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View Full Version : PEAK Saga Continues: Rank These 3 From Best to Worst


Alejandrawrrr
Dec 16th, 2011, 10:37 PM
Venus Williams, Justine Henin, Kim Clijsters. The lesser three of the "Big Four," these three ladies all have one surface they stand out on. Venus is the best of her era on Grass(ATM,) Justine is the best of her era on Clay, Kim is second best of her era on Hard and has credentials on par with the other two at their best surface. Taking into account both their peak levels on the surface, and their greatness relative to other greats on the surface, rank these women from 1-3, 1 being most impressive, 3 being least.

dsanders06
Dec 16th, 2011, 10:39 PM
Peak Pierce.

Smitten
Dec 16th, 2011, 10:40 PM
Legend.

dsanders06
Dec 16th, 2011, 10:40 PM
In all seriousness, in terms of peak levels:

HARDCOURTS
01 Clijsters
02 Henin
03 Venus

GRASS
01 Venus
02 Henin
03 Clijsters

CLAY
01 Henin
02 Clijsters
03 Venus

Matt01
Dec 16th, 2011, 10:52 PM
Hard to say.

Craig.
Dec 16th, 2011, 10:54 PM
I honestly don't see how Kim on hard can be compared to Justine on clay or Venus on grass. I feel like those two are just in another league when it comes to ''their'' respective surfaces.

dsanders06
Dec 16th, 2011, 10:57 PM
Oh, I misunderstood the thread :lol:

Probably Justine on clay > Venus on grass > Kim on hardcourts

Venus had a rival relatively close to her in Serena on grass, whereas Justine was in a whole league of her own on clay :shrug: Plus Venus suffered a couple of defeats at Wimbledon even in her prime years (not only to Serena), whereas Justine in her prime was always the runaway favourite at every single RG.

JCTennisFan
Dec 16th, 2011, 10:57 PM
In all seriousness, in terms of peak levels:

HARDCOURTS
01 Clijsters
02 Henin
03 Venus

GRASS
01 Venus
02 Henin
03 Clijsters

CLAY
01 Henin
02 Clijsters
03 Venus

This.

JCTennisFan
Dec 16th, 2011, 11:03 PM
I think who is better at their "choice" surface is really too hard to properly distinguish. If anything this thread is just gonna show who is a better one trick pony versus who can do well on all surfaces. Out of the group Venus over time has become the most unversatile when talking about surfaces. Henin at her peak was the most versatile of the group but at the same time she is the only one of the three that could be overpowered.

Alejandrawrrr
Dec 16th, 2011, 11:22 PM
Noteworthy stats:

Venus' results starting from her first Grass slam win until her last: W, W, F, F, 2R, W, 3R, W, W

Justine's results starting from her first Clay slam win until her last: W, 2R, W, W, W

Kim's results starting from her first Hard slam win until her last: W, SF, SF, W, 3R, W, W
(To clarify, the above includes: 05 USO, 06 AO, 07 AO, 09 USO, 10 AO, 10 USO, 11 AO.)

Venus has 1 additional Grass final(2009) outside of her winning years.
Kim has 2 additional Hard finals(2003 USO, 2004 AO) outside of her winning years.

Apoleb
Dec 16th, 2011, 11:25 PM
I can make a case for Kim because very few can play on grass or clay to start with. :oh:

mistymore
Dec 16th, 2011, 11:26 PM
Henin is by far the best clay court player of this era. Nobody even comes close, not Serena, not Venus, not Kim, not Kuznetsova, not Ivanovic, not Sharapova. Justine has a huge margin over all of them on clay. Venus is not clearly the best grass court player of this era due to Serena. She might be the best but it is very close with her and Serena. Kim is clearly not the best hard court player of this era which overall is Serena. The of Henin on clay > Venus on grass > Kim on hard courts is an obvious one.

As for all time ranking Henin is top 4 all time on clay, Venus is top 8 all time on grass, Kim is top 10 all time on hard courts but hard courts has only been around since 1978 so that isnt saying as much.

Sam L
Dec 16th, 2011, 11:29 PM
Kim Clijsters is the most overrated player around here seriously. People talk about how weak the last years have been and yet no one talks about how she is the one who has benefited the most from it. Nothing wrong it but she was a one slam wonder in her first career with greater and better competition.

That says something about her and her current competition.

mistymore
Dec 16th, 2011, 11:31 PM
Kim Clijsters is the most overrated player around here seriously. People talk about how weak the last years have been and yet no one talks about how she is the one who has benefited the most from it. Nothing wrong it but she was a one slam wonder in her first career with greater and better competition.

