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Morrissey
Aug 22nd, 2011, 01:16 PM
I really thought Jelena Jankovic was going to come up with a huge victory yesterday and she blew it in the second set tiebreaker. The problem I notice with Jankovic is her attitude on the court I just feel she doesn't take tennis seriously enough. Jankovic has all the tools to become a champion but she just doesn't have the mental toughness. It is so strange that Jankovic has a great record against the Williams Sisters yet she just doesn't do well against Sharapova. Jankovic was not bold or aggressive enough and that's why she lost this match. I don't think Jelena choked but I do feel that she did not believe in her heart she could beat Sharapova. People go on and on this board about Maria's serve yet they don't seem to want to admit she is a lot tougher mentally than most of the women on the WTA Tour. I look at Jelena Jankovic and I see an extremely talented tennis player she moves well, can volley, has a good serve. However, Jelena lacks that focus that grit and determination. I think it is shocking that Jelena has only reached one slam final she's too talented to not win a slam.

empressionist
Aug 22nd, 2011, 01:25 PM
totally agree with you. After going down 1-4 in 1st set Sanchez went on court and told her to be more agressive, she did listen to him to a certain point, and it messed up Maria's plot for almost two sets... However I do feel her effort was far from enough, the proof being her backhand down the line - once a powerful weapon, now just a good shot from time to time - she herself said there was nothing special she does with that shot but rather it came naturally - one swing and it was there. These days she lacks belief in it, and the right "swing" is gone...

goldenlox
Aug 22nd, 2011, 01:26 PM
Her wins over Vera and Jelena shows she still competes very hard, and still perfect in third sets this year.
She fought very hard at Cincy last year. She has to do that in NY where she hasnt gone far in a few years.

bandabou
Aug 22nd, 2011, 01:35 PM
Yep...but that's be known for sometime already. The ONLY player that TOTALLY psyches Maria out is Serena.

goldlion
Aug 22nd, 2011, 01:37 PM
JJ sort of ran out of gas in the end because it's been mentally drained for her as well during the match as she had to face numerous breakpoints. I guess she just didn't want it as bad as Sharapova so Maria could turn things around and win it all. Had she been aggressive enough, she would have gone for broke at either 4-5 and 5-6 when Sharapova was serving to stay in the match given the circumstances that her serve was so fragile. But that said, JJ's serve abandoned her to, which was a surprise that she hit that many Dfs.

tennisbum79
Aug 22nd, 2011, 01:40 PM
But the flip side of this would have been disastrous, because that is the only thing she can hang her hat on in this match

Read more more below
http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=20101984&postcount=11

theFutureisNow
Aug 22nd, 2011, 01:52 PM
It is so strange that Jankovic has a great record against the Williams Sisters yet she just doesn't do well against Sharapova. Jankovic was not bold or aggressive enough and that's why she lost this match.

It's not strange.

Jankovic is a defensive player.

Sharapova is an offensive player who often struggles against offensive players but usually does well against defensive ones. The best way to beat Maria is to put pressure on her- just returning all her groundstrokes is a losing proposition.

Serena is just the opposite of Maria in terms of how to beat her. She does great against offensive players but struggles against defensive ones. Pressuring her never works, which is why Maria does so bad against her(attacking is Maria's main weapon). The way to beat Serena is to defend well and hit everything to the lines.

bandabou
Aug 22nd, 2011, 02:07 PM
Indeed...Serena just sees another Davenport in Maria. Likes the pace and doesn't have to hit too many extra balls, excellent.

Vincey!
Aug 22nd, 2011, 02:13 PM
I really thought Jelena Jankovic was going to come up with a huge victory yesterday and she blew it in the second set tiebreaker. The problem I notice with Jankovic is her attitude on the court I just feel she doesn't take tennis seriously enough. Jankovic has all the tools to become a champion but she just doesn't have the mental toughness. It is so strange that Jankovic has a great record against the Williams Sisters yet she just doesn't do well against Sharapova. Jankovic was not bold or aggressive enough and that's why she lost this match. I don't think Jelena choked but I do feel that she did not believe in her heart she could beat Sharapova. People go on and on this board about Maria's serve yet they don't seem to want to admit she is a lot tougher mentally than most of the women on the WTA Tour. I look at Jelena Jankovic and I see an extremely talented tennis player she moves well, can volley, has a good serve. However, Jelena lacks that focus that grit and determination. I think it is shocking that Jelena has only reached one slam final she's too talented to not win a slam.

I agree that Jelena sure didn't seem to believe in herself in that match and that she was playng really well and that Maria proved that she was mentally tougher, but I think it's a bit pushy to call JJ a top player at this moment, I'd consider her win against Zvonareva a much better sign of Maria's mental toughnest against top player as she's #2. I agree with you that Jelena lacks of heart in her game, I remember watching her match earlier this week and she was blaming her box (coach and mum) to not cheer enough for her, that they were like deads in her box not giving her energy. I'm sorry but yes a box of supporters can help you during a match but as a top player or any atletes you shouldn't count on that to play well or not.

tennisbum79
Aug 22nd, 2011, 02:22 PM
Indeed...Serena just sees another Davenport in Maria. Likes the pace and doesn't have to hit too many extra balls, excellent.
I slightly disagree with you (and the futureIsNow, if that is the poster you are agreeing with).

Yes, Serena has easier time with offensive minded players, but she can also adjust to defensive minder players and still beat them, some using her superior will and determination to win. And that is what set her apart.


The exception among these offensive minded player is Capriati. She was a complete player with respect to these 2 criteria, and Serena had hard the hardest time with her.
They also get into each others head, which is no small factor. Most of the times, it is Serena who gets in her opponent's head.

allhailwilliams
Aug 22nd, 2011, 02:24 PM
Who cares, janko and the tall skinny one are both highly overrated

Monzanator
Aug 22nd, 2011, 02:25 PM
It's not strange.

Jankovic is a defensive player.

Sharapova is an offensive player who often struggles against offensive players but usually does well against defensive ones. The best way to beat Maria is to put pressure on her- just returning all her groundstrokes is a losing proposition.

Serena is just the opposite of Maria in terms of how to beat her. She does great against offensive players but struggles against defensive ones. Pressuring her never works, which is why Maria does so bad against her(attacking is Maria's main weapon). The way to beat Serena is to defend well and hit everything to the lines.

Well, not quite. Her three main nemesis on the tour currently are Serena, Azarenka & Li Na, neither of them a defensive speciallist. The biggest problems she's ever had with were players who can mix up a fairly good offense with a very solid defense, Kuznetsova & Henin being the prime examples. But then generally I also prefer seeing her against offensive ballbashers rather then defensive pushers. Azarenka & Li are still a thorn in the side. I agree on the Serena part though.

spencercarlos
Aug 22nd, 2011, 02:57 PM
Over the thread title, Jankovic has not really been a top 5 player in years,

I look at Jelena Jankovic and I see an extremely talented tennis player she moves well, can volley, has a good serve. However, Jelena lacks that focus that grit and determination.
I actually think its totally the opossite, Jelena is lacking a lot in her game, she does not have a real weapon, her golden backhand down the line is a rare event these days, and her serve is not something to write headlines either.
She still has focus and determination, what she is lacking is some the tecnical aspects, her forehand breaks down so easily, and today she is not as fast as she was come years ago.

I look at Jelena Jankovic and I see an extremely talented tennis player she moves well, can volley, has a good serve. However, Jelena lacks that focus that grit and determination. I think it is shocking that Jelena has only reached one slam final she's too talented to not win a slam.
At this point Jelena has not shown that she is a real grand slam contender, she reached that lone Usopen final and had a great 2008 but since then she has been a non factor even to reach the semis at these events.. Sooo

madmax
Aug 22nd, 2011, 03:17 PM
Indeed...Serena just sees another Davenport in Maria. Likes the pace and doesn't have to hit too many extra balls, excellent.

not true.
The matchup with Serena is totally a mental one, since Maria choked quite a lot of important matches to her already, starting with 2005 AO and then wasting set points last year in their Wimby match. When Maria is painting the lines there's nothing any player can do, just like she proved in 2004 Wimby final. Matchup wise the players who give her the biggest trouble are all-courters like Henin, Mauresmo and to a lesser extent Kuzzy and Zvonareva. I'm not counting her terrible losses to Pushniacki, since she generally had a very poor year and was a mess up untill the clay season this spring.

vozas
Aug 22nd, 2011, 03:17 PM
She has a mental edge over pretty much the entire WTA except for Serena. She'll continue folding like a discounted Decathlon tent against her.

The fact that she keeps focusing on winning no matter how many or how stupid her errors were is a testament to Maria's biggest asset. Somehow she never stops believing. I for one would've had an instant meltdown had I missed some of those forehands on BP :help:

spencercarlos
Aug 22nd, 2011, 04:02 PM
not true.
The matchup with Serena is totally a mental one, since Maria choked quite a lot of important matches to her already, starting with 2005 AO and then wasting set points last year in their Wimby match. When Maria is painting the lines there's nothing any player can do, just like she proved in 2004 Wimby final. Matchup wise the players who give her the biggest trouble are all-courters like Henin, Mauresmo and to a lesser extent Kuzzy and Zvonareva. I'm not counting her terrible losses to Pushniacki, since she generally had a very poor year and was a mess up untill the clay season this spring.
Sorry but Sharapova at her very best still is beatable, of course ONLY for a player like Serena and even Venus because of the movement.

Plus this its totally wrong to say players like Henin-Mauresmo-Kuznetsova are more difficult for Maria than Serena. On a given day these players are overpowered by Maria. Maria can´t do that against Serena and Venus.

madmax
Aug 22nd, 2011, 04:06 PM
Sorry but Sharapova at her very best still is beatable, of course ONLY for a player like Serena and even Venus because of the movement.

Plus this its totally wrong to say players like Henin-Mauresmo-Kuznetsova are more difficult for Maria than Serena. On a given day these players are overpowered by Maria. Maria can´t do that against Serena and Venus.

Maria had no problem dismissing of Serena in a slam final when she was still young and went for her shots without any fear. And your Venus argument is even dumber, because apart from peak Venus on grass she pretty much owns her on hardcourts thanks to her superior baseline game. Of course I'm speaking about peak Maria here, not the one who is losing to the likes of Voskoboeva or Oudin

bandabou
Aug 22nd, 2011, 04:10 PM
not true.
The matchup with Serena is totally a mental one, since Maria choked quite a lot of important matches to her already, starting with 2005 AO and then wasting set points last year in their Wimby match. When Maria is painting the lines there's nothing any player can do, just like she proved in 2004 Wimby final. Matchup wise the players who give her the biggest trouble are all-courters like Henin, Mauresmo and to a lesser extent Kuzzy and Zvonareva. I'm not counting her terrible losses to Pushniacki, since she generally had a very poor year and was a mess up untill the clay season this spring.

That was ONE match and was soooooo long ago. After a while you just have to face the facts and admit the truth: Serena is a TERRIBLE match-up for Maria. She can't outhit Serena, certainly not out-move her, won't outserve Serena...AND to make it worse: when the going gets tight, it's Maria who blinks first almost all the time.

bandabou
Aug 22nd, 2011, 04:12 PM
Maria had no problem dismissing of Serena in a slam final when she was still young and went for her shots without any fear. And your Venus argument is even dumber, because apart from peak Venus on grass she pretty much owns her on hardcourts thanks to her superior baseline game. Of course I'm speaking about peak Maria here, not the one who is losing to the likes of Voskoboeva or Oudin

:lol: I guess that one Wimbledon final will remain the highlight for Maria's career, despite the MANY MANY beatings Serena has dished to Maria since. 7-2 doesn't lie, my friend.

Monzanator
Aug 22nd, 2011, 04:12 PM
You are correct my friend, but let's not start another Serena vs Maria thing here. You've got the h2h to serve your joy, we've got Wimbledon 2004 to serve ours :wavey:

tennisbum79
Aug 22nd, 2011, 04:13 PM
Maria had no problem dismissing of Serena in a slam final when she was still young and went for her shots without any fear.



King or queen of hyperbole, you need to stick with the fact.

Aside for Wimbledon, how final has Maria won against Serena. You can't make an anomaly the rule, unless you want to multiply Wimbeond 2004

Maria is still young now, Serena is 29.

bandabou
Aug 22nd, 2011, 04:23 PM
You are correct my friend, but let's not start another Serena vs Maria thing here. You've got the h2h to serve your joy, we've got Wimbledon 2004 to serve ours :wavey:

;) Cool..although Serena has won more majors at the cost of Maria, than vice versa. Sooo, it's not just the h2h. :lol:

Monzanator
Aug 22nd, 2011, 04:32 PM
;) Cool..although Serena has won more majors at the cost of Maria, than vice versa. Sooo, it's not just the h2h. :lol:

Only those two really matter :angel:

http://www.ontennis.com/files/images/serena-williams-maria-sharapova-2806.jpg

http://www4.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Australian+Open+2007+Day+13+6Wba_byaxn7l.jpg

bandabou
Aug 22nd, 2011, 04:35 PM
Only those two really matter :angel:

http://www.ontennis.com/files/images/serena-williams-maria-sharapova-2806.jpg

http://www4.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Australian+Open+2007+Day+13+6Wba_byaxn7l.jpg

:yeah: :lol:

spencercarlos
Aug 22nd, 2011, 04:36 PM
:lol: I guess that one Wimbledon final will remain the highlight for Maria's career, despite the MANY MANY beatings Serena has dished to Maria since. 7-2 doesn't lie, my friend.
Serena also leads the grand slam head to head by a lot as well. Sure Maria won that Wimbledon in 2004 easily over Serena, but hard to say that Serena was anywhere near close her best IMO.

VishaalMaria
Aug 22nd, 2011, 04:36 PM
Serena was so tight in that Wimbledon match. I'm more than glad she made up for it.

VishaalMaria
Aug 22nd, 2011, 04:37 PM
Serena also leads the grand slam head to head by a lot as well. Sure Maria won that Wimbledon in 2004 easily over Serena, but hard to say that Serena was anywhere near close her best IMO.

She was tight because she was going three for a row. And Maria took full advantage. Fair play to her.

spencercarlos
Aug 22nd, 2011, 04:48 PM
;) Cool..although Serena has won more majors at the cost of Maria, than vice versa. Sooo, it's not just the h2h. :lol:
Back to the head to head. Maria has not beaten Serena since 2004 :facepalm: and some deluded still make an argument about Serena not being a bad match up for her.. :lol:

NeoZod19
Aug 22nd, 2011, 04:50 PM
No doubt. She may also be the player that win with the most DFs:worship:

VishaalMaria
Aug 22nd, 2011, 04:51 PM
Back to the head to head. Maria has not beaten Serena since 2004 :facepalm: and some deluded still make an argument about Serena not being a bad match up for her.. :lol:

Cos Peak Masha!!! hasn't turned up since AO 2008 is why.

tennisbum79
Aug 22nd, 2011, 04:55 PM
Only those two really matter :angel:

http://www.ontennis.com/files/images/serena-williams-maria-sharapova-2806.jpg

http://www4.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Australian+Open+2007+Day+13+6Wba_byaxn7l.jpg

Ok, if you say so.;):eek:

It is hard to have an honest discussion if there is no agreement on the documented, undisputed facts.

dsanders06
Aug 22nd, 2011, 04:58 PM
I find it odd that certain people think the Serena-Sharapova head-to-head is conclusive, yet that inspite of Sharapova beating Venus in all but one of their non-Wimbledon meetings, peak Venus would still apparently slay peak Maria on hardcourts :scratch:

The fact is that Serena is a very bad match-up for Maria because Maria's biggest weapon (mental toughness) is nullified by Serena being even greater in that department, as their head-to-head shows... and likewise, Maria is better than Venus away from grass, as THEIR head-to-head shows.

XSTopspin
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:05 PM
not true.
The matchup with Serena is totally a mental one, since Maria choked quite a lot of important matches to her already, starting with 2005 AO and then wasting set points last year in their Wimby match. When Maria is painting the lines there's nothing any player can do, just like she proved in 2004 Wimby final. Matchup wise the players who give her the biggest trouble are all-courters like Henin, Mauresmo and to a lesser extent Kuzzy and Zvonareva. I'm not counting her terrible losses to Pushniacki, since she generally had a very poor year and was a mess up untill the clay season this spring.

There they go! There they go! That's their one, that's their one! 2004!

http://photos16.flickr.com/21561079_a3b27d9593_m.jpg

VishaalMaria
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:07 PM
I find it odd that certain people think the Serena-Sharapova head-to-head is conclusive, yet that inspite of Sharapova beating Venus in all but one of their non-Wimbledon meetings, peak Venus would still apparently slay peak Maria on hardcourts :scratch:

The fact is that Serena is a very bad match-up for Maria because Maria's biggest weapon (mental toughness) is nullified by Serena being even greater in that department, as their head-to-head shows... and likewise, Maria is better than Venus away from grass, as THEIR head-to-head shows.

Mental toughness only? Uhm, ok. :lol::tape:

Serena does EVERYTHING better than Maria. And it's not just in the mental department. Serena serves better, has a bigger forehand, backhand, movement, net game, variety, point construction. Everything. Which is why she hasn't beaten her since Serena got injured in the YEC final.

Mental toughness only gets you so far. You need the game to back it up. As the head to head shows. And it's not as if Marias particularly mentally tough anyway. She can serve really well when there's no pressure but when there is pressure, dfs galore.

new-york
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:12 PM
LOL.

Jankovic is trying to come back as a top player.

The only thing it proves is that Maria playing well should beat these new top players which are not as good as the players she was competing with when she was winning slams.

Duh.

Stonerpova
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:18 PM
Maria has a mental edge over a lot of players. Whenever a player is asked a question about her they talk about her fight and her mental toughness. They walk onto the court knowing she's going to give everything she has in a match, and she won't ever go away. That's intimidating in itself before you even factor in her groundstrokes and her return of serve. But yeah, Jankovic isn't the only one.

doomsday
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:19 PM
Mental toughness only? Uhm, ok. :lol::tape:

Serena does EVERYTHING better than Maria. And it's not just in the mental department. Serena serves better, has a bigger forehand, backhand, movement, net game, variety, point construction. Everything. Which is why she hasn't beaten her since Serena got injured in the YEC final.

Mental toughness only gets you so far. You need the game to back it up. As the head to head shows. And it's not as if Marias particularly mentally tough anyway. She can serve really well when there's no pressure but when there is pressure, dfs galore.

