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Vikapower
Dec 29th, 2011, 09:01 PM
This needed to be pointed out by going back into the archives for that specific underrated aspect of Maria's game which in our opinion she does better than her compatriot. Maria has innumerable qualities : kindness, passion, devotion... talents too and in the one she outshines the best, tennis, there's something for which she never gets recognition. Venus, praised as she could have been or can be for that does not reach in our opinion the height or flight of that specific attribute between the bigger ladies.

"She's indeed at her very best a better [...] than Venus Williams" -- This statement is not bold it's more than reality when one ventures him/herself into the periods of Maria's brilliance... her footwork/movement is a fine piece of art but these are not the focus, just her defenses, how, what [...] she does in defensive situations is certainly.

The phrase then completes on it's own with the missing word to become as a whole "Maria at her very best defends better than Akgul Amanmuradova, Ana Ivanovic and [...]". It becomes inappropriate then to justify our claims with illustrations...

Quick extract from the 2007 Ivanovic highlights to illustrate (one of many other matches) (1) :

4:36 - Forehand defense (requires exquisite amount of touch, quick hands/reactions, no/little time), cross-court backhand defense flick to get the angle (good left hand, balance moving backwards) and sprint forward to the dropper (how easy she gets there, could have even nagged the opponent).

7:00 - Again, forehand defense, anticipates too fast quick readjustments for the inside-out backhand, measured forehand lob.

7:25 - Back-hand pass #1 and #2, superb dropper [Opponent], anticipates good (could have only been another dropper) and wrong (not in the forehand side) readjusts dynamically to get to the back-hand, great lucidity and measures the lob.

8:47 - How she reads the game early and great improvisation, probably resumes all the above.

It then becomes convinient to establish Maria as one of the greatest thus most complete player to have ever played the WTA game. :)

(1)

zEgQTdjQOLI

Brad[le]y.
Dec 29th, 2011, 09:23 PM
:worship: :worship: :worship:

GoofyDuck
Dec 29th, 2011, 09:24 PM
Maria at her very best [is not better] than Vee

PLP
Dec 29th, 2011, 09:33 PM
Maria at her very best [is not better] than Vee

:lol:

Yes, I love Maria, but at their very best I think Venus would win 2 out of 3 times, which is really a complement for Sharapova. They are both scary good at their very best but Venus has just a bit more to offer.

slydevil6142
Dec 29th, 2011, 09:40 PM
LOL ok...... Im sure Maria doesnt even believe this nonsense. Venus post 03' has been able to take care of Maria on the big stage. Maria can hardly content with Venus 2.0 lets not get started on the demolotion job she would have given in healthier times.Im sure your response will be filled with all kinds of silly and ridiculous arguments but Ill rest easy knowing that inside you know Im right contrary to what you may post :)

bandabou
Dec 29th, 2011, 09:44 PM
Venus pre '03 totally dusts off Masha. People just forget how great Vee was pre ab-injury.

Sean.
Dec 29th, 2011, 09:48 PM
Maria's defence & footwork pre-06 was underrated, but nowadays it's poor to say the least. However, never in her career has she been a better defender than Venus. Period.

hankqq
Dec 29th, 2011, 09:50 PM
http://oi41.tinypic.com/2hnx7yp.jpg

Critique
Dec 29th, 2011, 09:53 PM
Peak Maria does nothing better than peak Venus, this thread is borderline insulting.

Stonerpova
Dec 29th, 2011, 09:54 PM
I'd like to think Peak Maria would win a close three setter, but I'm delusional.

Stamp Paid
Dec 29th, 2011, 09:56 PM
Lmao

Vespertine69
Dec 29th, 2011, 10:06 PM
I think peak Sharapova could take a set off of peak Venus, because I think at their very best Sharapova has a little more belief (not that Venus lacks it) and could snatch a few crunch points in at least one set. However, I think Venus at her very best is just such an imperious hitter and insane mover that even Sharapova at her accurate, flat best would not be able to beat her.

Moveyourfeet
Dec 29th, 2011, 10:08 PM
How are Venus and Maria compatriots?

Miss Atomic Bomb
Dec 29th, 2011, 10:15 PM
Even though this is a joke thread, and everyone knows venus wins at their peaks,I would like to mention that the one thing Sharapova does better than Venus is return serve (especially given how mediocre Venus's FH return was).

Veesus
Dec 29th, 2011, 10:15 PM
Maria <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Venus :o

Please don't diss the Queen.

atominside
Dec 29th, 2011, 10:18 PM
no :facepalm: venus would win 7 times out of 10.

ZODIAC
Dec 29th, 2011, 10:27 PM
Maria hasnt beaten Venus in a long time....Queen Vee has beaten pova on the greens of Wimbledon countless times.

Slutiana
Dec 29th, 2011, 10:38 PM
:lol::lol::lol:

I'm not even going justify this thread with a direct reply. But in general, as someone else said here, I think people forget just how good Venus was at her best. I remember there was a time on TF when many people believed Venus' best to be better than even Serena's. :lol:

Peak Maria does nothing better than peak Venus, this thread is borderline insulting.
I love Maria, but it's not even 'borderline insulting'.

Even though this is a joke thread, and everyone knows venus wins at their peaks,I would like to mention that the one thing Sharapova does better than Venus is return serve (especially given how mediocre Venus's FH return was).
I agree. Though Maria was never a particularly great returner either. Not until she had no choice but to return better as her serve (and shoulder) began to fall apart.

The Dawntreader
Dec 29th, 2011, 10:47 PM
Venus was a great returner at her peak though. She was one of the few players who actively sought to attack Serena's second serve, alongside Davenport.

Pova is just not the ball-striker and athlete Venus is at her best. I don't think it's insulting at all to clarify that.

dsanders06
Dec 29th, 2011, 11:03 PM
Peak Maria would win on slow hardcourts :wavey:

And yes, I AM being serious :lol: And possibly on clay too. Peak Maria would've undoubtedly held up longer in long rallies between the two on slow surfaces. Grass would be Venus obviously, and quick hardcourts too if we're talking about Venus 2000-03.

atominside
Dec 29th, 2011, 11:05 PM
Peak Maria would win on slow hardcourts :wavey:

And yes, I AM being serious :lol: And possibly on clay too. Peak Maria would've undoubtedly held up longer in long rallies between the two on slow surfaces. Grass would be Venus obviously, and probably quick hardcourts too if we're talking about Venus at her very best.

:facepalm: no.

madmax
Dec 29th, 2011, 11:07 PM
Venus was a great returner at her peak though. She was one of the few players who actively sought to attack Serena's second serve, alongside Davenport.

Pova is just not the ball-striker and athlete Venus is at her best. I don't think it's insulting at all to clarify that.

Maria has a cleaner and more precise groundies at her best.

The Dawntreader
Dec 29th, 2011, 11:10 PM
Maria has a cleaner and more precise groundies at her best.

Not more destructive though. Venus could overpower opponents within 2-3 strikes.

dsanders06
Dec 29th, 2011, 11:23 PM
Not more destructive though. Venus could overpower opponents within 2-3 strikes.

Which is why she would've won on quick surfaces, but on slow surfaces, where 2-3 strikes wouldn't be enough to kill off the point, Maria would've had the edge. Maria at the AO08 managed to win the majority of the long rallies in her match against Justine ... Venus at her best simply never managed a performance of that calibre on a slow surface against a great defender. E.g. Miami 2001 final, Capriati won the vast majority of long rallies.

The Dawntreader
Dec 29th, 2011, 11:35 PM
Which is why she would've won on quick surfaces, but on slow surfaces, where 2-3 strikes wouldn't be enough to kill off the point, Maria would've had the edge. Maria at the AO08 managed to win the majority of the long rallies in her match against Justine ... Venus at her best simply never managed a performance of that calibre on a slow surface against a great defender. E.g. Miami 2001 final, Capriati won the vast majority of long rallies.

That AO 2008 performance is one of the most overrated matches i've ever come across. Especially if you think Justine was playing well.

Anyway i digress, Venus at her peak would be beating Pova on any surface.

Apoleb
Dec 29th, 2011, 11:40 PM
Venus does have a defensive plan B, and it kept her alive many a times against big hitters when she didn't have her range.

Remember the Sharapova golden rule: get the big first strike on the first or second stroke, and she's toast. And it applies on any surface. Venus has all the tools to implement it.

dsanders06
Dec 29th, 2011, 11:54 PM
That AO 2008 performance is one of the most overrated matches i've ever come across. Especially if you think Justine was playing well.

Anyway i digress, Venus at her peak would be beating Pova on any surface.

Playing well or not, to my knowledge Venus has NEVER won the majority of long rallies in a match against one of the best defenders on a slow surface (no matter what their form).

Venus does have a defensive plan B, and it kept her alive many a times against big hitters when she didn't have her range.

I still think this is a total myth :lol: Off of grass, there's virtually no matches where Venus has beaten a decent opponent through a defensive gameplan in her entire career. She's an explosive mover to be sure, but she's always had far too little tactical nous to ever put it to good use (just like James Blake, one of the best athletes to ever play men's tennis but for whom defence was regarded as a major weakness). Just like Maria, Venus has pretty much ALWAYS either won or lost her matches on the strength or weakness of her first strike (Wimbledon aside, where she actually is a good defensive player).

Apoleb
Dec 29th, 2011, 11:55 PM
Re: And I definitely don't think Sharapova's ball striking is superior to Venus. Contrary to popular opinion, Sharapova isn't a good improviser and she lacks the touch of Davenport or the reactions of the WS to deal with missiles on the backfoot coming her way, be it on the first serve or on ground strokes, which is why the first strike is so important against her. She likes to have just that bit of time and rhythm to set up her shots, and what allowed her to play the consistent heavy flat hitting in her heydays was her ridiculous footwork, always managing to get in position to hit that one more deep flat groundy, and once the opponent gets trapped in that sequence, it's hard to come out of it and switch the offensive to his/her side. But she never possessed a true killer shot like the WS/Justine did at their best, or their reactions for that matter.

Break My Rapture
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:03 AM
Venus does have a defensive plan B, and it kept her alive many a times against big hitters when she didn't have her range.

Remember the Sharapova golden rule: get the big first strike on the first or second stroke, and she's toast. And it applies on any surface. Venus has all the tools to implement it.
I agree with this.

madmax
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:08 AM
Re: And I definitely don't think Sharapova's ball striking is superior to Venus. Contrary to popular opinion, Sharapova isn't a good improviser and she lacks the touch of Davenport or the reactions of the WS to deal with missiles on the backfoot coming her way, be it on the first serve or on ground strokes, which is why the first strike is so important against her. She likes to have just that bit of time and rhythm to set up her shots, and what allowed her to play the consistent heavy flat hitting in her heydays was her ridiculous footwork, always managing to get in position to hit that one more deep flat groundy, and once the opponent gets trapped in that sequence, it's hard to come out of it and switch the offensive to his/her side. But she never possessed a true killer shot like the WS/Justine did at their best, or their reactions for that matter.

oh, so now we are acting like Maria is some taller version of Azarenka here?:lol: She didn't possess a killer shot in her PEAK? Are you sure you watched her matches with your eyes open and mind cleared up?

Pump-it-UP
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:11 AM
LMFAO :hysteric:

The Dawntreader
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:15 AM
Playing well or not, to my knowledge Venus has NEVER won the majority of long rallies in a match against one of the best defenders on a slow surface (no matter what their form).



.

AO 2003 SF. Miami 98 SF, Miami 99 SF, YEC 2008 and 2009 SF. I'm pretty sure you'd find evidence of Venus winning long rallies in any of those matches, and many more besides.

Not that you would ever take note of course:lol:

Dominic
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:16 AM
But she never possessed a true killer shot like the WS/Justine did at their best, or their reactions for that matter.

Maria possesses nothing but kill shots. And Venus' forehand in her heyday was not as good as peak Maria's, nowadays, both Maria's grooundies are better (on a decent day)

thrust
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:17 AM
Maria at her very best [is not better] than Vee

TRUE!

Smitten
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:18 AM
I don't know why it needs to be proven or not if Venus can rally.

Point is if Venus is rallying or playing a series of long rallies then something is wrong. Even against the defensive players she struggles with, when she beats them it's when she is able to end the points relatively quickly either by strokes or volleys.

Venus should never be rallying for long anyway.

The Dawntreader
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:19 AM
I don't know why it needs to be proven or not if Venus can rally.

Point is if Venus is rallying or playing a series of long rallies then something is wrong. Even against the defensive players she struggles with, when she beats them it's when she is able to end the points relatively quickly either by strokes or volleys.

Venus should never be rallying for long anyway.

No aggressive baseliner should. Especially when they don't need to.

Apoleb
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:25 AM
I don't know why it needs to be proven or not if Venus can rally.

Point is if Venus is rallying or playing a series of long rallies then something is wrong. Even against the defensive players she struggles with, when she beats them it's when she is able to end the points relatively quickly either by strokes or volleys.

Venus should never be rallying for long anyway.

That's why it is a plan B, and it allows her to hang in the rallies against the big hitters when she's making too many mistakes.

Actually I'll just take Venus in 1999 when she didn't have the power she'd have later. She was a formidable defender, and could turn defense into attack in a heart beat.

sammy01
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:25 AM
No aggressive baseliner should. Especially when they don't need to.

or cant :angel:

Smitten
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:25 AM
No aggressive baseliner should. Especially when they don't need to.

In terms of this direct matchup I think Venus rallies just fine against flat, metronome type hitting like Sharapova/Dementieva.

Their Wimbledon 2007 meeting had some lengthier exchanges(for grass) and Venus ate her alive.

Apoleb
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:29 AM
In terms of this direct matchup I think Venus rallies just fine against flat, metronome type hitting like Sharapova/Dementieva.

Their Wimbledon 2007 meeting had some lengthier exchanges(for grass) and Venus ate her alive.

This too. Not only she has the power to outhit her from the first strike, but the athleticism to hang in with her flat hitting.

So now we can just close this thread.

