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Break My Rapture
Dec 22nd, 2011, 12:47 PM
I'm curious about this, they sadly never got to play before Henin retired. I feel like the consistent depth on Azarenka's shots would be able to pin Henin back behind the baseline just enough, to prevent her from taking charge of the rallies and that Azarenka's return would put a lot of pressure on Henin's wonky serve. Azarenka would of course struggle on her own service games, but I think she is able to place her second serve well enough into the Henin BH which is Henin's weaker return stroke, much like she does to the Ivanovic BH to prevent Anci's hyperagressive FH return.

Comparing the parts of their game...
FH: Henin
BH: equal, perhaps the edge for Azarenka as she is not limited in her return like Henin is because of her one-handedness (and height).
Serve: Peak Henin defo has the better serve, but in her last years her serve was extremely inconsistent so I would say they're mostly equal on a consistent basis.
Netplay: Henin is notorious for her good volleys so I would give the edge to her, but Azarenka is very underrated when it comes to her net skills.
Defense: Henin, her BH slice from a defensive position is extremely effective against player like Sharapova, who Azarenka is oftenly compared to as a weaker version. That said, Azarenka is way better at dealing this sort of junk than Sharapova thanks to her better movement and footwork (see Pova's and Aza's match against Stosur in YEC, Pova struggled immensely with her new BH slice while Azarenka cleaned up on them).

I would say Azarenka would be able to snatch one or maybe a couple of wins from her, similarly to her H2H with Clijsters, but in the end Henin would win most matches between the two of them. Thoughts? I really wanted this match to happen. :o

danieln1
Dec 22nd, 2011, 12:50 PM
I think it would be like the Jankovic H2H, Jelena played some amazing matches against Justine, but in the end, Henin won them all.

Emina.
Dec 22nd, 2011, 12:53 PM
like Maria :shrug:

Apoleb
Dec 22nd, 2011, 12:54 PM
BH: equal, perhaps the edge for Azarenka as she is not limited in her return like Henin is because of her one-handedness (and height).


That's just not true. I guess you haven't seen Justine killing Maria and Serena's second serve with her one hand backhand when she's really feeling the ball. And PID doesn't have anything near those serves.

Anyway, this is a no-brainer. Justine will clean the court with her. Azarenka is a sad caricature of Maria, and has NOTHING to hurt Justine.

I think it would be like the Jankovic H2H,

Not even. JJ had the athleticism to defend very well and stay in the rallies. Azarenka is a pretty horrendous athlete, I'd say. No chance once she's a little late to the ball.

Overall, this is a pretty bad matchup for her.

Break My Rapture
Dec 22nd, 2011, 01:01 PM
That's just not true. I guess you haven't seen Justine killing Maria and Serena's second serve with her one hand backhand when she's really feeling the ball. And PID doesn't have anything near those serves.

Anyway, this is a no-brainer. Justine will clean the court with her. Azarenka is a sad caricature of Maria, and has NOTHING to hurt Justine.
I'm not saying she isn't able to kill second serves, the thing is second serves (which are usually more brushed with topspin) jump up higher which makes it tougher for Henin to get her timing right on the one-handed BH. For example Federer has the exact same problem when he's playing Nadal, his topspin-oozing strokes are constantly aimed towards the Federer BH to draw the error. Not only that, Henin's height makes this even tougher. The fact that Henin is able to kill second serves like Peak Rena's and Peak Pova's is very impressive and speaks volumes about her talent. All I'm saying is that it makes it tougher for her, which could result in a lot of errors on a bay day so I don't think it's entirely impossible for Azarenka to snatch a W.

Steven.
Dec 22nd, 2011, 01:02 PM
like Maria :shrug:

wut. Just cuz dese 2 grunt real loud duz not mean they have the same game lul. Sharapova had a serve, bigger groundies and likes to end points early. Azarenka has technically unsound serve and likes to grind more.

Apoleb
Dec 22nd, 2011, 01:08 PM
I'm not saying she isn't able to kill second serves, the thing is second serves (which are usually more brushed with topspin) jump up higher which makes it tougher for Henin to get her timing right on the one-handed BH. For example Federer has the exact same problem when he's playing Nadal, his topspin-oozing strokes are constantly aimed towards the Federer BH to draw the error. Not only that, Henin's height makes this even tougher. The fact that Henin is able to kill second serves like Peak Rena's and Peak Pova's is very impressive and speaks volumes about her talent. All I'm saying is that it makes it tougher for her, which could result in a lot of errors on a bay day so I don't think it's entirely impossible for Azarenka to snatch a W.

I just don't see how that could be problematic with Azarenka's serve. Does she even have a kick serve to speak of? IMO, even Shittine will probably manage to win like 64 75. An on form Henin should be able to get in there 64 63 quite comfortably. Azarenka just doesn't have anything to kill off a point against her.

Break My Rapture
Dec 22nd, 2011, 01:18 PM
I just don't see how that could be problematic with Azarenka's serve. Does she even have a kick serve to speak of? IMO, even Shittine will probably manage to win like 64 75. An on form Henin should be able to get in there 64 63 quite comfortably. Azarenka just doesn't have anything to kill off a point against her.
You do have a point, back in 2009 people were saying Azarenka's second serve was better than her first serve. I do think she can inject some topspin on her second serve but not nearly as much and effective as Serena or Peak Martha. So yeah, you are right that handling Azarenka's serve wouldn't be that problematic. I agree with the scores you listed there, I think they would have a lot of close matches actually. Just that Henin would come out on top like 80% of the time.

eck
Dec 22nd, 2011, 01:20 PM
Shittine :hysteric:

moby
Dec 22nd, 2011, 01:29 PM
Justine would win 3 and 3. If Justine is off or Vika competes like she did against Serena in the second set of the USO this year, she might be able to sneak a set.

Justine is arguably the most dynamic player on the women's side in recent tennis history. She would absolutely kill Vika. Zvonereva is the closest approximation in my mind.

thrust
Dec 22nd, 2011, 01:32 PM
Shittine :hysteric:

Is your comment as stupid as it looks, or are you kidding? Whatever, Justine would rarely lose to Azarenka, if ever.

Apoleb
Dec 22nd, 2011, 01:34 PM
I think they would have a lot of close matches actually. Just that Henin would come out on top like 80% of the time.

Justine very rarely puts in demolition jobs, just because of the nature of her game (it takes a lot out of her for her to able to consistently get on top of the ball), and she'll turn it when it matters the most. So that is hardly complimentary for Vika. :p And the thing is even a Justine that is only hurrying and scurrying might able to get away with the win, because Azarenka doesn't get any free points to speak of, especially when she has to face such a good defender (and don't forget, Justine at her very worst never loses her defense).

Lucemferre
Dec 22nd, 2011, 01:44 PM
Henin would wipe the floor with Azarenka. Vika would be one of her 'rivals' with a 1-6 record or something.

StoneRose
Dec 22nd, 2011, 01:47 PM
Some matches would be close but peak Henin would win almost all of them. At this point in her career Vika is not strong enough (yet) to contend consistently with the absolute top.

sammy01
Dec 22nd, 2011, 01:47 PM
please don't compare their 2 backhands as equal or give the edge to vika, it is insulting! henin could actually slice and had amazing angles with it as well as rip it DTL (i cant recall vika ever hitting hers DTL ever).

there is no part of the game vika comes close to henin in and if you think vika is a competitor then you should watch old henin vids when she gets the bit between her teeth.

marineblue
Dec 22nd, 2011, 01:48 PM
She'd not take a set off Justine.

tennisbear7
Dec 22nd, 2011, 01:53 PM
Just no.

Ryan
Dec 22nd, 2011, 02:03 PM
:facepalm: I think Justine is overrated by many on the Forum, but she'd kill Vika. She doesn't have enough weapons to overpower Henin, enough finess/net game/flair to outmanoeuvre her, or enough defence to induce errors.

miffedmax
Dec 22nd, 2011, 02:21 PM
Frankly, I'm glad this matchup never happened.

Lena's bangs.

Mistress of Evil
Dec 22nd, 2011, 02:37 PM
Azarenka will not win a single setmatch. :shrug: She is a ball-basher wannabe and does not posses the power to hit through Herpes who will tear the poor fragile thing to pieces. :awww:

Vikapower
Dec 22nd, 2011, 02:57 PM
I think it would be like the Jankovic H2H, Jelena played some amazing matches against Justine, but in the end, Henin won them all.

200% this. You know which match in ATP this would recall me ? Federer versus Söderling, Victoria is the closest player to the Swedish in the ATP tennis... and we all know "I don't lose 13 times..."-stuff.

Victoria doesn't have half of the power of Maria who has a negative H2H to Justine to preface... this would be a massacre, multiple massacres in the start then perhaps Victoria makes evolution in her game to make things closer.

Regarding Victoria's serve, I don't know her speeds for 2009, but her average for example of 153.69 km/h in majors in 2011 on first, even passing high quantities 60 to 70% in average is big no, no -- the risks she took with her serve in 2011, 76 aces and 173 DFs (even Maria did better in 2011) that's far, very far, way too far, light-miles... the first shot in tennis is serve <--> return.

:shrug: A case can be made for 2009 Vika who was going for her shots from the back court way more than she is doing since then (see winners/UEs ratios) but her relative medium pace power no, no... already it doesn't pass every time average moving bigger hitters how would it pass against one who moves even faster ?

The Justine Victoria H2H would be something like 2-17 or so -- :zzz: No thanks. Vika. :hug:

Viktymise
Dec 22nd, 2011, 03:01 PM
Horrendously. Henin is/was better at absolutely everything.

vozas
Dec 22nd, 2011, 03:09 PM
please don't compare their 2 backhands as equal or give the edge to vika, it is insulting! henin could actually slice and had amazing angles with it as well as rip it DTL (i cant recall vika ever hitting hers DTL ever).

there is no part of the game vika comes close to henin in and if you think vika is a competitor then you should watch old henin vids when she gets the bit between her teeth.

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Have you even watched her play? Like, ever?

Handnin would dominate their H2H but Victoria would definitely sneak some wins here and there. TBPF I'm pretty sure she would've beaten Handnin in the 2010 AO final had she kept the momentum going during that QF against Jameka.

miffedmax
Dec 22nd, 2011, 03:30 PM
please don't compare their 2 backhands as equal or give the edge to vika, it is insulting! henin could actually slice and had amazing angles with it as well as rip it DTL (i cant recall vika ever hitting hers DTL ever).

there is no part of the game vika comes close to henin in and if you think vika is a competitor then you should watch old henin vids when she gets the bit between her teeth.

You seem to have confused her with another tall, blonde, serveless chick I am fond of.

(Hint: That one used to have the cutest bangs...)

bobito
Dec 22nd, 2011, 03:32 PM
Comparing the parts of their game...
FH: Henin

Good start :yeah:

BH: equal, perhaps the edge for Azarenka as she is not limited in her return like Henin is because of her one-handedness (and height).

Nope, not even close. Henin had more power, much more spin (both topspin and slice) and great disguise. Azarenka has a good backhand, Henin had possibly the best in the history of the women's game.

Serve: Peak Henin defo has the better serve, but in her last years her serve was extremely inconsistent so I would say they're mostly equal on a consistent basis.

In her prime Henin had a great 2nd serve. Missed a few admittedly but that was because she was so aggressive with it. Not as good after the comeback though I'll grant you.

Netplay: Henin is notorious for her good volleys so I would give the edge to her, but Azarenka is very underrated when it comes to her net skills.

Again, not even close. Henin was superb at the net and made good use of it.

Defense: Henin, her BH slice from a defensive position is extremely effective against player like Sharapova, who Azarenka is oftenly compared to as a weaker version. That said, Azarenka is way better at dealing this sort of junk than Sharapova thanks to her better movement and footwork (see Pova's and Aza's match against Stosur in YEC, Pova struggled immensely with her new BH slice while Azarenka cleaned up on them).

Henin was quicker, had better tactical nous and was much better at turning defence into attack.

Against the 2009 version of Henin, Azarenka would have been more competative and might have caught Justine on an off day. Against the 2003-2007 version (peak v peak), not a prayer.

dsanders06
Dec 22nd, 2011, 04:18 PM
I just don't see how that could be problematic with Azarenka's serve. Does she even have a kick serve to speak of? IMO, even Shittine will probably manage to win like 64 75. An on form Henin should be able to get in there 64 63 quite comfortably. Azarenka just doesn't have anything to kill off a point against her.

This. And on all surfaces. Azarenka isn't better in any department of the game.

Jane Lane
Dec 22nd, 2011, 04:24 PM
Some matches would be close but peak Henin would win almost all of them. At this point in her career Vika is not strong enough (yet) to contend consistently with the absolute top.

Agree with this. I could see Vika sneaking out a win somewhere.

I actually always wanted to see them play admittedly :lol: The player who drew me in to loving tennis against the player who took the spot of my favorite now that she's gone.

Apoleb
Dec 22nd, 2011, 04:30 PM
This. And on all surfaces. Azarenka isn't better in any department of the game.

The only chance Azarenka has in on grass. Ironically she would outgrind a Henin who isn't playing particularly well, because her groundstrokes aren't very dependable on grass, and she'd need to finish the point very quickly (which she also can't do as well as she does on HC).

debby
Dec 22nd, 2011, 04:50 PM
Agree with this. I could see Vika sneaking out a win somewhere.

I actually always wanted to see them play admittedly :lol: The player who drew me in to loving tennis against the player who took the spot of my favorite now that she's gone.

100% this.

moby
Dec 22nd, 2011, 05:04 PM
Against the 2009 version of Henin, Azarenka would have been more competative and might have caught Justine on an off day. This sums up the match-up. :sobbing:

We can now close the thread.

n1_and_uh_noone
Dec 22nd, 2011, 05:22 PM
Azarenka's first serve is practically a second serve, so Justine would whip her in her service games. Justine always defended her serve very well (as Justine 1.0 anyway), given how often her serve %s were in the 40s-50s most of the time. Azarenka loves pace (but not too much) and Justine's slices would do enough to move even defensive rallies to at least neutral. Sharapova could possibly hit lasers from out of nowhere which Azarenka cannot do.

In short, it would be a dire match-up for Az. Those crosscourt backhands were a favorite pattern of Justine's too, and she would actually exploit her angles to finish points off in the forecourt. The only shot Az would have is to hit every backhand down the line deep and skidding and rush Justine's forehand into error. She would lose every forehand battle, even if Justine's forehand broke down.

