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austinrunner
Oct 13th, 2011, 08:39 AM
This should be its own thread.

austinrunner
Oct 13th, 2011, 08:41 AM
I believe that Mrs. Court continues to shove her prejudice against the GLBT community down the throats of anyone who will listen or give her the forum to do so. And she's definitely still involved in tennis. Take a look at the interview she gave in January 2010, http://www.scotsman.com/sport/margaret_court_courting_controversy_1_1364266, where she said the following:

I should have won a lot more. I beat myself at different times. This is the truth. If I'd known then what I know now I'd have won six Wimbledons instead of three. I'd have won a lot more tournaments. ... In the scriptures it does say that homosexuality is a sin of the flesh and it is something we can change. I remember a mother telling me that her son was fine until somebody told him, "I think you're gay." He took that thought and he started to think on it so much that he believed that's what he was. There will be some reason that they are the way they are. But God made Adam and Eve and male and female to multiply the Earth.When asked in that same interview whether King and Navratilova are lesser people because they're lesbian, Mrs. Court said:

No, no, I don't think less of them. But my view is that it's a lifestyle they've chosen which they didn't have to. And I'll say this, if I had a child playing tennis today I wouldn't let that child go on her own on the circuit because I think there is a wrong spirit on the women's tour. Young people can get snared into that world. People go into homosexuality thinking they're like that and they're actually not. I'd want to keep them on the straight and narrow.

Her official biography on the webpage of her Victory Life Centre begins with her kissing the Wimbledon singles trophy and says (http://www.victorylifecentre.com.au/blog/?page_id=2):

Margaret Court is an Australian Champion; the world’s most successful tennis player ever. Three times Wimbledon champion and with 62 Grand Slam titles. For sheer strength, performance and accomplishment there has never been a tennis player to match Margaret Court who took the Grand Slam by winning Australian, French, Wimbledon and US singles in 1970, to be only the second woman ever to achieve this. But its her life after tennis that sees the now, Rev Dr Court taking her champion spirit into another realm, pastoring Victory Life Centre, a thriving church of 1800 members just 10 minutes north of Perth City.

Philbo
Oct 13th, 2011, 10:03 AM
I do not have much time at all for Margaret Court. She has proven her homophobia time and time again.

My problem with her is rather personal. When she said Martina was a bad role model due to her sexuality, it was the most infuriating thing Ive ever heard because of my own personal experience...

Ive posted this story before, but the reason I love Martina so much is about more than tennis. I came across her as a 10 year old in 87.. By 1989 I was 12 and having my first sexual experiences and realising/accepting that you're different to everyone else in a small rural town of 5 thousand people was a very terrifying thing to go through... So my teenage years were filled with sleepless nights laying in bed worrying about the day when all my friends and family would shun me for being gay... So in 1990, when I saw Martina climb the stands to hug Judy Nelson, I was old enough to know that Judy was her lover... So that scene (and the many interviews where Martina spoke up on behalf of the gay community) were the two biggest factors, that helped me through those scarey nights worrying about everyone hating me for being gay - I remember clinging to the thought 'Martina is gay and people like her and she obviously has people who love her around her so it MUST be possible to be gay and lead a decent life'..... Given the outrageous stats about how much higher gay youth suicide is than straight youths, its examples like what Martina set that actually make her THE BEST role model for gay youth.

If I was rather religious and came across comments from Court, it'd have pushed me down the darker road of being sure the life ahead of me was going to be one long awful struggle and Id end up in hell at the end of it.

Having said all that, she's just another religious wingnut imo.

alfajeffster
Oct 13th, 2011, 10:52 AM
...If I was rather religious and came across comments from Court, it'd have pushed me down the darker road of being sure the life ahead of me was going to be one long awful struggle and Id end up in hell at the end of it.

Having said all that, she's just another religious wingnut imo.

My parents both accepted the fact, but we never really talked about it. Mom simply gave me a newspaper clipping about this new disease killing gay men called AIDS, and now and again referred to me as her little "interior decorator" when I lived at home and got ambitious. My dad was Archie Bunker to the T, and I know I sometimes embarrassed him, but I also know he loved me. His only words about the subject were just as you said, "it's a hard life". He thought it was a choice I could just turn away from, and he even fixed me up with a girl to take out on a date once. Needless to say, she didn't stick. None of my experiences with Mom and Dad was bad, and I just accepted that it was a taboo subject, and joined the Navy and ended up in San Francisco, with my mother praying for me the whole time. Not everyone grows up with that parental support (albeit something we disagreed upon). Many kids are disowned and even physically harmed. It does need the light of day. Remember Bronski Beat's "Smalltown Boy"? It rings as true today as when it was first released in the early 80s. Oh, and to the creator of this thread, it's Reverend, not Reverand.

Philbo
Oct 13th, 2011, 11:51 AM
My parents both accepted the fact, but we never really talked about it. Mom simply gave me a newspaper clipping about this new disease killing gay men called AIDS, and now and again referred to me as her little "interior decorator" when I lived at home and got ambitious. My dad was Archie Bunker to the T, and I know I sometimes embarrassed him, but I also know he loved me. His only words about the subject were just as you said, "it's a hard life". He thought it was a choice I could just turn away from, and he even fixed me up with a girl to take out on a date once. Needless to say, she didn't stick. None of my experiences with Mom and Dad was bad, and I just accepted that it was a taboo subject, and joined the Navy and ended up in San Francisco, with my mother praying for me the whole time. Not everyone grows up with that parental support (albeit something we disagreed upon). Many kids are disowned and even physically harmed. It does need the light of day. Remember Bronski Beat's "Smalltown Boy"? It rings as true today as when it was first released in the early 80s. Oh, and to the creator of this thread, it's Reverend, not Reverand.
LOL @ 'my little interior decorator'.. I like that!

I was the equivalent of the high school football captain (which was great cover so noone would suspect), and I was playing rugby for my hometown by the age of 18, quite well known around town.. So I used to lay there and think of the reality vs the image people had of me... Once my parents found out, they were actually incredible supportive, but I would never have imagined they could be so supportive at age 13, 14, 15 etc

tennisvideos
Oct 13th, 2011, 12:22 PM
Should this even be in a tennis forum? Well if it remains, have fun with further propelling hatred and judging others. As far as I am concerned, slagging off others for their beliefs is just as hypocritical as anything Margaret has said. Hate is hate and just begets more hate. It's a never ending spiral. And unless you have walked in another's shoes, who are we to judge? We have no idea what path has taken someone to reach their own beliefs - and their beliefs are just that - their truth.

Oh who cares ... get on with your bashing for I shan't be back in this thread.

Philbo
Oct 13th, 2011, 03:08 PM
Should this even be in a tennis forum? Well if it remains, have fun with further propelling hatred and judging others. As far as I am concerned, slagging off others for their beliefs is just as hypocritical as anything Margaret has said. Hate is hate and just begets more hate. It's a never ending spiral. And unless you have walked in another's shoes, who are we to judge? We have no idea what path has taken someone to reach their own beliefs - and their beliefs are just that - their truth.

Oh who cares ... get on with your bashing for I shan't be back in this thread.

Sorry Craig, but when she goes public with her comments and feelings about homosexuals, then it opens it up for us to say what we think of her opinion of us.. I agree with 'unless you've walked in anothers shoes, who are we to judge' - if Madge followed that exact same train of thought, we wouldnt be in here attacking her for her homophobia :)

alfajeffster
Oct 13th, 2011, 06:06 PM
LOL @ 'my little interior decorator'.. I like that!

I was the equivalent of the high school football captain (which was great cover so noone would suspect), and I was playing rugby for my hometown by the age of 18, quite well known around town.. So I used to lay there and think of the reality vs the image people had of me... Once my parents found out, they were actually incredible supportive, but I would never have imagined they could be so supportive at age 13, 14, 15 etc

Oh, my dad would've loved you. Outside of tennis, I wasn't interested in baseball, football, or going hunting with Dad and my brother. I did once, but stayed in the cabin cooking while they went out and froze their butts off waiting for a buck to pass by. When he was playing professional baseball, and in New Orleans, he and a bunch of players used to invade the drag queen section of town to get drunk and make fun. I was always thankful he showed me unconditional love, because I had an idea what he might have been capable of with someone else. He just thought I needed a girl and everything would be good.

austinrunner
Oct 14th, 2011, 07:34 AM
In 1990, Court said that Martina Navratilova and other lesbian and bisexual players were ruining the sport of tennis and setting a bad example for younger players. (http://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/24/sports/gay-bias-moves-off-the-sidelines.html?pagewanted=2&src=pm)

In November 1994, when delivering a speech at Parliament House in Canberra, Mrs. Court exclaimed, "Homosexuality is an abomination to the Lord! Abortion is an abomination to the Lord!"

In 2001, a gay-rights reform law was proposed (and eventually passed) in the parliament of Western Australia. The law proposed to lower the age of homosexual consent from 21 to 16, bring gay awareness into schools, and give same-sex couples the same rights as married ones. In November 2001, Mrs. Court said while stridently campaigning against the law (http://www.galewa.asn.au/component/content/article/87-other-australian-newspapers/388-courts-crusade.html): (http://www.galewa.asn.au/component/content/article/87-other-australian-newspapers/388-courts-crusade.html%29:)

God's hand is on this nation [Australia]. I believe we will see revival. I believe we will see such a move of God and I think that people don't want it to go back into darkness like some other nations have. Immorality threatens to engulf the state. When we start making something that is wrong right in the eyes of people, there is a price to pay. You can't go into schools and take that [homosexuality] in and say it is right because, in the scriptures, in the word of God, God created Adam for Eve. He didn't create Adam for Steve, or Eve for Mary. And what we do is we start to open the nation to more immorality, to more darkness. I think people have had enough of what is happening in society. People are thinking about it a lot more, people are looking a lot more. They want some of the good morals to come back. They need foundation. We [her taskforce against the reform law] believe that ... if you start to come against the family and you start to tell people what is right when it is wrong, then we will become a force in this city [Perth]. This government had better watch out. I think when it comes around to next election there are people out there who may not be Christian, but morally they know that things are wrong.In a roundtable discussion on ABC radio on 5 December 2001 about the gay-rights reform law, the following was said (http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2001/s433523.htm): (http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2001/s433523.htm%29:)

JIM MCGINTY, WA ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I think, in Western Australia, we have lagged a long way behind the other States when it's come to a whole host of issues.

