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View Full Version : What has held Venus back from winning the Australian Open and Roland Garros?


rimon
Jul 8th, 2011, 09:26 AM
Why has she never managed to win either? Also, do you think that Serena would regret winning the 2003 Australian Open, as she has 5, and it seems like that may have been Venus's only ever chance to win.

Pops Maellard
Jul 8th, 2011, 09:30 AM
Well she never plays a proper warmup for AO and she seemed to do better in the past when she did.

As for FO who knows. :lol:

Smitten
Jul 8th, 2011, 10:21 AM
Her second serve, lack of court sense, lack of tactics, lack of adjustments, pathetic technique, overall game, etc.

moby
Jul 8th, 2011, 10:34 AM
Her second serve, lack of court sense, lack of tactics, lack of adjustments, pathetic technique, overall game, etc.Basically.

Apoleb
Jul 8th, 2011, 10:36 AM
Serena Williams.

volta
Jul 8th, 2011, 10:39 AM
Serena as she was the one who beat her on both finals

Venus has always been a spring/summer type of player, more often than not her form always started to kick in during that part of the season. She also chokes alot more over there

Venus' record at the Aussie before her ab injury was never that bad .

and BTW You are a tad bit obsessed with this sisters aren't you? :o

Chip.
Jul 8th, 2011, 10:45 AM
Well at one point, it was Serena in incredible form that stopped her.

However, lately she's royally fucked up her chances :o No excuses really. I thought she would win AO'09. :sobbing:

Choked it away against CSN and Li the last two years. As for FO, haven't a clue :lol: most likely what Smitten said.

KBlade
Jul 8th, 2011, 10:53 AM
Her general stubborness to adapt her game to different surfaces, passiveness in tight situations and her head :cuckoo:

Alejandrawrrr
Jul 8th, 2011, 11:01 AM
Mentality. After a certain point it became evident that Venus is not going to be breaking ground any time in the future. IF she ever wins a big title again it will be Wimbledon(her last chance may have passed,) the US Open, or the London Olympics, where she is(or was...) mentally capable. She really SHOULD have won RG once, as she was one of the better clay courters of the past decade(mainly late late 90s-early 00s,) but she could never bring that to Roland Garros. As for why she hasn't won AO, I really have to chalk it up to mentality, as she was undoubtedly one of the best hardcourters. At any rate, she's a fast court player, so it's no surprise that even in her best years she was at her best during the second half of the year.

timafi
Jul 8th, 2011, 11:03 AM
she doesn't slide into balls
you can drop shot Venus to death
doesn't have the strength either to win long rallies for 7 matches
there are MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH better players on clay and for me that RG run she had that year was a fluke and I never saw her winning it:shrug:

as for the Aussie;I don't know:help: :lol:

debby
Jul 8th, 2011, 11:11 AM
Serena Williams.

Well if Baby Anci plays much better this year than in RG 2008, I think even Trashnus could have beaten Baby Ancy in that tournament :oh:

Venus has won a lot of clay titles, Serena beat her in her only RG final... but let alone that, Venus struggled in RG. She lacks of consistency in her game basically, except in 2000-2002. At her peak, Capriati and Serena were there, so... Who did beat Venus in RG 2001 btw ? and in 2000 ?

KBlade
Jul 8th, 2011, 11:18 AM
Well if Baby Anci plays much better this year than in RG 2008, I think even Trashnus could have beaten Baby Ancy in that tournament :oh:

Venus has won a lot of clay titles, Serena beat her in her only RG final... but let alone that, Venus struggled in RG. She lacks of consistency in her game basically, except in 2000-2002. At her peak, Capriati and Serena were there, so... Who did beat Venus in RG 2001 btw ? and in 2000 ?

I think it was Schett and Hingis.

bandabou
Jul 8th, 2011, 11:24 AM
:lol: Rimon, Rimon..this is like asking: Why did Court win only 3 Wimbledons?! :lol:

As for the question..at the Oz open, Serena obviously..and then she's had some stinkers there too, losing to Lisa Raymond and then Pironkova?! :help:

RG? Odd..she's kinda good claycourter, just didn't get it done mentally.

Shivank17
Jul 8th, 2011, 11:42 AM
Well Vee can surely win the AO,but she hasn't been consistent of late.
FO,is not for Vee.

Shivank17
Jul 8th, 2011, 11:42 AM
Well Vee can surely win the AO,but she hasn't been consistent of late.
FO,is not for Vee.

rimon
Jul 8th, 2011, 12:14 PM
:lol: Rimon, Rimon..this is like asking: Why did Court win only 3 Wimbledons?! :lol:

As for the question..at the Oz open, Serena obviously..and then she's had some stinkers there too, losing to Lisa Raymond and then Pironkova?! :help:

RG? Odd..she's kinda good claycourter, just didn't get it done mentally.

:rolleyes: What does Margaret have to do with this? 3 Wimbledons is a good accomplishment, isn't it?

This thread was made out of genuine curiosity, derived from the thread about Martin/Venus/Lindsay.

Aaron.
Jul 8th, 2011, 12:36 PM
Venus does not do well at the french because her lack of variety. She never slides or hits drop shots and her shots are relatively flat.

bandabou
Jul 8th, 2011, 12:57 PM
:rolleyes: What does Margaret have to do with this? 3 Wimbledons is a good accomplishment, isn't it?

This thread was made out of genuine curiosity, derived from the thread about Martin/Venus/Lindsay.

Great accomplishment for sure...my question was out of curiosity too. I see 11 Oz opens, and then only 3 Wimbledons.. relax, you ain't the only one who can ask questions.

