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Josh
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:01 AM
The president of the European Reform Commission and former president of France, Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, has said that if Turkey would join the EU it would mean the end of the union. Because Turkey is not a European country, only a small part of its area is in Europe and over 90% of its population lives on the Asian part.

So does that make Turkey NOT European or was he mistaken by saying this?
Should Turkey join the EU, why or why not?
And of course how do the Turks think about this? Do they see themselves as European or Asian?

i-girl
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:11 AM
they must be European, after all, they're in the Eurovision song contest! hang on, we're in that too! OMG, we're Europeans:eek: .

lol, I can't speak for Turkey, but we're kind of in the same situation here- not belonging clearly to any continent. we consider ourselves non-continental. a country with a continent:).
no, seriously, obviously there will be great advantages for Turkey (and a price to pay along with them) if they join the EU. but in all honesty, I understand people who say they're not European. they just aren't. I'm not saying they shouldn't be considered for EU membership, maybe the advantages in Turkey joining the EU should bring both sides to ignore the lack of European-ness, and go on, but I just can't see how Turkey is truely "European".

Zamboni
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:15 AM
Turkey is more European than Israel anyway, but really European? Nah. A small part of Turkey is European, so they could become a member of the EU, but I don't consider them a European country.

:confused:

i-girl
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:21 AM
ok, you realize I wasn't seriously saying we're European, right:confused: ? and btw, we have the second highest high tech income per pesron in the world after Finland (Nokia. what one company can do to a country), so you could do a lot worse than us (what are you considering now? Cyprus? Romania? pfff). but we're not trying to join the EU. (even though what's his face Solana tried to suggest last time he was in Israel that if we accpet European involvement in the peace process, and a settlement is reached, Israel will become a top contendant to join the EU.)

Messenger
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:23 AM
lol kick Israel out of Eurovision! I think that Israel is definately Asia, Turkey should be considered as Asia as well.

Russia is the only country I consider to be bi-continental

Zamboni
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:26 AM
chill, i-girl, I know you were not stating you were European. I am stating you are not. You should not join the Eurovision songcontest or the European Championships in every sport. But that's my opinion. I also see the difficulties in you joining the Asian competitions, but does that mean you are European? No.

Turkey and Russia are both bi-continental.

i-girl
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:27 AM
if you kicked us out of Eurovision, you will have no drag queens singing "diva" songs, and winning first prize (go Dana, go Dana:bounce: ). you will only be punishing yourselves:angel: .

we are not Asian. we are not European. from now on when asked, say "Israel is non-continental". if I must choose, I say we're african. Eilat is kinda in Africa:D .

Messenger
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:28 AM
Israel won Eurovision? So everyone is going there next year?

Josh
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:29 AM
Well maybe we should also look at the historical ties between Turkey (or what is now Turkey) and the European continent. The country has been home to some major European civilisations like the Greeks, the Romans, the Byzantines. When the Ottomans came much of that European "influence" was incorporated in a way. And in 1923, when Turkey became what it is today, Atatürk reformed the country towards European model.
Also many millions of Turks live in the EU today as a result of immigration in the 50s and 60s. So I would say hat there definitely are reasons to consider Turkey "European".

About Israel, I wouldn't say Turkey is more European than Israel. After all many Israelis (maybe even the majority??) fled Europe after WWII and settled in Israel. Jews have always been present in Europe and have shaped European history so that makes them also part of Europe even if many made it clear that they are not wanted in Europe (Inquisition, Holocaust, etc...). If you visit cities like Prague, Krakow, Budapest, Vienna,... you can see how much Jews have contributed to European history and wealth.
But of course I can imagine that many Jews don't like to be called "European" after all that has happened to them on this continent.

matthias
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:30 AM
Marocco is part of the Eurovision too!!!
the reason why Israel is part of Eurovision and UEFA (Football) is the fact that no arabian country want them

i-girl
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:30 AM
lol, that was a few years ago, C:D . you don't remember our Dana:eek: ? ok, you must not be European;) .

Adnil, I'm sorry if Isounded mad, I'm really not:D.

niratti
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:30 AM
so Turks and Russian are bi then :p :)

Messenger
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:31 AM
Well where do you draw the line? Turkey is 90% in Asia. If a country has a hectare in another continent, is it bi-continental too? I'm not sure.

gmt
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:32 AM
Personally I am rather for Turkey's admission into the EU.

Why are many people here so reluctant to see Turkey join the Union?
The first reason, I think, is history. The little most Europeans know about Turkey comes from school, and that is about invasions, crusades, etc. So Turkey appears like the oldtime foe.
The second reason, closely related to the first, is religion. People fear that were a Muslim country (and a big one, for that matter) to join the Union, proselytism would spread much faster than it already does.
The third one is the feeling that Turkey is not yet a democratic country, that minorities are not treated fairly, and you can add the idea that Midnight Express does not completely belong to the past and that Turkey remains a heavily militarized country.
The fourth one, especially in France, is the fact that contrary to Germany, present-day Turkey refuses to endorse any part of the Armenian genocide, and actually denies that there ever was such a genocide.

Point 1 belongs to the past IMO.
Point 2 has to be taken into account.
Point 3 is probably much exaggerated.
Point 4, I think, stands to reason, and Turkey should not be so overly proud as to refuse to do what Germany did.