PASTOR MARGARET COURT, VICTORY LIFE CHURCH: What this Labor Government is doing right across the nation is so wrong. I just hope that those men and women can sleep of a night.

JIM MCGINTY: We're the most homophobic State. Our current laws are the most discriminatory in the nation. We're going to fix that.

PASTOR MARGARET COURT: Jesus Christ loves the homosexual but he hates the sin and we love the homosexual and we're there to help them to overcome it.

JIM MCGINTY: Gay sex between people aged 16 to 21 is punishable by five years' imprisonment. I don't think there's any parent anywhere that would want to expose their son, or their daughter for that matter, to the prospect of imprisonment for doing what comes naturally to them.

PASTOR MARGARET COURT: What they do behind the scenes is their business but to be able to do it out on the streets in front of our young is very wrong.

MICK O'DONNELL: Through IVF [in vitro fertilization], Leanne has already had Blake and twins are on the way. While Kerry [her cousin], who has a woman partner, is denied.

KERRY MCGUCKIN: It's just so discriminatory that I can't, and we both have the same problem, very similar, in fact we have the same doctor, but I can't go any further with my quest for another child.

PASTOR MARGARET COURT: Two females to have one -- a child and then they bring up that child, who most likely would come up in that circumstance as a lesbian, I don't think that that's healthy at all.

KERRY MCGUCKIN: So any child would be a lesbian. I just find that quite ludicrous. Um, there's plenty of gay children that come out of straight families and there's plenty of straight children that come out of gay families. So it does not matter what the environment is. It's what's inside one's heart.

PASTOR MARGARET COURT: I love my nation. I played for my nation and I just see families being destroyed, whether it's through homosexuality. You see a marriage breakdown, you see children being abused.In 2002, Court said that homosexuals commit "sins of the flesh" and can be "changed." She also said that when she went overseas as a naive young person, she did not realise "that all existed," although two top players were lesbians. She said when open tennis began, "there was quite a lot of it in there." Young players would mix with "a few of the older ones that were that way" and "they were sort of snared in with it, and then we finished up having quite a lot of them on tour that were like that." (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/12/19/1040174301749.html)

In a speech at the Australian National Marriage conference in 2004, Mrs. Court called homosexuality a "sin of the flesh" and claimed that children of same-sex parents felt "shame and guilt." "I think they're thinking about a relationship for their own selfishness and not for the children." (http://www.solidarity.net.au/current/the-fight-for-same-sex-marriage-rights-under-labor and http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=11303)

In 2008, Perth Lord Mayor Lisa Scaffidi said that she wished to make Perth as gay-friendly as Sydney and San Francisco. Mrs. Court responded (http://hoydenabouttown.com/20080929.2254/perth-homophobes-hyperventilate-over-mayors-call): (http://hoydenabouttown.com/20080929.2254/perth-homophobes-hyperventilate-over-mayors-call%29:)

Ms Scaffidi’s comments did not represent the majority of people or families with values.On 11 August 2011, Mrs. Court said in her blog (http://www.victorylifecentre.com.au/blog/?p=37): (http://www.victorylifecentre.com.au/blog/?p=37%29:)

It is a time, in the history of our Nation, where we need to make a stand for righteousness for the family. God ordained family and marriage between a man and a woman. With such a decline of immorality in our nation we need to protect family like never before.

In Genesis 2:24 it says: “Therefore, a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife and they shall become one flesh.” It says it again in Ephesians 5:31. Marriage is ordained by God – it is all the way through the bible that a husband and wife would multiply the earth.

The bible is a living book; it is our TV guide to life and how to have a successful marriage and how to raise a family. It also says that homosexuality, adultery, fornification, is an abomination. God loves the person and we are to love the people but nowhere does it say that two people of the same sex should marry and have children.

Let us all be a Voice and stand up for marriage and family as God has ordained it.On 5 October 2011, Mrs. Court said in response to a comment about her blog (http://www.victorylifecentre.com.au/blog/?p=37): (http://www.victorylifecentre.com.au/blog/?p=37%29:)

Thank you for your comment. Because a person doesn’t agree that homosexuality is right doesn’t mean they are insecure or fearful or that they don’t love the people; and yes all mankind has a right to be loved. No matter what the argument, living a homosexual lifestyle is not what we were created for. God created Eve for Adam, not Steve.

Philbo
Oct 14th, 2011, 09:02 AM
Oh she really loved the old chestnut line of 'god made adam and eve not adam and steve' - very original Madge...

alfajeffster
Oct 14th, 2011, 09:11 AM
I can't hold back on much of that post. The "Bible" as we know it was written by a patriarchal Hebrew society, and the general design is to control women, who just happened to be prominent in peaceful societies that pre-date Hebrew and Islamic dogma by thousands of years. There are all sorts of symbols and religious icons that the Catholic church borrowed from thee early "pagan" lifestyles. An educated conversation on this usually falls on deaf, indoctrinated ears, so I choose not to go there on most occasions.

GeeTee
Oct 14th, 2011, 10:57 AM
So - since there are so many experts on what MARGARET says about homosexuality in tennis, how many times has she actually been quoted on this subject in her 70+ year old life????

Is it three supposed quotes from interviews in the last 25 years???? (15 years after she retired from playing the game)?

And WHY do so many people want to ask her about this subject???

Should people be asking BJK about her views on bi-sexuality or abortion?

Asking Martina about her views on republican politics or what her parents think/thought about homosexualit??

Asking Olga Morozova what she thinks about communism??

Asking Monica Seles what she thinks about passport-swapping???

Asking Sue Barker about her 'relationship' with Cliff Richard????

Geez....

alfajeffster
Oct 14th, 2011, 05:44 PM
Oh she really loved the old chestnut line of 'god made adam and eve not adam and steve' - very original Madge...

Just as an aside, God did indeed make Adam and Steve, and boy did she do a great job!

Rollo
Oct 14th, 2011, 09:10 PM
I'll introduce some thoughts here. Please express your thoughts freely. "Freely" extending thoughts does not extend however to name calling or being rude to other posters.

So....


1. Remember I'm on vacation.

2. Be NICE to each other:)

3. Very Nice. Because should the mod have to intrude on this thread before he returns from vacation he will not be very nice. He will be very Zeus-like and hurling thunderbolts or become a sort of Blast from the Past Pope and excommunicate his flock from our community.

Have fun discussing this in a civil and polite manner all

Rollo-van Brugge

P.S. The message above is a very general one and in no way is meant to target one person or group.

trivfun
Oct 14th, 2011, 09:19 PM
When he was playing professional baseball, and in New Orleans, he and a bunch of players used to invade the drag queen section of town to get drunk and make fun.

I heard this from about football great, Billy Cannon, except his was a bit more on the violent side.

austinrunner
Oct 14th, 2011, 09:51 PM
[H]ave fun with further propelling hatred and judging others. As far as I am concerned, slagging off others for their beliefs is just as hypocritical as anything Margaret has said. Hate is hate and just begets more hate. It's a never ending spiral. And unless you have walked in another's shoes, who are we to judge? We have no idea what path has taken someone to reach their own beliefs - and their beliefs are just that - their truth.

A person who notes another person's hate speech is not himself "propelling hatred and judging others." Nor does it "beget more hate." Nor is it hypocritical unless the first person has engaged in the same kind of speech. Mrs. Court may have excuses for her 20+ year campaign against the GLBT community and efforts by the government to liberalize its laws. But the excuses are irrelevant. She has used and continues to use her fame as a tennis champion to gain publicity for her prejudicial views, to the harm of adults and impressionable children. Refer to this article: http://www.glhv.org.au/files/aust_inst_homophobia_paper.pdf

alfajeffster
Oct 15th, 2011, 07:23 AM
I heard this from about football great, Billy Cannon, except his was a bit more on the violent side.

Remember, this was the early 50s, and most people (even baseball players) didn't yet sit down in front of a flat screen TV or surf the web for porn. This is the world of the childhood of Margaret Court. I can't imagine growing up in Albury can have been a party on the patio. I don't mean to offend any friends in Oz, but my experience there was as if many of the small communities outside of Sydney and Melbourne were stuck in this kind of time warp of the 50s. The fact that I spent most of my time in Canberra (one of the newest cities) further confused me, but after a while, I took it as the cultural experience it was. People were very down to earth, and very old-fashioned. I suppose you could say the same about rural USA, but New Orleans is definitely not one of those places. Even back then, it was fashionable and fun to go see a drag show in the Big Easy over a table full of drinks. Anywhere else, you'd get beat-up if people found out you were a fag.

thrust
Oct 15th, 2011, 10:55 PM
In reality, what has Margreat Court's opinions or beliefs about the Homosexual Community, have anything to do about tennis or her greatness as a tennis champion? Gays want everyone to love and accept them, which is impossible. People will always find a reasons to hate any group of people, due to their Race, Religion, Sexuality or Nationality. That's life, like it or not.

Pat Bateman
Oct 15th, 2011, 11:31 PM
In reality, what has Margreat Court's opinions or beliefs about the Homosexual Community, have anything to do about tennis or her greatness as a tennis champion? Gays want everyone to love and accept them, which is impossible. People will always find a reasons to hate any group of people, due to their Race, Religion, Sexuality or Nationality. That's life, like it or not.

Margaret is using her status as a great tennis champion to spread her hate message. Calling her out on her hate-mongering is perfectly reasonable under those circumstances.