That says something about her and her current competition.

I agree. People forget when Kim retired she was rated as the 6th best hard courter of her era far behind Venus, Serena, Davenport, Henin, and Sharapova. Her late career bulge by beating Li Na in slam semis and finals is what has suddenly pushed her into 2nd on hard courts for some which is ridiculous.

ExtremespeedX
Dec 16th, 2011, 11:31 PM
Henin is by far the best clay court player of this era. Nobody even comes close, not Serena, not Venus, not Kim, not Kuznetsova, not Ivanovic, not Sharapova. Justine has a huge margin over all of them on clay. Venus is not clearly the best grass court player of this era due to Serena. She might be the best but it is very close with her and Serena. Kim is clearly not the best hard court player of this era which overall is Serena. The of Henin on clay > Venus on grass > Kim on hard courts is an obvious one.

As for all time ranking Henin is top 4 all time on clay, Venus is top 8 all time on grass, Kim is top 10 all time on hard courts but hard courts has only been around since 1978 so that isnt saying as much.

Henin also had zero legit competition on clay...unlike Venus on grass. old Pierce, pigeon Kuznetsova and choking Anci in finals.

Alejandrawrrr
Dec 16th, 2011, 11:32 PM
I can make a case for Kim because very few can play on grass or clay to start with. :oh:

One could also say Grassnus and Claytine are at a disadvantage because they only get one chance a year on their favorite surface, while Kim has two :oh:

OTOH, I don't know anyone in their right mind who can deny she's the one most likely of these three to improve on her record.

mistymore
Dec 16th, 2011, 11:33 PM
I honestly don't see how Kim on hard can be compared to Justine on clay or Venus on grass. I feel like those two are just in another league when it comes to ''their'' respective surfaces.

Justine and Venus on hard courts can be compared to Kim, many would think one or better are greater on hard courts. So rating Kim on hard courts against Justine on clay or Venus on grass is just silly.

There are Kim vs Justine polls on hard courts. Would there ever be a Kim vs Venus poll on grass or a Kim vs Justine poll on clay.

dsanders06
Dec 16th, 2011, 11:34 PM
One could also say Grassnus and Claytine are at a disadvantage because they only get one chance a year on their favorite surface, while Kim has two :oh:

OTOH, I don't know anyone in their right mind who can deny she's the one most likely of these three to improve on her record.

Yup. I firmly expect Kim to win her 4th US Open title in a row in 2012, which will establish her as the best fast hardcourt player of her generation :rocker2:

Though Serena will remain the best slow hardcourt player.

Sam L
Dec 16th, 2011, 11:34 PM
If we consider the best by strength of competition which is what I like to measure players' success by, it'll be:

1. Venus
2. Justine
.
.
.
.
3. Kim

On any surface. Venus would have Venus Slam if it weren't for Serena.

mistymore
Dec 16th, 2011, 11:38 PM
Henin also had zero legit competition on clay...unlike Venus on grass. old Pierce, pigeon Kuznetsova and choking Anci in finals.

Serena is 1-4 against Henin on clay. Who would have been tougher. Fact is Henin is too good for all the others on clay. It isnt her fault she is too good on the surface to have any competition on it.

ExtremespeedX
Dec 16th, 2011, 11:44 PM
Serena is 1-4 against Henin on clay. Who would have been tougher. Fact is Henin is too good for all the others on clay. It isnt her fault she is too good on the surface to have any competition on it.

:rolleyes: Serena is a mug on clay, she doesn't adjust to the surface well at all and plays it like it's hard court... just like everyone else to be honest :shrug: She faced zero clay specialists who could attack her one hander with spin and kick serves.

...Stosur proved what potential nightmare she can be on slow, high bouncing clay for Henin just by breaking down her bh with topspin. Henin never faced great clay courters - only hard court specialists playing their hard court game, which she obviously beat.

Alejandrawrrr
Dec 16th, 2011, 11:45 PM
Henin is by far the best clay court player of this era. Nobody even comes close, not Serena, not Venus, not Kim, not Kuznetsova, not Ivanovic, not Sharapova. Justine has a huge margin over all of them on clay. Venus is not clearly the best grass court player of this era due to Serena. She might be the best but it is very close with her and Serena. Kim is clearly not the best hard court player of this era which overall is Serena. The of Henin on clay > Venus on grass > Kim on hard courts is an obvious one.

