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View Full Version : ChairUmpire should be BANNED and NEVER allowed to chair a final again!!!!!


Mr Luis Gonzalez
Nov 12th, 2002, 04:18 AM
Congrats to Kim for playing a good match BUT I CANNOT go without stating that Serena was ROBBED of the first set from the COMPLETE IDIOT CHAIR who overuled Serena's ball that was IN but overuled out that would have given Serena 4-2 up and consequently the set.

The chair is ONLY supossed to overrule a shot that is CLEARLY IN or OUT! NOT what they felt over the line-judge! I am thoroughly disgusted that the chair would overrule a shot that WAS NOT clearly out and ruined the outcome of a championship title match!


The linespeople were doing a great job the whole week and to overule at this stage of a match was a TRAVESTY!!

BK4ever
Nov 12th, 2002, 04:27 AM
Get over it, you win some and you lose some. Serena also won the point that gave Kim 30-30 in the final game. It would have been 2bp's for serena, but those are the breaks. Kim deserved the win...she made less errors.

Playa
Nov 12th, 2002, 04:30 AM
good point , that chickenhead should be ashamed of himself.

Mr Luis Gonzalez
Nov 12th, 2002, 04:34 AM
YOU get over being robbed! BIG difference in a POINT than a GAME !! That point would NOT have given Kim the set and it WAS NOT overuled! Missed the point I see.

cynicole
Nov 12th, 2002, 04:38 AM
I think that chair umpire is retiring anyway.

BK4ever
Nov 12th, 2002, 04:38 AM
Mr. Luis...I got your point, but those are the breaks. Serena had multiple other opps to win the first set and she failed to capitalize. After breaking Kim, she raced out to 40-0 or 40-15 on her service games and failed to win them everytime.

Its clear she was off tonight, I mean when do you see anybody break Serena that much. She won 3 slams this year, I'm sure she is not crying over this loss

CC
Nov 12th, 2002, 04:40 AM
Was Anne Lasser the same one at last year's year-end champs semi between Kim and Lindsay?

irma
Nov 12th, 2002, 04:41 AM
Kimmy is a fighter, you can never count her out at any point, neither serena would lose anymore because of a bad point

they are way too good for that :cool:

2284
Nov 12th, 2002, 04:45 AM
Originally posted by Mr Luis Gonzalez
Congrats to Kim for playing a good match BUT I CANNOT go without stating that Serena was ROBBED of the first set from the COMPLETE IDIOT CHAIR who overuled Serena's ball that was IN but overuled out that would have given Serena 4-2 up and consequently the set.

The chair is ONLY supossed to overrule a shot that is CLEARLY IN or OUT! NOT what they felt over the line-judge! I am thoroughly disgusted that the chair would overrule a shot that WAS NOT clearly out and ruined the outcome of a championship title match!


The linespeople were doing a great job the whole week and to overule at this stage of a match was a TRAVESTY!!
All players get a bad call against them at some stage. Yes, it's wrong, but we just have to deal with it.

Mr Luis Gonzalez
Nov 12th, 2002, 04:46 AM
BK4ver the point is moot after the OVERULE because had the OVERULE NOT happened the set was Serena's in the bag! She didnt need chances to still win the set because the nature of games following the overule would have given serena the set.

Williams Rulez
Nov 12th, 2002, 04:46 AM
Oh you know, that particular chair umpire was the one which drove Lindsay mad last year... and she is the one which always drives Capriati mad...

I'm so glad we won't be seeing anymore of her next year... :rolleyes:

But Serena's lost cannot be attributed to that, she had many other chances to win the first set. It is her fault for letting Kim back in.

TSequoia01
Nov 12th, 2002, 04:47 AM
Serena was not going to win tonight. Kim was the better player in the match. Truth is Serena did not come to this tournament inform. She was not even that disappointed because she had not prepared properly. The fact that she got to the finals is amazing she has said as much herself. She made other choices rather than prepare for this tourney. She herself said due to the way she was playing, she was amazed she reached the finals. But this will serve her well. Both Sisters will be ready for the Aussie. :cool:

Mr Luis Gonzalez
Nov 12th, 2002, 04:49 AM
Some of you dont seem to understand. Linespeople make good calls makes bad calls thats the breaks and sometimes throughout a match it evens out, BUT for a CHAIRUMPIRE to OVERULE a call that was NOT clearly a mistake is my gripe! She had NO business to overule the call when it was NOT clearly out! That call determined a set!