If she were 'Margaret Brown' and was not a great tennis champion, nobody would give two hoots about her opinion.

trivfun
Oct 16th, 2011, 12:21 AM
Remember, this was the early 50s, and most people (even baseball players) didn't yet sit down in front of a flat screen TV or surf the web for porn. This is the world of the childhood of Margaret Court. I can't imagine growing up in Albury can have been a party on the patio. I don't mean to offend any friends in Oz, but my experience there was as if many of the small communities outside of Sydney and Melbourne were stuck in this kind of time warp of the 50s. The fact that I spent most of my time in Canberra (one of the newest cities) further confused me, but after a while, I took it as the cultural experience it was. People were very down to earth, and very old-fashioned. I suppose you could say the same about rural USA, but New Orleans is definitely not one of those places. Even back then, it was fashionable and fun to go see a drag show in the Big Easy over a table full of drinks. Anywhere else, you'd get beat-up if people found out you were a fag.

Remember though, you could get a certain "literature" from the mail. Many times unprovoked like junk mail then. You had folks who got busted for passing that. But for the most part, it was in private rooms and screenings of offices, colleges, and bars. It had a military attitude concerning secrecy.

austinrunner
Oct 16th, 2011, 08:16 AM
Margaret Court is entitled to live and speak her truth. She is not a hater, always saying that gays deserve to be loved as much as anyone, she just believes in the traditional family. She has also been hoodwinked (as have millions) by the Bible - which was written by hundreds of different people (NOT GOD) and also altered by the church of the centuries - and largely in order to try and CONTROL the minnows. If you want a more relevant and closer to the truth messages from our so called GOD/SOURCE then read up on Abraham (Esther HIcks) or Neale Donald Walshe and you will find out that the truth is ALL about LOVE and ACCEPTANCE of ALL.

I am gay and I can tell you I am not interested in 'marriage'. A silly human invention based on insecurity to try and sign one up for a lifetime of commitment regardless of whether you are happy or not. How ludicrous! Why not just share a time (or life) together as long as you are both happy and evolving. Why a need for a stupid contract?

We, as gays, want compassion and support and respect for OUR BELIEFS and LIFESTYLE. Many try to demand it. Of course ALL lifestyles should be ALLOWED and RESPECTED and ACCEPTED.

But we, as gays, should also ALLOW and RESPECT and ACCEPT other people's beliefs and lifestyle - whether they agree with us, condemn us, or at polar opposites with us. By slagging off others who don't accept us is being hypocritical IMO. We want others to accept us, but then there are many of us who will not accept other's beliefs (maybe because they are from an older generation of beliefs and we no longer agree with them). But we have to remember that these are those people's TRUTHS. Who are we to tell others how to live and what to believe when we want all to accept us?

My final point - THESE DISCUSSIONS ABOUT A PERSON'S BELIEFS ON SEXUALITY ETC HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH TENNIS. WHY ARE THEY EVEN ALLOWED IN A TENNIS FORUM? I come here to talk tennis, not to get involved in political, religious, or disucssions on sexuality and human behaviour and beliefs. I come here to have a good time talking about one of my passions - tennis.

To come here and find people targetting players that I have a passion for, is offensive repellent. If you go down that path why not single out others for their beliefs and choices and let's really drag this forum into the mud. As far as I am concerned, if you feel that strongly about this subject, go and spout off on a Gay website, or a religious website or an appropriate forum but let's stick to TENNIS here. This is what THIS FORUM is meant to be about isn't it?

And I stand by my belief - Margaret Court is not a hater. She just believes (more fool her) in the sanctity of the traditional male/female marriage. And as far as I am concerned they can have it.

And you said you were done responding to this issue....

If you were a woman in a relationship with another woman (married or not) -and- the two of you wanted to conceive a child through in vitro fertilization, Mrs. Court would want the government to deny you that most fundamental right. Not only does she want it, she publicly advocates for it and frequently mentions her tennis championships to increase her credibility.

If same sex partners (married or not) wanted to adopt a child, Mrs. Court would want the government to deny them (and the child) the most fundamental right to form a family. Not only does she want it, she publicly advocates for it and frequently mentions her tennis championships to increase her credibility.

She routinely denigrates same sex partnerships (married or not) as "selfish" and a mechanism to create more gay and lesbian people. She claims that children of same-sex parents are ashamed of their parents.

She routinely denigrates gays and lesbians as recruiting children to be gay and lesbian.

She routinely says that gays and lesbians should not express public affection for one another.

She routinely says that homosexuality is an "abomination."

She routinely says that homosexuality should never be mentioned in schools, i.e., the schools should pretend it does not exist.

She stridently but unsuccessfully opposed legislation that ultimately legalized homosexual relations among 16-20 year old persons in Western Australia. Prior law - the law that she wanted to remain in force - made it a 5-year prison term.

How any gay or lesbian person could respect hate speech AND hate advocacy like this is beyond my comprehension. I recommend that you review our world's sad history for many instances of where silence in the face of oppression, under the assumption that nothing bad would happen or that the hate mongers would eventually give up or that haters could be appeased, eventually lead to horrifically unimaginable consequences. History CAN repeat itself if people do not speak up. This forum is a perfectly acceptable mechanism for discussing a tennis champion who uses her fame to promote a hate-filled ideology, regardless of how many times she professes love for those she wants to oppress in so many fundamental and inhumane ways.

alfajeffster
Oct 16th, 2011, 10:34 AM
Remember though, you could get a certain "literature" from the mail. Many times unprovoked like junk mail then. You had folks who got busted for passing that. But for the most part, it was in private rooms and screenings of offices, colleges, and bars. It had a military attitude concerning secrecy.

I wouldn't know, believe it or not, I wasn't alive yet when 'I Love Lucy' debuted! That was when my dad was playing pro baseball. He was just married to his first wife (which didn't last), and doing great- soon to join the Washington Senators. He told me once that tennis was a "sport for sissies" when he was growing up, and yes, they did go to the less than savory parts of town when he was a kid to make fun of the negroes playing stick-ball baseball. Things were much different. Look how far we've come. Margaret Smith grew up in that old-school world of 50s Australia. Incidentally, he was offered a good job and free travel for his family to move to Australia back then. Apparently after WWII, they were keen to have Americans come down under and settle. And to think, I could've been an Aussie had he made that decision!:lol:

austinrunner
Oct 16th, 2011, 02:11 PM
I don't think that is an appropriate thread in a Tennis Forum.

It should be discussed in one of the Non-Tennis threads, or on a religious or Gay and Lesbian forum. Otherwise we could start up threads on what people think about a player who aborts a child to further their tennis career and so on. Who wants to go down that sort of dark and judgemental path??? These things have nothing directly to do with the game of tennis. I am hoping they are banned from these tennis forums.

A few weeks ago, you started and continued a thread in this tennis forum discussing Mrs. Court's recent e-mail to you about homosexuality. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:7fF505U_zfwJ:www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php%3Fp%3D20132364+tennisvideos+AND+%22 margaret+court%22+AND+gay+site:www.tennisforum.com&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&lr=lang_sw%7Clang_en&client=firefox-a Correct me if I'm wrong, but your objective was to rehabilitate her image as a gay and lesbian oppressor. The whole "don't worry about Mrs. Court's harsh condemnatory language and campaigns. She actually loves all of you." You thought the subject was OK for a tennis forum until you didn't get the responses you wanted. Then, the subject was off-limits. Strange....

austinrunner
Oct 17th, 2011, 01:22 AM
You can continue to play the role of victim of discrimination, hatred, intolerance and ignorance by fighting back with the same prejudices. This is how wars begin ... hate begets hate and it is a never ending spiral.

Or you can choose to BE the change you want to see (in the words of Ghandi) and take the higher road. By attempting to love, forgive, allow, and accept all - including those who hate or discriminate against you. This is how you change the world.

I believe we do more for gay and lesbian rights by being the BEST we can be in our day to day lives. That is, showing respect to others in our daily interactions at work or at play or in the family. By showering others with love and laughter. By shining our light on each part of the world we touch. But the great thing about this is that not only are we uplifting others, we are also uplifting ourselves to be the best we can be and thereby attracting others of a similar nature into our lives and attracting a better future for ourselves. The universal law of attraction is at play in both examples above. Hate attracts more hate. Prejudice attracts more prejudice. Love attracts more love and uplifts all who are touched by it. And IMO, this is how we can best see the changes in gay and lesbian tolerance and acceptance throughout the world. And this is what is happening and has been happening for the past 40 or so years that I have witnessed. Slowly but surely the tide is turning .. and as the older generations with set ideas transition to the other side, and new beings come to play in this magical world of ours, they bring new thoughts and ideas - along with it more tolerance of all. You can read all about that in that report you mentioned - the younger generations are more accepting. It is the way of the world.

Yes, when I see a player being attacked (their records being disparaged or their image tarnished) I do attempt to defend them. That is in my nature. I can't help that as I don't believe anyone should be attacked - everyone is entitled to live their truth no matter what that is.

You can certainly live your life with your head in the sand, but don't expect everyone else to do the same.

Your assertion that the young necessarily bring more tolerance and acceptance to the world is plain wrong. An example, among countless others, is David Bahati. Mrs. Court and her allies are teaching the young to use the same hate speech and hate advocacy that they have engaged in for decades, not only in Australia but around the world. History has proven that the world does not necessarily improve with time, that human rights are not necessarily respected more as the generations turn over. Constant vigilance is required to ensure that people are safe and not persecuted or even executed for being who they are. When human rights do improve, it's because of hard work, not because of appeasement. You regrettably conflate vigorous defense of human rights with playing the role of victim, etc. But that's OK in the long run because there will always be courageous people willing to defend and promote your rights while you sit on the sidelines, benefitting from their work.

irma
Oct 17th, 2011, 04:53 AM
You can certainly live your life with your head in the sand, but don't expect everyone else to do the same.