BuTtErFrEnA
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:29 AM
http://i.imgur.com/CVMPK.gif

madmax
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:31 AM
funny how a player who ate the other alive has a 3-3 career record against her and the only win on hardcourts came at ultrafast Stanford, when Pova was at her all time low in confidence and game ability. But this is TF, so logic should be thrown out of the window altogether:cheer:

Smitten
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:49 AM
So now we can just close this thread.

Do you want to discuss Cornet's return to her CHR of #11?

Leo St
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:51 AM
sharapova fans shouldnt be ofended with her being worse than venus, both legends, but just not in the same league

same as venus fans wouldnt be ofended if someone stated that she is worse than graf

brickhousesupporter
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:52 AM
There is only one way to solve this.....Venus vs Sharapova 1st Rd 2012 Aus Open.

sammy01
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:57 AM
This too. Not only she has the power to outhit her from the first strike, but the athleticism to hang in with her flat hitting.

So now we can just close this thread.

this basically, venus isn't bothered by rallies with flat hitters it just feeds her game even if the rallies go on. she just isn't very adaptable when it comes to players who will rally different heights to her, slice defense or angles off her DTL shots.

i hate to say it but i think if venus played caro now caro may very well win. just struggle to see venus dealing with caro's unintentional junk for 3 sets nowadays. yep she hammered caro when caro was slight and young, but the caro of today is stronger (not on her shots but her ability to soak up pace and not let it force her to lose control) and caro's fitness and effort are much better now.

Apoleb
Dec 30th, 2011, 01:02 AM
this basically, venus isn't bothered by rallies with flat hitters it just feeds her game even if the rallies go on. she just isn't very adaptable when it comes to players who will rally different heights to her, slice defense or angles off her DTL shots.

i hate to say it but i think if venus played caro now caro may very well win. just struggle to see venus dealing with caro's unintentional junk for 3 sets nowadays. yep she hammered caro when caro was slight and young, but the caro of today is stronger (not on her shots but her ability to soak up pace and not let it force her to lose control) and caro's fitness and effort are much better now.

Nowadays anyone can beat Venus, so probably this isn't an appropriate measure. But I think she would have handled her very easily 2/3 years ago regardless of Caro's form. She hits too big for her, and she would kill her moonballs at the net. People forget that while Caro is a very good athlete for today's standards, she isn't even on the caliber of Jelena Jankovic.

The Dawntreader
Dec 30th, 2011, 01:05 AM
Nowadays anyone can beat Venus, so probably this isn't an appropriate measure. But I think she would have handled her very easily 2/3 years ago regardless of Caro's form. She hits too big for her, and she would kill her moonballs on the net.

Venus deals with mid-court balls as well as anyone, and would've had no problem with those innocuous forehands that plop around the service line.

Of course Venus would struggle these days, but that's due to a physical decline more than anything. She'd still beat her on any quick surface probably however.

sammy01
Dec 30th, 2011, 01:06 AM
Nowadays anyone can beat Venus, so probably this isn't an appropriate measure. But I think she would have handled her very easily 2/3 years ago regardless of Caro's form. She hits too big for her, and she would kill her moonballs at the net.

yeah but i fear the venus will are likely to see again will not even be the venus of 2/3 years ago. sad really :sad:

Smitten
Dec 30th, 2011, 01:06 AM
Borz's FH would drop too short against that hitting like Peer.

Plus, Borz can't put any sort of pressure on return.

dsanders06
Dec 30th, 2011, 01:41 AM
AO 2003 SF. Miami 98 SF, Miami 99 SF, YEC 2008 and 2009 SF. I'm pretty sure you'd find evidence of Venus winning long rallies in any of those matches, and many more besides.

Not that you would ever take note of course:lol:

Did she win the majority of long rallies in any of those matches? She certainly didn't in her match against Jankovic at the YEC in 2009, nor as far as I can remember in any of her matches at the YEC in 2008 (except maybe in her match against Serena, who was playing woefully at that tournament)... indeed, in her match against Zvonareva (a good but hardly spectacular defensive player) at that tournament, Venus was on the losing end of most long rallies in the first set, and it was only when she got her serve and first strike clicking thereafter that she turned it around. I don't know enough about any of the other matches you mentioned.

In terms of this direct matchup I think Venus rallies just fine against flat, metronome type hitting like Sharapova/Dementieva.

Their Wimbledon 2007 meeting had some lengthier exchanges(for grass) and Venus ate her alive.

I agree that, for whatever reason, Venus is a much more effective defensive player on grass, but on other surfaces I really don't see that there's much evidence that she can comfortably survive long rallies against flat hitters - after all, she lost both her matches against Maria on slow hardcourts, when admittedly she wasn't at her peak (though neither was Maria), and indeed the only non-Wimbledon win she ever got over her was one of the quickest hardcourts there is. Also, looking at Venus's H2H against Dementieva, Elena's only two wins over her came on slow hardcourts, and indeed if you look at their 4 matches played in 2008-09, Venus thrashed her in the two on quick surfaces whereas the two on the slow Doha courts were tight 3-setters (Venus winning one, Elena winning one). Ivanovic's only match against Venus on slow HCs was the only one Ana ever won, one of Seles's only wins against her was in Australia ... there's definitely a body of evidence that players who Venus matches up well with on quick surfaces, she struggles with mightily on slow hardcourts. I just think Maria's groundstrokes would've held up a lot better in prolonged rallies at their respective peaks (again, consider Maria outlasting Justine vs Venus in her very prime losing to Hingis and Seles at the Australian Open), which on a mid-paced/slow hardcourt would've been one of the most important factors.

In theory, the same would apply to clay going strictly on ground game, but the fact Maria's movement and footwork is so much worse on clay compared to hardcourts (Venus's is too, but not to such a great extent) makes that murkier.

Leo St
Dec 30th, 2011, 01:49 AM
ok dsanders we get it, you dont like venus.. go watch clijsters highlights, she has many good ones, stop tormenting us with your lame arguments

dsanders06
Dec 30th, 2011, 01:50 AM
ok dsanders we get it, you dont like venus.. go watch clijsters highlights, she has many good ones, stop tormenting us with your lame arguments

She does indeed, I just finished watching highlights of her 2010 US Open semifinal infact :)

it-girl
Dec 30th, 2011, 02:12 AM
Venus at her best is a superior athlete 2nd to none. Her serve is killer, her big booming ground strokes will either hit the winner quickly, back her opponent up, force them to hit a weak reply or blast them off the court leaving her an open court to work with. Then her attacking game is scary good, she will win many points at the net whether it is from the winning volley or the opponent worried about her at the net. At her best Venus knows she is that good so her mental strength will be a fortress.

There is nothing listed above that Maria does better at her best better than Venus. Some of the above mentioned Maria does not even posses. Maria is a good player but comparing her to Venus only makes her look inferior.

madmax
Dec 30th, 2011, 02:23 AM
man oh man, judging from these descriptions you would think Venus was compared to some obscure scrub, not another multislam winner. Amazing what perception and agenda does to some people...

Aaron.
Dec 30th, 2011, 02:25 AM
Which is why she would've won on quick surfaces, but on slow surfaces, where 2-3 strikes wouldn't be enough to kill off the point, Maria would've had the edge. Maria at the AO08 managed to win the majority of the long rallies in her match against Justine ... Venus at her best simply never managed a performance of that calibre on a slow surface against a great defender. E.g. Miami 2001 final, Capriati won the vast majority of long rallies. Yeah because Maria thrives on long rallies :tape: and 2-3 strikes is enough to win the point against Sharapova on any surface. She's just that slow.

dsanders06
Dec 30th, 2011, 02:39 AM
Yeah because Maria thrives on long rallies :tape: and 2-3 strikes is enough to win the point against Sharapova on any surface. She's just that slow.

:facepalm: Do you ever watch any tennis that doesn't involve a Williams sister? :lol: Just so you know, being the best defensive player =/= being the best in long rallies. Seles in her day would usually take a lot longer to win rallies than the ballbashers of today, even though her movement was among the weakest of any multi-Slam champions in history... in 2002, when she was at her fattest/slowest, she still won most of the long rallies against shape-of-her life Venus at the AO. While long rallies were never exactly Maria's speciality, I'm sorry but it's simply fact that Maria in her prime was better in long rallies than Venus :lol: Reliability/soundness of technique, consistency in ballstriking and mental toughness are important components in being good in long rallies, it's not just about movement.

Noctis
Dec 30th, 2011, 02:46 AM
Masha I think she hits the ball so slow these days, its not quick firing like it use to be

Chakvenus
Dec 30th, 2011, 02:51 AM
But what I don't understand is this: Why in the HELL would a Peak Maria-Peak Venus match be loaded with long rallies? Regardless of the surface, it's not what either girl is shooting for - they're both looking to take charge and end the point asap. Is Maria's technique better than Venus'? Sure, I don't see any reason to deny that, but the point is, long rallies wouldn't be making up anywhere NEAR a majority in their matches for such greater technique to truly be an issue. Though I doubt it's what you truly believe, to an extent you seem to be arguing that Maria is a quality defender/mover, which I'm sorry, but she is not. Venus moves better than her on any surface if just for the fact that she's a better athlete.

TheDream
Dec 30th, 2011, 02:52 AM
She does indeed, I just finished watching highlights of her 2010 US Open semifinal infact :)

I just watches those highlights too. Pretty sad that a player with an undisagnosed disease, who hadn't played in months because of injury, was just points away from defeating the defending champion who was healthy all summer. Just imagine if Venus was completely healthy in that match. :eek:

TheDream
Dec 30th, 2011, 02:59 AM
:facepalm: Do you ever watch any tennis that doesn't involve a Williams sister? :lol: Just so you know, being the best defensive player =/= being the best in long rallies. Seles in her day would usually take a lot longer to win rallies than the ballbashers of today, even though her movement was among the weakest of any multi-Slam champions in history... in 2002, when she was at her fattest/slowest, she still won most of the long rallies against shape-of-her life Venus at the AO. While long rallies were never exactly Maria's speciality, I'm sorry but it's simply fact that Maria in her prime was better in long rallies than Venus :lol: Reliability/soundness of technique, consistency in ballstriking and mental toughness are important components in being good in long rallies, it's not just about movement.

What?! Did you even see that match? Pam Shriver even mentioned how Seles needed to keep the points as short as possible because of her age and fitness. She said this after Venus had won the 1st set and won most of the long points including the set point. Pam Shriver and Mary Jo Fernandez even said they weren't sure if Seles could won two back to back sets and she needed to keep the points short and she did for the most part. Venus 2nd serve got picked apart and she was nursing that knee injury that kept her out for awhile afterwards. I have seen that match tons of times and the longer the point went on, the better Venus chances EVEN with an injury.

Vikapower
Dec 30th, 2011, 03:05 AM
Though I doubt it's what you truly believe, to an extent you seem to be arguing that Maria is a quality defender/mover, which I'm sorry, but she is not. Venus moves better than her on any surface if just for the fact that she's a better athlete.

You certainly do not ignore that there's moving the ball that's one but doing something effective out of it in difficulty... in that sense it's pretty much unarguable that Maria at her best does a more effective job from impossible positions than Venus does.

There is nothing listed above that Maria does better at her best better than Venus. Some of the above mentioned Maria does not even posses. Maria is a good player but comparing her to Venus only makes her look inferior.

Venus is very athletic but allow to doubt on her vision of the game thus poor execution... most of the times she's clueless, extremely clueless... her defenses which only appears on grass are ineffective, hard flat and most of the times out.

Maria and I thought this video showed it well, displays at her best in the defensive area, a vast palette of shots but also skills (anticipation, awareness, touch...) that Venus can only dream about.

Their Wimbledon 2007 meeting had some lengthier exchanges(for grass) and Venus ate her alive.

[...] schooling Maria on a very minor surface like grass (basically 2 matches) indicates nothing than that Venus is/was a better grass court player than her rivals... the same regards for Nadal on clay. :unsure:

60% or more of the tour is hard, in that aspect Maria is 3-1... and had only lost one set up until that Stanford 2009 -- "Lengthier rallies" -- I wish I could see the objective numbers/data or something --

[...] considering that whichever the the length [rallies], as long as they're on grass, characteristics pertaining to the surface are always in favor or Williams (low bounce...).

These same rallies on clay... and plexicushion, her last 7 years speak for themselves.

Leo St
Dec 30th, 2011, 03:47 AM
yeah vikapower this video really shows us everything.. the first point is maria trying to hit an easy putaway volley and losing the point haha

Stonerpova
Dec 30th, 2011, 04:16 AM
Maria hasnt beaten Venus in a long time....Queen Vee has beaten pova on the greens of Wimbledon countless times.

Twice?

it-girl
Dec 30th, 2011, 04:26 AM
You certainly do not ignore that there's moving the ball that's one but doing something effective out of it in difficulty... in that sense it's pretty much unarguable that Maria at her best does a more effective job from impossible positions than Venus does.

When it becomes known that the best possible way to win against players like Venus is to hit down the center of the court, I think that pretty much tells you who is good at hitting shots from impossible positions. We have seen Venus hit and get many balls back into play that others would only dream about, including Maria. I've never heard anyone say to hit the ball down the center for Maria. Why? Because they like to move Maria, because she is not known for her speed at all.



Venus is very athletic but allow to doubt on her vision of the game thus poor execution... most of the times she's clueless, extremely clueless... her defenses which only appears on grass are ineffective, hard flat and most of the times out.

Maria and I thought this video showed it well, displays at her best in the defensive area, a vast palette of shots but also skills (anticipation, awareness, touch...) that Venus can only dream about.

You said if the players are at their best. If they are at their best then Venus will not have any issues that you are suggesting. Venus at her best will be far from clueless and we have seen her at her best and the results that come from it. There is no away around the fact that Venus Williams is lethal to any player on tour at her best. Her best is scary good, I am talking jaw dropping scary good.