The Dawntreader
Jul 8th, 2011, 01:00 PM
Her second serve, lack of court sense, lack of tactics, lack of adjustments, pathetic technique, overall game, etc.

Hardly.

rimon
Jul 8th, 2011, 01:05 PM
Great accomplishment for sure...my question was out of curiosity too. I see 11 Oz opens, and then only 3 Wimbledons.. relax, you ain't the only one who can ask questions.

It's funny how some players really seem to prefer/do better (it's hard to say what is the cause and effect here, possibly both), at particular slams, isn't it? We see it in recent times too, like Serena at AO, Henin at RG, Venus at W, and Clijsters at USO.

Stamp Paid
Jul 8th, 2011, 01:12 PM
Every player is not meant to win all 4 slams.

spartanfan
Jul 8th, 2011, 01:13 PM
I think Venus does badly at the AO because she rarely plays tournaments in the fall after the US Open and she does not give herself time to find her form come late January. She basicall goes from early September until early January without playing very much tennis. As opposed to Serena who usually does well at the Australian if she's played a couple of tournaments after the US Open in the fall.
I think they both have failed at the FO because they don't play enough matches on the red clay leading up to Paris. They should both play in some of the smaller clay tournaments leading up to Rome and Madrid.

hingisGOAT
Jul 8th, 2011, 01:17 PM
The AO is a slow high-bouncing hard-court that exposes Venus' rudimentary technique. In her physical and mental prime she was trashed 6-1 6-1 by one of the Australian Open GOATs. That says it all really.

Alejandrawrrr
Jul 8th, 2011, 01:21 PM
It's funny how some players really seem to prefer/do better (it's hard to say what is the cause and effect here, possibly both), at particular slams, isn't it? We see it in recent times too, like Serena at AO, Henin at RG, Venus at W, and Clijsters at USO.

When that happens a lot of it, I feel, has to do with their reception. Admittedly neither Williams sister are exactly fan-favorites, but at the slam that they have five of they tend to be most well-received. There is zero love for Venus at AO(They booed her off the court as she retired with injury that would take her out for five months :lol:) or FO(They just don't care too much for her,) but until last year I'd say, the Wimbledon crowd has always been kind to her. They even seemed fairly supportive of her as she was being pushed to the limit and beyond by an underdog in the form of Date-Krumm, which normally will NOT happen anywhere else. Everyone knows Kim is the overwhelming crowd favorite at the US Open whenever she plays. Serena has stated(I believe in her 09 acceptance speech) that Australia was her favorite slam because the crowd always supports her, even more than at the US Open(she also likes Australia in general, which is why she usually plays Sydney every year when she normally can't even be bothered to show up for some P5s/Mandatories :lol: Admittedly I haven't seen that many of Justine's matches at RG/interviews regarding the tournament, but I'm pretty sure she was always favored there as well. Players might insist that they don't let the crowd get to them, but I'm pretty sure you get a little boost when playing in a support environment.

Malkmus_
Jul 8th, 2011, 01:25 PM
Every player is not meant to win all 4 slams.

This.

The Kaz
Jul 8th, 2011, 01:37 PM
Serena as she was the one who beat her on both finals

Venus has always been a spring/summer type of player, more often than not her form always started to kick in during that part of the season. She also chokes alot more over there

Venus' record at the Aussie before her ab injury was never that bad .

and BTW You are a tad bit obsessed with this sisters aren't you? :o

It's Summer in Australia when the AO occurs :oh:

Please don't use term like Spring/Summer because it doesn't apply to everybody :o Say June-August period instead ;)

rimon
Jul 8th, 2011, 01:46 PM
When that happens a lot of it, I feel, has to do with their reception. Admittedly neither Williams sister are exactly fan-favorites, but at the slam that they have five of they tend to be most well-received. There is zero love for Venus at AO(They booed her off the court as she retired with injury that would take her out for five months :lol:) or FO(They just don't care too much for her,) but until last year I'd say, the Wimbledon crowd has always been kind to her. They even seemed fairly supportive of her as she was being pushed to the limit and beyond by an underdog in the form of Date-Krumm, which normally will NOT happen anywhere else. Everyone knows Kim is the overwhelming crowd favorite at the US Open whenever she plays. Serena has stated(I believe in her 09 acceptance speech) that Australia was her favorite slam because the crowd always supports her, even more than at the US Open(she also likes Australia in general, which is why she usually plays Sydney every year when she normally can't even be bothered to show up for some P5s/Mandatories :lol: Admittedly I haven't seen that many of Justine's matches at RG/interviews regarding the tournament, but I'm pretty sure she was always favored there as well. Players might insist that they don't let the crowd get to them, but I'm pretty sure you get a little boost when playing in a support environment.

:worship: This is all very, very true. Justine was loved by the French, in every match that she played. Go figure why Kim is the US favourite though? Granted, she isn't as loved as Jennifer was, but why does it seem that she gets more support than the WS and Lindsay ever did? :confused:

bandabou
Jul 8th, 2011, 02:25 PM
It's funny how some players really seem to prefer/do better (it's hard to say what is the cause and effect here, possibly both), at particular slams, isn't it? We see it in recent times too, like Serena at AO, Henin at RG, Venus at W, and Clijsters at USO.