Your assertion that the young necessarily bring more tolerance and acceptance to the world is plain wrong. An example, among countless others, is David Bahati. Mrs. Court and her allies are teaching the young to use the same hate speech and hate advocacy that they have engaged in for decades, not only in Australia but around the world. History has proven that the world does not necessarily improve with time, that human rights are not necessarily respected more as the generations turn over. Constant vigilance is required to ensure that people are safe and not persecuted or even executed for being who they are. When human rights do improve, it's because of hard work, not because of appeasement. You regrettably conflate vigorous defense of human rights with playing the role of victim, etc. But that's OK in the long run because there will always be courageous people willing to defend and promote your rights while you sit on the sidelines, benefitting from their work.

It´s true. the hate for people who are gay has gotten bigger in my country, the hate for certain religions too though. my country used to be known for tolerance, wel that is pretty much over.

alfajeffster
Oct 17th, 2011, 10:20 AM
Let me preface this by saying this is just me, so hopefully no one will get their panties in a bunch. I lived in San Francisco for 4 years, and you can't get more accepting or experience complete gay freedom than that (well, maybe Sydney or Amsterdam or Key West, but you get my point). I was very happy there with my lifestyle and free to have any kind of friend, gay or straight, and it was never a problem. Where I do think gay activists make a mistake and hurt the cause is when they shove their beliefs in gay marriage by vulgar and hurtful demonstrations at churches, and basically thrusting the gayness in people's faces, many times inviting violent reactions. I was in the military for 6 years, and everyone knew I was gay, but you just didn't talk about it- the military is about doing your duty alongside every kind of person there is- not organizing a gay parade on the ship or passing out same-sex marriage fliers. Besides, if they had wanted to keep gays out of the military, all they would have had to do is show them the uniform (I can't wear THAT)! We have come a very long way since the days of police throwing you in the paddy wagon for being seen coming out of certain bars, but it's not that long ago. Tolerance takes time, and in some places and with some people it never comes at all. I find it a tragedy when someone is dragged out of a bar, tied to a fence, and beaten to death in Wyoming. I may garner the wrath of some people, but I would bet he made the mistake of hitting on straight guys. Likewise, charging into a catholic church and hurling blood at nuns and priests is a negative in my book. Surely there is a way to quietly further the acceptance of the gay lifestyle with dignity. Let Margaret Court have her opinions. I'm sure most people find her beliefs a little rigid and intolerant, but Perth isn't a gay mecca, it's the most isolated big city in the world, and if she decides to take her beliefs on the road campaigning against homosexuality (there is no such person IMO), she's in for a very rude awakening and could end up with more than an Anita Bryant pie in her face. To me, though, it's just as ridiculous to go to Australia and enlist PETA to try and ban sheep culling. I'll stop now.

austinrunner
Oct 19th, 2011, 10:39 AM
Do you think that the civil rights protestors of the 20th century "invited" violence? Or that African-Americans "invited" violence by just being black? Do you think that Martin Luther King would have been silent in the face of an active campaign by Mrs. Court or anyone like her to deny basic, fundamental human rights? Or even Gandhi? Do you think that gay pride parades should never take place? Or that they should be toned down to protect the sensibilities of those who believe that gays should have no rights? Just how silent do you want the GLBT community to be? Should they wait until every person born in the 1940s or earlier are dead? Do you believe that any gay rights legislation would have passed in Western Australia in 2002 if the GLBT community had been silent in the face of Mrs. Court's strident homophobia?

trivfun
Oct 19th, 2011, 04:32 PM
Do you think that the civil rights protestors of the 20th century "invited" violence? Or that African-Americans "invited" violence by just being black? Do you think that Martin Luther King would have been silent in the face of an active campaign by Mrs. Court or anyone like her to deny basic, fundamental human rights? Or even Gandhi? Do you think that gay pride parades should never take place? Or that they should be toned down to protect the sensibilities of those who believe that gays should have no rights? Just how silent do you want the GLBT community to be? Should they wait until every person born in the 1940s or earlier are dead? Do you believe that any gay rights legislation would have passed in Western Australia in 2002 if the GLBT community had been silent in the face of Mrs. Court's strident homophobia?

I was just at the King Center in Atlanta. The person who ran the March in Washington was gay, Baird Rustin. Coretta Scott King was a great supporter of gay rights.

Philbo
Oct 20th, 2011, 08:27 AM
I definitely agree that constant vigilance is whats required to maintain the progress the GLBT community has made and that if we all grow too lax, the right wing religous fringe will continue to lobby all and sundry to take back whatever equal rights we've obtained.

And if topics like this shouldnt be allowed on a 'tennis' messageboard, we'd also have to eliminate the entire Non Tennis section. Mods would need to remove any threads that discuss anythng outside of a players game, performance or results which would make for a fairly boring place to visit imo.

alfajeffster
Oct 20th, 2011, 10:18 AM
I definitely agree that constant vigilance is whats required to maintain the progress the GLBT community has made and that if we all grow too lax, the right wing religous fringe will continue to lobby all and sundry to take back whatever equal rights we've obtained...

I totally agree, it's paramount to continue the fight in every venue, but in a civil manner. When close-minded people see fringe gay activists bust into a church hurling paint that looks like blood at parish members, it tends to counter-act any desire to sit down and actually discuss the issues and adequate representation of the need for equal rights. It can be done in a civil manner. Rev. Court's poisonous message is furthered by her civil and peaceful delivery in the face of loud, incendiary opposition.

austinrunner
Oct 20th, 2011, 10:35 AM
When close-minded people see fringe gay activists bust into a church hurling paint that looks like blood at parish members, it tends to counter-act any desire to sit down and actually discuss the issues and adequate representation of the need for equal rights.

Excuse me, but how many times has that happened? And what rational person would believe that a jerk like that represents the GLBT community as a whole? If someone is looking for an excuse not to cooperate with the GLBT community, he'll surely find it, regardless of how civil 99.99% of the community is.

I'm still waiting for your response to this:

Do you think that the civil rights protestors of the 20th century "invited" violence? Or that African-Americans "invited" violence by just being black? Do you think that Martin Luther King would have been silent in the face of an active campaign by Mrs. Court or anyone like her to deny basic, fundamental human rights? Or even Gandhi? Do you think that gay pride parades should never take place? Or that they should be toned down to protect the sensibilities of those who believe that gays should have no rights? Just how silent do you want the GLBT community to be? Should they wait until every person born in the 1940s or earlier are dead? Do you believe that any gay rights legislation would have passed in Western Australia in 2002 if the GLBT community had been silent in the face of Mrs. Court's strident homophobia?

Philbo
Oct 20th, 2011, 11:39 AM
I totally agree, it's paramount to continue the fight in every venue, but in a civil manner. When close-minded people see fringe gay activists bust into a church hurling paint that looks like blood at parish members, it tends to counter-act any desire to sit down and actually discuss the issues and adequate representation of the need for equal rights. It can be done in a civil manner. Rev. Court's poisonous message is furthered by her civil and peaceful delivery in the face of loud, incendiary opposition.

I think theres a time and a place for all sorts of protest. For example, where would we be today if the Stonewall rioters hadnt risen up? There is a time for peaceful, passive protest and occasionally something more heavy is needed to attract attention. You maybe right about your example doing more harm than good, but Id certainly support that same protester throwing blood at a parish of West Boro Baptist church :)

alfajeffster
Oct 22nd, 2011, 09:55 PM
Well, at the risk of being excommunicated from Margaret Court's social / political circles, I bought a gay rainbow bumper strip for my new car about a week ago. Unfortunately, am still waiting for delivery. It'll look good in the dark rear window of an all-black Volvo C30, don't you think?

austinrunner
Oct 23rd, 2011, 12:56 PM
I'm shocked that an honorably discharged, gay military veteran with superlative fashion sense would buy a black Volvo C30. Adding the rainbow sticker is like putting lipstick on a pig. YMMV.

alfajeffster
Oct 23rd, 2011, 04:14 PM
I'm shocked that an honorably discharged, gay military veteran with superlative fashion sense would buy a black Volvo C30. Adding the rainbow sticker is like putting lipstick on a pig. YMMV.

YMMV, is that a new Volvo concept car I haven't heard of yet? And what makes you think I'm not a slob with no fashion sense at all? I'm really not sure where that came from, but if you must know, I look about as ridiculous in lipstick as Martina Navratilova does wearing any kind of makeup.:lol:

alfajeffster
Dec 13th, 2011, 11:08 AM
You know, I was always one to ignore things like this, but it's just not possible any more. I used to think the comments came from responding to constant goading from activists and the media, but it's starting to look like a concerted effort-

http://www.queerty.com/tennis-legend-margaret-court-same-sex-marriage-is-unhealthy-unnatural-20111209/

It's sad.

Rollo
Dec 13th, 2011, 02:03 PM
Hope you don't mind my merging this Jeff:)

Well, while I throughly disagree with Court I repeat what I wrote in another post: I defend her right to say what she wants, and calls to rename Court Arena just don't sit right with me.

Having said that she's open to any criticism she gets.

it's starting to look like a concerted effort-


Is this connected to some sort of parliamentary vote that will take place soon in Australia?

alfajeffster
Dec 13th, 2011, 07:43 PM
I really haven't been following politics in Oz, so don't know.

justineheninfan
Dec 14th, 2011, 04:36 AM
But God made Adam and Eve and male and female to multiply the Earth.

This one made me laugh most of all. The reason being the Earth is becoming far overpopulated. If anything the World needs to cut back on the baby making for awhile so the population doesnt spiral totally out of control.

austinrunner
Dec 14th, 2011, 04:44 AM
Rollo, who has said that Mrs. Court should not have free (hate) speech rights?