Stevecw
Dec 22nd, 2011, 05:25 PM
Henin would wipe the floor with Azarenka. Vika would be one of her 'rivals' with a 1-6 record or something.

Something like this I reckon. And Vika would be lucky to even get that 1 win.

Smitten
Dec 22nd, 2011, 05:44 PM
Justine's return of serve is way too aggressive for Azarenka.

For the people that say Azarenka could get a win or two, I don't understand how. What surface? How would she do it?

Justine has handled far greater power, far better serving, far better defense, far better variety.

Azarenka takes too long to win points and can easily be nullified by a slice.
Her dropshot defense is horrible. Clijsters exploited this in the YEC RR match one year, Justine would do more of the same.
As I said before, Justine returns very aggressively.
Azarenka doesn't have the moment to track down the angles and shots from Justine especially when she comes in behind it.


The only way I could see Azarenka even taking a set is if Justine serves like 30% (possible) and Azarenka is really feeling her return and putting it right on the baseline time and time again.

ToopsTame
Dec 22nd, 2011, 06:00 PM
Those fluke results against Serena have gone to Vika's fans' heads. Vika/Woz/Radwanska/Petkovic type players are nowhere near the elite players of the last generation. Against Serena/Venus/Justine/Kim/Amelie/Martina/Lindsay/Maria of the last decade, the likes of Azarenka would lose at least 8 out of every 10 matches. No offence but you can't compare all time greats to transitional period filler.

Smitten
Dec 22nd, 2011, 06:01 PM
Results? Azarenka only has one win against a Serena with very little resistance. :lol:

Jane Lane
Dec 22nd, 2011, 06:07 PM
Those fluke results against Serena have gone to Vika's fans' heads. Vika/Woz/Radwanska/Petkovic type players are nowhere near the elite players of the last generation. Against Serena/Venus/Justine/Kim/Amelie/Martina/Lindsay/Maria of the last decade, the likes of Azarenka would lose at least 8 out of every 10 matches. No offence but you can't compare all time greats to transitional period filler.

Maria? :haha: Considering their H2H is tied at 3-3 I wouldn't go that far. She's also 2-0 against Amelie. Sure that was near the end of Amelie's career in 08-09 but that's not Vika's fault and she was still relevant to an extent. She beat Hingis the only time they played at USO 07.

It's a perfectly relevant question.

Smitten
Dec 22nd, 2011, 06:10 PM
Azarenka would probably be able to beat Bagelie on a hardcourt back then.

Clay and grass she would get her face handed to her. She can't do anything against the junkball, pushing, moonballing hybrid no-pace stuff of vintage Bagelie there.

She has sufficient depth and length to just punish Bagelie's FH until the ball drops at the service line(should only take 2-3 shots) to dictate the points.

Jane Lane
Dec 22nd, 2011, 06:14 PM
Azarenka would probably be able to beat Bagelie on a hardcourt back then.

Clay and grass she would get her face handed to her. She can't do anything against the junkball, pushing, moonballing hybrid no-pace stuff of vintage Bagelie there.

She has sufficient depth and length to just punish Bagelie's FH until the ball drops at the service line(should only take 2-3 shots) to dictate the points.

I could see Vika potentially giving Amelie a tough match at RG, considering it's well, Amelie at RG where she in her career lost to Grönefeld in 09, Suarez Navarro in 08, Safarova in 07 and Vaidisova in 06. None of which, aside from Suarez Navarro, are typical clay courters.

doomsday
Dec 22nd, 2011, 06:18 PM
Maria? :haha: Considering their H2H is tied at 3-3 I wouldn't go that far. She's also 2-0 against Amelie. Sure that was near the end of Amelie's career in 08-09 but that's not Vika's fault and she was still relevant to an extent. She beat Hingis the only time they played at USO 07.

It's a perfectly relevant question.

What's so funny about Sharapova? Vika is lucky to have to play against Maria 2.0 actually Maria 2.0 got 2 wins over Vika while she was ranked out of top 20 and Vika was still in the top 10.
Anyway to answer to this thread, Vika has absolutely nothing to hurt Henin, everything has been said. Henin would have won pretty much every meeting.

Jane Lane
Dec 22nd, 2011, 06:18 PM
What's so funny about Sharapova? Vika is lucky to have to play against Maria 2.0 actually Maria 2.0 got 2 wins over Vika while she was ranked out of top 20 and Vika was still in the top 10.
Anyway to answer to this thread, Vika has absolutely nothing to hurt Henin, everything has been said. Henin would have won pretty much every meeting.

The fact that you're grouping Maria with Venus, Serena and Henin to start with. Hell, even with Davenport and Hingis.

Smitten
Dec 22nd, 2011, 06:22 PM
I remember when Azarenka beat Sharapova in Moscow hitting only 9 winners.

doomsday
Dec 22nd, 2011, 06:26 PM
The fact that you're grouping Maria with Venus, Serena and Henin to start with. Hell, even with Davenport and Hingis.

First, I'm not grouping Maria with any of these players but since you mentioned it, Maria was still in this circle back in 2004/08 fighting with the better players in majors but sure she is not ahead any of them and not even tied either but she is certainly above Azarenka in every way too.

doomsday
Dec 22nd, 2011, 06:27 PM
I remember when Azarenka beat Sharapova in Moscow hitting only 9 winners.

Sharapova in choke mode, she lead 5-3 40:0 before throwing the match away, another Maria fiasco in Russia tell me sth that I don't know.

ToopsTame
Dec 22nd, 2011, 06:37 PM
Maria? :haha: Considering their H2H is tied at 3-3 I wouldn't go that far. She's also 2-0 against Amelie. Sure that was near the end of Amelie's career in 08-09 but that's not Vika's fault and she was still relevant to an extent. She beat Hingis the only time they played at USO 07.

It's a perfectly relevant question.

It's a question with an easy answer. Azarenka would not have matched up well at all. I included Amelie to demonstrate how even the second tier elite players of the last generation were superior to the likes of Vika.

I could see Vika potentially giving Amelie a tough match at RG, considering it's well, Amelie at RG where she in her career lost to Grönefeld in 09, Suarez Navarro in 08, Safarova in 07 and Vaidisova in 06. None of which, aside from Suarez Navarro, are typical clay courters.

Using evidence from Amelie's last zombie year and her RG performances where she could lose to anyone (Jana Kandarr anyone?) doesn't help your case. She had the variety to cut through Vika's monotonous game and would have won most of the matches.

The fact that you're grouping Maria with Venus, Serena and Henin to start with. Hell, even with Davenport and Hingis.
Irrelevant. Maria pre-shoulder fuck-up did everything better than Vika. She was behind Serena/Venus/Justine for much of the last decade but she would have still schooled Vika on every surface.

sammy01
Dec 22nd, 2011, 06:40 PM
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Have you even watched her play? Like, ever?

Handnin would dominate their H2H but Victoria would definitely sneak some wins here and there. TBPF I'm pretty sure she would've beaten Handnin in the 2010 AO final had she kept the momentum going during that QF against Jameka.

You seem to have confused her with another tall, blonde, serveless chick I am fond of.

(Hint: That one used to have the cutest bangs...)

have you 2 warched vika recently, she hits everything crosscourt, honestly like 95% of her shots go crosscourt now. she only hits down the line when firmly inside the court and she has an opening. she has become the ultimate percentage player in terms of risk on her shots. it has made her a lot more consistent, hence the ranking rise.

dsanders06
Dec 22nd, 2011, 07:26 PM
I remember when Azarenka beat Sharapova in Moscow hitting only 9 winners.

Yup, the myth on here that Azarenka is a tough match-up for Maria because she "outhits" her amuses me :lol: All her wins over Maria have come mainly from her playing good defence against her, with the possible exception of their Stanford match to some extent.

Break My Rapture
Dec 22nd, 2011, 07:55 PM
Yup, the myth on here that Azarenka is a tough match-up for Maria because she "outhits" her amuses me :lol: All her wins over Maria have come mainly from her playing good defence against her, with the possible exception of their Stanford match to some extent.
She was hardly playing solely good defence against Pova in the Miami final. 19 winners in a 17 game match really don't add up with your statement. And she was actually outhitting Pova in Stanford.

Ryan
Dec 22nd, 2011, 08:14 PM
She was hardly playing solely good defence against Pova in the Miami final. 19 winners in a 17 game match really don't add up with your statement. And she was actually outhitting Pova in Stanford.


Reduced to talking up Vika against post-surgery Maria? Wasn't this about Henin? ;)

Matt01
Dec 22nd, 2011, 08:23 PM
She was hardly playing solely good defence against Pova in the Miami final. 19 winners in a 17 game match really don't add up with your statement. And she was actually outhitting Pova in Stanford.


This is true.

ToopsTame
Dec 22nd, 2011, 08:24 PM
She was hardly playing solely good defence against Pova in the Miami final. 19 winners in a 17 game match really don't add up with your statement. And she was actually outhitting Pova in Stanford.

LOL, it's impossible to argue with you. You only see what you want to see. :help:

9WPaDG6JWx8

doomsday
Dec 22nd, 2011, 08:32 PM
LOL, it's impossible to argue with you. You only see what you want to see. :help:

9WPaDG6JWx8

He is a Vika fan so he is biased.

Matt01
Dec 22nd, 2011, 08:47 PM
He is a Vika fan so he is biased.


And you are a Pova fan so you are not biased?

doomsday
Dec 22nd, 2011, 09:01 PM
And you are a Pova fan so you are not biased?

I didn't say anything about this meeting I know Vika played pretty well but she wasn't outhitting Maria, there were moments where she was using Maria's pace unbelievably well anyway I do remember that Maria was really tired in that final(she got screwed by the schedule) and was hardly hitting that hard.

Break My Rapture
Dec 22nd, 2011, 09:02 PM
Reduced to talking up Vika against post-surgery Maria? Wasn't this about Henin? ;)
What's your point? I acknowledged Henin would win in straight sets most of the times, if not everytime, they would meet about 3 times in this thread. Read the thread first before foolishly thinking I'm backtracking.

I'm just so sick of some of these stuck-up Maria fans who can't seem to live with the fact that Azarenka is ranked higher and won more tournaments this year or whatever their problem is. Most notably, a lot of them started craptalking her after the Miami final. :lol: It's irritating me limitlessly.

Matt01
Dec 22nd, 2011, 09:06 PM
I didn't say anything about this meeting I know Vika played pretty well but she wasn't outhitting Maria, there were moments where she was using Maria's pace unbelievably well anyway I do remember that Maria was really tired in that final(she got screwed by the schedule) and was hardly hitting that hard.


:yawn:

doomsday
Dec 22nd, 2011, 09:10 PM
What's your point? I acknowledged Henin would win in straight sets most of the times, if not everytime, they would meet about 3 times in this thread. Read the thread first before foolishly thinking I'm backtracking.

I'm just so sick of some of these stuck-up Maria fans who can't seem to live with the fact that Azarenka is ranked higher and won more tournaments this year or whatever their problem is. Most notably, a lot of them started craptalking her after the Miami final. :lol: It's irritating me limitlessly.

:lol: get off your high horses, Azarenka's career is non existent compared to Maria's one. We are just stating facts she is not outhitting her in their meetings.

Break My Rapture
Dec 22nd, 2011, 09:17 PM
:lol: get off your high horses, Azarenka's career is non existent compared to Maria's one. We are just stating facts she is not outhitting her in their meetings.
You're imagining things. No one said Azarenka's career is better than Sharapova's.
FACTS? :haha: Some of you are just ridiculious. Next thing I'll be called out for not being a Pova fan because I don't worship every inch her smallest toe moves. I'm so done with this.

Jane Lane
Dec 22nd, 2011, 09:18 PM
:lol: get off your high horses, Azarenka's career is non existent compared to Maria's one.

The fuck no one said that? :shrug:

doomsday
Dec 22nd, 2011, 09:32 PM
You're imagining things. No one said Azarenka's career is better than Sharapova's.
FACTS? :haha: Some of you are just ridiculious. Next thing I'll be called out for not being a Pova fan because I don't worship every inch her smallest toe moves. I'm so done with this.

Then why are you arguing about their rankings? Or the numbers of tournaments Vika won this year? We're not upset about Azarenka at all if arguing over match makes us ridiculous then so be it.

Knizzle
Dec 22nd, 2011, 09:33 PM
I think it would be like the Jankovic H2H, Jelena played some amazing matches against Justine, but in the end, Henin won them all.
This is what I thought first too, but I think Aza would win a few times because she has significantly more power than Janko.

Break My Rapture
Dec 22nd, 2011, 09:36 PM
Then why are you arguing about their rankings? Or the numbers of tournaments Vika won this year? We're not upset about Azarenka at all if arguing over match makes us ridiculous then so be it.
Arguing? :help: Stop nitpicking, I gave rankings or titles as a mere random example of NO importance as to why Sharapova fans like yourself always act so butthurt when it comes to Azarenka.
Y'all act as if saying Azarenka played better on the day means that she has more Slams than Sharapova.
As I said before, I'm absolutely done with this. Keep it about Henin and Azarenka.

doomsday
Dec 22nd, 2011, 09:49 PM
Arguing? :help: Stop nitpicking, I gave rankings or titles as a mere random example of NO importance as to why Sharapova fans like yourself always act so butthurt when it comes to Azarenka.
Y'all act as if saying Azarenka played better on the day means that she has more Slams than Sharapova.
As I said before, I'm absolutely done with this. Keep it about Henin and Azarenka.

