was mostly due to superior play - but still, what tales has she to tell of her exploits?) She was impressive when she won Wimbledon to not let the occasion get to her, but numerous players have won Wimbledon in their first final - Lindsay, Serena, Venus, Navratilova, Hingis. Most champions have a great mentality during their winning days, and Venus' was one of the best.

Direwolf
Jul 3rd, 2012, 11:55 AM
Grass Outdoor - Venus
Grass Indoor - Venus
Carpet - Venus
Red Clay - Venus
Green Clay - Venus
Blue Clay - Venus
Indoor Red Clay - Sharapova
Hardcourt Outdoor - Venus
Hardcourt Indoor - Sharapova
Rebound Ace - Sharapova

J4m3ka
Jul 3rd, 2012, 11:56 AM
Peak vs peak I would always pick Venus. Simply because tennis is such an athletic sport and peak Venus is one of the GOAT female athletes, not just in tennis but across sport in general. I'd love to watch Martha doing cartwheels and other flexible moves that Venus used to do in her physical prime :oh:

justineheninfan
Jul 3rd, 2012, 08:16 PM
Peak vs peak I would always pick Venus. Simply because tennis is such an athletic sport and peak Venus is one of the GOAT female athletes, not just in tennis but across sport in general. I'd love to watch Martha doing cartwheels and other flexible moves that Venus used to do in her physical prime :oh:

Anyone who watched Venus play the second half of 2000, many parts of 2001, all of 2002, and early 2003, and would pick peak Sharapova over peak Venus, is either blind or blinded by some fanboy goggles. Sharapova is a bad matchup for even an average Venus though, hence the H2H. She isnt like Serena who is such a nightmare opponent she can just show up and win easily even not playing that well, but her best is still too much for Maria.

pkfan
Jul 3rd, 2012, 08:56 PM
Venus

T-rex
Jul 3rd, 2012, 09:41 PM
Venus easy.

Let's not forget Venus lost several majors because the end of her peak was in the prime Serena years.

Venus at her peak was much more dominate and feared than Sharapova ever is/was.

Stonerpova
Jul 3rd, 2012, 09:41 PM
Come on guys, seriously?

Venus wins on every surface.

Anabelcroft
Jul 3rd, 2012, 09:44 PM
Venus easily...she was rarely seen at her peak,but when she is on... ;)

pkfan
Jul 3rd, 2012, 11:15 PM
Venus easily...she was rarely seen at her peak,but when she is on... ;)

Practically unbeatable at her best on grass

CarrieM
Jul 4th, 2012, 05:08 AM
Venus on grass, Maria on hard court and clay

manojob
Jul 4th, 2012, 09:41 AM
I think Maria Sharapova is good at Clay court while Venus Williams is good at Grass court. In Hard courts both will give quality Fight.