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View Full Version : Astute Tennis Fans Now Realize - The Sisters Can Be Beat


GogoGirl
Nov 11th, 2002, 01:07 AM
I think the way Jen played Serena was a good indication that she can beat Serena - and that Serena can be seriously challenged. Jen won the match in my eyes and I'll tell you why. She won because she almost won. She won because she believes she can win. I have more respect for Jen after this match than the match before - for she was not laying down for no Williams. And that is as it should be. A couple of points here and there - and she would have won it.

The way Jen performed proves that there are challengers to the Sisters. Monica almost took Venus to a third set - and she definitely took it to Venus. Kim was going to give my girl a run for her runner up or winner's check - and Kim will give Serena a great go at the title on 11/11/02. I can just feel it. Kim has never beaten Serena - and that may change tomorrow.

I think the point has been made that if a player is determined and confident enough - said player can beat a Williams. Who didn't know that? The main battle is the mindset that shouts - "I can beat her." One has to believe in order to achieve - and it is as simple as that.

Next year should be really exciting. Does anyone know who has committed to which tourney to start 2003 as of yet?

england_rules
Nov 11th, 2002, 01:10 AM
Yeah she's still human! It's just that, other than today, no one ever seems to give 100% against her!!!

GogoGirl
Nov 11th, 2002, 01:10 AM
"LET'S GO PRIMETIME LADIES" "GIVE US A GOOD SHOW"


http://sportsnetwork.com/default.asp?c=sportsnetwork&page=tennis-w/news/BBN2307247.htm


Serena to face Clijsters for season-ending title
Los Angeles, CA (Sports Network) - Serena Williams, the world's No. 1 ranked player, rallied from a set down to beat third seed Jennifer Capriati, 2-6, 6-4, 6-4 to advance to the final of the WTA Tour's season-ending Home Depot Championships at Staples Center.

Williams will next face fifth seed Belgian Kim Clijsters, who advanced after second seed Venus Williams retired in the first set of their semifinal match due to a strain in her lower left leg. Venus said she twisted her ankle during a quarterfinal match against Monica Seles on Friday.

Clijsters was ahead 5-0 in the first set when Venus strained the peroneal muscle in her left leg just 13 minutes into the match.

It was the second time Venus pulled out of a match in California at the last minute. She didn't play in the semifinals against Serena, her younger sister, in the Tennis Masters Series at Indian Wells in 2001.

This was the fourth time in the last five years that Venus pulled out of the season-ending championships. Last year she hurt her left wrist and in 2000 she had anemia and in 1998 a knee injury prevented her from participating.

Serena lost the first set of her semifinal in just 32 minutes, but rallied over the final two sets, which lasted 99 minutes. Serena drilled 14 aces to just two for Capriati, but had 53 unforced errors to just 23 for Capriati. Serena also had 42 winners, while Capriati had only 11.

It was the seventh win for Serena over Capriati in 11 lifetime meetings and Williams has won the last six encounters.

Serena, the French Open, Wimbledon, and U.S. Open Champion, captured this event last year in Munich, when she won via a walkover against an injured Lindsay Davenport.

Clijsters is looking for her fourth title this year, while Serena is trying for her ninth championship of 2002. Serena has won all five lifetime meetings against Clijsters, including a three-set win at the Princess Cup in Japan in September.

The winner of this year's $3 million event will claim $765,000.





11/10 19:34:02 ET

leslie
Nov 11th, 2002, 01:10 AM
But Serena still won. Yes they can be beaten but they always come out on top. They are true champions.

brickhousesupporter
Nov 11th, 2002, 01:12 AM
I understand where you are going with your post, but it could also be the straw that breaks Capriati's back. Capriati played the best against Serena that she has ever played, but still could not come up with the win. How many more of these close matches can she take before she begins to doubt herself.

PhoenixStorm
Nov 11th, 2002, 01:15 AM
omigod people didnt you already know she could be beat? Chanda and Patty and Justine already did it this year which means she can beat even while dominating.

Jen has played her close, momo has played venus close as well as kim who has beaten venus.

it should come as no great surprise.

harloo
Nov 11th, 2002, 01:18 AM
Sorry Gogogirl, but I feel like Jen always felt she could beat Serena. Most of the time it goes to 3 sets between them. Jen has beaten Rena before, but I think what the difference is right now is Serena's will not to lose. She has approached this whole year with that attitude, and has gotten mentally stronger.

For you to say that now Jen feels she can beat Serena is a little over the top dont ya think? The belief has always been there, it's just hasn't happened in 6 times. She was very close in most of those matches.

Futhermore, I feel the tour will get tougher and it remains to be seen if Serena can keep up form. Today she didn't play so well and squeeked by Jen and that was due to her mental game.