Yeah...indeed. Only by Court it does stick out..it's almost half of her majors.

kiwifan
Jul 8th, 2011, 02:31 PM
her sister. :yawn:

tennisfan5
Jul 8th, 2011, 02:40 PM
At the AO-

1998-2003: losses to Davenport (X2), Hingis, Seles, Serena; 1F, 1 SF, 3 QF

2004-2011: losses to Raymond, Molik, Pironkova, Ivanovic, Suarez Navarro, Li Na, Petkovic (ret.); 2 QF, 1 4TH, 2 3RD, 1 2ND, 1 1ST

At the FO:

1 FR, 4 QF, 3 4TH, 4 3RD, 1 2ND, 1 1ST

Losses to Tauziat, Hingis, Schwartz, Sanchez-Vicario, Schett, Serena, Zvonareva, Myskina, Karatancheva, Vaidisova, Jankovic, Pennetta, Szavay, Petrova.

Definitely a drop off at the AO; FO has always been spotty. Clay just does not suit her game. AO she should be doing better than she has been. Hasn't won the USO since 2002 either, but she's lost to eventual champ or top players a bunch of times

dsanders06
Jul 8th, 2011, 02:43 PM
It basically comes down to her poor technique. On slow hardcourts and clay, players are able to chase down her big groundstrokes and put them back into play, which usually prompts an error from Venus before long due to her poor technique. The difference on grass is that, as it bounces so low, Venus's big groundstrokes usually can't be retrieved, helped by the fact that very few players are able to move well on grass - meaning the rallies don't get extended and Venus's poor technique in long rallies doesn't get exposed. When she runs into the odd exception who CAN defend well on grass (e.g. Pironkova), Venus comes unstuck.

Venus herself is also a very poor defender off of grass - she can pretty much just throw a nothing ball back into play when she's on the defensive - she doesn't have the court smarts to hit it back at an awkward angle like Serena can. If you get Venus on the run on hardcourt or clay, 9 times out of 10 you've won the point.

Aaron.
Jul 8th, 2011, 03:24 PM
Everyone says poor technique but technique is relative anyway. I think it's her lack of variety. Serena can hit drop shots, bh slices, kick serves, topspin while Venus will give you the same ball and let you get into a rhythm (Venus's BH slice is cringe worthy, Ok Serena's isn't that good eitter but Venus's slice sits up very high) Ever since Vee has been my fave I can count on one hand how many drop shot's she has hit and I've been following her for about 5-6 years :lol:

Aaron.
Jul 8th, 2011, 03:27 PM
It basically comes down to her poor technique. On slow hardcourts and clay, players are able to chase down her big groundstrokes and put them back into play, which usually prompts an error from Venus before long due to her poor technique. The difference on grass is that, as it bounces so low, Venus's big groundstrokes usually can't be retrieved, helped by the fact that very few players are able to move well on grass - meaning the rallies don't get extended and Venus's poor technique in long rallies doesn't get exposed. When she runs into the odd exception who CAN defend well on grass (e.g. Pironkova), Venus comes unstuck.

Venus herself is also a very poor defender off of grass - she can pretty much just throw a nothing ball back into play when she's on the defensive - she doesn't have the court smarts to hit it back at an awkward angle like Serena can. If you get Venus on the run on hardcourt or clay, 9 times out of 10 you've won the point. This. She hits the same ball and really can't play defensively at all. Serena can throw a heavy topspin ball or moonball to get back into the point where as Venus just gets it over

moby
Jul 8th, 2011, 03:41 PM
Everyone says poor technique but technique is relative anyway. I think it's her lack of variety. Serena can hit drop shots, bh slices, kick serves, topspin while Venus will give you the same ball and let you get into a rhythm (Venus's BH slice is cringe worthy, Ok Serena's isn't that good eitter but Venus's slice sits up very high) Ever since Vee has been my fave I can count on one hand how many drop shot's she has hit and I've been following her for about 5-6 years :lol:She used to hit a lot of dropshots in 2000-01 when she was dominating. See the Miami 2001 final where she saved 8 MPs against Capriati.

SoBlackAndBlue
Jul 8th, 2011, 03:50 PM
Her second serve, lack of court sense, lack of tactics, lack of adjustments, pathetic technique, overall game, etc.

Serena Williams.

Both of these are credited answers.

It basically comes down to her poor technique. On slow hardcourts and clay, players are able to chase down her big groundstrokes and put them back into play, which usually prompts an error from Venus before long due to her poor technique. The difference on grass is that, as it bounces so low, Venus's big groundstrokes usually can't be retrieved, helped by the fact that very few players are able to move well on grass - meaning the rallies don't get extended and Venus's poor technique in long rallies doesn't get exposed. When she runs into the odd exception who CAN defend well on grass (e.g. Pironkova), Venus comes unstuck.

Venus herself is also a very poor defender off of grass - she can pretty much just throw a nothing ball back into play when she's on the defensive - she doesn't have the court smarts to hit it back at an awkward angle like Serena can. If you get Venus on the run on hardcourt or clay, 9 times out of 10 you've won the point.

This is really the biggest weakness of her game. I literally can't recall her ever hitting a squash shot or a slice in order to get back into a point. Just lame slapshots. Unless the other player backs off and lets the rally turn neutral again, she's basically toast.

The Dawntreader
Jul 8th, 2011, 03:56 PM
She used to hit a lot of dropshots in 2000-01 when she was dominating. See the Miami 2001 final where she saved 8 MPs against Capriati.

She hit many dropshots during the Wimbledon 2000 tourny too. Two of them came at pivotal times in the final vs Lindsay.