I do act this way when it comes to Azarenka :lol: simply not true I actually like her game, a poor version of Sharapova but still her game is pretty interesting and yep this thread is about Azarenka and Henin yet you included Maria in your very first post and tried to compare Maria's tennis to Vika's one while there are clearly no comparisons between the two of them, and as if it wasn't enough you choose a match where Maria was injured just to make Azarenka look better.
Maria had to deal with better slices than Stosur's one in her career (Henin, Mauresmo) and she did pretty well against them especially at her best, picking one match where Maria was barely moving and spraying like crazy, seriously ? You can do better than that.

madmax
Dec 22nd, 2011, 10:11 PM
I actually liked Vika in her early days, when she was going for much more on her shots and her game was based on offensive shots rather than consistent grinding. Current Vika plays too monotonous and safe for my liking, drawing inevitable comparisons to her BFF World #1 from Denmark. I think it's also fair to say that her current game would spell little to no trouble for Henin and her all-arround repertoire of shots

doomsday
Dec 22nd, 2011, 10:30 PM
I actually liked Vika in her early days, when she was going for much more on her shots and her game was based on offensive shots rather than consistent grinding. Current Vika plays too monotonous and safe for my liking, drawing inevitable comparisons to her BFF World #1 from Denmark. I think it's also fair to say that her current game would spell little to no trouble for Henin and her all-arround repertoire of shots

Her SF over Zvonareva in YEC was a nightmare, she hit sth like 5 winners in 17 games :lol: but she regrouped pretty well against Kvitova she obviously knows that grinding is not enough against the likes of Kvitova, Serena but yeah if she always end up losing it's obviously because sth is wrong, when it matters she put herself on the defensive and is waiting errors and that serve is still really weak and very attackable that tennis is not going to give her majors titles.

dsanders06
Dec 22nd, 2011, 10:41 PM
She was hardly playing solely good defence against Pova in the Miami final. 19 winners in a 17 game match really don't add up with your statement. And she was actually outhitting Pova in Stanford.

Didn't Maria actually hit a few more winners than Azarenka in the Miami match? Which speaks volumes in a match where she got spanked 6-1 6-4 :lol: And in the Rome match, Maria had outwinnered her by something like 2:1 by the end of play. Azarenka is a tough match-up for her, because she's a better defensive player than she is and can use her return to put pressure on Maria's serve. But in terms of level of aggressive game, she's not close to even current Maria's level (let alone vintage Maria).

freeandlonely
Dec 22nd, 2011, 10:42 PM
Ask Henin back to WTA, please.

blumaroo
Dec 23rd, 2011, 12:05 AM
She wouldn't have a chance. Not enough power and not enough junk/spin. Wozniacki is much tougher for Henin, at least she would make it a physical match.
I'd say a match between Vika and Henin would most likely be similar to Zvonareva - Henin matches.

Sammo
Dec 23rd, 2011, 12:10 AM
http://giveafuckometer.com/gafom.gif

Dominika23
Dec 23rd, 2011, 12:25 AM
She wouldn't have a chance. Not enough power and not enough junk/spin. Wozniacki is much tougher for Henin, at least she would make it a physical match.
I'd say a match between Vika and Henin would most likely be similar to Zvonareva - Henin matches.

I Agree I think Vika will be able to get couple wins over Henin but the H2H will be like Zvonareva, Maria, and JJ
Close matches but Henin will win them. I agree with you with Wozniacki as well I think Caro is a tougher Challenge for Henin than Vika. Caro give Henin a challenge in miami I think, I think by Caro able to get so many ball back in play it get to Henin, But Henin will be the Favor for that H2H as well.

Dominika23
Dec 23rd, 2011, 12:26 AM
I wonder how My Girl Aggie will do against Henin

ExtremespeedX
Dec 23rd, 2011, 12:34 AM
All I know is that in their matches, holding serve would be more rare than breaking :facepalm:

Miss Atomic Bomb
Dec 23rd, 2011, 12:36 AM
She will fight and shriek but she is thoroughly outmatched.

http://i39.tinypic.com/2vjyluf.jpg

Dominic
Dec 23rd, 2011, 01:59 AM
Not so well

bandabou
Dec 23rd, 2011, 06:57 AM
Not so well I think...Vika is just a rythm player and Juju would take all rythm from the match and that's it. Vika doesn't have any real big weapon that she can hurt Juju with.

Vika vs Sharapova is different. Sharapova is more of a consistent pressure with deep groundstrokes..so you CAN get in a rythm, if you can handle the pace.

duhcity
Dec 23rd, 2011, 07:36 AM
Post 2008, close but definitely Henin H2H, like 7-5

Smitten
Dec 23rd, 2011, 08:24 AM
Post 2008, close but definitely Henin H2H, like 7-5

What a bad joke.

eck
Dec 23rd, 2011, 08:28 AM
Is your comment as stupid as it looks, or are you kidding? Whatever, Justine would rarely lose to Azarenka, if ever.

I was referring to Apoleb's post. :o

thegreendestiny
Dec 23rd, 2011, 09:10 AM
An uninspired Henin would still win against peak Pretenderenka.

doomsday
Dec 23rd, 2011, 09:11 AM
I Agree I think Vika will be able to get couple wins over Henin but the H2H will be like Zvonareva, Maria, and JJ
Close matches but Henin will win them. I agree with you with Wozniacki as well I think Caro is a tougher Challenge for Henin than Vika. Caro give Henin a challenge in miami I think, I think by Caro able to get so many ball back in play it get to Henin, But Henin will be the Favor for that H2H as well.

Cause you see sth similar between 7-3 and 11-0 and 6-0 :lol:

bandabou
Dec 23rd, 2011, 09:56 AM
Cause you see sth similar between 7-3 and 11-0 and 6-0 :lol:

:lol: Yayyyyy, Masha's GOAT! :bounce:

doomsday
Dec 23rd, 2011, 10:02 AM
:lol: Yayyyyy, Masha's GOAT! :bounce:

Not everyone was able to beat Henin 3 times during her peak if you know what I mean.:lol:

Viktymise
Dec 23rd, 2011, 10:05 AM
This is what I thought first too, but I think Aza would win a few times because she has significantly more power than Janko.

Significantly? Azarenka wishes.

Break My Rapture
Dec 23rd, 2011, 10:14 AM
She will fight and shriek but she is thoroughly outmatched.

http://i39.tinypic.com/2vjyluf.jpg
:lol:

Matt01
Dec 23rd, 2011, 10:20 AM
Not everyone was able to beat Henin 3 times during her peak if you know what I mean.:lol:


What? :confused: :lol:

Fighterpova
Dec 23rd, 2011, 10:26 AM
8-1 for Henin.

Most of Justine's wins would look like 6-2 6-3 :lol:

Vika would get her only win in Miami :p

Henin is a much,much,much more versatile and superior player :shrug:

doomsday
Dec 23rd, 2011, 10:34 AM
What? :confused: :lol:

Banbadou know what I meant.

bandabou
Dec 23rd, 2011, 11:36 AM
Not everyone was able to beat Henin 3 times during her peak if you know what I mean.:lol:

;) And Masha hasn't been able to beat that person who 'couldn't' beat peak Juju, in years and that's still counting.
In fact Masha has more wins over peak Juju than she has against the ' can't beat Juju'- person for her whole career! :eek: Clearly shows that this person is greater than BOTH Juju AND Masha. ;)

Reptilia
Dec 23rd, 2011, 11:42 AM
Azarenka fans :tape:

moby
Dec 28th, 2012, 06:32 AM
One year and one slam on for Vika, the result of this match-up is still NID.

JarkaFish
Dec 28th, 2012, 06:48 AM
Henin wins 8 or 9 times out of 10.

That's probably being optimistic on Azarenka's behalf.

bobito
Dec 28th, 2012, 06:48 AM
please don't compare their 2 backhands as equal or give the edge to vika, it is insulting! henin could actually slice and had amazing angles with it as well as rip it DTL (i cant recall vika ever hitting hers DTL ever).

People forget the variety Henin had on her backhand. The top spin backhand was her trademark shot but she also had a great slice backhand that she could use either as a defensive shot or as an approach, a good drop shot and an outstanding lob. It was also very difficult to read.

Sombrerero loco
Dec 28th, 2012, 07:30 AM
azarenka is a nice match up for henin, justine would own her i think

améliemomo
Dec 28th, 2012, 08:16 AM
Henin is far superior than Azarenka at her peak

Azarenka would be so mad cause too much tennis for her, variety

Pops Maellard
Dec 28th, 2012, 08:41 AM
The fact that you're grouping Maria with Venus, Serena and Henin to start with. Hell, even with Davenport and Hingis.

What's so ridiculous with more slams and a 5-1 H2H?

Pops Maellard
Dec 28th, 2012, 09:12 AM
200% this. You know which match in ATP this would recall me ? Federer versus Söderling, Victoria is the closest player to the Swedish in the ATP tennis...


Azarenka and Soderling are not alike at all IMO. Soderling's big weapons (serve, forehand) are totally different to Azarenka's (backhand, footwork).

If anything, Azarenka is like Ferrer.

JarkaFish
Dec 28th, 2012, 11:24 AM
Henin would own the Falsetto Nightingale all day long and I would be cheering her on so hard.

:cheer:

Cosmic Voices
Dec 28th, 2012, 12:27 PM
I think it would be like the Jankovic H2H, Jelena played some amazing matches against Justine, but in the end, Henin won them all.

:hysteric:

Linguae^
Dec 28th, 2012, 12:58 PM
Oh, it is weird they never played each other. :weirdo:

Sammo
Dec 28th, 2012, 12:58 PM
In 10 encounters Justine would have won 8 and Azarenka 2

The Dawntreader
Dec 28th, 2012, 02:09 PM
Badly.

AcesHigh
Dec 28th, 2012, 02:14 PM
What's so ridiculous with more slams and a 5-1 H2H?

Davenport is an all-time great who peaked in one of the toughest periods of the Open Era 1998-2001 while Sharapova was never as great and only has more slams due to the weakest period in the Open Era

:shrug: No comparison

Vincey!
Dec 28th, 2012, 02:36 PM
Davenport is an all-time great who peaked in one of the toughest periods of the Open Era 1998-2001 while Sharapova was never as great and only has more slams due to the weakest period in the Open Era

:shrug: No comparison

You know she beat Davenport TWICE to win 2 of her slams right?....How is 1998-2001 a tougher era than the one were the Williams sisters were more dominant? Serena really started to be more dominant in 2002 and Venus (in a smaller fashion) in 2000.

Anyway back to the topic, I don't think their match up would be one sided (except on clay) but I think the H2H would largely be in favour of Henin.

Cosmic Voices
Dec 28th, 2012, 02:41 PM
Davenport is an all-time great who peaked in one of the toughest periods of the Open Era 1998-2001 while Sharapova was never as great and only has more slams due to the weakest period in the Open Era

:shrug: No comparison

first off, masha only really burst onto the tour around 2003/2004 and was competing with peak rena, vee, henin, clijsters - and yes davenport.
it's not her fault she couldn't play between 1998-2001 - mainly because, well, she wouldn't have been allowed :lol:




unless your bitter about the wimbledon 2004 SF win your post has not validity?

3 slams vs 4 slams
we'll see whose the greater once masha retires :oh:

babsi
Dec 28th, 2012, 02:42 PM
Pretty easy for Justine to handle. A match on clay would have been great to see, Justine would be toying with her there.

AcesHigh
Dec 28th, 2012, 02:44 PM
You know she beat Davenport TWICE to win 2 of her slams right?....How is 1998-2001 a tougher era than the one were the Williams sisters were more dominant? Serena really started to be more dominant in 2002 and Venus (in a smaller fashion) in 2000.


What does the Williams sisters being dominant have to do with being tougher? They were still seasoned winners and top 5 players along with Seles, Hingis, Davenport, Graf, Sanchez-Vicario, etc.


And are you really counting Davenport in 2008? :lol: Or the infamous rain delay match? H2H with Davenport and Sharapova is like H2H with Henin and Venus.. you can throw it out because clearly one player was at their peak and the other was nowhere near it.

AcesHigh
Dec 28th, 2012, 02:48 PM
first off, masha only really burst onto the tour around 2003/2004 and was competing with peak rena, vee, henin, clijsters - and yes davenport.
it's not her fault she couldn't play between 1998-2001 - mainly because, well, she wouldn't have been allowed :lol:




unless your bitter about the wimbledon 2004 SF win your post has not validity?

3 slams vs 4 slams
we'll see whose the greater once masha retires :oh:

Peak Rena? :spit: That alone invalidates your post. Venus was not the same player and Serena had the worst years of her career while Sharapova was at the top (2004-early 2008).

Davenport had to fight through peak Venus, prime Serena, peak Hingis, Seles, Graf, etc. Sharapova has to deal with the likes of Azarenka and Radwanska.

Vincey!
Dec 28th, 2012, 02:56 PM
What does the Williams sisters being dominant have to do with being tougher? They were still seasoned winners and top 5 players along with Seles, Hingis, Davenport, Graf, Sanchez-Vicario, etc.


And are you really counting Davenport in 2008? :lol: Or the infamous rain delay match? H2H with Davenport and Sharapova is like H2H with Henin and Venus.. you can throw it out because clearly one player was at their peak and the other was nowhere near it.

In my opinion it was a much tougher era when the WS were dominant :shrug:. Maria has beaten fair and square Davenport in 2004 no matter the weather condition. Do you sincerly minimize a 5-1 H2H? I mean I would understand if you'd talk about a 2-1 or 3-1 with most of the matches happening at the end of a career, but a 5-1 with only one match being played when Davenport wasn't playing that well is a bit hard to push. If you consider the peak of a player only a year or 2 how can you consider them better than a player who was consistent enough to win multiple slams in multiple years? Henin vs Venus H2H is totally different. Most of their matches happened when Justine was only starting her journey in the top 10, nowhere close to her best. Davenport and Sharapova's H2H happened in the middle of Davenport's career where she was playing her best and has been playing high level tennis for many years.

Smitten
Dec 28th, 2012, 03:00 PM
Yeah, I agree with Aces in a way but peak Sharapova could have won US '98 and AO '00. The only one I doubt is Wimbledon because of Graf in the F and Sharapova can't deal with a slice that good on grass or in general.

Davenport is quietly overrated on TF. She was a limited player, same as Sharapova. Just because she's nice and sweet and not really hated isn't enough to boost her profile.

Alejandrawrrr
Dec 28th, 2012, 03:02 PM
first off, masha only really burst onto the tour around 2003/2004 and was competing with peak rena, vee, henin, clijsters - and yes davenport.
it's not her fault she couldn't play between 1998-2001 - mainly because, well, she wouldn't have been allowed :lol:




unless your bitter about the wimbledon 2004 SF win your post has not validity?

3 slams vs 4 slams
we'll see whose the greater once masha retires :oh:

I don't care for this Sharapova-Dacenport debate, but no. Fuck no. GAWD NO. No shade btw but when did you start watching tennis?

And for what it's worth I actually think 04-08 Sharapova would even manage a winning H2H against Prime Davenport of 98-01. She was about a step quicker(not saying much but still :lol:) and much more mentally resilient, which was always the big difference between them.

Smitten
Dec 28th, 2012, 03:02 PM
:lol: @ Lindsay nowhere near her peak for some of Martha's wins.

Wasn't Davenport #1 in the fucking world for at least 2 or 3 of them. Off the top of my head, YEC RR, Tokyo, and Dubai?

Cosmic Voices
Dec 28th, 2012, 03:03 PM
Peak Rena? :spit: That alone invalidates your post. Venus was not the same player and Serena had the worst years of her career while Sharapova was at the top (2004-early 2008).

Davenport had to fight through peak Venus, prime Serena, peak Hingis, Seles, Graf, etc. Sharapova has to deal with the likes of Azarenka and Radwanska.

Ok I get your point about Rena, but you can't argue her wins over Davenport - which surely coincides with your post - if apparently Masha competed in a weaker era then how come she beat Davenport when she was playing some great tennis? Also, Serena has to compete with the likes of vika + aga too (2 slam finals in 2012) must I point out, you can't help which new era you compete with, masha's like the middle era as opposed to rena and then the newer - vika, caro, petra

plus masha was peak in her teen years which is a very hard thing to achieve nowadays

Cosmic Voices
Dec 28th, 2012, 03:03 PM
I don't care for this Sharapova-Dacenport debate, but no. Fuck no. GAWD NO. No shade btw but when did you start watching tennis?

And for what it's worth I actually think 04-08 Sharapova would even manage a winning H2H against Prime Davenport of 98-01. She was about a step quicker(not saying much but still :lol:) and much more mentally resilient, which was always the big difference between them.

i corrected myself about rena :lol:

AcesHigh
Dec 28th, 2012, 03:08 PM
I'm not going to get in a big debate. Biggest difference between 96-01 Davenport and 04-05 Davenport? Mentally she was a million times tougher.

The tour after 2003 was a lot weaker. Davenport was merely collecting the scraps that were left by the Big 4 falling apart.

Alejandrawrrr
Dec 28th, 2012, 03:09 PM
Back on topic though the answer changes depending on what exactly is being asked. Peak for Peak? Vika as of now would get mauled. If Henin never injured her elbow and was still active? Vika would edge Henin on most surfaces, except clay where even a past prime Henin would still probs be dominating. If they were just general contemporaries(like throw Vika in a time machine against Henin of the same age) Henin would win most of the encounters, with Vika getting wins here or there on grass and slow HC but being owned on clay.

Vincey!
Dec 28th, 2012, 03:23 PM
I'm not going to get in a big debate. Biggest difference between 96-01 Davenport and 04-05 Davenport? Mentally she was a million times tougher.

The tour after 2003 was a lot weaker. Davenport was merely collecting the scraps that were left by the Big 4 falling apart.

If we follow your logic, Davenport would have won most of the slams after 2001 with Serena and Venus...that didn't happen tho. She never actually won a slam after 2000 :shrug: It's not really fair to say that Davenport didn't win more slams after your tougher era because she wasn't mentally there anymore. I mean, Davenport wasn't any less good before or after the Graf and Seles retired :shrug: She still had great results and managed to get to #1 again, for a mentally absent player, she was playing well enough to do so.

Alejandrawrrr
Dec 28th, 2012, 03:44 PM
Well I think it's worth mentioning that for a player of her caliber Davenport was extremely unlucky that she was at her best at the same time as Peak Williams sisters, with the exact same surface preference. I mean look at her US Open record. Won it in 1998, lost to Serena in the 1999 semis, managed to defeat Serena in the 2000 quarters only to lose to Venus in the final, lost to Serena in the 2001 quarters and would have had to deal with Venus in the final even if she did win, lost to Serena in the 2002 semis and again, would have had to deal with Venus in the final even if she did win. And she lost a couple of Wimbledon matches to Venus as well. I've always viewed her as greater than the 3 slams she possesses, and her title count/weeks at #1 support that. I actually think there was a poll on TF that most agreed she was the player most impacted by the Williams era. Transport Davenport in that form to 04 and she'd probably have 2 more slams... Can't see her completing the career silver slam though :shrug:

hurricanejeanne
Dec 28th, 2012, 03:45 PM
I thank baby Jesus everyday that Vika didn't have to play Justine for purely selfish reasons.

Vika probably could have gotten a win or two over Justine (not on clay) but she would need Justine to be off just enough; Justine would win the majority of the matches because she's a superior player.

I do love how this thread turned into a Davenport debate. Lindsay was a mentally weaker player after 2000 and certainly after she blew out her knee in for the 2002 season. However, I do believe had she won 2004 US Open her mentality in 2005 would have been much better than it actually was. That said, she was still able to achieve quite a bit for an "old, slow, mentally weak" player in the twilight of her career. :shrug:

Nicolás89
Dec 28th, 2012, 04:57 PM
:haha: This thread.

NashaMasha
Dec 28th, 2012, 04:59 PM
Who is Azarenka to compare her with Henin? Really don't get it

Dominic
Dec 28th, 2012, 05:25 PM
They could have had some tight matches but Henin would have won the majority if not all their matches IMO
Henin had a better forehand, better speed, better serve, better net play etc.

The Dawntreader
Dec 28th, 2012, 05:31 PM
I'm not going to get in a big debate. Biggest difference between 96-01 Davenport and 04-05 Davenport? Mentally she was a million times tougher.

The tour after 2003 was a lot weaker. Davenport was merely collecting the scraps that were left by the Big 4 falling apart.

Well. She was tougher. Even in her prime, Lindsay found it hard to mentally impose herself against Venus, Serena. She just wasn't as robust and resilient a competitor as them. Same with Sharapova. And I love Lindsay loads too.

dsanders06
Dec 28th, 2012, 05:59 PM
:sobbing: at Aceshigh still hysterically stamping his foot and insisting Davenport is greater than Maria despite all evidence to the contrary.

Anyway, this would be a nightmare match-up for Vika, worse even than her one against Serena. Unlike Serena, Henin really does do EVERYTHING better than Vika, and she was also one of the best at using the full width of the court (which is one of the keys to beating Vika).

Dave.
Dec 28th, 2012, 06:35 PM
Sharapova beats Errani and all of a sudden she's fit to be mentioned in the same sentence as Davenport? TF. :sobbing:

Azarenka would struggle immensely against Henin. The players of the late 90s-2003 are just a completely different calibre than the ones who broke through from 2004 onwards. It's almost as if it's a different sport.

LightWarrior
Dec 28th, 2012, 06:38 PM
Just like Jankovic. Tight matches, no wins for Azarenka.

bobito
Dec 28th, 2012, 06:41 PM
:sobbing: at Aceshigh still hysterically stamping his foot and insisting Davenport is greater than Maria despite all evidence to the contrary.

FfpYe1RhokE

Enjoy :yeah:

Personally I don't think there was much between them. Certainly true that Davenport's best years were before Sharapova came along, perhaps making the H2H misleading. Certainly not true that Sharapova's slams were easier to win than Davenport's (with exception of the last one) as they both beat two very good players in each.

Stonerpova
Dec 28th, 2012, 06:48 PM
How would Azarenka have matched up against Henin?

Not well.

Azarenka wouldn't be able to out-hit her, out-run her, take the net away from her on a consistent basis, or out-think her. Plus Henin would rip apart her serve. Azarenka's tough enough, so some of their matches would be close, but Henin would be dominant in that match-up IMO.


Enjoy :yeah:

Not this again :lol:

Davenport herself freely admits something was very, very off about Maria that day.

powerpuff27
Dec 28th, 2012, 07:23 PM
Davenport is an all-time great

Davenport is no all time great, and if you think she is you clearly dont know the meaning of the word. Even to the people who have a generous and lavish list of all time greats with 5 or 6 tiers, Davenport would not be one of them. No player with only 3 majors in the womens game is an all time great.


Anyway on topic Henin easily on all surfaces. Azarenka does not do a single thing better than prime Henin. The way past her prime version of Henin of 2010 vs the current Azarenka had Henin continued playing might be interesting.

powerpuff27
Dec 28th, 2012, 07:27 PM
:sobbing: at Aceshigh still hysterically stamping his foot and insisting Davenport is greater than Maria despite all evidence to the contrary.

Anyway, this would be a nightmare match-up for Vika, worse even than her one against Serena. Unlike Serena, Henin really does do EVERYTHING better than Vika, and she was also one of the best at using the full width of the court (which is one of the keys to beating Vika).

Davenport could be argued to be above Maria at this point. Remember she was a year end number 1 ranked player 4 times, even though she only deserved about 2 of those probably, and she has about twice the number of tournament titles as Sharapova. Tennis careers should not just be evaluated by slams, even if they are the most important thing. I would say Clijsters, Davenport, and Sharapova are roughly equal at this point, but Maria has every chance to seperate herself from them. If Maria wins another 1 major she would open up some daylight on Davenport and Clijsters, and if she wins 2 majors to get to 6 I would rate her roughly equal with Hingis.

You are definitely right on the Azarenka and Henin matchup. The worst possible matchup for Azarenka probably. Henin has always had no problems with players who cant hit the ball harder than her (which isnt easy to do, at her prime she was top 5 or 6 in power, and only people like Venus, Serena, sometimes Clijsters, and Sharapova had more).

moby
Dec 28th, 2012, 07:50 PM
Henin has always had no problems with players who cant hit the ball harder than her (which isnt easy to do, at her prime she was top 5 or 6 in power, and only people like Venus, Serena, sometimes Clijsters, and Sharapova had more).I would not say she had no problems. She's had the occasional problem with fast counterpunching grinders such as Myskina, Jankovic, and Dementieva (even Kim and Amelie would exploit this) when she's not feeling her groundstokes and thus unable to hit through them, and they drag her into endless rallies and wear her down. Of course, that gets them a set, but they rarely had the firepower themselves to put her away once Justine reins it in and plays conservative defense herself.

I'm not seeing the Azarenka-Jankovic comparisons. Peak Jankovic was fast, could play creative defense and had a deceptive backhand that she could pull down the line at will. Victoria would fare much worse. Once Henin pulls the trigger in the rally, Victoria will do what she does against everyone who overpowers her: flail at the ball, push it back for an easy putaway for her opponent.

AcesHigh
Dec 28th, 2012, 07:50 PM
If we follow your logic, Davenport would have won most of the slams after 2001 with Serena and Venus...that didn't happen tho. She never actually won a slam after 2000 :shrug: It's not really fair to say that Davenport didn't win more slams after your tougher era because she wasn't mentally there anymore. I mean, Davenport wasn't any less good before or after the Graf and Seles retired :shrug: She still had great results and managed to get to #1 again, for a mentally absent player, she was playing well enough to do so.

At the end of 2001, she injured her knee and needed surgery which kept her out most of 2002. After that she was never really the same player. In addition to that, she just got older. I didn't say she didn't win slams because she wasn't mentally tough. She was mentally and physically past her peak and those cost her.

Davenport is no all time great, and if you think she is you clearly dont know the meaning of the word. Even to the people who have a generous and lavish list of all time greats with 5 or 6 tiers, Davenport would not be one of them. No player with only 3 majors in the womens game is an all time great.

Well every expert disagrees with you.
750+ tour wins, 55 titles, 4 YE #1's (one of only 4 women I believe) and more :shrug:

Don't mean to make this a Davenport thread but had to respond to powerpuff's ridiculous statement.

AcesHigh
Dec 28th, 2012, 07:53 PM
I would say she had no problems. She's had the occasional problem with fast counterpunching grinders such as Myskina, Jankovic, and Dementieva sometimes, when she's not feeling her groundstokes and thus unable to hit through them, and they drag her into endless rallies and wear her down. Of course, that gets them a set, but they rarely had the firepower themselves to put her away once Justine reins it in and plays conservative defense herself.

I wouldn't necessarily put Myskina and Dementieva in this group though. Both had respectable offensive capabilities off of both wings (especially Elena who I would consider a power baseliner). The problem was neither was capable to string together enough games to give Justine a challenge.

And while we remember Henin as a potential offensive juggernaut, this was only the case for 2007. She relied more on movement, guile, skill and allcourt prowess for most of her career. She was not going to hit through most opponents.

Sammo
Dec 28th, 2012, 08:00 PM
Not this again :lol:

Davenport herself freely admits something was very, very off about Maria that day.

Not exactly, she said 'it certainly wasn't her at her best level' :oh:

Vincey!
Dec 28th, 2012, 08:01 PM
At the end of 2001, she injured her knee and needed surgery which kept her out most of 2002. After that she was never really the same player. In addition to that, she just got older. I didn't say she didn't win slams because she wasn't mentally tough. She was mentally and physically past her peak and those cost her.



She might have been past her peak but she was still one of the best player at that time. I mean she clearly was playing well enough to be #1, she just never won another slam despite making it deep. You may be right about her being mentally less strong to win a slam, it doesn't change the fact that Sharapova was beating her regularly when she was doing well enough to be #1 or around that ranking. I understand you may consider that form below her peak, but if her peak only last a couple years and then nothing else happened you can't really know if Sharapova wouldn't have beaten Davenport at that peak anyway. Sharapova is far from her peak right now, and you may think that it's due to a weaker era but she still managed to win a slam after struggling with an injury at least as serious as Davenport even if Lindsay played in a weaker era according to you. I just don't think it's fair to speculate on the chance of Sharapova against Davenport only in the couple years Davenport was at her "peak" according to you. You need to judge a whole career with their whole achievement.

moby
Dec 28th, 2012, 08:02 PM
I wouldn't necessarily put Myskina and Dementieva in this group though. Both had respectable offensive capabilities off of both wings (especially Elena who I would consider a power baseliner). The problem was neither was capable to string together enough games to give Justine a challenge.

And while we remember Henin as a potential offensive juggernaut, this was only the case for 2007. She relied more on movement, guile, skill and allcourt prowess for most of her career. She was not going to hit through most opponents.

I was thinking of this:
gkjwzZvKQYw

and the last five games of:
j3_ohwGi-YE

It's true that Myskina and Dementieva could actually give the ball a punch (unlike Jankovic; unlike Jankovic too, they both had the rare win over Justine), but it was pretty far out of their comfort zones (technically for Myskina, mentally for Dementieva) to execute on any kind of consistent basis, and was definitely not enough against Justine's defense.

dsanders06
Dec 28th, 2012, 08:03 PM
Well every expert disagrees with you.
750+ tour wins, 55 titles, 4 YE #1's (one of only 4 women I believe) and more :shrug:

Don't mean to make this a Davenport thread but had to respond to powerpuff's ridiculous statement.

No they don't, pretty much every reputable commentator agreed Maria's RG title sealed the deal of who was greater -- Davenport even said it herself.

Can we please start a petition to consign AcesHigh, and anyone else who has literally nothing to contribute apart from grouchy rose-tinted "the WTA is much so worse than it used to be, any player who made the top 10 in 2000 would own the best players of today"-type comments, to the Blast from the Past forum please? :lol:


I would say she had no problems. She's had the occasional problem with fast counterpunching grinders such as Myskina, Jankovic, and Dementieva sometimes, when she's not feeling her groundstokes and thus unable to hit through them, and they drag her into endless rallies and wear her down. Of course, that gets them a set, but they rarely had the firepower themselves to put her away once Justine reins it in and plays conservative defense herself.

This is crucial. And it's the real reason why Jankovic lost so many leads in matches against Henin, and had nothing to do with Jankovic "choking". It was a simply a case of, in 2006-07, Justine's preferred A-game was playing all-out aggressive tennis from the off -- sometimes she pulled this off against Jankovic (the times when she got 6-2 6-2 blowout wins over her), but even on days when Justine's all-out aggressive game wasn't working and she ended up giving the first set away to Jankovic with a truckload of errors, Justine would then when she was close to defeat strip her game back and start counterpunching, confident in the knowledge that she could outrun and outlast Jankovic in long rallies. And it would be the same story against Azarenka -- even if an error-prone Justine gave away a first set to a more consistent Azarenka, Justine would almost everytime be able to switch gameplans and beat Vika at her own game if necessary.

miffedmax
Dec 28th, 2012, 08:15 PM
Very badly, since Vika was like 14 when Justine was in her prime.

powerpuff27
Dec 28th, 2012, 10:07 PM
Well every expert disagrees with you.


No expert disagrees with me you stupid shit. Have you ever heard a tennis expert call Davenport one of the greatest players of all time. Have you ever heard John McEnroe, Martina Navratilova, Bud Collins, Viginia Wade, Chris Evert, or anyone else refer to her by those terms. NO. The benchmark for being an all time great is just not just a freaking 3 majors. The minimum standard of an all time great to the people who have the broadest definition of the term is someone like Hingis, Hart, and Brough, to the stingier it is people like Venus, Henin, and Goolagong. TennisChannel which is a group of actual experts, not just a bunch of armchair critic who think they know it all like you, ranked her one spot above Clijsters, so by your logic Clijsters must be an all time great too, LOL! None of Davenport, Clijsters, or Sharapova are all time greats at this point, all are amongst the greats of their own era, there is a big difference. Sharapova though is the only one of the trio who still has a chance to establish herself as an all time great in the future.

Also to use weeks at number 1 in the post divisor ranking system as the crux of your argument already puts you in epic fail category before you say anything else. Lets look at it more practically, how many years was Davenport the best player in the World. 1 at the most, 1998, and some would even go with Hingis that year despite Lindsay being year end number 1.

AcesHigh
Dec 28th, 2012, 10:17 PM
No expert disagrees with me you stupid shit. Have you ever heard a tennis expert call Davenport one of the greatest players of all time. Have you ever heard John McEnroe, Martina Navratilova, Bud Collins, Viginia Wade, Chris Evert, or anyone else refer to her by those terms. NO.

:lol: yes I have.
And she has been on numerous lists of top 50 players of all-time male or female.
I said she was an all-time great.. not GOAT.

But what do I know, I'm a "stupid shit"

powerpuff27
Dec 28th, 2012, 10:21 PM
No they don't, pretty much every reputable commentator agreed Maria's RG title sealed the deal of who was greater -- Davenport even said it herself.


LOL this AceHigh poster will probably now say Davenport isnt a real tennis expert like herself and her friends (must be whom she is referring to when she says all experts).

What is all this talk about Davenport shining in the Golden Era anyway. I like her but she won all her slams after Graf, Seles, and Sanchez were basically finished, 1 combined slam for that group after mid 98, and before Venus, Serena, Clijsters, Henin emerged, 1 combined slam for that group before mid 2000. All 3 of her career slams came in that span. To me it sounds more like she shone in the transition era, long with Hingis, than anything else. If it is competition that matters even Capriati would rank over Davenport since she won all 3 of her slams when one or both of the Williams were on top, note I dont rank Capriati above Davenport, just going by that line of logic is all.

powerpuff27
Dec 28th, 2012, 10:25 PM
:lol: yes I have.
And she has been on numerous lists of top 50 players of all-time male or female.
I said she was an all-time great.. not GOAT.

But what do I know, I'm a "stupid shit"

So top 50 all time is not an all time great. OK then you must think Kim Clijsters is an all time great too as she had almost exactly the same rank in the Tennis Channel list. Sharapova after her French Open win and completing her Career Slam might have, probably would have, been ranked over her if they redid the list today as well, so that would make her an all time great too.

Whatever they are, all 3 are basically the same level, but Maria is probably the best of the 3 after completing her Career Slam. Competition arguments are interesting, but almost pointless when people can argue back and forth all day on them. Maria may have had weakish competition to win her French Open, but Davenport couldnt win a French Open or Clijsters a Wimbledon if you gave them a draw with only junior players probably.

moby
Dec 28th, 2012, 10:27 PM
:lol: yes I have.
And she has been on numerous lists of top 50 players of all-time male or female.
I said she was an all-time great.. not GOAT.

But what do I know, I'm a "stupid shit"

She would not be top 50 (but certainly still top 100) if she were not American.

ToopsTame
Dec 28th, 2012, 10:34 PM
I would not say she had no problems. She's had the occasional problem with fast counterpunching grinders such as Myskina, Jankovic, and Dementieva (even Kim and Amelie would exploit this) when she's not feeling her groundstokes and thus unable to hit through them, and they drag her into endless rallies and wear her down. Of course, that gets them a set, but they rarely had the firepower themselves to put her away once Justine reins it in and plays conservative defense herself.

I'm not seeing the Azarenka-Jankovic comparisons. Peak Jankovic was fast, could play creative defense and had a deceptive backhand that she could pull down the line at will. Victoria would fare much worse. Once Henin pulls the trigger in the rally, Victoria will do what she does against everyone who overpowers her: flail at the ball, push it back for an easy putaway for her opponent.

I like the Azarenka-Myskina comparison technique-wise. Azarenka has similarly clean strokes (but similar weird forehand) and baseline hugging instincts with a more consistent serve and better mental focus but with less flair and footspeed.

powerpuff27
Dec 28th, 2012, 10:37 PM
She would not be top 50 (but certainly still top 100) if she were not American.

You are probably right. The Americans were way overranked on that list (done by experts, but mostly American presumably). An example of this is Sharapova was ranked 14 places behind Capriati which is absurd, since even before the French Open Sharapovas career eclipsed Capriati in everyway.

moby
Dec 28th, 2012, 10:45 PM
I like the Azarenka-Myskina comparison technique-wise. Azarenka has similarly clean strokes (but similar weird forehand) and baseline hugging instincts with a more consistent serve and better mental focus but with less flair and footspeed.Hmm, I think Azarenka's rally strokes are much more stable than Myskina's. While Myskina did well in long rallies, she usually ended throwing some junk and conservative soft loops to maintain consistency and used her incredible anticipation and footspeed to defend. She slapped at the ball flat a lot to get depth and pace, which allowed her to be aggressive even when she was playing defense, but this sort of technique is sometimes at the cost of a high unforced error count.

Whereas Azarenka is more of an outright aggressive grinder who kills her opponents like a boa constrictor. If you don't take control of the rally against her, she'll slowly suffocate you stroke after stroke as you cede more and more ground. And she rarely leaks unforced errors. A bit like Agassi in his second career.

Peak Myskina probably takes down Peak Azarenka, but Azarenka would lead this head-to-head.

It's sort of sad that we are comparing Azarenka to Myskina, who was a Tier 2.5 top player in her day. :lol:

powerpuff27
Dec 28th, 2012, 10:48 PM
People mentioned Dementieva and Myskina, but Dementieva was 2-8 vs Henin I think, and Dementieva actually did hit the ball very hard off the ground at her peak. I would say at her best she was in a similar range to Henin in her lesser prime years in both power and speed around court, even if way behind in overall ability and variety, but that would explain why she had some marginal success, along with her consistency and fighting spirit. Myskina was only a top player for a year or two so I dont remember much about her, but her ground game was excellent and IMO better than Azarenkas off both sides, especialy the forehand. I am always surprised people think she is such a weak slam winner, especialy relative to some of the women who have won slams.

I dont think Azarenka is even at the same level of Dementieva and Myskina in pace off the ground, let alone off Henin, and obviously Henin is also way ahead in variety, movement, overall defense, shotmaking ability, finesse, volleying skills, transition skills, directional control, ability to produce angles. Maybe accuracy, placement, and consistency they are fairly close but that would be it.

LUVMIRZA
Dec 28th, 2012, 10:54 PM
obviously much better than Maria.

azinna
Dec 28th, 2012, 10:54 PM
Come on, now. Justine, with regularity. Vika is wrong-footed with ease by aggressive players with strong point construction, strong variety of put-aways and solid enough disguise to have Vika guessing early or just standing still. When this happens, Vika's one choice is to "really go for her shots," i.e. inject a bit more pace and hit a bit closer to the lines.

She hasn't got the game or mindset, though, to manage high-risk. So when the above aggressive and wrong-footing player also has a more potent transition from defense to offense, she's on the losing end of a good contest. Cue game handshake with Kim, Justine, Serena, Venus, even in B+ form.

....

The Dawntreader
Dec 28th, 2012, 11:02 PM
It's sort of sad that we are comparing Azarenka to Myskina, who was a Tier 2.5 top player in her day. :lol:

The standards are at an all-time low. We'll be comparing her to Majoli soon too.

debopero
Dec 28th, 2012, 11:09 PM
So, I know people here like to be cynical, but I think Azarenka is a significantly better player than Myskina, if only for her mentality. It wasn't as if the only people Myskina lost to were the top players.

Pops Maellard
Dec 28th, 2012, 11:13 PM
Davenport had to fight through peak Venus, prime Serena, peak Hingis, Seles, Graf, etc. Sharapova has to deal with the likes of Azarenka and Radwanska.

I don't necessarily think Maria is greater than Lindsay (yet) but I was just answering that person who said Maria isn't even in the same company as Lindsay (which is absurd - they're AT LEAST equal).

And Masha won 3/4 of her slams before Azarenka & Radwanska were even a blip on the tennis radar. Masha had tough draws in her first three slams, beating top seeds Serena, Mauresmo, Henin (all of them reigning slam champs at the time) at her first three slams respectively, and other top players like Davenport, Ivanovic, Jankovic, Dementieva.

Her draw at 2012 RG was kind of fortunate, but that's not her fault. Pre-shoulder Masha had as tough draws at slams as you can almost get. Top seeds in all three.

Also, Lindsay had her chances to increase her slam tally but didn't capitalize. Couldn't finish an injured and awful Serena at '05 AO, served for the match and had match point VS Venus at Wimbledon - lost both times. I love Lindsay really, but Maria has taken her chances and won that extra slam.

And are you really counting Davenport in 2008? :lol: Or the infamous rain delay match?

Davenport was still good in 2008 :shrug:. She laid smackdowns on Ivanovic and (an admittedly green) Wozniacki and in her short time on tour in '08 she won two titles. Certainly a tricky player still. ;)

As for the rain delay, another match that Lindsay should've maybe finished but didn't. Not Maria's fault she's mentally tougher :).

But yes, enough derailing the thread :).

powerpuff27
Dec 28th, 2012, 11:16 PM
So, I know people here like to be cynical, but I think Azarenka is a significantly better player than Myskina, if only for her mentality. It wasn't as if the only people Myskina lost to were the top players.

In her peak years Myskina mostly only lost to top players in slams. Azarenka in her non peak years will be losing to many non elite in slams, even now she isnt immune to doing so as we saw at Roland Garros.

debopero
Dec 28th, 2012, 11:24 PM
In her peak years Myskina mostly only lost to top players in slams. Azarenka in her non peak years will be losing to many non elite in slams, even now she isnt immune to doing so as we saw at Roland Garros.

Cibulkova is pretty much an elite player :shrug:. She's a former Grand Slam semifinalist and has had many quality wins. We have no idea how she will fare in the future.

In her prime, Myskina lost early in Grand Slams to an inexperienced Chakvetadze and Amy Frazier.

powerpuff27
Dec 28th, 2012, 11:26 PM
Sorry regardless having period ranked in the top 20 Cibulkova is no elite player. I dont consider Barbara Paulus an elite player when she played, and Paulus even got into the top 10 at one point, which correct me if I am wrong but I dont believe Cibulkova ever did. She is a very solid tour performer who is often a beneficiary of the new 32 player seeding system, that is it. Amy Frazier and Chakvetadze are probably better players than Cibulkova (remember Frazier had many of her better years in the Graf, Seles or Williams years, as opposed to the Wozniacki era, which Sharapova is so ridiculed by some in this thread for having only a bit of her success against, so please dont go psychoanalyzing results between the two) so you arent helping your point, all you show is in their best years they lose sometimes to the same sort of level of players in slams.

StoneRose
Dec 28th, 2012, 11:28 PM
Cibulkova is pretty much an elite player :shrug:. No :shrug:.

She's a former Grand Slam semifinalist and has had many quality wins. We have no idea how she will fare in the future.She has many quality losses as well, top 20 max.

NashaMasha
Dec 28th, 2012, 11:31 PM
Well every expert disagrees with you.
750+ tour wins, 55 titles, 4 YE #1's (one of only 4 women I believe) and more :shrug:

Don't mean to make this a Davenport thread but had to respond to powerpuff's ridiculous statement.


Davenport - 3 Slams, 4 RU , 11 SF (participated in 55 Majors) , 1 YEC , Olympic Gold, 11 Tier 1 titles, career W/L ratio 79,5%
Sharapova - 4 Slams, 3RU, 8SF (participated in 38 Slams), 1 YEC, Olympic Silver , 10 Tier 1 titles, career W/L ratio 80,4%

Sharapova with 1 Slam more (and CGS) and very close other achievements easily surpasses Davenport

The Dawntreader
Dec 28th, 2012, 11:32 PM
Cibulkova is pretty much an elite player :shrug:. She's a former Grand Slam semifinalist and has had many quality wins. We have no idea how she will fare in the future.

In her prime, Myskina lost early in Grand Slams to an inexperienced Chakvetadze and Amy Frazier.

Cibulkova is no elite player. No, no.

debopero
Dec 28th, 2012, 11:33 PM
No :shrug:.
She has many quality losses as well, top 20 max.

I was talking about Azarenka. We don't know how she will fare in the future once she has "passed her peak." I doubt she has even reached her peak yet.

debopero
Dec 28th, 2012, 11:34 PM
Cibulkova is no elite player. No, no.

I would argue anyone in the Top 20 is elite to a certain extent (not sure whether she is at the moment or not).

debopero
Dec 28th, 2012, 11:35 PM
Sorry regardless having period ranked in the top 20 Cibulkova is no elite player. I dont consider Barbara Paulus an elite player when she played, and Paulus even got into the top 10 at one point, which correct me if I am wrong but I dont believe Cibulkova ever did. She is a very solid tour performer who is often a beneficiary of the new 32 player seeding system, that is it. Amy Frazier and Chakvetadze are probably better players than Cibulkova (remember Frazier had many of her better years in the Graf, Seles or Williams years, as opposed to the Wozniacki era, which Sharapova is so ridiculed by some in this thread for having only a bit of her success against, so please dont go psychoanalyzing results between the two) so you arent helping your point, all you show is in their best years they lose sometimes to the same sort of level of players in slams.

Do you honestly believe Myskina would be the number one player in the world right now?

Plus, I never said Frazier or an up-and-coming Chakvetadze were poor players. I am just pointing out that Azarenka's one worst loss this year is no different from the many "bad" losses Myskina suffered while in her "prime."

powerpuff27
Dec 28th, 2012, 11:35 PM
Well Frazier was a top 20 player for tons of years, so by that measure she was elite too.

ToopsTame
Dec 28th, 2012, 11:35 PM
Hmm, I think Azarenka's rally strokes are much more stable than Myskina's. While Myskina did well in long rallies, she usually ended throwing some junk and conservative soft loops to maintain consistency and used her incredible anticipation and footspeed to defend. She slapped at the ball flat a lot to get depth and pace, which allowed her to be aggressive even when she was playing defense, but this sort of technique is sometimes at the cost of a high unforced error count.

Whereas Azarenka is more of an outright aggressive grinder who kills her opponents like a boa constrictor. If you don't take control of the rally against her, she'll slowly suffocate you stroke after stroke as you cede more and more ground. And she rarely leaks unforced errors. A bit like Agassi in his second career.

Peak Myskina probably takes down Peak Azarenka, but Azarenka would lead this head-to-head.

It's sort of sad that we are comparing Azarenka to Myskina, who was a Tier 2.5 top player in her day. :lol:

That makes sense. Azarenka wears opponents down relentlessly, Myskina relied more on a bag of tricks. I don't think it's totally sad, if her style of precision grinding weren't such a successful strategy 95% of the time, Azarenka would be motivated to add other things to her game.

powerpuff27
Dec 28th, 2012, 11:37 PM
Do you honestly believe Myskina would be the number one player in the world right now?

Probably not but it isnt definitive proof of who is better. Azarenka is number 1 and isnt considered the best, Wozniacki was number 1 last year and wasnt considered the best, and so on. Anyway Dementieva and Myskina were 2-8 vs Henin, and never came close to beating her in a slam, so lets not pretend they were tough opponents. Granted 2-8 is still better than I think Azarenka would fare. Regardless who is better overall though Dementieva and to a lesser extent Myskina could sometimes hit and run with Henin off the ground though, Azarenka who doesnt hit as hard off the ground or move as well as any of those three cant even do either of those things.

JarkaFish
Dec 28th, 2012, 11:45 PM
Bringing up the Cibulkova loss is a tad lame tbh, everyone knows that Vika is shit on clay, and that being her worse loss this year is actually pretty impressive more than anything else.

StoneRose
Dec 28th, 2012, 11:51 PM
Bringing up the Cibulkova loss is a tad lame tbh, everyone knows that Vika is shit on clay, and that being her worse loss this year is actually pretty impressive more than anything else.Vika didn't have a very good clay season 2012. 2011 looked promising for some time before injury. She's certainly not as good on clay as on HC but there's scope for improvement this year.

ToopsTame
Dec 28th, 2012, 11:51 PM
Henin (even version 2.0) put together with an aggressive grinder could produce some great tennis.
M79lkquqDP8

NashaMasha
Dec 29th, 2012, 12:27 AM
Do you honestly believe Myskina would be the number one player in the world right now?

Plus, I never said Frazier or an up-and-coming Chakvetadze were poor players. I am just pointing out that Azarenka's one worst loss this year is no different from the many "bad" losses Myskina suffered while in her "prime."

Myskina was ITF 2004 year Champion , World #2 during the time when WTA was packed with Serena, Venus, Justine, Amelie, Lindsay, Jennifer, Elena , Sveta , Maria

dsanders06
Dec 29th, 2012, 12:41 AM
Come on, now. Justine, with regularity. Vika is wrong-footed with ease by aggressive players with strong point construction, strong variety of put-aways and solid enough disguise to have Vika guessing early or just standing still. When this happens, Vika's one choice is to "really go for her shots," i.e. inject a bit more pace and hit a bit closer to the lines.

She hasn't got the game or mindset, though, to manage high-risk. So when the above aggressive and wrong-footing player also has a more potent transition from defense to offense, she's on the losing end of a good contest. Cue game handshake with Kim, Justine, Serena, Venus, even in B+ form.

....

Actually, I genuinely think Venus would've struggled quite a lot with Azarenka. It's actually a misconception that the way to beat Vika is simply to overpower her -- if you hit shots right to Azarenka, she's EXCELLENT at reacting quickly enough to scrape back even the most powerful shots that are within her reach. The key is to fully use the width of the court and expose her mobility -- Serena 2008-onwards is very good at this, but Venus really never was, her game was ALWAYS about just trying to get as much raw pace on her shots as possible and placement be damned. I really think Vika would've had a field day getting back all of Venus's rockets that were aimed down the centre of the court, and making Venus wonder why her hardest-hit shots were coming back until she made an error - just like Aza's matches against Maria.

I mean, Venus's match against Azarenka in Dubai 2010 is cited as one of Venus's best matches in recent years - and rightly so - but even there, with Venus playing so well, a pre-peak Azarenka managed to make it extremely competitive.

powerpuff27
Dec 29th, 2012, 02:55 AM
The only place I could see prime Venus having any problems with Azarenka are slower hard courts, I mean really slow like the Australian Open. Grass obviously is no contest. Carpet/indoors Venus and her first strike and pace would be too much for Azarenka who isnt some unbelievable defender. Clay Azarenka is so useless, that even though Venus struggles, prime Venus who almost always made atleast the quarters of RG would still win comfortably. Faster hard courts I would also back Venus, only great players, greater players than Azarenka, beat her at the U.S Open any year from 1997-2010.

Slutiana
Dec 29th, 2012, 03:32 AM
lolz at dsanders (as usual) talking out of his butt. Unlike with Serena who, despite her record, her footwork can be caught out by Azarenka's depth and returning when she's not serving well, Azarenka's game completely feeds into Venus'. That consistent and unchanging mid-to-fast pace ball is what Venus has always loved, as is the serve that is ineffective but has just enough pace on it. Azarenka is an okay mover but not enough to trouble Venus' weaponry.

Venus struggles(ed) mostly against very good movers who frustrate her, give her zero pace and redirect her own pace against her.

Nicolás89
Dec 29th, 2012, 03:41 AM
No player ever nowhere has struggled with Henin's sliced bh, that's all I wanted to add.

JarkaFish
Dec 29th, 2012, 04:00 AM
No player ever nowhere has struggled with Henin's sliced bh, that's all I wanted to add.

LOL, Okay.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eulVmc4JYZA

:oh:

powerpuff27
Dec 29th, 2012, 04:22 AM
No player ever nowhere has struggled with Henin's sliced bh, that's all I wanted to add.

Even if that were true (it isnt) Henin would have about another dozen different backhands and strokes of any sort she could utilize to puncture Azarenka as she wished. The beauty of this matchup for Henin is she could beat Azarenka anyway she chose to. It isnt like Henin's matches with a Williams or sometimes Sharaopva and Clijsters where on faster courts especialy she has to carefully map out of her strategic choices. Against even peak Azarenka, a somewhat prime Henin could easily outhit her, outpower her, outmaneuver him, outgrind her, outsteady her, beat her with her all court game or superior volleying skills, outrun her. Azarenka would essentialy be her toy to play with and beat however she desired, as Vika is from half a notch to three notches below Henin in every aspect of the game, and none of her stylistic characteristics present any problem for Henin with her height (like Mauresmo's topspin), grips, or anything else either. It would simply be about Henin deciding how she wanted to win the match, and Azarenka deciding how she wanted to go down.

VeeJJ
Dec 29th, 2012, 04:49 AM
Henin win's because of her fitness I think. Her pace absorbtion and redirection would make Azarenka a non factor.

Smitten
Dec 29th, 2012, 11:33 AM
Venus would trash any version of Azarenka. Azarenka hits with decent pace but not hard enough to matter.

Venus would gobble her up in rallies and Azarenka is far too slow of foot to cope when Venus is making her shots. There's no real chance for Azarenka to be offensive in that matchup besides returning second serve. Venus is ultra-aggressive and relentless, Azarenka has limited defensive ability against top-tier pace.

Matt01
Dec 29th, 2012, 03:49 PM
Davenport - 3 Slams, 4 RU , 11 SF (participated in 55 Majors) , 1 YEC , Olympic Gold, 11 Tier 1 titles, career W/L ratio 79,5%
Sharapova - 4 Slams, 3RU, 8SF (participated in 38 Slams), 1 YEC, Olympic Silver , 10 Tier 1 titles, career W/L ratio 80,4%

Sharapova with 1 Slam more (and CGS) and very close other achievements easily surpasses Davenport


Where are weeks at #1 or year-end-#1s or tournament titles overall you clown?

NashaMasha
Dec 29th, 2012, 03:53 PM
Where are weeks at #1 or year-end-#1s or tournament titles overall you clown?

Do you want to mean that Venus is inferiour to Caro and Jankovic? I mean You, Clownito? :lol:

sammy01
Dec 29th, 2012, 03:58 PM
No player ever nowhere has struggled with Henin's sliced bh, that's all I wanted to add.

:help: Henin's slice kept her in points she would otherwise have had to play ridiculously low percentage shots instead. It changed up pace so her opponents never really settled like they would against other players.

Matt01
Dec 29th, 2012, 04:01 PM
Do you want to mean that Venus is inferiour to Caro and Jankovic? I mean You, Clownito? :lol:


Why didn't you simply answer my question? And my question had nothing to do with Venus or Caro so stick to the topic at hand :help:

NashaMasha
Dec 29th, 2012, 04:10 PM
Why didn't you simply answer my question? And my question had nothing to do with Venus or Caro so stick to the topic at hand :help:

Probably because weeks being #1 are irrelevant when we speak about achievements . Reaching #1 position is an achievement , holding it for more weeks not that important ... (Unless it's record numbers like Steffi's , Federer's)

Safina, Caro . Vika have more weeks being #1 than ASV, Clijsters, Venus, Capriati ..... But they all together are not worth a finger of Venus

Matt01
Dec 29th, 2012, 07:28 PM
Probably because weeks being #1 are irrelevant when we speak about achievements . Reaching #1 position is an achievement , holding it for more weeks not that important ... (Unless it's record numbers like Steffi's , Federer's)

Safina, Caro . Vika have more weeks being #1 than ASV, Clijsters, Venus, Capriati ..... But they all together are not worth a finger of Venus


But that doesn't mean that we have to throw out those numbers entirely because they don't suit your biased opinion. :lol: If we are talking about Davenport and Sharapova, weeks at #1 (and btw I was also talking about tournament titles in my post above) are certainly relevant.

powerpuff27
Dec 29th, 2012, 07:33 PM
Weeks at number 1 in the post divisor system era are meaningless. The rankings have been so skewed to reality of who were really the best players, and often who are even producing the best years, that they have become meaningless until they return to a form of the 75-99 ranking system, in which case they would have to be respected again, even if sometimes people would disagree with them. Pretty much all that matters in the WTA fiasco ranking system era is who in practical terms was the best player that year:

2000- Venus
2001- Venus
2002- Serena
2003- Henin
2004- Henin or Sharapova
2005- Clijsters
2006- Henin or Mauresmo
2007- Henin
2008- Serena
2009- Serena
2010- Clijsters or Serena
2011- Kvitova
2012- Serena


Davenport had only one year ever she was arguably the best player, and that was 1998, and some thought Hingis was better that year, in fact looking at their results I am baffled how Hingis wasnt year end #1 but whatever. Sharapova as well had only one year ever she was arguably the best player, that being 2004, and some thought that was Henin. So both are in the same boat in that sense, only one year each they were arguably the best, and not even that clear cut. Bizarre rankings aside there is nothing between them there.

dsanders06
Dec 29th, 2012, 07:49 PM
:help: Henin's slice kept her in points she would otherwise have had to play ridiculously low percentage shots instead. It changed up pace so her opponents never really settled like they would against other players.

There's some ignorant people here who have never actually seen some of the all-time great slices in action, and assume that all slices are as innocuous as the ones the likes of Serena and Maria(God love her), who only throw in the occasional slice when they're running out of ideas and end up throwing in a really shitty short slice that sits up and begs to be put away by their opponent. I mean, the poster you quoted once claimed GRAF's slice would've been a LIABILITY against today's players :spit: Henin's slice, while not as GOATly as Steffi's, was as you say a crucial part of what made her the 2nd-best defensive player of her generation, and would be a huge asset in terms of outlasting Azarenka in long rallies (just to make this post vaguely on-topic).

treufreund
Dec 29th, 2012, 07:50 PM
please don't compare their 2 backhands as equal or give the edge to vika, it is insulting! henin could actually slice and had amazing angles with it as well as rip it DTL (i cant recall vika ever hitting hers DTL ever).

there is no part of the game vika comes close to henin in and if you think vika is a competitor then you should watch old henin vids when she gets the bit between her teeth.


Justine would demolish her on clay or grass and medium or fast hard courts. Slow hard courts probably could be a tossup. Vika's shots are not as penetrating as Maria's by any stretch so I think Justine could have handled. Kim was always so tough for Justine because of how physically strong she and because of her defense. Azarenka is not as good at that as Kim when Kim was at her peak and yet Justine and Kim still had very tough matches. Justine would rip apart the Azarenka forehand IMO. I do think Vika could snatch some wins here and there because she is very good. Maybe 8-2 for Justine if they played ten times. A lot does depend on surface. Cannot say Vika with any chance on clay or grass though.

RG Freak
Dec 29th, 2012, 08:36 PM
Just watch what Brianti (who is basically a lesser version of Henin) did to Azarenka in the 1st round of RG this year, until she choked.
It really wouldn't be a pretty match up for Azarenka, would be lucky to even take a set off Henin.

powerpuff27
Dec 29th, 2012, 08:39 PM
There's some ignorant people here who have never actually seen some of the all-time great slices in action, and assume that all slices are as innocuous as the ones the likes of Serena and Maria(God love her), who only throw in the occasional slice when they're running out of ideas and end up throwing in a really shitty short slice that sits up and begs to be put away by their opponent. I mean, the poster you quoted once claimed GRAF's slice would've been a LIABILITY against today's players :spit: Henin's slice, while not as GOATly as Steffi's, was as you say a crucial part of what made her the 2nd-best defensive player of her generation, and would be a huge asset in terms of outlasting Azarenka in long rallies (just to make this post vaguely on-topic).

Henin the 2nd best defensive player. I thought she was the best. Who do you consider the best. If it Clijsters I would disagree, Kim only defends as well as Justine on hard courts, on grass and clay Henins defense is much better.

Lucemferre
Feb 17th, 2013, 10:40 PM
Anybody changed their opinion after today?

sammy01
Feb 17th, 2013, 10:57 PM
Anybody changed their opinion after today?

Nope. Jaja has loads of wins against Serena and never against Henin.

Henin was never the type to give away wins anywhere (probably why she burned out every other year usually) and if need be Henin would have been in 30 shot rallies in that 3rd set today against Vika. Throwing in knifed slices to keep Vika's crosscourt hitting off balance.

Henin very rarely lost to consistent players, because if needs be her plan B could be to be as consistent herself and she was a heck of a better athlete at doing that than Vika.

debopero
Feb 17th, 2013, 11:01 PM
I don't think Serena playing a bad match means anything in terms of this debate. However, I do think the match would be closer than some would think.

Roookie
Feb 17th, 2013, 11:22 PM
Anybody changed their opinion after today?

No :lol: Justine wins everywhere.

bobito
Feb 18th, 2013, 05:26 AM
Anybody changed their opinion after today?

Nope.

Lucyxx
Feb 18th, 2013, 05:32 AM
Well. All you really need in tennis is a good baseline game. Vika returned Serena's serve well today, so you have a good indication that she would return JHH's well too.

That BH of Justine's was excellent. I think that would dictate a rally with Vika.

JHH had the tendency to get too riled up, while Vika maintains a steady attitude throughout the match. JHH was more of a streaky player.

I think if Vika were to play Justine in a three set match today (peak Vika or close to it) she would have a slight advantage as she showed Serena.

Don't underestimate Victoria's will power.

I think overall peak JHH would claim an 11-4 to 9-6 H2H advantage versus peak Vika if they were to meet 15 times.

traralgon
Feb 18th, 2013, 05:30 PM
Judging by how Henin struggled against Wozniacki in Miami I think Azarenka would easily beat her. Vika would bring back just as many balls and she would hit far more winners.

Bonfire
Feb 18th, 2013, 05:41 PM
Justine 1.0 - beats Vika
Justine 2.0 - loses to Vika

Break My Rapture
Feb 18th, 2013, 05:46 PM
Nope. Jaja has loads of wins against Serena and never against Henin.

Henin was never the type to give away wins anywhere (probably why she burned out every other year usually) and if need be Henin would have been in 30 shot rallies in that 3rd set today against Vika. Throwing in knifed slices to keep Vika's crosscourt hitting off balance.

Henin very rarely lost to consistent players, because if needs be her plan B could be to be as consistent herself and she was a heck of a better athlete at doing that than Vika.
Don't understand the comparison with Jankovic at all.

LCS
Feb 18th, 2013, 05:59 PM
Peak Henin would probably win but Azarenka catches the ball really early and can redirection tremendously well. She could keep Henin on the run.

Trickle
Feb 18th, 2013, 06:06 PM
Such a shame that they never met.

Jane Lane
Feb 18th, 2013, 06:11 PM
Justine 1.0 - beats Vika
Justine 2.0 - loses to Vika

Agree with this.

tennisobserver
Feb 18th, 2013, 06:40 PM
It is a shame that they haven't met, I would say if both plays at their best, then Justine will win, but Justine's game can have a bit more ups and downs than Vika. If they play on clay, obviously Justine has a big edge, if they play on hardcourt, I would give a slight edge to Vika unless Justine is playing at her best. But it should be a very interesting match-up

Flavia P.
Feb 18th, 2013, 07:17 PM
I think Henin would win 8/10 matches in a 10 match series evenly divided on clay, HC and grass.

Roookie
Feb 20th, 2013, 01:22 AM
Let me put it this way, even 2010's shitine would beat current Azarenka. Its a mismatch shot by shot.

machinist
Mar 10th, 2013, 01:01 PM
I think Azarenka would prevail. It's very hard to beat her nowadays. She would figure out Henin's weaknesses in no time.

JoPova
Mar 10th, 2013, 01:03 PM
I think Azarenka would prevail. It's very hard to beat her nowadays. She would figure out Henin's weaknesses in no time.

It's not as if Henin had many glaring weaknesses though :help:

Alexandros
Mar 10th, 2013, 01:24 PM
I think Azarenka would prevail. It's very hard to beat her nowadays. She would figure out Henin's weaknesses in no time.

How many weaknesses do you think Henin had?

Break My Rapture
Mar 10th, 2013, 01:25 PM
It's not as if Henin had many glaring weaknesses though :help:
Not many, but she has them. Like I explained when I started this thread, Henin is vulnerable when she's receiving a kickserve on her BH. I also still think the constant, incredible depth on Azarenka's shots wouldn't allow Henin to completely dictate at all, they both tend to construct their points carefully and sometimes at a rather slowish pace. I agree with the sentiment that Azarenka would beat Henin post-2007. Henin pre-2007 would beat Azarenka 8 of 10 times. But I don't think the matches would be blow-outs as some suggest.

Brad[le]y.
Mar 10th, 2013, 01:31 PM
If we're talking about the Henin that played Venus at the USO '07 SF then Azarenka would struggle to win games let alone the match.

Fighterpova
Mar 10th, 2013, 02:18 PM
Death at people saying Peak Azarenka would beat peak Henin :haha:

TF, I can't :facepalm:

Some users obviously started watching tennis in 2011/2012 because I see no other explanation. I honestly don't believe Azarenka would have won more than 5-6 games vs Peak Henin :lol: Some people keep saying Azarenka would know how to expose Henin's weaknesses, but that's just :spit:

Imo, Azarenka is the perfect match up for Henin because Henin would dictate all the points. She definitely had enough fire power and variety to take out Vika plus as far as I can remember, Henin had a pretty good serve :shrug:

Fighterpova
Mar 10th, 2013, 02:18 PM
y.;25348354']If we're talking about the Henin that played Venus at the USO '07 SF then Azarenka would struggle to win games let alone the match.

This :lol:

laurie
Mar 10th, 2013, 02:45 PM
I see this is a very old thread, the sort of thread I like to comment on anyway. I think this would not have been a good matchup for Azarenka, Henin I think had too much variety and also more athleticism and quickness to deal with Azarenka's groundstrokes. Remember, Azarenka likes to play solid within margins. So against Henin she would have had to adapt her game and go for lines more often because Henin can defend much better than most of the top players today. Out of 15 to 20 matches, I am thinking Henin would have a substantial lead, just like she did over Ivanovic, Kuznetsova, Jankovic and others.

It's interesting today how so few really quick players are in the top 10 or top 20 even.

shap_half
Mar 10th, 2013, 03:06 PM
When you watch something like Viktoria's match against Li Na at the Australian Open, you see just how limited Viktoria's game can be but also how deceptively solid her defense is. But her aggressive plays are so one dimensional so I think Justine will certainly have no problem dispatching her.

shap_half
Mar 10th, 2013, 03:07 PM
It's interesting today how so few really quick players are in the top 10 or top 20 even.

I started a thread regarding the growing irrelevance of speed among this generation of players, and I was told that I was wrong.

JoPova
Mar 10th, 2013, 03:15 PM
Not many, but she has them. Like I explained when I started this thread, Henin is vulnerable when she's receiving a kickserve on her BH. I also still think the constant, incredible depth on Azarenka's shots wouldn't allow Henin to completely dictate at all, they both tend to construct their points carefully and sometimes at a rather slowish pace. I agree with the sentiment that Azarenka would beat Henin post-2007. Henin pre-2007 would beat Azarenka 8 of 10 times. But I don't think the matches would be blow-outs as some suggest.

Thank you for your your answer! I agree with you: most of their hardcourt matches would be very competitive!

laurie
Mar 10th, 2013, 03:44 PM
I started a thread regarding the growing irrelevance of speed among this generation of players, and I was told that I was wrong.

It's something I would like to write an article about. It appears in the womens game at least, the slower courts have allowed the players with lesser athleticism to get to the very top on a consistent basis. Thinking back to a few years ago with Henin, Clijsters, Mauresmo, Venus, Myskina, Dementieva and others mixed in with Sharapova, Davenport, Pierce - there was a cross section of really quick fast players and players who worked hard to compete with the more naturally athletic and quick players.

Safina, Wozniacki and now Azarenka is an indication how tennis is heading at this moment in time when claiming the top position. Solid and consistent play is getting the most reward on the medium paced surfaces we have today.

I should add as well that perhaps tennis is not attracting really fast athletic girls at present who knows, maybe they are going into other sports?

Start da Game
Mar 10th, 2013, 03:53 PM
on hardcourts, surely redfool would have his nails between his teeth......that much for sure......

DemWilliamsGulls
Mar 10th, 2013, 04:22 PM
like Maria :shrug:

Thats what im thinking too...Azerenka is playing kinda like Maria was back in the day...more consistent..so im thinking the match up would be the same.

bobito
Mar 10th, 2013, 05:26 PM
y.;25348354']If we're talking about the Henin that played Venus at the USO '07 SF then Azarenka would struggle to win games let alone the match.

True enough

Fighterpova
Mar 10th, 2013, 05:28 PM
Thats what im thinking too...Azerenka is playing kinda like Maria was back in the day...more consistent..so im thinking the match up would be the same.

:spit:

Protoss
Mar 10th, 2013, 06:33 PM
Thats what im thinking too...Azerenka is playing kinda like Maria was back in the day...more consistent..so im thinking the match up would be the same.
Sharapova had a lot better serve though and more firepower off the ground. :shrug:

Crater718
Mar 10th, 2013, 07:09 PM
It's interesting today how so few really quick players are in the top 10 or top 20 even.

It's something I would like to write an article about. It appears in the womens game at least, the slower courts have allowed the players with lesser athleticism to get to the very top on a consistent basis. Thinking back to a few years ago with Henin, Clijsters, Mauresmo, Venus, Myskina, Dementieva and others mixed in with Sharapova, Davenport, Pierce - there was a cross section of really quick fast players and players who worked hard to compete with the more naturally athletic and quick players.

Safina, Wozniacki and now Azarenka is an indication how tennis is heading at this moment in time when claiming the top position. Solid and consistent play is getting the most reward on the medium paced surfaces we have today.

I should add as well that perhaps tennis is not attracting really fast athletic girls at present who knows, maybe they are going into other sports?

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=473015&highlight=al+davis :bigcry:

madmax
Mar 10th, 2013, 07:46 PM
Thats what im thinking too...Azerenka is playing kinda like Maria was back in the day...more consistent..so im thinking the match up would be the same.

LOL...the tennis IQ of this board is decreasing every day with posts like this. I'm 100 % sure you never watched pre-shoulder surgery Pova play if you compare her to current version on Vuvurenka

bobito
Mar 10th, 2013, 07:56 PM
LOL...the tennis IQ of this board is decreasing every day with posts like this. I'm 100 % sure you never watched pre-shoulder surgery Pova play if you compare her to current version on Vuvurenka

Agreed. The 2006 US Open final against Henin was the best I've seen Sharapova play. Anyone who thinks Azarenka is capable of playing like that needs to lay off the hard stuff.

Look this really isn't close. To beat Henin in any sort of form took a lot more game than Azarenka has. For a start, a serve like Vika's would not cut it against the player who broke serve more often than any player on the tour. Every service game would be a trial. On hard courts I'm sure Azarenka would make it respectable but on grass Henin would have had too many ways to beat her, slice, volleys and that glorious smash that never missed. On clay Justine would have played with her like a cat does a mouse..

Raiden
Mar 10th, 2013, 09:21 PM
I'm curious about this, they sadly never got to play before Henin retired. I feel like the consistent depth on Azarenka's shots would be able to pin Henin back behind the baseline just enough, to prevent her from taking charge of the rallies and that Azarenka's return would put a lot of pressure on Henin's wonky serve. Azarenka would of course struggle on her own service games, but I think she is able to place her second serve well enough into the Henin BH which is Henin's weaker return stroke, much like she does to the Ivanovic BH to prevent Anci's hyperagressive FH return.

Comparing the parts of their game...
FH: Henin
BH: equal, perhaps the edge for Azarenka as she is not limited in her return like Henin is because of her one-handedness (and height).It's the opposite. The fact Henin is not tall is an asset against Azza (look at how she struggles against Cibulkova).

Basically Azza would be toast. Their H2H would resemble that of Ju-Kuzzy.

memadd
Mar 11th, 2013, 09:01 AM
i think justine n vika played one match in 2007,pre-wimby,grass-warm up tourny...i forgot name..eastbourne .is it?

sorry..my mistake .......it was radwanska not vika

NashaMasha
Mar 11th, 2013, 10:03 AM
50% of Sharapova is still able to beat Azarenka in her best season twice, much slower Serena is able to beat 5 times in 6 matches..... For Henin this matchup vs Azarenka would have been like walking in the park

Her main weapon -consistency - would be just ineffective vs such player as Justine

JCTennisFan
Mar 11th, 2013, 10:30 AM
I don't think she'd do too well honestly.

Her best asset would be the ROS considering how many looks at 2nd serves she'd be getting from Justine.

But I don't think she would have quite enough power to outhit Henin, and she surely wouldn't defend better than Henin.

Nalby fan
Mar 11th, 2013, 02:06 PM
If a declining Daniela can expose Victoria at the net,then I shudder to think what a prime Justine would have done. :help:

Smitten
Mar 12th, 2013, 07:50 PM
Get real. Azarenka fucking sucks.

She can't beat Peak Henin, Peak Venus, Peak Serena, Peak Pierce, Peak Davenport, Peak Legend, or Peak Graf. Some of you deluded people in her making a case that Azarenka would trouble Henin.

LOL @ kick serve argument. What kick serve does Azarenka have? She has a shitty topspin serve that is far from overwhelming and the placement is mediocre at best.

Furthermore, Justine's BH was able to take on Serena's second serve INSIDE the baseline and on the rise (as she proved numerous times). Justine's BH attacked every second serve in the game. Azarenka's pathetic serve would only be a formality.

And let's just NOT with the rallies. A flop bitch will always flop.

dagamezbest
Mar 12th, 2013, 07:58 PM
Get real. Azarenka fucking sucks.

She can't beat Peak Henin, Peak Venus, Peak Serena, Peak Pierce, Peak Davenport, Peak Legend, or Peak Graf. Some of you deluded people in her making a case that Azarenka would trouble Henin.

LOL @ kick serve argument. What kick serve does Azarenka have? She has a shitty topspin serve that is far from overwhelming and the placement is mediocre at best.

Furthermore, Justine's BH was able to take on Serena's second serve INSIDE the baseline and on the rise (as she proved numerous times). Justine's BH attacked every second serve in the game. Azarenka's pathetic serve would only be a formality.

And let's just NOT with the rallies. A flop bitch will always flop.

This is very much true. Lets be honest here..the current top 10 would be destroyed by the top 10 of 2000-2008 (Serena, Venus, Amelie, Kim, Justine, Davenport, Elena, Pierce, Capriati). Even Dementieva would be running these girls all over the court. Just ask Sharapova. She played with most of these girls during the beginning of her career and struggled against almost all of them. She's glad most of them are gone now, she is just waiting on Serena to go away! If Azarenka played in this generation she would be lucky to make the bottom half of the top 10.

Fighterpova
Mar 12th, 2013, 08:00 PM
I love how you think Peak Dementieva is better than Peak Maria :rolls:

Fighterpova
Mar 12th, 2013, 08:03 PM
Maria was a pretty good player back in 2004-2006 when the tour had Peak Henin, Peak Mauresmo, Pear Clijsters, Davenport, Dementieva, Hingis, the Williams sisters, etc. She was a top player, even then, always in the Top 4-5, so it's not like she was No.15 back then and couldn't wait for all of them to retire :rolleyes:

Some people are just....can't even find an adjective...:happy:

dagamezbest
Mar 12th, 2013, 08:04 PM
I love how you think Peak Dementieva is better than Peak Maria :rolls:

I never said that Dementieva would run Sharapova around the court I was referring to the likes of Stosur, Errani,Wozniacki, Kvitova etc. We all know Elena struggled against Maria. One of the few players in that generation that Maria actually owned.

Fighterpova
Mar 12th, 2013, 08:06 PM
Well obviously that most of the top players today wouldn't have been in the top back in 2002-2007, but Maria WAS at the top then, so saying she was pretty much an irrelevant figure is just :facepalm:

Geisha
Mar 12th, 2013, 08:07 PM
Get real. Azarenka fucking sucks.

She can't beat Peak Henin, Peak Venus, Peak Serena, Peak Pierce, Peak Davenport, Peak Legend, or Peak Graf. Some of you deluded people in her making a case that Azarenka would trouble Henin.

LOL @ kick serve argument. What kick serve does Azarenka have? She has a shitty topspin serve that is far from overwhelming and the placement is mediocre at best.

Furthermore, Justine's BH was able to take on Serena's second serve INSIDE the baseline and on the rise (as she proved numerous times). Justine's BH attacked every second serve in the game. Azarenka's pathetic serve would only be a formality.

And let's just NOT with the rallies. A flop bitch will always flop.

This.

dagamezbest
Mar 12th, 2013, 08:07 PM
Maria was a pretty good player back in 2004-2006 when the tour had Peak Henin, Peak Mauresmo, Pear Clijsters, Davenport, Dementieva, Hingis, the Williams sisters, etc. She was a top player, even then, always in the Top 4-5, so it's not like she was No.15 back then and couldn't wait for all of them to retire :rolleyes:

Some people are just....can't even find an adjective...:happy:

Of course Maria was a top player back then! We are comparing generations. Maria was beating players ranked below her consistently but she was NOT consistently beating Williams, Davenport, Henin, or Clijsters which makes up the majority of that generation.

Fighterpova
Mar 12th, 2013, 08:11 PM
I know, I know but she wasn't exactly a pushover either. She did pretty well vs most of the top players and while she had major troubles with for example Henin or Mauresmo, she had a relatively close h2h and she didn't have such one-sided losses like she does now :facepalm:

And yeah, obviously, this generation is nothing compared to the old days. We had so many amazing champions in the past decade :awww:

However, I do think the tour is starting to shape up now after a few horrible years. 2012 was actually pretty good, solid top 3 dominant players, a lot of high quality matches and the top players proving they can be consistent. There have been way less shocking exits among top players as well and there aren't many random players that reach later stages of Slams either, so I think the tour has been improving.

I do think this year will be all about Vika/Serena tho.

doomsday
Mar 12th, 2013, 08:13 PM
Of course Maria was a top player back then! We are comparing generations. Maria was beating players ranked below her consistently but she was NOT consistently beating Williams, Davenport, Henin, or Clijsters which makes up the majority of that generation.

Maria lead the H2H 5-3 over Venus and beat her in 2004-2005 and 2007
She lead the H2H against Davenport and beat her in 2004-2005-2006
She started to own Clijsters in 2006 and beat her at San Diego, then YEC and then OZ2007.

You're saying a lot of shit, Maria was among the very best and beating them too that's why she won 3 majors during this time. Only Henin did better than her around this time :wavey:

Fighterpova
Mar 12th, 2013, 08:27 PM
Maria lead the H2H 5-3 over Venus and beat her in 2004-2005 and 2007
She lead the H2H against Davenport and beat her in 2004-2005-2006
She started to own Clijsters in 2006 and beat her at San Diego, then YEC and then OZ2007.

You're saying a lot of shit, Maria was among the very best and beating them too that's why she won 3 majors during this time. Only Henin did better than her around this time :wavey:

It's good that you edited your part about Maria and Serena winning the same number of Slams between 2004 and 2008 :lol: If you hadn't, this thread would have been locked in less than 2 days :lol:

NashaMasha
Mar 12th, 2013, 08:34 PM
Of course Maria was a top player back then! We are comparing generations. Maria was beating players ranked below her consistently but she was NOT consistently beating Williams, Davenport, Henin, or Clijsters which makes up the majority of that generation.

apart from Serenita nobody was really dominant against the rest of top players. Henin wasn't beating consistently Venus, Clijsters, Mauresmo, same for the other top players of that time.

iWill
Mar 12th, 2013, 09:03 PM
Get real. Azarenka fucking sucks.

She can't beat Peak Henin, Peak Venus, Peak Serena, Peak Pierce, Peak Davenport, Peak Legend, or Peak Graf. Some of you deluded people in her making a case that Azarenka would trouble Henin.

LOL @ kick serve argument. What kick serve does Azarenka have? She has a shitty topspin serve that is far from overwhelming and the placement is mediocre at best.

Furthermore, Justine's BH was able to take on Serena's second serve INSIDE the baseline and on the rise (as she proved numerous times). Justine's BH attacked every second serve in the game. Azarenka's pathetic serve would only be a formality.

And let's just NOT with the rallies. A flop bitch will always flop.
:worship: I would have LOVED to see Azarenka take a MTO against Henin and see how she reacted to it :lol:

This is very much true. Lets be honest here..the current top 10 would be destroyed by the top 10 of 2000-2008 (Serena, Venus, Amelie, Kim, Justine, Davenport, Elena, Pierce, Capriati). Even Dementieva would be running these girls all over the court. Just ask Sharapova. She played with most of these girls during the beginning of her career and struggled against almost all of them. She's glad most of them are gone now, she is just waiting on Serena to go away! If Azarenka played in this generation she would be lucky to make the bottom half of the top 10.

The 2000-2008 top players are arguably some of the best the women's tour have ever had. All of them will be inducted into the HOF...even Dementieva.

apart from Serenita nobody was really dominant against the rest of top players. Henin wasn't beating consistently Venus, Clijsters, Mauresmo, same for the other top players of that time.
Right none of them were truly dominant over each other. The only real skewed H2H is Henin and Venus :shrug:
Maria had a really tough time winning consistently at slams against Justine, Serena, Venus, Amelie, and Kim after her runs in 2004. They all saw her coming and it took her getting better and more consistent to beat them, especially Kim.

JCTennisFan
Mar 12th, 2013, 09:10 PM
Maria was a pretty good player back in 2004-2006 when the tour had Peak Henin, Peak Mauresmo, Pear Clijsters, Davenport, Dementieva, Hingis, the Williams sisters, etc. She was a top player, even then, always in the Top 4-5, so it's not like she was No.15 back then and couldn't wait for all of them to retire :rolleyes:

Some people are just....can't even find an adjective...:happy:

Please don't tell me you think that the Sharapova of 04-08 was the same player as the one we have currently....

The serve, the groundstrokes, the movement... everything has gone down hill.

Admittedly she is pretty incredible to come back from an injury that most wouldn't be able to (a Labrum tear) but post shoulder injury Sharapova is just not in the same league as her prior version... sorry.

JCTennisFan
Mar 12th, 2013, 09:14 PM
:worship: I would have LOVED to see Azarenka take a MTO against Henin and see how she reacted to it :lol:



The 2000-2008 top players are arguably some of the best the women's tour have ever had. All of them will be inducted into the HOF...even Dementieva.


Right none of them were truly dominant over each other. The only real skewed H2H is Henin and Venus :shrug:
Maria had a really tough time winning consistently at slams against Justine, Serena, Venus, Amelie, and Kim after her runs in 2004. They all saw her coming and it took her getting better and more consistent to beat them, especially Kim.

I would attribute Kim's losses to her during 06-07 to burnout and mentally not caring anymore.

She half assed her way through those two seasons for sure..... she is partially the reason why Mauresmo got that fluke of an AO 2006 title.

iWill
Mar 12th, 2013, 09:28 PM
I would attribute Kim's losses to her during 06-07 to burnout and mentally not caring anymore.

She half assed her way through those two seasons for sure..... she is partially the reason why Mauresmo got that fluke of an AO 2006 title.

If there were ever a case for a fluke slam winnner. I mean a retirement in the SF and Finals....:tape:

Olórin
Mar 12th, 2013, 09:36 PM
I would attribute Kim's losses to her during 06-07 to burnout and mentally not caring anymore.

She half assed her way through those two seasons for sure..... she is partially the reason why Mauresmo got that fluke of an AO 2006 title.

Mauresmo was in better form than Kim going into the AO 2006 and she'd just beaten her at the 2005 YECs which Kim was a favourite to win. Henin and Sharapova were far more prescient factors that AO. Mauresmo had a winning record against Sharpie and Henin quit after a set, so stop with your bullshit.

NashaMasha
Mar 12th, 2013, 10:30 PM
Mauresmo had a winning record against Sharpie

she had it also before being doublebagelled at USO that year

Martha is 28-28 vs Serena/Venus/Henin/Davenport/Hingis/Clijsters/Kuznetsova, what is pretty good, taking into account her H2H vs Sarin

JCTennisFan
Mar 13th, 2013, 12:08 AM
Mauresmo was in better form than Kim going into the AO 2006 and she'd just beaten her at the 2005 YECs which Kim was a favourite to win. Henin and Sharapova were far more prescient factors that AO. Mauresmo had a winning record against Sharpie and Henin quit after a set, so stop with your bullshit.

You expected the headcase that was Mauresmo to win a slam at that point in time without getting some serious help?

And she "was coming in with better form" after Kim had laid waste to the field during the summer HC swing as well as at the USO? You seem to forget that up until that point the YEC was the best accomplishment Mauresmo had (as well as a lone Final Appearance at a slam 7 years prior.......)

:lol:

You funny girl!

I guess Novotna could have won two slams too if Hingis had simply retired after the first set at W in 97... :spit:

Matt01
Mar 13th, 2013, 12:34 AM
You expected the headcase that was Mauresmo to win a slam at that point in time without getting some serious help?

And she "was coming in with better form" after Kim had laid waste to the field during the summer HC swing as well as at the USO? You seem to forget that up until that point the YEC was the best accomplishment Mauresmo had (as well as a lone Final Appearance at a slam 7 years prior.......)

:lol:

You funny girl!

I guess Novotna could have won two slams too if Hingis had simply retired after the first set at W in 97... :spit:


:lol:

This.

Brad[le]y.
Mar 13th, 2013, 01:59 AM
Get real. Azarenka fucking sucks.

She can't beat Peak Henin, Peak Venus, Peak Serena, Peak Pierce, Peak Davenport, Peak Legend, or Peak Graf. Some of you deluded people in her making a case that Azarenka would trouble Henin.

LOL @ kick serve argument. What kick serve does Azarenka have? She has a shitty topspin serve that is far from overwhelming and the placement is mediocre at best.

Furthermore, Justine's BH was able to take on Serena's second serve INSIDE the baseline and on the rise (as she proved numerous times). Justine's BH attacked every second serve in the game. Azarenka's pathetic serve would only be a formality.

And let's just NOT with the rallies. A flop bitch will always flop.

Harsh but true.

Passierschlag
Mar 29th, 2013, 05:30 PM
y.;25464642']Harsh but true.

I don't agree in the slightest.

machinist
Apr 21st, 2013, 10:39 AM
Azarenka is really underrated I think. She would be a difficult matchup for a peak Henin but also I think she would comfortably have been top 5 in the seasons 2000-2005 as well. Especially Davenport would have suffered against her with her poor movements.

dark_marco
Apr 29th, 2013, 08:33 AM
Azarenka would eat henin alive. especially her serve. henin was almost beaten by wozniacki so you know azarenka would beat her alot.

Brad[le]y.
Apr 29th, 2013, 10:54 AM
Why is this thread still alive? Henin in straight sets, everywhere.