Good luck to Rena in the finals! I hope she wins, but I wouldn't be upset if Kim won either!

Congrats Rena, and Kimmy!:D :)

calabar
Nov 11th, 2002, 01:21 AM
Just how astute are these tennis fans who just figured out what the rest of the world already knew?

GogoGirl
Nov 11th, 2002, 01:32 AM
And I still say that one player can not win all the time - and I don't care who it is. Serena will lose again - and we all know that. What my point is that believing that you can win is half the battle. Should all the players go into it thinking they have no chance against the Sisters - like some players have done this year?

Williams fans must not get toooooo complacent into thinking our girls will always win - because they won't. I meant not to take anything away from Serena's desire to win - because I love her wining spirit and heart - but Jen almost won. For God's sakes a win by two points or so is still a win - but it also gives the opponent on the other side of the net that fighting spirit to say -"hey wait a minute - I almost won and WILL win next time."

Do we or do we not want competition in this league? Surely - we will pull and root for our faves - but we also need to give ourselves a little cushion by admitting that our faves won't win each and every time to make up for their losses that end up depressing us. If Serena loses to Kim 6-3 - 6-3 will the fans be able to handle it? I know I would - because I know Kim is a big time player. She has the goods to take it to Serena. If Serena is not on her game and Kim is - then what?

We need to pray that these other ladies will provide a challenge to our girls - so that we continue to appreciate our faves feats when pulling out a tough match like today. We also need to give credit to players that beat them or almost beat them. We can't walk around w/our noses up in the air all the time - now can we? If we do - then it will hurt more when our fave fails or loses.

All I'm saying is that I hope this tourney proves to the tennis world at large that there is fair competition on the WTA tour. And that TPsTB need not rewrite the record and rules books because of the Sisters.

PhoenixStorm
Nov 11th, 2002, 01:37 AM
Jen herself said that she doesnt feel like the underdog when playing serena. she feels she is serena's equal or better and will beat her. jen does not lack in desire or confidence or ego. She feels she should have won every single match against serena and has stated so previously.

Like someone else said serena gets visibly nervous when playing jen its like she hits these crazy unforced errors on easy shots. I think those four consecutive losses drove serena to the point she declared its do or die and she did.

tennisIlove09
Nov 11th, 2002, 01:42 AM
If Jen "won" this match, did she also win in Canada [63 in the 3rd]; Scottsdale [64 in 3rd]; Miami [75 76]; Rome [75 in the 3rd]; Paris [36 76 62]??

All of their matches are close; Serena's just better at closing it out now

Bright Red
Nov 11th, 2002, 01:43 AM
You bring up a great point, GG. This match should demonstrate that the Williams Sisters aren't the only ones on the tour with the goods. I think less people would be complaining about the domination of the Williams, if the rest of the players took it to the Williams as consistently as Jenn does.

GogoGirl
Nov 11th, 2002, 01:44 AM
That's right PS. So are you saying Jen will never beat Serena again?

PhoenixStorm
Nov 11th, 2002, 01:44 AM
notice I said she feels she SHOULD have won not that she actually did. Like how you may feel you SHOULD have gotten an a on a test but actually got a b.

GogoGirl
Nov 11th, 2002, 01:48 AM
Thanks BR. I think you've got my point.

Jelena almost won the first set against Serena. This ain't horse shoes no doubt - but it is still tennis. A point here or there. A net cord here or there. An error here or there. An ACE here or there. You get my drift righto.

Brought It!
Nov 11th, 2002, 01:53 AM
Match Summary Williams Capriati
1st Serve % 54% 58%
Aces 14 2
Double Faults 8 7
Winning % - 1st Serve Pts. 42 of 64 = 66% 35 of 60 = 58%
Winning % - 2nd Serve Pts. 22 of 54 = 41% 20 of 44 = 45%
Winners (Including Service) 42 11
Unforced Errors 53 23
Break Point Conversions 5 of 13 = 38 % 5 of 17 = 29 %
Net Approaches 14 of 17 = 82 % 3 of 9 = 33 %
Total Points Won 113 109
Fastest Match Serve Speed 117 MPH 111 MPH
Average Match Serve Speed 100 MPH 93 MPH

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Cappy stayed in the game because of Serena's Unforced Errors. Otherwise because of Serena's WINNER's this would have been a blow-out!

Serena plays Cappy NERVOUSLY. But a win is a win - NO MATTER WHAT!

Of course the Williams can't win all the time. That wouldn't be healthy thinking, expecially with some these players with the ability to catch fire.

However Serena and Venus have a .850 to 940 winning percentage. I'll take that.

harloo
Nov 11th, 2002, 01:58 AM
Originally posted by GogoGirl
And I still say that one player can not win all the time - and I don't care who it is. Serena will lose again - and we all know that. What my point is that believing that you can win is half the battle. Should all the players go into it thinking they have no chance against the Sisters - like some players have done this year?