[...] schooling Maria on a very minor surface like grass (basically 2 matches) indicates nothing than that Venus is/was a better grass court player than her rivals... the same regards for Nadal on clay. :unsure:

60% or more of the tour is hard, in that aspect Maria is 3-1... and had only lost one set up until that Stanford 2009 -- "Lengthier rallies" -- I wish I could see the objective numbers/data or something -- This time I think you need to take it from Maria's mouth. Maria said after the Wimbledon 05 match that it was a different Venus Williams that she played then, than she had played before. Meaning that if Venus played like she did in that match there is no reason to believe that Venus could not have won those matches also. Besides that fact, you said at their best and at their best Venus is the better player, plain and simple.

[...] considering that whichever the the length [rallies], as long as they're on grass, characteristics pertaining to the surface are always in favor or Williams (low bounce...).

These same rallies on clay... and plexicushion, her last 7 years speak for themselves.Again at their best there is no reason why Venus could not beat Maria here also. Venus does something that a lot of players have trouble doing sometimes when they play Maria. Venus reduces Maria's winner count, while she continues to add winners to the bank. So at their best I still would pick Venus, even on this surface.

Yorker
Dec 30th, 2011, 04:42 AM
Venus at her best does everything better than Maria outside of second serve and return, her peak movement and athleticism is probably the best out of anyone on tour today outside of Serena. This thread is seriously laughable, Venus might not be anywhere near what she was but if their both at their best I would have Venus winning 7 or 8 out of 10 between the two.

L'Enfant Sauvage
Dec 30th, 2011, 05:02 AM
funny how a player who ate the other alive has a 3-3 career record against her and the only win on hardcourts came at ultrafast Stanford, when Pova was at her all time low in confidence and game ability. But this is TF, so logic should be thrown out of the window altogether:cheer:

Of course they are going to be more even when you're comparing Venus after 2003 to Maria from 04-on. Ie: Maria's peak years, not Venus'. I'm sorry, but put Maria in any kind of form against Venus from 00-03, and you wind up with a lopsided H2H, like Venus - Justine. Hell, look at what meeting Venus several times from 05-on has done for Clijsters' record against her :shrug:

i hate to say it but i think if venus played caro now caro may very well win. just struggle to see venus dealing with caro's unintentional junk for 3 sets nowadays. yep she hammered caro when caro was slight and young, but the caro of today is stronger (not on her shots but her ability to soak up pace and not let it force her to lose control) and caro's fitness and effort are much better now.

That goes without saying, but considering Venus is ranked in the 100s and currently playing like it, with a debilitating illness to boot, it isn't saying much. In truth, she really should have retired in 2009, maybe 2010, but like someone else said, Venus of 2008 would smoke any form of Wozniacki.

Did she win the majority of long rallies in any of those matches? She certainly didn't in her match against Jankovic at the YEC in 2009, nor as far as I can remember in any of her matches at the YEC in 2008 (except maybe in her match against Serena, who was playing woefully at that tournament)... indeed, in her match against Zvonareva (a good but hardly spectacular defensive player) at that tournament, Venus was on the losing end of most long rallies in the first set, and it was only when she got her serve and first strike clicking thereafter that she turned it around. I don't know enough about any of the other matches you mentioned.

The thing I don't get is, why do you presume that winning long rallies is going to be a key factor in the meetings? Maria possibly faring better against defensive players has nothing to do with her matchup against an offensive baseliner who likes to pound the ball for one or two strikes and then finish points at the net. Maria is not Jankovic or Zvonareva, and placing her and Venus on slow hard/clay isn't going to make her into them. It seems like you have this idea that if they play on clay whoever can counterpunch the best would win, when in reality powerful, first strike tennis DOES exist(and win) on slow surfaces:
U0ieXFxT_T0
NdXt9PxllxE
47nX_5xGFm0
JZfwFwuTiEo
Hyhu4wuv6Zc
lZY9qXDPC20
^ Don't look too much into these match choices, these are just a handful of matches on slow surfaces where the player who hit the hardest and took charge of the rally quickest won :shrug:

Maria and I thought this video showed it well, displays at her best in the defensive area, a vast palette of shots but also skills (anticipation, awareness, touch...) that Venus can only dream about.

Miss Vikapower never ceases to amaze :hearts:

L'Enfant Sauvage
Dec 30th, 2011, 05:06 AM
But seriously though, I don't see the point of this thread. If you're a real Maria fan why would you start a thread that's only inevitably going to start flame wars involving her? Oh right it's Vikapower, to whom logic doesn't apply :facepalm:

Paneru
Dec 30th, 2011, 05:14 AM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lesuj78sVO1qbq6duo1_250.gif

ElusiveChanteuse
Dec 30th, 2011, 05:25 AM
What's even Maria's longest winning streak? At her younger days, she could only manage to win like a slam every 2 years.:tape:

Pops Maellard
Dec 30th, 2011, 05:44 AM
I love Maria but I'm not delusional. Peak Venus > Peak Maria.

thegreendestiny
Dec 30th, 2011, 05:54 AM
Maria's BH may not be as consistently lethal but it is miles aesthetically appealing than Venus's open-stance chicken wing BH.

Mistress of Evil
Dec 30th, 2011, 06:33 AM
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lj7u5eCvrk1qafrh6.gif

Anyway, Martha is just not on the same level and not only strokes wise but also she does not even come close to being the athlete Venus is/was.

Stamp Paid
Dec 30th, 2011, 06:38 AM
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lj7u5eCvrk1qafrh6.gif

Anyway, Martha is just not on the same level and not only strokes wise but also she does not even come close to being the athlete Venus is/was.
Fake fan. :lol:

Mistress of Evil
Dec 30th, 2011, 06:54 AM
Fake fan. :lol:

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lwxnzag0VL1r7b9fxo1_500.gif

Ooh, if I just wasn't a lady, WHAT wouldn't I tell that varmint(a.k.a. you).

bandabou
Dec 30th, 2011, 07:53 AM
:facepalm: Masha-fans! :lol: So deluded..don't they know by now that BOTH WS are simply in another class?!
Yet they insist in picking fights they have NO hope of winning and then they wanna come cry about those bad WS-fans?! :lol:

Masha is good, a great in her own right...but please stop delusion. Girl can't even beat Wozniacki and you wanna say she's better than Vee at her best?! :spit:

claypova
Dec 30th, 2011, 08:15 AM
:facepalm: Masha-fans! :lol: So deluded..don't they know by now that BOTH WS are simply in another class?!
Yet they insist in picking fights they have NO hope of winning and then they wanna come cry about those bad WS-fans?! :lol:

Masha is good, a great in her own right...but please stop delusion. Girl can't even beat Wozniacki and you wanna say she's better than Vee at her best?! :spit:

some masha-fans :tears:

(it's mashafierce we're talking about, not the poova that got trumped by wozniacki) :zzz:

JamieOwen3
Dec 30th, 2011, 08:17 AM
We all know i LOVE Maria, even the sweat off her fine ass. But no! Venus at her best was such a fierce striker of the ball and super fast mover that i don't see how Masha could be better :shrug: I love both bitchez though 4 life :p

And Maria won the last match she played against Woz ;)

borrowedheaven
Dec 30th, 2011, 08:31 AM
I think Maria's rallying capabilities are a bit underrated here. But in a sport like tennis I always favor the better athlete, and that's Venus by far.

What does get on my nervs is that every H2H with Venus after '03 doesn't seem to count over here. I agree that Venus' form went downhill, but every player has their good years and their bad years. That doesn't make any H2H invalid, IMO.

bandabou
Dec 30th, 2011, 09:05 AM
I think Maria's rallying capabilities are a bit underrated here. But in a sport like tennis I always favor the better athlete, and that's Venus by far.

What does get on my nervs is that every H2H with Venus after '03 doesn't seem to count over here. I agree that Venus' form went downhill, but every player has their good years and their bad years. That doesn't make any H2H invalid, IMO.

Good point..but if we go by that logic. Masha fans are the first ones to dismiss the WHOLE period after Masha's 08 oz open win and this year's RG, because this wasn't real Masha..was slump Masha, this and that.
Then it's only logical that people make distinction between pre' 03 Vee and after '03 Vee. 'Cause the gap between the two Vees is even greater.

Soo..:shrug:

borrowedheaven
Dec 30th, 2011, 09:21 AM
Good point..but if we go by that logic. Masha fans are the first ones to dismiss the WHOLE period after Masha's 08 oz open win and this year's RG, because this wasn't real Masha..was slump Masha, this and that.
Then it's only logical that people make distinction between pre' 03 Vee and after '03 Vee. 'Cause the gap between the two Vees is even greater.

Soo..:shrug:

I'm not only talking about Maria vs Venus, just the H2H of Venus as a whole. I agree that some Maria fans do the same thing. It's like if I'd say the H2H of Kim with Maria and Mauresmo shouldn't be that close, because many of those matches were played in '06, a bad year of Kim.
I think it's wrong to erase years and matches just because your fave didn't play well.

bandabou
Dec 30th, 2011, 10:05 AM
I'm not only talking about Maria vs Venus, just the H2H of Venus as a whole. I agree that some Maria fans do the same thing. It's like if I'd say the H2H of Kim with Maria and Mauresmo shouldn't be that close, because many of those matches were played in '06, a bad year of Kim.
I think it's wrong to erase years and matches just because your fave didn't play well.

Exactly...

madmax
Dec 30th, 2011, 10:13 AM
Good point..but if we go by that logic. Masha fans are the first ones to dismiss the WHOLE period after Masha's 08 oz open win and this year's RG, because this wasn't real Masha..was slump Masha, this and that.
Then it's only logical that people make distinction between pre' 03 Vee and after '03 Vee. 'Cause the gap between the two Vees is even greater.

Soo..:shrug:

how about you stop stirring shit and stick to your own fave, intead of pretending to know what us Masha fans say or think? You are the biggest BS talker on this board by FAR - constantly twisting and imagining things in that paranoid head of yours. Get over yourself and your obsession with Maria

madmax
Dec 30th, 2011, 10:17 AM
Of course they are going to be more even when you're comparing Venus after 2003 to Maria from 04-on. Ie: Maria's peak years, not Venus'. I'm sorry, but put Maria in any kind of form against Venus from 00-03, and you wind up with a lopsided H2H, like Venus - Justine. Hell, look at what meeting Venus several times from 05-on has done for Clijsters' record against her :shrug:



oh I see...so in other words some fans of the players are allowed to pick and choose which matches of their faves count and which ones don't. In that case Venus didn't even face peak Maria ONCE, so all the REAL life evidence that we had from their meetings can be thrown out of the window. Cute:kiss:

L'Enfant Sauvage
Dec 30th, 2011, 10:28 AM
oh I see...so in other words some fans of the players are allowed to pick and choose which matches of their faves count and which ones don't. In that case Venus didn't even face peak Maria ONCE, so all the REAL life evidence that we had from their meetings can be thrown out of the window. Cute:kiss:

First off, no one said those matches didn't count, you'd know that if you quit jumping the gun in your responses. Second, you're one to talk considering the fact that you yourself were trying to do that in the post I quoted in the first place:

funny how a player who ate the other alive has a 3-3 career record against her and the only win on hardcourts came at ultrafast Stanford, when Pova was at her all time low in confidence and game ability. But this is TF, so logic should be thrown out of the window altogether:cheer:

:kiss:

madmax
Dec 30th, 2011, 10:40 AM
First off, no one said those matches didn't count, you'd know that if you quit jumping the gun in your responses. Second, you're one to talk considering the fact that you yourself were trying to do that in the post I quoted in the first place:



you see, it's easy to dwelve into the "peak" talk and all that jazz, but somehow I doubt these players have ability to summon their absolute best in every single match. Don't you agree with that? As it stands, Maria's and Venus' H2H is dead even and both players didn't face each other in their respective peaks. It's also apparent that Venus is better on grass and Maria is superior on slow/medium paced hardcourts. Anything beyond that is just fanboy talk/perceptions. That's all

bandabou
Dec 30th, 2011, 10:42 AM
how about you stop stirring shit and stick to your own fave, intead of pretending to know what us Masha fans say or think? You are the biggest BS talker on this board by FAR - constantly twisting and imagining things in that paranoid head of yours. Get over yourself and your obsession with Maria

:rolls: What? Who made this thread about Masha being better than Vee? It's YOU Masha-fans who are obsessed with the Williamses. Masha will never be as great as them, get over it.

I don't need to imagine things..you guys post things yourself. " Her losses against Caro don't count, because that was Slumping Masha." Who said that? Not moi, so...:lol: :wavey:

KBlade
Dec 30th, 2011, 11:28 AM
Yeah because Maria thrives on long rallies :tape: and 2-3 strikes is enough to win the point against Sharapova on any surface. She's just that slow.

Exactly. I have no idea why Venus's ability to sustain long rallies is being questioned, when Sharapova is definitely most vulnerable when engaged in lengthy rallies. If Sharapova can't end points quickly, then her opponents have opportunities to move her around and expose her lack of defensive ability. Venus's has more fire-power than Sharapova at her best, and definitely by far a better defensive game, hence Venus would win the majority of any lengthy rallies that the two would be drawn into.

The closest they have come to playing at their respective peaks was the 2005 Wimbledon Semi-final, and Venus quite frankly simply overwhelmed Sharapova.

doomsday
Dec 30th, 2011, 11:34 AM
Exactly. I have no idea why Venus's ability to sustain long rallies is being questioned, when Sharapova is definitely most vulnerable when engaged in lengthy rallies. If Sharapova can't end points quickly, then her opponents have opportunities to move her around and expose her lack of defensive ability. Venus's has more fire-power than Sharapova at her best, and definitely by far a better defensive game, hence Venus would win the majority of any lengthy rallies that the two would be drawn into.

The closest they have come to playing at their respective peaks was the 2005 Wimbledon Semi-final, and Venus quite frankly simply overwhelmed Sharapova.

Miami 2005 was also a very good indicator, a match Sharapova won 4 and 3 and Venus didn't play badly, you can check the stats if you want. I simply don't get why you choose Wimbledon meeting but erase Miami from your memory ( well deep down I know why ) as far as I know it was still in 2005 and Maria outplayed in that match and it's simply not true to say that Venus would beat Sharapova with 2 or 3 shots because some surfaces won't allow her to do that. We're not talking about grass or fast HC but slow HC.