I always feel her preparation has been lacking going into the AO. She never habituates herself to the surface, and often looks rusty/out of synch, and thus loses in rather dire fashion generally. Even in 2001, where she was scaling her respective peak, she never bothered to play a singles warm-up, and looked ridiculously 10 steps behind everyone else the entire tournament, almost losing to that GOAT monster Coetzer in the QF's, before getting schooled by Hingis. The only time Venus has looked prepared was the 2003 AO, but IMO that was peaking at the right place, right time, rather than any outstanding preparation in readiness for the event.

The French was a matter of catching it while she was still in her prime (1999-2006), and she failed to do so. It was always going to get harder from 2007 onwards, with her gradual decline in stamina, athleticism, and her groundgame, which was still functional on clay in her heyday. It's only in recent years, that the surface has been a challenge for Venus physically.

DefyingGravity
Jul 8th, 2011, 04:00 PM
I think Venus does badly at the AO because she rarely plays tournaments in the fall after the US Open and she does not give herself time to find her form come late January. She basicall goes from early September until early January without playing very much tennis. As opposed to Serena who usually does well at the Australian if she's played a couple of tournaments after the US Open in the fall.
I think they both have failed at the FO because they don't play enough matches on the red clay leading up to Paris. They should both play in some of the smaller clay tournaments leading up to Rome and Madrid.

Doesn't mean jack. I think Serena played Charleston, Rome, Berlin a few times and once she won Roland Garros (2002) and then she lost to Srebotnik (2008), and then lost to Justine. She played in '07...just Rome and made it to the quarters; she went on that horrible losing streak in 2009 and then made the quarters.

And Venus has really great results in Rome....but can be piss poor at Roland Garros. It's really just temperament with the Williams sisters on clay.

rimon
Jul 8th, 2011, 04:07 PM
Yeah...indeed. Only by Court it does stick out..it's almost half of her majors.

That's actually incorrect. It's most apparent with Navratilova:

9/18 = 50%. Navratilova.
11/24 = 46%. Court.

Renalicious
Jul 8th, 2011, 04:09 PM
Her second serve, lack of court sense, lack of tactics, lack of adjustments, pathetic technique, overall game, etc.

Pretty much :sobbing: at least, in the last couple of years.

rimon
Jul 8th, 2011, 04:09 PM
Everyone says poor technique but technique is relative anyway. I think it's her lack of variety. Serena can hit drop shots, bh slices, kick serves, topspin while Venus will give you the same ball and let you get into a rhythm (Venus's BH slice is cringe worthy, Ok Serena's isn't that good eitter but Venus's slice sits up very high) Ever since Vee has been my fave I can count on one hand how many drop shot's she has hit and I've been following her for about 5-6 years :lol:

No recent player has really had a good slice, except Henin, Mauresmo, and surprisingly, Capriati.

rimon
Jul 8th, 2011, 04:14 PM
She hit many dropshots during the Wimbledon 2000 tourny too. Two of them came at pivotal times in the final vs Lindsay.

I always feel her preparation has been lacking going into the AO. She never habituates herself to the surface, and often looks rusty/out of synch, and thus loses in rather dire fashion generally. Even in 2001, where she was scaling her respective peak, she never bothered to play a singles warm-up, and looked ridiculously 10 steps behind everyone else the entire tournament, almost losing to that GOAT monster Coetzer in the QF's, before getting schooled by Hingis. The only time Venus has looked prepared was the 2003 AO, but IMO that was peaking at the right place, right time, rather than any outstanding preparation in readiness for the event.

The French was a matter of catching it while she was still in her prime (1999-2006), and she failed to do so. It was always going to get harder from 2007 onwards, with her gradual decline in stamina, athleticism, and her groundgame, which was still functional on clay in her heyday. It's only in recent years, that the surface has been a challenge for Venus physically.

It's amazing how different her USO and AO records are. Okay, the AO is slower, but they are both still hard courts. Let's look at her results there post 2003 (which, by the way, as you said, is by far her best ever performance there):

2004 - lost to Raymond.
2005 - lost to Molik, although she was in the form of her life.
2006 - lost to Pironkova.
2007 - did not play.
2008 - lost to Ivanovic.
2009 - lost to Suarez Navarro.
2010 - lost to Li. Like 2005, not a dreadful loss, but the way that she lost was abysmal.
2011 - lost to Petkovic, although we can hardly count that.

Can you imagine her losing to Raymond, Molik, Ivanovic or Suarez Navarro at the USO? NO WAY.

Sammo
Jul 8th, 2011, 04:15 PM
Australian Open --> Attitude
Roland Garros --> Aptitude

SoBlackAndBlue
Jul 8th, 2011, 04:18 PM
Perhaps the better question is what has held Venus back from winning a non-Wimbledon major or any sort in the past decade.

Sombrerero loco
Jul 8th, 2011, 04:18 PM
lol she never take it seriously the AO and she sucks on clay so...=S

dsanders06
Jul 8th, 2011, 04:18 PM
Don't I remember her saying a few months ago that the AO and RG were "within her reach" and that winning a mixed doubles Slam would be harder for her? :happy:

Leo St
Jul 8th, 2011, 04:26 PM
Her second serve, lack of court sense, lack of tactics, lack of adjustments, pathetic technique, overall game, etc.

you should spare the world your existence

rimon
Jul 8th, 2011, 04:30 PM
Don't I remember her saying a few months ago that the AO and RG were "within her reach" and that winning a mixed doubles Slam would be harder for her? :happy:

I remember that too. :spit:

bandabou
Jul 8th, 2011, 04:31 PM
Vee just didn't evelope her game. Bring new things, adapting to the different surfaces...and I think her technical flaws can be exposed much much easier than Serena's. Plus Vee having anemia, it's odd why she often choses to engage in all these longlasting rallies.