This is really stupid, Maria had plenty of matches in her hands despite Serena being the better player. I know Serena is a bad matchup for Maria she is a bad matchup for anyone but I just know it isn't as easy as you guys are saying.

dsanders06
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:21 PM
Mental toughness only? Uhm, ok. :lol::tape:

Serena does EVERYTHING better than Maria. And it's not just in the mental department. Serena serves better, has a bigger forehand, backhand, movement, net game, variety, point construction. Everything. Which is why she hasn't beaten her since Serena got injured in the YEC final.

Mental toughness only gets you so far. You need the game to back it up. As the head to head shows. And it's not as if Marias particularly mentally tough anyway. She can serve really well when there's no pressure but when there is pressure, dfs galore.

:haha: Whatever you say.

Serena serves better and moves a lot better than Maria, I give Maria the edge for the forehand and backhand. Neither are particularly good at net.

VishaalMaria
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:25 PM
:haha: Whatever you say.

Serena serves better and moves a lot better than Maria, I give Maria the edge for the forehand and backhand. Neither are particularly good at net.

It's true. She isn't. Because if she was so mentally tough, she wouldn't be dfing at key moments in matches. Take, for example, her last match against Jelena. Maria was 4-1 up and up until that point her serve was working well. When Jelena started playing a bit better and started getting more balls back, Maria's df issues started.

As for the forehand of Serena's, she can angle it at will, take the pace off, hit top spin, flatten it out.

All I've ever seen Maria do is hit it flat, flat, flat.

doomsday
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:27 PM
It's true. She isn't. Because if she was so mentally tough, she wouldn't be dfing at key moments in matches. Take, for example, her last match against Jelena. Maria was 4-1 up and up until that point her serve was working well. When Jelena started playing a bit better and started getting more balls back, Maria's df issues started.

As for the forehand of Serena's, she can angle it at will, take the pace off, hit top spin, flatten it out.

All I've ever seen Maria do is hit it flat, flat, flat.

Maria is not Venus :lol: when Maria won OZ 2008 you could see her using top spin on her FH, did you even watch her matches on clay this year especially during Rome :help:

VishaalMaria
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:28 PM
This is really stupid, Maria had plenty of matches in her hands despite Serena being the better player. I know Serena is a bad matchup for Maria she is a bad matchup for anyone but I just know it isn't as easy as you guys are saying.

Like what?

The only match is the AO 05 semi-final where Maria was close to winning it but Serena stepped it up.

The rest, where Maria has had set points (Charleston 08, Wimbledon 10) is not having a match "in your hands".

VishaalMaria
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:29 PM
Maria is not Venus :lol: when Maria won OZ 2008 you could see her using top spin on her FH, did you even watch her matches on clay this year especially during Rome :help:

Serena's forehand is better.

dsanders06
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:30 PM
Serena's forehand is more prone to breaking down than Maria's is. And Maria also hits her forehand "harder" on average. Serena might have more variety on that wing, but if variety was all that mattered then Schiavone would be #1.

atominside
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:31 PM
It's true. She isn't. Because if she was so mentally tough, she wouldn't be dfing at key moments in matches. Take, for example, her last match against Jelena. Maria was 4-1 up and up until that point her serve was working well. When Jelena started playing a bit better and started getting more balls back, Maria's df issues started.

As for the forehand of Serena's, she can angle it at will, take the pace off, hit top spin, flatten it out.

All I've ever seen Maria do is hit it flat, flat, flat.

If she wasnt mentally tough, she would have lost this match.

doomsday
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:32 PM
Like what?

The only match is the AO 05 semi-final where Maria was close to winning it but Serena stepped it up.

The rest, where Maria has had set points (Charleston 08, Wimbledon 10) is not having a match "in your hands".

Maria in Charleston lead 5/3 in the first set and had her sets points and then she served for the set, in the second one she lead 5/2 pretty quickly and had three sets points at 5/2 before choking but finally she closed it out at 5/4. So I say it again Maria had chances to win this match in straights on clay, Serena fought really hard and deserved to win but Maria could have won that match.

VishaalMaria
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:33 PM
Serena's forehand is more prone to breaking down than Maria's is. And Maria also hits her forehand "harder" on average. Serena might have more variety on that wing, but if variety was all that mattered then Schiavone would be #1.

Sometimes you need that variety to construct the point off your forehand. You should have seen the way Serena was using her forehand to win points at the AO 10.

it-girl
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:33 PM
I think this match was more of an accomplishment for Jelena and a concern for Maria. It was a horrible match on both sides of the net. Both players having serving issues throughout the match and so many breaks because of it. Jelena who has not been in form at all lately made it to a final after a long gap of being in one and Maria finally winning after so many final appearances. Jelena could have beat Maria, the only thing she was missing was the ability to constantly hit winners. A player with more weapons would have beat Maria the way she played in that final.

I think it is too premature to consider Maria so mentally tough again considering who she beat and how bad the match really was. Maria survived that match and towards the end got a lot of help from Jelena. The Us Open will be totally different though so only time will tell. But I think the only player with the real positives from this match going into the Us Open is Jelena. Because this is her best result in a while but Maria, still has a lot of work to do and fast if she wants to win at the Open & honestly I just don't see that happening. Her serve & movement are too much of a weakness now:shrug:

SAEKeithSerena
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:33 PM
i disagree. when maria can beat Serena, Kim, etc consistently i would agree. Jankovic is no longer a "top player."

VishaalMaria
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:35 PM
If she wasnt mentally tough, she would have lost this match.

Jankovic just flopped at the end with those two df's to gift the break.

I'm getting confidence and mental toughness mixed up.

madmax
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:36 PM
It's true. She isn't. Because if she was so mentally tough, she wouldn't be dfing at key moments in matches. Take, for example, her last match against Jelena. Maria was 4-1 up and up until that point her serve was working well. When Jelena started playing a bit better and started getting more balls back, Maria's df issues started.

As for the forehand of Serena's, she can angle it at will, take the pace off, hit top spin, flatten it out.

All I've ever seen Maria do is hit it flat, flat, flat.

LMAO what now?:lol:
So those high bouncing lasso forehands she was hitting during clay season looked like flat shots to you?...TF at it's finest here

VishaalMaria
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:39 PM
LMAO what now?:lol:
So those high bouncing lasso forehands she was hitting during clay season looked like flat shots to you?...TF at it's finest here

So I don't watch every match of Maria's! But when she needs to hit top spin on the forehand, or she could win the point by angling the forehand, she doesn't. Or rather can't.

And anyway, I still feel Serena's forehand is better. Because you need to be able to adapt. And Serena can do more things with that shot.

And TF at it's finest is when you called Serena an old dinosaur yet still schooled Maria 6-1 6-3. So much for an old dinosaur.

atominside
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:39 PM
Jankovic just flopped at the end with those two df's to gift the break.

I'm getting confidence and mental toughness mixed up.

What about maria serving to stay in the match twice in the 2nd set when she lost all those service games? She served her best games of the match there.

atominside
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:40 PM
And yes we know Serena is better than Maria, obviously..

doomsday
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:42 PM
So I don't watch every match of Maria's! But when she needs to hit top spin on the forehand, or she could win the point by angling the forehand, she doesn't. Or rather can't.

And anyway, I still feel Serena's forehand is better. Because you need to be able to adapt. And Serena can do more things with that shot.

She does it and more on clay but like you said you don't watch enough matches of her to know that.

bandabou
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:43 PM
:haha: Whatever you say.

Serena serves better and moves a lot better than Maria, I give Maria the edge for the forehand and backhand. Neither are particularly good at net.

If you're gonna give Maria the forehand..then you have to say that Serena serves a WHOLE lot better than Maria as well, no?!

tennisbum79
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:43 PM
I think this match was more of an accomplishment for Jelena and a concern for Maria. It was a horrible match on both sides of the net. Both players having serving issues throughout the match and so many breaks because of it. Jelena who has not been in form at all lately made it to a final after a long gap of being in one and Maria finally winning after so many final appearances. Jelena could have beat Maria, the only thing she was missing was the ability to constantly hit winners. A player with more weapons would have beat Maria the way she played in that final.




I agree int that, Maria's skills are rapidly diminishing or stale, especially the last few months, relying ever increasingly on her mental strength.

The bad news is, if this trends continues, not only she won't be able to beat the like of Serena or Kim or Venus, but the other player she is managing to beat will catch with her by outperforming her on the skill department.
It will reach a certain point too much depletion of her skills will put so much strain on her mental toughness that it might no longer be enough to puller through.



Has she lost this match on Sunday, that the question people would be asking.
With her diminishing/deteriorating skills, can mental toughness still put her through tough matches?
Asking the question is as uncomfortable as waitng for Maria's answer to it

VishaalMaria
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:45 PM
What about maria serving to stay in the match twince in the 2nd set when she lost all those service games? She served her best games of the match there.

It still depicts how much of a liability her serve is to be honest. She shouldn't have been in that position. Jelena played some error filled points too.

Ayumilover.
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:45 PM
What is the point of Maria hitting with topspin if she is winning titles like this? :shrug:

People think Serena is way better than Maria, but I disagree. I rather see Maria when the US Open than Serena and I think most people would agree.

VishaalMaria
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:46 PM
She does it and more on clay but like you said you don't watch enough matches of her to know that.

I watch the more important matches of hers, including the AO 4th round, the SF of RG and the F of Wimbledon. And she didn't change her forehand in any of them when she could have or should have.

In contrast to Serena who can change it up.

madmax
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:47 PM
I agree int that, Maria's skills are rapidly diminishing or stale, especially the last few months, relying ever increasingly on her mental strength.

The bad news is, if this trends continues, not only she won't be able to beat the like of Serena or Kim or Venus, but the other player she is managing to beat will catch with her by outperforming her on the skill department.
It will reach a certain point too much depletion of her skills will put so much strain on her mental toughness that it might no longer be enough to puller through.

Has she lost this match on Sunday, that the question people would be asking. Can mental toughness still put her through tough matches.

and yet with all "diminishing" skills she's still leader of the race with least amount of tourneys played and consistently grinds out younger opponents with her ground game...she better continue sucking then, as long as she wins them matches:lol:

bandabou
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:47 PM
This is really stupid, Maria had plenty of matches in her hands despite Serena being the better player. I know Serena is a bad matchup for Maria she is a bad matchup for anyone but I just know it isn't as easy as you guys are saying.

Plenty? Only one that was particularly close since '04 was the '05 Oz open, so I don't get how you come to plenty?! :shrug:

Maria's a good player, but you guys just have to face the facts and see what's in front of you: A Serena vs Maria match-up is a very very very bad prospect for Maria..because there's NOWHERE she has a clear advantage over Serena.

doesn't mean it's gonna be a double-bagel for Serena everytime, but the odds clearly in her favor. We'll see how it works out in the future.

VishaalMaria
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:49 PM
What is the point of Maria hitting with topspin if she is winning titles like this? :shrug:

People think Serena is way better than Maria, but I disagree. I rather see Maria when the US Open than Serena and I think most people would agree.

But it's not about winning titles like Cincinnati. It's about winning slams. I actually watched alot of French Open and Wimbledon and saw most of Maria's matches. Her forehand really isn't as good as Serena's. But that's subjective.

And you can think that if you wish. It's your perrogative, but fact's do not lie.

Ayumilover.
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:53 PM
But it's not about winning titles like Cincinnati. It's about winning slams. I actually watched alot of French Open and Wimbledon and saw most of Maria's matches. Her forehand really isn't as good as Serena's. But that's subjective.

And you can think that if you wish. It's your perrogative, but fact's do not lie.

I know that Serena has 13 slams to Maria's 3, but a lot of them were before Maria's time, and a couple when she was out. If Maria didn't have those shoulder problems, I'm sure she'd be at a couple more and in slam finals, they are 1-1.

Serenita
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:56 PM
If you're gonna give Maria the forehand..then you have to say that Serena serves a WHOLE lot better than Maria as well, no?!
Anyone with a reasonable judgement would never give Pova that FH. Not only does her technique stink up the place, her variety on the shot is just poor. We saw that FH breakdown yesterday.. it has a tendency to do that when under pressure. And pls dont even compare the serves.. no competition really. :shrug:

DOUBLEFIST
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:59 PM
and yet with all "diminishing" skills she's still leader of the race with least amount of tourneys played and consistently grinds out younger opponents with her ground game...she better continue sucking then, as long as she wins them matches:lol:
Sounds like you're describing Wozniacki. ...:tape: Poor Maria.

Anyway, anyone who going to approach this in an honest way has to acknowledge Maria's game is on a dangerous edge. It can either continue to devolve or she will find the keys to take it to the next level.

If she can continue to stabilize that serve, she will always be the "best of the rest." When Serena and Kim are officially gone, she should have her way with the tour. ...But she's running out of time.

VishaalMaria
Aug 22nd, 2011, 05:59 PM
I know that Serena has 13 slams to Maria's 3, but a lot of them were before Maria's time, and a couple when she was out. If Maria didn't have those shoulder problems, I'm sure she'd be at a couple more and in slam finals, they are 1-1.

So? Maria wasn't the only one that was out. Serena was out from mid 2003 till March 2004. She was then out for the majority of 2006. She was out from July 2010 till June 2011.

Serena had plenty more chances to win slams if she wasn't unhealthy or fit or had issues. So it's not as if Maria has lost out on slam opportunity. In fact, if Serena hadn't had knee surgery in 2003 she would have been a shoe in for the US Open or at least would have been in the top three or two. It's the same for 2010, if Serena hadn't stepped on that glass she would have been the favourite of the AO and most definitely Wimbledon.

And if it's not the slams, it's the head to head which Serena leads in. What else is there to determine who the better player is? Serena leads emphatically in both.

Please. Just take your meds already.

tennisbum79
Aug 22nd, 2011, 06:05 PM
I know that Serena has 13 slams to Maria's 3, but a lot of them were before Maria's time, and a couple when she was out. If Maria didn't have those shoulder problems, I'm sure she'd be at a couple more and in slam finals, they are 1-1.
13-3 is a lot. But before even getting there, you have to do, 7-3 is which still a lot.
Maria won her GS in 2004, how many has she won since then, how many has Serena won.

I get the sense, that the strategy of some Maria fans of having debate Maria - Serena is designed to enhance Maria's standing.

Maria should be compared to people she has comparable record with in GS and H2H with , but for some reason the Maria fans think she deserves more than
Davenport, Kim, Kuzzy



You know how they show list of GS winners of the past and now.
It is not in alphabetical order, it is in descending order, and the listing is usually just one page, I have never seen Maria name there.

The current player have done something significant, tie or pass someone already on the list, accomplish some other milestone worthy of mention, such as having won a all 4 GS

Ayumilover.
Aug 22nd, 2011, 06:06 PM
So? Maria wasn't the only one that was out. Serena was out from mid 2003 till March 2004. She was then out for the majority of 2006. She was out from July 2010 till June 2011.

Serena had plenty more chances to win slams if she wasn't unhealthy or fit or had issues. So it's not as if Maria has lost out on slam opportunity. In fact, if Serena hadn't had knee surgery in 2003 she would have been a shoe in for the US Open or at least would have been in the top three or two. It's the same for 2010, if Serena hadn't stepped on that glass she would have been the favourite of the AO and most definitely Wimbledon.

And if it's not the slams, it's the head to head which Serena leads in. What else is there to determine who the better player is? Serena leads emphatically in both.

Please. Just take your meds already.

bolded part is lame to say.

Serena's injuries never hindered her performances though at the big stage until this past Wimbledon, unlike for Maria. The first tournament where Maria was really back was the French, and she was never going to beat a peak Li Na(who also can beat Serena), and the next one she made the finals of Wimbledon where she played well to win 6 matches. I'm not saying Maria is a greater player, but there is a reason she is the highest paid athlete in the world, and a reason why everyone cheers for her wherever she is. You can't say the same for Serena. Plus, I think Maria is just a much more honest, genuine person.

L'Enfant Sauvage
Aug 22nd, 2011, 06:07 PM
Plus even eliminating the slams that came "before her time" Serena still has 8. Moritamania/Ayumilover, do not try it.

madmax
Aug 22nd, 2011, 06:08 PM
Sounds like you're describing Wozniacki. ...:tape: Poor Maria.

Anyway, anyone who going to approach this in an honest way has to acknowledge Maria's game is on a dangerous edge. It can either continue to devolve or she will find the keys to take it to the next level.

If she can continue to stabilize that serve, she will always be the "best of the rest." When Serena and Kim are officially gone, she should have her way with the tour. ...But she's running out of time.

:facepalm:
How am I describing Wozniacki here?
Maria doesn't need to hog millions of events to pad her ranking - she always plays 13-14 events every year and it is a testament to her quality that she still manages to win so much with her serve issues. And I saw plenty of good signs regarding her serve this week - she was regularly hitting in 108-110 mph range and her trademark down the T serve was making it's cameo appearance too. She's obviously still not in her best shape and I expect further improvements during first week of US Open.

Ayumilover.
Aug 22nd, 2011, 06:09 PM
13-3 is a lot. But before even getting there, you have to do, 7-3 is which still a lot.
Maria won her GS in 2004, how many has she won since then, how many has Serena won.

I get the sense, that the strategy of some Maria fans of having debate Maria - Serena debate is designed to enhance Maria's standing.

Maria should be compared to people she has comparable record with in GS and H2H with , but some reason the Maria fan thinks she deserves more.
Davenport, Kim, Nastya

The thing is, is that it is tough to compare anyone to Serena because even with Henin or Venus, she is still obviously greater in terms of success.

Maria is more comparable to the ones you mentioned, but there's something about Sharapova that makes a person that maybe isn't even a big fan such as me just go, wow.

L'Enfant Sauvage
Aug 22nd, 2011, 06:10 PM
bolded part is lame to say.

Serena's injuries never hindered her performances though at the big stage until this past Wimbledon, unlike for Maria. The first tournament where Maria was really back was the French, and she was never going to beat a peak Li Na(who also can beat Serena), and the next one she made the finals of Wimbledon where she played well to win 6 matches. I'm not saying Maria is a greater player, but there is a reason she is the highest paid athlete in the world, and a reason why everyone cheers for her wherever she is. You can't say the same for Serena. Plus, I think Maria is just a much more honest, genuine person.

This should be enough to tech people not to respond to you, as you're clearly biased, have your own agenda, and just aren't that bright :aww: :hug:

Ayumilover.
Aug 22nd, 2011, 06:14 PM
This should be enough to tech people not to respond to you, as you're clearly biased, have your own agenda, and just aren't that bright :aww: :hug:

i appreciate the kind words, but i think if you were a neutral when comparing these two, you are the one that looks absurd. Give me an example of where Serena wasn't at her best at a slam because of injuries apart from the past one...I'll give you US Open 06 and whichever one she lost to Capriati from the line calls but those were not given's either. If i was biased, i'd have maria in my signature, and be going to her thread - which i don't

just because someone has a different opinion from your own, that doesn't make them an idiot.

and as for Li, she already has beaten Serena. Your the biased one for saying it's absurd to think Li can beat Williams

tennisbum79
Aug 22nd, 2011, 06:17 PM
The thing is, is that it is tough to compare anyone to Serena because even with Henin or Venus, she is still obviously greater in terms of success.

Maria is more comparable to the ones you mentioned, but there's something about Sharapova that makes a person that maybe isn't even a big fan such as me just go, wow.
It is tough because it does not make sense. That is it.

It also does not make sense to compare Maria to Justine and Venus.



As to the spell has Maria has on you, that is personal thing and I respect that; but that should never be a factor in respectable discussion about accomplishments

Ayumilover.
Aug 22nd, 2011, 06:21 PM
It is tough because it does not make sense. That is t.

I also does not make sense to compare Maria to Justine and Venus.



As to the spell has Maria has on you, that is personal thing and I respect that; but that should never be a factor in respectable discussion about accomplishments

But really, amongst active players excluding Venus, who else is there to compare with Serena?

And it's not a spell, it's just that confidence and marketability that Maria carries that makes it tough not to have a lot of respect for her.

tennisbum79
Aug 22nd, 2011, 06:22 PM
But really, amongst active players excluding Venus, who else is there to compare with Serena?
I f there is no reason to make a comparison, why attempt one?

Sure, you cam make selective comparisons on some skills, but the conclusion should never be an overreach as often is the case.


If Sharpova is better than Serena in one aspect of the game, which itself is highly debatable, you cannot deduce from that Maria is better than Serena.

vozas
Aug 22nd, 2011, 06:22 PM
What is this mess here?

I love Maria, she's my favorite, but I love Serena as well. Everyone knows she's a terrible match for Maria because she is one of the best players of all time. She is a bad match up for everyone on the tour.

And why does Fiona keep getting mentioned? :help: Maria would blow her off the court nowadays.

People just need to take in consideration that no one is up there with Serena, and none of us Maria fans believe that. But Maria will go down as one of the greatest players. She left a mark in the sport, is a prime example of competitiveness, discipline and mental strength, and has won a slew of major titles.

And Serena obviously has the better FH :facepalm: can't believe we're arguing this. Maria's FH is better than it was last year but her timing is all over the place on that wing. Her BH though is probably the best on tour. Definitely better than Serena's (which is great too).

vozas
Aug 22nd, 2011, 06:24 PM
Kim, Nastya

:help:

Which Nastya are you talking about?

And Kim is in the same tier as Sharapova. Longer career, that's all. Her 2009 USO and 2011 AO are well documented Fluke Slams.

L'Enfant Sauvage
Aug 22nd, 2011, 06:25 PM
i appreciate the kind words, but i think if you were a neutral when comparing these two, you are the one that looks absurd. Give me an example of where Serena wasn't at her best at a slam because of injuries apart from the past one...I'll give you US Open 06 and whichever one she lost to Capriati from the line calls but those were not given's either. If i was biased, i'd have maria in my signature, and be going to her thread - which i don't

A) For one thing she COMPLETELY missed 03 USO, 04 AO, 2010 USO and 2011 Ao, all four slams she would have been the overwhelming favorite to win. She was a favorite for 2004 US Open when she was cheated out of that match, but not nearly as much as the previous four. 2005 and 2006 she was out of shape and depressed and looked to be on the verge of retirement as her fitness hit an all time low, causing her to fall out of the top 80 by January.

Of COURSE Maria had her struggles too, but you're making it seem as though she's the one whose had it worse when even in her prime years of 04-08 she only won one slam every two years. Without the shoulder injury I'd put her at about 5-6, but that's nothing comparing to missing two slams entirely, on your BEST SURFACE(hardcourts) when you were the dominant number one and heavily favored to WIN those slams. prior to the 03 USO-04 AO Serena had won 5 of the last 6 slams, and prior to the 2010 USO-2011 AO she had won 5 of 8.

B) Regarding one of the other statements I disagreed with, peak Li Na would not beat peak Serena, or even Serena playing relatively well, at least not in a slam. Only a diehard fan of Na's would even suggest that.

C) No shade to Maria, but you know damn well she's the highest paid female athletes off of ENDORSEMENTS and MODELING because she is a 6 ft tall long-legged beautiful blond.

atominside
Aug 22nd, 2011, 06:26 PM
:help:

Which Nastya are you talking about?

And Kim is in the same tier as Sharapova. Longer career, that's all. Her 2009 USO and 2011 AO are well documented Fluke Slams.

Peak Maria thrashes Peak Kim. Too bad they never met at their Peaks :( i like kim though.

tennisbum79
Aug 22nd, 2011, 06:33 PM
:help:

Which Nastya are you talking about?

And Kim is in the same tier as Sharapova. Longer career, that's all. Her 2009 USO and 2011 AO are well documented Fluke Slams.

I meant Svetlana Kuznetsova, NOT Anastasia Myskina

Monzanator
Aug 22nd, 2011, 06:38 PM
This thread has gone AWOL since page 3 :tape: Usual ramblings on Serena vs Maria, Venus vs Maria with honourable Wozniacki & Clijsters mentions :worship: And people keep asking why Jankovic has became irrelevant in recent months :happy:

atominside
Aug 22nd, 2011, 06:40 PM
I meant Svetlana Kuznetsova, NOT Anastasia Myskina

:haha:

Ayumilover.
Aug 22nd, 2011, 06:45 PM
A) For one thing she COMPLETELY missed 03 USO, 04 AO, 2010 USO and 2011 Ao, all four slams she would have been the overwhelming favorite to win. She was a favorite for 2004 US Open when she was cheated out of that match, but not nearly as much as the previous four. 2005 and 2006 she was out of shape and depressed and looked to be on the verge of retirement as her fitness hit an all time low, causing her to fall out of the top 80 by January.

Of COURSE Maria had her struggles too, but you're making it seem as though she's the one whose had it worse when even in her prime years of 04-08 she only won one slam every two years. Without the shoulder injury I'd put her at about 5-6, but that's nothing comparing to missing two slams entirely, on your BEST SURFACE(hardcourts) when you were the dominant number one and heavily favored to WIN those slams. prior to the 03 USO-04 AO Serena had won 5 of the last 6 slams, and prior to the 2010 USO-2011 AO she had won 5 of 8.

B) Regarding one of the other statements I disagreed with, peak Li Na would not beat peak Serena, or even Serena playing relatively well, at least not in a slam. Only a diehard fan of Na's would even suggest that.

C) No shade to Maria, but you know damn well she's the highest paid female athletes off of ENDORSEMENTS and MODELING because she is a 6 ft tall long-legged beautiful blond.

Then call me a diehard Na fan any day and I would take it as a compliment. If you are so sure peak Serena would beat peak Na over and over again, it would be nice to see them square of at the Open this year. Li gave Serena arguably her two toughest matches at the Opens that she won last year. Li is better now.

About C, yes exactly, that is my point. Is it illegal to like that? You know, there are many posters that actually think the some of the players are hot.

The last couple of years should have been Maria's prime years, but they weren't due to her injury. As for the tournament you mentioned serena missed, i was referring to the Slams that they played, but weren't at their best.

Ayumilover.
Aug 22nd, 2011, 06:48 PM
I f there is no reason to make a comparison, why attempt one?

Sure, you cam make selective comparisons on some skills, but the conclusion should never be an overreach as often is the case.


If Sharpova is better than Serena in one aspect of the game, which itself is highly debatable, you not deduce form that Maria is better than Serena.

Well, we both know that I didn't start these comparisons and was just adding on, but people bash Maria all the time and it's one thing to hate when people bash Jules or Ayumi since i'm a big fan for them, but when I see Maria being bashed as a neutral fan, I also think it's abusrd

Aaron.
Aug 22nd, 2011, 06:50 PM
So? Maria wasn't the only one that was out. Serena was out from mid 2003 till March 2004. She was then out for the majority of 2006. She was out from July 2010 till June 2011.

Serena had plenty more chances to win slams if she wasn't unhealthy or fit or had issues. So it's not as if Maria has lost out on slam opportunity. In fact, if Serena hadn't had knee surgery in 2003 she would have been a shoe in for the US Open or at least would have been in the top three or two. It's the same for 2010, if Serena hadn't stepped on that glass she would have been the favourite of the AO and most definitely Wimbledon.

And if it's not the slams, it's the head to head which Serena leads in. What else is there to determine who the better player is? Serena leads emphatically in both.

Please. Just take your meds already.

Seriously :lol:

This should be enough to tech people not to respond to you, as you're clearly biased, have your own agenda, and just aren't that bright :aww: :hug: This, This and This. :tape:

It is tough because it does not make sense. That is it.

I also does not make sense to compare Maria to Justine and Venus.



As to the spell has Maria has on you, that is personal thing and I respect that; but that should never be a factor in respectable discussion about accomplishments I love you :hearts:

Then call me a diehard Na fan any day and I would take it as a compliment. If you are so sure peak Serena would beat peak Na over and over again, it would be nice to see them square of at the Open this year. Li gave Serena arguably her two toughest matches at the Opens that she won last year. Li is better now.

About C, yes exactly, that is my point. Is it illegal to like that? You know, there are many posters that actually think the some of the players are hot.

The last couple of years should have been Maria's prime years, but they weren't due to her injury. As for the tournament you mentioned serena missed, i was referring to the Slams that they played, but weren't at their best. Li lost to Stosur twice in a row who Serena beat handily..Li is still inconsistent.

vozas
Aug 22nd, 2011, 06:51 PM
http://i.imgur.com/I3N9j.gif

tennisbum79
Aug 22nd, 2011, 06:52 PM
Well, we both know that I didn't start these comparisons and was just adding on, but people bash Maria all the time and it's one thing to hate when people bash Jules or Ayumi since i'm a big fan for them, but when I see Maria being bashed as a neutral fan, I also think it's abusrd
I do not condone bashing anyone, but trying to rebuttal with nonsensical comparison is not effective either.
It show a sign of desperation, as if you were conceding to the very people you accuse of making hateful statements against Maria

Aaron.
Aug 22nd, 2011, 06:54 PM
I do not condone bashing anyone, but trying to rebuttal with nonsensical comparison is not effective either.
It show a sign of desperation, as if you were conceding to the very people you accuse of making hateful statements against Maria I love how everytime he/she starts shit he tries to act like the victim. Ain't nobody falling for that shit :lol: take that somewhere else

L'Enfant Sauvage
Aug 22nd, 2011, 06:56 PM
Then call me a diehard Na fan any day and I would take it as a compliment. If you are so sure peak Serena would beat peak Na over and over again, it would be nice to see them square of at the Open this year. Li gave Serena arguably her two toughest matches at the Opens that she won last year. Li is better now.

About C, yes exactly, that is my point. Is it illegal to like that? You know, there are many posters that actually think the some of the players are hot.

The last couple of years should have been Maria's prime years, but they weren't due to her injury. As for the tournament you mentioned serena missed, i was referring to the Slams that they played, but weren't at their best.

The funny thing is I doubt we will be seeing peak Serena any time soon. Maybe Na has improved since last year... Or maybe Serena just wan't here to stop her. I mean hey, Serena was the one who prevented her from getting to the finals of 2010 AO, 2010 Wimb and I believe 2008 Wimb as well. 2008 Wimb she would not have won, but against a rusty Justine in @ the AO she may have, and she would have been GUARANTEED to beat Vera at 2010 Wimbledon. Just because she's made a final and got a win while Serena was gone does not mean she has improved much or at all. And Serena has regressed since then, so if Na does win it definitely won't be against Serena at her peak.

You're free to like Maria for whatever reason you want, but liking her for her fame/endorsements/looks seems very shallow to me. I'm a fan of her FYI, but solely for her game.

I don't see why slams played in poor form and slams missed in great form should be valued differently, they're both missed opportunities. If anything it's missing the slams entirely that's more devastating to a player. And anyway, I gave you a bunch of slams Serena played in poor form, 05 French through 06 US Open. Probably even 05 and 07 AO, which she won on willpower alone.

pav
Aug 22nd, 2011, 07:00 PM
You would think going by the thread title that Jankovic was the best, highest ranked player Shara has had a win over for a long time!

dragonflies
Aug 22nd, 2011, 07:02 PM
This thread has gone AWOL since page 3 :tape: Usual ramblings on Serena vs Maria, Venus vs Maria with honourable Wozniacki & Clijsters mentions :worship: And people keep asking why Jankovic has became irrelevant in recent months :happy:




:lol: spot on

I'm not going to discuss Serena, Maria, Kim, Venus, Caro b/c it will draw unnecessary tired battles which are not uncommon
on TF. This thread is about Jelena and Maria, but Jelena is nowhere to be found.

Maria indeed has a metal edge over many players on the tour thanks to her fighting spirit, but she was going to win the Cinci
final anyway. Jelena is not as good as she was a few years ago and she is not back. Her level of play was so bad throughout
the tournie and unless she dramatiscally improve her form, it's unlikely she is going far at the US Open.

acetoace
Aug 22nd, 2011, 07:07 PM
What is the point of Maria hitting with topspin if she is winning titles like this? :shrug:

People think Serena is way better than Maria, but I disagree. I rather see Maria when the US Open than Serena and I think most people would agree.


Wishful thinking ain't no crime......dream on!!!:lol:

spencercarlos
Aug 22nd, 2011, 07:11 PM
I find it odd that certain people think the Serena-Sharapova head-to-head is conclusive, yet that inspite of Sharapova beating Venus in all but one of their non-Wimbledon meetings, peak Venus would still apparently slay peak Maria on hardcourts :scratch:

The fact is that Serena is a very bad match-up for Maria because Maria's biggest weapon (mental toughness) is nullified by Serena being even greater in that department, as their head-to-head shows... and likewise, Maria is better than Venus away from grass, as THEIR head-to-head shows.
Sharapova won the first couple of meetings at a time Venus was on a visibly slump, even on a year she was titleless on hardcourts if i remmember well 2004 and 2005.

Since their 3rd match, Venus is 3-1 vs Sharapova, winning her matches in straight sets, and her loss was a 7-5 in the third set defeat.. Their last match in 2009 was a 6-2 6-2 win from Venus in Standford.

Lucemferre
Aug 22nd, 2011, 07:11 PM
Jankovic is not a champion. She just freezes when she is close to winning something big if the other player isn't giving it to her.I wasn't surprised that she lost. Sharapova was too determined not to lose and she didn't. Some things can't be taught.

tennisbum79
Aug 22nd, 2011, 07:15 PM
:lol: spot on

I'm not going to discuss Serena, Maria, Kim, Venus, Caro b/c it will draw unnecessary tired battles which are not uncommon
on TF. This thread is about Jelena and Maria, but Jelena is nowhere to be found..
Good point.
But since I was in discussion when the thread degenerated to include other players than Sharapova-Jankovic, I will give my reason for join in.


My joining was partly to STRONGLY object the Serena-Maria comparison NOTION, not only because I find comparison it uninformative and misguided, but moreover, it has become strategy for some Maria fan to somehow elevate Maria stature by going through this exercise.
That Maria, despite her spotty performance against second tier players , can still be credibly compared the Serena is a testament that she still belongs to the elite.


But thank you for bringing the discussion back to the original topic

dragonflies
Aug 22nd, 2011, 07:22 PM
What is the point of Maria hitting with topspin if she is winning titles like this? :shrug:

People think Serena is way better than Maria, but I disagree. I rather see Maria when the US Open than Serena and I think most people would agree.



So you disagree with people that said Serena is better than Maria b/c you prefer to see Maria over Serena at the Open?

Based on what you think most people think like you do and how that proves your point of disagreement?

L'Enfant Sauvage
Aug 22nd, 2011, 07:36 PM
I don't know what happened on the tour really before 2006, but in 2007 when Serena won, she was still in good enough form. And i'm really not a fan of her, I just have a lot of respect for how she carries herself on and off-court

Well I'm letting you know what happened; 05 French she missed due to an ankle injury in her last match, a 2R loss to Schiavone. 05 Wimbledon she was in the worst physical shape of her entire career, losing to World #85 Jill Craybas in straight sets in the third round. 05 US Open she lost 4R, the only match she played for the rest of the year was a 1st round loss to #127 Sun Tian Tian in Beijing. 06 AO, fell in the 3rd round in straight sets to Hantuchova, who was a MARGINAL top 20 player at the time. By the french open, Serena was outside of the Top 100. She entered the US Open ranked World #139 before losing to Mauresmo in the 4r. So yeah, now you know. She played slams in pretty damn poor form as well.

Furthermore in AO 07 she was not in good form AT ALL, except for in the final, which marker her RETURN to the tour. She was still overweight and relied on willpower and frightening MENTAL STRENGTH to avoid losing to Petrova who was on the brink of victory against her in the third round, and against Shahar Peer I believe in the QF(?) where Peer was exactly TWO points away from defeating Serena. In a slam. This is not good form.

dragonflies
Aug 22nd, 2011, 07:38 PM
This should be enough to tech people not to respond to you, as you're clearly biased, have your own agenda, and just aren't that bright :aww: :hug:




yeah, s/he indeed isn't

It's appeared that s/he is relatively young, willing to say anything regardless how it might sound and has seriously reading
comprehension issues. It's useless to even debate anything with him/her.

Ayumilover.
Aug 22nd, 2011, 07:43 PM
Well I'm letting you know what happened; 05 French she missed due to an ankle injury in her last match, a 2R loss to Schiavone. 05 Wimbledon she was in the worst physical shape of her entire career, losing to World #85 Jill Craybas in straight sets in the third round. 05 US Open she lost 4R, the only match she played for the rest of the year was a 1st round loss to #127 Sun Tian Tian in Beijing. 06 AO, fell in the 3rd round in straight sets to Hantuchova, who was a MARGINAL top 20 player at the time. By the french open, Serena was outside of the Top 100. She entered the US Open ranked World #139 before losing to Mauresmo in the 4r. So yeah, now you know. She played slams in pretty damn poor form as well.

All i remember was watching Hantuchova beat her on ESPN2 and being surprised but I didn't know much about tennis until the next season and Daniela was really making a name for herself. She had that white/yellow nike dress that was a big hit and she won IW.

but anyways, so it seems that they both had struggles in their early twenties. But Maria is 5 years younger so I don't know what could happen. I'm not really a big Maria fan or anything so I'm going to make this the last post for this thread, the insight was nice to see so thanks.

But as I said in my first post in this thread, since Maria's ballbashing worked this week, she'll have more confidence now and be tough to crack.

dsanders06
Aug 22nd, 2011, 07:43 PM
Anyone with a reasonable judgement would never give Pova that FH. Not only does her technique stink up the place, her variety on the shot is just poor. We saw that FH breakdown yesterday.. it has a tendency to do that when under pressure. And pls dont even compare the serves.. no competition really. :shrug:

:lol: I'm sorry, but no. Maria's forehand is clearly more technically sound than Serena's - and that's why it's SERENA whose forehand is more likely to break down under pressure (see her Wimbledon semifinal against Dementieva), not Maria's - though Serena's isn't as prone to breaking down as Venus's.

Sharapova won the first couple of meetings at a time Venus was on a visibly slump, even on a year she was titleless on hardcourts if i remmember well 2004 and 2005.

Since their 3rd match, Venus is 3-1 vs Sharapova, winning her matches in straight sets, and her loss was a 7-5 in the third set defeat.. Their last match in 2009 was a 6-2 6-2 win from Venus in Standford.

Miami 2005 was one of Venus's best hardcourt tournaments in the past 8 years, as she beat Serena for the first time in years there ... yet Maria still beat her easily there.

One thing's for sure, Venus was certainly a lot closer to her peak form in Miami 2005 than Maria was at Stanford 2009, when she was a couple of months back from injury and was ranked #60.

tennisbum79
Aug 22nd, 2011, 07:47 PM
I'm not sure what you are trying to get at. You probably didn't understand what I was saying, but to sum it up, i was saying that even posters who aren't fans of Maria think that the bashing of her is kind of silly. Serena fans right away then play the comparison card because they know Maria doesn't have much on Serena when it comes to slams, but that doesn't mean Maria can't beat serena at a slam still.
I too think bashing anyone, including Maria is silly.

I will just leave it to this point of agreement and suspend the Maria-Serena dicussion.
I have already said all I needed to say on the topic

L'Enfant Sauvage
Aug 22nd, 2011, 07:49 PM
:lol: I'm sorry, but no. Maria's forehand is clearly more technically sound than Serena's - and that's why it's SERENA whose forehand is more likely to break down under pressure (see her Wimbledon semifinal against Dementieva), not Maria's - though Serena's isn't as prone to breaking down as Venus's.



Miami 2005 was one of Venus's best hardcourt tournaments in the past 8 years, as she beat Serena for the first time in years there ... yet Maria still beat her easily there.

One thing's for sure, Venus was certainly a lot closer to her peak form in Miami 2005 than Maria was at Stanford 2009, when she was a couple of months back from injury and was ranked #60.

:lol: Don't even try it, using Serena's name for that nonsense. Serena was fat and a shitty player from 05-06, not reaching a single final of any kind(Slam, T1, T2, ITF, anything) from January 2005 until 2007 and I know you knew that.

laurie
Aug 22nd, 2011, 07:52 PM
Watching the final last night, I got the feeling that Jankovic had difficulty overcoming her own mental frailties in closing out a final or a big match. The same thing happened in the Monterrey final a few months ago if I remember. I don't think it had anything to do with Sharapova yesterday, Jankovic was her own worst enemy in a winning position.

dsanders06
Aug 22nd, 2011, 07:53 PM
:lol: Don't even try it, using Serena's name for that nonsense. Serena was fat and a shitty player from 05-06, not reaching a single final of any kind(Slam, T1, T2, ITF, anything) from January 2005 until 2007 and I know you knew that.

In early 2005, she'd just won a Grand Slam title, and Miami was like the fifth straight tournament that she'd made the QFs at. She went into a major slump during the claycourt season which persisted after that, but at that particular point in time, everyone still thought Serena was in-form. And in any case, in the context of their rivalry, Venus getting her first win over Serena in 4 years would've been a MAJOR confidence boost... but she still lost to Maria.

bandabou
Aug 22nd, 2011, 08:08 PM
bolded part is lame to say.

Serena's injuries never hindered her performances though at the big stage until this past Wimbledon, unlike for Maria. The first tournament where Maria was really back was the French, and she was never going to beat a peak Li Na(who also can beat Serena), and the next one she made the finals of Wimbledon where she played well to win 6 matches. I'm not saying Maria is a greater player, but there is a reason she is the highest paid athlete in the world, and a reason why everyone cheers for her wherever she is. You can't say the same for Serena. Plus, I think Maria is just a much more honest, genuine person.

:facepalm: What's the reason, einstein?! Tell us. :rolleyes:

L'Enfant Sauvage
Aug 22nd, 2011, 08:08 PM
In early 2005, she'd just won a Grand Slam title, and Miami was like the fifth straight tournament that she'd made the QFs at. She went into a major slump during the claycourt season which persisted after that, but at that particular point in time, everyone still thought Serena was in-form. And in any case, in the context of their rivalry, Venus getting her first win over Serena in 4 years would've been a MAJOR confidence boost... but she still lost to Maria.

After narrowly winning the Australian she made the quarters in Paris Indoors, withdrew with a tummyache. Then she made the semis in Dubai, withdrew with a shoulder injury, before playing Miami a full month later. Regardless of what everyone THOUGHT, looking back it's clear that her slump had already begun, the lack of interest/commitment to the tour being the first of many things contributing to her ranking eventually falling to World #139.

And besides, what does beating Serena have to do with beating Maria again? They are two totally different players and require two totally different approaches to get the win. Factor in that 05 was Serena's second worst year on tour, or at the very least her second worst since winning her first slam in 1999, as well as 05 being smack dab in the middle of Maria's prime years of 04-08, and a year in which she only lost at the QFs or beyond TO THE EVENTUAL CHAMPION of each slam, and they suddenly become two totally different tasks.

bandabou
Aug 22nd, 2011, 08:12 PM
The thing is, is that it is tough to compare anyone to Serena because even with Henin or Venus, she is still obviously greater in terms of success.

Maria is more comparable to the ones you mentioned, but there's something about Sharapova that makes a person that maybe isn't even a big fan such as me just go, wow.

You got it right..NOBODY currently playing compares to Serena, so you should stop trying to compare anybody to her.
Maria's good, but she's more in the Linds/Hingis category.

bandabou
Aug 22nd, 2011, 08:15 PM
i appreciate the kind words, but i think if you were a neutral when comparing these two, you are the one that looks absurd. Give me an example of where Serena wasn't at her best at a slam because of injuries apart from the past one...I'll give you US Open 06 and whichever one she lost to Capriati from the line calls but those were not given's either. If i was biased, i'd have maria in my signature, and be going to her thread - which i don't

just because someone has a different opinion from your own, that doesn't make them an idiot.

and as for Li, she already has beaten Serena. Your the biased one for saying it's absurd to think Li can beat Williams

You're just sounding like you're dummy right now. Serena MISSED out on majors totally in her PRIME..'03 u.s. open, '04 oz open at a time where she was pretty much unbeatable. She missed out the '10 u.s. open, '11 oz open and heck even '1 wimbledon clearly hampered by just coming back. What majors has Sharapova MISSED?! If you play, you're healthy..don't come crying that you lost.

And Li?! Who's Li? Serena beat her twice at majors last year in straight sets. What r you talking about?

bandabou
Aug 22nd, 2011, 08:20 PM
A) For one thing she COMPLETELY missed 03 USO, 04 AO, 2010 USO and 2011 Ao, all four slams she would have been the overwhelming favorite to win. She was a favorite for 2004 US Open when she was cheated out of that match, but not nearly as much as the previous four. 2005 and 2006 she was out of shape and depressed and looked to be on the verge of retirement as her fitness hit an all time low, causing her to fall out of the top 80 by January.

Of COURSE Maria had her struggles too, but you're making it seem as though she's the one whose had it worse when even in her prime years of 04-08 she only won one slam every two years. Without the shoulder injury I'd put her at about 5-6, but that's nothing comparing to missing two slams entirely, on your BEST SURFACE(hardcourts) when you were the dominant number one and heavily favored to WIN those slams. prior to the 03 USO-04 AO Serena had won 5 of the last 6 slams, and prior to the 2010 USO-2011 AO she had won 5 of 8.

B) Regarding one of the other statements I disagreed with, peak Li Na would not beat peak Serena, or even Serena playing relatively well, at least not in a slam. Only a diehard fan of Na's would even suggest that.

C) No shade to Maria, but you know damn well she's the highest paid female athletes off of ENDORSEMENTS and MODELING because she is a 6 ft tall long-legged beautiful blond.

Thank you...man, these Masha-fans sometimes. :lol:

bandabou
Aug 22nd, 2011, 08:24 PM
Then call me a diehard Na fan any day and I would take it as a compliment. If you are so sure peak Serena would beat peak Na over and over again, it would be nice to see them square of at the Open this year. Li gave Serena arguably her two toughest matches at the Opens that she won last year. Li is better now.

About C, yes exactly, that is my point. Is it illegal to like that? You know, there are many posters that actually think the some of the players are hot.

The last couple of years should have been Maria's prime years, but they weren't due to her injury. As for the tournament you mentioned serena missed, i was referring to the Slams that they played, but weren't at their best.

:lol: Beating Maria has NO bearings if a player is gonna beat Serena. You crazy or what? :lol:

Injuries happen to everybody..so now you're discounting the majors Serena missed due to the injury? :rolls: Come on, man! What's going on here?

vozas
Aug 22nd, 2011, 08:29 PM
I can't at the mess in this thread... Give it up guys. Everyone knows Serena is the GOAT.

Case closed.

JJ all the way
Aug 22nd, 2011, 08:36 PM
Haha this thread is as crazy as the Maria-JJ match....how did Wozniaki and Serena end up in this thread? lol

dsanders06
Aug 22nd, 2011, 08:37 PM
After narrowly winning the Australian she made the quarters in Paris Indoors, withdrew with a tummyache. Then she made the semis in Dubai, withdrew with a shoulder injury, before playing Miami a full month later. Regardless of what everyone THOUGHT, looking back it's clear that her slump had already begun, the lack of interest/commitment to the tour being the first of many things contributing to her ranking eventually falling to World #139.

And besides, what does beating Serena have to do with beating Maria again? They are two totally different players and require two totally different approaches to get the win. Factor in that 05 was Serena's second worst year on tour, or at the very least her second worst since winning her first slam in 1999, as well as 05 being smack dab in the middle of Maria's prime years of 04-08, and a year in which she only lost at the QFs or beyond TO THE EVENTUAL CHAMPION of each slam, and they suddenly become two totally different tasks.

My point is, Veerror and Spencercarlos were claiming that Maria has only ever beaten Venus when she's "slumping". But when Maria beat her at Miami 2005, Venus was having one of her best hardcourt tournaments since 2003 - semis at a Tier 1 having beaten Serena for the first time in 4 years. She hasn't had many tournaments outside of Wimbledon as good as that in the past 8 years... and it's certainly a lot closer to her peak than Maria was when she played Venus at Stanford 2009, which is supposedly proof of Venus's superiority.

Stonerpova
Aug 22nd, 2011, 09:02 PM
given that i so often point out the hottness in Julia, and said in this thread that I think Maria is pretty sexy too, i think you can infer that i'm a guy thanks. And to a serena fan, it may sound dumb, but to a maria fan or anyone else that is neutral, it makes sense.

Nope. I'm as big a Maria fan as you'll find here, and you're coming off bat shit crazy :hug:

VishaalMaria
Aug 22nd, 2011, 09:46 PM
My point is, Veerror and Spencercarlos were claiming that Maria has only ever beaten Venus when she's "slumping". But when Maria beat her at Miami 2005, Venus was having one of her best hardcourt tournaments since 2003 - semis at a Tier 1 having beaten Serena for the first time in 4 years. She hasn't had many tournaments outside of Wimbledon as good as that in the past 8 years... and it's certainly a lot closer to her peak than Maria was when she played Venus at Stanford 2009, which is supposedly proof of Venus's superiority.

The head to head is 3-3. Venus has won the last two, one one grass and the other on hardcourt. And she's won those easily losing no more than 4 games. Before that, Venus broke the "streak" and finally won a set off Maria on hardcourt and was close to winning in Miami 07. And that was when she had come back from a 7 month hiatus whereas Maria had come from a slam final. Up until that point, Venus had only played five events starting from Warsaw 2006 (and only three hardcourt matches in the year). Whereas for Maria, that was one of Maria's best hardcourt periods in her entire career after winning the US Open and then making the AO final. So that's closer to Peak Maria than 2005 or 2004 is on hardcourts (according to your result based logic i.e. Venus made the f of miami etc). Those are facts. And on the basis of facts, I think we all know what's happening with that head to head but Venus just needs to play more and have opportunity to face Maria.

Maria hasn't improved, she's still that df machine as evidenced by her 13dfs against Jankovic. She was playing those types of matches before facing Vee in 09 and still lost 6-2 6-2. So really, nothings improved including those patches of brilliance for Maria.


Now, I'm not saying that Venus will win every time but it's also incorrect to state that Maria is "far superior" on hardcourt when it's just not true. 3-1 is not "far superior" especially when one of those went to 7-5 in the third. The head to head and who is superior is inconclusive at this point.

I know one WS owns Maria, but attempting to negate that by using the other WS is making people look stupid.

Alwaysfan
Aug 22nd, 2011, 09:50 PM
Mashitaaa :)

DOUBLEFIST
Aug 22nd, 2011, 10:03 PM
...and it is a testament to her quality that she still manages to win so much with her serve issues...
Now you sound like a Dementieva fan. :haha:

Though I suppose it doesn't make your words any less true, it is truly a shame when Maria fans take up so many of the other, lessor players, mantras.

madmax
Aug 22nd, 2011, 10:07 PM
Now you sound like a Dementieva fan. :haha:

Though I suppose it doesn't make your words any less true, it is truly a shame when Maria fans take up so many of the other, lessor players, mantras.

I don't really get your condescending tone here pal...
Let's see what would become of your fave without her main weapon...is she even TOP 50 player then? It's very easy to boast when the going is easy, not so much when the struggles occur

VishaalMaria
Aug 22nd, 2011, 10:23 PM
I don't really get your condescending tone here pal...
Let's see what would become of your fave without her main weapon...is she even TOP 50 player then? It's very easy to boast when the going is easy, not so much when the struggles occur

Well, it's just as easy to see Justine without her backhand, Kim without her forehand, Mauresmo without her net skills. They still have other strengths which they can rely on.

doomsday
Aug 22nd, 2011, 10:30 PM
Sharapova is still winning around 65 or 70% of points when her first serves go IN, the BIG issue is the second serve she really need to work on that for this Open and I'm sure she will.

DOUBLEFIST
Aug 22nd, 2011, 10:41 PM
I don't really get your condescending tone here pal...
Let's see what would become of your fave without her main weapon...is she even TOP 50 player then? It's very easy to boast when the going is easy, not so much when the struggles occur
"...pal?" :scratch: interesting notion.

No condescension. Just perspective. ;)

Anyway, Serena without her serve. Let's see... Hmmmm... :scratch:... '04 YEC where she STILL nearly managed to beat Maria. :shrug:

That is about as extreme an example of "with out her main weapon" as you'll find. But I think you'll find there are other examples of Serena winning when not serving particularly well.

:lol: It's NEVER easy being a Serena fan, because the "going" is NEVER easy. Serena has had her fair share of ups and downs and yet she STILL manages to make it back to the top of the game and, most importantly, WIN SLAMS. Now, whether she continues to do so remains to be seen.






...but it is nice when your faves an All Time Great. :devil:

dsanders06
Aug 22nd, 2011, 11:30 PM
The head to head is 3-3. Venus has won the last two, one one grass and the other on hardcourt. And she's won those easily losing no more than 4 games. Before that, Venus broke the "streak" and finally won a set off Maria on hardcourt and was close to winning in Miami 07. And that was when she had come back from a 7 month hiatus whereas Maria had come from a slam final. Up until that point, Venus had only played five events starting from Warsaw 2006 (and only three hardcourt matches in the year). Whereas for Maria, that was one of Maria's best hardcourt periods in her entire career after winning the US Open and then making the AO final. So that's closer to Peak Maria than 2005 or 2004 is on hardcourts (according to your result based logic i.e. Venus made the f of miami etc). Those are facts. And on the basis of facts, I think we all know what's happening with that head to head but Venus just needs to play more and have opportunity to face Maria.

Maria hasn't improved, she's still that df machine as evidenced by her 13dfs against Jankovic. She was playing those types of matches before facing Vee in 09 and still lost 6-2 6-2. So really, nothings improved including those patches of brilliance for Maria.


Now, I'm not saying that Venus will win every time but it's also incorrect to state that Maria is "far superior" on hardcourt when it's just not true. 3-1 is not "far superior" especially when one of those went to 7-5 in the third. The head to head and who is superior is inconclusive at this point.

I know one WS owns Maria, but attempting to negate that by using the other WS is making people look stupid.

:hug: Whatever helps you sleep at night and delude yourself that Venus is still a contender.

VishaalMaria
Aug 22nd, 2011, 11:32 PM
:hug: Whatever helps you sleep at night and delude yourself that Venus is still a contender.

You didn't dispute all those facts.

I wonder why. I find it interesting how whenever I debunk your arguments, you can't come up with a better response. I think that's obvious for all to see.

And you think Maria's a contendor, who hasn't been to the second week in five years?

I'm sure you take your own advice with that one.

dsanders06
Aug 22nd, 2011, 11:34 PM
You didn't dispute all those facts.

I wonder why. I find it interesting how whenever I debunk your arguments, you can't come up with a better response. I think that's obvious for all to see.

And you think Maria's a contendor, who hasn't been to the second week in five years?

I'm sure you take your own advice with that one.

From the first few lines of that ramble you posted, I could see you were still living in 2001, and so couldn't be bothered to read any further.

And have you compared Maria's odds for the US Open compared to Venus's lately? ;)

VishaalMaria
Aug 22nd, 2011, 11:42 PM
From the first few lines of that ramble you posted, I could see you were still living in 2001, and so couldn't be bothered to read any further.

And have you compared Maria's odds for the US Open compared to Venus's lately? ;)

The first few lines of the post were:

The head to head is 3-3. Venus has won the last two, one one grass and the other on hardcourt. And she's won those easily losing no more than 4 games. Before that, Venus broke the "streak" and finally won a set off Maria on hardcourt and was close to winning in Miami 07.

Yes so that obviously screams "2001", seeing as I was talking about 2007 and 2009 respectively. :help::help::help:. So once again whenever I provide facts (and those are facts), your responses are always so lame for everyone to see. Why do you always insist on making a fool out of yourself? (Serious question). I mean, if you've been proven wrong and if you can't directly debunk my argument, then there really isn't much else to say. Yet you try and change the topic of convo like a little pussy (cat ;) ).

As for the odds, I'm sure Maria had better odds than Venus last year and we all saw who was in title contention and who wasn't. Did we not? Exactly.

AcesHigh
Aug 22nd, 2011, 11:44 PM
From the first few lines of that ramble you posted, I could see you were still living in 2001, and so couldn't be bothered to read any further.

And have you compared Maria's odds for the US Open compared to Venus's lately? ;)

Venus probably won't even play :shrug:

And I see you're still trying to bump up that 2005 victory like Venus was playing well although I already proved in another thread Venus was crap before, during and after that tournament.

VishaalMaria
Aug 22nd, 2011, 11:47 PM
Venus probably won't even play :shrug:

And I see you're still trying to bump up that 2005 victory like Venus was playing well although I already proved in another thread Venus was crap before, during and after that tournament.

Yeah, but you have to understand it from a Maria Sharapova's fan point of view: being able to beat Serena is a major thing ;) :lol:

Bonfire
Aug 22nd, 2011, 11:48 PM
I have to give it up to Maria. Even though her game seems shaky for awhile now(especially holding serve) Her fighting spirit and mental ability to pull out tough matches is world class and second only to Serena.

Steven.
Aug 22nd, 2011, 11:48 PM
Odds doesn't really matter when it comes down to business on the court.

VishaalMaria
Aug 22nd, 2011, 11:52 PM
Odds doesn't really matter when it comes down to business on the court.

Well that argument has already been established to be moot. But trust your fellow Maria fan to bring it up in another thread, as if it's going to make it any less false. :lol:

@little levity
Aug 22nd, 2011, 11:56 PM
How many times has Jankovic done this? Got into winning positions and blew it off. That's why she doesn't ever feature in the Virtua Tennis and Topspin video games. The manufacturers know, it would make the game unbelievable to the fans who played it on XBOX 360 and PS3.

dsanders06
Aug 23rd, 2011, 12:13 AM
As for the odds, I'm sure Maria had better odds than Venus last year and we all saw who was in title contention and who wasn't. Did we not? Exactly.

Neither Maria nor Venus came close to winning the title last year. And bookmakers get the winner of Slams right a lot more times than the rankings/seedings. Nobody has EVER won a Slam with odds of 33/1 before like Venus is quoted as (not even Venus herself at Wimbledon 2005)... people aren't not betting on her just to be spiteful, they just know that she quite clearly isn't going to win it... whereas if Serena doesn't take the title, Maria is the most likely candidate to take advantage.


And I see you're still trying to bump up that 2005 victory like Venus was playing well although I already proved in another thread Venus was crap before, during and after that tournament.

I didn't say that was Venus at her "very best", but it's certainly one of her best hardcourt tournaments in the past 8 years, and is certainly closer to her peak than Maria was to hers at Stanford '09.

RenaSlam.
Aug 23rd, 2011, 12:22 AM
Jankovic isn't a top player :shrug:

it-girl
Aug 23rd, 2011, 12:32 AM
Neither Maria nor Venus came close to winning the title last year. And bookmakers get the winner of Slams right a lot more times than the rankings/seedings. Nobody has EVER won a Slam with odds of 33/1 before like Venus is quoted as (not even Venus herself at Wimbledon 2005)... people aren't not betting on her just to be spiteful, they just know that she quite clearly isn't going to win it... whereas if Serena doesn't take the title, Maria is the most likely candidate to take advantage.




I didn't say that was Venus at her "very best", but it's certainly one of her best hardcourt tournaments in the past 8 years, and is certainly closer to her peak than Maria was to hers at Stanford '09.Venus made it to the semi-finals last year so yes she clearly did come close to winning the title, losing only in the 3rd to Kim. So in that statement you are only speaking for Maria.

As for Maria being the most likely candidate, you mean like she was at the The French Open & Wimbledon this year? In both cases she was outplayed. I think people need to just let Maria play instead of making all of these no ground to stand on statements like she is Goat when she is not:shrug:

AcesHigh
Aug 23rd, 2011, 12:34 AM
I didn't say that was Venus at her "very best", but it's certainly one of her best hardcourt tournaments in the past 8 years, and is certainly closer to her peak than Maria was to hers at Stanford '09.

:spit:

Are you serious? I'll wait until you respond so I can give you the opportunity to backpedal before I completely destroy this assertion.

vozas
Aug 23rd, 2011, 12:45 AM
Who exactly said Maria is a GOAT? Some of you really live for these cat fights. Don't you have anything better to do?

VishaalMaria
Aug 23rd, 2011, 12:57 AM
Neither Maria nor Venus came close to winning the title last year. And bookmakers get the winner of Slams right a lot more times than the rankings/seedings. Nobody has EVER won a Slam with odds of 33/1 before like Venus is quoted as (not even Venus herself at Wimbledon 2005)... people aren't not betting on her just to be spiteful, they just know that she quite clearly isn't going to win it... whereas if Serena doesn't take the title, Maria is the most likely candidate to take advantage.




I didn't say that was Venus at her "very best", but it's certainly one of her best hardcourt tournaments in the past 8 years, and is certainly closer to her peak than Maria was to hers at Stanford '09.

Why are you allergic to facts?

Venus was obviously close. She was a tiebreak away from winning the match (where she had all the momentum but errored the tie break away), and onto facing Vera in the final who has never scored a win over Venus to date. Venus was in a very good position and was close. In stark contrast to Maria who was routined in straights in the fourth round. What are you smoking? :lol:

Where are the facts that the bookmakers get the winners right a lot more? You havent backed up that statement. And so what if they do? It still means Venus has a chance to prove them wrong (seeing as they are not always right), to which you laughed at. Thus you kinda contradicted yourself (and made yourself look stupid) by basically indicating that Venus has NO chance (when you've stated indirectly that she has).

I've clearly stated that last year Maria had better odds yet it was Venus who came close, certainly alot closer than Maria. So therefore the bookmakers aren't always correct in their betting odds as you seem to want to argue.

And Venus has had better hardcourt results than a Miami 2005 sf. She's made the US Open SF twice, won in Doha 2008, made the final in 2009, made the Miami final in 2010, won Zurich in 2008. So saying Miami 2005 sf is one of her best hardcourt performances is too much of a stretch. If anything, at their peaks, it was that 2005 Wimbledon match and Venus still won in straights. Thats the closest thing to go on regarding peak. I'm sure you'll find many people saying that quality wise, that match was better than the Miami one.

EDIT: Vera HAS scored a win over Venus, but still, the overwhelming head to head in favour for Venus would have put her in good stead in that final

Craig.
Aug 23rd, 2011, 01:08 AM
Who exactly said Maria is a GOAT? Some of you really live for these cat fights. Don't you have anything better to do?

This, Jesus Christ.

I know Maria has her delusional fans, but there's no need to put words in people's mouths.

AcesHigh
Aug 23rd, 2011, 01:11 AM
Veerror.. take it down a notch. You're making us Vee fans look bad going back and forth with trolls... :(

VishaalMaria
Aug 23rd, 2011, 01:16 AM
Veerror.. take it down a notch. You're making us Vee fans look bad going back and forth with trolls... :(

I think it's amazing how many trolls one fan base can have. No wonder Craigster is up in Serena's forum. :lol:

But I've said my peace now, and that's where I shall stop in this discussion.

Craig.
Aug 23rd, 2011, 01:19 AM
I think it's amazing how many trolls one fan base can have. No wonder Craigster is up in Serena's forum. :lol:

But I've said my peace now, and that's where I shall stop in this discussion.

The fans in SS are pretty awesome actually :lol:

Ayumilover.
Aug 23rd, 2011, 01:29 AM
Thank you...man, these Masha-fans sometimes. :lol:

actually apart from a few exceptions (petkovic, lisicki, peng, zheng, king, keothavong, gajdasova, vaidisova, nara, date, and doi), i'm really only a fan of the players in my sig ;)

dsanders06
Aug 23rd, 2011, 01:55 AM
Why are you allergic to facts?

Venus was obviously close. She was a tiebreak away from winning the match (where she had all the momentum but errored the tie break away), and onto facing Vera in the final who has never scored a win over Venus to date. Venus was in a very good position and was close. In stark contrast to Maria who was routined in straights in the fourth round. What are you smoking? :lol:

Where are the facts that the bookmakers get the winners right a lot more? You havent backed up that statement. And so what if they do? It still means Venus has a chance to prove them wrong (seeing as they are not always right), to which you laughed at. Thus you kinda contradicted yourself (and made yourself look stupid) by basically indicating that Venus has NO chance (when you've stated indirectly that she has).

I've clearly stated that last year Maria had better odds yet it was Venus who came close, certainly alot closer than Maria. So therefore the bookmakers aren't always correct in their betting odds as you seem to want to argue.

And Venus has had better hardcourt results than a Miami 2005 sf. She's made the US Open SF twice, won in Doha 2008, made the final in 2009, made the Miami final in 2010, won Zurich in 2008. So saying Miami 2005 sf is one of her best hardcourt performances is too much of a stretch. If anything, at their peaks, it was that 2005 Wimbledon match and Venus still won in straights. Thats the closest thing to go on regarding peak. I'm sure you'll find many people saying that quality wise, that match was better than the Miami one.

EDIT: Vera HAS scored a win over Venus, but still, the overwhelming head to head in favour for Venus would have put her in good stead in that final

Vera won the only match she's played against Venus at a Slam to date - and Slams are all that matter, after all. :)

In any case, Venus was never beating Kim, because Venus choking in that match (like she always does in any important match outside of Wimbledon) was considered by punters and priced in to her odds. Saying something like "Venus would have won that match if she hadn't choked" is just as pointless as saying "Maria would have made the RG final if she hadn't kept double-fauling" - choking is simply a part of the player Venus is, just as shit serving is part of the player Maria now is.


Are you serious? I'll wait until you respond so I can give you the opportunity to backpedal before I completely destroy this assertion.

Right, let's get this straight: are you SERIOUSLY trying to say that Maria was closer to her peak when she was a few months back from injury and barely beating the likes of Urszula Radwanska, than Venus was when she'd just beaten Serena, was in the semis of a Tier 1 tournament and would win Wimbledon within months? :help:

slydevil6142
Aug 23rd, 2011, 03:06 AM
Venus fans pay these haters no mind. Venus really hasnt played much in the last year so people are quick to forget she was the number 2 player pretty much all of last year and had a chance to take over number 1 had she won the open. INJURY is what has kept Venus out no matterwhat others want to believe. I dont know if Venus will win another slam but she has just as good a shot as anyone else not named Serena Williams. If Venus does play the open Im sure there wont be many players "excited" to see their name next to Venus no matter what nonsense their fan base tries to spew.

AcesHigh
Aug 23rd, 2011, 03:13 AM
Right, let's get this straight: are you SERIOUSLY trying to say that Maria was closer to her peak when she was a few months back from injury and barely beating the likes of Urszula Radwanska, than Venus was when she'd just beaten Serena, was in the semis of a Tier 1 tournament and would win Wimbledon within months? :help:

Wait.. what? Sharapova who just beat Petrova (no. 10 in the world) 1 and 2 before meeting Venus?.. who made the semi's of LA the next WEEK.. beating Azarenka on the way.. and then made the final of Tier I Toronto beating Bammer, Petrova, Zvonareva, Radwanska, and Kleybanova?
All within a month's time??

Or the Venus who had trouble beating Catalina Castano(ranked outside the world 100) in Miami and beat an overweight and slow Serena Williams. Who lost to Farina Elia in her previous tournament.

There was a reason that Wimbledon win was MIRACULOUS and out of the blue. Venus from 2004 up until Wimbledon 2005 was dreadful. Just stop talking about Venus already b/c you don't know much about her.

dsanders06
Aug 23rd, 2011, 03:40 AM
Wait.. what? Sharapova who just beat Petrova (no. 10 in the world) 1 and 2 before meeting Venus?.. who made the semi's of LA the next WEEK.. beating Azarenka on the way.. and then made the final of Tier I Toronto beating Bammer, Petrova, Zvonareva, Radwanska, and Kleybanova?
All within a month's time??

So now beating Petrova and Radwanska is more impressive than beating Serena? :lol: Even I give her more credit than that.

And I thought you and Veerror had already scraped the barrel :hysteric:

bandabou
Aug 23rd, 2011, 04:18 AM
I don't really get your condescending tone here pal...
Let's see what would become of your fave without her main weapon...is she even TOP 50 player then? It's very easy to boast when the going is easy, not so much when the struggles occur

But what if she doesn't have just ONE big weapon? :shrug: which one are you gonna take away from her?
take the serve away, she beats you with the forehand. take the backhand away, she beats you with her fighting spirit.

I mean...girl's THAT good. :lol:

VishaalMaria
Aug 23rd, 2011, 10:38 AM
Vera won the only match she's played against Venus at a Slam to date - and Slams are all that matter, after all. :)

In any case, Venus was never beating Kim, because Venus choking in that match (like she always does in any important match outside of Wimbledon) was considered by punters and priced in to her odds. Saying something like "Venus would have won that match if she hadn't choked" is just as pointless as saying "Maria would have made the RG final if she hadn't kept double-fauling" - choking is simply a part of the player Venus is, just as shit serving is part of the player Maria now is.




Right, let's get this straight: are you SERIOUSLY trying to say that Maria was closer to her peak when she was a few months back from injury and barely beating the likes of Urszula Radwanska, than Venus was when she'd just beaten Serena, was in the semis of a Tier 1 tournament and would win Wimbledon within months? :help:

Yet it still doesn't change the fact that Venus was closer to winning the US Open last year than Maria was. And that's the main point, considering Maria had better betting odds which means betting odds aren't always indicative. Venus choked but Maria Sharapova was getting outplayed whilst hitting dfs against Na Li. She was never in a winning position. And that seems to always be the case with Maria in important matches. She's always getting outplayed totally in slams now. All her losses this year have been routine straight sets.

Venus doesn't always choke. As I've indicated in her results, she won the 2008 championships. What significiance has Maria done on hardcourts since then? Maria has trouble beating Voskoboeva on hardcourts these days.

I'm not the one that said slams matter, but hey, if you want to go down that route, then the head to head between Maria and Venus would be 2-0 for Venus. That means she's a better player by your logic because Maria can't beat Venus were it supposedly really matters. :)

You like to skew facts. Venus had just come back from a seven month hiatus and still took Maria to a 7-5 third set which was Maria's best form on hardcourts at that point since she won the US Open and made the AO F earlier in the year. Sinc then it's been an easy ride for Venus.

Scrapping the barrel? Beating Serena after the AO 2005 was no great feat. And you're more deluded than I thought if you think it was considering how unfit and how unbothered Serena was. But I know how beating Serena for a Maria fan must be a major deal seeing as how Maria "The mentally strongest playAH!!!" folds like a cheap tent against her. Even Hdraceka is a better challenge. For one of the mentally strongest players, you and most other Maria fans sure don't want her to draw Serena at the US Open. Mentally strong? LOL

bandabou
Aug 23rd, 2011, 10:46 AM
:lol: I like how the discussion went from Masha vs Serena, into Masha vs Vee..hmmm.....:scratch: ;)

volta
Aug 23rd, 2011, 10:53 AM
:lol: I like how the discussion went from Masha vs Serena, into Masha vs Vee..hmmm.....:scratch: ;)

if attacking Serena doesn't cut it than you go after her sister and vise versa. It's the same shit different smell from the same old trolls

madmax
Aug 23rd, 2011, 10:57 AM
But what if she doesn't have just ONE big weapon? :shrug: which one are you gonna take away from her?
take the serve away, she beats you with the forehand. take the backhand away, she beats you with her fighting spirit.

I mean...girl's THAT good. :lol:

sure, keep on deluding yourself...
Plenty of girls today hit bigger and have better more stable ground games than Serena, the serve is her only saving grace right now. Even freaking Hradecka was outhitting her lately, and I'm not even going into Goerges/Kvitova power range...LOL

The Witch-king
Aug 23rd, 2011, 10:59 AM
:lol: I like how the discussion went from Masha vs Serena, into Masha vs Vee..hmmm.....:scratch: ;)

I thought it was about Maria and Jankovic :unsure:

slydevil6142
Aug 23rd, 2011, 12:08 PM
sure, keep on deluding yourself...
Plenty of girls today hit bigger and have better more stable ground games than Serena, the serve is her only saving grace right now. Even freaking Hradecka was outhitting her lately, and I'm not even going into Goerges/Kvitova power range...LOL
:lol: If only you would see how silly this argument is..... the serve is the only thing savng her??? The SERVE is the most IMPORTANT SHOT IN TENNIS! Its the only shot thats completely in the players control yet most of these girls cant serve to save their lives. If the serve is Serena ONLY saving grace then shes going to be on top for the rest of her career ......

Dominic
Aug 23rd, 2011, 02:33 PM
But what if she doesn't have just ONE big weapon? :shrug: which one are you gonna take away from her?
take the serve away, she beats you with the forehand. take the backhand away, she beats you with her fighting spirit.

