PDA

View Full Version : Clijsters: Defeats BOTH Williams in 1 Tournament


calabar
Nov 12th, 2002, 03:16 AM
Congrats to Kim,

She accomplished the rare feat of taking out BOTH Sisters in the same event. Much kudos.

Calabar

Mr Luis Gonzalez
Nov 12th, 2002, 03:22 AM
Get real ---She was given the match by Venus. Helen Keller can see Venus couldnt play anybody that day! I mean really!!

Lisbeth
Nov 12th, 2002, 03:22 AM
Technically yes, but I doubt kind-hearted Kim would take any joy from Venus having to retire injured.

Great win against Serena though :)

Jericho
Nov 12th, 2002, 03:24 AM
Technically yes...but in reality no...
Good job to kim though...she deserves it and in the end she received more "luck" than the sisters did...

persond
Nov 12th, 2002, 03:26 AM
Originally posted by Number1Kim
Technically yes, but I doubt kind-hearted Kim would take any joy from Venus having to retire injured.

Great win against Serena though :)

:) A win is a win, but anyone could see, Kim should thank Jenn for her win tonight. Serena was just too, too, tired. Pure and simple. And as far as showing anyone can beat the Williamses, they'll really need to do much more next year to beat them. Serena won't be tired the next time she meets Kim.:D :D

2284
Nov 12th, 2002, 03:27 AM
Originally posted by Number1Kim
Technically yes, but I doubt kind-hearted Kim would take any joy from Venus having to retire injured.

Great win against Serena though :)
She didn't take joy from Venus retiring. The photos show that Kim was quite disappointed. She was really looking forward to playing Venus

"Topaz"
Nov 12th, 2002, 03:31 AM
Clijsters: Defeats BOTH Williams in 1 Tournament

Yes she did. The Willis can take it in stride for they know where they stand. Kim is a nice girl; all the best for her.

Rae Q.
Nov 12th, 2002, 03:31 AM
It will go in the h2h that she beat both but I suppose in Kim's mind she only beat Serena.

Mr Luis Gonzalez
Nov 12th, 2002, 03:40 AM
Venus was classy enough to attempt to play the match when she could have easily withdrawn taking away any points Kim got for defeating #2 and the W on Kim's column.. God forbid Venus would have pulled out due to injury! (with good reason) Imagine all the crap she would have gotten from the ignorant people that follow tennis.

Rubylips
Nov 12th, 2002, 04:34 AM
True that Luis.

gopher
Nov 12th, 2002, 04:36 AM
Well she HAS beaten them back to back and she will do it again.

persond
Nov 12th, 2002, 04:44 AM
Originally posted by gopher
Well she HAS beaten them back to back and she will do it again.

:D gopher,

Kim won fair and square, but, I certainly wouldn't put too much stock into this win over a "very tired" Serena!! We'll just have to wait and see what happens next season. Also, this is the end of the year tourney and probably all the players are tired, to some extent. Kim was decidedly more rested than Serena, and after having Venus retire, she had a full day to rest. Again, not to take anything from Kim's win, but, we'll need to see them compete when they are both at their best. OKAY ????:D :D

Giuseppe
Nov 12th, 2002, 05:03 AM
Yeah, and i am very happy about Kim, she is the first lady who accomplishes this feat since Martina Hingis defeated the williamses back to back at the OZ 2001. congratulations Kim!!!!! you are the real queen of the masters! :D :bounce:

Experimentee
Nov 12th, 2002, 05:08 AM
Kim didnt defeat Venus, she really should have got a walkover on that match. I dont think Kim considered it a proper win, but she did a good job to go on and take the title

PhoenixStorm
Nov 12th, 2002, 06:37 AM
actually to even start a thread like this means that you acknowledge that venus and serena are the best of the best on the tour and two score back to back wins means that kim is in some rarefied plane of tennis. so its a nice compliment to the sisters that people find their games so overwhelming and striking.

THE NET
Nov 12th, 2002, 06:39 AM
Originally posted by oliver
Technically yes...but in reality no...
Good job to kim though...she deserves it and in the end she received more "luck" than the sisters did...

Couldn't agree more

;)

wongqks
Nov 12th, 2002, 06:46 AM
I think Kim rather beat them both for real and I am sure she has many chances to do that in the future

Mercury Rising
Nov 12th, 2002, 06:47 AM
Originally posted by persond


Kim was decidedly more rested than Serena, and after having Venus retire, she had a full day to rest. Again, not to take anything from Kim's win, but, we'll need to see them compete when they are both at their best. OKAY ????:D :D
LOL why saying that? Cause YOU ARE taking a lot from Kim's win. Now it's cause Serena is tired, but before this match everybody thought that even a tired Serena will defeat Kim. No, it was even good that Serena had more matchplay, it would be an advantage, but now it's the reason she lost...