At the Oz open? She just never came prepared.
At RG? The surface doesn't agree with her game.

bandabou
Jul 8th, 2011, 04:33 PM
That's actually incorrect. It's most apparent with Navratilova:

9/18 = 50%. Navratilova.
11/24 = 46%. Court.

Yeah, but Wimbledon is Wimbledon..that's why no asteriks for Martina. When you win 11 oz opens, but can't manage even half of this at Wimbledon? Oh la la..

pla
Jul 8th, 2011, 04:57 PM
It's amazing how different her USO and AO records are. Okay, the AO is slower, but they are both still hard courts. Let's look at her results there post 2003 (which, by the way, as you said, is by far her best ever performance there):

....

Can you imagine her losing to Raymond, Molik, Ivanovic or Suarez Navarro at the USO? NO WAY.

But you seem to forget :scratch: that AO was rebound ace until 2007 (someone correct me for the year) which was different from the hard court in USO.

Alejandrawrrr
Jul 8th, 2011, 05:02 PM
:worship: This is all very, very true. Justine was loved by the French, in every match that she played. Go figure why Kim is the US favourite though? Granted, she isn't as loved as Jennifer was, but why does it seem that she gets more support than the WS and Lindsay ever did? :confused:

I mean for one, she's totally inoffensive(bar TF "Madusah/Seaweed" jokes,) very media friendly... I can't recall a time OTHER than maybe the seaweed saga(which I think is just silly) where she's said anything in the pressers or done anything on court that people can take offense by. Because of this, at worst the casual tennis fan might not be a fan of her, and at best they'll simply adore her. You won't have many people particularly against her like they might for the other big 3 for example. More importantly, she(and Lindsay IMO) are the perfect blend of champion/underdog. They've won just enough that the public can admire them and want to be like them, and yet they were so often denied opportunities by Venus/Serena/Justine that many of us feel we can(or at least would like to) relate to them. That and she was Aussie!Kim and Jersey!Kim :shrug:

A little OT, I find it amusing that Serena Williams has faced both Kim Clijsters and Maria Sharapova in the semis of the Australian Open, saving three MPs against both of them in the third set. I remember when she fought off that third MP against Maria(who was a media darling herself, especially at this time, as she was still only seventeen, and fresh off the heels of a Wimbledon and YEC win,) there was a roaring applause. Meanwhile, and I certainly hope I'm not exaggerating, as Serena came back from an even BIGGER deficit from 1-5 down, the air was almost somber at times. Quite simply, that crowd did NOT want her to squeeze out that win at all :lol: Again I haven't seen too much of Kim at RG either, so I'm not entirely sure what her reception is like there, but it's just as good in Australia as it is at the USO.

Alejandrawrrr
Jul 8th, 2011, 05:03 PM
But you seem to forget :scratch: that AO was rebound ace until 2007 (someone correct me for the year) which was different from the hard court in USO.

2008.

Justin
Jul 8th, 2011, 05:34 PM
Serena as she was the one who beat her on both finals


She only made one final.

shoryuken
Jul 8th, 2011, 05:48 PM
She only made one final.

Venus reach the final of the French in 2002 and the final of Australian in 2003.

tennisbum79
Jul 8th, 2011, 05:58 PM
Well she never plays a proper warmup for AO and she seemed to do better in the past when she did.
Correct. She nevers seem to put the necessary effort in time and physical preparation.
I know it is very close XMASS season in the USA, and it very cold at that time.
But she lives in Florida.

As for FO who knows. :lol:
It seems to me she lost belief she can win.

darrinbaker00
Jul 8th, 2011, 06:02 PM
What has held Venus back from winning the Australian Open and Roland Garros? Her inability to win seven matches in a row at those tournaments. Next topic, please.

homogenius
Jul 8th, 2011, 06:09 PM
AO : better players than her on the surface :surface:
FO : As darrinbaker so nicely pointed out, you have to win 7 matches in a row.Venus can play on clay, but at one point or another she always met a player (not necessarily a great claycourter but one able to put balls in court)exposing her fagile technic.Plus her serve is nowhere as efficient as it is on fast surfaces etc...

GoofyDuck
Jul 8th, 2011, 06:11 PM
She had the talent and the ability to win all 4 Grand slams.. just not mentally tough enough to dig it out :(

especially all those early round losses at RG are unexplainable in the Safina/Ivanovic era :p

shoryuken
Jul 8th, 2011, 06:15 PM
Why has she never managed to win either? Also, do you think that Serena would regret winning the 2003 Australian Open, as she has 5, and it seems like that may have been Venus's only ever chance to win.

No way will she regret winning the Serena Slam :lol:

LightWarrior
Jul 8th, 2011, 06:28 PM
Venus reach the final of the French in 2002 and the final of Australian in 2003.

How in hell has Serena been responsible for Venus consistently sucking at OA and RG apart from those 2 finals ?

Gilas.
Jul 8th, 2011, 06:29 PM
She tanked these 2 MM slams to focus on winning WImbledon :rolleyes:

SerenaClijsters
Jul 8th, 2011, 06:32 PM
Mental instability and unwillingness to change her tactics.

Stonerpova
Jul 8th, 2011, 06:37 PM
Her strokes are technically a mess, so when she second guesses herself they fly all over the place. She also goes into this listless state when she loses confidence and hands matches away on a plate.

Helen Lawson
Jul 8th, 2011, 06:52 PM
I think a lot of it was mental, the slam she likes the most she has won the most. She usually bored out of mind at AO and French Open and has for most of her career, but played so well in 03 and 02 she could make a final even not into it.