Dokicfan17
Nov 12th, 2002, 04:52 AM
big whoooop dude one bad call, serena was not robbed, she purely SUCKED !!!!! soooooooooooooooo many errors!!! c'mon now, Kim played soooo well, one lil line call didnt make a diff cuz serena couldnt even keep the ball in play

so you need to get over that kim purely beat serena 7-5 6-3 STRAIGHT SETS!! serena lost get over it

Playa
Nov 12th, 2002, 04:52 AM
Mr. Luis...I got your point, but those are the breaks. Serena had multiple other opps to win the first set and she failed to capitalize. After breaking Kim, she raced out to 40-0 or 40-15 on her service games and failed to win them everytime.

I have to agree , she was leading 5-3 in the 1st set.
when she's on she's the toughest player to break.
she was simply tired, but you have to give credit to KIM too.
i mean,THIS IS THE LAST PLACE TO GET TIRED. (imho)

Williams Rulez
Nov 12th, 2002, 04:55 AM
Originally posted by Mr Luis Gonzalez
Some of you dont seem to understand. Linespeople make good calls makes bad calls thats the breaks and sometimes throughout a match it evens out, BUT for a CHAIRUMPIRE to OVERULE a call that was NOT clearly a mistake is my gripe! She had NO business to overule the call when it was NOT clearly out! That call determined a set! Well too bad, that empire did that to Lindsay 4-4 in the last set last year as well, but Lindsay won. Shows that if you have the goods, you will win no matter.

But she is 1 silly umpire... :rolleyes:

DiZZiA
Nov 12th, 2002, 04:55 AM
Yeah... Sometimes the Chair Umpires are just complete idiots!! Still remember that dickhead who overruled the ball which landed on the far side during the Wimby match b/w Ferrira & Chickenman....... :(

Very unfortunately, the players have to live with it!!! :angel:

I still feel like there should be video replays to clear any doubtful calls... Also, to embarass those bloody stupid Chair Umpires when they've made the wrong calls..... :rolleyes:

Jakeev
Nov 12th, 2002, 04:56 AM
Wowwwwwwwwwwww Luiz Gonzalez lives.........what graveyard or mortuary have you been hiding in?

Glad to see your still your "warm" and "bubbly" self though......

2284
Nov 12th, 2002, 04:57 AM
Originally posted by DiZZiA
Yeah... Sometimes the Chair Umpires are just complete idiots!! Still remember that dickhead who overruled the ball which landed on the far side during the Wimby match b/w Ferrira & Chickenman....... :(


That is the WORST overrule I've seen. Ferreira was so (justifiably) pissed off when he saw the replay

Rubylips
Nov 12th, 2002, 04:59 AM
sERENA WAS JUST PLAIN TIRED

HAIL-VENUS
Nov 12th, 2002, 05:01 AM
That was only one bad call, but Serena clearly had plenty of chances to win the first set. I knew that she'd lost the match when she let Kim back in after having two chances to close out the set. Serena didn't train properly for this tournament and she paid the price. Serena is a smart woman and she will definitely be better prepared in the future, but she did not lose this match because of a line call that didn't go her way. She was visibly too tired to have to win a match in three sets tonight.

Mr Luis Gonzalez
Nov 12th, 2002, 05:07 AM
I give Kim credit she deserves full credit my gripe is with the CHAIR not KIm! The call determined the set I tell you I will show you what I mean:


It was 3-2 Serena serving Serena had game point, her winner was OVERULED to be UP 4-2! Not just a bad call where it would have been 30-15, 30-30, deuce, or something like that it was a game ROBBED by the OVERULE. Had the chair not overuled (and the shot was GOOD) serena would have been up 4-2

instead 3-3

Ok now.....Serena breaks! 4-3 SHOULD have been 5-2

NEXT Serena HOLDS that was the set 6-2....understand. None of the would of could ofs should haves would have mattered if the CALL was NOT overuled in the first place when it was actually GOOD!

thats my point! That ONE call that ROBBED serena the game and eventually the set!