Williams Rulez
Nov 12th, 2002, 06:51 AM
I wouldn't read too much into Kim's win over Venus... :(

Great win over Serena though! :)

caseyl45
Nov 12th, 2002, 07:00 AM
Come on, guys, give Clijsters a break! Yes, Venus was injured, and yes, Serena was tired, but she still had to go out there and either put herself in a winning position or win the match. Apparently that's a lot harder than most of us are willing to believe (witness Zurich semis). Not even the people on ESPN were willing to admit that, which I think is sad. It seems to me that Clijsters is one of the sweetest players out there, and to win a tournament at this level the way she did was outstanding -- especially as a nineteen year old. Congrats to her on a great end to a complicated year.

Jakeev
Nov 12th, 2002, 07:35 AM
Glad to see the "talented" Mr. Luiz Gonzalez back in action.......hell he will make Freethinker look like Cinderella if he sticks around long enough.......

Crazy Canuck
Nov 12th, 2002, 08:36 AM
Blah Blah Blah Serena was tired, Kim was fresh as ever blah blah

Becuase you know, kim hasn't been playing at all the last month. And you know, Serena has never played a three set match then won the next day. Nope, not ever (ignores that Roland Garros ever happened).


:rolleyes:


Morons.

Katrien
Nov 12th, 2002, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by persond


:) A win is a win, but anyone could see, Kim should thank Jenn for her win tonight. Serena was just too, too, tired. Pure and simple. And as far as showing anyone can beat the Williamses, they'll really need to do much more next year to beat them. Serena won't be tired the next time she meets Kim.:D :D

Why is it that, every time another player than the Williams sisters, scores a great win, they have to thank another player. There's only one player to thank this time and that's Kim. She has been playing very well the last few weeks. This time around, she's the champion.

SM
Nov 12th, 2002, 08:47 AM
well done kim! hope the rest of the top ten follows suit and realizes they can win too :)

niratti
Nov 12th, 2002, 09:05 AM
Kim is the 4th to do that!! the previous one is Martina in AO 2001!

but who is the other 2 and when? anybody remember?

Doris Loeffel
Nov 12th, 2002, 09:18 AM
One was Steffi in 99 I believe but don't ask for the tournament.
And hmmm was ASV the other??

tennischick
Nov 12th, 2002, 09:47 AM
at the end of the day, most players get lucky breaks at some point or another. Kim got lucky that the match against Monica took so much out of Venus. and she again got lucky that the match against Jen took that much out of Serena. then again, Jen got lucky earlier this year (in Australia) that Hingis had to beat both sisters back to back and had nothing left by the finals. and so on, and so on. there are many examples of players benefiting from what happened in the previous round. in the end it all evens out, and on the record, Kim Clijsters beat both Sisters back to back. that goes on record regardless of how the win was accomplished. i really don't think Venus is losing any sleep over this. more than likely she is planning her revenge for next year!

regarding the match itself, Serena was tired and often out-of-control last night. that had very little to do with Kim IMHO. unlike the match against Jen where many of Serena''s errors were clearly FORCED by Jen's excellent play, last night the errors were largely unforced. Serena committed 44 UNFORCED errors altogether -- that's almost 8 games that she gave away. if you minus Kim's 27 errors, you still end up with 4+ games that Serena threw away. given Kim's consistency last night, that was something Serena couldn't afford (and ironically, she lost exactly 4 games!)

it was a great match tho'. i enjoyed it. i would have preferred to see Serena holding the trophy but if she had to give it away, she couldn't have chosen a nicer person...;) ;) ;)

irma
Nov 12th, 2002, 09:50 AM
being tired is no exuse
http://www.wtatour.com/assets/story_image/ClijstersTrophy111102.jpg :D

GoDominique
Nov 12th, 2002, 09:50 AM
Why is this necessary ? Kim beat Serena, that's already anough for a great accomplishment.

No, she didn't 'beat' Venus. But I know what I saw. Kim was prepared to beat Venus. She attacked her serves and nailed the returns into the corners. It would have been a tough match with a healthy Venus, but I think Kim would have had a very good chance to win.

gentenaire
Nov 12th, 2002, 09:51 AM
I agree with the first part, tennischick but not with what you say about the UE. Kim brought balls back that others wouldn't have been able to reach, Kim brought them back deep. This means that Serena had to take more risks if she wanted to hit winners, she couldn't play it safe because then Kim would have gotten to the ball. The more risks you take, the more UE you make. So in that sense those errors were forced.

raquel
Nov 12th, 2002, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by Doris Loeffel
One was Steffi in 99 I believe but don't ask for the tournament.
And hmmm was ASV the other??
yes, Arantxa beat them both in Sydney 1998.

irma
Nov 12th, 2002, 09:54 AM
steffi also did it in sydney!