Williams fans must not get toooooo complacent into thinking our girls will always win - because they won't. I meant not to take anything away from Serena's desire to win - because I love her wining spirit and heart - but Jen almost won. For God's sakes a win by two points or so is still a win - but it also gives the opponent on the other side of the net that fighting spirit to say -"hey wait a minute - I almost won and WILL win next time."

Do we or do we not want competition in this league? Surely - we will pull and root for our faves - but we also need to give ourselves a little cushion by admitting that our faves won't win each and every time to make up for their losses that end up depressing us. If Serena loses to Kim 6-3 - 6-3 will the fans be able to handle it? I know I would - because I know Kim is a big time player. She has the goods to take it to Serena. If Serena is not on her game and Kim is - then what?

We need to pray that these other ladies will provide a challenge to our girls - so that we continue to appreciate our faves feats when pulling out a tough match like today. We also need to give credit to players that beat them or almost beat them. We can't walk around w/our noses up in the air all the time - now can we? If we do - then it will hurt more when our fave fails or loses.

All I'm saying is that I hope this tourney proves to the tennis world at large that there is fair competition on the WTA tour. And that TPsTB need not rewrite the record and rules books because of the Sisters.

Sorry, but my nose is not up in the air gogogirl. I do believe that any one can be beaten on any given day including Serena and Venus. I just find the whole Jen now believes she can beat Serena thing to be a misstep on your part. Like I said before Jen has beaten Serena, and can do it again. She has always believed she could beat Serena and has in the past. The difference is that now Rena is matching her mentally.

And if Kim beats Serena tommorow then those are the breaks. I always give other players props after a win over my fave. It's not that serious and only a tennis match IMO. We all want our favorites to win, but it's not as if anyone on this board will gain anything if they do.

Brought It!
Nov 11th, 2002, 02:07 AM
Seems to me like this match got got GoGirls pantys in a twist. It's O.K. that's what "Good Matches" do.

Thought your girl was gonna lose, huh. At one point I thought so too.....

Yet, Serena made a VOW to NEVER lose to Cappy. The same VOW she made about other players who said negative things about her.

GogoGirl
Nov 11th, 2002, 02:11 AM
Harloo - where is the misstep on my part again? All summer and fall long, some have been concerned with the Sisters winning streak. They have declared that the Sisters are bad for tennis and some 'mo stuff. They are considering boycotting tourneys and what not because of the Sisters winning ways. My point is to state that the Sisters can be beaten. One lost by default in the semis and one almost lost. It is that simple.

Of course we all know that Jen has beaten Serena - but she hasn't beaten her lately. Pam - Cliff & Mary Jo were hoping Jen gave a good showing - and she did indeed - so they got their wish. The Jen fans should be proud and take heart from her effort because she was there. In the end, Serena gets another win in her column and I am thrilled - but I'm sure serena will admit that at one point - she was worried because Jen was taking it to her.

For the good of the WTA - I think it was a great matchup for the suspense of it. It gave TPsTB something to cheer about knowing that Jen almost beat one of the mighty Sisters. I think this should bode well for the first tourneys of the year. It will be good for the tennis world to understand and know that the Sisters are only human and can be beaten. That's all. With all the comments about how bad the Sisters are for tennis - like BR stated - this tourney will demonstrate that they do have challengers.


So let's bring 'em on in 2003.

Volcana
Nov 11th, 2002, 02:26 AM
GogoGirl - ASTUTE tennis fans ALWAYS realized all along neither Venus nor Serena was unbeatable. Chanda, Monica, Kim and Patty can remind if we forget. And Jenn has right noted that all her matches with Serena this year were close. However, the outcome has been the same five straight times in Jenn's case. I have to say this match told me nothing I didn't already know.

Jenn's a hell of fighter.
Serena's a better tennis player.

The players all say the same thing. "Right now they're better." I haven't heard one say "Right now they're unbeatable."

Jenn may have won this match in your eyes.
I think Jenn's eyes saw it differently.
Importantly though, Jenn didn't the matchaway through poor play. She played well, and got beat.

P.S. I'd expect most of the top ten at Sydney, but not Venus and not Jelena. Maybe not Monica, I don't think she played it last year.

Brought It!
Nov 11th, 2002, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by GogoGirl
For the good of the WTA - I think it was a great matchup for the suspense of it. It gave TPsTB something to cheer about knowing that Jen almost beat one of the mighty Sisters. I think this should bode well for the first tourneys of the year. It will be good for the tennis world to understand and know that the Sisters are only human and can be beaten. That's all. With all the comments about how bad the Sisters are for tennis - like BR stated - this tourney will demonstrate that they do have challengers.