For those who might be a bit lazy, here are the quotations of Mrs. Court from http://www.queerty.com/tennis-legend-margaret-court-same-sex-marriage-is-unhealthy-unnatural-20111209:Politically correct education has masterfully escorted homosexuality out from behind closed doors, into the community openly and now is aggressively demanding marriage rights that are not theirs to take. They [families headed by opposite-sex couples] are not perfect, often dysfunctional and despite the fact the role models may be distorted and even severely flawed, there is no reason to put forward alternative, unhealthy, unnatural unions [same-sex couples] as some form of substitute. No amount of legislation or political point-scoring can ever take out of the human heart the knowledge that in the beginning God created them male and female and provided each with a unique sexual function to bring forth new life.
So, marriage is all about sex? I wonder how often she "does it" now that she's clearly beyond her life creating years.

Mrs. Court said the above during an interview with the West Australian newspaper in early December of this year (http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/12256170/legend-condemns-gay-marriage). Some more of her hate speech during that same interview:To dismantle this sole definition of marriage [as between a man and a woman] and try to legitimize what God calls abominable sexual practices that include sodomy reveals our ignorance as to the ills that come when society is forced to accept law that violates their very own God-given nature of what is right and what is wrong. The fact that the homosexual cry is, "We can't help it as we were born this way," as the cause behind their own personal choice is cause for concern. Every action begins with a thought. There is a choice to be made.
In response, Billie Jean King said:I respectfully disagree with Margaret’s position on gay marriage. We have to commit to eliminating homophobia because everyone is entitled to the same rights, opportunities and protection. The more we talk openly about issues like gay marriage, the more we learn about each other. It is a blessing the people of Australia can live freely and express their own opinions because we need open dialogue to help us move forward. Martina Navratilova said:Seems to me a lot of people have evolved as has the Bible, [for example regarding] slavery. Unfortunately, Margaret Court has not. Her myopic view is truly frightening as well as damaging to the thousands of children already living in same gender families. I have tried to talk to Margaret, but to say she’s completely close-minded on the issue is an understatement. Here is hoping Australia will be on the right side of history and human rights, and become yet another democracy granting equal rights to all her citizens.Rennae Stubbs said:As a young Australian tennis player, I aspired to be like Margaret Court. This is why it has been very difficult to understand her words of hate directed towards homosexuals. It is unfortunate that someone with her stature has chosen to propagate discrimination and I disagree with her comments wholeheartedly. What I love about Australia, [is] we have the freedom to voice our own opinions albeit negative or positive. I truly believe Australia will continue to move forward to eliminate discrimination, bullying and hate, no matter who is perpetuating it.
What's going on politically in Australia is explained here: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-12-03/labor-votes-for-conscience-vote-on-same-sex-marriage/3710828

Sumarokov-Elston
Dec 14th, 2011, 04:09 PM
So, marriage is all about sex? I wonder how often she "does it" now that she's clearly beyond her life creating years.

LOL! Court seems to have an obsession with something that is not really that big a deal in the grand order of things. I know that she was born a left-hander and was made to play with her right-hand. I have this bizarre hypothesis that this is somehow connected to her completely irrational obsession with gay marriage. We know very little about the workings of the brain and childhood traumas and what percentage of us is really homosexual/heterosexual. I honestly think a thousand years from now, when we understand these things a little bit better, it might be interesting to know the reason for Rev Madge's apparent obsession with homosexuality. Now that is certainly unnatural!

After all, it is not only gay marriage that is outside the box - what about the menage a trois, incest, abusive marriages.... Surely God would have spoken out about them first? She is also putting words in God's mouth, quoting Him as saying things that He simply did not say. Now, I am no minister, but I believe there is a very nasty punishment for misquoting God. This punishment is clearly illustrated on the wall of the Sistine Chapel in Rome, but then Margaret could not go there, because it was painted by Michelangelo, who had several gay marriages (just like she would have to avoid the Last Supper in Milan, as it was painted by another man with a penchant for "unhealthy, unnatural unions").

Pat Bateman
Dec 15th, 2011, 07:47 AM
Hope you don't mind my merging this Jeff:)

Well, while I throughly disagree with Court I repeat what I wrote in another post: I defend her right to say what she wants, and calls to rename Court Arena just don't sit right with me.

Having said that she's open to any criticism she gets.



Is this connected to some sort of parliamentary vote that will take place soon in Australia?

Yes, the Australian Labor Party (the ruling party in Federal government) are going to have a 'conscience vote' in parliament about legalizing same sex marriage. Federal Finance Minister Penny Wong is openly lesbian and has just had a baby with her female partner. The leader of the Green Party, Bob Brown, is also openly gay. It's unclear at this point if the bill will have enough parliamentary support to become law.

As you can imagine, this is a very hot topic in this country right now, which is why religious fanatics like MC are slithering out of the woodwork.

And this isn't the U.S.A, mate - Australians don't have the 'right' to spout hate speech. There are laws here against vilifying people based on their race and sexual orientation etc.

GeeTee
Dec 15th, 2011, 08:49 AM
As you can imagine, this is a very hot topic in this country right now, which is why religious fanatics like MC are slithering out of the woodwork.
Well.... I doubt that Marg is doing any slithering.

The topic might be 'hot' at the moment, but - guess what?? Journalism fanatics are trying to contact people - eg Marg - that have said something AGAINST gay marriage. And then they interview them and then they publish it.. again AND again....

Should Journalists (whether wrong OR right) stop reporting?

I find it a bit (more than a bit) ironic - that some ppl only seem to come into BFTP to have a go at Marg.

I don't really care what Marg Court or BJK or Martina (either one) or Helen Wills or (whoever) thinks about nuclear physics or gay marriage or environmental issues. The only thing I'm interested in is their performance and scores on the tennis court.

austinrunner
Dec 15th, 2011, 11:05 AM
If you don't care, why are you reading this thread? What's that line? Something like, "Me thinks thou doth protest too much."

Mrs. Court doesn't have to grant all requests for interviews that come her way. Blaming the press for her hate speech is ridiculous.

Yes, the Australian Labor Party (the ruling party in Federal government) are going to have a 'conscience vote' in parliament about legalizing same sex marriage.

Should the Conservative Party not go along with a conscience vote for its members, the legislation has no chance.

roland500
Dec 15th, 2011, 05:35 PM
Free speech and freedom of religion...she lives in a free country & can say this, as it is her religious belief. Give her credit for at least stating what she believes, out loud. She isn't covering it up, mincing words, or trying to be 'PC' to get along in her sport or business affairs.

So what? If this is her faith, so be it. You can talk her down, around her, to her, through her, about her....loudly & w/star figures like Martina, or BJK, or Federer or anyone else. She's outnumbered. She knows it. She says it anyway.

She is also pro-life, anti-divorce, etc. Again, that's her viewpoint based on her faith, and she stands by it. OK.
She ain't hiding it. The Pope is pretty much on the same page as her, as is the Mormon Church, Assembly of God, Seventh Day Adventists, etc.




Fact is that her deeply held Christian beliefs are longstanding, she didn't just start the conversation, she's been consistent with it.
Fact is many Christians believe as she does. Hate the sin, love the sinner. Period. OK.

If the laws in her nation are otherwise, so be it - that's what she's living with. I disagree with this or that, & I live w/it here in my home nation, or in other nations I visit. She speaks out on this. OK, again, at least she's honest & consistent. She's not pretending for PC sake.

Moreover, I'd be far more concerned about the fastest growing religion in the world, & the view on homosexuality held by Islam. Forbidden, mortal sin, illegal, penalty of death in several modern nations. You get oil & gas, & put money in the pockets of nations that, punish homosexuality w/death.

Which is more dangerous? A very old former tennis pro who is a pastor, & has a small audience....or nations that make billions on our dollars, and punish people for being gay by hanging them or shooting them or stoning them to death.

A religion with people who are very famous, very wealthy, very influential, who silently adhere to the belief homosexuality is a forbidden lifestyle & is indeed ok to be punished for....& say zippo about it. They'll smile at you, shake your hand, agree w/you publicly, yet support the ideas of say, Iran or Saudi Arabia or elsewhere...on gays & lesbians.

GeeTee
Dec 15th, 2011, 05:37 PM
If you don't care, why are you reading this thread
I come here to see how much vitriol is coming from the same old people.

austinrunner
Dec 15th, 2011, 10:25 PM
Give her credit for at least stating what she believes, out loud. She isn't covering it up, mincing words, or trying to be 'PC' to get along in her sport or business affairs.

Hitler didn't either. Neither is that kook in Uganda who wants its parliament to enact the death penalty for gays. Nor are the leaders of roughly 25 African nations who during the last 6 years have publicly rejected pleas from numerous countries and international organizations to legalize same-sex relationships. Many of those countries have extraordinary prison sentences just for being gay.

Having the courage to promote hate and discrimination in the news media is not a virtue. Mrs. Court goes beyond just talking. She sends missionaries with her hate values to African countries. (Similar missionaries have caused the renewal in violence against gays in Uganda.) She lobbies to prevent and overturn progressive legislation in Western Australia and the commonwealth of Australia. She is a political figure who no one would care about had she not won so many tennis titles. She uses her fame to promote her hate agenda.

Which is more dangerous? A very old former tennis pro who is a pastor, & has a small audience....or nations that make billions on our dollars, and punish people for being gay by hanging them or shooting them or stoning them to death.

The old straw man argument. Fortunately, we are not limited to opposing just one of them.

daze11
Jan 26th, 2012, 08:21 PM
While many were clamoring for a non-gay woman to join the chorus of rebuttals to margaret -- as BJK, Martina, & Renee Stubbs had done -- you can leave it to Australian's own Olivia Newton-John to add her voice in support of gay marriage rights in OZ:
http://www.news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8407396/newton-john-supports-gay-marriage

Pat Bateman
Jan 27th, 2012, 06:48 AM
While many were clamoring for a non-gay woman to join the chorus of rebuttals to margaret -- as BJK, Martina, & Renee Stubbs had done -- you can leave it to Australian's own Olivia Newton-John to add her voice in support of gay marriage rights in OZ:
http://www.news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8407396/newton-john-supports-gay-marriage

ONJ is a non-gay woman? :lol:
That's not what I've heard.

