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Matchpoint down
Dec 19th, 2011, 07:54 AM
Based on their performances at 1)The Grand Slam tournaments 2)other major tournaments (Virginia Slims/Colgate/Avon/Toyota Championships, Olympic Games, Lipton Championships) 3)Tournament wins 4)Rankings (highest ranking, sum of years in the top 10) and 5)mixed and doubles at the Grand Slams plus Federation Cup, I made a ranking of the most succesful players of that decade.

1) Navratilova
2) Evert
3) Graf
4) Mandlikova
5) Austin
6) Shriver
7) Sukova
8) Sabatini
9) Jaeger
10) Turnbull
11) Garrison
12) Hanika
13) Kohde
14) Sanchez
15) Cawley

austinrunner
Dec 19th, 2011, 10:21 AM
Good for you.
http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=5771

Matchpoint down
Dec 19th, 2011, 11:37 AM
Lol

Joseosu19
Dec 21st, 2011, 11:40 PM
Good for you.
http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=5771
:rolleyes: What is your problem?

Joseosu19
Dec 21st, 2011, 11:41 PM
Based on their performances at 1)The Grand Slam tournaments 2)other major tournaments (Virginia Slims/Colgate/Avon/Toyota Championships, Olympic Games, Lipton Championships) 3)Tournament wins 4)Rankings (highest ranking, sum of years in the top 10) and 5)mixed and doubles at the Grand Slams plus Federation Cup, I made a ranking of the most succesful players of that decade.

1) Navratilova
2) Evert
3) Graf
4) Mandlikova
5) Austin
6) Shriver
7) Sukova
8) Sabatini
9) Jaeger
10) Turnbull
11) Garrison
12) Hanika
13) Kohde
14) Sanchez
15) Cawley
Interesting, just curious if you used a specific point system and if so how you scored it?

justineheninfan
Jan 5th, 2012, 12:44 AM
I would go with Graf at #2. Her Grand Slam and 88, 89, even 87 years trump anything Evert did combined that decade. Evert won exactly 1 more slam, that does not overcome an achievement like the Grand Slam and 2 or 3 years of total dominance. Also being the clear queen bea for several years is better than picking up the pieces when Navratilova and to some degree Austin faltered over a large span of years. My order would be:

1. Navratilova
2. Graf
3. Evert
4. Mandlikova
5. Austin
6. Sabatini
7. Jaeger
8. Goolagong- only due to Wimbledon title in 1980, only real achievement of the decade she had
9. Sukova
10. Shriver- no slam finals or big titles really

Sumarokov-Elston
Jan 5th, 2012, 12:10 PM
I would go with Graf at #2. Her Grand Slam and 88, 89, even 87 years trump anything Evert did combined that decade. Evert won exactly 1 more slam, that does not overcome an achievement like the Grand Slam and 2 or 3 years of total dominance. Also being the clear queen bea for several years is better than picking up the pieces when Navratilova and to some degree Austin faltered over a large span of years.

Interesting: I would say the exact opposite, that if we are talking of a decade, then it is better to be consistent, rather than dominant in two to three years.

Also, Evert is clearly the top clay-court player of the 1980s and the second-best player on grass for the 1980s (winning three slams on grass in the age of peak Navratilova).

Beating Navratilova in the 1982 Australian Open final on grass or Tracy Austin in the 1980 US Open final (when both were top seeds, world number 1 and defending champions) is hardly "picking up the pieces when Navratilova and to some degree Austin faltered". Both players were at the peaks of their game at the time. And she also double-bagelled these said players - and had a higher winning percentage than Graf in the 1980s.

Matchpoint down
Jan 5th, 2012, 01:14 PM
Evert was superior to Graf in 4 out of 5 categories.
Shriver won a lot of tournaments and had a great record in doubles, that's basically how she became no. 6 on the list. Shriver, Sukova, Sabatini, Jaeger are very close though.
Goolagong had nothing but the Wimbledon title and being no. 5 in 1980.

Sumarokov-Elston
Jan 5th, 2012, 03:59 PM
For all the discussions and agony over who was No. 1 in 1981 or 1987 or 1985 or 1982, I thought that your list was very well done, Matchpoint down, and you could not really quibble with anything, which is a great rarity!