So let's bring 'em on in 2003.

Jennifer STAYED in Serena's DRAW all year....it's not Serena's fault that Jennifer FINALLY made it past the other players to play her.

I believe the WTA rigged the draws to 'showcase' a Jennifer/Serena match.

Serena does her part to get to the finals.

CC
Nov 11th, 2002, 02:33 AM
"Clijsters was ahead 5-0 in the first set when Venus strained the peroneal muscle in her left leg just 13 minutes into the match.

It was the second time Venus pulled out of a match in California at the last minute."

I'm confused.

Volcana
Nov 11th, 2002, 02:39 AM
YOu and me both. In her interview, Venus said she rolled it vs Monica, but didn't notice til later that night. She said she came out to play Kim to give it a go, and noted she'd never even made the finals of this tournament.

GogoGirl
Nov 11th, 2002, 02:41 AM
Volcana - there are other victories to note - other than the ones that go into a WIN/LOSE COLUMN. In my eyes Jen won because she proved she was a winner and could take it to the #1 player. No she didn't win it per say - but she won it per say.

She didn't need the money. She helped her ranking out. She wanted to end the year the way she started w/a huge win - but was unable to do it. But somehow to me - she and her family are not be tooooo down tonight - because of her effort. Sometimes effort = V I C T O R Y.

Hopefully in her mind - and although she didn't technically win - she will feel she won a lot today - w/her effort - attitude and desire.

And lastly - I can't believe some feel that Jen could never beat Serena again. On any given day - one player may be on and the other off - or they both may be on and off - but one gets the break-break, and/or outright spanks their opponent's tail. Winning the match surely is tallied up in one player's column - but IMO - there are many other victories to celebrate in a match like today's.

I celebrate Jen's attitude - and even if she's had it all along - it's good to see - she's still got it - Yo.

The way she was being dragged down because of her play indoors this season probably messed w/her some - but the way she played today - IMO - has to make her feel more validated than she had been feeling. And that is a good thing. In essence -I hope Jen is feeling up tonight and not down.

CC
Nov 11th, 2002, 02:42 AM
... and how can she possibly pull out last minute when she actually started the match.

o0O0o
Nov 11th, 2002, 02:46 AM
Unfortunately, this match was equally as predictable as the last five. Jen comes close, loses. Yawn. Until I see Serena walking off the court not having won a match, the tour will be its same predictable self. Congratulations Serena, you will be the death of the sport.

Brought It!
Nov 11th, 2002, 02:50 AM
Originally posted by o0O0o
Congratulations Serena, you will be the death of the sport.

hmmmmm, I'm hoping she'll HOLD IT DOWN the same way Steffi Graf and Martina N. did.

Now, I would love that.

PhoenixStorm
Nov 11th, 2002, 03:22 AM
Hater.

Lisbeth
Nov 11th, 2002, 04:57 AM
Of course they can be beaten. People have short memories that only a few short years ago it was "Can anyone ever beat Hingis and Davenport?" and both Williams had losing records against both those players and had never won slams.

Then no-one could supposedly ever again beat Venus at Wimby or US Open. And it did look that way for two years, no doubt about it. Serena was never supposed to beat Venus at a slam, either (ha!).

This year it was the "unbeatable" Serena, and the Williams sisters waaaaay out in front.

But new champs will come along, as always. It might be Kim, or Daniela, or someone we don't even know yet, but the Williams will not have it all their own way forever.

Meanwhile, congratulations to Venus and Serena. They've survived personal and physical traumas in the past few years and grown up a lot. They've been the class players of the year. I hope they're enjoying it regardless of whether it lasts or not!

Dawn Marie
Nov 11th, 2002, 06:23 AM
GOGOGIRL this thread completely lost me. lol

Anyway, this match was nothing new. Actually I thought it looked like Jen was on drugs. To make her faster for Serena. Just my opinion.

Anyway, Serena won and imho played the points better then Jen. :) Infact I thought Serena played better, she won.:)

Harloo well said.LOL:)

Tratree
Nov 11th, 2002, 07:05 AM
Originally posted by Dawn Marie
Anyway, this match was nothing new. Actually I thought it looked like Jen was on drugs. To make her faster for Serena. Just my opinion.


What a ridiculous unfounded statement. Jen "looked like she was on drugs"??? Serena and Jennifer played an incredible match and Jen came up short. Serena was pushed to the brink and SHE knows it. Her serve bailed her out big time.