I am not sure that joining the Union would be all benefit for Turkey either. It would be tough especially for the local automobile industry (there is no Turkish automobile company stricto sensu, but most cars running there have been made in the country). Some areas probably are not ready for competition with Western products.

But I still believe that both sides have more to gain than to lose from Turkey's adhesion.

Turkey is not, at least not completely a European country. Last summer, I felt that without criticizing Atatürk's reforms in any way, Turkish people were more eager to speak of their Asian roots. Now, as i-girl said, Turkey, quite like Greece actually, is not entirely Oriental either. It stands between two worlds, and that may not be necessarily a problem. Socially, I really don't think that Turkey is farther from Western European standards than several of the Central & Eastern European countries due to join the Union in less than two years. Neither is it economically. And politically, of course populism seems to meet a lot of success there, but, as a French citizen, I don't feel like teaching lessons on that matter :o

Most of all, I am very pessimistic about what might happen if the EU retains its reluctant attitude towards Turkey. Turkey has passed a number of laws this summer which, indeed, must now be converted into facts, but still denote a strong political will. I think that Turkey has already proved its determination to solve tough problems in several occasions. We can't act as though they had done nothing, or just trifle. If we keep our doors closed, we will probably be offering millions of votes to extremist parties, and to Muslim fundamentalists, to begin with. Last elections were won by an Islam-based party, but (officially) in favour of turkey's joining the Union. Now, we mustn't carelessly feed the following discourse: "You want to be Westernized - the West doesn't want you. You preach for equality between sexes - it is hardly more than an illusion, and women lose protection while gaining nothing real." Etc.

I might be mistaken, but I frankly believe that having Turkey within the EU is not only more logical, but also safer than leaving it out and letting it (not now, but possibly later) turn into a stronghold of hardliners, and a wall between the West and the (Middle) East.

Well, that's just a small part of my opinion on that matter ;)

Messenger
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:32 AM
So Israel hosted Eurovision? Eurovision being held outside of Europe!:)

i-girl
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:32 AM
very nice post Josh. you really hit the spot there.

Zamboni
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:33 AM
I consider a country belonging to the continent it lies on. If we would act like the standards Josh set, either the USA would be European, or West-Europe would be American.

I kinda agree though at the History-thing. Turkey has always been a major force on the Balkan, now they only have a small piece of land left there, but they still do have land in Europe, so they are partly European.

Israel is definitely not African, just check out a map of the area ;)

matthias
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:35 AM
90% from turkey are asia, but i would call it europe.
but israel is for sure not europe.
russia is europe too

niratti
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:36 AM
i think it's not only what advantages Turkey will get from the EU but also what advantages EU will get from Turkey if they join them.

gmt
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:37 AM
Israel won the Eurosong contest in 1978, 1979, before Dana International did :)
I don't think that Israelis want to join the Union, but I wouldn't find it insane if they did. Now, one would have to ask whether neighbouring Arab countries want to join as well, and that would lead us a bit far. I think that in some respects, the line is easier to draw between Turkey and the rest of the Middle East.

Josh
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:38 AM
Nice post gmt!

BTW if Turkey joins the EU it will be the largest and most populous country in the EU. Maybe a reason why some of the big nations (France, Germany, UK) might be a bit reluctant to accept Turkey even though they don't say it out loud?

i-girl
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:39 AM
we are Africans. I have decided. and if you will all keep annoying me, we'll become American.

:D ;) :p

good post, gmt. in all honesty, though it probably stands against Israel's direct interests, I also am leaning towards thinking that maybe Turkey joining the EU is a good thing. but I still don't pretend they're European:) .

Zamboni
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:39 AM
Good post gmt, hadn't seen that before.

i-girl, it's ok, I'm just a bit tired of seeing Israel called European all the time.

Messenger
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:41 AM
Okay so Turkey is technically bi-continental. What other countries are there? Russia. Egypt. Colombia? Georgia, Amenia, Azerbaijan? Kazakhstan? (has atlas out)

gmt
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:41 AM
Turkey is a big country and has an ability to face some problems with the energy needed. So, despite all the problems involved in including such a huge piece of land, I believe that the EU has things to gain from Turkey's adhesion.

Also, I think that we generally underestimate the extent of Atatürk's reforms. It is actually almost unbelievable.

~ The Leopard ~
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:42 AM
Whether the main Turkish landmass - Anatolia - belongs to what has historically been considered the "European" part of Eurasia probably isn't that relevant. Yes, it is considered to lie in Asia. But it is more important that Ataturk founded Turkey as a modern secular nation, able to be part of the developed world, and that his vision has largely been achieved - despite some current doubts with the electoral success of a heavily religious political party.

Turkey has strong cultural, ethnic, economic and military links with the European nations, and is, in particular, a member of NATO.

Istanbul is one of the great cities of the world, and one of my favourite places: beautiful, cosmopolitan, both modern and historical. It is fitting that it be considered part of Europe in the same way as Athens and Rome.