GeeTee
Jan 27th, 2012, 09:15 PM
It's obvious that ONJ would support gay men who want to marry. After all, she co-starred with one who has... ;)

Pat Bateman
Jan 28th, 2012, 04:41 AM
It's obvious that ONJ would support gay men who want to marry. After all, she co-starred with one who has... ;)

Why yes, I mean if Kelly Preston can marry a gay man, why can't everybody?:p

Andy T
Jan 28th, 2012, 11:38 AM
Hitler didn't either. Neither is that kook in Uganda who wants its parliament to enact the death penalty for gays. Nor are the leaders of roughly 25 African nations who during the last 6 years have publicly rejected pleas from numerous countries and international organizations to legalize same-sex relationships. Many of those countries have extraordinary prison sentences just for being gay.

Having the courage to promote hate and discrimination in the news media is not a virtue. Mrs. Court goes beyond just talking. She sends missionaries with her hate values to African countries. (Similar missionaries have caused the renewal in violence against gays in Uganda.) She lobbies to prevent and overturn progressive legislation in Western Australia and the commonwealth of Australia. She is a political figure who no one would care about had she not won so many tennis titles. She uses her fame to promote her hate agenda.



The old straw man argument. Fortunately, we are not limited to opposing just one of them.
Austinrunner, whilst I share your strong disapproval of Court's views, I really think that citing Hitler in this context is going way over the line. Court is campaigning against a law to enable gay marriage because she erroneously clings to the belief that "marriage" is an institution that is subject to the laws/beliefs of the church when it is, in reality, a secular legal contract. Her views are essentially irrelevant, or, as Navratilova said, "outdated". Court is not advocating persecution, incarceration or execution and, I imagine, finds the actions of Hitler and other tyrants as morally repugnant as we do. You are right to point out that "integrity" is morally neutral and that we need to fight against religious bigotry in all its forms but that can be done in measured language.

austinrunner
Jan 28th, 2012, 10:45 PM
Tell that to the African nations that are receiving Mrs. Court's missionaries. See, for example, what's happening in Uganda and Nigeria.

Mrs. Court's hate speech is not limited to same sex marriage. It covers the whole gamut, including adoption.

Pity that you didn't read this entire thread (or failed to understand it). And before your next post, maybe you should bone up some on human rights issues, which is my field of specialization.

Helen Lawson
Jan 28th, 2012, 10:53 PM
I always thought ONJ looked kind of bunchy later in life, and at least the first husband was a dancer on Xanadu (who later gained fame for being the male lead in "My Tutor," an 80s Cinemax softcore classic). He also looks just like 80s gay porn star Tom Steele. The last I read, he was living "off the grid."

Helen Lawson
Jan 28th, 2012, 11:08 PM
Actually, on topic. Margaret Court made the cover of the one Ft Lauderdale gay news rag that isn't all massage and escorting ads. She's not as unknown in the world as some may think.

austinrunner
Jan 29th, 2012, 12:10 AM
Priority is to Protect Marriage, by Margaret Court, 25 January 2012, Herald Sun, http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/priority-is-to-protect-marriage/story-e6frfhqf-1226252853390WE live in a blessed nation but Australia is on a steep moral decline.

Everywhere you look we are making excuses for a sliding lifestyle and more people are blind to it than ever before.

* * * *
We are a country with a moral fabric and families and marriage are at its core.
But increasingly our kids are being taught that anything goes.

* * * *
We all have a conscience and so many people get trapped in the pattern of saying something is right when deep down they know it isn't.

It's that attitude that can harden hearts. People suddenly justify the immoralities around them. ... Minorities are now making it harder for the majority. They are increasingly taking everything that is good in society and pushing it to the side.

* * * *
Let me be clear. I believe that a person's sexuality is a choice. In the Bible it said that homosexuality is among sins that are works of the flesh. It is not something you are born with. My concern is that we are advocating to young people that it is OK to have these feelings. But I truly believe if you are told you are gay from a young age, soon enough it will start to impact your life and you will live it. If somebody is told they are gay they often start to believe it.

We are living in a society that takes the easy way out. But we have to work at life and make things better. ... I became the first Australian woman to win Wimbledon because I trained hard and worked towards it.

Children need a mother and a father - stability from a male and a female - and I think we are losing sight of this.

* * * *
By refusing Him, women no longer know how to be women and men no longer know how to be men. We have lost our way and have been convinced by the secular view that it's all OK.

* * * *
God told man to be united with his wife and to multiply on earth.

I had fame and success and a great husband but I always knew something was missing in my life.

* * * *
Even then I didn't understand the power of the Bible, his word. If I knew then what I knew now I could have won six Wimbledons, not three.

* * * *
A nun at my primary school once gave me the cane and it was one of the best lessons of my life. ... She gave me a grounding for the future, for which I remain grateful.

Helen Lawson
Jan 29th, 2012, 01:49 AM
^^^ WTF? Who is told they are gay growing up?

Latent S&M homosexual fantasies about BJK and a cane is the only explanation for the latest statements. Or BJK in a nun outfit with a cane.

Helen Lawson
Jan 29th, 2012, 01:53 AM
I guess she's blown a hole in the dry v. wet grass explanation for her relatively few Wimbledon titles.

Sam L
Jan 29th, 2012, 02:20 AM
Priority is to Protect Marriage, by Margaret Court, 25 January 2012, Herald Sun, http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/priority-is-to-protect-marriage/story-e6frfhqf-1226252853390WE live in a blessed nation but Australia is on a steep moral decline.

Everywhere you look we are making excuses for a sliding lifestyle and more people are blind to it than ever before.

* * * *
We are a country with a moral fabric and families and marriage are at its core.
But increasingly our kids are being taught that anything goes.

* * * *
We all have a conscience and so many people get trapped in the pattern of saying something is right when deep down they know it isn't.

It's that attitude that can harden hearts. People suddenly justify the immoralities around them. ... Minorities are now making it harder for the majority. They are increasingly taking everything that is good in society and pushing it to the side.

* * * *
Let me be clear. I believe that a person's sexuality is a choice. In the Bible it said that homosexuality is among sins that are works of the flesh. It is not something you are born with. My concern is that we are advocating to young people that it is OK to have these feelings. But I truly believe if you are told you are gay from a young age, soon enough it will start to impact your life and you will live it. If somebody is told they are gay they often start to believe it.

We are living in a society that takes the easy way out. But we have to work at life and make things better. ... I became the first Australian woman to win Wimbledon because I trained hard and worked towards it.

Children need a mother and a father - stability from a male and a female - and I think we are losing sight of this.

* * * *
By refusing Him, women no longer know how to be women and men no longer know how to be men. We have lost our way and have been convinced by the secular view that it's all OK.

* * * *
God told man to be united with his wife and to multiply on earth.

I had fame and success and a great husband but I always knew something was missing in my life.

* * * *
Even then I didn't understand the power of the Bible, his word. If I knew then what I knew now I could have won six Wimbledons, not three.

* * * *
A nun at my primary school once gave me the cane and it was one of the best lessons of my life. ... She gave me a grounding for the future, for which I remain grateful.



This is a mess. :lol: :help:

newmark401
Jan 29th, 2012, 11:13 AM
[I] A nun at my primary school once gave me the cane and it was one of the best lessons of my life. ... She gave me a grounding for the future, for which I remain grateful.
[/INDENT]

Masochistic Madge? Apparently she's been wearing leather a lot lately...

Helen Lawson
Jan 29th, 2012, 11:30 AM
Masochistic Madge? Apparently she's been wearing leather a lot lately...

I did have a friend who had a lesbian porno movie with nuns. He said the nuns had roots and tattoos so it sort of took away from the nun fantasy.

Andy T
Jan 29th, 2012, 06:32 PM
Tell that to the African nations that are receiving Mrs. Court's missionaries. See, for example, what's happening in Uganda and Nigeria.

Mrs. Court's hate speech is not limited to same sex marriage. It covers the whole gamut, including adoption.

Pity that you didn't read this entire thread (or failed to understand it). And before your next post, maybe you should bone up some on human rights issues, which is my field of specialization.
I condemn Court's statements on gay/lesbian rights unreservedly. That is not the issue. I don't like your language or the resulting tone. However, if, after - or without - reflection, you want to continue in that way, you have that right.

Pat Bateman
Jan 29th, 2012, 10:47 PM
^^^ WTF? Who is told they are gay growing up?

Latent S&M homosexual fantasies about BJK and a cane is the only explanation for the latest statements. Or BJK in a nun outfit with a cane.

:worship::worship:

It's becoming increasingly clear that Marge has issues far, far beyond mere religious fanaticism.

I think you may be onto something, Helen.

Helen Lawson
Jan 30th, 2012, 12:41 AM
It also gives a new perspective on the '92 Wimbledon final. Monica was eating her butter pizza while Steffi was at mass getting closer to Jesus the day before the final.

alfajeffster
Jan 30th, 2012, 02:12 PM
It also gives a new perspective on the '92 Wimbledon final. Monica was eating her butter pizza while Steffi was at mass getting closer to Jesus the day before the final.

In all seriousness (I know- why?), I always felt that Margaret grew up with a complex about playing (and competing with) boys, being called a tom boy when she came from a strict catholic home, and always carried this guilt with her (which oddly enough, is very Jewish) about being so athletic and broad shouldered at a time when girls were supposed to stay in Home Economics class and learn how to be a good housewife. When this short, butch little bulldyke with a California marriage came along and had no such qualms and was very vocal about it, Margaret's guilt turned into quiet rage and disdain and she began with years of comments like "I've no wish to wear the pants" among many others. She once commented that all the girls in the locker room knew Billie Jean's "secretary" was really her traveling lesbian companion.

Oh, I don't know if I updated you Aunt Hel- I decided to do a B&B in the Castro next week instead of Florida. Everyone else in the Northeast is in Florida and the Bahamas- and I figure a week in a nice Edwardian B&B just half a block from the Castro sounded like the ticket. Besides, when I'm recharging the battery, children are like a monkey wrench in the theory for me. No kids in Castro!