I mean...girl's THAT good. :lol:

Are you serious!?? Serena Williams is a serve. you're pretty delusional you know.

sammy01
Aug 23rd, 2011, 02:44 PM
the problem maria has is her game is undermining her mental strength. she is still tough as nails but she just doesn't have the same game to rely on now. i mean can you imagine a sharapova match from 2004 to 2008 where she fights back to win the 2nd set tie break and then loses her 1st 3 service games of the final set :help:

her mind is still there and fighting hard if not harder than ever, it is just nowadays she has to battle the opponent and her own game.

however the name sharapova will always strike fear into the mentally weak players like vera and jj no matter how bad she is playing.

VishaalMaria
Aug 23rd, 2011, 02:45 PM
Are you serious!?? Serena Williams is a serve. you're pretty delusional you know.

I didn't know Serena Williams won all her matches to date by hitting aces on all her service games and her opponents hitting errors on theirs.:tape:

If you really believe that, then you're pretty stupid.

Dominic
Aug 23rd, 2011, 03:21 PM
I didn't know Serena Williams won all her matches to date by hitting aces on all her service games and her opponents hitting errors on theirs.:tape:

If you really believe that, then you're pretty stupid.

Hello :weirdo: I was obviously exagerating on purpose. Obviously every tennis player who has top 100 talent has somewhat acceptable groundstrokes but Serena without her serve wouldn't be top ten material, many ppl have better groundies, volleys, movement, variety etc.

Dominic
Aug 23rd, 2011, 03:25 PM
the problem maria has is her game is undermining her mental strength. she is still tough as nails but she just doesn't have the same game to rely on now. i mean can you imagine a sharapova match from 2004 to 2008 where she fights back to win the 2nd set tie break and then loses her 1st 3 service games of the final set :help:


I have to disagree, she used to play the big points a HELL of alot better than today.

VishaalMaria
Aug 23rd, 2011, 03:43 PM
Hello :weirdo: I was obviously exagerating on purpose. Obviously every tennis player who has top 100 talent has somewhat acceptable groundstrokes but Serena without her serve wouldn't be top ten material, many ppl have better groundies, volleys, movement, variety etc.

Such as who?

SU
Aug 23rd, 2011, 03:46 PM
Such as who?

Maria Sharapova at her best, wimbledon 2004 justine, capriati and jelena, do you want more:wavey:

hablo
Aug 23rd, 2011, 03:46 PM
Hello :weirdo: I was obviously exagerating on purpose. Obviously every tennis player who has top 100 talent has somewhat acceptable groundstrokes but Serena without her serve wouldn't be top ten material, many ppl have better groundies, volleys, movement, variety etc.

Who are these "many people" with better groundies?

VishaalMaria
Aug 23rd, 2011, 03:50 PM
Maria Sharapova at her best, wimbledon 2004 justine, capriati and jelena, do you want more:wavey:

If I want another laugh, I'll ask for some more.

bandabou
Aug 23rd, 2011, 04:05 PM
if attacking Serena doesn't cut it than you go after her sister and vise versa. It's the same shit different smell from the same old trolls

:lol: Sad ain't it?

BluSthil
Aug 23rd, 2011, 04:06 PM
Oh please... Except for the first set, Jankovic sucked !!! Sharapova didn't do much better except she beat a sucky Jankovic. How many breaks were there, how many UFE's...

bandabou
Aug 23rd, 2011, 04:06 PM
sure, keep on deluding yourself...
Plenty of girls today hit bigger and have better more stable ground games than Serena, the serve is her only saving grace right now. Even freaking Hradecka was outhitting her lately, and I'm not even going into Goerges/Kvitova power range...LOL

What? You guys have so lil faith in Masha nowadays, that you're hoping that some Hradecka and Goerges can take her out for your fav?! :sad: How the mighty have fallen! :eek: ;)

bandabou
Aug 23rd, 2011, 04:09 PM
Are you serious!?? Serena Williams is a serve. you're pretty delusional you know.

:lol: Happens to be the ONLY shot you've total control on..so, :lol: Too bad nobody's gonna take it away from her.

bandabou
Aug 23rd, 2011, 04:11 PM
Hello :weirdo: I was obviously exagerating on purpose. Obviously every tennis player who has top 100 talent has somewhat acceptable groundstrokes but Serena without her serve wouldn't be top ten material, many ppl have better groundies, volleys, movement, variety etc.

:rolls: Like whom? Sharapova? :rolls:

tennisbum79
Aug 23rd, 2011, 04:16 PM
I see, Sharapova was not doing well in the USO chances thread, since then, another looking backward, lamenting at her loss glory has popped up, then this one, alos looking backward, has been revived.

At some you would have to face the present and future. Ana K. fans did, so can you.

After Maria retires, you'll have plenty of time to revel in her Wimbledon 2004, pre-shoulder-injury victory over Serena.

justineheninfan
Aug 23rd, 2011, 05:59 PM
GoDokic even if your ridiculous claim were true, the serve is the most important shot in tennis. To have the best serve in history, which most everone agrees Serena does, is an enormously valuable asset.

justineheninfan
Aug 23rd, 2011, 06:02 PM
Maria Sharapova at her best, wimbledon 2004 justine, capriati and jelena, do you want more:wavey:

Yes Jelena no forehand Jankovic has better groundstrokes than Maria. Wimbledon 2004 Justine? Justine didnt even play Wimbledon 2004 which is already proof you dont know what you are talking about (as if it wasnt evident already, lol). Sharapova must never play your best by your logic since she not only struggles with Serena's serve but loses her own right and left against Serena's "inferior" ground game nearly everytime they play now.

Capriati is one of the few who can definitely go toe to toe with Serena off the ground, and Serena edged many of their matches through a much superior serve, I will give you that much.

doomsday
Aug 23rd, 2011, 06:09 PM
Yes Jelena no forehand Jankovic has better groundstrokes than Maria. Wimbledon 2004 Justine? Justine didnt even play Wimbledon 2004 which is already proof you dont know what you are talking about (as if it wasnt evident already, lol). Sharapova must never play your best by your logic since she not only struggles with Serena's serve but loses her own right and left against Serena's "inferior" ground game nearly everytime they play now.

Capriati is one of the few who can definitely go toe to toe with Serena off the ground, and Serena edged many of their matches through a much superior serve, I will give you that much.

Overreacting much?:lol: Maria in her last three matches against Serena was fairly good and the battles they had prove that she was really bad just coples of weeks ago but don't generalize. And he didn't mention Justine Wimbledon 2004 but more like Sharapova Wimbledon 2004, Justine etc....

Serenita
Aug 23rd, 2011, 06:12 PM
Hello :weirdo: I was obviously exagerating on purpose. Obviously every tennis player who has top 100 talent has somewhat acceptable groundstrokes but Serena without her serve wouldn't be top ten material, many ppl have better groundies, volleys, movement, variety etc.

I have to disagree, she used to play the big points a HELL of alot better than today.

GoDokic even if your ridiculous claim were true, the serve is the most important shot in tennis. To have the best serve in history, which most everone agrees Serena does, is an enormously valuable asset.

GoDokic :lol::lol::lol::lol:

That y'all are trying to convince this person...If someone is soo dumb to think that Serena only has a serve, let them:lol::hah::happy:
Anyway's Pova problem isn't only her Serve, its her movement and her one dimensional game. She got away with it because JJ was playing awfull tennis.

doomsday
Aug 23rd, 2011, 06:19 PM
GoDokic :lol::lol::lol::lol:

That y'all are trying to convince this person...If someone is soo dumb to think that Serena only has a serve, let them:lol::hah::happy:
Anyway's Pova problem isn't only her Serve, its her movement and her one dimensional game. She got away with it because JJ was playing awfull tennis.

And Maria wasn't :lol: Sharapova should have won that match in straights if she had kept that tennis she played in the first 5 games but she obviously wanted to add some drama in the match.

justineheninfan
Aug 23rd, 2011, 06:50 PM
Overreacting much?:lol: Maria in her last three matches against Serena was fairly good and the battles they had prove that she was really bad just coples of weeks ago but don't generalize. And he didn't mention Justine Wimbledon 2004 but more like Sharapova Wimbledon 2004, Justine etc....

Serena has badly destroyed Maria in 3 of their last 5 matches, not only holding serve but breaking her serve at will. Any matches they played before that were over 6.5 years ago now when Maria was young, fearless, and had a much better game than she currently has. Of the remaining 2 Maria did give Serena one close match on grass, and one close match was on clay which is expected.

doomsday
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:35 PM
Serena has badly destroyed Maria in 3 of their last 5 matches, not only holding serve but breaking her serve at will. Any matches they played before that were over 6.5 years ago now when Maria was young, fearless, and had a much better game than she currently has. Of the remaining 2 Maria did give Serena one close match on grass, and one close match was on clay which is expected.

It would be difficult to handle if Maria was playing a stellar tennis but she definitely wasn't when Serena badly beat her and you know it(Wozniacki beat Maria 1 and 2 breaking her seven times, Azarenka too during Miami this year and Cibulkova almost double bagelled her in 2009) anyway at the end of the day in their last 3 matches, two were really great battles when Maria's serve was more solid and she was in better form you don't have to go back in 2007 to prove your point especially when you know Maria was injured back then or playing and serving like an amateur like coples of weeks ago. Thanks.

VishaalMaria
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:55 PM
It would be difficult to handle if Maria was playing a stellar tennis but she definitely wasn't when Serena badly beat her and you know it(Wozniacki beat Maria 1 and 2 breaking her seven times, Azarenka too during Miami this year and Cibulkova almost double bagelled her in 2009) anyway at the end of the day in their last 3 matches, two were really great battles when Maria's serve was more solid and she was in better form you don't have to go back in 2007 to prove your point especially when you know Maria was injured back then or playing and serving like an amateur like coples of weeks ago. Thanks.

It's no coincidence that Maria hasn't beaten Serena since 2004. It's because Serena's game (mental and physical) is too much for her, and Serena really doesn't allow Maria to feel comfortable on the court.

effedcamel
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:01 PM
It's no coincidence that Maria hasn't beaten Serena since 2004. It's because Serena's game (mental and physical) is too much for her, and Serena really doesn't allow Maria to feel comfortable on the court.

This.

And it's not really a big deal IMO in reflecting Maria's career. Maria was never a contender for GOAT cause of the well-known limitations of her game plus injuries that have further lowered her game. The fact that she has a W over Serena at Wimbly should be great as it is.

hablo
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:06 PM
It's no coincidence that Maria hasn't beaten Serena since 2004. It's because Serena's game (mental and physical) is too much for her, and Serena really doesn't allow Maria to feel comfortable on the court.

And Serena fans could even argue that injuries have also affected Serena's game/career too.

Imo, Serena's game in 2002/2003 was better, more explosive. Her movement has never been quite the same after her knee (?) injury.

justineheninfan
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:08 PM
I agree it doesnt reflect badly on Maria that Serena owns her. Everyone has their nemisis, and if a 13 slam winner is your worst nemisis that aint too bad. It isnt like Li Na who is owned by a lesser player like Stosur. However that Serena owns her is simply a fact. They had a nice little rivalry back in 2004-2005. Serena was AWOL most of 2006 while Maria was one of the best that year. However since 2007 no matter how both are playing Serena owns Maria completely, period. They either have a close match which Serena still always wins, usually in straight sets, or often Maria is blown away. Serena is just a bad technical and mental matchup for her until proven otherwise (and I dont mean a match from 7 years ago).

Adal
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:09 PM
Jankovic is not a top player. Not anymore, at least.

doomsday
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:13 PM
It's no coincidence that Maria hasn't beaten Serena since 2004. It's because Serena's game (mental and physical) is too much for her, and Serena really doesn't allow Maria to feel comfortable on the court.

I'm well aware of that, who does feel comfortable over Serena anyway ? I'm just saying that using those beatdowns is hardly an indication cause Maria was having trouble with her serve. Maria playing her real level of tennis could challenge Serena a lot more than that but it's true that most of the time Serena would still win I accepted that a long time ago.

VishaalMaria
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:18 PM
I'm well aware of that, who does feel comfortable over Serena anyway ? I'm just saying that using those beatdowns is hardly an indication cause Maria was having trouble with her serve. Maria playing her real level of tennis could challenge Serena a lot more than that but it's true that most of the time Serena would still win I accepted that a long time ago.

Plenty of players feel comfortable against Serena. Venus, Kim, even Hradecka got her game going in the end against Serena.

It's just Maria where Serena is able to have an easy time. (at least three wins, Serena got an easy 5-0 or 5-1lead in the first set).

doomsday
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:21 PM
I agree it doesnt reflect badly on Maria that Serena owns her. Everyone has their nemisis, and if a 13 slam winner is your worst nemisis that aint too bad. It isnt like Li Na who is owned by a lesser player like Stosur. However that Serena owns her is simply a fact. They had a nice little rivalry back in 2004-2005. Serena was AWOL most of 2006 while Maria was one of the best that year. However since 2007 no matter how both are playing Serena owns Maria completely, period. They either have a close match which Serena still always wins, usually in straight sets, or often Maria is blown away. Serena is just a bad technical and mental matchup for her until proven otherwise (and I dont mean a match from 7 years ago).

Definitely true and when we know Serena's attitude when Maria is on the other side of the net, it definitely ain't. I can't recall one bad match of hers over Maria.:eek:

bandabou
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:26 PM
It would be difficult to handle if Maria was playing a stellar tennis but she definitely wasn't when Serena badly beat her and you know it(Wozniacki beat Maria 1 and 2 breaking her seven times, Azarenka too during Miami this year and Cibulkova almost double bagelled her in 2009) anyway at the end of the day in their last 3 matches, two were really great battles when Maria's serve was more solid and she was in better form you don't have to go back in 2007 to prove your point especially when you know Maria was injured back then or playing and serving like an amateur like coples of weeks ago. Thanks.

Don't dwell on it too much...Masha is on the long list of players owned by Serena, son. It's what it is. Difference between a good/great player and a player on GOAT-level.

When you've to go back to one match in '05 and one on clay in '08 for the matches that Masha made respectable, well..:lol:

doomsday
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:26 PM
Plenty of players feel comfortable against Serena. Venus, Kim, even Hradecka got her game going in the end against Serena.

It's just Maria where Serena is able to have an easy time. (at least three wins, Serena got an easy 5-0 or 5-1lead in the first set).

What the hell? The same Venus who lost 6 times in GS finals over Serena, and four in a row please. Kim still got her ass own against Serena and for a very long time she had this win 2 years ago but she still owned 7/2.
Anyway Serena's mood over Maria is definitely not the same, Bammer lead 2/0 over Serena but Serena never faced that girl seriously at least definitely not like when she plays Pova.

justineheninfan
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:30 PM
I'm well aware of that, who does feel comfortable over Serena anyway ? I'm just saying that using those beatdowns is hardly an indication cause Maria was having trouble with her serve. Maria playing her real level of tennis could challenge Serena a lot more than that but it's true that most of the time Serena would still win I accepted that a long time ago.

Maria hasnt had a serve since 2006, except for a blip in late 2007-early 2008, so Maria having problems with her serve is no refute against her current level as a player, even on a good day.

VishaalMaria
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:32 PM
What the hell? The same Venus who lost 6 times in GS finals over Serena, and four in a row please. Kim still got her ass own against Serena and for a very long time she had this win 2 years ago but she still owned 7/2.
Anyway Serena's mood over Maria is definitely not the same, Bammer lead 2/0 over Serena but Serena never faced that girl seriously at least definitely not like when she plays Pova.

Venus is 6-2 against Serena in slam finals (so she's beaten Serena on the big stage twice), and last won against her in 2009. The rest since then have been competitive.

Maria last beat her in 2004, and three of the five last matches have pretty much been hitting practice for Serena.

Just face it, Venus isn't in the same group as Maria when it comes to Serena.

justineheninfan
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:37 PM
Maria still does far worse against Serena than most of the very top. Clijsters has a similar head to head but she and Serena have only played 4 times since Kim became a top player in late 2002 and they are 2-2 in that span. Henin, Venus, Hingis, and Capriati all have close head to heads with Serena. Davenport has a bad head to head, but she still was more competitive than Maria I believe.

Serena obviously just loves to play against Maria's game, and psychologically has a big edge over her. She also seems to see red whenever Maria is on the other side of the court, the fact she seems able to work up more of a personal grudge to motivate her vs Maria than she does even vs Henin, is telling to how she must feel about Maria. :lol:

doomsday
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:38 PM
Venus is 6-2 against Serena in slam finals (so she's beaten Serena on the big stage twice), and last won against her in 2009. The rest since then have been competitive.

Maria last beat her in 2004, and three of the five last matches have pretty much been hitting practice for Serena.

Just face it, Venus isn't in the same group as Maria when it comes to Serena.

Still she lost 4 times in a row in GS finals, this is not even a punchbag at this point but more like a doormat.

VishaalMaria
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:43 PM
Still she lost 4 times in a row in GS finals, this is not even a punchbag at this point but more like a doormat.


That's a major stretch, dontchat think?

So Venus lost to Serena four times in a row, and Sharapova has lost the last six matches and somehow they're in the same boat?

You do realise 6 is greater than 4 right?

More like, losing four times (the last one being a tight three setter) a punchbag, and losing six times in a row (with three of those losses losing no more than four games) is a doormat.

So they aren't in the same boat. And Venus doesn't freeze when she's on the court against Serena for Serena to beat her 6-1 6-2 or 6-1 6-1 constantly.

doomsday
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:44 PM
Maria still does far worse against Serena than most of the very top. Clijsters has a similar head to head but she and Serena have only played 4 times since Kim became a top player in late 2002 and they are 2-2 in that span. Henin, Venus, Hingis, and Capriati all have close head to heads with Serena. Davenport has a bad head to head, but she still was more competitive than Maria I believe.

And Serena gave those beatdowns to Shoulderpova, you want to find excuses then I'm gonna give you some.

Serena obviously just loves to play against Maria's game, and psychologically has a big edge over her. She also seems to see red whenever Maria is on the other side of the court, the fact she seems able to work up more of a personal grudge to motivate her vs Maria than she does even vs Henin, is telling to how she must feel about Maria. :lol:

This is absolutely not true at least not when Maria's game is ON I remember Serena saving mpoints in OZ, sets points during Charleston and Wimbledon so again Maria's game when ON is a nightmare for anyone and she can be tough to beat. And serve is way too important when they play each other and like you said Maria's serve hasn't been really consistent since 2007.

doomsday
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:47 PM
That's a major stretch, dontchat think?

So Venus lost to Serena four times in a row, and Sharapova has lost the last six matches and somehow they're in the same boat?

You do realise 6 is greater than 4 right?

More like, losing four times (the last one being a tight three setter) a punchbag, and losing six times in a row (with three of those losses losing no more than four games) is a doormat.

So they aren't in the same boat. And Venus doesn't freeze when she's on the court against Serena for Serena to beat her 6-1 6-2 or 6-1 6-1 constantly.

Not even comparable, OK Maria hasn't beat Serena for 7 years now but they faced only once a year basically :shrug: losing 4 times in a row in GS finals and 5 in less than one year against the very same opponent :help: Venus was indeed a doormat back then.

bandabou
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:51 PM
And Serena gave those beatdowns to Shoulderpova, you want to find excuses then I'm gonna give you some.



This is absolutely not true at least not when Maria's game is ON I remember Serena saving mpoints in OZ, sets points during Charleston and Wimbledon so again Maria's game when ON is a nightmare for anyone and she can be tough to beat. And serve is way too important when they play each other and like you said Maria's serve hasn't been really consistent since 2007.

:lol: Now having sp's against Serena is already cause to :bounce:? Wow!

doomsday
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:53 PM
:lol: Now having sp's against Serena is already cause to :bounce:? Wow!

You know what I meant, Serena was playing fairly well in those matches and those sets points could have been decisive.

effedcamel
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:55 PM
And Serena gave those beatdowns to Shoulderpova, you want to find excuses then I'm gonna give you some.



This is absolutely not true at least not when Maria's game is ON I remember Serena saving mpoints in OZ, sets points during Charleston and Wimbledon so again Maria's game when ON is a nightmare for anyone and she can be tough to beat. And serve is way too important when they play each other and like you said Maria's serve hasn't been really consistent since 2007.

I love Maria, but no. An on Maria may trouble anyone (see their close matches), but Serena either never gets the on Maria (04 Wimbledon aside) or she never lets on Maria get into the match.

MaruSharapova
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:57 PM
I really hate threads like this, because even though I'm a Maria fan (also like Serena tbh) I feel Serena's the superior player, and it's sad to see fellow Maria fans try their hardest to give valid arguments in Maria's favor, but I'm not seeing it. I think Maria has the better backhand and swinging volleys, but aside from that :tape:
To answer the OP's question, Maria has a great mental fortitude better than many of her fellow players. I only rank Serena above her in that department.

10sMan
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:57 PM
I think that Marias win over JJ just shows how weak WTA is on the top! It doesnt have a leade. Because of the rule that girls younger than 18 cannot play pro tournaments we have a gap without good players...

doomsday
Aug 23rd, 2011, 09:00 PM
I really hate threads like this, because even though I'm a Maria fan (also like Serena tbh) I feel Serena's the superior player, and it's sad to see fellow Maria fans try their hardest to give valid arguments in Maria's favor, but I'm not seeing it. I think Maria has the better backhand and swinging volleys, but aside from that :tape:
To answer the OP's question, Maria has a great mental fortitude better than many of her fellow players. I only rank Serena above her in that department.

I'm not denying that but acting like Serena would roll over Maria even when she plays and serves well this is not true. I admitted a lot of times that Serena was the superior player.;)

bandabou
Aug 23rd, 2011, 09:29 PM
You know what I meant, Serena was playing fairly well in those matches and those sets points could have been decisive.

Serena does that to you..beats you even when you think you had a chance.

doomsday
Aug 23rd, 2011, 09:58 PM
Serena does that to you..beats you even when you think you had a chance.

True but she doesn't choose to have tough matches in the first place, noone does.:lol:

spencercarlos
Aug 23rd, 2011, 10:12 PM
You know what I meant, Serena was playing fairly well in those matches and those sets points could have been decisive.
Losing a set is not decisive, especially when it comes to a player like Serena who is a mental gigant and knows how to put on a gear or two when things are tough and especially in big matches.

In the end of the day what counts is that Serena is 7-2 over Maria. Has won 5 of those matches in straight sets.

In 4 of their last 5 matches Sharapova has been awarded 5 FIVE 6-1 sets.

And this is not because Sharapova in mentally fragile against Serena, its because Serena´s overall game imposes over Maria (which includes the mental fortitude). Period.

Beny
Aug 23rd, 2011, 10:24 PM
She has a mental edge over pretty much the entire WTA except for Serena. She'll continue folding like a discounted Decathlon tent against her.

The fact that she keeps focusing on winning no matter how many or how stupid her errors were is a testament to Maria's biggest asset. Somehow she never stops believing. I for one would've had an instant meltdown had I missed some of those forehands on BP :help:

I agree. But its nothing to be too overly happy about.

Sharapova victory over Jankovic proves she still has mental hold over some top player

Please, I hope you are not serious.

After double-faulting on 90% of important points in that match, plus Jankovic was so damn bad in the third set. Just re-watch it. Physically Jankovic was not there at all, missing so many shots it was impossible to win that set for her against any opponent in the world.

Maria´s been a headcase since she returned. You can see her 'thinking' so much before each second serve on a big pont. She is praying for it to go in. And then it doesnt and she gets frustrated.

aselto
Aug 23rd, 2011, 10:39 PM
Let's change the thread title "Vesnina victory over Jankovic proves anyone has mental hold over JJ these days" :shrug:

Linguae^
Aug 23rd, 2011, 10:41 PM
No.
Jelena is the biggest mental midget.
And she doesn't even care.

justineheninfan
Aug 23rd, 2011, 10:42 PM
And Serena gave those beatdowns to Shoulderpova, you want to find excuses then I'm gonna give you some.

So Stanford was Shoulderpova too. :lol: You need to get off the "when she serves well" "her serve wasnt working" thing since Maria hasnt had a serve since 2006 now, except for a 4 month blip which included one month off season end of 07/start of 08. If you want to say Serena wouldnt have had it as easy with peak Maria who had a real serve back in 04-06 then fine, whether one agrees or not, it would atleast be a valid argument. However the "she didnt serve well" is not a valid argument for the current Maria. Maria's serve is what it is now, she will probably never have a serve weapon again, and have to make the best of the rest of her game. If Serena often finds it easy to destroy Maria without a serve, then that just means she often finds it easy to destroy Maria now period, since that is what Maria is now.

faboozadoo15
Aug 23rd, 2011, 10:55 PM
Sharapova won the first couple of meetings at a time Venus was on a visibly slump, even on a year she was titleless on hardcourts if i remmember well 2004 and 2005.

Since their 3rd match, Venus is 3-1 vs Sharapova, winning her matches in straight sets, and her loss was a 7-5 in the third set defeat.. Their last match in 2009 was a 6-2 6-2 win from Venus in Standford.

This is clear cherry picking... They haven't played very often at all, and they've never played during or around Maria's peak. However, Venus has played 2 of her best matches since 2000/2001 against Maria at Wimbledon.

TennisArt
Aug 23rd, 2011, 11:15 PM
Have to give credit where it is due and the one thing I think Maria does better than anyone is hit her ground strokes with lots of depth and pace consistently and its so flat, so her ground game is probably the hardest to deal with in the WTA.

it-girl
Aug 23rd, 2011, 11:40 PM
Have to give credit where it is due and the one thing I think Maria does better than anyone is hit her ground strokes with lots of depth and pace consistently and its so flat, so her ground game is probably the hardest to deal with in the WTA.I am sorry but there are several players who hit their shots with constant dept and pace. Even in the Wimbledon final they said that Petra's balls cleared the net much lower than Maria's on a consistent basis. As for her being the hardest to deal with, that's just not reality, because several players have dealt with her rather easily lately. She is a fighter I will give her that but her 1 dimensional game is not hard to pick apart once you expose her movement.

madmax
Aug 23rd, 2011, 11:45 PM
I am sorry but there are several players who hit their shots with constant dept and pace. Even in the Wimbledon final they said that Petra's balls cleared the net much lower than Maria's on a consistent basis. As for her being the hardest to deal with, that's just not reality, because several players have dealt with her rather easily lately. She is a fighter I will give her that but her 1 dimensional game is not hard to pick apart once you expose her movement.

the thing is that it's not easy to expose her movement when she's not missing and hitting every groundstroke deep and hard. Only current peak Kvitova on grass was able to outhit her and she still needed an off day from Maria to win. The fact that Maria wins so many matches without her serve working speaks volumes about the quality of her ground game and how difficult it is for girls to deal with it

TennisArt
Aug 23rd, 2011, 11:45 PM
I am sorry but there are several players who hit their shots with constant dept and pace. Even in the Wimbledon final they said that Petra's balls cleared the net much lower than Maria's on a consistent basis. As for her being the hardest to deal with, that's just not reality, because several players have dealt with her rather easily lately. She is a fighter I will give her that but her 1 dimensional game is not hard to pick apart once you expose her movement.

I mean just her ground game alone.. not her skills overall. She does have a lethal ground game. I would much rather have her ground strokes than Kvitova's because she makes way too many errors. But on a ball for ball basis I think Maria has the best ground game in the WTA.

ICHUSE2
Aug 23rd, 2011, 11:55 PM
It just proves they both Stink!

bandabou
Aug 24th, 2011, 04:25 AM
True but she doesn't choose to have tough matches in the first place, noone does.:lol:

Noone does indeed, but few can WIN when it comes down to it... hopefully they don't get to meet each other too early at the Open, so that we can have a good match.

Excelscior
Aug 24th, 2011, 05:15 AM
You try to view these post with fairness, and with out responding. But I love how overtly optimistic, aka delusional Sharapova fans try to convince themselves she's playing so well now.

I just came across some one say that said "it took an off game by Sharapova" for Kvitova to beat her in the Wimbledon. Huh? WTF?

If her finals performance was an "off match" (actually it was one of Masha's better matches of Wimbledon, quite honestly. Sharapova fans just don't like the outcome, cause she lost to the better player), then what the hell was her semi finals appearance when she had 13 double faults, 18 UE's (yes I know it included her DF's), was down early and hit 13 winners against Lisicki? Are you guys that delusional? You didn't think we saw it, or her game against Laura Robson, where she was down 4-1 in the first set?

Sharapova just got outplayed by a better server, returner, and ground stroker in that final. Sharapova, was lucky Petra missed 3 easy sitters, she normally makes in her sleep, otherwise she would of won that match 6-2, 6-2. Straight up. That was a quite ordinary game by Petra (probably below standard) for Wimbledon 2011.

Now I see a poster saying, they'd rather have Sharapova's ground game over Petra's, after a match where she just hit 50+ UE's, and lost to Petra in Wimbldedon, in a battle of ground strokes (amongst other things). You can't make this up. Lol. It's total comedy.

Sharapova is very inconsistent. At least you know what you're going to get with Petra early in a tournament, then through out the week. With Sharapova it doesn't matter how she looks and when. Her game fluctuates from brilliant, to brutally horrid in the matter of minutes, hours, and matches, within the same match and tournament. You can never be comfortable, as a fan of hers. There's no predictability in her game what so ever. It's worse than Petra! Why you think Martha only won her 2nd title of the year on Sun (and no Majors in 3 yrs)?

I don't see how any Sharapova fan can feel comfortable, after the weekend, when she so grossly backed into her title, cause Jankovic played even more terrible, than she did. Are you kidding me?

It's like what someone wrote the other day elsewhere, "Sharapova's not clutch, just tenacious; there's a difference". Yes there is. I agree!

Good Luck in the US Open, and the YEC championship. I wish her the best.

Unfortunately, for her, Sharapova will more than likely get knocked out by the first inform opponent she faces in the US open, and will not win the YEC over Kvitova or Wozniaki (she just backed into/won only her second title this year, compared to their 4 and 5 titles already). They'll win some more, I'm sure.

In the interim; can we just let the US Open (and the rest of the year) at least play out Martha fans?

SMH. Lol.

AcesHigh
Aug 24th, 2011, 06:19 AM
This is clear cherry picking... They haven't played very often at all, and they've never played during or around Maria's peak. However, Venus has played 2 of her best matches since 2000/2001 against Maria at Wimbledon.

That's just plain untrue.

VeeJJ
Aug 24th, 2011, 06:28 AM
idk, they both sucked, bad lol. i could have swore Masha would have won in straights at 4-1 in the 1st cause she was playing flawless. Then in the second I was pretty sure Jelena would win. This was a topsy turvy match. If Jelena had her game in order she would have won easily. Idk this match represents anything major from maria.

The Witch-king
Aug 24th, 2011, 08:26 AM
This is clear cherry picking... They haven't played very often at all, and they've never played during or around Maria's peak. However, Venus has played 2 of her best matches since 2000/2001 against Maria at Wimbledon.

When exactly was Maria's peak? Is it yet to come :lol::lol::lol:

madmax
Aug 24th, 2011, 09:36 AM
You try to view these post with fairness, and with out responding. But I love how overtly optimistic, aka delusional Sharapova fans try to convince themselves she's playing so well now.

I just came across some one say that said "it took an off game by Sharapova" for Kvitova to beat her in the Wimbledon. Huh? WTF?

If her finals performance was an "off match" (actually it was one of Masha's better matches of Wimbledon, quite honestly. Sharapova fans just don't like the outcome, cause she lost to the better player), then what the hell was her semi finals appearance when she had 13 double faults, 18 UE's (yes I know it included her DF's), was down early and hit 13 winners against Lisicki? Are you guys that delusional? You didn't think we saw it, or her game against Laura Robson, where she was down 4-1 in the first set?

Sharapova just got outplayed by a better server, returner, and ground stroker in that final. Sharapova, was lucky Petra missed 3 easy sitters, she normally makes in her sleep, otherwise she would of won that match 6-2, 6-2. Straight up. That was a quite ordinary game by Petra (probably below standard) for Wimbledon 2011.

Now I see a poster saying, they'd rather have Sharapova's ground game over Petra's, after a match where she just hit 50+ UE's, and lost to Petra in Wimbldedon, in a battle of ground strokes (amongst other things). You can't make this up. Lol. It's total comedy.

Sharapova is very inconsistent. At least you know what you're going to get with Petra early in a tournament, then through out the week. With Sharapova it doesn't matter how she looks and when. Her game fluctuates from brilliant, to brutally horrid in the matter of minutes, hours, and matches, within the same match and tournament. You can never be comfortable, as a fan of hers. There's no predictability in her game what so ever. It's worse than Petra! Why you think Martha only won her 2nd title of the year on Sun (and no Majors in 3 yrs)?

I don't see how any Sharapova fan can feel comfortable, after the weekend, when she so grossly backed into her title, cause Jankovic played even more terrible, than she did. Are you kidding me?

It's like what someone wrote the other day elsewhere, "Sharapova's not clutch, just tenacious; there's a difference". Yes there is. I agree!

Good Luck in the US Open, and the YEC championship. I wish her the best.

Unfortunately, for her, Sharapova will more than likely get knocked out by the first inform opponent she faces in the US open, and will not win the YEC over Kvitova or Wozniaki (she just backed into/won only her second title this year, compared to their 4 and 5 titles already). They'll win some more, I'm sure.

In the interim; can we just let the US Open (and the rest of the year) at least play out Martha fans?

SMH. Lol.

you just can't let it go slugga, now can you...so now it was peak Maria who played in a Wimby final according to you? Too good, too good:facepalm:

bandabou
Aug 24th, 2011, 10:28 AM
:lol: We hear this after every Masha-loss lately, but WHAT is, peak Maria? Used to make her appearance once every two years...now Sharapova-fans want us to believe it hasn't been there since almost 4 years ago. :eek:

Now how are players suppose to beat something that shows up sooo infrequently and WHEN it does make a cameo, only lasts for twee weeks?! :shrug:

Isn't it time to just admit to ourselves..that peak Maria was like a fata morgana and that Masha is what she is now?!

doomsday
Aug 24th, 2011, 10:49 AM
You try to view these post with fairness, and with out responding. But I love how overtly optimistic, aka delusional Sharapova fans try to convince themselves she's playing so well now.

I just came across some one say that said "it took an off game by Sharapova" for Kvitova to beat her in the Wimbledon. Huh? WTF?

If her finals performance was an "off match" (actually it was one of Masha's better matches of Wimbledon, quite honestly. Sharapova fans just don't like the outcome, cause she lost to the better player), then what the hell was her semi finals appearance when she had 13 double faults, 18 UE's (yes I know it included her DF's), was down early and hit 13 winners against Lisicki? Are you guys that delusional? You didn't think we saw it, or her game against Laura Robson, where she was down 4-1 in the first set?

Sharapova just got outplayed by a better server, returner, and ground stroker in that final. Sharapova, was lucky Petra missed 3 easy sitters, she normally makes in her sleep, otherwise she would of won that match 6-2, 6-2. Straight up. That was a quite ordinary game by Petra (probably below standard) for Wimbledon 2011.

Now I see a poster saying, they'd rather have Sharapova's ground game over Petra's, after a match where she just hit 50+ UE's, and lost to Petra in Wimbldedon, in a battle of ground strokes (amongst other things). You can't make this up. Lol. It's total comedy.

Sharapova is very inconsistent. At least you know what you're going to get with Petra early in a tournament, then through out the week. With Sharapova it doesn't matter how she looks and when. Her game fluctuates from brilliant, to brutally horrid in the matter of minutes, hours, and matches, within the same match and tournament. You can never be comfortable, as a fan of hers. There's no predictability in her game what so ever. It's worse than Petra! Why you think Martha only won her 2nd title of the year on Sun (and no Majors in 3 yrs)?

I don't see how any Sharapova fan can feel comfortable, after the weekend, when she so grossly backed into her title, cause Jankovic played even more terrible, than she did. Are you kidding me?

It's like what someone wrote the other day elsewhere, "Sharapova's not clutch, just tenacious; there's a difference". Yes there is. I agree!

Good Luck in the US Open, and the YEC championship. I wish her the best.

Unfortunately, for her, Sharapova will more than likely get knocked out by the first inform opponent she faces in the US open, and will not win the YEC over Kvitova or Wozniaki (she just backed into/won only her second title this year, compared to their 4 and 5 titles already). They'll win some more, I'm sure.

In the interim; can we just let the US Open (and the rest of the year) at least play out Martha fans?

SMH. Lol.