To me, it makes a lot of sense for Turkey to become part of the EU, provided it can meet the appropriate standards for human rights and fiscal management.

i-girl
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:43 AM
but Linda, it's only in sports. no other league but UEFA will take us, and people here love football. we are not seriously considered European for any other puropse, it's nothing to be upset at.

Josh
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by adnil
I consider a country belonging to the continent it lies on. If we would act like the standards Josh set, either the USA would be European, or West-Europe would be American.

There is a big difference between the US and Israel in terms of ties with Europe. Many Israelis still have close family in Europe and most of them still speak the language of the country they came from, be it Germany, Belgium, France, Poland, Hungary, etc...
The big migration of Jews from Europe to Israel is a recent one whereas Europe and the US have evolved into two very different societies, ties between Europe and Israel are much closer.

i-girl
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:47 AM
also (to add to what Josh is saying), just a small detail not everyone knows- there is a very large number of Israelis that are by law entitled to German citizenship, and through that to EU citizenship. Nimi and I are such two examples. but Israel is not really a realistic candidate to the EU, so we should go back to Turkey.

Josh
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:49 AM
I saw a documentary about that on TV, Noga.

But ok, back to Turkey.... :bounce:

i-girl
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:51 AM
no, please tell me about that, what was it about?

Zamboni
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:51 AM
ok, ok, Israel might have ties with Europe, but they are not European, in contrary to what I'm hearing more and more.

Messenger
Nov 10th, 2002, 10:57 AM
Is Jerusalem still half in Jordan?

i-girl
Nov 10th, 2002, 11:02 AM
nope, we have a peace agreement with Jordan, settling that. where have you been:D ;) ? why? would we be more European if we were half Jordanian?

Messenger
Nov 10th, 2002, 11:04 AM
I'm still at school, and I remember learning about that in history. Maybe our history books are a little outdated!

Messenger
Nov 10th, 2002, 11:06 AM
There was a huge area of Jordan that was "disputed" by Israel, the border between Jordan and Israel went through Jerusalem didn't it?

i-girl
Nov 10th, 2002, 11:06 AM
you're in school:eek: ? wow, I'm impressed, I thought you were a lot older. it's all pretty new, Rabin (RIP) signed it less than 10 years ago with King Hussein.

Josh
Nov 10th, 2002, 11:07 AM
Lol :p

Gosh it's a long story....basically it's about this Israeli Jew, whose parents fled Europe after the war. And he's looking for an answer to his question "Was the creation of Israel a good event for the Jews?". And basically he follows two paths, zionism and diasporism. He talks with Jews in Israel, in Euorpe in America about their views and so on. He discovers that since the start of the latest Intifada many Jews are actually returning to Europe so he talks with people who have decided to leave Israel, asks them about their reasons and fear of anti-semitism. He also talks with people who have left Israel and are already living in Europe and so he discovers that anti-semitism is still very much alive in most Eastern-European countries. In Hungary there's a party that opposes to an increasing number of Jews buying houses in Budapest and an old woman tells him that Jews should stay in Israel, that they are not wanted over here. But when he talks with a young Jewish girl who moved to Budapest she tells them that it's not really that bad and that she loves the city and doesn't want to go back to Israel ever again.

And then he talks with a Jewish family who has just been approved for German citizenship and the whole family is moving back to Germany.

Basically he puts diasporic Jews against zionist Jews but in the end he still doesn't know the answer if Israel was a good thing for the Jews though he loves his country very much, he doesn't know if Israeli Jews are now better off then European Jews before 1948. (Eurpean hatred towards Jews vs Arab hatred towards Jews)

i-girl
Nov 10th, 2002, 11:09 AM
it's the other way around C:) . there was an area that was included in Israel that Jordan claimed. it's all been settled, Jordan received some land, and gave up all claims on any other territories. it's actually a pretty successful peace agreement.

Josh
Nov 10th, 2002, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by adnil
ok, ok, Israel might have ties with Europe, but they are not European, in contrary to what I'm hearing more and more.

Linda, what do you mean with "they"? As Noga pointed out, many Israelis are actually entitled to citizenship of a European country so in a way "they" are European because they have lived here for many generations but were driven out due to WWII.
I understand that Israel, the country is not European because it lies on another continent but if we're talking about the people, things are different IMO.

PS : I don't wanna force Europeanhood onto Israelis (;)@Noga), it's up to them to feel whatever they want.

i-girl
Nov 10th, 2002, 11:14 AM
Israel is not only the best solution (bad word, I know) for Jews, it's the only solution. pff, yeah, ofcourse Jews can live in relative safety in Europe now. it's because the existance of the state of Israel protects them from the next holocaust:rolleyes: . ok, going back to the original subject... :D

Messenger
Nov 10th, 2002, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by i-girl
you're in school:eek: ? wow, I'm impressed, I thought you were a lot older. it's all pretty new, Rabin (RIP) signed it less than 10 years ago with King Hussein.

Really? Do I sound old or is it my user name? I'm usually not too vocal on these boards. Actually I'm not in school anymore, I finished my last exam on Friday. I should have studied more, I wasted some hours watching Schnyder vs. Davenport in Zurich when I had an exam a couple of hours after ;)

BTW, are you Jewish?

i-girl
Nov 10th, 2002, 11:22 AM
I read some posts of yours in a different thread. it was something about religion. I think we disagreed, but you were definitly coming off inteligent and mature:) . and yes, I'm Jewish.