tennischick
Nov 12th, 2002, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by Tine
I agree with the first part, tennischick but not with what you say about the UE. Kim brought balls back that others wouldn't have been able to reach, Kim brought them back deep. This means that Serena had to take more risks if she wanted to hit winners, she couldn't play it safe because then Kim would have gotten to the ball. The more risks you take, the more UE you make. So in that sense those errors were forced.

i understand your point Tine but technically these were still unforced errors. a player returning a ball is not enuf to cause the other to miss a shot. it's the force and quality of the return that determine that. against Capriati, Serena often faced that balls that literally POUNDED back at her -- hence the high number of forced errors. her serves often came back with such force that she was often literally unable to set up the one-two punch and her balls often went flying.

last night Kim was a backboard, i agree. but she didn't have Jen's power. that was OK bec she clearly didn't need it to beat Serena. her consistency was enuf. Serena played a riskier game not merely bec of Kim's consistency (and i do concede that this was a factor) but also bec she was tired and could not get into long rallies -- not that that is ever her style. to me it seemed as if Serena was often simply not THINKING. there was little evidence of strategy. she seemed to think that hitting ball the ball as hard as possible was enuf. and clearly Kim had come prepared to act as a human backboard and wait for Serena to make the error. and she did. 44 times. and that IMO is what lost her the match. that and the fact that towards the end she was clearly pooped and didn't have a whole lotta fight left. altho' i did admire the way she dug deep and forced Kim to have to serve for the match.

not taking anything away from Kim's win. her strategy was well thought out and effective. it was an enjoyable match. and ccapriati must be soooooooooooo pissed...;) ;)

Raisin
Nov 12th, 2002, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by PhoenixStorm
actually to even start a thread like this means that you acknowledge that venus and serena are the best of the best on the tour and two score back to back wins means that kim is in some rarefied plane of tennis. so its a nice compliment to the sisters that people find their games so overwhelming and striking.

True dat lol

Janet
Nov 12th, 2002, 12:29 PM
People kim did not beat both williams in 1 tourament kim had a walk over, until I see kim do that then I can comment! so we will wait until 2003!! if she can accomplish that.............I could tell serena was just going to give the set away but yes kim fight hard and win for her built her confidents up more for 2003, but serena clearly was the tired one!! BUT SERENA HAD AWONDERFUL YEAR 2002!!!!!!! I'm happy for that accomplishment........

fleemke³
Nov 12th, 2002, 02:01 PM
Kim did play a good match and had luck in the other matches but that is tennis you know!

But don't say she beat both Williams because it's not true in strict way!

Good job Kim we are proud
Grtzz a justine fan ;):)

vw43
Nov 12th, 2002, 02:12 PM
Being injured is an excuse to not play well. Being tired is not. Congratulations Kim :)

Come-on-kim
Nov 12th, 2002, 03:55 PM
CONGRATS KIM

Katrien
Nov 12th, 2002, 04:35 PM
Maybe, Serena WAS tired after her three-setter against Jenny (but hey, she is number one in the world; she can handle it). Every player feels tired at the end of the season. So let's not suscribe Kimmie's win to Serena being tired. We don't want to underestimate Kim's talent.
Venus was injured and had to give up . . . OK! You guys can call that "an easy win". Let's not forget though that - last year - Serena walked away, with the title and the money, without hitting one single ball (in the final). This year she had to fight for the title and she didn't pull through...
Serena is a great champion and she always will be, but this time it was Kim's turn. She deserved to win . . .:kiss:

gentenaire
Nov 12th, 2002, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by tennischick


i understand your point Tine but technically these were still unforced errors. a player returning a ball is not enuf to cause the other to miss a shot. it's the force and quality of the return that determine that. against Capriati, Serena often faced that balls that literally POUNDED back at her -- hence the high number of forced errors. her serves often came back with such force that she was often literally unable to set up the one-two punch and her balls often went flying.

last night Kim was a backboard, i agree. but she didn't have Jen's power. that was OK bec she clearly didn't need it to beat Serena. her consistency was enuf. Serena played a riskier game not merely bec of Kim's consistency (and i do concede that this was a factor) but also bec she was tired and could not get into long rallies -- not that that is ever her style. to me it seemed as if Serena was often simply not THINKING. there was little evidence of strategy. she seemed to think that hitting ball the ball as hard as possible was enuf. and clearly Kim had come prepared to act as a human backboard and wait for Serena to make the error. and she did. 44 times. and that IMO is what lost her the match. that and the fact that towards the end she was clearly pooped and didn't have a whole lotta fight left. altho' i did admire the way she dug deep and forced Kim to have to serve for the match.

not taking anything away from Kim's win. her strategy was well thought out and effective. it was an enjoyable match. and ccapriati must be soooooooooooo pissed...;) ;)

I understand what you mean. I just don't like it when people say Serena handed Kim the win by making so many errors. The way Kim played had a strong influence on the number of errors Serena made. The term EU seems to indicate that no matter who was on the other side of the net, that error would have been made. I don't believe those were such errors. Kim said in an interview that it really was her strategy, to wear Serena down so that she'd make errors. Kim knew Serena must have been tired and used it to her advantage. When Justine played an injured Lindsay, she didn't make her run and ended up losing, Justine didn't play Lindsay's weakness. Kim knew where Serena's weakness was that day and used it to her advantage. That's an accomplishment in itself. What I'm trying to say is that I think Kim truly won, that Kim wasn't handed this win on a plate like some people here seem to suggest. Kim was the better player yesterday, end of story.