There I explained it. ANYBODY who was following the match as closely as I was after the OVERULE would understand and even after this explanation it should be undertood that Serena was robbed by the CHAIR NOT KIm. Kim did what she had to do and all credit to her.

Fedcup
Nov 12th, 2002, 05:09 AM
Originally posted by Mr Luis Gonzalez
Some of you dont seem to understand. Linespeople make good calls makes bad calls thats the breaks and sometimes throughout a match it evens out, BUT for a CHAIRUMPIRE to OVERULE a call that was NOT clearly a mistake is my gripe! She had NO business to overule the call when it was NOT clearly out! That call determined a set!

Tennis is not played on one ball!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Even if she would have had a 4-2 lead. Where was Serena in the second set?

Clijsters was the better player today. She deserved to win. Get over it. Never will an umpire decide a match in tennis.

And even if you want to argue about a point deciding a set it would have been more worse if Clijsters had breakpoint and then if the umpire had overruled.
But now it was back to deuce and Serena was serving but couldn't hold so...

Mr Luis Gonzalez
Nov 12th, 2002, 05:11 AM
Oh and DokicFan we wont talk about who "purely sucked" buddy I know a certain, yugoslav/aussie/british/???? lady in the tourney who lost 7-6, 6-0 to Serena ok!!!!!..yes 6-0 take that bagle and stuff it into your trap!

HAIL-VENUS
Nov 12th, 2002, 05:12 AM
Well, it seems to me that Serena ended up robbing her own self when she was up 5-3 with a chance to break then another chance to hold serve to win the set. I don't think you'll be hearing Serena complaining about that call. I think she knew that she had chances to close out and she didn't capitalize on them, even after that bad line call. I think that will mean more to Serena than the umpire's overrule.

Mr Luis Gonzalez
Nov 12th, 2002, 05:15 AM
Big Differnce to try to come back to win in 3 sets Fedcup and Kim has Jenn to thank for that but had serena won the first set as she should have (but due to the overule she didnt) it could have been a diffent match entirely!

Picol
Nov 12th, 2002, 05:17 AM
Mr Luis you cannot have it both ways. You say if the point was awarded it would of been 4-2 not 3-3 changing the whole match.

Then you conclude that Serena would of broken Kim next game as she did in the real match.

But the match, according to you, had changed completely so how do you know Serena would of broken as she did in the real match?

You do not.

It is all conjecture on your part.

As a Tennis fan that does admire Serena very much I find this a bit far fetched. Do not cheapen Kims win because as a fan of Serena you are cheapening other fans of Serena

Randy H
Nov 12th, 2002, 05:22 AM
what difference does it make if she went up 4-2? she went up 5-3 anyway, and still lost the set, so obviously that call wasn't playing in her mind too much.

bad calls happen, i am sure serena has had many go against her before where she disregarded them and went on to win, and i am sure there are some that have gone her way that perhaps helped her to win too. kim played better though, and i think you are really kidding serena's ability if you think that a 4-time slam champion of her calibre would be unable to regroup and win a match after she lost a first set, regardless of any disputed calls. serena is much tougher than that, and much more mature than that.

Mr Luis Gonzalez
Nov 12th, 2002, 05:22 AM
But see you dont understand the rest wouldn't have MATTERED!!!! Had the call STUCK and NOT overuled, the consequential games would have went in Serena's favor for the set 6-2!!!!!

She wouldnt have been in any situation after winning the set 6-2 to try to break or hold or whatecer!!! The set woudl have been hers wayyyy before that!

If you have a comment about what I mean PLEASE read my explanantion to what my gripe is and try to counter that and NOT OTHER scenarios! I notice NO ONE is countering my reasoning of the OVERULE to give Serean the game period!

I will NOT entertain and idiot who is going in circles and commenting about NOT giving Kim credit, cause I do and "bad calls are part of the game" crap becaue thats not my point!

Picol
Nov 12th, 2002, 05:30 AM
I will not bother with this thread anymore. Personal insults were not needed and do not enhance the debate

Mr Luis Gonzalez
Nov 12th, 2002, 05:32 AM
Picol....I'm giving you the EXACT scenarios of the games that followed and who won them after the last game of Serena AFTER the overule ocurred. Im not a fortune-teller and not trying to be one. The match is over I have it on tape when I explained how the games went they are FACTUAL and not what I hoped or wished had happened. the explanation above by me on how I come up with my reason is there

I repeat! The below is an actual account of how the games went after the overule! NOT my fortune-telling or wishful thinking of the following games:

It was 3-2 Serena serving Serena had game point, her winner was OVERULED to be UP 4-2! Not just a bad call where it would have been 30-15, 30-30, deuce, or something like that it was a game ROBBED by the OVERULE. Had the chair not overuled (and the shot was GOOD) serena would have been up 4-2

instead 3-3

Ok now.....Serena breaks! 4-3 SHOULD have been 5-2

NEXT Serena HOLDS that was the set 6-2....understand. None of the would of could ofs should haves would have mattered if the CALL was NOT overuled in the first place when it was actually GOOD!


If you cannot understand this and have the matched taped. Challenge this!! Other than that I repeat! Serena was robbed of the first set by an IDIOT CHAIR who overuled a GOOD ball from Serena that caused her that game because it was a game point and eventually the set!


Could have been a differnet match folks! Screw the Chair!

rated_next
Nov 12th, 2002, 05:32 AM
:rolleyes:

Congrats Kim :)

earthcrystal
Nov 12th, 2002, 05:34 AM
I agree with Picol - your argument is based on a false premise. One point can and often does change what happens in a match, ergo claiming the rest of the games would've gone off the same way that they did is absurd.

The causal nexus changes...the rest of the match changes.

Yeah, it was a bad call. They happen. They will continue to happen. And it's annoying to see them happen to your fave. (So are let cords dropping from a crappy loose net). Life goes on.

treufreund
Nov 12th, 2002, 05:37 AM
LUIS,

I don't like the Willies and love KIM and yet who can deny the validity of what you are saying??? I mean it was a TERRIBLE CALL.

Also Anne Laserre-Ulrich is the same one who made that horrible, disastrous call against Martina Hingis in the finals of the French Open against Steffi. After that she broke down and I TRULY BELIEVE that had she not interfered with a bad call that Martina would have closed that match out.

She is notorious that Anne! :mad:

treufreund
Nov 12th, 2002, 05:40 AM
I do have to point out that KIM HAD BAD LUCK on the point just before that overrule when Serena's shot hit the net and caused Kim to mishit. Not exactly the same but bad luck two points in a row. Of course a bad overrule is much worse but these things happen in tennis. But I don't think Serena would have been able to win even if she had taken the first set.

Mr Luis Gonzalez
Nov 12th, 2002, 05:42 AM
what "false premise" the games won/lost were the ACTUAL games that were won/lost in the match had the CHAIR NOT overuled. Follow the games won/lost scenario and you will see what I mean. I didnt make up/wish/hope/oversee/fortell the games that were won/lost. Im just asking you to take the 4-2 lead (what it would have been without the OVERULE) thats it and go from there.Because if that particular point WASN"T overuled it was GAME to Serena to go up 4-2 the REST fell into place as the games went on in the ACTUAL match!

Rubylips
Nov 12th, 2002, 05:46 AM
True that,Serena was wipe out.Most of the player"s were wipe out .Well god will it ,2003 will look good for all our girls.LET THE GAME"S BEGIN. PEACE EVERYONE TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF.I wish i had some of their money,for the holiday.

Mr Luis Gonzalez
Nov 12th, 2002, 05:49 AM
treufreund, a fan can learn to live with let cords, bad linescalls (they happen) but NOT a "PROFESSIONAL" chairumpire who OVERULES a call that was NOT A CLEAR mistake and causing her to eventually lose a set! That's my gripe. Your right maybe Serena still would not have won the match or maybe Serena would have played harder if she knew she only had one set left to go.......but the call was ABSURD and worse yet WRONG and as a fan IM pissed and have a right to gripe about it!

Mr Luis Gonzalez
Nov 12th, 2002, 05:53 AM
And your right... Hingis had the match in her hands until the chair got in the way causing the other mess to happen..............and I'm sure Hingis fans are still stinging about it. Thanks for understanding what I mean though.

franny
Nov 12th, 2002, 06:08 AM
its juss too bad, serena could have still won but she didn't. Bad calls are all over the games and its something players have learned to deal with, btw, i dont recall seeing this on espn, i knew there was one overrule that espn showed was in that hit the sideline, was that the call you guys are talking about? cuz i dont really remember what point it was at.