Josh, you're so sweet. I really don't think Israel becoming European is something that can happen in the forseeable future, but it's so nice that you sound... not so against it.

Messenger
Nov 10th, 2002, 11:28 AM
Oh I see, thanks but other than religion I'm not that intelligent. Heck, I didn't know that Jerusalem is no longer half Jordan! ;)

Zamboni
Nov 10th, 2002, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by Josh


Linda, what do you mean with "they"? As Noga pointed out, many Israelis are actually entitled to citizenship of a European country so in a way "they" are European because they have lived here for many generations but were driven out due to WWII.
I understand that Israel, the country is not European because it lies on another continent but if we're talking about the people, things are different IMO.

PS : I don't wanna force Europeanhood onto Israelis (;)@Noga), it's up to them to feel whatever they want.

Hmm I was talking about the country, but about the people too. I didn't know many Israeli's have a European citizenship.

i-girl
Nov 10th, 2002, 11:36 AM
I'm sure lots of people didn't know that Jerusalem was ever divided so I'd say you're doing well:) .

Zamboni
Nov 10th, 2002, 11:36 AM
oh, and I am not really against Israel to become "European", I just feel it would be unfair.

i-girl
Nov 10th, 2002, 11:39 AM
many Israelis are entitled to a European citizenships, most of them (like me) don't ask for it.

i-girl
Nov 10th, 2002, 11:40 AM
I didn't think you were "against" anyone Linda:) . you've never given me any reason to think you're anti-anyone.

Josh
Nov 10th, 2002, 11:52 AM
I think the European Union needs to go through some reforms first before all these new members join. We're headed for a chaos if nothing changes real soon. :o

gmt
Nov 10th, 2002, 11:55 AM
Another unfair thing - why is Josh sweet and not me? :mad: ;)
Back to the subject - a question I've heard a couple of times lately is "which should join the EU first: Russia or Turkey?" I'd say that Russia has unquestionable reasons to feel European, but problems regarding security, safety, ethnic prejudice, maffias seem much more tricky and widespread in Russia.

i-girl
Nov 10th, 2002, 11:56 AM
isn't the main concern that if Turkey is accepted, there will be masses of turks moving into Europe to work and live there? I think that's what's really behind the oposition, and I'm not sure it's not a fair concern.

Josh
Nov 10th, 2002, 11:57 AM
:p@gmt!

Also, Russia hasn't showed the same eagerness as Turkey about joining the EU so my bet is on Turkey.

Josh
Nov 10th, 2002, 12:00 PM
Well there are already millions of Turks living in Europe, 2 million in Germany alone. But it's a concern voiced about every new member. When Spain and Portugal joined you could hear it and now also with all the Eastern European countries joining. But it has been proven false in the past so I don't think it will happen now.

i-girl
Nov 10th, 2002, 12:01 PM
OMG gmt is back from the dead:eek: . you didn't even talk to me here! you never talk to me anymore:-(. and Josh was being uncharacaristically (god, I probably misspelled this word to death) nice to me and my country. that couldn't go unnoticed. I mean, he actually, like, stood up for us! history in the making:) .

gmt
Nov 10th, 2002, 12:05 PM
http://perso.club-internet.fr/ttle/tennis/scolded.gif

I haven't heard or read much about a fear of Turks settling in the West. But many think that Turkish Eastern boundaries are not well-kept, and thus believe that thousands of Kurdish and Afghan refugees might come through Turkey. Honestly, I don't think that Turkey joining the Union would change anything significant under that respect.
Josh, undeed Russia has not expressed such a will, but Russia being out can be - and is - used as an excuse by some not to let Turkey in :rolleyes:

gmt
Nov 10th, 2002, 12:07 PM
"uncharacteristically" Noga ;)

http://perso.club-internet.fr/ttle/tennis/dissolved.gif

i-girl
Nov 10th, 2002, 12:12 PM
"pain in the ass" gmt.

:D :hearts:

Iorhael
Nov 10th, 2002, 12:12 PM
OK but I hope that If EU decided to start reforms it wouldn't delay the admission of the new members.If EU will change a date, for example in Poland many pepole could say NO in referendum.

gmt
Nov 10th, 2002, 12:14 PM
That was so tenderly expressed Noga :D :kiss:

Adamsyt, you mean that if the admission was delayed beyond January 2004, Polish people would refuse to join the Union any more?

Josh
Nov 10th, 2002, 12:15 PM
Oh I agree, it's not fair to create expectations among new candidates and then delay their admission. The EU should have started reforms way earlier to anticipate on the admission of new members but oh no, they had to keep that for the last minute. :rolleyes:

Welcome Poland btw :wavey:

i-girl
Nov 10th, 2002, 12:16 PM
"tender" is my middle name.

i-girl
Nov 10th, 2002, 12:18 PM
is there any "somewhat European" country that you would not accept into the EU, Josh and gmt? I'm asking seriously. how about cyprus?

gmt
Nov 10th, 2002, 12:18 PM
And welcome Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Czech Republic, Slovak Republic, Hungary, Slovenia, Malta, Cyprus and Turkey, Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia,...