The Williams sisters usually play very short matches in the first rounds of the slams, this means that they're better rested than the other players in the later rounds and it works to their advantage. This time the roles were reversed, Kim was better rested. Taking away the credit from Kim 'because Serena was tired' is like taking away the grand slam titles from the Williams sisters cause the players they beat were tired.

locks
Nov 12th, 2002, 05:47 PM
As much as I would have liked V or S williams to win but they didn't and Kim did. End of story:)

tennischick
Nov 12th, 2002, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by Tine
I understand what you mean. I just don't like it when people say Serena handed Kim the win by making so many errors. The way Kim played had a strong influence on the number of errors Serena made. The term EU seems to indicate that no matter who was on the other side of the net, that error would have been made. I don't believe those were such errors. Kim said in an interview that it really was her strategy, to wear Serena down so that she'd make errors. Kim knew Serena must have been tired and used it to her advantage. When Justine played an injured Lindsay, she didn't make her run and ended up losing, Justine didn't play Lindsay's weakness. Kim knew where Serena's weakness was that day and used it to her advantage. That's an accomplishment in itself. What I'm trying to say is that I think Kim truly won, that Kim wasn't handed this win on a plate like some people here seem to suggest. Kim was the better player yesterday, end of story.

The Williams sisters usually play very short matches in the first rounds of the slams, this means that they're better rested than the other players in the later rounds and it works to their advantage. This time the roles were reversed, Kim was better rested. Taking away the credit from Kim 'because Serena was tired' is like taking away the grand slam titles from the Williams sisters cause the players they beat were tired.

and i too understand where you are coming from. i didn't in any way mean to take ANYTHING away from what Kim accomplished last night. she played with beautiful consistency and she deserved to win.

however, i think that folks are simply acknowledging that Serena was not a 100% last night. i truly did not expect this having seen her get tested in the past by Jen only to go on and win the next match anyway. but i guess that all of these TV appearances etc meant time away from practicing/the gym, and that cost her in terms of her fitness level. and, as you say, Kim was clearly aware of Serena's fatigue and so came in with the strategy of keeping her opponent on her feet. and she did this by returning every ball if possible. so she did execute her strategy beautifully!

after i re-read my last post it occurred to me that i should have said that Serena seemed too tired to even think! it was her mental fatigue, not just her physical, that also contributed to this result. a sharper, fitter, less body-fatter Serena would have given Kim a better challenge. alas that Serena did not exist and the results are as they are and i am truly happy for Kim.

this does not at all however detract from the fact that Serena remains the Player of the Year. surely you agree with this?

now if only Agassi would win in Shanghai and make my year perfect...;) ;)

gentenaire
Nov 12th, 2002, 07:24 PM
Serena is without a doubt the player of the year. I've always hated how people suddenly change their opinion of players based on one match. One win doesn't make Kim a better player than Serena. Kim was better yesterday, on other days Serena was better.

tennischick
Nov 12th, 2002, 07:30 PM
i hear ya!!!!! and totally agree...;)

Informative
Nov 12th, 2002, 08:30 PM
First, congratulations to Kim for winning the tournament, but in no way did she "defeat both Williams sisters." Venus's injury made it impossible for her to be competitive on any level so she was forced to default the match. Even Kim knows that she only legitimately defeated Venus once in 2002. The ridiculous notion that ANYONE in the WTA is at the same level as either Serena or Venus on the basis of the year-end championships is too absurd to even consider. Barring injury in 2003 BOTH sisters WILL continue to dominate women's tennis, and anyone who says otherwise is not paying attention to what actually happened this year. Venus and Serena together won 15 tournaments and were a phenomenal 114-10 or .919 against everyone in the WTA not named 'Williams' LOL. Expect more of the same next year! Case closed!

moon
Nov 12th, 2002, 10:13 PM
congrats to Kim on beating Serena, tired or not she won.
as for her "beating" Venus. *rolls eyes* I guess some people are desperate for their player to get a "W" against a Williams.

Lola
Nov 12th, 2002, 10:20 PM
CONGRATS KIM!!! :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

there was a thread about who's going to win the final and a poll: and I voted KIM IN 2! :D