Rollo
Jan 30th, 2012, 05:11 PM
Posted by Austinrunner Pity that you didn't read this entire thread (or failed to understand it). And before your next post, maybe you should bone up some on human rights issues, which is my field of specialization.

Be Nice AR:)

Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they failed to read the thread-or understand it.

Andy T may need to bone up on human rights. What he will never have to bone up on is human relations. I have read the thread, and I must confess that the deeper it gets the more sympathy I have with Mrs Court and her defenders. Not that I agree with her. I don't.

What bothers me is the tone. There is no admission of gray-when someone is comparing Mrs Court to Adolf Hitler my reaction is to laugh out loud and start to tune out the rest of the argument.

Mrs Court is not killing cats or dogs-let alone people. And while she is not enlightened about the issue at hand, neither are most people of her generation, or even my generation. That's a world away from stoning people to death or jailing them, which is what can happen other parts of the world.

Here in Maryland (the very liberal state I dwell in) barely %50 of the public supports gay marriage. Using your rhetoric this would make half the people here fascists.

I will end with one final thought. If Billie Jean King can still have dinner with Margaret Court and think it's silly to rename Margaret Court Arena over this issue then others might learn from her true display of tolerance.

Hats off to Billie Jean.

Rollo
Jan 30th, 2012, 05:24 PM
King respects Court, disagrees adamantly with comments


INDIAN WELLS, Calif. –Billie Jean King is adamantly opposed to Margaret Court's comments against gay marriage, but not to the player herself.

"I totally respect her opinion, but I don't agree with her at all. We have a rising problem with homophobia globally," King said in an exclusive interview with The Desert Sun. "This is about civil rights. It's about equality, having equal opportunities and rights. Everyone gets too wigged out on it. I guess because it's sexual, people get funny. But it's just about equal rights. That's all it is. And I don't know what they're trying to make it into. It's just equal rights."
King, a longtime proponent of equal rights and winner of the landmark Battle of the Sexes match in 1973 against Bobby Riggs (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Bobby+Riggs), was in Indian Wells (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Indian+Wells) as part of the Health Matters conference put on by former President Bill Clinton
and his foundation.

Last month Court spoke out against gay marriage, creating a swirl around Australia. It began to spill over into the Australian Open (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Events+and+Awards/Sports/Australian+Open+Tennis+Championships) that began this week. A Facebook campaign was started to encourage people to wear rainbow flags or ribbons at Margaret Court Arena, which is the third show court at the Australian Open.

"Politically correct education has masterfully escorted homosexuality out from behind closed doors, into the community openly and now is aggressively demanding marriage rights that is not theirs to take," Court said last month.
Court believes marriage should be between a man and a woman, and that "alternative, unhealthy, unnatural unions" should not be a substitute.
King, who played against Court in the 1960s and '70s, said she wasn't surprised by the comments by Court, who is a Pentecostal minister.
King said she has remained friends with Court, and they dine together every year at Wimbledon. But in their conversations, King knows Court's stances on issues such as gay marriage.

Although King disagrees with Court, she is happy that it has raised discussion and hopes it expands to include equal rights, as well as dealing with issues of acceptance. King feels the lack of acceptance has led to the cases of bullying, which is becoming a growing issue.

"Talk about it, get it out in the open. Just because you find something in the Bible? Well, I can find something else in the Bible. Judge not that ye be judged, so stop judging. Get your own act together, everyone deserve the same rights and that's it," King said. "To me, it should be a non-issue. Someday it will be, but we have to fight like crazy until it is. It goes along with bullying. The bullying and homophobia go hand in hand."

King said that she hopes that people who might disagree with the gay community getting equal rights will also take the time to see both sides of the issue to get perspective.

"But I would like for people to think about this in reverse? If we controlled the world and the straight people didn't have the rights, how would they feel?" King said. "How would they think? I don't think they'll come up with a good answer. What if overnight you're straight, and you're in the position we are. I always try to do that with every issue, but it's a no brainer if you reverse it what the right answer is."

After the first day of the Australian Open, 17-year-old Brit Laura Robson wore a rainbow scrunchie on her pony tail. Robson lost in the first round but garnered a lot of attention.

Robson said wearing the hairband wasn't a protest, but that "I believe in equal rights for everyone, that's why I wore it."

King didn't hear about Robson's hairband until after her panel Tuesday at the Health Matters conference.

"No way, she did? Laura? I would have never believed that," King said. "She said it was about equality. Bingo that's exactly what it is."

King does hope more people will wear rainbow flags or ribbons during the Australian Open to show support.

The fervor over Court's statement led to at least one suggestion that Court's name be removed from the No. 3 show court.

"No, no, no, get rid of her for that? Because you don't agree with her? Are you kidding? Just because you don't agree with someone? Please. She deserves it. She's a great player," King said.

In fact, King said she was more upset that the main stadium or at least the No. 2 stadium weren't named after Court, who won 24 Grand Slam singles titles, and 63 when you include doubles and mixed doubles titles.
The main court is Rod Laver Arena, named after the only player complete tennis' Grand Slam twice.

"I thought the center court should be Laver and her name together. They're the two greatest champions in our game, and she had more Slams," King said. "For her to have Court 3 is terrible. I was furious. I went to the heads of Australia, I told them I don't agree with this. You can't do this, you can't give her court 3, she deserves much better than this. That's a disgrace to women. She won 63 Grand Slam titles, how could you ever give her court 3. It was diabolical."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/tennis/story/2012-01-17/billie-jean-king-talks-about-margaret-court-and-comments-about-gay-marriage/52623894/1?csp=34sports&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+UsatodaycomSports-TopStories+%28Sports+-+Top+Stories%29

alfajeffster
Jan 30th, 2012, 07:07 PM
Margaret herself gave a good account (albiet her side) of her run-in with the Australian Lawn Tennis Association at the beginning of her career, as well as the well-publicized falling out she had with Nell Hopman over touring with the other girls under Hopman's tutelage and control. She was pretty much blacklisted as a trouble-maker, and I don't think Tennis Australia has ever really forgotten that, especially since she received money to travel from a private donor/admirer, and went on tour, winning nearly everything in sight, outside of contact with the Australian team.

Pat Bateman
Jan 30th, 2012, 10:07 PM
Margaret herself gave a good account (albiet her side) of her run-in with the Australian Lawn Tennis Association at the beginning of her career, as well as the well-publicized falling out she had with Nell Hopman over touring with the other girls under Hopman's tutelage and control. She was pretty much blacklisted as a trouble-maker, and I don't think Tennis Australia has ever really forgotten that, especially since she received money to travel from a private donor/admirer, and went on tour, winning nearly everything in sight, outside of contact with the Australian team.

I'm sorry, but I think this is patent nonsense. The people you speak of are long dead or otherwise no longer associated with the running of tennis in this country.

alfajeffster
Jan 30th, 2012, 10:18 PM
I'm sorry, but I think this is patent nonsense. The people you speak of are long dead or otherwise no longer associated with the running of tennis in this country.

A fair assessment, and point taken. I'm sure there are people in Tennis Australia who go back a fair bit, and the story about Margaret Smith still rated enough to warrant a detailed explanation in Court's 1973 autobiography. That, plus she was notoriously cold and aloof to the other Aussie players (save Goolie). Nevertheless, you're probably right. I admit it might be a little stretch.

Pat Bateman
Jan 30th, 2012, 10:22 PM
Be Nice AR:)

Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they failed to read the thread-or understand it.

Andy T may need to bone up on human rights. What he will never have to bone up on is human relations. I have read the thread, and I must confess that the deeper it gets the more sympathy I have with Mrs Court and her defenders. Not that I agree with her. I don't.

What bothers me is the tone. There is no admission of gray-when someone is comparing Mrs Court to Adolf Hitler my reaction is to laugh out loud and start to tune out the rest of the argument.

Mrs Court is not killing cats or dogs-let alone people. And while she is not enlightened about the issue at hand, neither are most people of her generation, or even my generation. That's a world away from stoning people to death or jailing them, which is what can happen other parts of the world.

Here in Maryland (the very liberal state I dwell in) barely %50 of the public supports gay marriage. Using your rhetoric this would make half the people here fascists.

I will end with one final thought. If Billie Jean King can still have dinner with Margaret Court and think it's silly to rename Margaret Court Arena over this issue then others might learn from her true display of tolerance.

Hats off to Billie Jean.

I have to respectfully disagree with you, Rollo. I find the 'She's only a silly old codger' argument rather facetious.

Here is an article that addresses this much better than I could:
http://benpobjie.blogspot.com/2012/01/thinking-bit-more.html

I'm with Martina on this one, MC's views are frightening and dangerous. Her actions are destructive to gay community. Her church runs programs that attempt to force people to be heterosexual. This is how she makes her living. It is well-documented how damaging these kinds of programs are to the individuals concerned.

Helen Lawson
Jan 31st, 2012, 01:08 AM
In all seriousness (I know- why?), I always felt that Margaret grew up with a complex about playing (and competing with) boys, being called a tom boy when she came from a strict catholic home, and always carried this guilt with her (which oddly enough, is very Jewish) about being so athletic and broad shouldered at a time when girls were supposed to stay in Home Economics class and learn how to be a good housewife. When this short, butch little bulldyke with a California marriage came along and had no such qualms and was very vocal about it, Margaret's guilt turned into quiet rage and disdain and she began with years of comments like "I've no wish to wear the pants" among many others. She once commented that all the girls in the locker room knew Billie Jean's "secretary" was really her traveling lesbian companion.

Oh, I don't know if I updated you Aunt Hel- I decided to do a B&B in the Castro next week instead of Florida. Everyone else in the Northeast is in Florida and the Bahamas- and I figure a week in a nice Edwardian B&B just half a block from the Castro sounded like the ticket. Besides, when I'm recharging the battery, children are like a monkey wrench in the theory for me. No kids in Castro!