Josh
Nov 10th, 2002, 12:20 PM
Well Cyprus is set to become a member in 2004 but it's somewhat tricky with the division of the island that still exists.

Josh
Nov 10th, 2002, 12:21 PM
Hey you're a bit early concerning Latvia and Lithuania! ;)

Iorhael
Nov 10th, 2002, 12:24 PM
Gmt yes I think it is possible.Coz many people would think that EU is toying with us and that they really don't want us in EU.

Iorhael
Nov 10th, 2002, 12:26 PM
And thanks Gmt and Josh.It's nice to see that you wants us.

gmt
Nov 10th, 2002, 12:34 PM
Cyprus is a tricky case. There are wrongs on both sides...
Otherwise, no, there is no "somewhat European" country which I definitely wouldn't want to see joining the Union. Let's see:
Cyprus - preferrably in one piece
Turkey - see above
Russia - certainly later, but not now
Armenia - apart from economic problems and controversy with Azerbaijan, there is a specific one with their nuclear plant, but then, so have Bulgaria and Lithuania
Georgia - current unrest in Abkhazia and South Ossetia makes it quite impossible for the time being, but hopefully some day...
Azerbaijan - would seem logical once Turkey joins the Union, but democracy doesn't seem to be quite firm there as yet, social and economic structures are obsolete, and there is the war with Armenia
Morocco - does not look socially ready as yet, less than Turkey in any case (actually Tunisia seems a bit closer, but they haven't applied as far as I know)

Within Europe, I suppose that the degrees of "readiness" would be:
(a) Iceland, Norway, Switzerland,
(b) Bulgaria, Croatia, Romania,
(c) Montenegro,
(d) Albania, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Macedonia, Moldova, Serbia, Ukraine,
with Belarus standing apart because of their Stalinist president.

Josh
Nov 10th, 2002, 12:37 PM
Hey I'm all for new members joining the Union. It's great to see that a continent so ethnically diverse and torn apart by centuries of war is finally coming together again.

You would also include Morocco, gmt? Hmmm I'm not so sure about that one....based on what reasons would you accept them?

gmt
Nov 10th, 2002, 12:37 PM
What's the problem with Latvia and Lithuania? Have they been delayed? Last time I read about it, Lithuania was one of the top contenders... :confused:

Adamsyt, actually many think that Poland has more problems (regarding security and poverty for instance) than, say, Slovenia, but hardly anybody here imagines that other countries might join before Poland, which is the largest country in the area (apart from Ukraine) and such an integral part of European history and culture.

i-girl
Nov 10th, 2002, 12:38 PM
Morocco:eek: ? gmt, sweetie, did you look in a map recently? if morocco can be in the EU, why doesn't Isarel become one of the US states:rolleyes: ?

gmt
Nov 10th, 2002, 12:40 PM
Josh, I wouldn't include Morocco for now, I don't think that they are mentally ready, if for one reason. But they have applied, and ultimately one should wonder whether Europe shouldn't have a Mediterranean extension as well (I know, Morocco is more Atlantic than Mediterranean ;))

Josh
Nov 10th, 2002, 12:41 PM
Well Latvia and Lithuania are not part of the first group to join the EU in 2004, are they? Or am I wrong? :o

gmt
Nov 10th, 2002, 12:41 PM
Well, Noga, the Gibraltar straits are a wee bit smaller than the Mediterranean and the Atlantic Ocean put together :rolleyes:

gmt
Nov 10th, 2002, 12:42 PM
I thought that they were, Josh... Aren't there ten countries?

i-girl
Nov 10th, 2002, 12:48 PM
ok, if we're so loose, I'm taking back my assertion that we're african. we want to be New Zealanders:D . from now on say "the Israeli state of NZ", or maybe "the United states of NZ".
(I'm just joking, gmt. I did not mean to insult your geo knowledge, which is PERFECT. I just think it's funny to think that in some way morocco is European. I know it used to be ruled by France, but still...you're too nice. Josh is too. I'm sure most Europeans would not agree to this generousity(sp))

Josh
Nov 10th, 2002, 12:52 PM
You are right gmt :o...I dunno why but I always seem to think that Estonia is the only Baltic state to be accepted to join the EU in 2004. Sorry to all Latvians and Lithuanians. :o

Iorhael
Nov 10th, 2002, 12:53 PM
Josh Latvia and Lithuania are in the first group.

gmt
Nov 10th, 2002, 12:55 PM
You are right as well, Josh - have a look at this:
http://europa.eu.int/scadplus/leg/en/lvb/e40001.htm
What a mess :rolleyes:

Noga, definitely few people think of Morocco as part of Europe :D If it were to join the EU, that would be on an economic, social, political, cultural basis, and geographical if the EU agrees to expand across the Meditarranean, but Morocco is part of Africa, no doubt about that ;)

Flappie
Nov 10th, 2002, 12:58 PM
I dont consider Turkey a European country...the capital and like 95% of the people live in the not-European part!

gmt
Nov 10th, 2002, 12:58 PM
In fact, I read that many Latvians were reluctant against an early admission into the EU. There are several reasons for that: fear of economic pressure, fear of being a tiny country with hardly any part in common decisions, uncertainty about the status of ethnic Russians living in Latvia,... It seems that Lithuania might be readier, even though Riga has always been the most "Western" city in the Baltic states, often referred to as the "Eastern Paris".