She has quite a nice clay resume, I don't buy her game doesn't work on that surface, but for some reason never rose to the occasion at French Open.

vixter
Jul 8th, 2011, 06:59 PM
The AO is a slow high-bouncing hard-court that exposes Venus' rudimentary technique. In her physical and mental prime she was trashed 6-1 6-1 by one of the Australian Open GOATs. That says it all really.

Yet Hingis was mentally drained for the final,

maybe more due to the incredible QF against Serena than the SF.

spartanfan
Jul 8th, 2011, 07:04 PM
Well it's not from lack of talent. Venus has won just about every other clay court tournament she has played, except the French Open. You don't build that kinda resume by being a slack ass or no-talent. There have been other better clay court players-Grand Slam winners who also never won the French: Hingis? Mauresmo? As for the Australian Open, Venus just doesn't play in enough warm up tournaments or play enough matches to get her match tough for the AO. Look at all the years where Venus pretty much ends her season after the US Open or look at how many times she has qualified for the year end championships, but still skips it. I really think if Venus played 3 or 4 tournaments after the US Open then she would be in much better shape and condition and match tough to go deeper in the draw at the Australian Open. But she just doesnt do it.

spartanfan
Jul 8th, 2011, 07:06 PM
Her strokes are technically a mess, so when she second guesses herself they fly all over the place. She also goes into this listless state when she loses confidence and hands matches away on a plate.

Well they weren't such a mess for her to have won over 40 tour titles and 7 of them being Grand Slams.:lol: And we wont even get into her Grand Slam double titles. You just made yourself look like an ignorant fool with that statement.:lol:

G-Ha
Jul 8th, 2011, 07:22 PM
Venus performed well on the clay warm-up events, particularly during the earlier part of her career, even though her game isn't well-suited to the surface. However, these warm-up events only required her to play well for a few matches over a one week period. The French requires her to play well for 6-7 matches over a two-week period and eventually she breaks down either mentally or physically/technically on this surface. And let's be honest, she had some luck even reaching the one French final she did in 2002. I mean, it doesn't get any better than Clarissa Fernandez in the semis to reach your first French Open final.

pav
Jul 8th, 2011, 07:45 PM
Not all, but some can be put down to the inevitable, and natural aging process of higher vertebrates:sad:

Sammo
Jul 8th, 2011, 08:43 PM
VQd-gNkfWdU
Lisa Raymond def Venus AO 2004 highlights were just uploaded by a user I just found, computertennis, he's got some good matches. And the best part is that Martina Hingis is commentating :hearts:

Leo St
Jul 8th, 2011, 08:45 PM
Not all, but some can be put down to the inevitable, and natural aging process of higher vertebrates:sad:

thanks.. theres always disrespect towards players who continue active after their peak..(its happening to federer on atp) for some tfers everyone should only play for two good years and then retire.. im so glad that my favorite often makes them look like fools

rimon
Jul 8th, 2011, 09:43 PM
Yeah, but Wimbledon is Wimbledon..that's why no asteriks for Martina. When you win 11 oz opens, but can't manage even half of this at Wimbledon? Oh la la..

So if Wimbledon is Wimbledon, does that automatically mean that it doesn't matter who you face, it's more impressive than winning another slam? Eg, is Kvitova's W more impressive than Na Li's RG MERELY because it is Wimbledon?

Go and have a look at the draws. Sure Margaret had some easy draws in some of her AO wins, but do so Navratilova in some of her wins too.

Tennisstar86
Jul 9th, 2011, 12:28 AM
Serena? she would have beat anyone else in the 2002/ 2003 finals she made.......

Venus has never been the same player she was before her stomach injury of 2003..... Shes just has these mental lapses ever sense 2004. Before then she was as Spirlea would say THE Venus Fucking Williams....Now shes just Venus Ebony starr Williams. Still dangerous, but also prone to mental lapses during match.

Stamp Paid
Jul 9th, 2011, 12:48 AM
English, boo (learn it):kiss:Huh? What you talking? :lol:

JCTennisFan
Jul 9th, 2011, 12:51 AM
What has held her back? Well most notably Serena, seeing as how the only Fs she made in those tournies she lost to her sister. Beyond Serena... Justine at the french made life difficult. Jenny at the Aussie. AO and FO both tended to play slower (obviously the clay did, but rebound ace also did somewhat) than W or the US open... and the slower a surface is the worse Venus tends to do.

KBlade
Jul 9th, 2011, 02:11 AM
I really don't believe in this whole "her strokes are a technical mess and prone to breaking down". Her backhand is one of the most solid strokes on tour, and I don't really ever think I've seen a match where her backhand has completely abandoned her. It's always there, and she rarely gives away free points off that wing even now. Her forehand is has a few technical issues, mostly because she tends to use a lot of arm on that stroke, and often finishes the stroke above her head, as opposed to over her shoulder.

You can see the difference between her forehand and Serena's forehand, as Serena's forehand swing pattern is generally more smooth, and you can really see when Serena transitions her full weight into the shot. Apart from this though, I really don't think it's technically unstable like some people appear to be making out. Same goes with her serve, a lot of moving parts, and sometimes more arm than body weight.

However, my biggest belief is that it's not her technical issues that have led to her decline of recent, it's her mental attitude. You can have the best technique in the world, but if you don't believe that you can win, then you're not going to, and no amount of technique will make up for the intangibles. We've seen is numerous times over the years where players with huge amounts of potential, and very few weaknesses in their games (eg: Vaidisova, brilliant service technique and solid and stable groundstrokes) have simply not made it because they crumble mentally when the going gets tough.