Your girl wins and you still have to take a dig at Jennifer with some stupid ass remark about drugs. :rolleyes:

Dawn Marie
Nov 11th, 2002, 07:09 AM
Imho it looked like Jen was faster then her normal self. It's just an opinion. I have no facts to support it. Just my opinion.:)

Tratree
Nov 11th, 2002, 07:12 AM
Jennifer looked faster because she is back in good shape. She said she felt back to her early 2001 shape. She works with her trainer constantly. She was running the steps at Staples today before the matches. THAT is why she is running faster.

Crazy Canuck
Nov 11th, 2002, 07:15 AM
Once again - trying to rationalize and make sense of the irrational...

...lost cause...

;)

franny
Nov 11th, 2002, 07:15 AM
yea, u gotta believe when u go out there that u can win, and u gotta take it to them, martina hingis used to believe she can win every single time, but now she's kinda backed away from that and is much less fearless. You can't be intimidated by the williams sisters, you've juss gotta go out there and play their game, and they CAN be overpowered! just dont kno by who.....yet

chris_hall
Nov 11th, 2002, 08:51 AM
Serena always makes lots of errors in her matches, she hit 53 UFE, to Jenns 23. But she hits alot of winners too, she hit 42. She plays high risk tennis, some you miss some you get. However, some of the errors she did, Capriati forced her to do, e.g In the first set when serena kept hitting that wide backhand, and trying to wrong foot Jen, but Jen kept going back and then she sliced it over, kept the ball low and made serena have to hit up on the ball, but she hit it in the net, if she had of hit it up, Capriati would of smashed it down. Which drew Serena to make the error.

I also feel that the serve was a big factor in that match, Jenn in this tourdament seems to have cut down on the double faults. In the match she did 7, and Serena did 8. In the toudament, Serena did 18, Jenn did 19. Which are close, Jenn normal does about 19 in a match. However, Serena gets free points and aces of her first serve, she hit 14 aces to Jenns 2. If Capriati this winter works very hard on her serve and improves it, she would be hard to break. Jenn broke Serena 5 times, Serena broke Jenn 5 times, Jenn had 17 break points, Serena had 13. It seems weird, as Serenas serve is alot better than Capriatis, yet Jenn could break it and get break points. If Serena could only break Jenn 5 times with that serve then if she improved her serve, would the match of had the same outcome. e.g Serena has a break point, Jenn gets a big first serve in, to force an error.

Jenns mental game was awesome today, who thought that after suffering losses like 6-0 6-3 and 6-1 6-1, she would come to this event, get to the semis and take a set of Serena 6-2? Jenn didn't moan and complain like she normal does and stayed focoused and determined, that helped her alot, if she could keep the attitude it would help her. Serena use to be like that in 2001, but she then just shut up on court and got on with it and stayed focoused.

Both girls had remrkable fitness, Serenas iS great. Jenns worked on hers and shes now back to her old fitness, she could run for alot more than she could at the start of the year. At the French against Serena Jenn said she felt tired in the 3rd set and didn't give it everything, thats because of her fitness, but now shes improved it she can now feel better in long matches and play the 3rd set better. In Australia, it will be a big factor, you need to be fit to be able to run in the blazing heat in Australia, your not aloud to get tired.

I think today showed why Serenas no.1 and Jenns no.3, altough thinking about how many sets and close matches Venus and Serena played this year, and how many Jenn and Serena played.
Jenn vs. Serena

SF Roland Garros May 27 2002 S Williams(3) - J Capriati(1) 3-6 7-62 6-2

SF Rome May 13 2002 S Williams(4) - J Capriati(2) 6-2 3-6 7-5

F Key Biscayne Mar 18 2002 S Williams(8) - J Capriati(1) 7-5 7-64

F Scottsdale Feb 25 2002 S Williams(3) - J Capriati(1) 6-2 4-6 6-4

Serena vs. Venus

F US Open Aug 26 2002 S Williams(1) - V Williams(2) 6-4 6-2

F Wimbledon June 24 2002 S Williams(2) - V Williams(1) 7-64 6-3

F Roland Garros May 27 2002 S Williams(3) - V Williams(2) 7-5 6-3

SF Key Biscayne Mar 18 2002 S Williams(8) - V Williams(2) 6-2 6-2

All straight sets wins. So next year, who knows what threats the Williams will have. Serenas biggest threat this year was Jenn, all 3 sets, apart from 1 (7-5 7-6). Also, Seles looked great and caused trouble, but she needs a bit of speed I think.

servenrichie
Nov 11th, 2002, 11:33 AM
Gogogirl, i believe Venus and Serena go into their matches believing they are going to win, which is the way it should be with other girls also. I really have no idea which point you are trying to make here. Serena nad Capriatis matches have always been close. A close match means one point here, one point there and it could have gone either way.
The mental aspect is then what is decisive in such close matches and Serena clearly has the edge now thanks in part to Capriati.

A win is win. End of the story!