There may be some truth to that, I don't know the dynamics much with the old timers!

Have fun in the Castro and let me know how it goes. I heard there were actually a lot of children are in the Castro these days, it's going straight. I hope I misheard.

austinrunner
Jan 31st, 2012, 04:00 AM
Be Nice AR:)

I will end with one final thought. If Billie Jean King can still have dinner with Margaret Court and think it's silly to rename Margaret Court Arena over this issue then others might learn from her true display of tolerance.

Hats off to Billie Jean.
Don't be condescending. ;) Just FYI: I am nice. :angel:

Whoever said that Billie Jean Moffitt King is correct in everything she says or does is awesomely naive. :help:

austinrunner
Jan 31st, 2012, 04:36 AM
I have to respectfully disagree with you, Rollo. I find the 'She's only a silly old codger' argument rather facetious.

Here is an article that addresses this much better than I could:
http://benpobjie.blogspot.com/2012/01/thinking-bit-more.html

Some excerpts from the blog (the parts I mostly agree with):... Margaret Court doesn't really matter, being as she ... thinks it's reasonable to cite the number of Wimbledons won as proof of the correctness [of] one's views on homosexuality. However, I think it does matter how we think of [her].

Because the thing is, Margaret Court is ... not just a loveable daffy old goose who's not quite "up to date". ... She's not your grandma. She's nasty and she's hateful and she wants to ruin the lives of perfectly nice, decent human beings.... t's important we remember this.

And it's important that we remember that in remembering this, we do not get sidetracked by red herrings about "freedom of speech" ... and ... "censorship". It's important to not give ground to those who claim, when a person is given a public platform in Australia's most-read newspaper to spread vicious, senseless hatred, that the "real issue" is whether she's entitled to her opinion. Everyone already knows she's entitled to her opinion, and we're entitled to ours. Which is that her opinion is repellent.

It's important to remember this because this is a matter of progress. The fact is, if Margaret Court had written a column about how, as a 3-time Wimbledon champion, she is absolutely certain that blacks and Asians are disobeying [G]od's law and were an abomination to good Christians, nobody would be wringing their hands about the mean lefties who won't leave ... Margaret alone. They'd just call her a racist bitch, and rightly so. That's because consensus is that blacks and Asians are people. It would seem that we're not quite there with gay people. It would seem that we still believe that any rights we grant them are our "favour" to the gays. Because gays don't actually [I]deserve any rights or privileges or respect - we're just nice enough to give them a few if we're feeling magnanimous. So if they complain, they're just being whiny. If they object to being labelled evil, or a lesser form of life, they're being ungrateful.... We apparently have not progressed to the point where we're willing to say, those folks who like sexytimes with members of their own genital persuasion merit the same rights as any of us purely by virtue of the fact they exist as human beings. They don't need to earn it, they don't need to play nice, or pipe down and smile politely - they just need to be treated the same as everyone else, because that's what they are.

But we're not there yet. And that's why Margaret Court can vomit up the trash that she does, and that's why she can be defended by ... [those] hiding behind the skimpy veil of free speech. And that's why we've got to slash that veil to ribbons....

... Margaret Court and her cohorts lash out like this, because they know we're winning. We're winning and they're losing and every time they scream about immorality or redefining marriage it's nothing but the strangled yelp of a battered old dog that knows it's never going to win this fight. ... Our world will move on. Our species will skip happily into the future, and ... Margaret Court knows it. They all do. That's why they scream so loud, and cry so pitifully about bullying and censorship when their screaming is treated with the contempt it deserves.

The history of the human race is the long, slow, painful story of society trying to catch up to decency. We're closer than ever, but there's still so far to go. But we're going to get there. We'll reach that peak. As long as we know, when confronted by the bigots and hatemongers who want to drag us backwards, to shout aloud, to call them what they are, take them head-on ... and leave them in the dust where they can't hinder us any more.

That's why it's important what we think of ... Margaret Court. And it's important to say what we think. Because every time we tell the truth about these people, we move that tiniest bit further forward.

To the victory that both sides know is coming.

austinrunner
Jan 31st, 2012, 04:58 AM
There is no admission of gray-when someone is comparing Mrs Court to Adolf Hitler my reaction is to laugh out loud and start to tune out the rest of the argument.

You think this is funny? Really? What bothers me is your tone. :eek:

Did you notice the context of my comment about Hitler? :wavey: If you didn't, here it is:

Give her credit for at least stating what she believes, out loud. She isn't covering it up, mincing words, or trying to be 'PC' to get along in her sport or business affairs.

Hitler didn't either. Neither is that kook in Uganda who wants its parliament to enact the death penalty for gays. Nor are the leaders of roughly 25 African nations who during the last 6 years have publicly rejected pleas from numerous countries and international organizations to legalize same-sex relationships. Many of those countries have extraordinary prison sentences just for being gay.

Having the courage to promote hate and discrimination in the news media is not a virtue. Mrs. Court goes beyond just talking. She sends missionaries with her hate values to African countries. (Similar missionaries have caused the renewal in violence against gays in Uganda.) She lobbies to prevent and overturn progressive legislation in Western Australia and the commonwealth of Australia. She is a political figure who no one would care about had she not won so many tennis titles. She uses her fame to promote her hate agenda.

alfajeffster
Jan 31st, 2012, 08:15 AM
...Have fun in the Castro and let me know how it goes. I heard there were actually a lot of children are in the Castro these days, it's going straight. I hope I misheard.

That may be, but whenever I travel, I never forget to pack my portable microwave, just in case there's a children infestation (beep beep beep, BOOM!) And if they turn out to be a little too big to cram into the microwave, there's always pepper spray. I imagine there's an unlimited supply in Oakland just across the bay.

You know, I used to be a member and played in the GTF (Gay Tennis Federation), which is now the GLTF, which was then headquartered in the Castro. I've since been back several times, and the last time, I went up to the courts we used as home base up above the Castro. The were all cracked with grass growing out of them, and appeared like ghost courts. Just a thought to cheer you up!

Helen Lawson
Jan 31st, 2012, 09:59 AM
That may be, but whenever I travel, I never forget to pack my portable microwave, just in case there's a children infestation (beep beep beep, BOOM!) And if they turn out to be a little too big to cram into the microwave, there's always pepper spray. I imagine there's an unlimited supply in Oakland just across the bay.

You know, I used to be a member and played in the GTF (Gay Tennis Federation), which is now the GLTF, which was then headquartered in the Castro. I've since been back several times, and the last time, I went up to the courts we used as home base up above the Castro. The were all cracked with grass growing out of them, and appeared like ghost courts. Just a thought to cheer you up!

It did! What about those empty pools nearby? Or are they really empty....:eek:

Rollo
Jan 31st, 2012, 03:25 PM
Thread reopened.

rollingraces
Nov 18th, 2013, 03:31 AM
I am gay but I do believe Court is entitled to her own beliefs. Religion is a tricky thing. I am a Christian and I don't believe at all in God being anti gay in anyway, but she must have a different interpretation and that is her personal right I suppose.

rollingraces
Nov 18th, 2013, 03:32 AM
I do think Court is overall a good person.

Hugues Daniel
Nov 18th, 2013, 02:31 PM
I don't share Margaret Court's morals or beliefs, but she's free to speak her mind. I don't find her offensive. What's interesting, is that her beliefs may have helped her to have a strong mental as a player. It takes part of her success, her own road, her own story.

rollingraces
Nov 18th, 2013, 08:04 PM
I don't share Margaret Court's morals or beliefs, but she's free to speak her mind. I don't find her offensive. What's interesting, is that her beliefs may have helped her to have a strong mental as a player. It takes part of her success, her own road, her own story.

I agree with all that. I think what rubs some people the wrong way is how aggressive she is at pushing her point on others, but she is fully entitled her opinions and values.

thrust
Nov 21st, 2013, 01:44 AM
I don't share Margaret Court's morals or beliefs, but she's free to speak her mind. I don't find her offensive. What's interesting, is that her beliefs may have helped her to have a strong mental as a player. It takes part of her success, her own road, her own story.
From what I have read, it seems that Margreat was raised in a very conservative Catholic family. I do not think she was much concerned with religion and Gay issues as a player. It was when she retired and became a Born Again Christian Minister that religion and Gay issues became important to her. I have also read that her church did much to help needy Gays when the Aids epidemic first hit, providing food and other help, when others were afraid to go near Aids patients at that time. Whatever, like Margreat, we all have flaws and beliefs which may or may not be accurate.

Rollo
Nov 21st, 2013, 03:30 AM
What's interesting, is that her beliefs may have helped her to have a strong mental as a player. It takes part of her success, her own road, her own story.

In her last book Court credits a good amount of her success to her faith. As Thrust points out, for most of her career she was fairly religious but not "born again" so to speak.

Not sure, but I think it's about 1975 (as her career wound down) that the born again Margaret comes out.

rollingraces
Nov 21st, 2013, 05:35 AM
From what I have read, it seems that Margreat was raised in a very conservative Catholic family. I do not think she was much concerned with religion and Gay issues as a player. It was when she retired and became a Born Again Christian Minister that religion and Gay issues became important to her. I have also read that her church did much to help needy Gays when the Aids epidemic first hit, providing food and other help, when others were afraid to go near Aids patients at that time. Whatever, like Margreat, we all have flaws and beliefs which may or may not be accurate.

Wow I didn't know that last part. That is incredible, what a contribution. Especialy for someone who doesn't like gay people that much.

thrust
Nov 23rd, 2013, 01:40 AM
Wow I didn't know that last part. That is incredible, what a contribution. Especialy for someone who doesn't like gay people that much.

From what I gather, people like M. Court do not dislike Gay People, but they are against Gay sex. They believe that Gays choose to be Gay and do not understand, or want to understand, sexual orientation is not chosen by any human but the result of one's physical or sexual make up. Basically, IMO, they take the Bible too seriously.