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GoDominique
Nov 7th, 2002, 01:34 PM
So what really happened at those 7 match-points Lindsay had ?

1. Monica serving. Good wide serve which Lindsay can't reach.

2. Lindsay puts a relatively easy backhand passing shot into the net.

3. Lindsay with an unforced forehand error.

4. Lindsay with 2nd serve, she is too short and Monica makes a winner.

5. Monica with a decent first serve, Lindsay puts backhand-return into the net.

6. Monica with 2nd serve, Lindsay doesn't step in, Monica dominates and forces the error.

7. Lindsay with foot-fault because of stepping beyond the middle mark (!!!), 2nd serve is bad and is punished by Monica.

Also remarkable is Monica's setpoint, when Lindsay puts the easiest forehand-volley into the net.

Monica won the last 12 points of the match. 6 of the last 7 points were unforced errors of the worst kind by Lindsay, who rushed in the last 2 games and didn't seem to care anymore.

Summary: Everything Monica did right, Lindsay did wrong. In crucial situations, Monica took risks; Lindsay pulled a 'Martina' and played it safe, instead of going for a winner at least once. When Monica was down hopelessly, she fought, when Lindsay was down, she gave up.

And if you make such an error on match-point, a foot-fault not even beginners would make, then you really don't deserve to be part of the tournament any longer.

gentenaire
Nov 7th, 2002, 01:39 PM
When you have only one match point, I can see why you want to play it safe, but when you're 6-2 ahead in the tie break and have 4 match points in a row you should go for the winner.

Tennisfan-Mtl
Nov 7th, 2002, 01:46 PM
This is heartbreaking for Lindsay. I've lost my faith in her :( Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if she decided to retire next year...

selesrules
Nov 7th, 2002, 01:50 PM
It's amazing that Monica's 3 wins over Lindsay Davenport have been exactly the same.

1996 Sydney 4-6, 7-6, 6-3 (saved 1 match point in the 2nd set)

1997 Los Angeles 5-7, 7-5, 6-4 (saved 1 match point in the 2nd set)

2002 Championships 3-6, 7-6, 6-3 (saved 7 match points in the 2nd set)

WOW, what a fighter!

RAA
Nov 7th, 2002, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by GoDominique

Summary: Everything Monica did right, Lindsay did wrong. In crucial situations, Monica took risks; Lindsay pulled a 'Martina' and played it safe, instead of going for a winner at least once. When Monica was down hopelessly, she fought, when Lindsay was down, she gave up.

And if you make such an error on match-point, a foot-fault not even beginners would make, then you really don't deserve to be part of the tournament any longer.


I guess I think this is unnecessarily harsh. I think Lindsay fans would take offense, as would Martina fans to your reference of "pulled a Martina"!

Lindsay is a great champion and player. Yes, she does get down when she starts losing points, but I wouldn't be so mean spirited about it. it was a hard fought match on both sides. For Lindsay to even get 7 match points means she was clearly playing well at times during the match.

TheBoiledEgg
Nov 7th, 2002, 02:01 PM
Lindsay just realized that the higher ranked player whenever they meet always wins.

it took her about 2 hours to figure it out

selesrules
Nov 7th, 2002, 02:05 PM
I'm really surprised about this win because this is Monica's first match in a long time, for her to comeback from injury and show this kind of play & fight is amazing. Lindsay has been playing very well lately and has reached many finals, I would have thought she would easily win against a "rusty" Monica. But Monica showed everyone why she's the ultimate fighter!

AUSBOY
Nov 7th, 2002, 02:06 PM
Do you have any idea how tough mentally it is to play a third set when you have blown a few match points in the previous set!!!

Dont criticise Lindsay's performance in the third set. It can be a very emotionally draining experience to lose a 2nd set like that. It would have been in the back of her mind the whole third set.

You can say, they are professionals and should be well equipped to dealing with those situations, but these situations are quite rare in occurrence that their is no mental training they can do for this.

I think Lindsay would be shattered to have lost, but she is still comin back from injury and hasnt had a match like this in a few years. Give her a go, she will know for next time at 6-2 in a tiebreak to not hold back

mishar
Nov 7th, 2002, 02:15 PM
Have you ever played tennis yourself? This is part of the game, struggling sometimes to close out matches.
It's the mark of being on the very top that you can do that.
It's something that Monica has struggled to do for years -- winning the first set and a break in crucial matches against Capriati, Pierce, Hingis, etc and then losing.
Lindsay is not going to retire because of this. She's done amazingly well this year given that she had gone so long without playing.
She'll be back in the top 5 by the clay court season is my prediction.

And Monica is remarkably good at coming back, some players are, everyone knows this about her.

selesrules
Nov 7th, 2002, 02:17 PM
I personally don't think that Lindsay should worry. She had a very good comeback and great results!! Let us not forget that even if she had 7 match points, she was playing against most likely the greatest fighter that the game has ever seen: Monica Seles. It's not as if Lindsay couldn't close out the match against a nobody. Monica has made such comebacks about a million times in her career including Serena, Venus, Hingis, Navratilova, Graf, Capriati, etc! Linsday wasnt' an exception.

King Aaron
Nov 7th, 2002, 02:24 PM
must be heartbreaking for Lindsay

selesrules
Nov 7th, 2002, 02:29 PM
Oh please, she's beaten Monica the last 9 times before this match, yeah Lindsay must be devastated. :rolleyes: It would have been more heartbreaking if Monica lost. Monica shouldn't lose to anyone 10 times in a row, that would have been an insult to tennis history. (although I think in the Evert/Navratilova rivarly, they might have beaten each others 10 times in a row or more). But still NOBODY beats Monica 10 times in a row, and that's a FACT ;)

Anyways it's great to see Monica beating Martina, Lindsay, Venus and Serena in the last 15 months! Hopefully she can start changing the head-to-heads. In my opinion Hingis will be a much easier opponent for Monica from now on, she seems to has gotten over the mental block against her.

PhoenixStorm
Nov 7th, 2002, 03:16 PM
There was no "mental block" when seles played martina she just got outplayed.

selesrules
Nov 7th, 2002, 03:18 PM
yeah, outplayed when Hingis hits 40 mph second serves and Monica hits the returns at the bottom of the net or 10 feet long. :rolleyes: She had a mental block, that's a fact. Anyways I'm not saying that Hingis isn't a great player, I'm just saying that Monica has the weapons to beat her and she has finally shown in the last 2 years how to "control her nerves" and not mentally collapse. I expect Monica to win most of the matches against Hingis from now on, like I said she doesn't have a mental block against her anymore.

niratti
Nov 7th, 2002, 03:28 PM
As a Lindsay's fan, it's sad and devastated to see she lost to any player at any round at any tournament. :sad: :sad: :sad:

It's hurt inside to see Monica's fan congrats to thier player while wishing it should be me who celebrats for Lindsay. But thing get worse when saw some harsh messages from mean people.:mad: :mad:

It's a game, there are winner and loser. Though she lost 7 match points and the match to Monica, I believe she didn't play too bad instead it showed the quality of the match. Monica was the stronger the last match.

Thank for those who understand us, Lindsay's fans, and thank for showing your sympathy. :)

And for those who saids she should retire, wake up and be real!!:rolleyes:

If you are a true fan you will never loose you faith of your player(s). So, we, Lindsay's fans start looking forward for Lindsay's next season already :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:


BTW, Well done Monica!!! :wavey:

Serendy Willick
Nov 7th, 2002, 03:32 PM
Its great that Monica won, but I hate it that Lindsay had all of those match points but couldnt convert. Thats a very tough thing to deal with mentally, knowing you had the goods to close out the match but it just wasnt there. Serena went through that period last year and it made me pull me hair out sometimes. Good Luck Lindsay and get ready to kick some booty in Austrailia next year babe.

earthcrystal
Nov 7th, 2002, 03:42 PM
Niratti, some people have no class. Sorry for you and for all the Lindsay fans that have to listen to all their insensitive chatter.

Whenever I get the chance to celebrate Monica's success, I try to do so without causing grief on the other side. Unfortunately a lot of posters don't give a damn about how other people feel...

How easily people forget what it feels like to be on the losing end of things with their faves. It's like a vicious circle on these boards, people get hurt by nasty remarks when their faves lose, and they retaliate next time they get a chance...hurting other fans in the process. And on and on and on. How utterly juvenile. :rolleyes:

Don't worry, the wolves will move on to a new victim shortly.

leslie
Nov 7th, 2002, 03:46 PM
I cannot believe that Linsdey lost that match. What is her problem? I felt like pulling her through the TV screen and beating the crap out of her. Maybe she is excited about her upcoming wedding. Hey but that's not until next year. I do not know what happen to her maybe she did not want to face Venus again.

mishar
Nov 7th, 2002, 04:05 PM
Struggling through close matches has never been Lindsay's forte, has it?
Correct me if I'm wrong, Lindsay fans, but it strikes me that when she wins, she wins pretty easily, and when she gets into a tough battle against a top player, she often comes out on the wrong end.
I remember the comeback she made against Martina at Indian Wells in 2000, but even that seemed so easy, down a break in the second set, she won the next ten games or so.
The one time (in the last three years) she beat Serena, she creamed her, and the other matches, while often close, Lindsay lost.
Her three grand slams she won without the loss of a set I believe.

Her only "comeback" victory at a major event that I can think of was against Pierce in the QF of the 99 USOpen.
I remember back in 1998 she won some tough close matches, but since then there seems to have been more she lost than won.
Too bad considering her incredible talent at tennis.

victory1
Nov 7th, 2002, 04:09 PM
niratti, ignore selesrules- he's or her mission on this board is to make Seles look good by demeaning other players accomplishments. What he or she don't seem to understand, Seles's career accomplishments stands up on their on merits.

Anyway, I really thought Lindsay would win, I turn the tv after she went up 3-1 in the 2nd set only to check back to find Seles serving to send it to a tiebreaker. I again thought that Lindsay would win during the tiebreaker. Lindsay had many chances to close out the match, so credit to Seles for being mentally tough, which is hard to do since the last time you beat the apponent across the net was in 1997.

selesrules
Nov 7th, 2002, 04:11 PM
What did I say??? I am defending Lindsay everywhere in all the threads. Get a life or read before you write, nobody is complaining about me.

TSequoia01
Nov 7th, 2002, 04:55 PM
Lindsay has absolutely poor stamina. She cannot play two hard sets against quality opposition. She started the first set playing hard, running down balls and actually looked quick (for her) on the court. But as the games mounted in the second set, Ray Charles could see the fatigue on Lindsay's face. She lost a lot of weight but is far from being fit. Absolutely was lacking energy. We were screaming at Monica to not hit the ball to Lindsay. To just make her move to it and an error was guaranteed. :cool:

Doris Loeffel
Nov 7th, 2002, 05:00 PM
Hmmm as they were playing for so long I had the pleasure to see the last one and a half sets starting at 4:3 Lindsay when I'm not mistaken. Had no clue that she's been leading 3:0 in the second at that point. But I have to say I've hardly never seen Lindsay play so hmmm can I say listles? She may have dominated the game before but at that time it was really Monica pushing and Lindsay giving up. Sorry Lindsay fans but that's the impression I got. She really was lacking fighting spirit from the time I started to watch the match. And having 3 MP in TB and not making any of them I guess it says it all.

Just hope that Monica will be the same fighter agaist Venus.

selesrules
Nov 7th, 2002, 05:04 PM
For those who saw the match, what was Monica's reaction at the end?

Also on the match point (when Monica won), what kind of shot was it (winner from Monica, error from Lindsay in net, wide forehand, etc.)?

CoryAnnAvants#1
Nov 7th, 2002, 05:32 PM
Lindsay hit a backhand well long on match point, and in typical Monica fashion, she did a very quiet fist pump and looked up to Mike Sell.

treufreund
Nov 7th, 2002, 05:39 PM
Monica has NEVER had a MENTAL BLOCK against Martina! They have had numerous tough matches, some of which went Moni's way and some went Martina's way. Martina dominated Testud and ASV and knows how to play certain players who can give others trouble. She knows how to play Monica and vice versa. When Martina is playing her best she makes Monica move for many many shots in long rallies and opens up the court with angles. Lindsay on the other hand made an error often early or could not get to Monica's shots because Lindsay hits hard and Monica redirected her pace. Lindsay also knows how to play Monica but Monica was better yesterday. This "mental block" theory against Martina is yet another attempt to discredit Martina. :rolleyes: Oh and btw Martina's serves are not 40 mph.

selesrules
Nov 7th, 2002, 06:00 PM
sorry, her second serves are at 50-60 mph :rolleyes:
Anyways Monica always served bad against Hingis and she always returned horrible against her, and these 2 aspects had nothing to do with Hingis moving her around and had everything to do with Monica's "mental" state. She kind of in the past had "too much respect for Hingis" and always overhit. Of course I give a lot of credit to Hingis for causing this and she deserves her wins, however in the last few years Monica has shown that she doesn't have this problem anymore and she rarely shows up on the court against Hingis and plays like a novice club player hitting homeruns or at the bottom of the net and losing 6-1, 6-0. Those days are over because mentally she's now approaching her matches differently and she has realized that she's the one in control of the match and doesn't have a mental block.

selesrules
Nov 7th, 2002, 06:02 PM
Thanks Bradshaw!

joao
Nov 7th, 2002, 06:06 PM
Nobody beats Monica 10 times in a row ... very funny Selesrules! 9 times in a row is not that much different than 10 times in a row I believe! Lindsay will still be the one who achieved that!

selesrules
Nov 7th, 2002, 06:08 PM
yeah but 10 times just looks horrible. For example nobody cares about 8 year anniversary of a movie or 13 year anniversary, but when it comes a 10 year anniversary then it's a big deal. It's an important number, I'm sure you know what I mean.

GoDominique
Nov 7th, 2002, 10:41 PM
I'm aware that it's depressing to waste a huge lead and match-points and having to re-focus for another set. I have done these things myself. :rolleyes:
The point is: Until 3-4 in the 3rd, Lindsay had only lost her serve ONCE (at 3-1 in the 2nd). She had won her other service-games pretty easily. So it's completely UNPROFESSIONAL to give away the last 2 games without fighting, and that's what Lindsay did.
Also, she has done that too many times now since her comeback. Rubin, Maleeva, Schnyder ... all the same scorelines. Even against Serena she had set-points. After she lost them, she gave away the last 2 games.

Lindsay has to question her attitude and commitment to the game IMO. It's not professional right now.

selesrules
Nov 7th, 2002, 11:23 PM
All I know is that you guys have to give credit to Monica. Even if you ignore the match points, Lindsay was actually leading 6-3, 3-0. This was a "typical" score for Lindsay against Monica in the last few years and she never choked before, it was nothing different this time everything was going as usual. HOWEVER, this time Monica fought very hard and raised her level until the end. I'm sure at 6-3, 3-0 Lindsay didn't start choking like "Omg I'm leading" because she's beaten Monica for the last 9 times! She was continuing to play but Monica was able to raise the level and fight like a true champion!

wongqks
Nov 7th, 2002, 11:27 PM
I think Monica play well is a factor, but Lindsay playing not as good as she should is another factor as well

TSequoia01
Nov 7th, 2002, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by selesrules
All I know is that you guys have to give credit to Monica. Even if you ignore the match points, Lindsay was actually leading 6-3, 3-0. This was a "typical" score for Lindsay against Monica in the last few years and she never choked before, it was nothing different this time everything was going as usual. HOWEVER, this time Monica fought very hard and raised her level until the end. I'm sure at 6-3, 3-0 Lindsay didn't start choking like "Omg I'm leading" because she's beaten Monica for the last 9 times! She was continuing to play but Monica was able to raise the level and fight like a true champion!