Interesting, if Cawley had not won Wimbledon in 1980, could BJK have sneaked in at #15 on account of her very good showings at Wimbledon 1980-83???

justineheninfan
Jan 5th, 2012, 04:43 PM
Interesting: I would say the exact opposite, that if we are talking of a decade, then it is better to be consistent, rather than dominant in two to three years.

Also, Evert is clearly the top clay-court player of the 1980s and the second-best player on grass for the 1980s (winning three slams on grass in the age of peak Navratilova).

Beating Navratilova in the 1982 Australian Open final on grass or Tracy Austin in the 1980 US Open final (when both were top seeds, world number 1 and defending champions) is hardly "picking up the pieces when Navratilova and to some degree Austin faltered". Both players were at the peaks of their game at the time. And she also double-bagelled these said players - and had a higher winning percentage than Graf in the 1980s.

I absolutely dont consider Evert the 2nd best grass courter of the 80s. She had 2 chances per year to win slams on grass, Graf had only 1 realistically unless you expected her to be winning slams at 16 or younger. Graf won Wimbledon twice by beating Navratilova in the final, even if a slightly older version. Evert won one Wimbledon that decade by beating Mandlikova in the final. Do you really doubt for a moment Graf would have won the 88 and 89 Australian Opens if they were on grass as well. Saying Evert was better on grass than Graf in the 80s would be like saying Court was better on grass than Navratilova since she won 7 more grass slams playing in an era 3 were contested (and one sparsely participated).

The only surface I rate Evert above Graf in the 80s is clay, although Graf from 86-89 was the best clay courter in the World despite Everts 86 French Open title after a clay season of total dominance by Graf up to that point.

It is not like Graf was inconsistent that decade. She was 13-16 years old when she wasnt having any huge success. Evert didnt achieve anything at those ages either, heck she barely played any matches on tour at those ages. Graf was atleast winning tournaments at 16. She basically achieved as much or more in a few years of puberty abled tennis than Evert managed the whole decade as a fully abled women, probably in her prime for 2/3rds of it as well.

I actually am in the minority rating Evert probably above Graf all time, but in the 80s I rate Graf over Evert clearly, and it isnt even close for me. Grafs best years that decade were on par with Martinas, although Martina obviously is far ahead overall. Everts best years that decade are light years behind both. Graf was by far the best in the late 80s, there is no point in the 80s Evert was by clearly the best or remotedly dominant. The early 80s were wide open, and the middle 80s were all Martina.

Sumarokov-Elston
Jan 5th, 2012, 08:24 PM
Graf was by far the best in the late 80s, there is no point in the 80s Evert was by clearly the best or remotedly dominant. The early 80s were wide open, and the middle 80s were all Martina.

My take on it is this. Graf was best in the last two and a half years (clearly 1988 and 1989, 1987 split with Martina). Evert was the best in the first two and a half years (clearly 1980 and 1981, 1982 was decided at YEC [when Evert demolished Tracy Austin 6-0, 6-0] as Chris won both USO and AO). So that leaves the middle years of 1983-1986 to decide and every one of those clearly goes to Evert - you could kindly give 1986 to Graf, but that would mean overloooking Chris's French Open title.

I think Evert was clearly dominant in the whole of 1980. At Wimbledon 1981 no one could touch her. At the Australian Open in 1982 she ran through absolutely everyone. And for those three years she was only beaten once on clay!

justineheninfan
Jan 5th, 2012, 11:15 PM
My take on it is this. Graf was best in the last two and a half years (clearly 1988 and 1989, 1987 split with Martina). Evert was the best in the first two and a half years (clearly 1980 and 1981, 1982 was decided at YEC [when Evert demolished Tracy Austin 6-0, 6-0] as Chris won both USO and AO). So that leaves the middle years of 1983-1986 to decide and every one of those clearly goes to Evert - you could kindly give 1986 to Graf, but that would mean overloooking Chris's French Open title.

I think Evert was clearly dominant in the whole of 1980. At Wimbledon 1981 no one could touch her. At the Australian Open in 1982 she ran through absolutely everyone. And for those three years she was only beaten once on clay!