As for all time ranking Henin is top 4 all time on clay, Venus is top 8 all time on grass, Kim is top 10 all time on hard courts but hard courts has only been around since 1978 so that isnt saying as much.

Also for consideration: Grass used to be played at 3 venues - Wimbledon of course, as well as the US Open until 1975, and the Aussie Open until '88. Clay was played at 2 - both the French, as well as the US from 75 through 77. Because of this, the all time list probably looks a little different than it should. which is partly why I included in the OP to take into account the level of tennis and/or dominance they displayed as well(which of course is more subjective, but the numbers don't tell the full story.)

Apoleb
Dec 16th, 2011, 11:50 PM
One could also say Grassnus and Claytine are at a disadvantage because they only get one chance a year on their favorite surface, while Kim has two :oh:


Oh, that sort of snatched my wig. :crying2:

justineheninfan
Dec 16th, 2011, 11:53 PM
Venus on grass slightly over Henin on clay. 5 Wimbledons for Venus to 4 French Opens for Justine. Kim on hard courts a very distant 3rd. 2 hard court slams so she averaged only 2 at each.

KBdoubleu
Dec 16th, 2011, 11:53 PM
Oh, I misunderstood the thread :lol:

Probably Justine on clay > Venus on grass > Kim on hardcourts

Venus had a rival relatively close to her in Serena on grass, whereas Justine was in a whole league of her own on clay :shrug: Plus Venus suffered a couple of defeats at Wimbledon even in her prime years (not only to Serena), whereas Justine in her prime was always the runaway favourite at every single RG.

Who did Venus lose to at Wimbledon other than Serena while in her prime years (usually regarded as 00-03...maybe '99 where she was 18 and lost to Graf in a three set match after which Graf lauded her as a definite future champion of the event)? Venus has more titles and finals at Wimbledon than Henin does at RG. Venus also has played in an era where many top players play very well on her best surface. Clay is the weakest surface of almost all of Henin's biggest rivals other than Clijsters (Venus, Serena, Sharapova, Davenport, and possibly Mauresmo) - yet Venus is more accomplished at the slam of the surface of her choice.

Brad[le]y.
Dec 17th, 2011, 12:00 AM
Yup. I firmly expect Kim to win her 4th US Open title in a row in 2012, which will establish her as the best fast hardcourt player of her generation :rocker2:

Though Serena will remain the best slow hardcourt player.

since when is| W DNP DNP DNP W W DNP W| four in a row? :spit: besides that slam will have Serena in the draw; also Rus and Petrova will be there too.

justineheninfan
Dec 17th, 2011, 12:01 AM
The field on grass is way stronger than the field on clay. Henin is only the 5th or 6th best grass courter of her era behind Venus, Serena, Davenport, Mauresmo, and maybe Sharapova, and is really a better grass courter than the 2nd best clay courter behind Henin is a clay courter (whoever you think that is- Kuznetsova, Serena, or Ivanovic). Henin was both lucky with the weak clay field and unlucky with the very strong grass field where despite being her worst surface she was still potential champions caliber on.

Pops Maellard
Dec 17th, 2011, 12:49 AM
Um the top one pretty much. Or maybe the second one. But I voted the top one.

coolfish1103
Dec 17th, 2011, 01:11 AM
There are too many HC tournaments to justify the wins.

She is good on fast hard courts, and that's about it.

---

Who is that on your avatar? It seems like a book.

chingching
Dec 17th, 2011, 01:53 AM
How could anyone put Venus in front of Justine? I mean, Justine at her best on clay was unbeatable. Venus still had Serena. But Kim isn't very dominant on hardcourt. Even Serena is more dominant. You could almost say Wozniacki (except for the end of her season)

justineheninfan
Dec 17th, 2011, 02:46 AM
How could anyone put Venus in front of Justine? I mean, Justine at her best on clay was unbeatable. Venus still had Serena.

That is the thing though. Henin at her best was unbeatable on clay since she there wasnt anyone on clay (other than Justine herself) who was really great like the Williams on grass. The Williams, Sharapova, and Clijsters are all not first class clay courters, and the other top clay courters like Kuznetsova and Ivanovic are Henin's pigeons and not in her league on any surface. The top 2 clay courters before Henin completely took over were: Capriati who was only about the 10th best clay courter of the 90s, and Serena who would never reach another FO semi once Henin won her first FO title. That already says enough about the clay era, plus the players who won RG since Henin's first retirement. If Henin played in the 90s with Graf, Seles, Sanchez Vicario, Sabatini, Martinez, and others I doubt she would look so unbeatable on clay, a major force for sure, but she would be challenged.