Monica deserves nothing but credit. She had to persevere, she had to hit the shots, and deal with the tremedous pressures she was facing. :cool:

GoDominique
Nov 7th, 2002, 11:40 PM
selesrules, I think most posters (including myself) have given Monica credit. But there are always 2 sides, and the other side is that Lindsay wasted a lead.
And this thread is supposed to discuss Lindsay's responsibility for this match.

selesrules
Nov 7th, 2002, 11:44 PM
well the thing is, there are thousands and thousands of matches where a person comes from behind. The same happened to Hingis at the Australien Open (4 match points), the same happened to Capriati against Venus (8 match points), the same happened to Serena against Seles (6 match points), and it goes on and on and on, sometimes it's set points, or match points or big leads or whatever, it's part of the game. Seles also has lost many close 3 set matches in the last few years when she won the first set against top players. I think it's unfair to Lindsay to make such a big deal out of it, sure it's disappointing, but it has happened many many times to each player!

GoDominique
Nov 7th, 2002, 11:49 PM
True. But this time, it fits perfectly into the picture of Lindsay's current mentality and recent results. There is a pattern, and this one was just the best (or worst) example so far.
And well, there are NOT thousands of matches where someone saved 7 or more match-points. That are only a handful.

selesrules
Nov 7th, 2002, 11:53 PM
Anyways I just think that you guys are being too hard on Lindsay. So she had a little bit of trouble in closing out some matches in the last few weeks, but now the year is over and I have no doubt that she will bounce back next year, I don't see it as a huge problem but rather a little slump.

GoDominique
Nov 7th, 2002, 11:55 PM
I hope you are right.

Dawn Marie
Nov 7th, 2002, 11:55 PM
I think Lindsay choked while Seles went for broke. Those factors imho caused Seles to win and Lindsay to lose. They both played solid tennis though, and somebody just had to lose. Lindsay will be back, stronger then ever in 2003.

AUSBOY
Nov 8th, 2002, 12:21 AM
GoDominique give Lindsay a break! She has missed most of the year and hasnt played much, she is still finding her game and htat includes the mental part as well, its not something you can just recover and get back instantly. Im sure by mid 2003 Lindsay will be back to her true form and hopefully in the top 4 where she belongs

TSequoia01
Nov 8th, 2002, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by GoDominique
True. But this time, it fits perfectly into the picture of Lindsay's current mentality and recent results. There is a pattern, and this one was just the best (or worst) example so far.
And well, there are NOT thousands of matches where someone saved 7 or more match-points. That are only a handful.

I agree GoDominique, this discussion is not about any one match. It is more about Lindsay's performance since her return. One could easily read conclusions based on all her 10 or 11 matches. Serena has only played 12 in the last year. These results could easily be classified injury based or maybe something else. Same with Hingis. Personally, I feel players are evolving. Lindsay's low energy game could now be threatened. Those huge serves and groundstrokes may not be enough any longer. Great court coverage, energy, and stamina may now be needed to be the very best. Just over powering players may no longer work at least with the elite. I've always felt that Lindsay exerted the least amount of energy on the court of any top player. In other words her body was never use to such stress. She could be in some trouble. :cool:

joaco
Nov 8th, 2002, 02:21 AM
I personally don't think that Lindsay should worry. She had a very good comeback and great results!! Let us not forget that even if she had 7 match points, she was playing against most likely the greatest fighter that the game has ever seen: Monica Seles. It's not as if Lindsay couldn't close out the match against a nobody. Monica has made such comebacks about a million times in her career including Serena, Venus, Hingis, Navratilova, Graf, Capriati, etc! Linsday wasnt' an exception.

thanks selesfan. it may actually sound stupid, but those words actually made me feel a little bit better. It just happen, it happened to Serena last year with 6 mp and look her now, she's at the Nš 1 position!