A combination of factors has really influenced the drop in Venus's level over the past couple of years. A number of injuries, plus the fact that she is arguably a step slower than she once was has resulted in a number of freak losses that probably would have only happened very rarely a couple of years ago. I think the process really started in 2009, when Venus's knee was heavily taped at both Wimbledon and the US Open, where she had losses inflicted upon her by Serena and Clijsters in matches she probably could have won. These losses have instilled doubt in her mind, and all of a sudden, she starts playing passively towards then ends of matches, such as the Li Quarter-final, presumably because it's been a while since she has won a big match. As a result, she loses, and then we start getting these losses to Pironkova and others on her favourite surfaces. Not because she isn't physically capable of winning, but because she's not mentally ready these days.

Although, she is just coming back off a long break, so I really shouldn't be so hard on her. Hopefully she can make a decent impact at the US Open. If she could win one more slam, it would be truly amazing, and I personally don't think she's going to go away until that happens.

The Witch-king
Jul 9th, 2011, 02:26 AM
I really don't believe in this whole "her strokes are a technical mess and prone to breaking down". Her backhand is one of the most solid strokes on tour, and I don't really ever think I've seen a match where her backhand has completely abandoned her. It's always there, and she rarely gives away free points off that wing even now. Her forehand is has a few technical issues, mostly because she tends to use a lot of arm on that stroke, and often finishes the stroke above her head, as opposed to over her shoulder.


Really? Her BH has been horrible the past few years. Last USO was the worst I've ever seen it... thank Jesus for her forehand though.


A combination of factors has really influenced the drop in Venus's level over the past couple of years. A number of injuries, plus the fact that she is arguably a step slower than she once was has resulted in a number of freak losses that probably would have only happened very rarely a couple of years ago. I think the process really started in 2009, when Venus's knee was heavily taped at both Wimbledon and the US Open, where she had losses inflicted upon her by Venus and Clijsters in matches she probably could have won. These losses have instilled doubt in her mind, and all of a sudden, she starts playing passively towards then ends of matches, such as the Li Quarter-final, presumably because it's been a while since she has won a big match. As a result, she loses, and then we start getting these losses to Pironkova and others on her favourite surfaces. Not because she isn't physically capable of winning, but because she's not mentally ready these days.


I hated that lost.:tape::mad:

The Witch-king
Jul 9th, 2011, 02:27 AM
Huh? What you talking? :lol:

You said everyone isn't meant to win the GS. I guess that means the Serena Slam was undeserved huh? :shrug:

Stamp Paid
Jul 9th, 2011, 02:44 AM
You said everyone isn't meant to win the GS. I guess that means the Serena Slam was undeserved huh? :shrug:Your pressedness is affecting your comprehension skills, gal. :lol: I said every player is not meant to win all four...the thread starter posed the question as if it didn't make sense for VW to have consistently fallen short at the AO and RG.
There obviously are players who are meant to win all 4 slams - the truly great players (Connolly, Court, Graf, Navratilova, Serena Williams). VW is obviously not one of them...:lol:

Graftard
Jul 9th, 2011, 02:55 AM
Because she's a fast surface specialist.

/thread.

KBlade
Jul 9th, 2011, 03:45 AM
Really? Her BH has been horrible the past few years. Last USO was the worst I've ever seen it... thank Jesus for her forehand though.



I hated that lost.:tape::mad:

:lol: Corrected, I meant Serena. Although yeah, she does self-implode a lot, so not completely untrue :help:

EDIT - And while I agree her backhand is hardly the weapon it once was, I still don't think it's an obvious liability. Although she seems to be physically incapable of hitting down the line off that wing, it's still a consistent shot. Everyone knows that if you're going to choose a wing to attack, you're going to attack the Venus forehand, as it's far more likely that shot can go off the boil.

Pops Maellard
Jul 9th, 2011, 03:55 AM
Really? Her BH has been horrible the past few years. Last USO was the worst I've ever seen it... thank Jesus for her forehand though.



I hated that lost.:tape::mad:
Yeah. The difference between her backhand of old and now is like :help:. Apart from her movement this is what's declined the most.

AnomyBC
Jul 9th, 2011, 05:48 AM
Serena Williams.

This is the correct answer :)

silverwhite
Jul 9th, 2011, 07:35 AM
Herself

silverwhite
Jul 9th, 2011, 07:40 AM
IMO, she seems to be unable to win ugly. When she's having an off day... :facepalm:

Just look at her grasscourt season this year and even Wimby 2010. She looked in promising form each time and then threw in a stinker. At Wimby, she was terrific against MJMS and suddenly, completely the opposite against Pironkova :help:

bandabou
Jul 9th, 2011, 08:43 AM
So if Wimbledon is Wimbledon, does that automatically mean that it doesn't matter who you face, it's more impressive than winning another slam? Eg, is Kvitova's W more impressive than Na Li's RG MERELY because it is Wimbledon?

Go and have a look at the draws. Sure Margaret had some easy draws in some of her AO wins, but do so Navratilova in some of her wins too.

;) So who IS the GOAT of all-time? :lol:

madmax
Jul 9th, 2011, 09:12 AM
she just sucks on slow courts, when her flat serve can't be enhanced and give her free points on a surface. That and her erratic game, which doesn't translate well to grinding the points out

bandabou
Jul 9th, 2011, 09:15 AM
IMO, she seems to be unable to win ugly. When she's having an off day... :facepalm:

Just look at her grasscourt season this year and even Wimby 2010. She looked in promising form each time and then threw in a stinker. At Wimby, she was terrific against MJMS and suddenly, completely the opposite against Pironkova :help:

Interesting...I think this might have some truth to it. Serena can buckle down and even moonball if that's what it takes to win. Vee is unwilling to do this.

Slutiana
Jul 9th, 2011, 09:59 AM
Interesting...I think this might have some truth to it. Serena can buckle down and even moonball if that's what it takes to win. Vee is unwilling to do this.
Eh, I don't believe that though. When she was winning all the clay titles in the early 00s, she was very patient. In 2010 she went through matches where she just beat opponents with consistency, and it was the same against KDK at Wimbledon. But then she just inevitably throws in a stinker where she can barely get the ball in play.

Of course technique and other things have a bearing on many of her losses over the years, but so many of Venus' bad performances have been completely inexplicable. One day she'll look like the most mentally strong player around, another day she will choke a 4-0 third set lead. One day she looks content to play with margin and consistency, using her athleticism in order to win matches, and other days she hits 48 consecutive forehands out of the stadium to lose the match.

She's a huge underachiever, but she only has herself to blame.

KBlade
Jul 9th, 2011, 10:46 AM
Eh, I don't believe that though. When she was winning all the clay titles in the early 00s, she was very patient. In 2010 she went through matches where she just beat opponents with consistency, and it was the same against KDK at Wimbledon. But then she just inevitably throws in a stinker where she can barely get the ball in play.Of course technique and other things have a bearing on many of her losses over the years, but so many of Venus' bad performances have been completely inexplicable. One day she'll look like the most mentally strong player around, another day she will choke a 4-0 third set lead. One day she looks content to play with margin and consistency, using her athleticism in order to win matches, and other days she hits 48 consecutive forehands out of the stadium to lose the match.

She's a huge underachiever, but she only has herself to blame.

This is very accurate.

She struggles with inconsistent form. I was really impressed when she held on to beat Krumm, who was playing far better than Pironkova was, and her demolition Martinez Sanchez in the following round. And yet she still faded against Pushronkova and simply went away.

Although I think maybe the two day break before her Round of 16 match may have been a factor, she really did nothing differently against Pironkova. She hit just really tried to ball-bash, which resulted in her hitting just about everything out, and she then lost her confidence at net because she started trying to come in on stupid balls that would have seen her passed by even medi-ocre players.

A couple of years ago, she used to have a couple of emergency plans. Her A Game was to play aggressively from the baselines, her B game, if her groundstrokes were off the boil, was to come into net quickly and finish off points as soon as possible, and her C game was the use her athleticism and play defence. These days it appears like she tried to play her A game, but if that doesn't work, she begins pushing, or makes half-assed and illogical attempts to come into net which untimately fail. It's incredibly :facepalm: to watch as a fan.

If her intial match plan isn't working, she seems to be physically and mentally incapable of committing to her back-up.

The Witch-king
Jul 9th, 2011, 12:58 PM
Yeah. The difference between her backhand of old and now is like :help:. Apart from her movement this is what's declined the most.

It's not even her movement so much as her footwork if you can call it that. Venus doesn't do footwork these days. She runs into the ball and just swings wildly esp. on the backhand side.

justineheninfan
Jul 9th, 2011, 02:43 PM
I thought she was going to make it back to the final to play Henin in 2006 once she made the quarters. Was surprised she lost to Vaidisova.

Ryan
Jul 9th, 2011, 03:00 PM
Her opponents. :yeah:

Adal
Jul 9th, 2011, 03:00 PM
Whoever said 'Serena', was right!

GAGAlady
Jul 9th, 2011, 04:54 PM
Venus will never win the French Open. She is past 30 shes a little overweight and she has had her best days already.

as fa as the AO? thats wierd to me ...she should have won this slam once at least, but as with he FO i doubt she will win it at this stage.

GAGAlady
Jul 9th, 2011, 04:55 PM
Her best shot is on a fast court where her less than stellar shot selection can be masked by quick winners and driving volleys...its too bad her volleys sucked this year:(

azinna
Jul 9th, 2011, 06:06 PM
Yes, her opponents (like Serena) but mostly her prep. Venus has always needed a ton of matches to become physically and mentally match tough, then be able to maintain consistently high form in the 2nd week of any slam. Even in her heyday, the mountain of errors we saw in Miami (see that roller coaster 2001 final against Capriati), would become a molehill or speed bump or stack of plates come the US summer. In fact, all her Wimbledon and US Open wins were a product of a long run up, with the stumbles and successes along the way eventually helping her shape a slamming-winning version of herself.

This is one clear way she's different from Serena, who doesn't really need to play the fall season and Aussie tune-ups in order to give herself a legitimate shot at winning the Aussie Open title. I think Venus has been able to do the requisite prep 2 or 3 years out of her career. That's not enough to make any conclusions about the innate suitability of her game for the surfaces at Melbourne.

I'd say the same for the French. Both sisters needed to play the major clay warm ups -- against the real contenders -- in order to give themselves years of semis and finals at RG to profit from.

BTW, I like how Venus prepped for that lone YEC win in 2008. Played Stuttgart, Moscow, Zurich....

.....

rimon
Jul 10th, 2011, 09:13 AM
Serena? she would have beat anyone else in the 2002/ 2003 finals she made.......

Venus has never been the same player she was before her stomach injury of 2003..... Shes just has these mental lapses ever sense 2004. Before then she was as Spirlea would say THE Venus Fucking Williams....Now shes just Venus Ebony starr Williams. Still dangerous, but also prone to mental lapses during match.

Do you think that she would have definitely beaten Venus though?