Experimentee
Nov 12th, 2002, 06:15 AM
Anna Lasserre is hopeless. She was the one the umpired during the 99 French Open fiasco and many other matches i remember being annoyed with her! I'm surprised she was even allowed to umpire another big tournament final after that!
Some people in this thread dont seem to realise that no one is trying to take credit away from Kim, she won it fair and square, but the umpire is totally unprofessional and should be sacked!

Zummi
Nov 12th, 2002, 06:18 AM
Well, the good news is that this was probably that umpire's last match...

I also agree that Serena could have won the match had she won that first set.

earthcrystal
Nov 12th, 2002, 06:27 AM
Originally posted by Mr Luis Gonzalez
what "false premise" the games won/lost were the ACTUAL games that were won/lost in the match had the CHAIR NOT overuled. Follow the games won/lost scenario and you will see what I mean. I didnt make up/wish/hope/oversee/fortell the games that were won/lost. Im just asking you to take the 4-2 lead (what it would have been without the OVERULE) thats it and go from there.Because if that particular point WASN"T overuled it was GAME to Serena to go up 4-2 the REST fell into place as the games went on in the ACTUAL match!

I'm going to try to be patient, because I understand that how this bugs. The false premise is that you're saying the EXACT scenario would've taken place if the call hadn't been overruled.
That is impossible. One point (or game) changes things--yes, and subsequently changes what follows.

For example:

Being further down may have made Kim play even better. Maybe she would've won the next four straight games and bagelled Serena in the 2nd. Serena's adrenelin level might have made her hit balls long. Or it could have made her win the set. Bottom line is things would've changed.

You simply cannot argue that had the overrule not occured EVERYTHING else in the universe would've still played out the same. That's what is meant by "causal nexus" - one thing in your life changes, everything that follows changes.

A person bumps you - you spill coffee- it puts you in a bad mood - you yell at your boss -you get fired. Would you've have gotten fired if the coffee hadn't been spilled? To follow your reasoning the answer would be yes. You would've still yelled at your boss and still gotten fired (because in your reasoning the scenario plays out EXACTLY the same). But if you hadn't been bumped, you may not have yelled and might still have a job.

The causal nexus is the bump in that analogy. Everything that comes after it is changed.

That's the best I can do. Hope you can understand the point a little better. In any case, that's my last bit of explaining.

disposablehero
Nov 12th, 2002, 07:25 AM
The ball was over 90% out, and the ump made her best guess. How can she see a couple of strands of fuzz land on the line?

She also overruled one of Serena's at 5-3 that was originally called out but only about 20% in. That was very nearly as tough a call, but she didn't shy from it.

So if she was going to be meek, Serena would have won the first point and lost the second. She did her best, I am sure.

treufreund
Nov 12th, 2002, 08:01 AM
There was a defensive get from Serena that was actually good but Kim went ahead and played it for a winner and there is no way Serena would have gotten to it but Kim played it just in case. That was in the second set, towards the end of the match.

But EC is right. I was thinking the exact same thing but did not know all those fancy words. :o

Still Luis was right and I think that "bump" in 99 cost Martina the French Open title that she may now never win. Hopefully she can come back. After seeing the way Kim played today though I would have to consider her a HUGE FAVORITE to win ROLAND GARROS. The added TOPSPIN and PATIENCE IN RALLIES might really pay off. Hell, she already almost won it two years ago and her game is better now. :)

LeonHart
Nov 12th, 2002, 08:21 AM
I saw it on espn. It was the one Serena hit to the back alley line, the ball clearly on the line, but the chair umpired overruled and called it out. Pam Shriver had her "Shot-spot" to see if the overrule was correct. She didn't really make a real fuss about it though, cuz i think Kim was jipped in that set too by a bad call.

Playa
Nov 12th, 2002, 04:44 PM
No, Pam shriver said "that's a verry horrific call"

tennischick
Nov 12th, 2002, 04:54 PM
all umpires should be banned. let the players make their own calls...:p :p

tennischick
Nov 12th, 2002, 11:32 PM
*BUMP* for TP...