PyzGT_XUKeM

KBlade
Dec 30th, 2011, 11:45 AM
Miami 2005 was also a very good indicator, a match Sharapova won 4 and 3 and Venus didn't play badly, you could check the star if you want. I simply don't get why you choose Wimbledon meeting but erase Miami from your memory ( well deep down I know why ) as far as I know it was still in 2005 and Maria outplayed in that match and it's simply not true to say that Venus would beat Sharapova with 2 or 3 shots because some surfaces won't allow her to do that. We're not talking about grass or fast HC but slow HC.

PyzGT_XUKeM

I would argue that Wimbledon was a much more high quality match than this which more effectively show cased both players abilities. Especially given the occasion was a Grand Slam Semi-Final, and both players were most likely to have been in better form than in this match, since both players would have had to have won at least 5 matches on the run to get to that stage.

Facts are, slower courts favour Sharapova as they allow her more time to set up and mask her movement deficiencies. Also bear in mind that I said this was the closest they came to playing at their respective peaks, and Venus was still a lot further away from her former peak than Sharapova was to her future peak. I honestly don't think any iteration of Sharapova could defeated 03' Venus Williams on slow hard courts.

Matt01
Dec 30th, 2011, 11:47 AM
Maria at her very best [has an even uglier game] than Vee.

Beat
Dec 30th, 2011, 11:48 AM
her compatriot.


:spit:

It then becomes convinient to establish Maria as one of the greatest thus most complete player to have ever played the WTA game. :)

:spit:

[posting a match against ivanovic as some kind of proof]

:spit:

doomsday
Dec 30th, 2011, 11:53 AM
I would argue that Wimbledon was a much more high quality match than this which more effectively show cased both players abilities.

Well, on grass there is simply no contest Venus would absolutely crush Maria at her peak on the surface and she did it twice very convincingly, noone can deny that. But on slow hC i can understand if some masha fans believe in Maria's chances, after all she has a great record on slow HC, won OZ and made plenty of semis and she also reached 3 miami finals. Venus won Miami plenty of times but she was never that good in OZ and slow courts in general though, tbh she is very dire.

doomsday
Dec 30th, 2011, 11:55 AM
Maria at her very best [has an even uglier game] than Vee.

:lol: says the guys who enjoys Wozniacki's game.

madmax
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:03 PM
Exactly. I have no idea why Venus's ability to sustain long rallies is being questioned, when Sharapova is definitely most vulnerable when engaged in lengthy rallies. If Sharapova can't end points quickly, then her opponents have opportunities to move her around and expose her lack of defensive ability. Venus's has more fire-power than Sharapova at her best, and definitely by far a better defensive game, hence Venus would win the majority of any lengthy rallies that the two would be drawn into.

The closest they have come to playing at their respective peaks was the 2005 Wimbledon Semi-final, and Venus quite frankly simply overwhelmed Sharapova.

talking about "overwhelming", they both played on fast HC back in 2004 and Maria was the one dictating the rallies and eventually winning 3 and 4. And this was a teenage version of Maria, not even close to late 2007 - early 2008 Sharapova. It's also funny, how apparently only matches on grass count, yet convienently forgetting other encounters. Oh the powers of hypocrisy:lol:

Viktymise
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:20 PM
PyzGT_XUKeM

GOAT final game.

And I can't believe everybody fell hook, line and sinker for this. :facepalm:

At least Matt01 just got pwned, I suppose.

doomsday
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:24 PM
talking about "overwhelming", they both played on fast HC back in 2004 and Maria was the one dictating the rallies and eventually winning 3 and 4. And this was a teenage version of Maria, not even close to late 2007 - early 2008 Sharapova. It's also funny, how apparently only matches on grass count, yet convienently forgetting other encounters. Oh the powers of hypocrisy:lol:

Oh yeah that match in Zurich, Maria was indeed very impressive and Venus didn't even play badly in that match too. It really was a great match Maria was so fearless back then, she was hitting all her shots with a great timing and so hard reminding me some of her shots in YEC2006, 2007. I miss that Maria.:sad:

dsanders06
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:29 PM
I just watches those highlights too. Pretty sad that a player with an undisagnosed disease, who hadn't played in months because of injury, was just points away from defeating the defending champion who was healthy all summer. Just imagine if Venus was completely healthy in that match. :eek:

Ill or not, all I know is Venus played one of her best matches outside of Wimbledon since 2003, and it still wasn't good enough to beat a Kim at barely 60% :happy:

But what I don't understand is this: Why in the HELL would a Peak Maria-Peak Venus match be loaded with long rallies? Regardless of the surface, it's not what either girl is shooting for - they're both looking to take charge and end the point asap. Is Maria's technique better than Venus'? Sure, I don't see any reason to deny that, but the point is, long rallies wouldn't be making up anywhere NEAR a majority in their matches for such greater technique to truly be an issue. Though I doubt it's what you truly believe, to an extent you seem to be arguing that Maria is a quality defender/mover, which I'm sorry, but she is not. Venus moves better than her on any surface if just for the fact that she's a better athlete.

The thing I don't get is, why do you presume that winning long rallies is going to be a key factor in the meetings? Maria possibly faring better against defensive players has nothing to do with her matchup against an offensive baseliner who likes to pound the ball for one or two strikes and then finish points at the net. Maria is not Jankovic or Zvonareva, and placing her and Venus on slow hard/clay isn't going to make her into them. It seems like you have this idea that if they play on clay whoever can counterpunch the best would win, when in reality powerful, first strike tennis DOES exist(and win) on slow surfaces::

I really don't know why some of you people think long rallies is interchangeable with counter-punching/defensive abilities :lol: It's not necessarily about that at all. Peak Venus has more raw pace on her shots, but peak Maria gets better consistent length on her shots AND is less error-prone, which makes her better suited to slower surfaces in this particular match-up. You say "peak Venus would be killing off the points in two shots", but the fact is Venus even at her very best NEVER managed to do that on slow hardcourts - again, see her loss to Seles, a player she matched up extremely well with on quick surfaces, at the AO02. Just like against Seles, on slow HCs Maria would be able to get more of Venus's serves into play and most of Venus's shots wouldn't pick enough traction from the slow court speed to kill off the point... and then once the rallies extended beyond 5-6 shots, Maria would be heavily favoured not because of "counter-punching" but because of both her better technique and the fact I would say she hits a more consistently heavy and deeper rally ball (even though Venus when in position probably can hit pacier shots, but as said that reaps fewer rewards on slow surfaces) - just like Venus's match against Seles.

I have to say I love how Venus fans relish bringing up Venus's Slam count when she's compared to an inferior player, yet when we're talking about a specific match-up between Maria and Venus on slow hardcourts, suddenly Slams aren't important afterall and they ignore the fact Maria has won the Australian Open and Venus hasn't :lol:

What?! Did you even see that match? Pam Shriver even mentioned how Seles needed to keep the points as short as possible because of her age and fitness. She said this after Venus had won the 1st set and won most of the long points including the set point. Pam Shriver and Mary Jo Fernandez even said they weren't sure if Seles could won two back to back sets and she needed to keep the points short and she did for the most part. Venus 2nd serve got picked apart and she was nursing that knee injury that kept her out for awhile afterwards. I have seen that match tons of times and the longer the point went on, the better Venus chances EVEN with an injury.

:tape: Just no. Monica needed to keep the points relatively short because her stamina wouldn't've held up for that long (in the match as a whole, not in specific long rallies), but Monica still won the majority of 10+-shot rallies in that match as far as I remember.

Matt01
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:29 PM
At least Matt01 just got pwned


I must have missed that.

VishaalMaria
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:32 PM
Any sound minded tennis fan will know that at their respective bests, Venus would just kill Maria.

doomsday
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:34 PM
Any sound minded tennis fan will know that at their respective bests, Venus would just kill Maria.

I believe that on some surfaces there could be a fight, Venus is certainly a greater player but stop acting like Maria is shit compared to her. She has won OZ whereas Venus hasn't.

Break My Rapture
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:35 PM
We all know i LOVE Maria, even the sweat off her fine ass. But no! Venus at her best was such a fierce striker of the ball and super fast mover that i don't see how Masha could be better :shrug: I love both bitchez though 4 life :p

And Maria won the last match she played against Woz ;)
:crying2:

KBlade
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:38 PM
talking about "overwhelming", they both played on fast HC back in 2004 and Maria was the one dictating the rallies and eventually winning 3 and 4. And this was a teenage version of Maria, not even close to late 2007 - early 2008 Sharapova. It's also funny, how apparently only matches on grass count, yet convienently forgetting other encounters. Oh the powers of hypocrisy:lol:

You can't honestly think that their 2004 encounter was a great example of them both playing at a level close to their peaks. Sharapova was coming off the back of her break through Grand Slam, only 17 years of age, brimming with confidence and really with no reason what so ever to fear anybody.

Venus was coming off the back of arguably her worst season in her career plagued by injuries, her abdominal strain and the murder of her sister, falling in the third round of the AO, the Quarters at the French, the second round at Wimbledon, and the fourth round at the US Open.

Now ask yourself, is this really a fair comparison? I think not.

Apoleb
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:39 PM
GOAT final game.

And I can't believe everybody fell hook, line and sinker for this. :facepalm:

At least Matt01 just got pwned, I suppose.

2-5 down it's what you expect Peak Venus to do routinely to Maria. Too much power for her, and too much athleticism for Sharapova's game to be as effective.

dsanders06
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:42 PM
Any sound minded tennis fan will know that at their respective bests, Venus would just kill Maria.

But if Slams are all-important, the fact Maria already has a MUCH better record than Venus at the slow hardcourt Grand Slam means Maria would "kill" her there, right?

2-5 down it's what you expect Peak Venus to do routinely to Maria. Too much power for her, and too much athleticism for Sharapova's game to be as effective.

Oh yeah, that one game proves everything, not the entire rest of the match where Maria was beating her relatively comfortably :lol:

dsanders06
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:45 PM
You can't honestly think that their 2004 encounter was a great example of them both playing at a level close to their peaks. Sharapova was coming off the back of her break through Grand Slam, only 17 years of age, brimming with confidence and really with no reason what so ever to fear anybody.

Venus was coming off the back of arguably her worst season in her career plagued by injuries, her abdominal strain and the murder of her sister, falling in the third round of the AO, the Quarters at the French, the second round at Wimbledon, and the fourth round at the US Open.

Now ask yourself, is this really a fair comparison? I think not.

Not the 2004 match, but the 2005 Miami match is a relatively fair comparison (and on slow hardcourts too :) ). Venus was having one of her best slow HC tournaments post-2003 having just beaten Serena for the first time in years, but Maria (not quite peaking herself) still beat her fairly routinely.

Actually, that video of that match proves what I've been saying - that point at 1:45 would happen OVER AND OVER again in a match between these two at their peak on slow HCs - Maria managing to soak up Venus's first couple of blows, then using her better depth on and confidence in her groundstrokes to win the point.

allhailwilliams
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:46 PM
GOAT final game.

And I can't believe everybody fell hook, line and sinker for this. :facepalm:

At least Matt01 just got pwned, I suppose.

i knew some clown was going to drag this dated match out. clearly, if you dont remember, that v was injured in this match..., she was not anywhere close to her best. maria is a very fine player.., but so is oudin who clean maria's clock good a couple years back when maria was supposed at her best. maria will alway's be venus's ugly step-sister... and dont you forget it trick!! venus was bad to the bone at birth...just like her sister!!!! maria will never win another slam! maria will fall out of the top ten! maria will struggle with lot's of people this year. dont get it twisted, maria is only a fantasy in the white-mans mind.

madmax
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:48 PM
You can't honestly think that their 2004 encounter was a great example of them both playing at a level close to their peaks. Sharapova was coming off the back of her break through Grand Slam, only 17 years of age, brimming with confidence and really with no reason what so ever to fear anybody.

Venus was coming off the back of arguably her worst season in her career plagued by injuries, her abdominal strain and the murder of her sister, falling in the third round of the AO, the Quarters at the French, the second round at Wimbledon, and the fourth round at the US Open.

Now ask yourself, is this really a fair comparison? I think not.

once again - excuses galore.
Anybody can say that their favourite player didn't play "as well as she can" in any particular match. The reality is different though and we Masha fans had to endure plenty of dumb and inexplicable losses in her career too. Are we making excuses? No, because Maria herself never does. She always compliments her opponents for being better on a day and remains her dignity. Therefore saying that Venus wasn't at her best in that match doesn't take away from the fact that Maria wasn't either.

doomsday
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:52 PM
i knew some clown was going to drag this dated match out. clearly, if you dont remember that v was injured in this match. she was not anywere close to her best. maria is a very fine player.., but so is oudin who clean maria's clock couple years back when maria was supposed at her best. maria will alway's be venus's ugly step-sister... and dont you forget it trick. venus was bad to the bone at birth...just like her sister. maria will never win another slam. maria will fall out of the top ten. maria will struggle with lot's of people this year. dont get it twisted, maria is only a fantasy in the white-mans mind.

Who is the clown? :lol: and now Venus was injured in that match :lol: I can't believe the shit coming out of your mouth. Venus was healthy and played fairly well in that match, she even hit more winners than Maria and about the same UE but judging by the end of your post it's better if I let it go cause you seems to be a pathetic hater.

J4m3ka
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:53 PM
The closest they have come to playing at their respective peaks was the 2005 Wimbledon Semi-final, and Venus quite frankly simply overwhelmed Sharapova.

I agree, although that match should have been a 6-3 6-1 drumming reminiscent of Serena - Martha matches. Queenus tried to choke the first set away but still managed to send the defending champion packing.

Apoleb
Dec 30th, 2011, 12:54 PM
Who is the clown? :lol: and now Venus was injured in that match :lol: I can't believe the shit coming out of your mouth. Venus was healthy and played fairly well in that match, she even hit more winners than Maria and about the same UE but judging by the end of your post it's better if I let it go cause you seems to be a pathetic hater.

"even hit more winners"? Duh, that just proves the point. If grade B- Venus can hit more winners than A- Pova, what would A Venus do? She was actually moving pretty badly in that match for her standards, even worse than Wimbledon 2007 in which Sharapova was crushed to death.

It's too bad those two never played at the US Open between 2003 and 2007. All we have now are two crushing defeats by Venus at Wimbledon and some losses against a grade C Venus on random HC tournies.

KBlade
Dec 30th, 2011, 01:00 PM
once again - excuses galore.
Anybody can say that their favourite player didn't play "as well as she can" in any particular match. The reality is different though and we Masha fans had to endure plenty of dumb and inexplicable losses in her career too. Are we making excuses? No, because Maria herself never does. She always compliments her opponents for being better on a day and remains her dignity. Therefore saying that Venus wasn't at her best in that match doesn't take away from the fact that Maria wasn't either.

Well, the reality is that the head to head is 3-3 and generally in the higher quality matches, Venus has managed to come out on top convincingly. And I'm not saying Venus didn't play as well as she can, it's not a statement of opinion, it is fact. Venus's annual form coming into that match proves it.

As for the bolded part, I really have no idea what you're even trying to prove. This discussion has nothing to do with Maria's attitude. In fact, it's really completely irrelevant. I'm really not sure where this slow court argument has cropped up either, but all of the times Venus has lost to Sharapova, she has at least been able to keep the score respectable, whereas Sharapova has never come to close to inflicting a beat down of similiar proportions to what Venus has done to her in all of her wins.

Also note that all Venus's straight set losses occurred in the 04 - 05' time period when Sharapova was probably at her peak in the movement department before she grew into her frame and became much more cumbersome. Ever since Sharapova has lost that extra step in the defensive department (2006 onwards) Venus has become a much more difficult player for her to handle.

doomsday
Dec 30th, 2011, 01:07 PM
"even hit more winners"? Duh, that just proves the point. If grade B- Venus can hit more winners than A- Pova, what would A Venus do? She was actually moving pretty badly in that match for her standards, even worse than Wimbledon 2007 in which Sharapova was crushed to death.

It's too bad those two never played at the US Open between 2003 and 2007. All we have now are two crushing defeats by Venus at Wimbledon and some losses against a grade C Venus on random HC tournies.

You're the only one saying it was a grade B- Venus, and for your information Sharapova's shots and serve on grass aren't as effective as they are on HC. Maria's game and serve are more suited to slow HC and it's also too bad those two never met at the OZ Open where Maria would sure have the edge.

Apoleb
Dec 30th, 2011, 01:11 PM
You're the only one saying it was a grade B- Venus, and for your information Sharapova's shots and serve on grass aren't as effective as they are on HC. Maria's game and serve are more suited to slow HC and it's also too bad those two never met at the OZ Open where Maria would sure have the edge.

Venus' best performances in the AO came before her injury in 2002-2003, so Maria having the edge there post-03 means squat, as Venus was losing to much worse players anyways.

Anyway, there is no convincing Masha tards here, just like they believe 2006 Maria (:happy:) would have beaten 2007 Justine. I guess they will keep believing that if it wasn't for the shoulder she would have been competitive against the WS, while in reality, instead of making the score 61 62, it would have been 63 64. Crapova is no match for the elite of this generation.

doomsday
Dec 30th, 2011, 01:19 PM
Venus' best performances in the AO came before her injury in 2002-2003, so Maria having the edge there post-03 means squat, as Venus was losing to much worse players anyways..

Sure.:lol: Anyway we all agree to say that even during her peak years she wasn't even able to win that event unlike Maria.

Anyway, there is no convincing Masha tards here, just like they believe 2006 Maria (:happy:) would have beaten 2007 Justine. I guess they will keep believing that if it wasn't for the shoulder she would have been competitive against the WS, while in reality, instead of making the score 61 62, it would have been 63 64. Crapova is no match for the elite of this generation.

2006 Maria defeating Justine 2007 euuh where exactly, I'm not sure I've seen one masha fan stated so? Please show me some receipts.
And I don't care if you think Maria is no match for the elite of this generation, the only thing who matter is that she won majors over them and challenged them pretty damn well in her career despite being 5-6 younger than them.

sammy01
Dec 30th, 2011, 01:20 PM
sharapova's problem is serena, kim, henin and venus are just a million times better athletes than her. yes she has wins over them and decent ones, but if those 4 are hitting well, couple that with their movement and sharapova just has no chance.

serenafan08
Dec 30th, 2011, 01:21 PM
:lol: Maria can't defend as well as Venus, and that would be the difference. You can beat a great offense with great defense, and Venus is able to turn defense into offense with one shot - something Maria never has been able to do consistently. Venus loves pace; she can hit against it all day. The way to beat her is to change it up, which is something Maria never does.

KBlade
Dec 30th, 2011, 01:22 PM
Sure.:lol: Anyway we all agree to say that even during her peak years she wasn't even able to win that event unlike Maria.



2006 Maria defeating Justine 2007 euuh where exactly, I'm not sure I've seen one masha fan stated so? Please show me some receipts.
And I don't care if you think Maria is no match for the elite of this generation, the only thing who matter is that she won majors over them and challenged them pretty damn well in her career despite being 5-6 younger than them.

And being younger than them is a disadvantage, how? :lol:

allhailwilliams
Dec 30th, 2011, 01:28 PM
sharapova's problem is serena, kim, henin and venus are just a million times better athletes than her. yes she has wins over them and decent ones, but if those 4 are hitting well, couple that with their movement and sharapova just has no chance.

thanks sammy. my thoughts exactly.

doomsday
Dec 30th, 2011, 01:31 PM
And being younger than them is a disadvantage, how? :lol:

That's not what I said, just stating that what she achieved at such a young age is pretty amazing.

doomsday
Dec 30th, 2011, 01:33 PM
sharapova's problem is serena, kim, henin and venus are just a million times better athletes than her. yes she has wins over them and decent ones, but if those 4 are hitting well, couple that with their movement and sharapova just has no chance.

Sure so she only got her wins one them cause they were injured, slumping, out of form, in retirement mode, in disease mode etc.........:lol:

allhailwilliams
Dec 30th, 2011, 01:33 PM
i cannot wait to see czeck chick clock maria again in 12. everyone good will clock maria in 12. kim, sammy, the china girls, jankovich, the number 1 who will never win a slam, i wont even mention the black girls.

madmax
Dec 30th, 2011, 01:41 PM
Sure so she only got her wins one them cause they were injured, slumping, out of form, in retirement mode, in disease mode etc.........:lol:

you know how it rolls with Pova on this board - she is just another taller Dementieva/Azarenka with mental strenght if you listen to the likes of Apoleb and co:lol:All of her titles are fluke and she has no talent to speak off too...

danieln1
Dec 30th, 2011, 01:47 PM
This is a all dolled up and fancy peak Venus and peak Maria thread :shrug:

Peak Venus would toast peak Maria in any surface

sammy01
Dec 30th, 2011, 01:57 PM
Sure so she only got her wins one them cause they were injured, slumping, out of form, in retirement mode, in disease mode etc.........:lol:

no but when those 4 are IN form i would say the only players to be able to beat them is each other. sharapova has never reached a level those have as she just cant combine the hitting with the movement. of course over the years those players have gradually become less likely to bring great form given their ages, but when they do it is still slam winning form.

it is not a slight on sharapova, im comparing her to the 4 best players of the last 10+ years and venus is one of them for a reason.

dsanders06
Dec 30th, 2011, 02:05 PM
"even hit more winners"? Duh, that just proves the point. If grade B- Venus can hit more winners than A- Pova, what would A Venus do? She was actually moving pretty badly in that match for her standards, even worse than Wimbledon 2007 in which Sharapova was crushed to death.

It's too bad those two never played at the US Open between 2003 and 2007. All we have now are two crushing defeats by Venus at Wimbledon and some losses against a grade C Venus on random HC tournies.

Funny how Venus's form is always mentioned, yet Maria's form when she lost to Venus never is :lol:

And the only reason they never played at a Slam other than Wimbledon is simply because Venus was never good enough to get through to play Maria when the latter was peaking. In the whole 2004-08 period, RG06 and the '07 US Open were the ONLY Slams other than Wimbledon in those entire 5 years where Venus went further in the draw than Maria.

no but when those 4 are IN form i would say the only players to be able to beat them is each other. sharapova has never reached a level those have as she just cant combine the hitting with the movement. of course over the years those players have gradually become less likely to bring great form given their ages, but when they do it is still slam winning form.

it is not a slight on sharapova, im comparing her to the 4 best players of the last 10+ years and venus is one of them for a reason.

...on grass. No-one would deny peak Venus beats peak Maria (or anyone else in her generation) on grass. But taking Wimbledon out of the equation, they're both on 2 Slams apiece, so on other surfaces they're clearly very much in the same league.

Vikapower
Dec 30th, 2011, 02:06 PM
I don't need to imagine things..you guys post things yourself. " Her losses against Caro don't count, because that was Slumping Masha." Who said that? Not moi, so...:lol: :wavey:

[To all your posts in this thread]

You're quick to make a distinction between pre-/post-2003 Vee and refuse to acknowledge the same for Maria.

atominside
Dec 30th, 2011, 02:08 PM
uh just for you to know. Peak clijsters cant handle peak maria.

sammy01
Dec 30th, 2011, 02:11 PM
Funny how Venus's form is always mentioned, yet Maria's form when she lost to Venus never is :lol:

And the only reason they never played at a Slam other than Wimbledon is simply because Venus was never good enough to get through to play Maria when the latter was peaking. In the whole 2004-08 period, the '07 US Open was the ONLY Slam other than Wimbledon in those entire 5 years where Venus went further in the draw than Maria.



...on grass. No-one would deny peak Venus beats peak Maria (or anyone else in her generation) on grass. But taking Wimbledon out of the equation, they're both on 2 Slams apiece, so on other surfaces they're very much in the same league :lol:

i'm no venus fan but even passed her peak venus has won a YEC and been RU at it the last few years. heck even during a year she barely played the 2nd half of she made the us open semi final.

dsanders06
Dec 30th, 2011, 02:13 PM
i'm no venus fan but even passed her peak venus has won a YEC and been RU at it the last few years. heck even during a year she barely played the 2nd half of she made the us open semi final.

Maria's done both those things too :lol: The point is even at her PEAK, Venus didn't do as well as Maria at the Australian Open, and wasn't leagues ahead even at the US Open. I'd put money on Maria surpassing her record at RG too (one more semifinal would do it imo).

atominside
Dec 30th, 2011, 02:15 PM
you guys are delusional if you really think peak maria > peak venus.. venus would win 7 out of 10..

sammy01
Dec 30th, 2011, 02:17 PM
Maria's done both those things too :lol: The point is even at her PEAK, Venus didn't do as well as Maria at the Australian Open, and wasn't leagues ahead even at the US Open. I'd put money on Maria surpassing her record at RG too (one more semifinal would do it imo).

2 slams + 2 RU isn't leagues ahead of 1 slam???????????

dsanders06
Dec 30th, 2011, 02:18 PM
2 slams + 2 RU isn't leagues ahead of 1 slam???????????

It's ahead of her for sure, but it hardly suggests "she's not even close to her LEAGUE!!!!!!!1111" like people like Bandabou have been saying, and it's no bigger the gap between their records at the AO.

Slutiana
Dec 30th, 2011, 02:25 PM
You know this is an atrocious thread when Sammy is defending Venus. :lol:

I can't believe it has gone on for so long. The only defense that people have is Sharapova being better at rallying than Venus. Maria is definitely an underrated rally player and it is a pretty big part of her game, but if she ever attempted to do that against Venus she would be completely eaten alive. In a match between two big hitters, 3/4 pace balls just don't happen.

Venus has far more potent weapons, she's better mover and athlete, and her game is so much more complete game. would win on any surface at their best.

Miss Atomic Bomb
Dec 30th, 2011, 02:30 PM
You know this is an atrocious thread when Sammy is defending Venus. :lol:

I was just thinking that :lol: Whats next.. Oliviasmith defending Sharapova? :sobbing:

Its funny to consider that outside of Grass venus has 2 slams; outside of RG Henin has only 3 slams; outside of USO Kim has only 1 slam, but they all at least have a dominant surface, the same can't be said about Sharapova.

Anyways, pre-2003 Venus will destroy Sharapova on Fast HC and grass. On clay it will be a two set victory, but not as easy as grass and medium-paced HC it will be a tougher win.

Viktymise
Dec 30th, 2011, 02:35 PM
Ill or not, all I know is Venus played one of her best matches outside of Wimbledon since 2003, and it still wasn't good enough to beat a Kim at barely 60% :happy:.

:cuckoo:

KBlade
Dec 30th, 2011, 02:40 PM
Funny how Venus's form is always mentioned, yet Maria's form when she lost to Venus never is :lol:

And the only reason they never played at a Slam other than Wimbledon is simply because Venus was never good enough to get through to play Maria when the latter was peaking. In the whole 2004-08 period, RG06 and the '07 US Open were the ONLY Slams other than Wimbledon in those entire 5 years where Venus went further in the draw than Maria.



...on grass. No-one would deny peak Venus beats peak Maria (or anyone else in her generation) on grass. But taking Wimbledon out of the equation, they're both on 2 Slams apiece, so on other surfaces they're clearly very much in the same league.

Oh lord, this is too much :haha:

Venus hardly faced Sharapova over these 5 years because she wasn't good enough? Wait, this is the same Venus who won 3 slams during that five year span, the same number Maria has won in her ENTIRE CAREER, and she was the one who wasn't good enough to face Sharapova? :help:

L'Enfant Sauvage
Dec 30th, 2011, 02:49 PM
To condense dsanders' response, they were on grass so they don't count.

Apoleb
Dec 30th, 2011, 02:50 PM
You know this is an atrocious thread when Sammy is defending Venus. :lol:



It's what you always expect in a peak vs peak thread. Troll haven.

Dominic
Dec 30th, 2011, 02:52 PM
:lol: Maria can't defend as well as Venus, and that would be the difference. You can beat a great offense with great defense, and Venus is able to turn defense into offense with one shot - something Maria never has been able to do consistently. Venus loves pace; she can hit against it all day. The way to beat her is to change it up, which is something Maria never does.

BS :help: 2 words: crosscourt forehand

sammy01
Dec 30th, 2011, 02:54 PM
You know this is an atrocious thread when Sammy is defending Venus. :lol:

I can't believe it has gone on for so long. The only defense that people have is Sharapova being better at rallying than Venus. Maria is definitely an underrated rally player and it is a pretty big part of her game, but if she ever attempted to do that against Venus she would be completely eaten alive. In a match between two big hitters, 3/4 pace balls just don't happen.

Venus has far more potent weapons, she's better mover and athlete, and her game is so much more complete game. would win on any surface at their best.

sob, i cant even mention venus wonky technique cus maria's is wonkier :sad::angel:

the lol thing is i haven't considered venus a contender for the last couple of years, yet she won her last slam AFTER maria, what does that say about pova :tape:

KBlade
Dec 30th, 2011, 02:55 PM
GoTrollic is here. Escape while you can.

dsanders06
Dec 30th, 2011, 03:00 PM
Oh lord, this is too much :haha:

Venus hardly faced Sharapova over these 5 years because she wasn't good enough? Wait, this is the same Venus who won 3 slams during that five year span, the same number Maria has won in her ENTIRE CAREER, and she was the one who wasn't good enough to face Sharapova? :help:

To condense dsanders' response, they were on grass so they don't count.

Did either of you even read the post I was responding to? :lol: The poster was saying it was a shame they didn't meet outside of Wimbledon - therefore specifically excluding Wimbledon from the premises of the discussion - and I pointed out it was Venus's fault that they NEVER met at a Slam other than Wimbledon during Maria's peak.

And anyway, obviously Wimbledon COUNTS, which is why Venus as of now is far ahead of Maria in overall accomplishments. And everyone accepts Venus would beat Maria on grass no matter what Maria's form (and indeed would beat everyone else in her generation on that surface). That doesn't change the fact that, when talking about this match-up on OTHER surfaces, their achievements are very much in the same league on those surfaces, and therefore there's a very legitimate argument that Maria would win on specific surfaces :wavey:

madmax
Dec 30th, 2011, 03:01 PM
GoTrollic is here. Escape while you can.

GoDokic knows more about tennis than all of WS fanbase knowledge put together here:wavey:

doomsday
Dec 30th, 2011, 03:06 PM
no but when those 4 are IN form i would say the only players to be able to beat them is each other. sharapova has never reached a level those have as she just cant combine the hitting with the movement. of course over the years those players have gradually become less likely to bring great form given their ages, but when they do it is still slam winning form.

it is not a slight on sharapova, im comparing her to the 4 best players of the last 10+ years and venus is one of them for a reason.

:lol: you guys are dumb to not see what Sammy is doing here :lol: since when Clijsters is among these 3 anyway this another debate but Im not sure Clijsters can handle Peak Pova. But it was smart to argue about those 3 just to put Clijsters' game in it.:lol:

KBlade
Dec 30th, 2011, 03:08 PM
Did either of you even read the post I was responding to? :lol: The poster was saying it was a shame they didn't meet outside of Wimbledon - therefore specifically excluding Wimbledon from the premises of the discussion - and I pointed out it was Venus's fault that they NEVER met at a Slam other than Wimbledon during Maria's peak.

And anyway, obviously Wimbledon COUNTS, which is why Venus as of now is far ahead of Maria in overall accomplishments. And everyone accepts Venus would beat Maria on grass no matter what Maria's form (and indeed would beat everyone else in her generation on that surface). That doesn't change the fact that, when talking about this match-up on OTHER surfaces, their achievements are very much in the same league on those surfaces, and therefore there's a very legitimate argument that Maria would win on specific surfaces :wavey:

I hardly think it's entirely Venus's fault. Sharapova was out for 9 months with her shoulder injury, has suffered multiple early exits at Wimbledon since she has won it, has also suffered some embarrassing losses at the US Open as well subsequent to her title run in 2006. And they both suck too much on clay for them ever to meet.

It just so happened that Maria's rise coincidentally took place around the years that Venus was suffering injury, and when Venus did in fact regain her form and consistency circa 2007 - 2008, it was Sharapova who was forced out of the game due to injury. It is not all Venus's 'fault' they have not met.

KBlade
Dec 30th, 2011, 03:10 PM
GoDokic knows more about tennis than all of WS fanbase knowledge put together here:wavey:

Shows just about how much you know as well :lol:

sammy01
Dec 30th, 2011, 03:12 PM
:lol: you guys are dumb to not see what Sammy is doing here :lol: since when Clijsters is among these 3 anyway this another debate but Im not sure Clijsters can handle Peak Pova. But it was smart to argue about those 3 just to put Clijsters' game in it.:lol:

i believe serena, henin, venus and kim are all above sharapova interms of the tennis they can produce. i am also of the mind those 4 are above the tennis of everyone over the last 10 years. their stats back me up on this.

we all know venus is both an all round better player than sharapova and venus at her very best was awesome.

why do sharapova fans get so uptight about admitting she is the 5th best player of this recent generation? that is a damn fine thing.

Mistress of Evil
Dec 30th, 2011, 03:28 PM
I was just thinking that :lol: Whats next.. Oliviasmith defending Sharapova? :sobbing:

Its funny to consider that outside of Grass venus has 2 slams; outside of RG Henin has only 3 slams; outside of USO Kim has only 1 slam, but they all at least have a dominant surface, the same can't be said about Sharapova.

Anyways, pre-2003 Venus will destroy Sharapova on Fast HC and grass. On clay it will be a two set victory, but not as easy as grass and medium-paced HC it will be a tougher win.

Yes, please! :hearts:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ltco1umJuU1qafrh6.gif

The Dawntreader
Dec 30th, 2011, 03:29 PM
Venus just does everything better than Sharapova. Even tactically she's far superior.

There's been a glut of Pova threads recently, trying to somehow suggest she's some tragic-heroine GOAT who without cruel circumstance would be the best player of her generation.

I think it's insulting to even compare the two, never mind insinuate Pova is better. And all this talk about Pova being some slow-hardcourt goddess, getting trashed by Kuznetsova on slow outdoor hard ( AT HER PEAK!!!!!) hardly makes the argument credible that peak Venus or anyone else really would be out of Pova's league on slow hardcourt.

I'm done.

Vikapower
Dec 30th, 2011, 03:33 PM
Well, on grass there is simply no contest Venus would absolutely crush Maria at her peak on the surface and she did it twice very convincingly, noone can deny that. But on slow hC i can understand if some masha fans believe in Maria's chances, after all she has a great record on slow HC, won OZ and made plenty of semis and she also reached 3 miami finals. Venus won Miami plenty of times but she was never that good in OZ and slow courts in general though, tbh she is very dire.

Vee is undeniably a very good fast court if not better fast court player than Maria (grass and decoturf) but elsewhere Maria who has proved herself where it counts (AO, SF, SF, F, W) and even RG (2 SF, 3 QF) unquestionably peak or non peak Vee would 5-6 times out of 10

Maria can play overall well on every surface, Vee is just pretty much one-dimensional Grass or/and Decoturf -- Venus is just a good player.

To condense dsanders' response, they were on grass so they don't count.

Venus is a good player who can only do well and actually does well on grass (add decoturf, approximately the same)... Maria does or has proven herself everywhere.

Pre-2003/post-2003 what difference ? Pre-2003 she certainly had better consistency and luck with her power game, a tad quicker certainly which allowed her more and better opportunities with her defenses change-less... she's just a good player with a good pedigree, Maria is just better.

Pump-it-UP
Dec 30th, 2011, 03:33 PM
Maria's done both those things too :lol: The point is even at her PEAK, Venus didn't do as well as Maria at the Australian Open, and wasn't leagues ahead even at the US Open. I'd put money on Maria surpassing her record at RG too (one more semifinal would do it imo).

I CAN'T. :spit:

Maria has had TWO good years at the US Open. 1 W and 1 SF. She's made the 2nd week 3/8 times. Every other year she has gotten snatched by the first good player that she has faced. 2004 Pierce, Radwanska, Pennetta, Oudin. Venus has never lost a match there before the 4R, and her only two 4R losses came to peak Davenport in 2004 and Clijsters in 2009. Her only two QF losses came to peak Clijsters in 2005 and Serena in 2008. She made at least the semis for 6 consecutive years, and the only players that she has EVER lost to at the US Open are Serena, Hingis, Davenport, Henin, and Clijsters. It's pretty safe to say that Venus is MORE than several leagues ahead of Maria at the US Open. :tape: I'm not even trying to shade Maria, but come on... she's not even more accomplished than Kuznetsova in New York. :o

Vikapower
Dec 30th, 2011, 03:39 PM
Even tactically she's far superior.

Where has Venus shown that she's a better tactical player than Maria ? If anything else, Venus just plays her unique power game stronger, hard and harder again even when the difficulties she faces shows her that this is not the way to go.

Venus has no variety (how many slices, droppers or even S&V) and has shown even in the past little abilities to implement them consistently into a game-plan, if she indeed does have one.

doomsday
Dec 30th, 2011, 03:40 PM
i believe serena, henin, venus and kim are all above sharapova interms of the tennis they can produce. i am also of the mind those 4 are above the tennis of everyone over the last 10 years. their stats back me up on this.

we all know venus is both an all round better player than sharapova and venus at her very best was awesome.

why do sharapova fans get so uptight about admitting she is the 5th best player of this recent generation? that is a damn fine thing.

I'm not upset at all I did say that on all the others surfaces Venus would beat Maria and has sth to back it up, but in slow HC this is simply not the case. Maria has the OZ and a better record on slow HC.

bandabou
Dec 30th, 2011, 03:42 PM
Well, on grass there is simply no contest Venus would absolutely crush Maria at her peak on the surface and she did it twice very convincingly, noone can deny that. But on slow hC i can understand if some masha fans believe in Maria's chances, after all she has a great record on slow HC, won OZ and made plenty of semis and she also reached 3 miami finals. Venus won Miami plenty of times but she was never that good in OZ and slow courts in general though, tbh she is very dire.

The consensus is that the faster the surface, the better Vee's chances are...the slower the surface then that might play into Masha's hands.

bandabou
Dec 30th, 2011, 03:54 PM
Sure so she only got her wins one them cause they were injured, slumping, out of form, in retirement mode, in disease mode etc.........:lol:

I hope you ain't including Serena in the list? :lol: 'Cause since Masha got her 15-minutes of fame against Serena in '04, it hadn't mattered if Serena was injured, just coming back or whatever...still SPANKS Masha's anytime anywhere. :wavey:

bandabou
Dec 30th, 2011, 03:56 PM
[To all your posts in this thread]

You're quick to make a distinction between pre-/post-2003 Vee and refuse to acknowledge the same for Maria.

I didn't know Masha ever had back to back years with 2 majors, reached 5 out of 6 major finals ( including 4 in a row)?

Masha even at her best was one major every two year, soo..:shrug:

Matt01
Dec 30th, 2011, 03:56 PM
sob, i cant even mention venus wonky technique cus maria's is wonkier :sad::angel:

the lol thing is i haven't considered venus a contender for the last couple of years, yet she won her last slam AFTER maria, what does that say about pova :tape:


OK, I'm defending Maria now :lol:

Maria, at least at her best and pre-should injury, had better technique than Venus on the serve (especially 2nd serve), on the forehand and arguably also on her backhand. So there are several things that Maria does better than Venus.

And besides, Maria got back to the Top 3 in the rankings this year, played a consistant season and reached a Slam final, while Venus since more than a year now is barely able to win a match, so your last argument doesn't make much sense to me. :shrug:
In fact, outside of grass, with the exceptions of about 3-4 big HC tourneys, Venus has been a non-factor since 2005. :tape: And not all of that can be attributed to her disease.

Apoleb
Dec 30th, 2011, 04:00 PM
The only thing Maria does better is being a more consistent striker of the ball, and a more solid second serve. But as mentioned previously in this thread, Venus' athleticism account for the first one. She isn't bothered by flat rallies and can hang in with Maria's depth purely because she's probably the best athlete the game has ever seen. Venus has the ability to crank up the pace of the rally like Maria never can, and that's the deal breaker.

Stonerpova
Dec 30th, 2011, 04:00 PM
What's even Maria's longest winning streak? At her younger days, she could only manage to win like a slam every 2 years.:tape:

19 matches in 2006 spanning from opening round of the US Open through the YEC semifinal (1. to Henin)
second was 18 matches in 2008 spanning from the opening round of the Australian Open through the Indian Wells semi (l. to Kuznetsova)

Matt01
Dec 30th, 2011, 04:01 PM
Venus has no variety (how many slices, droppers or even S&V)


Venus may have no variety but then Maria's variety is even more non-existant if that's possible :o

Matt01
Dec 30th, 2011, 04:04 PM
The only thing Maria does better is being a more consistent striker of the ball, and a more solid second serve. But as mentioned previously in this thread, Venus' athleticism account for the first one. She isn't bothered by flat rallies and can hang in with Maria's depth purely because she's probably the best athlete the game has ever seen. Venus has the ability to crank up the pace of the rally like Maria never can, and that's the deal breaker.


Yeah, Maria is more consistant and that counts for a lot in my book. Of course if this a peak vs peak thread (which I'm not sure it is?) then this is less relevant...

borrowedheaven
Dec 30th, 2011, 04:04 PM
OK, I'm defending Maria now :lol:

Maria, at least at her best and pre-should injury, had better technique than Venus on the serve (especially 2nd serve), on the forehand and arguably also on her backhand. So there are several things that Maria does better than Venus.

And besides, Maria got back to the Top 3 in the rankings this year, played a consistant season and reached a Slam final, while Venus since more than a year now is barely able to win a match, so your last argument doesn't make much sense to me. :shrug:
In fact, outside of grass, with the exceptions of about 3-4 big HC tourneys, Venus has been a non-factor since 2005. :tape: And not all of that can be attributed to her disease.
I don't think she can be mentioned as a non-factor at the US Open. She has never had any freak losses there, always lost to the best.

The Dawntreader
Dec 30th, 2011, 04:06 PM
Yeah, Maria is more consistant and that counts for a lot in my book. Of course if this a peak vs peak thread (which I'm not sure it is?) then this is less relevant...

Counts for what? That she's a better player? Or her results are more impressive?

Let's not.

Matt01
Dec 30th, 2011, 04:13 PM
Counts for what? That she's a better player? Or her results are more impressive?

Let's not.


Better player, yes.



I don't think she can be mentioned as a non-factor at the US Open. She has never had any freak losses there, always lost to the best.


How often has she reached the USO semis since 2005? 2 or 3 times? Of course a Slam semi isn't a bad achievement, but when you have won that tourney two times in a row before, then I wouldn't really consider reaching the semis a success...and the fact that she lost to the "best" already implies that Venus herself wasn't the best there anymore...

bandabou
Dec 30th, 2011, 04:19 PM
Better player, yes.






How often has she reached the USO semis since 2005? 2 or 3 times? Of course a Slam semi isn't a bad achievement, but when you have won that tourney two times in a row before, then I wouldn't really consider reaching the semis a success...and the fact that she lost to the "best" already implies that Venus herself wasn't the best there anymore...

Really Matty?! Masha doesn't even have a SF since '06, yet Dsanders is insisting that Masha's comparable to Vee even at the U.S. open, so what gives?! :shrug:

doomsday
Dec 30th, 2011, 04:22 PM
I hope you ain't including Serena in the list? :lol: 'Cause since Masha got her 15-minutes of fame against Serena in '04, it hadn't mattered if Serena was injured, just coming back or whatever...still SPANKS Masha's anytime anywhere. :wavey:

I would have add coming back from long layoffs if I was talking about your hero :lol:

doomsday
Dec 30th, 2011, 04:27 PM
The consensus is that the faster the surface, the better Vee's chances are...the slower the surface then that might play into Masha's hands.

Yeah exactly what I meant, I've heard plenty of posters defending Ivanovic's case and Kuz's one on clay just cause they both won 1 FO and made 1 final at the FO and therefore at their peak they could be better than both Serena and Venus at their peak on this surface (I mean, Venus only made one final at the french and lacked consistency on it, she never reached the last four since 2002 now) so when it's about Maria and Vee on slow HC i don't know why these same posters are defending Venus' case cause on slow HC Maria trumps Vee in all stats, has won the major Venus can't even win since 1998, better regularity on it, better record over Vee on slow HC etc....

Roookie
Dec 30th, 2011, 04:33 PM
sharapova fans shouldnt be ofended with her being worse than venus, both legends, but just not in the same league

same as venus fans wouldnt be ofended if someone stated that she is worse than graf Justine

:yeah:

bandabou
Dec 30th, 2011, 04:38 PM
I would have add coming back from long layoffs if I was talking about your hero :lol:

Otherwise it'd be ZERO Wimbledons for your fav. :lol: :wavey:

But good to see that you learned the lesson: DON'T talk about Serena. Good, very good! ;)

doomsday
Dec 30th, 2011, 04:43 PM
i believe serena, henin, venus and kim are all above sharapova interms of the tennis they can produce. i am also of the mind those 4 are above the tennis of everyone over the last 10 years. their stats back me up on this.

we all know venus is both an all round better player than sharapova and venus at her very best was awesome.

why do sharapova fans get so uptight about admitting she is the 5th best player of this recent generation? that is a damn fine thing.

Excuse me I wasn't paying attention to this but Venus's stats and Clijsters' ones back you up on this.:help: Well, if we're talking about level of play on the surface this is just not true, Clijsters' level of play out of US was never in the league Maria's tennis produced in OZ 2008 and even before 2008 and here Maria's stats back me up (SF,SF,F,W) there is no need to mention Vee here, she never won OZ. As for grass courts, Clijsters is no match for Maria at her peak.
So like I said a thousand times, only one player IMO beat peak Pova everywhere and on every surface and this is Serena and if you not agree it's fine but I'm judging by the stats on the surfaces and their level of play on it.

doomsday
Dec 30th, 2011, 04:47 PM
Otherwise it'd be ZERO Wimbledons for your fav. :lol: :wavey:

But good to see that you learned the lesson: DON'T talk about Serena. Good, very good! ;)

Sure keep telling yourself that :lol:

I wasn't talking about her cause she has nothing to do with this thread, I'm not obsessed with your fave but the same can't be said for you over mine.

bandabou
Dec 30th, 2011, 04:51 PM
Sure keep telling yourself that :lol:

I wasn't talking about her cause she has nothing to do with this thread, I'm not obsessed with your fave but the same can't be said for you over mine.

You replied a quote who had Serena's name in it, no?! :shrug:

Matt01
Dec 30th, 2011, 04:51 PM
Really Matty?! Masha doesn't even have a SF since '06, yet Dsanders is insisting that Masha's comparable to Vee even at the U.S. open, so what gives?! :shrug:


I wasn't talking about that. Of course Pova's stats aren't comaprable to Venus at USO but OTOH that's not really a fair comparison, either.

Vikapower
Dec 30th, 2011, 04:52 PM
The consensus is that the faster the surface, the better Vee's chances are...the slower the surface then that might play into Masha's hands.

Venus is some kind of hybrid counter-puncher something like Clijsters who can play big aggressive baseline tennis -- they like the ball the to come fast at them so that they can use the pace more efficiently and make game at will.

Maria is a shot-maker and overall very complete player who can play first strike tennis or keep exchanges, construct points and play good controlled aggression.

Vee's athletic abilities are really what saves her matches opposing her to Maria on fast because generally Maria always has control of the exchanges.

In Wimbledon 2007 you can clearly see, Maria is the one searching to create game, open up the court etc... Venus' serve though is very devastating, her movement and defenses are good, that's about it...

3w7PKOVL4Hw

doomsday
Dec 30th, 2011, 04:58 PM
You replied a quote who had Serena's name in it, no?! :shrug:

Like I said I didn't brought her name. What was I supposed to do? Erasing Serena's name of Sammy's post.

Aaron.
Dec 30th, 2011, 04:58 PM
OK, I'm defending Maria now :lol:

Maria, at least at her best and pre-should injury, had better technique than Venus on the serve (especially 2nd serve), on the forehand and arguably also on her backhand. So there are several things that Maria does better than Venus.

And besides, Maria got back to the Top 3 in the rankings this year, played a consistant season and reached a Slam final, while Venus since more than a year now is barely able to win a match, so your last argument doesn't make much sense to me. :shrug:
In fact, outside of grass, with the exceptions of about 3-4 big HC tourneys, Venus has been a non-factor since 2005. :tape: And not all of that can be attributed to her disease. Are you saying Venus is not capable of winning a slam? At this point in time any top player is capable. Venus just needs to string together 2-3 good matches which isn't impossible. I mean hell Schiavone and Li won the french who are not nearly as good as Venus. Venus is still capable of winning a slam. That's like saying since Sharapova hasn't won a slam in 5-6 years, she's never gonna win one again. Obviously she has the potential to win a slam if she's done it before. I hate when people say ignorant comments ie: the bolded part. Venus is capable of beating all of the top ten when healthy. I don't see why she couldn't win a slam in 2012 when nobody is dominating :shrug:

L'Enfant Sauvage
Dec 30th, 2011, 05:01 PM
Venus is some kind of hybrid counter-puncher something like Clijsters who can play big aggressive baseline tennis -- they like the ball the to come fast at them so that they can use the pace more efficiently and make game at will.

Maria is a shot-maker and overall very complete player who can play first strike tennis or keep exchanges, construct points and play good controlled aggression.

Vee's athletic abilities are really what saves her matches opposing her to Maria on fast because generally Maria always has control of the exchanges.

In Wimbledon 2007 you can clearly see, Maria is the one searching to create game, open up the court etc... Venus' serve though is very devastating, her movement and defenses are good, that's about it...

3w7PKOVL4Hw

You really know your stuff :worship:

Matt01
Dec 30th, 2011, 05:03 PM
Are you saying Venus is not capable of winning a slam? At this point in time any top player is capable. Venus just needs to string together 2-3 good matches which isn't impossible. I mean hell Schiavone and Li won the french who are not nearly as good as Venus. Venus is still capable of winning a slam. That's like saying since Sharapova hasn't won a slam in 5-6 years, she's never gonna win one again. Obviously she has the potential to win a slam if she's done it before. I hate when people say ignorant comments ie: the bolded part. Venus is capable of beating all of the top ten when healthy. I don't see why she couldn't win a slam in 2012 when nobody is dominating :shrug:


First of all she needs to get healthy. That's already a big if.

Then of course she has the chance to win another Slam title on grass.
Plexi and clay: Not so much.
Decoturf: About 1%.

Aaron.
Dec 30th, 2011, 05:05 PM
First of all she needs to get healthy. That's already a big if.

Then of course she has the chance to win another Slam title on grass.
Plexi and clay: Not so much.
Decoturf: About 1%. I had given up hope on Venus on clay until I saw Na Li win the french. Venus can win the french if Na Li can. What does Na Li do better then Venus? She dosen't move better or have a better serve and is error prone like Venus

Vikapower
Dec 30th, 2011, 05:09 PM
Venus may have no variety but then Maria's variety is even more non-existant if that's possible :o

Maria doesn't play varied game all the time because her back-court tennis overwhelms these other aspects of her game... Vee is incapable of playing varied tennis or even implement them effectively with her normal power game like Maria does.

I didn't know Masha ever had back to back years with 2 majors, reached 5 out of 6 major finals ( including 4 in a row)?

Masha even at her best was one major every two year, soo..:shrug:

What's have that to do with anything ? :lol: Nice try... you're post-2003 decline theory is pretty lame... Vee's game in itself didn't change that much pre- or post-2003...

Her mental game might have fluctuated or be affected by external events which probably made her game just a little less efficient perhaps but Maria wasn't even losing a set to her up until Miami 2007... so at some point I believe Vee is just not a good enough player for Maria at her best.

Vikapower
Dec 30th, 2011, 05:16 PM
You really know your stuff :worship:

Just watch the highlights... you clearly have someone who persistently shows the intentions to [...] - Maria, whilst the other just waits for opportunities to either counter the opponent or suffocate her (with footwork, defenses) so that she produces a forced or UE.

The point at 0:13 of the HL is an illustration of that... these are the perfect proprieties of counter-punching tennis you'll find into Jankovic etc... for example

brickhousesupporter
Dec 30th, 2011, 05:18 PM
Maria doesn't play varied game all the time because her back-court tennis overwhelms these other aspects of her game... Vee is incapable of playing varied tennis or even implement them effectively with her normal power game like Maria does.




This just shows me that Maria is dumb as fuck. Why would she not use those so called other aspects of her game, when she is losing. It seems to me that even she does not know the so called variety exist.

bandabou
Dec 30th, 2011, 05:24 PM
Like I said I didn't brought her name. What was I supposed to do? Erasing Serena's name of Sammy's post.

If you include her in the quote, then your reply applies to Serena too, no?!

So yeah, it'd have been smart of erasing Serena's name from the quote.

bandabou
Dec 30th, 2011, 05:29 PM
What's have that to do with anything ? :lol: Nice try... you're post-2003 decline theory is pretty lame... Vee's game in itself didn't change that much pre- or post-2003...

Her mental game might have fluctuated or be affected by external events which probably made her game just a little less efficient perhaps but Maria wasn't even losing a set to her up until Miami 2007... so at some point I believe Vee is just not a good enough player for Maria at her best.

So why isn't Masha winning majors anymore? Her game hasn't changed much either..your own words.

doomsday
Dec 30th, 2011, 05:38 PM
If you include her in the quote, then your reply applies to Serena too, no?!

So yeah, it'd have been smart of erasing Serena's name from the quote.

I can get your frustration when we take a shot at Serena but if you're frustrated even when her name isn't mentioned then you need help :lol:

bandabou
Dec 30th, 2011, 05:42 PM
I can get your frustration when we take a shot at Serena but if you're frustrated even when her name isn't mentioned then you need help :lol:

Her name was mentioned in the quote you replied too. So who were you refering too, then?! :confused:

Craig.
Dec 30th, 2011, 05:45 PM
Fake fan. :lol:

:crying2: I love you.

Vikapower
Dec 30th, 2011, 05:47 PM
So why isn't Masha winning majors anymore? Her game hasn't changed much either..your own words.

Maria always has had a complete game (see from Wimbledon 2004) -- why would she have needed to change it ?

She made the SF/F in RG/Wimbledon consecutively... I wouldn't be so concerned for Maria's chances of winning a major if I were you. :)

This just shows me that Maria is dumb as fuck. Why would she not use those so called other aspects of her game, when she is losing. It seems to me that even she does not know the so called variety exist.

Internal factors (emotions : vexation, frustration, fright...) influences a player's lucidity in the action of play so that often they do not come up with the good choices, this even happens to Maria...

Maria feels more secure with her A game even when she's losing... Venus she has no plan C, D or whichever... her only solution is to retrieve and rely on her natural athletic qualities but tennis wise or technically whichever she has nothing in her arsenal than power so she can not produce anything but that even when the situation does not require it.

She's not even able to take off a bit on her ground strokes FGS :confused: (See Pironkova versus Venus 2010, especially the 2nd. set)

new-york
Dec 30th, 2011, 05:48 PM
And besides, Maria got back to the Top 3 in the rankings this year, played a consistant season and reached a Slam final, while Venus since more than a year now is barely able to win a match, so your last argument doesn't make much sense to me. :shrug:
.

Barely able to play.
Last time Venus played a full schedule she got back to the n2 rank.

Anyways, this is not about Venus losing to pretenders left and right tarnishing her legacy with wild shots, it's about Venus at her peak who, and there is no denying that, is better than Maria at her peak on any surface.

bandabou
Dec 30th, 2011, 05:52 PM
Maria always has had a complete game (see from Wimbledon 2004) -- why would she have needed to change it ?

She made the SF/F in RG/Wimbledon consecutively... I wouldn't be so concerned for Maria's chances of winning a major if I were you. :)

:bigclap: :bounce: and then she lost tamely in straight sets in both matches. Yeah, real close of winning another major!

doomsday
Dec 30th, 2011, 05:52 PM
Her name was mentioned in the quote you replied too. So who were you refering too, then?! :confused:

Well, not Serena cause I believe Maria's wins over her were pretty convincing no matter what you say, they also happened in the most important stages of the tournaments.:wavey:

doomsday
Dec 30th, 2011, 05:55 PM
:bigclap: :bounce: and then she lost tamely in straight sets in both matches. Yeah, real close of winning another major!

Why are you acting like this? It's not because Serena lost very badly to Stosur in US final then suddenly noone will believe in her chances in the next USO. She was good enough to reach the final at least, same goes for Maria and they lost against a better player they weren't that far from the title so I can understand if some people believe in their chances.

Vikapower
Dec 30th, 2011, 05:58 PM
:bigclap: :bounce: and then she lost tamely in straight sets in both matches. Yeah, real close of winning another major!

And ? :lol: It was still a F which was still one step close to winning another major regardless of the manner she lost "tamely" (according to you) but to a player who always was the clear favorite of the tournament from her level of play.

The WS have not even been close to making a SF/F or F/F or F/SF in RG/Wimbledon consecutively the last few years, stay pressed. :D

bandabou
Dec 30th, 2011, 06:00 PM
Well, not Serena cause I believe Maria's wins over her were pretty convincing no matter what you say, they also happened in the most important stages of the tournaments.:wavey:

Of course..no one is disputing that. But that's like 7 years ago..unlike the other members of the group Sammy was talking about, against whom Masha has more resent victories.

Really, Serena has set those two losses sooooo straight..that I think that was it. What you say?

doomsday
Dec 30th, 2011, 06:06 PM
Of course..no one is disputing that. But that's like 7 years ago..unlike the other members of the group Sammy was talking about, against whom Masha has more resent victories.

Really, Serena has set those two losses sooooo straight..that I think that was it. What you say?

I just told you that it wasn't :lol: but yeah more recent victories over the others but not as impressive except against Henin cause she also defeated her in a major final and at the OZ 2008.

Yorker
Dec 30th, 2011, 06:07 PM
And ? :lol: It was still a F which was still one step close to winning another major regardless of the manner she lost "tamely" (according to you) but to a player who always was the clear favorite of the tournament from her level of play.

The WS have not even been close to making a SF/F or F/F or F/SF in RG/Wimbledon consecutively the last few years, stay pressed. :D

Uhh 2010 Serena Serena reached the quarters of Rg with matchpoints on Sammy then won wimbledon not sure how that isn't close, not too mention this is the first year since 2008 where Maria made a slam semi or more in two grand slams, but bombed in the other two.

dsanders06
Dec 30th, 2011, 06:15 PM
Venus just does everything better than Sharapova. Even tactically she's far superior.

:spit:

Tactics are neither player's strong point, but Maria still definitely has a higher on-court IQ than Venus. Plus as mentioned her groundstrokes at peak are imo more effective than peak Venus's on slow surfaces - her forehand is considerably better in every way, and her backhand while not as deadly on the first strike is more stable and has better consistent length.

I think it's insulting to even compare the two, never mind insinuate Pova is better. And all this talk about Pova being some slow-hardcourt goddess, getting trashed by Kuznetsova on slow outdoor hard ( AT HER PEAK!!!!!) hardly makes the argument credible that peak Venus or anyone else really would be out of Pova's league on slow hardcourt.

Yeah, the match that occurred a few days after she tore her rotator cuff. Really powerful argument :tape:

I CAN'T. :spit:

Maria has had TWO good years at the US Open. 1 W and 1 SF. She's made the 2nd week 3/8 times. Every other year she has gotten snatched by the first good player that she has faced. 2004 Pierce, Radwanska, Pennetta, Oudin. Venus has never lost a match there before the 4R, and her only two 4R losses came to peak Davenport in 2004 and Clijsters in 2009. Her only two QF losses came to peak Clijsters in 2005 and Serena in 2008. She made at least the semis for 6 consecutive years, and the only players that she has EVER lost to at the US Open are Serena, Hingis, Davenport, Henin, and Clijsters. It's pretty safe to say that Venus is MORE than several leagues ahead of Maria at the US Open. :tape: I'm not even trying to shade Maria, but come on... she's not even more accomplished than Kuznetsova in New York. :o

Is Maria more than several leagues ahead of Venus at the Australian Open then in your view? :)

Critique
Dec 30th, 2011, 06:15 PM
Sharapova does not have a varied game. She can't slice, can't play at net and has zero flare on the court. She can't even serve anymore which has detrimental effect on rest of her game. She'll be hard pressed to beat the best at the latter stages of slams in the future.

Vikapower
Dec 30th, 2011, 06:23 PM
Uhh 2010 Serena Serena reached the quarters of Rg with matchpoints on Sammy then won wimbledon not sure how that isn't close, not too mention this is the first year since 2008 where Maria made a slam semi or more in two grand slams, but bombed in the other two.

It still wasn't one of the 3 anyways... it took her 1.5/2 years to make a SF and she made it especially when everyone on GM was calling her done and over. :)

Next year, she'll progress again on her consistency (serve esp. and ground strokes) and undoubtedly be a force to reckon with in majors. The very same can not be said with Venus who even at Wimbledon which had been her safe-house for years is not anymore. We'll see...

:wavey:

Critique
Dec 30th, 2011, 06:28 PM
The very same can not be said with Venus who even at Wimbledon which had been her safe-house for years is not anymore. We'll see...

:wavey:

Ridiculous comparison. Venus Williams is pushing 32 and has the best of her tennis career behind her. Sharapova is in her heyday, yet manages to waste these vital years with horrible play against scrubs:o

brickhousesupporter
Dec 30th, 2011, 06:32 PM
Internal factors (emotions : vexation, frustration, fright...) influences a player's lucidity in the action of play so that often they do not come up with the good choices, this even happens to Maria...

Maria feels more secure with her A game even when she's losing... Venus she has no plan C, D or whichever... her only solution is to retrieve and rely on her natural athletic qualities but tennis wise or technically whichever she has nothing in her arsenal than power so she can not produce anything but that even when the situation does not require it.

She's not even able to take off a bit on her ground strokes FGS :confused: (See Pironkova versus Venus 2010, especially the 2nd. set)
If we never see Maria's variety, how do we know it exists. Should I just take your word on it?:lol:

doomsday
Dec 30th, 2011, 06:49 PM
If we never see Maria's variety, how do we know it exists. Should I just take your word on it?:lol:

Please

79ochunkSak

3eAb36h5Rbc

That confirms what Vikapower is saying, she does it mostly when she needs it and you could see her varying against Radwanska too, those are players who are forcing Maria to do more than ball bashing from the baseline.

brickhousesupporter
Dec 30th, 2011, 06:59 PM
Please

79ochunkSak

3eAb36h5Rbc

That confirms what Vikapower is saying, she does it mostly when she needs it and you could see her varying against Radwanska too, those are players who are forcing Maria to do more than ball bashing from the baseline.
Could you please point me to the ONE point in each match that you want to say demonstrates her use of variety. I don't have time to go through all the ballbashing.

rafaelkafka
Dec 30th, 2011, 06:59 PM
This needed to be pointed out by going back into the archives for that specific underrated aspect of Maria's game which in our opinion she does better than her compatriot. Maria has innumerable qualities : kindness, passion, devotion... talents too and in the one she outshines the best, tennis, there's something for which she never gets recognition. Venus, praised as she could have been or can be for that does not reach in our opinion the height or flight of that specific attribute between the bigger ladies.

"She's indeed at her very best a better [...] than Venus Williams" -- This statement is not bold it's more than reality when one ventures him/herself into the periods of Maria's brilliance... her footwork/movement is a fine piece of art but these are not the focus, just her defenses, how, what [...] she does in defensive situations is certainly.

The phrase then completes on it's own with the missing word to become as a whole "Maria at her very best defends better than Akgul Amanmuradova, Ana Ivanovic and [...]". It becomes inappropriate then to justify our claims with illustrations...



It then becomes convinient to establish Maria as one of the greatest thus most complete player to have ever played the WTA game. :)

(1)

zEgQTdjQOLI

Don't compare Masha with humans.

Vikapower
Dec 30th, 2011, 07:08 PM
Could you please point me to the ONE point in each match that you want to say demonstrates her use of variety. I don't have time to go through all the ballbashing.

:spit: Doomsday provided proof and in the Justine match especially the on in RG there are sufficient amount of points showing that Maria does have a very large technical palette.

This one too even if the outcomes aren't always positive due to the athletic skills of the opponent... but Maria is not only about power as strong as you'll try to fight it... she searches to transition forward, drop-shots etc...

2gscYEcatNE

Ridiculous comparison. Venus Williams is pushing 32 and has the best of her tennis career behind her. Sharapova is in her heyday, yet manages to waste these vital years with horrible play against scrubs:o

Venus at 24 didn't have better results than Maria at 24 -- AO 4th, RG 3rd and US QF. and only one title for the year Istanbul Cup (Tier III) and 2 F (Stanford and Anvers).

Maria SF and F in RG/Wimbledon, SF/F IW and Miami, 2 titles in Rome and Cincinnati... so the Venus age card. Thanks bye. :spit:

doomsday
Dec 30th, 2011, 07:16 PM
Could you please point me to the ONE point in each match that you want to say demonstrates her use of variety. I don't have time to go through all the ballbashing.

Now that you have the videos to see the variety you want me to point out that for you :lol: anyway 9:10, 9:40 in the first video and 10:35 in the second one. Using dropshots, serve and volley but it would be a lie to say that she is not winning most of her points because of her amazing groundies + serve but she can vary she does it when it's clearly needed.

doomsday
Dec 30th, 2011, 07:21 PM
:spit: Doomsday provided proof and in the Justine match especially the on in RG there are sufficient amount of points showing that Maria does have a very large technical palette.

This is exactly what Clijsters said after seeing that match in 2010. She said that back in 2005 Maria was trying to overpower everyone on every surface but that over the years Maria clearly learned to adjust her game to the surfaces, same thing just can't be said for Venus.

brickhousesupporter
Dec 30th, 2011, 07:27 PM
Now that you have the videos to see the variety you want me to point out that for you :lol: anyway 9:10, 9:40 in the first video and 10:35 in the second one. Using dropshots, serve and volley but it would be a lie to say that she is not winning most of her points because of her amazing groundies + serve but she can vary she does it when it's clearly needed.
I don't make it a habbit of watching Sharapova videos unless she is playing Serena. Sorry:lol:

Anyways just like I thought. One or two points in a match does not amount to variety or a strong technical pallette.

bandabou
Dec 30th, 2011, 07:33 PM
Why are you acting like this? It's not because Serena lost very badly to Stosur in US final then suddenly noone will believe in her chances in the next USO. She was good enough to reach the final at least, same goes for Maria and they lost against a better player they weren't that far from the title so I can understand if some people believe in their chances.

Of course...I do think there's some difference, but time will tell, no?! :lol:

bandabou
Dec 30th, 2011, 07:35 PM
And ? :lol: It was still a F which was still one step close to winning another major regardless of the manner she lost "tamely" (according to you) but to a player who always was the clear favorite of the tournament from her level of play.

The WS have not even been close to making a SF/F or F/F or F/SF in RG/Wimbledon consecutively the last few years, stay pressed. :D

Wow! Masha's amazing! :eek: Only took her 4 years, but..:lol:

doomsday
Dec 30th, 2011, 07:35 PM
I don't make it a habbit of watching Sharapova videos unless she is playing Serena. Sorry:lol:

Anyways just like I thought. One or two points in a match does not amount to variety or a strong technical pallette.

Don't be sorry I don't pay attention to Serena's matches either, even when she is playing Maria :lol: anyway that wasn't just one or two points you didn't even see those matches apparently and you just don't want to, probably cause you know you are wrong, she really demonstrate a strong technical palette in those matches and in many more and like I said even Clijsters said so after watching her match vs Henin.:)

bandabou
Dec 30th, 2011, 07:37 PM
I just told you that it wasn't :lol: but yeah more recent victories over the others but not as impressive except against Henin cause she also defeated her in a major final and at the OZ 2008.

Yep...so we're out.

brickhousesupporter
Dec 30th, 2011, 07:51 PM
Don't be sorry I don't pay attention to Serena's matches either, even when she is playing Maria :lol: anyway that wasn't just one or two points you didn't even see those matches apparently and you just don't want to, probably cause you know you are wrong, she really demonstrate a strong technical palette in those matches and in many more and like I said even Clijsters said so after watching her match vs Henin.:)
Again, you listed 3 points in two matches that each had well over 100 points, and you are trying to tell me that Maria has a great technical pallete.

Matt01
Dec 30th, 2011, 07:52 PM
Next year, she'll progress again on her consistency (serve esp. and ground strokes) and undoubtedly be a force to reckon with in majors.


Yeah, she will win the Golden Slam! :bounce:

doomsday
Dec 30th, 2011, 08:07 PM
Again, you listed 3 points in two matches that each had well over 100 points, and you are trying to tell me that Maria has a great technical pallete.

Geez, you asked me to show you few points and I did but if you don't believe me then feel free to watch the whole videos or the matches you will see that there are obviously more than 3 points, especially in the match at FO I remember last year thinking that Maria was using too many dropshots in that match especially in the second set but they were almost all winners and very well touched.