Infiniti2001
Nov 11th, 2002, 03:13 PM
Congratulations Serena, you will be the death of the sport.

You mean like Hingis killed it in 1997??? Sour grapes. Heehee!!

wongqks
Nov 11th, 2002, 03:26 PM
Of course Serena can be beaten. but no one has ever come close to beat her consistently, and until then, Serena will always rise to the challenge especially in big tournament in Grand Slam, let's see how Kim flair tonight, and we will have a clearer idea

Uxobi
Nov 11th, 2002, 03:41 PM
:rolleyes: STOP the insanity!

Serendy Willick
Nov 11th, 2002, 04:19 PM
Jesus, we already know that Serena and Venus are gonna lose, but they are gonna win alot more than they lose also. We know that there are great challengers out there, thats what makes the sport fun and competitive to watch. Steffi Graf lost some wozers in her day, but you dont here people in here harp and harp about how to challenge Steffi.

GogoGirl
Nov 11th, 2002, 07:12 PM
I didn’t start this thread to start controversy – or to debate whether the Sisters need challengers. Again my point is that – many in the tennis world should be feeling better about the state of women’s tennis at this season’s end – because they see that there is fair competition for the Sisters on tour, so they need to stop w/all the complaining and speculation. We’ve even heard some players bemoan the fact that the Sisters are bad for tennis by winning everything in their path. Remember Momo’s, Justine’s and others’ comments this past summer about how sick the fans were getting of watching an all Williams final?

They commented that even the fans were getting tired of watching the Sisters reach every final. Some players admitted that the Sisters were better players at the moment – and they are right. Some commented that they would try to reach #3 in the world because no one would be able to catch V&S. And some said, that it was no point trying to beat them – because they were just tooooo good. What????!!!!@%$%#@!

When would these players change their tunes? Do they mean to tell me, that they could never beat the Sisters as long as they played tennis – so they might as well not even try? How does that sound? With attitudes like that – they may as well stay home, because they’d already be down a set w/that attitude. Jennifer on the other hand, was like “hold up here – cause I still feel as if I can hang w/Serena and beat her.” Now what is wrong w/her thinking like that? Nothing. Everything is right for her to go into a match w/that kind of attitude. On yesterday – she proved again that she could hang w/’Lil Sis. Who cares if she’s said it before? The point is – she should say and believe it. Ain’t nothing wrong w/a little bump and grind and trash talking. All players should feel as such.

Some want to bring up that we already knew the Sisters can be beaten – and then the ones that beat them were named. In some folks minds –it doesn’t help knowing that some could sneak a win in against them every 90 days or so. They want to know and understand that there are players that can pose a challenge to the Sisters in every tourney. I agree that when Martina & Lindsay were dominating there were not those that bemoaned their success like they do the Sisters now. And of course – it’s not fair. I’ve been fed up w/hearing it all - but in the final analysis – just pointing out that difference in attitudes is not going to cure the reasons for all the griping that has gone on about the Sister’s domination on the tour these days.

I just wanted to stress the point that all is not lost on the tour because the Sisters have been the most consistent winners in 2002. If a player wants to knock off a Williams – they have to go into the match feeling as if they got a legitimate chance of winning. IMO – it helps the other players when a Monica, Jelena or Jen can hang with - and/or take it to one of the Sisters for a set or throughout the entire match during the year-end championship. This will get them motivated and reinforce that they may also beat a Williams. Remember some players never felt they could beat Martina until they saw how the PPs started exploiting her weaknesses. Maybe most players will never exploit the Sisters weaknesses, and if that is the case – then rule on Sisters.

My point about Jen is just that, I liked her attitude yesterday. I like the fact that she smiled and patted Serena on the shoulder. It was the first match in a long time to where Jen walked off the court and met Serena at the net w/a smile. I thought it was a classic moment. She felt good about herself. She felt her game was redeemed some by proving she could play indoors. She had nothing to hang her head about – because she knows she only lost by four points.

IMO – after all the battles and fights in the media this year by some – it was good to see Jen w/that kind of attitude after such a tough loss. To me – it bodes well for all of us in the tennis family that love ourselves some WTA tennis. It was truly touching IMO to see Jen smile at the net. Only in that sense did I mean she was a winner. By proving to herself, her family, her fans – and all of us in the tennis world that she can go toe-to-toe w/Serena and almost pull it out. Of course a win is a win – and I am very happy Serena pulled it out. I think we all were victorious yesterday because we witnessed a thrilling and classic match. It proves that winning against a Williams is a battle – but players shouldn’t concede the war.