Josh
Nov 10th, 2002, 01:01 PM
There's also the problem of Kaliningrad that needs to be resolved before those Baltic states can join. Still so much work to do and so little time.....

gmt
Nov 10th, 2002, 01:06 PM
Gargl... Kaliningrad... :rolleyes:

Josh
Nov 10th, 2002, 01:07 PM
Well it has to be resolved, no? :p

Messenger
Nov 10th, 2002, 01:08 PM
Montenegro is independent now? Or is it still the same country as Serbia.

Wojtek
Nov 10th, 2002, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Josh
There's also the problem of Kaliningrad that needs to be resolved before those Baltic states can join. Still so much work to do and so little time.....

It's really big problem . I think Kaliningrad should be in Lithuania or in Poland . Kalinigrad has never been russian city before second world war . Russia will not give Kalinigrad becasue they must have access to th sea

gmt
Nov 10th, 2002, 01:11 PM
I'm afraid it has to be resolved indeed :eek:

CM, Montenegro and Serbia are still a federation, albeit a looser one than Yugoslavia used to be. It is doubtful that Montenegro and Serbia will join the EU separately. But, were it to happen, probably Montenegro would be ready sooner. They depend much less on a largely obsolete industrial network than Serbia does, and have good opportunities to develop tourism, if they don't do it anarchically...

Messenger
Nov 10th, 2002, 01:14 PM
So if I'm Russian, how difficult is it for me to travel between Moscow and Kaliningrad? Do I need to go through 2 border passes?

Josh
Nov 10th, 2002, 01:16 PM
Yup, you have to go through Lithuania...Kaliningrad is completely isolated from the rest of Russia.

Josh
Nov 10th, 2002, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by Wojtek


It's really big problem . I think Kaliningrad should be in Lithuania or in Poland . Kalinigrad has never been russian city before second world war . Russia will not give Kalinigrad becasue they must have access to th sea

But the people who live in Kaliningrad now are mostly Russians no?

Monique
Nov 10th, 2002, 01:18 PM
It is hard to culturally define Turkey in terms of geographic identity... More so than Russia, who are historically Europeans that occupied Asian lands bringing their culture to the Siberian region, the Turks have a distinct Asian flavour to their ways and systems...Turkey is truly a gateway between Asian and European peoples, and their fairly recent occupation of Balcanic and Middle Eastern land further attest and contribute to this perception.

Even historically Anatolia was subject to more invasions and occupations than few other parts of the world, and the old Byzantine Empire had a distinct European flavour (basically Greek) and Asian (Persian) one at the same time...Turkey is definitely more "western" than most of its Asian neighbours, but it is still "Aisan" enough to be considered "exotic" by European visitors.

In the end, the decision on if to accept Turkey's inclusion into the EU will be more a political and economical one than a decision based on geographic and cultural position...

Iorhael
Nov 10th, 2002, 01:19 PM
So Wojtek what they should do?To displace all Russians from Kaliningrad?:rolleyes:

Seles_Beckham
Nov 10th, 2002, 01:21 PM
Turkey is in Europe and in Asia so I don't see why Turket should't be in EU because Istanbul is in Europe.

I consider Turkey like an European country because they do the Eurovision and you can't participate if you are not in Europe..

TURKEY = EU.

gmt
Nov 10th, 2002, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by Josh
But the people who live in Kaliningrad now are mostly Russians no?
Yes :cool:
I doubt that many of them still speak Old Prussian...
I had a feeling that Russia insisted on keeping the Kaliningrad oblast, but did not want to (or did not have funds to) support it. I saw reports about tuberculosis and other diseases in Kaliningrad - it wasn't pretty :sad: even though it is still much better than in Grozny :fiery:

Wojtek
Nov 10th, 2002, 01:22 PM
Kalinigrad is the Russian city now but the real name is Królewiec (polish name from the past ) .

Wojtek
Nov 10th, 2002, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by Josh


But the people who live in Kaliningrad now are mostly Russians no?

But Latvian , Estonian people also speaks Russian between 45-89 when they were in USSR . So why Kalinigrad can be in Lithuania .

Josh
Nov 10th, 2002, 01:25 PM
Wasn't the original name of Kaliningrad, Königsberg, founded by the Teutonic Order?

gmt
Nov 10th, 2002, 01:26 PM
At some point, Russian scientists suggested that it be renamed "Kantgrad" (Emmanuel Kant was born in Königsberg) ;)

Wojtek
Nov 10th, 2002, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by Josh
Wasn't the original name of Kaliningrad, Königsberg, founded by the Teutonic Order?

Königsberg - it's german name and when you translate to Polish it's Królewiec :)

gmt
Nov 10th, 2002, 01:29 PM
Nice flag, btw :cool:
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ru-kgd.html#city

Josh
Nov 10th, 2002, 01:30 PM
Indeed, very pretty :cool:

i-girl
Nov 10th, 2002, 01:30 PM
I consider Turkey like an European country because they do the Eurovision and you can't participate if you are not in Europe..

huh! someone accepts my Eurovision song contest argument! surely, after winning not once, not twice, but THREE times, and with a woman who used to be a man none the less, we should be honorary Europeans:angel: . (joke, joke! I hope you weren't serious about that ns_seles. there are like 2,000 countries in the Eurovision now)

Irish
Nov 10th, 2002, 02:28 PM
It would be great if Turkey was accepted into the EU. They are a great NATO country and they do wish to be accepted into the EU. :D

bluepastures
Nov 10th, 2002, 06:10 PM
I think Turkey should definitely be allowed into the EU. That argument from Estaing, about it being primarily Muslim so not suited, is completely ridiculous. Not only is it verging on the racist, but Turkey does NOT have Islamic law. Indeed, isolating it from the EU, is likely to play into the hands of more radical Islamic groups.

Cassius
Nov 10th, 2002, 11:37 PM
Istanbul (most definitely IN Europe), is the 2nd largest European city (behind Paris), with just over 9.2 million people.

I think Turkey SHOULD be allowed into the EU.
Out of all the countries that will be joining in the next few years, not one of them is as strong as Turkey (even though they're having a bit of a crisis), and Turkey would be much more helpful to have on 'our' side (so to speak), than, for example, Romania.
To incorperate all the new countries, and not let in Turkey, is IMO foolhardy.
Come on, if we're going to let Romania in, why not the Turks?
(No offense to Romania, it's just that they're in a much worse position than Turkey right now)

gmt
Nov 11th, 2002, 08:55 AM
Romania will join sooner or later (they're both a European and a Latin country :cool:...), Romanian intellectuals can compete with the best in the world, but surely Turkey is in better shape right now, economically, socially, even politically.

President Giscard d'Estaing has always been like that. He has quite a few good ideas and some insight in European matters, but, every once in a while, he drops something very questionable, to say the least. He is no extremist, and I don't think that he is racist either, but a few of his ideas resemble those of much more right-wing groups.

i-girl
Nov 11th, 2002, 09:04 AM
you people are just going for world domination, why don't you just come out and say it. we will resist! we will resist! go USA! we will resist! (why am I still posting here?)

gmt
Nov 11th, 2002, 09:31 AM
Because you're an American, that's why ;)

i-girl
Nov 11th, 2002, 09:35 AM
we are now NewZealanders, gmt, aren't you paying attention??? (ok, I'll stop bombing Josh's highly informative thread with junk now).

gmt
Nov 11th, 2002, 10:03 AM
New Zealand is like Scotland with a touch of the tropics. Hmmm... Should make a worthy candidate for the European Union.

i-girl
Nov 11th, 2002, 10:07 AM
NZ is taken! by us! you REALLY aren't paying attention to me!
now, stop answering me, I want to stop posting here. I can't believe Josh's geeky thread has more posts than my b-day thread (though I did start mine a day later!). I mean, the future of Europe? who's interested in THAT?

Habsudovafan
Nov 11th, 2002, 10:10 AM
Turkey could join the EU but only after solving several problems. The most important problem being the matter of the kurds. If they can't solve that than membership is impossible. Europe would let go of all of it's principles if they accept that situation. I can understand this might be very painfull for turkey.
It would be a historical step if turkey became a member. It would also give Georgia, Armenia and Azerbajdzjan reason to apply for membership.

gmt
Nov 11th, 2002, 12:53 PM
What must Turkey do to solve the Kurdish problem now? Apply the laws voted last summer, for sure. But what next? I wonder.

Something else - can you find the answer to my question asked here (http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1072402#post1072402)? :cool:

gmt
Nov 11th, 2002, 03:20 PM
Hey, pictures from another country which might join the EU some day... Guess which one before you follow this link (http://www.georgien.net/Das_Land/das_land.html)!


http://www.georgien.net/Das_Land/Bilder/Sanapiro.jpg

http://www.georgien.net/Fotogalerie/TabazkuriSee_kl.jpg

http://www.georgien.net/Das_Land/Tiflis/Sololaki_kl.jpg

http://www.georgien.net/Das_Land/Tiflis/akademia.jpg

http://www.georgien.net/Das_Land/Sugdidi.jpg

http://www.georgien.net/Das_Land/BotanikGarten.jpg

http://www.georgien.net/Das_Land/nikorzminda.jpg

http://www.georgien.net/Das_Land/GroKaukasus.JPG

http://www.georgien.net/Esstrink/chinkali.jpg

Scotso
Nov 11th, 2002, 10:08 PM
I think Turkey hovers in the middle... it would be a great addition to the EU though... I mean, it brings a different perspective into the mix ;)

Cassius
Nov 12th, 2002, 12:10 AM
Turkey could join the EU but only after solving several problems. The most important problem being the matter of the Kurds.
It seems that the Turkish government (or maybe 'just' the prime minister), doesn't want to sort out the problem of the Kurds.
On the 10th of November, the Turkish PM released a statement saying that 'if' we attack and defeat Saddam, we should NOT give the Kurds any land to call their own.
He doesn't want them to have their own country.

I think that out of ALL the people in the world, the ones who MOST deserve to have their own country is the Kurds. They've been invaded, taken over and forced to live in submission since the Babylonians invaded them. That was over 2000 years ago:eek:
They should have their own land!

Monique
Nov 13th, 2002, 03:01 AM
humpf, gmt, it wasn't that easy! ;)
It's not technically an European nation, I think, and Romania also has the Black Sea coast and snow capped Carpathian mountains...but that amount of snow is more typical of the higher Caucasus, but I had to cheat to guess it right...:)

gmt
Nov 13th, 2002, 06:36 AM
I know it wasn't easy, but what is impossible to Monique :cool:
There is always debate as to whether the boundaries of Europe include Caucasus. What I find interesting with this country is its standing at the crossroads of history in a most peculiar way - its presence in some of the most "popular" ancient Greek legends, how one can trace the evolution and voyage of historic facts from the East towards Icelandic sagas through it,...

Monique
Nov 13th, 2002, 11:39 AM
I am also fascinated by history and geography...interesting to note in your last pic what seems to be a great Middle-Eastern influence on the Georgian cuisine...yummy!:)
ALso notice how the "square-box" buildings built during the communist era lack charisma close to the hystorical ones...

Barrie_Dude
Nov 13th, 2002, 11:56 AM
Yes, Turkey has a Eurpean Slant and is a part of NATO. I'd say let them in.

gmt
Nov 13th, 2002, 12:19 PM
Concerning Kurdistan (I agree that Kurds should have had a land of their own for ages, but now the problem is complex and a viable agreement would be better than nothing):

Iraqi Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (IPUK) leader Jalal Talabani, who is currently in Ankara to hold a series of meetings with Turkish authorities, said yesterday that the IPUK was not in favor of the establishment of an independent Kurdish state in northern Iraq. “We want an Iraq which has a democratic, federal structure,” said Talabani. Remarking that last week he had paid visits to Syria and Iran, Talabani stated that neither of those countries favored an independent Kurdish state. Stressing that the IPUK had good relations with Turkey, Talabani said that he would evaluate recent developments in the Middle East and Iraq in his talks with Turkish officials. He added that he wanted to meet with both Justice and Development Party (AKP) leader Recep Tayyip Erdogan and Republican People’s Party (CHP) leader Deniz Baykal, the new government and opposition party leaders, if it was possible. source: Aksam

Josh
Nov 13th, 2002, 12:33 PM
I don't think a land of their own is always a good solution. Presently Kurds live dispersed over different countries (Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran) so giving them a land of their own is not just Turkey's problem. Instead they should talk about a large autonomy for the Kurds within the Turkish state

Osssge
Dec 10th, 2002, 08:42 PM
It seems that the Turkish government (or maybe 'just' the prime minister), doesn't want to sort out the problem of the Kurds.

I think that out of ALL the people in the world, the ones who MOST deserve to have their own country is the Kurds. They've been invaded, taken over and forced to live in submission since the Babylonians invaded them. That was over 2000 years ago:eek:
They should have their own land!

Well, that's maybe because it's not a problem to be sorted out. if they're gonna have any land at all, it won't be from Turkiye. Turks have taken nothing from Kurds, she won't give anything back.

If we go back to the Babylonians my friend, then every single country should go back to their original habitats and leave the lands that they have occupied. Btw, Turks were not the first nation that occupied Anatolia....

Seles_Beckham
Dec 10th, 2002, 08:50 PM
EUROPEAN
GREAT COUNTRY...

Osssge
Dec 10th, 2002, 08:52 PM
I consider Turkiye as an Anatolian, Middle Eastern, Asian, European, Black Sea and Balkan country, we can only join a union which supports all these condition, lol... Really, if there were a WORLD UNION, i.e. one world one countrt, I'd love it.

Considering EU, I think Europe is afraid of the sudden rush of Turkish immigrants once they accept us. The problem we have here is not the "violation of human rights" but rather the low standards of living. People want to earn money and to feed themselves. That's our biggest problem and most people, inc. me, see salvation in immigrating to another country, particularly America and European countries. Because many people starve here. And even as a university graduate, it is sooo difficult to find a job. And when you find one, you cannot afford anything.

Well, I entertain the idea that we're the 51st state of USA but of course not literally...

I wish we could be a part of it but it just seems hopeless to me. I'd love to be able to tarvel in Europe as if I am going from one Turkish city to another, without passpost.

Also, it's not a religion problem, I think. Because anyone who visits Turkiye can see how secular we are. Yes, 99% is muslim but almost 85% is non-practicing. Which means they only know that they were born muslim but never do anything at all about religion.

Hope this was enlightening....

Josh
Dec 10th, 2002, 09:32 PM
Hi Özge :wavey:

There was a big debate on TV about Turkey's EU candidacy over here a few weeks ago. It seems like public opinion is a bit divided over the questions.
The most heard argument on the pro side was the fact that if the EU kept pushing Turkey back it might fall in the hands of muslim extremists and the biggest argument on the contra side was the question of human rights. A man from the Assyrian community who fled Turkey said that even though Turkey is a secular state in theory, there were still prosecutions and mockeries towards people from religious minorities. He said that the christian minority in Turkey was almost completely wiped out over the past decades.

Anyway, I'm on the pro side but I think Turkey should join when it fulfills all requirements for membership and I hope that will be soon.