Evert was at best a shaky best in 1980 and 1981. That cant even be compared to Graf in 1988 and 1989 who was the runaway best, chasms ahead of everyone else ala Martina in 83 and 84, and posted two of the best years ever. To put those two years on par with each other as if they were equal is a joke.

Martina was also clearly the best in 1982, Chris does not share the #1 honor for 1982 in any sense or come close to doing so despite both winning 2 majors, while Graf clearly deserved #1 in 1987. Even if you want to argue 1987 as a split based on Martinas Wimbledon and U.S Open titles, which you would be in the vast minority on given the extremity of the other stats this year, there is no argument for 1982 being a split. If Evert had a claim to being the best in 1982 if she won the YEC it is meaningless as it turns out she didnt, was never expected to anyway, and she was clearly behind Martina before the event and overall up to any given point in the year even with both winning 2 majors (the latter two so you have no argument for Chris being the best the first half of 1982, she was in fact much further behind at that point). As Martinas infamous ex Nancy Lieberman said at the time it never should have been in debate even if Chris had pulled an upset and won the YEC as all the stats were clearly in Martinas favor, but Chris and her popularity with the ITF is the only thing that could have made it so, in the highly unlikely event Chris had even won the 1982 YEC over Martina in the final that is.

Even if you want to approach things from your perspective fact is Graf was #1 in 1987 which gives her 3 years as the #1 player, and Evert was not #1 in 1982 which gives her only 2 years. Graf was also the unaminous choice as Player of the Year by all bodies in 1987, which Chris was not in 1980, and was one RR match at the YEC from not being in 1981, which makes it all the more funny how you give Graf only partial credit as the #1 in 1987 yet Chris full credit for both 1980 and 1981. Fact is based on the ranking and voters Graf was the undisputed #1 for 3 different years, while Chris was the #1 ranked player for two years, and was not the unaminous pick as so in atleast 1 of those 2.

Evert was not dominant in 1980 with a 1-3 record vs Tracy Austin, being ranked #2 or #3 alot of the year and the WTA even named Austin Player of the Year over Evert. Also many would say the 4 biggest events at the time were really Wimbledon, U.S open, Avon, and Toyota, and she won only 1 of the 4 (Austin failed to win any of the 4 slams but did win both the Avon and Toyota Championships). As I said at best a shaky best. The best player of 1981 was also debated heavily between Martina, Chris, and Tracy Austin as well, all of whom had 1 slam title for the year, with Tracy winning the YEC title as well which arguably gave her the better year. Wrong on all levels to compare that to Grafs 88 and 89 clear cut dominance over the field, or even make it out to be a cut above Grafs 1987 which in fact was also a much better overall year than either Chris 1980 or 1981 years.

Lastly being better than a 13-16 year old Graf from 1983-1985 is hardly anything to toot about. It is akin to those stupid Graf fanatics who gush of Grafs dominance of a 15 year old Seles in 1989.

Matchpoint down
Jan 7th, 2012, 03:45 AM
Graf didn't win a tournament except for the Olympics in 84, until 1986. This here is about a DECADE not about 2 to 3 great years.
Evert won more Grand Slam titles, she won more tournament titles, she was in the top 10 more often, she won more doubles/mixed doubles/Federation Cup titles, the only category where Graf was better was Olympic Games/Championships/Lipton.
Evert was a clear no.2 in fact according to those numbers.

Yes, Graf was more dominant in 88 and 89 than Evert in the early 80s, but that does not make up for the fact that anything that Graf played before 1986 (except for the Olympics) didn't get her on any list at all.

Matchpoint down
Jan 7th, 2012, 03:52 AM
Sumarokov, thanks for the compliment!
As for BJ King, no, a quarterfinal and 2 semifinals plus a no.6 at the year end rankings were not enough. She should have won a major or be a number 5 at the end of a year.
As for 1980 I don't think Evert was dominating. She was the number 3 for most of the year, Austin being no. 1, until that US Open semi, which decided IMO the number 1 decision for that year. Austin was not the number one at the end of 1980, she had not won a GS tournament. However IMO Austin was the no.1 in 1981, at the time she was better than the rest. h2h against Evert and Navratilova and her US Open win and Toyota Championships win prove that.