Talk about mental toughness – surely Serena is mentally tough – but so is Jen. A match can turn on a dime because of ues, aces, foot faults, and etc. Doesn’t it really come down to skill – breaks – luck and fate in some cases? It is not always about mental toughness. It sometimes is about just plain old skill. If Jen had of won – would folks now be saying that she is more mentally tough than Serena again? Would this mean – that whomever won a match on any given day was the most mentally tough on that day? If so – then I’ll buy it – but I don’t think it is all about mentally tough. It is usually about better play from one-player ova another IMO.

So my bottom line is: folks need to stop bitching and complaining about whether there will be another all-Williams final, and if so – will it be bad for tennis, and that some are tired of them winning, etc. That is the point I’m trying to make. I’m tired of hearing it because it is getting old. We all agree, that they can be beat.

I have to say that I’m pleased w/the way the season is ending. I think the exhibition matches to be held in Belgium & Dublin will be a fitting end to a tense year, that featured the Williams Sisters’ domination. They deserve what they’ve accomplished this year, and hopefully true fans can accept it if not appreciate it.

I feel that most of us on this board are part of a board family. We are here because we love tennis, our faves and competitive matches. We should give ourselves a hand.

Group hug.

Larrybid
Nov 11th, 2002, 07:25 PM
An observation on the state of the WTA today:

A few days ago everybody was praising Monica Seles for how fantastic she played in a straight set loss to an very ordinary playing Venus Williams.

Today people are praising Cappy to high Heaven (with good reason) for a close loss to Serena Williams, who was playing in poor form for most of the match (ie. her forehand was loose and her 1 st serve unusually off target - and she was getting visibly angry about it).

To a Williams fan like myself, this is Heaven. Of course the sisters can be beat, but what is gratifying is thay can both be a little off and STILL beat the other girls playing near their best. It's no fun beating Cappy if she's playing like crap, or beating Dokic when she totally tanks a set. I want the competition playing great, and giving thier fans visions of granduer, and yet getting beat by a Williams sister anyway.

Volcana
Nov 11th, 2002, 07:31 PM
In some folks minds –it doesn’t help knowing that some could sneak a win in against them every 90 days or so. They want to know and understand that there are players that can pose a challenge to the Sisters in every tourney.

If that's your point, I don't think we're there yet. I see no players who pose a threat to Venus or Serena " in every tourney." What I see is, a dozen players who, every 5th or 6th time they play Venus or Serena, raise the level of their game and give V or S a fight. Maybe even win. But 80% of the time, it's still gonna be a pretty predictable win for Venus or Serena.

harloo
Nov 11th, 2002, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by GogoGirl
Harloo - where is the misstep on my part again? All summer and fall long, some have been concerned with the Sisters winning streak. They have declared that the Sisters are bad for tennis and some 'mo stuff. They are considering boycotting tourneys and what not because of the Sisters winning ways. My point is to state that the Sisters can be beaten. One lost by default in the semis and one almost lost. It is that simple.

Gogogirl, to be honest their is always detractors when someone is dominating on the women's side. Some disliked Monica, and Martina N. because they dominated. Venus and Serena are no different IMO. Of course some feel domination is boring, but I have never seen such a campaign from the tennis establishment to dethrone the sisters. Yes, IMO it is very possible for them to lose because Jen, Davenport, and Kim can beat them on any given day.

One sisters loses by default, which happens in tennis all the time.
Also, Serena has almost lost to Jen the last 3 or 4 times they played. Everytime Serena was down, so I don't understand what you are talking about.

Of course we all know that Jen has beaten Serena - but she hasn't beaten her lately. Pam - Cliff & Mary Jo were hoping Jen gave a good showing - and she did indeed - so they got their wish. The Jen fans should be proud and take heart from her effort because she was there. In the end, Serena gets another win in her column and I am thrilled - but I'm sure serena will admit that at one point - she was worried because Jen was taking it to her.

IMO, Jen has had a good showing against Serena in all their matches that Serena won. I have them on tape, and Jen never is out of it against Serena. I worry when Serena plays Jen, because Jen fights till the end and you can never count her out.
Also, of course the commentators wan't Serena or Venus to lose. Mary Jo and Pam favor Capriati, which is just they way things are.
IMO, I'm glad that both ladies are taking it to each other and now Serena is ready to go to the end with Jen. Remember, Jen use to have the mental edge over Serena because Rena would give up. Now we can see some even more compelling matchups between the two.

For the good of the WTA - I think it was a great matchup for the suspense of it. It gave TPsTB something to cheer about knowing that Jen almost beat one of the mighty Sisters. I think this should bode well for the first tourneys of the year. It will be good for the tennis world to understand and know that the Sisters are only human and can be beaten. That's all. With all the comments about how bad the Sisters are for tennis - like BR stated - this tourney will demonstrate that they do have challengers.


So let's bring 'em on in 2003.