You're trying so hard sluggajhells, be careful if you know what I mean :lol:

Excelscior
Aug 24th, 2011, 04:48 PM
:lol: We hear this after every Masha-loss lately, but WHAT is, peak Maria? Used to make her appearance once every two years...now Sharapova-fans want us to believe it hasn't been there since almost 4 years ago. :eek:

Now how are players suppose to beat something that shows up sooo infrequently and WHEN it does make a cameo, only lasts for twee weeks?! :shrug:

Isn't it time to just admit to ourselves..that peak Maria was like a fata morgana and that Masha is what she is now?!

Exactly!

What is Peak Maria, when she played no "Peak" tournaments in a long time? Lol. It's insane.

What's the statute of limitations on that? When does it run out for them/her?

They get so crazy, that anytime I criticize her (even if it's very infrequent), they accuse me of being someone else, repeatedly (Despite my postings and patterns on other subjects), and me repeatedly ignoring them. SMH. Crazy!

Is there anyone else that can criticize Maria, beside some fool Sluggajells in disguise they always lust for? WTF! Lol.

What a humorous, rabid, determined, fixated, reactionary, embarrassingly speculative, but optimistic bunch they are.

God Bless Them!

My first, last, and only statement on the subject. :shrug:

doomsday
Aug 24th, 2011, 05:49 PM
Exactly!

What is Peak Maria, when she played no "Peak" tournaments in a long time? Lol. It's insane.

What's the statute of limitations on that? When does it run out for them/her?

They get so crazy, that anytime I criticize her (even if it's very infrequent), they accuse me of being someone else, repeatedly (Despite my postings and patterns on other subjects), and me repeatedly ignoring them. SMH. Crazy!

Is there anyone else that can criticize Maria, beside some fool Sluggajells in disguise they always lust for? WTF! Lol.

What a humorous, rabid, determined, fixated, reactionary, embarrassingly speculative, but optimistic bunch they are.

God Bless Them!

My first, last, and only statement on the subject. :shrug:

Thank God now go back in your cave.:wavey:

faboozadoo15
Aug 24th, 2011, 06:05 PM
That's just plain untrue.

When has Venus played any better than she did against Sharapova in 2005 and 2007. I've never seen her serve better, and the stats back me up on that.

faboozadoo15
Aug 24th, 2011, 06:11 PM
When exactly was Maria's peak? Is it yet to come :lol::lol::lol:

Well for one, Venus never got far enough to play Maria in 2006 or 2008, years in which Sharapova won a major. In the only year they both played well, 2005, they are 1-1. I wouldn't look too much into a vistory over Sharapova in Stanford since it was only her second hardcourt match since surgery (ranked outside the top60), but that's just me.

Mary Cherry.
Aug 24th, 2011, 06:18 PM
Mental hold over *former top player.


:oh:

faboozadoo15
Aug 24th, 2011, 06:20 PM
Why is this Kvitova fan hijacking this thread to compare Maria to Petra?

If we wanted to know how they would have stacked up on hardcourts, Kvitova would have to learn how to get more than a few games off Petkovic (who got demolished by Jaja, who went down to Maria).

We'll see at the open, I guess. I'd much ratcher be heading into flushing meadowns with a big title to my credit (knocking off 4 consecutive top 15 opponents) even if I played poorly in the final than lose early at my last two events.

And FYI, if you're going to compare someone's consistency with Maria, can you please chose someone who hasn't lost in multiple ITF challenger events this year. Thanks.

The Witch-king
Aug 24th, 2011, 06:35 PM
Well for one, Venus never got far enough to play Maria in 2006 or 2008, years in which Sharapova won a major. In the only year they both played well, 2005, they are 1-1. I wouldn't look too much into a vistory over Sharapova in Stanford since it was only her second hardcourt match since surgery (ranked outside the top60), but that's just me.
Yeah I'll have to take issue with you blaming Venus for not meeting Maria in 2008. The only tournaments where Sharapova advanced far enough to where she was projected to meet Venus were the AO and Doha, in all the others they either both lost early or Venus won (Wimbledon). 2006 speaks for itself, Venus played only 6 tournaments that year and ended up having left wrist surgery.

Anyway I'm not going to participate in a discussion where losses are discounted because one opponent was ranked outside the top 60 or the other "wasn't playing well" that year or whatever. I think those are pointless and would just result in us going in circles. To me Sharapova beat Venus 3 times and Venus beat Sharapova 3 times all played according to the rules of tennis and all won fairly. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Mrs. Peel
Aug 24th, 2011, 07:22 PM
It just proves they both Stink!

This. To call JJ a top player right now is a HUGE stretch.Shocking that she even made it to final.

Dominic
Aug 24th, 2011, 07:24 PM
Such as who?

Are you kidding me with this now?? The number of matches I've seen Serena win but getting her ass handed to her in the majority of the baseline rallies is astronomical, Clijsters, Henin, Davenport, Dementieva when they were still active, Kvitova, Sharapova, Venus, even Azarenka, All of these players and probably more that I forget, when they are close to their best (even Rezai, had alot more winners than her is some of their matches) have better groundstrokes than her. Serena's winners are all aces or easy puttaway shots after a big first serve. And even with those, she has trouble sometimes. As for the volleys, movement variety I'm not gonna start naming all the players that are better than her cause I'd be here all day.

Dominic
Aug 24th, 2011, 07:28 PM
GoDokic even if your ridiculous claim were true, the serve is the most important shot in tennis. To have the best serve in history, which most everone agrees Serena does, is an enormously valuable asset.

Not once did I say anything going against that.

starin
Aug 24th, 2011, 07:37 PM
Are you kidding me with this now?? The number of matches I've seen Serena win but getting her ass handed to her in the majority of the baseline rallies is astronomical, Clijsters, Henin, Davenport, Dementieva when they were still active, Kvitova, Sharapova, Venus, even Azarenka, All of these players and probably more that I forget, when they are close to their best (even Rezai, had alot more winners than her is some of their matches) have better groundstrokes than her. Serena's winners are all aces or easy puttaway shots after a big first serve. And even with those, she has trouble sometimes. As for the volleys, movement variety I'm not gonna start naming all the players that are better than her cause I'd be here all day.

It's a wonder Serena ever breaks serve.

Mrs. Peel
Aug 24th, 2011, 07:39 PM
It's a wonder Serena ever breaks serve.

They say anything to belittle Serena and her achievements but they just end up making fools of themselves.

Dominic
Aug 24th, 2011, 07:42 PM
It's a wonder Serena ever breaks serve.

It's not a wonder, the majority of the girls' serve is their weakness.

dsanders06
Aug 24th, 2011, 08:04 PM
Yeah I'll have to take issue with you blaming Venus for not meeting Maria in 2008. The only tournaments where Sharapova advanced far enough to where she was projected to meet Venus were the AO and Doha, in all the others they either both lost early or Venus won (Wimbledon). 2006 speaks for itself, Venus played only 6 tournaments that year and ended up having left wrist surgery.

Anyway I'm not going to participate in a discussion where losses are discounted because one opponent was ranked outside the top 60 or the other "wasn't playing well" that year or whatever. I think those are pointless and would just result in us going in circles. To me Sharapova beat Venus 3 times and Venus beat Sharapova 3 times all played according to the rules of tennis and all won fairly. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Agreed. And the fact Maria leads Venus 3-1 on hardcourts shows that the original claim that sparked this debate, that "peak Venus" would beat Maria away from grass, is nonsense. :wavey:

bandabou
Aug 24th, 2011, 08:17 PM
Are you kidding me with this now?? The number of matches I've seen Serena win but getting her ass handed to her in the majority of the baseline rallies is astronomical, Clijsters, Henin, Davenport, Dementieva when they were still active, Kvitova, Sharapova, Venus, even Azarenka, All of these players and probably more that I forget, when they are close to their best (even Rezai, had alot more winners than her is some of their matches) have better groundstrokes than her. Serena's winners are all aces or easy puttaway shots after a big first serve. And even with those, she has trouble sometimes. As for the volleys, movement variety I'm not gonna start naming all the players that are better than her cause I'd be here all day.

:lol: Okayyy...and let's compare the service winners and aces. Who hits more of those than Serena? Or are you gonna act now like the serve is an illegal shot in tennis?! :lol:

bandabou
Aug 24th, 2011, 08:18 PM
Not once did I say anything going against that.

No, but you're sooooo moaning about it. That Serena has a GOAT-serve. The gap between Serena's serve and the rest of the tour is much much larger than whatever gap you wanna make us believe exists between the best groundstrokers and Serena's groundstrokes.

acetoace
Aug 24th, 2011, 08:21 PM
Exactly!

What is Peak Maria, when she played no "Peak" tournaments in a long time? Lol. It's insane.

What's the statute of limitations on that? When does it run out for them/her?

They get so crazy, that anytime I criticize her (even if it's very infrequent), they accuse me of being someone else, repeatedly (Despite my postings and patterns on other subjects), and me repeatedly ignoring them. SMH. Crazy!

Is there anyone else that can criticize Maria, beside some fool Sluggajells in disguise they always lust for? WTF! Lol.

What a humorous, rabid, determined, fixated, reactionary, embarrassingly speculative, but optimistic bunch they are. God Bless Them!

My first, last, and only statement on the subject. :shrug:


Wow.....:worship:

The "shoulder injury"/maria 08 thing really has gotten old. But hey, we're talking of the most delusional fan base in WTA or aren't we? I think they're having a difficult time coming to terms with "NOW" but the past is all they have at this point!!! Even at that, Maria's past up to 2008 wasn't anything close to what Serena was 02/03. So, enough of the "shoulder/08" shit already!

Up till 08, Maria was never a player who won slam every season or win multiple in a season. Hell, she hasn't won any in over 3yrs. At her best as her fans would say, maria was struggling just to take one every 2yrs. Unlike them, Serena fans don't go saying how much we wish pre-knee surgery Serena of 02/03 be back. We just simply believe in the ability of Serena of NOW to still tower head and shoulders above the rest.

It has taken sharapova 2yrs to win as much title as Serena did in 1 month despite Serena being off the tour for 11months.:rolleyes:

vozas
Aug 24th, 2011, 08:27 PM
Wow.....:worship:

The "shoulder injury"/maria 08 thing really has gotten old. But hey, we're talking of the most delusional fan base in WTA or aren't we? I think they're having a difficult time coming to terms with "NOW" but the past is all they have at this point!!! Even at that, Maria's past up to 2008 wasn't anything close to what Serena was 02/03. So, enough of the "shoulder/08" shit already!

Up till 08, Maria was never a player who won slam every season or win multiple in a season. Hell, she hasn't won any in over 3yrs. At her best as her fans would say, maria was struggling just to take one every 2yrs. Unlike them, Serena fans don't go saying how much we wish pre-knee surgery Serena of 02/03 be back. We just simply believe in the ability of Serena of NOW to still tower head and shoulders above the rest.

It took sharapova 2yrs to win as much title as Serena did in 1 month despite Serena being off the tour for 11months.:rolleyes:

Dude, you need to get a life. I love Serena but her fans and their obsession with Maria creeps me out.

acetoace
Aug 24th, 2011, 08:37 PM
Dude, you need to get a life. I love Serena but her fans and their obsession with Maria creeps me out.


LMAO @ u......

Typical response from the usual suspects. Can't stand the truth pretty much. Take a look at your post count and get back to me if u think u have the standing to advice me to get a life. :rolleyes:

moemoe
Aug 24th, 2011, 09:24 PM
LMAO @ u......

Typical response from the usual suspects. Can't stand the truth pretty much. Take a look at your post count and get back to me if u think u have the standing to advice me to get a life. :rolleyes:

That's not really that many post. But Serena fans always bash Maria when she wins. Even if it has nothing to do with Serena. I just don't know why they hate her so much. I mean what do they have to be mad about Serena has 15 grand slams and Maria can't even have mental toughness they cant give her even that

TennisArt
Aug 24th, 2011, 11:39 PM
That's not really that many post. But Serena fans always bash Maria when she wins. Even if it has nothing to do with Serena. I just don't know why they hate her so much. I mean what do they have to be mad about Serena has 15 grand slams and Maria can't even have mental toughness they cant give her even that

Not all Serena fans... I give credit where credit is due and from my perspective Maria has the best ground game in the WTA.

VishaalMaria
Aug 25th, 2011, 12:29 AM
Are you kidding me with this now?? The number of matches I've seen Serena win but getting her ass handed to her in the majority of the baseline rallies is astronomical, Clijsters, Henin, Davenport, Dementieva when they were still active, Kvitova, Sharapova, Venus, even Azarenka, All of these players and probably more that I forget, when they are close to their best (even Rezai, had alot more winners than her is some of their matches) have better groundstrokes than her. Serena's winners are all aces or easy puttaway shots after a big first serve. And even with those, she has trouble sometimes. As for the volleys, movement variety I'm not gonna start naming all the players that are better than her cause I'd be here all day.

blah blah blah blah blah blah.........

VishaalMaria
Aug 25th, 2011, 12:36 AM
Well for one, Venus never got far enough to play Maria in 2006 or 2008, years in which Sharapova won a major. In the only year they both played well, 2005, they are 1-1. I wouldn't look too much into a vistory over Sharapova in Stanford since it was only her second hardcourt match since surgery (ranked outside the top60), but that's just me.

Maria never got far enough to play Venus at Wimbledon 2008, or 2009, or the US Open 2010 etc etc. We'd be here all day listing the tournaments where Venus didn't get far enough or Maria didn't get far enough etc. It means nothing. Head to head is just that, the amount of times they've met and played against each other, and who won. So it's moot.

And Venus had come back from a seven month hiatus when they played in Miami 2007. So I suppose, by your logic, we shouldn't look too much into that.

The reason why Venus had such great stats in those matches is because she's that much better than Maria on grass as she hits bigger than Maria, mores better, and has better net skills. And believe you me, Venus has played much better than those matches but I suppose as a fan you wouldn't know that. So again its moot.

faboozadoo15
Aug 25th, 2011, 12:42 AM
Maria never got far enough to play Venus at Wimbledon 2008, or 2009, or the US Open 2010 etc etc. We'd be here all day listing the tournaments where Venus didn't get far enough or Maria didn't get far enough etc. It means nothing. Head to head is just that, the amount of times they've met and played against each other, and who won. So it's moot.

And Venus had come back from a seven month hiatus when they played in Miami 2007. So I suppose, by your logic, we shouldn't look too much into that.

The reason why Venus had such great stats in those matches is because she's that much better than Maria on grass as she hits bigger than Maria, mores better, and has better net skills. And believe you me, Venus has played much better than those matches but I suppose as a fan you wouldn't know that. So again its moot.

This could go back and forth all day. I truly havent seen Venus have a better performance anywhere, even Wimbledon as she has against Maria. She has never served better. In one match she averaged over 115 mph which is simply unheard of. The closest to both their peaks I guess, was 2005, and Maria won pretty comfortably at Miami, and Venus won relatively comfortably at Wimbledon. It's no oddity that they're 3-3 against each other. To assert that one is dominant when they've both been so up and down in their rivalry is silly.

VishaalMaria
Aug 25th, 2011, 12:49 AM
This could go back and forth all day. I truly havent seen Venus have a better performance anywhere, even Wimbledon as she has against Maria. She has never served better. In one match she averaged over 115 mph which is simply unheard of. The closest to both their peaks I guess, was 2005, and Maria won pretty comfortably at Miami, and Venus won relatively comfortably at Wimbledon. It's no oddity that they're 3-3 against each other. To assert that one is dominant when they've both been so up and down in their rivalry is silly.

Serving and actually playing good, contrary to popular belief, are two separate things with Venus.

I've seen her MUCH better off the ground where her serve has been sub par. And I've seen her serve really well whereas her ground game being erratic. But I guess it's all subjective.

And I never actually said that Venus was more dominant than Maria. It's for people who said Maria owns Venus on hardcourt. If Maria fans want to argue that the Stanford match shouldn't count, then the same should be said for their Miami match because that was Venus's first outdoor hard tournament since Australia 2006. Yet Venus still managed to take Maria to 7-5, whereas for Venus it was 6-2 6-2.

Those are the facts and on that note, I will not argue this anymore no matter how much anyone wants to taint them.

AcesHigh
Aug 25th, 2011, 01:47 AM
This could go back and forth all day. I truly havent seen Venus have a better performance anywhere, even Wimbledon as she has against Maria. She has never served better. In one match she averaged over 115 mph which is simply unheard of. The closest to both their peaks I guess, was 2005, and Maria won pretty comfortably at Miami, and Venus won relatively comfortably at Wimbledon. It's no oddity that they're 3-3 against each other. To assert that one is dominant when they've both been so up and down in their rivalry is silly.

You are seriously delusional then.. Venus was pretty bad in 2005 outside of Wimbledon.. but doesn't matter, I can agree to disagree on that.

Where you are completely ridiculous is saying that Venus has not had a better performance than against Maria at Wimbledon... really? really??????

First, we'll just adjust that to post-2003 (pre-2003 there are too many to name).. and let's just say ONLY at Wimbledon.

These are matches that Venus played AT LEAST as well as she played against Maria in 2005 and 2007:

Pierce 2005
Davenport 2005
Kuznetsova 2007 (could make a case for Ivanovic and Bartoli but I'll give you those)
Serena 2008
Aga 2009
Safina 2009

Now this is a list that I am 110% Venus played at least as well (and IMO better) as when she played Maria and i've watched every Venus match at Wimbledon from 2001-2009, most twice.
Sharapova just is not better than Venus in any single facet of the game on grass. She doesn't have the movement.. doesn't have the groundies to compete..and her serve isn't as good on grass as Serena or even Davenport IMO

AkademiQ
Aug 25th, 2011, 01:54 AM
Dude, you need to get a life. I love Serena but her fans and their obsession with Maria creeps me out.

That some have the nerve not to like Maria does not equal obsession. It's more obsessive of Maria fans that you constantly harp on who and what Serena fans like and dislike. Get over it.

Dominic
Aug 25th, 2011, 02:57 AM
:lol: Okayyy...and let's compare the service winners and aces. Who hits more of those than Serena? Or are you gonna act now like the serve is an illegal shot in tennis?! :lol:

Dude do you know that you're pointless or are you too much of a dumb stan to realize it?? Who are you arguing against??? It's certainly not me. Serena has a great serve, I've never said anything different. Crack is wack you know.

Dominic
Aug 25th, 2011, 03:00 AM
blah blah blah blah blah blah.........

Wow, good point! I'm convinced.

goldlion
Aug 25th, 2011, 03:23 AM
Maria had loads of stupid errors.

But JJ didn't take advantage of that and instead hit more errors.