I think the matchup is good for the womens game. Just like Martina vs Venus was at one point. However, GogoGirl ANYONE CAN BE BEATEN ON ANY GIVEN DAY! Even the mighty Williams Sisters. What I'm sick of is this perception that the sisters are doing something wrong when they are winning. It's not their fault that some players didn't step up. The "world" as you call it should be boycotting the other players on the tour for rolling over.

I will say that it's nice to see the sisters being challenged, but I don't feel like they should be criticized for playing at a higher level tthan the rest.

GogoGirl
Nov 11th, 2002, 07:45 PM
Volcana - and the point is, that all the players should go into each tourney feeling as if they can beat a Williams - whether the odds are in their favor or not. That-a-way - they may just pull an upset - or play a more competitive match.

Of course we know that at least 70% of the players have no chance aginst the Sisters - but out of that 70% - one or two can pull an upset - regardless of the surface and etc. The other 30% of the players stand a chance on winning against them on their own merit alone - although if they go into the match feeling they have no chance then their odds in winning will go down also.

Perfect example to me - is the Chanda match between Venus - 2002 US Open. Chanda meant business. She felt strongly that she knew how to play Venus. She almost pulled off an upset. At this point in the game - I just think it's nice to give players like that extra props for almost doing it - that's all. Chanda had a plan and strategy. Should the other players try to come up w/a strategy to beat them - or should they just play their game?

Larrybid
Nov 11th, 2002, 07:46 PM
Volcana, I would disagree slightly. Their are several players who could beat Venus or Serena in any tournament, provided they sisters played poorly enough. So to that extent, these players are a "threat" in every tournament. The argument is on how big a threat. As it stands now you have a better chance of getting a bad match out of Venus than you do against Serena. That's why one's a clear number one and the other a clear number 2 - and the rest of the Tour's only hope is to catch either of them on a off night.

GogoGirl
Nov 11th, 2002, 07:58 PM
Harloo - forgive me - but I am not criticizing the Sisters. I agree that it is the player's own lack of skillz - talent or what have you - for their not winning. I also agree that the Sisters should have never been asked the question - "are they bad for tennis?" I am the last person that would down the Sisters for dominating. I love it. I root for them all the time. I never root for any other player when the Sisters are on court.

I just wanted to make the point, that okay - some players have come close to beating them here lately. Some players have beaten them this year - so the dog hounds need to back up and reach the same conclusions we have - and that is that the Sisters are just too good now. And until someone steps up and knocks them out - they will continue to rule. But don't keep harping on how bad they are for tennis because they rule.

They need to do something about it. On this we do agree.
The other players need to find out a way to beat them consistently - yet - I don't think most of them will win consistently ova the Sisters - but if they hold the belief that they can win the match - well then - that is half of thier battle. Believing it may not help them to win - but in not believing it - they stand no chance.

For the most part - and w/any player - 4 out of 6 cylinders must be working during the match for the ultimate winner. If Serena's serve was completely off in a match - and she was playing a good/great player - would she still win? I'm not sure. I would be praying during the match that she got her serve together. So there will always be factors as to why a player wins or loses.

Rubylips
Nov 11th, 2002, 08:10 PM
I just can"t wait ,until next year.I know MR.Williams will have his girls pract,pract .Richard will go back on those notes .Venus Serena will come to the game,at least 90 %.They"re about 80% now.They will pract, just like the other girls.Just can"t wait till 2003.PEACE

harloo
Nov 11th, 2002, 08:14 PM
Ok gogogirl, I can settle for that. lol.

But you don't think Jen is a great player? Serena's serve was off in that match, but she somehow pulled it off. I think in order to be a champion you have to find a way to win. Serena, Venus, Jen, Davenport, and Seles all have this will to win and most of the time they come through.

I do feel that if Rena's serve is off then it is possible for her to lose, just like any other player. It amazed me how Serena was able to get through that match when she even admitted herself that she has been chilling in Hollywood. Jen wasn't playing around either.

TSequoia01
Nov 11th, 2002, 08:30 PM
Both Venus and Serena rightly or wrongly mentally finished their year after the Open. They Historically do little in the fall. This is the time to pursue their other varied interest. Serena's form IMO has been dropping since Wimby. Everyone was talking about how well she played at the Open but I did not see. True she won rather easily but to me her level slipped. Her matches at Wimby against Mauresmo and Venus were plain awesome. The power and precision of her shots were unprecedented. The Serena that showed up at the Championships was far below her former level. Yet she still defeated Jen. So either Jen's form now is being overstated or she will be in real trouble come 2003. Let me say also that keeping an ultimate form for an entire year probably is impossible, and that is what makes the tour interesting. But players must defeat the elite players when they are less than their best because what will they do the rest of the time? :cool: