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Paule22
Jan 26th, 2006, 08:10 PM
Sie ist die Tennis-Aufsteigerin des Jahres
Sportlerwahl: Die 17 Jahre alte Oldesloerin erreichte das DM-Halbfinale. Die Ahrensburger Zeitung stellt die Kandidaten vor. Heute: Profispielerin Julia Görges aus Bad Oldesloe.

Von Manfred Bode

Bad Oldesloe -

Wenn Julia Görges in diesen Tagen nach Australien blickt, hat das nicht nur mit den angenehmen Temperaturen down under zu tun. Die Oldesloerin, die nach dem Erwerb der mittleren Reife im Sommer die Theodor-Mommsen-Schule verließ und seitdem versucht, als Tennisprofi Fuß zu fassen, hat ein Faible für den fünften Kontinent und verfolgt zudem das Comeback der ehemaligen Nummer eins der WTA-Weltrangliste, Martina Hingis (24), die nach vierjähriger Turnierabstinenz in Gold Coast das Halbfinale erreichte. "Sie ist für mich die kompletteste Spielerin, vor allem wegen ihrer Übersicht", sagt die 17jährige.

Während die Schweizerin aber schon fast alles gewonnen hat, was zu gewinnen ist, steht Julia noch am Anfang ihrer Karriere. Die Rasanz, mit der sie sich seit Juni in der deutschen Rangliste bis auf Position 30 verbessert hat, ist bemerkenswert. "Ich habe mich konditionell, besonders in der Beinarbeit, gesteigert und bin im Match ruhiger geworden", so die Oldesloerin. Diese Entwicklung führt sie auf die Vergrößerung des Trainingsumfangs und das intensivere Arbeiten mit ihrem Coach Axel Pretzsch und dem Konditionstrainer Gunnar Weitschat zurück.

Die Umstellung von fünf Einheiten pro Woche auf häufig zwei am Tag machte der 1,80 Meter großen norddeutschen Meisterin zu Beginn keine Schwierigkeiten. Nach drei Wochen jedoch erfolgte die Reaktion. "Da war ich schon sehr müde und dankbar, in Ralf Gericke einen tollen Physiotherapeuten im Team zu haben."

Der Bargteheider Gericke, ein Freund der Familie, war es auch, der Julia bei ihrem bislang größten Erfolg im Damen-Tennis maßgeblich zur Seite stand. Als sie sich bei den deutschen Hallen-Meisterschaften in Isernhagen in der ersten Runde eine Muskelzerrung im Rücken zuzog, reiste Gericke umgehend an und sorgte mit seiner Behandlung dafür, daß Julia als ungesetzte Spielerin fast schmerzfrei das Halbfinale erreichte. Daß sie dort der Stuttgarterin Tatjana Malek 0:6, 0:6 unterlag, empfindet Görges mittlerweile als Lehre.

Dennoch genießt Julia beim Deutschen Tennis-Bund weiterhin viel Vertrauen. Seit Sommer 2005 gehört sie zum Perspektiv-Kader von FedCup-Chefin Barbara Rittner, besucht regelmäßig Lehrgänge und gehörte zum deutschen Aufgebot für die U-18-EM in Klosters (Schweiz), wo sie überraschend bis ins Viertelfinale vorstieß. So kommt es auch nicht von ungefähr, daß sie für die internationalen Würtembergischen Hallenmeisterschaften in Stuttgart (10 000 Dollar) eine Wildcard für das 32er-Hauptfeld erhielt und am Mittwoch als Nummer 1129 der Weltrangliste auf eine Gegnerin der Top 500 treffen wird.

Seit dem 3. Januar bereitet sich Julia, die vor der DM vier Turniere gewann und dabei Nord - und Landesmeisterin wurde, im neuen zentralen DTB-Nachwuchs-Leistungszentrum in Stuttgart-Stammheim auf das Turnier der German-Masters-Serie vor und bewohnt dort mit drei Kameradinnen ein Vierer-Zimmer. Immer dabei: der CD-Player mit ihren Musikfavoriten Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston und Blue. "Ich höre aber auch die Charts rauf und runter", sagt die Teenagerin, die es genießt, die Eltern mal auf Distanz zu wissen.

Der tägliche Anruf bei Mutter Inge und Vater Klaus, die einst die fünfjährige Tochter mit auf den Tennisplatz nahmen und damit den Stein ins Rollen brachten, bleibt aber nie aus. Julia weiß, was sie ihren Eltern zu verdanken hat und beißt sich auch an schlechten Tagen im Training durch.

Eine kürzlich beim DTB vorgenommene Leistungsdiagnostik hat ergeben, daß Julia drei Kilogramm Untergewicht hat, wobei ihr zwei Kilogramm Muskelmasse fehlen. Ihre Lieblingsspeisen Nudeln, Pizza und Steak könnte sie sich also ohne Reue in größeren Mengen einverleiben. Aber auch in punkto Ernährung ist Julia diszipliniert. Sollte es mit der Profikarriere dennoch nicht klappen, hat sie aber auch schon Plan B im Kopf: "Dann werde ich mein Abi nachmachen und einen anderen Berufsweg einschlagen." Ihr Lieblingsland Australien will sie auf jeden Fall einmal bereisen - notfalls halt privat.

erschienen am 9. Januar 2006

Ein paar Bilder:
Siegerehrung Brandenburg Indoors:
http://home.arcor.de/stamps/brbgin/sieger2.jpg

Vom 0-6; 0-6 Spiel(meine Kamera war sehr schlimm am DM-Wochenende):
http://home.arcor.de/stamps/goerges/goerges95.jpg

Random Pic:
http://home.arcor.de/stamps/goerges/p_julia_goerges3.jpg

Facts:
Geburtstag: 2. November 1988
Geburtsort: Bad Oldesloe
Familienstand: ledig
Beruf/Ausbildung: Tennisprofi
Hobbies: Kino, Freunde, Musik
Tennis seit: dem 5.Lebensjahr
Links-/Rechtshänder: Rechtshänder
Größe: 1,80 m (stimmt, wohl nicht mehr so ganz)
Aktueller Verein: TC Rot-Weiß Wahlstedt
Frühere Vereine: THC Ahrensburg , THC Blau- Weiß Oldesloe

Zamboni
Jul 1st, 2011, 09:19 AM
Volume 1 (http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=216666)

HowardH
Jul 1st, 2011, 10:36 AM
Yay she has a forum! Thanks Linda.

Could a moderator or admin move Julia's picture thread into this forum? http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=428269

Oh you've done it now, thanks for that!

HowardH
Jul 1st, 2011, 11:04 AM
I'm going to create a video thread for Julia. Does someone want to create a livescore thread?

Michael!
Jul 1st, 2011, 11:15 AM
Finally :p

we already have a live score thread for Julia but that was created by a poster who is banned now, so I guess it is better to make a new one :lol:

But you can also create that ,Howard, or we wait until she plays again :angel:

18majors
Jul 1st, 2011, 11:30 AM
Great to have Julia's own forum.

Daszmarelli
Jul 1st, 2011, 12:58 PM
:)

Rovegun
Jul 1st, 2011, 05:37 PM
oh finally!! we have waited for such a long time! so happy:D:worship:

19Christian87
Jul 2nd, 2011, 06:44 PM
Great that there is the new subforum now :) Interesting though that the first issue in this new subforum is whether to write her with "ö" or "oe"... ;)

Anyway, guys what do you think about Julia's pre-US Open schedule? It looks pretty packed, doesn't it?

joy division
Jul 2nd, 2011, 10:53 PM
It might be too early to ask that question, but how far can Julia go in her career ?
All in all, I think, Julia is actually a very talented tennis player.
She climbed up the rankings quite rapidly, and achieved already a lot in her career, getting in the Top 20.
Together with Andrea and Sabine, she has a large share, that German women`s tennis currently looks up again. There is no doubt.
In the last three Grand Slams she lost her 3.round matches in a pretty similar way.
Especially against Domenica at Wimbledon, it was obvious, that Julia lost confidence in her game, when it mattered, although she was clearly the better player, when her game was on.
At this level of stage she needs to get more consistent and determined.
Can Julia still go a step further and is this just a matter of time and experience ?
Another poster accurately said, that her game is big, but she can`t yet master it.
Hard to compare, but if you watch the latest progressions of other "hard hitters" like Kvitova and Ivanovic, it seems to be very important, how you can handle this point ?
Any meanings ?

Root
Jul 2nd, 2011, 11:20 PM
Great that there is the new subforum now :) Interesting though that the first issue in this new subforum is whether to write her with "ö" or "oe"... ;)

Anyway, guys what do you think about Julia's pre-US Open schedule? It looks pretty packed, doesn't it?

I feel it's way packed. She's scheduled for 4* tournaments in August (2 in July), including Texas Tennis Open* which is a week before the USO. I'd rather she withdrew from that one at least. I don't want her to repeat Hantuchova's mistake by playing both Birmingham, and Eastbourne a week before SW19 and coming into it with injuries. Most of the top 20 players are playing 2-3 tournaments as USO preparation.

* According to her FB events page. Her website doesn't list Texas Open.

fleckes
Jul 3rd, 2011, 12:13 AM
It might be too early to ask that question, but how far can Julia go in her career ?
All in all, I think, Julia is actually a very talented tennis player.
She climbed up the rankings quite rapidly, and achieved already a lot in her career, getting in the Top 20.
Together with Andrea and Sabine, she has a large share, that German women`s tennis currently looks up again. There is no doubt.
In the last three Grand Slams she lost her 3.round matches in a pretty similar way.
Especially against Domenica at Wimbledon, it was obvious, that Julia lost confidence in her game, when it mattered, although she was clearly the better player, when her game was on.
At this level of stage she needs to get more consistent and determined.
Can Julia still go a step further and is this just a matter of time and experience ?
Another poster accurately said, that her game is big, but she can`t yet master it.
Hard to compare, but if you watch the latest progressions of other "hard hitters" like Kvitova and Ivanovic, it seems to be very important, how you can handle this point ?
Any meanings ?

Julia herself said before her recent success that she wants to take it one step at a time, that it's not important to climb the rankings fast but steadily. I also heard her saying that it's her game to go for it, even if she misses a lot. But because her game was always a little bit hit and miss she learned to deal with it and won't let discourage her by some errors.With her Title and the SF she jumped up the rankings a bit, but I'm quite confident that her approach hasn't changed. In recent interviews she comes accross as being very rational about the losses at GS and she said that she learned a lot from it. To be honest I would be a little bit worried if she had even more success than she actually had because I thinks the step by step approach seems to be the better one than to skyrocket to success. Because now she can learn to bring the big game to big matches with some ups and downs. But if she had really unexpected success now, if she were constantly on an up, I don't know if she could cope well if than things were not going here way, let alone handling the pressure the Big success alone brings with it.
So long story short, I'm not worried, everything is going according to plan, even better to be precise beacause nobody expected her to win Stuttgart. The approach is step by step and I'm happy with that, because with a to big of a jump the likely fallback could be hurtfull, the question would be if she could cope with that. So I'm optimistic for Julia's future and the women's tennis in germany in general. That's good for Julia too, because she can share the inevetable media pressure in germany wit Sabine and Andrea. So at the end there is just one thing to say foe me now: GO JULIA:yeah:

Rovegun
Jul 3rd, 2011, 10:23 AM
fleckes said it almost everything in my opinion... I´ve always liked the way how Julia has been improving step by step she´s not any teenrocket who reached the sky very quickly... it looks she has made much bigger improvement this season than a few seasons before... I believe Julia can be a regular Top 10 player along with Petko and Sabine... German tennis can look forward to the great future because all the girls are still very young and have a lot to reach in their career... there is no rush on Julia to make another big improvement this season she should keep her position in the rankings or make it even better if there is a chance...

LightsOut!
Jul 3rd, 2011, 11:47 AM
VOlume two already :worship:

18majors
Jul 3rd, 2011, 12:57 PM
Hope Julia will start to play hard court tennis soon.

18majors
Jul 4th, 2011, 08:31 PM
Julia will defend her title at Bad Gastein next week.

Rovegun
Jul 4th, 2011, 09:03 PM
hope for some streams or TV action from such a lovely place as Bad Gastein is..

Root
Jul 5th, 2011, 02:52 AM
With KvittyGOAT and Cibulkova both out of the tournament, Julia has higher chances of defending the title. Good luck, let's get that third title. :yeah:

18majors
Jul 5th, 2011, 12:05 PM
It would be good to see Julia picking up momentum.

18majors
Jul 6th, 2011, 02:22 AM
Go Julia.

19Christian87
Jul 7th, 2011, 11:05 AM
I feel it's way packed. She's scheduled for 4* tournaments in August (2 in July), including Texas Tennis Open* which is a week before the USO. I'd rather she withdrew from that one at least. I don't want her to repeat Hantuchova's mistake by playing both Birmingham, and Eastbourne a week before SW19 and coming into it with injuries. Most of the top 20 players are playing 2-3 tournaments as USO preparation.

* According to her FB events page. Her website doesn't list Texas Open.
On the other hand I thought that starting fields at Stanford, San Diego, Toronto and Cincinnati could be very good, so there could be the possibility that she will not get to play too many matches at those tournaments. In that case I think it could be good to play at least some more matches at Grapevine.

18majors
Jul 7th, 2011, 01:17 PM
Julis needs to play matches to get match tough.

Viktymise
Jul 7th, 2011, 02:56 PM
I'm slowly but surely becoming a bit of a MissGorgeous fanboy.

Skoo
Jul 7th, 2011, 06:54 PM
Only a bit? :)

Viktymise
Jul 7th, 2011, 07:36 PM
Only a bit? :)

Who knows what can happen a few months? ;)

Skoo
Jul 7th, 2011, 08:02 PM
What does she have to do for you to become a little bit more of a fanboy? :) (except win a lot of matches, of course)

Vikapower
Jul 8th, 2011, 12:44 PM
Good luck Julia at Bad Gastein and hopefully another title here... it's the 11th if I'm not mistaken !? Anyways best of luck.

P.S. I'm surprised there is no stats thread or maybe I should create one. ;) It'd be cool also to have "Julia's hall of fame" sort of thing.

Skoo
Jul 8th, 2011, 12:55 PM
11th? That would be awesome, but she's got only 2 :(

Viktymise
Jul 8th, 2011, 01:09 PM
What does she have to do for you to become a little bit more of a fanboy? :) (except win a lot of matches, of course)

A few more of her matches on TV and I'll be sold.

Also, I'm still a bit peeved that she blew it at RG and Wimbledon.

Skoo
Jul 8th, 2011, 02:08 PM
Yeah, I suppose we all are. Those were some awful ways to lose a match and to miss great chances.

Vikapower
Jul 8th, 2011, 04:56 PM
11th? That would be awesome, but she's got only 2 :(

:lol: No I meant the date. ;) The 11th of July, the tournament starts the 11th I think. :angel:

Rovegun
Jul 8th, 2011, 05:11 PM
Good luck Julia at Bad Gastein and hopefully another title here... it's the 11th if I'm not mistaken !? Anyways best of luck.

P.S. I'm surprised there is no stats thread or maybe I should create one. ;) It'd be cool also to have "Julia's hall of fame" sort of thing.

it´s up to you! you can do such a thread for Jule;)

Skoo
Jul 8th, 2011, 05:12 PM
:lol: No I meant the date. ;) The 11th of July, the tournament starts the 11th I think. :angel:

:lol: Yes, that is true. But, of course, the other 11th will be also true same time next year :p

Vikapower
Jul 8th, 2011, 05:31 PM
:lol: Yes, that is true. But, of course, the other 11th will be also true same time next year :p

;) Hopefully I/we can only wish that for her and that'd mean that she'd be having a very successful career. :hearts:

it´s up to you! you can do such a thread for Jule;)
Ok thanks, I already have everything compiled like what I posted in the stats thread for Petra on the opening page of TF (...) I'm just unsure if to post captions and update them or type them by hand.

I think though I'll go with the captions anyways. :lol: As for the hall of fame I'll most probably leave that to somebody else. :lol:

19Christian87
Jul 9th, 2011, 10:58 AM
Also, I'm still a bit peeved that she blew it at RG and Wimbledon.
Yeah, I suppose we all are. Those were some awful ways to lose a match and to miss great chances.
At RG it was not that bad imo. That match was still nice to watch.

Specter
Jul 9th, 2011, 11:02 AM
At RG it was not that bad imo. That match was still nice to watch.

It was one of Marion's crazy competitive matches this year. A lot of people had no chance when she was like that, so no shame in retrospect. Although I was raging all over the place when it was happening right before my eyes. :tape:

Skoo
Jul 9th, 2011, 11:33 AM
It didn't look like Marion was able to beat her. The score was 4-0 in just 10 minutes and then the errors started creeping in. I was astonished by the low number of Julia's UEs, but it didn't last long. Well, maybe some of them were forced, but most of them were not. There was this particular error at the net at 4-0 or 5-1 when she smiled and started to make a lot of them afterwards. And she had a good chance of winning in straight sets, but she suddenly broke down. I think it was 3-3 in the second. Break to love, then the eye problem and being down (literally on one ocassion) until 4-1 for Marion in the third. Maybe I am biased but the only credit I can give to Marion is serving well for the match a 5-4 and forcing errors at times.

joy division
Jul 9th, 2011, 01:08 PM
It didn't look like Marion was able to beat her. The score was 4-0 in just 10 minutes and then the errors started creeping in. I was astonished by the low number of Julia's UEs, but it didn't last long. Well, maybe some of them were forced, but most of them were not. There was this particular error at the net at 4-0 or 5-1 when she smiled and started to make a lot of them afterwards. And she had a good chance of winning in straight sets, but she suddenly broke down. I think it was 3-3 in the second. Break to love, then the eye problem and being down (literally on one ocassion) until 4-1 for Marion in the third. Maybe I am biased but the only credit I can give to Marion is serving well for the match a 5-4 and forcing errors at times.

Julia played really very well in the beginning of the first set, Marion was pretty impressed and needed quite a long time to get into the match.
Therefore she had that 4-0 lead in the first set, and then, as you said the errors started creeping in, and Marion smell a rat.
Julia was still in control of the match, when she answered the loss of her service game in the end of the first, with a re-break to close the first set, but then slowly, but surely things changed.
Marion now played at a high and consistent level, and Julia`s game started to get consistently failing, and she was in permanent danger, to lose her service game.
The loss ot it at 3-3 was the turning point of the match. Julia was visibly rattled and not able to offer something in reply to Marion`s pressure and determination. So the match went by until 4-1 for Marion in the third.
Then again, being clearly behind, Julia played relaxed and better again, but against Marion, who is a very experienced, determined and focused player, it was too late.
The eye-story was something irrelevant, imo, it`s more the yet missing ability to stay focused, and keeping the level of play, when it matters at those big events.
By the way, it`s a similar story with her third-round match against Sharapova at the AO 2011. 6-4, 4-6, 4-6. She was down 0-4 in the third, getting back to 3-4, and then losing the match.

Skoo
Jul 9th, 2011, 01:34 PM
The eye-story was something irrelevant, imo, it`s more the yet missing ability to stay focused, and keeping the level of play, when it matters at those big events.
By the way, it`s a similar story with her third-round match against Sharapova at the AO 2011. 6-4, 4-6, 4-6. She was down 0-4 in the third, getting back to 3-4, and then losing the match.

Yes, it probably was irrelevant, but who knows, maybe she actually didn't see the ball well :) And she was also coughing like hell and probably didn't have enough energy. Marion was always eating, but she took some bites only in the 3rd and she immediately "recovered".

I saw only highlights of the AO match, but at least there the stats were against her. Sharapova maybe played indeed better?

18majors
Jul 9th, 2011, 02:40 PM
We'll know more about the status of Julia's game in the upcoming US hard court season.

Vikapower
Jul 9th, 2011, 02:50 PM
It didn't look like Marion was able to beat her. The score was 4-0 in just 10 minutes and then the errors started creeping in. I was astonished by the low number of Julia's UEs, but it didn't last long. Well, maybe some of them were forced, but most of them were not. There was this particular error at the net at 4-0 or 5-1 when she smiled and started to make a lot of them afterwards. And she had a good chance of winning in straight sets, but she suddenly broke down. I think it was 3-3 in the second. Break to love, then the eye problem and being down (literally on one ocassion) until 4-1 for Marion in the third. Maybe I am biased but the only credit I can give to Marion is serving well for the match a 5-4 and forcing errors at times.

Julia was playing very well in the first set, Marion was indisputably dominated but she (Julia) usually always have these dips in concentration after the 1st set where she'll spray many UEs which explains why Marion was abled to put her teeth back into the match.

Julia wasted so much opportunities in the 3rd. set because of her inconsistency to align 2 good points in a row - she'd hit a mesmerizing FH and follow it up as soon with a very idiotic UE... she squandered a lot in the 3rd. set and deservedly lost it despite the paradox that she hit triple much more winners and was above in almost all service games.

---

The match against Maria was pretty much similar - Maria mostly dominated in the 1st., Julia having her chances in the 2nd. to completely kill the match doesn't take them, Maria raises her level in the 3rd. has the early break and despite all Julia's efforts to recuperate it by brilliant play at times, Maria was just too strong.

---

Julia's next step in majors in my opinion is management, match management, she's never that far - she lost all her 3rd. round matches in tight 3 set matches and all 3 times she won the 1st. set (...) so it really tells that she needs to get that concentration to another level and not authorize her opponents faith by giving away so much or at least make these lapses shorter.

Sometimes she just enters in that infernal circle where she seems to have no control on whatever she hits on-court... e.g. vs. Ana in Eastbourne - I still have no explanation why Julia was that good in the 4-5 first games and suddenly -------------------- these are the kinds of things that do not pass in the higher stages of the bigger events.

Skoo
Jul 9th, 2011, 03:17 PM
Julia's next step in majors in my opinion is management, match management, she's never that far - she lost all her 3rd. round matches in tight 3 set matches and all 3 times she won the 1st. set (...) so it really tells that she needs to get that concentration to another level and not authorize her opponents faith by giving away so much or at least make these lapses shorter.

That's a very good term. Management of the match is exactly what she needs :) Maybe it would have been better for her to have more dangerous opponents or at least seemingly more dangerous, like Wozniacki. She definitely had a good management of the matches against her this year. But there she also had the coach to come and cheer her up. That might be worth something. In the match against Safarova, she read something on a notebook exactly before breaking her and getting back into the match. She probably should have done it in the other matches too :)

Sometimes she just enters in that infernal circle where she seems to have no control on whatever she hits on-court... e.g. vs. Ana in Eastbourne - I still have no explanation why Julia was that good in the 4-5 first games and suddenly -------------------- these are the kinds of things that do not pass in the higher stages of the bigger events.

I don't think Julia was any good the whole match. The first games were only breaks and, as far as I can remember, they were not caused by excellent returns. They were both pretty awful, but Ana managed to be more careful on a few occasions and that was it. Julia's winners/UEs ratio was (I think) way below 1, the DF were many and the first serve was pretty much absent. One of the worst matches I've seen from her. She usually loses playing better than her opponent :) But she assured us she learned from the last big failure.

joy division
Jul 9th, 2011, 03:43 PM
[QUOTE=Skoo;19871087]Yes, it probably was irrelevant, but who knows, maybe she actually didn't see the ball well :) And she was also coughing like hell and probably didn't have enough energy. Marion was always eating, but she took some bites only in the 3rd and she immediately "recovered".

I saw only highlights of the AO match, but at least there the stats were against her. Sharapova maybe played indeed better?[/QUOTE


Julia should be experienced enough to take care of her nutrition, but I remember that her coach gave her hand-signs during the breaks to take care of drinking enough in the match with Pavljuchenkova in Madrid, so may be, she can be careless sometimes.
She had caught a cold during the FO 2011, but I can`t assess, whether it affected her already in the match with Marion.
If yes, this is a serious point. At least she didn`t use as an excuse after the match. I can´t remember her coughing more than else in that match.
I´d say, it might also be a sign of not feeling comfortable overall on the court, but who knows?

Her match with Maria at the AO was consistently on a good level from both players, with rapid speed, offensive play and lot`s of winners, just fun to watch.
I don`t remember the stats, but Julia was able to keep the pace of Maria, and even dominate her in some parts of the match, and that`s not very usual, when Maria`s game is on.
Although Julia lost in the end, she herself is still proud of this match.
It was a really good performance of her in her first 3-round appearance at a GS.

Marion`s and Maria`s way to play are quite different, therefore it`s hard to compare the matches.
But in both matches she had some lack of concentration and determination in certain moments, and therefore she lost them.
It`s natural, that these things develop in years, and come along with the experience, and it`s very individual, how the players improve in that point.

Vikapower
Jul 9th, 2011, 03:57 PM
That's a very good term. Management of the match is exactly what she needs :) Maybe it would have been better for her to have more dangerous opponents or at least seemingly more dangerous, like Wozniacki. (1) She definitely had a good management of the matches against her this year. But there she also had the coach to come and cheer her up. That might be worth something. (2) In the match against Safarova, she read something on a notebook exactly before breaking her and getting back into the match. She probably should have done it in the other matches too :)

(1) :lol: To be honest, I'm kind of exhausted with the Julia vs. Caroline thing match up because of the turn it has taken : non-fans in majority want Julia in Caro's part of the draw (almost every time) for her to "save the WTA" regardless of her personal success since the only purpose is to see the Dane fall -- Yes Julia has done very well against Caroline but we must remember that it was on her favorite surface by afar and certainly Caroline's worst.

It's true that playing the world #1 (though from my personal point of view is a complete utopia) certainly did help in keeping her composure... I guess you always kind of come focused when you're playing a top 5 or #1 player than when you play the #44th in the world. :lol:

---

I agree that Julia's coach is of a lot of help in the regular tournaments, he's very good but Julia has shown that she can find her way on her own like a big girl even when things are completely against her like in RG vs. Safarova -- the thing is it doesn't happen enough yet especially in the big stages... she can sometimes lost the plot in a match and never find the light again or anyways just a little bit of it (like vs. Marion) which obviously is not yet strong enough to get the better.

(2) Interesting, I never paid attention to this. I'll have a look at the match again for that. ;)


I don't think Julia was any good the whole match. The first games were only breaks and, as far as I can remember, they were not caused by excellent returns. They were both pretty awful, but Ana managed to be more careful on a few occasions and that was it. Julia's winners/UEs ratio was (I think) way below 1, the DF were many and the first serve was pretty much absent. One of the worst matches I've seen from her. She usually loses playing better than her opponent :) But she assured us she learned from the last big failure.

Yes but I assure you the 3-4 first games were excellent from Julia. She was hitting clean winners and really taking time away from Ana. At 4-2 approximatively, her serve just completely disappeared which then completely infected the rest of her game and made her clueless.

You are right on all the rest though, unfortunately, Julia was really that bad and the worst is that Ana wasn't doing anything extraordinary to win the match. :tape: It was Ana putting the ball back in play and Julia making an error on either the 1st. or 2nd. strike, just not good.

I don't know if this is the worst match I've seen from her but I have the feeling that in Charleston against Birnerova, though we didn't see the match was a pure ---------- and would have distasted me from 6-1 5-1 or 5-0. :help: I really wonder what Julia was doing on-court before she finally got the match turned around. :lol:

Skoo
Jul 9th, 2011, 05:26 PM
Julia should be experienced enough to take care of her nutrition, but I remember that her coach gave her hand-signs during the breaks to take care of drinking enough in the match with Pavljuchenkova in Madrid, so may be, she can be careless sometimes.

Yes, I remember those sings (but in the match against Wozniacki). It was pretty funny, like a little child being instructed by her parent. She is kinda childish at times, isn't she? :)

(1) :lol: To be honest, I'm kind of exhausted with the Julia vs. Caroline thing match up because of the turn it has taken : non-fans in majority want Julia in Caro's part of the draw (almost every time) for her to "save the WTA" regardless of her personal success since the only purpose is to see the Dane fall -- Yes Julia has done very well against Caroline but we must remember that it was on her favorite surface by afar and certainly Caroline's worst.

Another match on grass would have been wonderful, don't you think? It would have saved the WTA again. :lol: Anyway, I have nothing against Caro and I definitely care about Julia's career. But those matches are symbols of consistency for her. And I think the surface is not that important. She wasn't far from beating her at Copenhagen in 2010, but the consistency wasn't there in that match.


I don't know if this is the worst match I've seen from her but I have the feeling that in Charleston against Birnerova, though we didn't see the match was a pure ---------- and would have distasted me from 6-1 5-1 or 5-0. :help: I really wonder what Julia was doing on-court before she finally got the match turned around. :lol:

Well, she turned it around though. :) Those matches in Mexico must have been probably pretty awful too. I have a bad feeling about the fact that she's the first seed again (and the defending champion). :)

P.S.: She was reading from the notebook at 2-3 and broke Safarova's serve at 3-4. She made at least one stupid mistake after reading, but after that she won her service game to love. And she was looking very desperate until then. :)

Vikapower
Jul 9th, 2011, 07:48 PM
Another match on grass would have been wonderful, don't you think? It would have saved the WTA again. :lol: Anyway, I have nothing against Caro and I definitely care about Julia's career. But those matches are symbols of consistency for her. And I think the surface is not that important. She wasn't far from beating her at Copenhagen in 2010, but the consistency wasn't there in that match.

Yes but it's the context around the Julia vs. Wozanicki match up that annoys me :lol: but you're right, these matches are references for her and definitively symbols of consistency ;) because it's really in that period she started clicking with her game on a more regular basis.

I believe Julia can do well on any surface, I've always trusted her on that but the thing is will she really !? Faster surfaces really would not favor her because of her unique technique, this is all theoretical because with confidence you can accomplish a lot - and maybe this is the year to make a statement on Decoturf.

I'm still awaiting a good solid US Open series since last year she skipped all of the events leading up to the US Open - grass was Julia's so said worst surface which would probably have been a fact since it was only her 8th match on grass in Eastbourne, yet, she still made it to the 3rd. round of Wimbledon like a champ and wasn't that far from making it to the 4th.

She's learning very well, it's maybe not as quick progression like Petra Kvitova for example but this is only just a start before she reserves the better for the future. :drool:

Well, she turned it around though. :) Those matches in Mexico must have been probably pretty awful too. I have a bad feeling about the fact that she's the first seed again (and the defending champion). :)

:lol: Yes it's not easy to be the defending champion - I'm not sure the #1 seed affects her that much. ;) She's won the event before so she must definitively be comfortable with the environment and stuff and use last year's experience to prevail.

Skoo
Jul 9th, 2011, 09:51 PM
I actually wanted to say in the previous message that she seems an all-courter. :) But I think she always plays better (i.e. consistent) indoor. Her last two finals were indoor, and she had some health problems in the one she lost. I think there is a pretty good chance of winning another one this year. Maybe she somehow feels less pressure indoor?

Anyway, she played on grass about as well as on clay (of course, only at Wimby), if not better. She crushed Medina and dealt pretty well with a very solid performance by Johansson. And, of course, Cibulkova was helpless against her. After seeing her at Eastbourne, I didn't have any expectations and her new and improved game was a very pleasant surprise. Maybe she learns as fast as Kvitova, but she's not that fit and confident. And she doesn't have Navratilova to give her advice and support :)

Vikapower
Jul 12th, 2011, 05:07 PM
:lol: We should forget about Bad Gastein very fast as obviously Julia didn't seem to care that much... :lol: - I'd had loved for her to defend a title for the first time in her career but it will not be in Austria. So next stop is Stanford hopefully better fortunes on the fast HCs.

Skoo
Jul 12th, 2011, 05:20 PM
I think this loss meant out of top 20. And this trend will probably continue. She lied, she didn't learn. Stuttgart and Madrid were probably mistakes. I don't think she will do very well in the US. Maybe indoor, at the end of the season. We can be optimistic, of course, but that will make it only worse for us. But hey, now we have another two weeks with no tennis from her and most probably with a lot of pics with nails :)

Ayumilove
Jul 12th, 2011, 06:25 PM
^ she'll be at no.19. 200 points gone in the next two weeks but than 5 weeks she plays with no point to defend.

Skoo
Jul 12th, 2011, 06:44 PM
Only 200? I thought 279. Don't you lose all the points if you're the defending champion (except the one you earn for the 1st round)?

mk27
Jul 12th, 2011, 06:51 PM
She will lose 310 points in the next 2 weeks.

130 from Palermo this week and 280 from Bad Gastein next week (Bad Gastein was one week later last year)
Both results will be replaced by 70 points from Copenhagen last year and 30 points from Bogota.

130 + 280 - 70 - 30 = 310


She will play all 5 weeks in the North America HC-Season and has only 70 points to defend from Copenhagen last year.

Skoo
Jul 12th, 2011, 06:53 PM
Damn, and I thought I understand the ranking system. Why does one get points from last year or from months ago?

mk27
Jul 12th, 2011, 07:20 PM
Only the best 16 results from the last 12 month are counted for the rankings.

These are Julia's non countable results at the moment:

Copenhagen 2010 70 points
Quebec 2010 30 points
Dubai 2010 30 points
Bogota 2011 30 points
Acapulco 2011 30 points
Monterrey 2011 1 point
Seoul 2011 1 point
Eastbourne 2011 1 point

Skoo
Jul 12th, 2011, 07:35 PM
Oh, I see. And had she defended her title, would she still had received those 70+30 points? And the points from Copenhagen have to be defended in another tournament in the same week as Copenhagen last year?

mk27
Jul 12th, 2011, 07:43 PM
Oh, I see. And had she defended her title, would she still had received those 70+30 points?

No, she wouldn't receive those points.


And the points from Copenhagen have to be defended in another tournament in the same week as Copenhagen last year?

Yes, that would be the week with Carlsbad this year.

Skoo
Jul 12th, 2011, 08:01 PM
And she wouldn't receive the points from Copenhagen because the new points from Bad Gastein would be considered as one of the new best performances, even though they were defended?

mk27
Jul 12th, 2011, 08:23 PM
Yes, but only if she could get more than the 70 points from Copenhagen.


This is her ranking breakdown from this week:

Stuttgart 470
Madrid (mandatory) 450
Bad Gastein 280
Luxembourg 200
Australian Open (mandatory) 160
French Open (mandatory) 160
Wimbledon 160 (mandatory)
Palermo 130
Auckland 130
Tokyo 125
Charleston 120
US Open (mandatory) 100
Indian Wells (mandatory) 80
Linz 70
Miami (mandatory) 5
Beijing (mandatory) 5
-------------------------------(Best-of-16) = 2645 points
Copenhagen 70
Quebec 30
Dubai 30
Bogota 30
Acapulco 30
Monterrey 1
Seoul 1
Eastbourne 1


In 2 weeks, it will looks like this:

Stuttgart 470
Madrid (mandatory) 450
Luxembourg 200
Australian Open (mandatory) 160
French Open (mandatory) 160
Wimbledon 160 (mandatory)
Auckland 130
Tokyo 125
Charleston 120
US Open (mandatory) 100
Indian Wells (mandatory) 80
Linz 70
Copenhagen 70
Acapulco 30
Miami (mandatory) 5
Beijing (mandatory) 5
-------------------------------(Best-of-16) = 2335 points
Quebec 30
Dubai 30
Bogota 30
Monterrey 1
Seoul 1
Eastbourne 1
Bad Gastein 1

Skoo
Jul 12th, 2011, 08:31 PM
Now I understand. Or so I think :) Thanks! So she will exit top 20 after all, right?

mk27
Jul 12th, 2011, 08:34 PM
Now I understand. Or so I think :) Thanks! So she will exit top 20 after all, right?

Maybe, she will only go down to 20-22. But she has only 70 points to defend in the HC-season and will play Stanford, Carlsbad, Toronto, Cincinnati and Dallas.

Skoo
Jul 12th, 2011, 08:49 PM
That sounds great. August will be all about her. Hopefully we'll get to see five matches on TV! :)

Vikapower
Jul 12th, 2011, 10:19 PM
Mk explained it well, it's not really a problem that Julia goes down a little bit in the ranking, she has nothing to defend on the US HC so she just needs one or two good results in the Premiers on the US HC and she'll be in correct position again for the US Open - maybe even better depending on what the other girls do.

http://www.gastein-ladies.at/aktuelles_news_118.php

- one of the worst matches of my career
- very bitter that it happened here
- a black day, where I tried everything but nothing worked
- I was a bit tired bc I had a dental operation last Monday and had to take pills for the inflammation until Thursday
- I felt this tiredness still today
- all in all very disappointing, I will play doubles tomorrow yet

From the other thread - Well it seemed like Julia very much cared, it's really unfortunate that this all had to happen in Bad Gastein such a sentimental tournament for her so I guess she must really be deceived. :hug:

Skoo
Jul 12th, 2011, 11:20 PM
I feel pretty bad (as probably do most of you) and I didn't even see the match. So it must be hell for her, yes :bigcry: I told you that being the no 1 seed and defending champion might get to her. It did on the previous occasions and it did now. She doesn't have the nerves for it.

Does anybody know if she made a request to see her coach?

Vikapower
Jul 19th, 2011, 03:40 PM
Ok I thought about it and here are some things we should do for Julia's player forum to organize it better - I wish we could discuss about it and tell me if you agree or disagree on the different points :wavey: :

1) We should ask a moderator to stick Julia's "official cheering thread" in the upper section where we can and could talk anything related to or about Julia (...) :lol: I think we've been posting anywhere and everywhere sometimes about very very interesting subjects about her or related to her that finds place in her cheering thread and not really in the Livescore(s) ones -- That would also help the visitors and others to have a better view.

We should rename that thread something like "Meet Julia Görges - Cheering thread" or if someone has a better idea. ;)

2) We should perhaps create an official Livescore thread so that we don't have to open one at each and every tournament Julia will play, kind of overloading, no, after a certain amount of events played :lol:

3) Howard created Julia's video thread and it's quite an important one so I would also stick it in the upper section and maybe rename it to something like "Julia Görges video thread" or anyways something better.

4) We should create a thread "News and articles" related to her to put everything concerning Julia issued from magazines or any sort of media source.

5) Julia's photo thread is very important (not because I post in it often :lol:) but because it's probably the window of her player forum and mainly where all visitors would go at first so I think it should also be sticked in the upper section with her video and cheering thread. :)

5) Banditoo opened a Twitter thread it's a very very good idea but I think I would have regrouped it under the newly created "News and articles" thread.

Tell me if you agree or disagree and eventually propose better ideas. Thanks. :)

joy division
Jul 19th, 2011, 05:45 PM
Ok I thought about it and here are some things we should do for Julia's player forum to organize it better - I wish we could discuss about it and tell me if you agree or disagree on the different points :wavey: :

1) We should ask a moderator to stick Julia's "official cheering thread" in the upper section where we can and could talk anything related to or about Julia (...) :lol: I think we've been posting anywhere and everywhere sometimes about very very interesting subjects about her or related to her that finds place in her cheering thread and not really in the Livescore(s) ones -- That would also help the visitors and others to have a better view.

We should rename that thread something like "Meet Julia Görges - Cheering thread" or if someone has a better idea. ;)

2) We should perhaps create an official Livescore thread so that we don't have to open one at each and every tournament Julia will play, kind of overloading, no, after a certain amount of events played :lol:

3) Howard created Julia's video thread and it's quite an important one so I would also stick it in the upper section and maybe rename it to something like "Julia Görges video thread" or anyways something better.

4) We should create a thread "News and articles" related to her to put everything concerning Julia issued from magazines or any sort of media source.

5) Julia's photo thread is very important (not because I post in it often :lol:) but because it's probably the window of her player forum and mainly where all visitors would go at first so I think it should also be sticked in the upper section with her video and cheering thread. :)

5) Banditoo opened a Twitter thread it's a very very good idea but I think I would have regrouped it under the newly created "News and articles" thread.

Tell me if you agree or disagree and eventually propose better ideas. Thanks. :)

You`re right. It´s a bit higgledy-piggledy in Julia`s forum, and it should definitely have a better structure.
Your proposals are very good. I just want to admit some little things.
To 1 - The cheering thread should be in upper section.
The statements and discussion concerning her game and her progress could be included in this thread, or even have an own place in a single thread.
To 2 - Definitely agree, there is no need for an own thread at every single tournament, excepted maybe the Grand Slams.
To 3,4,5 - Don`t think that these threads have to be in the upper section, not because they are not important or not watchable, but they are clearly defined, and every visitor knows, what he can find, for example, in Julia`s video thread or in the photo thread. By the way my computer always crashes, when I try to open the video thread, it`s overloaded. Possibly other users, with usual computers have the same problem.
I think it`s important that we have a place about Julia`s statements, so maybe there should be a thread like "Interviews and Twitter".
News, articles about her, writen from others could stay as an own thread.

Vikapower
Jul 19th, 2011, 06:09 PM
You`re right. It´s a bit higgledy-piggledy in Julia`s forum, and it should definitely have a better structure.
Your proposals are very good. I just want to admit some little things.
To 1 - The cheering thread should be in upper section.
The statements and discussion concerning her game and her progress could be included in this thread, or even have an own place in a single thread.

:lol: Don't worry, a cheering thread usually regroups all these things. The cheering thread should be to talk about Julia, her game, ranks etc... anything and everything related to her including her progress. ;)


To 3,4,5 - Don`t think that these threads have to be in the upper section, not because they are not important or not watchable, but they are clearly defined, and every visitor knows, what he can find, for example, in Julia`s video thread or in the photo thread. By the way my computer always crashes, when I try to open the video thread, it`s overloaded. Possibly other users, with usual computers have the same problem.

Well if we agree that Julia's video thread and picture thread will be sticked in the 1st. box then they will stay as they are as single entities. Their would be no intentions I believe to merge them or something. They would stay defined as they are.

N.B. As for your computer crashes, it's due to the fact that Fleckes made a great job of reuniting all Julia's videos from Youtube and basically they're all on one page and can result into crashes for some of you -- as soon as the thread will take a normal course then your crashes will stop. ;)

I think it`s important that we have a place about Julia`s statements, so maybe there should be a thread like "Interviews and Twitter".
News, articles about her, writen from others could stay as an own thread.

Ok, I'm happy you approve this. ;) If you have any other ideas they're welcomed.

I hope to have some other points from everyone and hopefully Cilly, Howard, TO, Micheal, Mk... they're the ones who basically almost created the player forum. :lol:

Banditoo
Jul 19th, 2011, 08:24 PM
If you want to regrouped by Twitter thread on Interviews and Twitter thread I will regrouped it :)

Vikapower
Jul 19th, 2011, 08:45 PM
If you want to regrouped by Twitter thread on Interviews and Twitter thread I will regrouped it :)

Not yet, we're just discussing the possibility of how to reorganize things. ;)

mk27
Jul 20th, 2011, 08:36 AM
1) We should ask a moderator to stick Julia's "official cheering thread" in the upper section where we can and could talk anything related to or about Julia (...) :lol: I think we've been posting anywhere and everywhere sometimes about very very interesting subjects about her or related to her that finds place in her cheering thread and not really in the Livescore(s) ones -- That would also help the visitors and others to have a better view.

We should rename that thread something like "Meet Julia Görges - Cheering thread" or if someone has a better idea. ;)

Yes, it should be in the upper section.


2) We should perhaps create an official Livescore thread so that we don't have to open one at each and every tournament Julia will play, kind of overloading, no, after a certain amount of events played :lol:

Good idea.


3) Howard created Julia's video thread and it's quite an important one so I would also stick it in the upper section and maybe rename it to something like "Julia Görges video thread" or anyways something better.

5) Julia's photo thread is very important (not because I post in it often :lol:) but because it's probably the window of her player forum and mainly where all visitors would go at first so I think it should also be sticked in the upper section with her video and cheering thread. :)


I don't care if both would be sticked in the upper section or not. :angel:



4) We should create a thread "News and articles" related to her to put everything concerning Julia issued from magazines or any sort of media source.


Yes, good idea.



5) Banditoo opened a Twitter thread it's a very very good idea but I think I would have regrouped it under the newly created "News and articles" thread.


Maybe :shrug:

coyets
Jul 20th, 2011, 11:27 AM
I think that:

Twitter should be a separate thread from "News and articles".

If the "News and articles" thread is not only for news and articles but also for everything concerning Julia from any sort of media source, then it ought to be called "Media" instead of "News and articles". On the other hand, since there is a "Pictures" thread and a "Video" thread, perhaps the thread really is just for news and articles, and in this case it would be better to call it "News and articles".

None of the threads we are discussing should be in the upper section, because the cheering thread will always be near the top.

It would have been better if the first postings in the video thread had not had so many videos per posting, but thank you to fleckes for putting them up. Perhaps we should help everyone with a slow computer by all just adding a few postings without videos to this thread so that it reaches a second page sooner.

The "Livescore" thread is a very good idea, but perhaps it should be expanded to general discussion of the current (or upcoming, or recent) tournament.

18majors
Jul 20th, 2011, 01:58 PM
I really like to see Julia in top 10 but it may take a while.

Vikapower
Jul 20th, 2011, 03:25 PM
I think that:

Twitter should be a separate thread from "News and articles".

If the "News and articles" thread is not only for news and articles but also for everything concerning Julia from any sort of media source, then it ought to be called "Media" instead of "News and articles". On the other hand, since there is a "Pictures" thread and a "Video" thread, perhaps the thread really is just for news and articles, and in this case it would be better to call it "News and articles".

THe thing is I have a hard time placing Twitter exactly... it's a very important source of information nowadays and it's basically only where we can have a direct contact with Julia -- :lol: ok maybe not talk to her but I mean that it's a source where there is not intermediate or journalist that processes her sayings before publication so it's kind like of a direct contact. :lol:

She uses Twitter to say her feelings after a match, to talk about her future tournaments etc... etc... so I think it's really important -- now where do we place that !? That's where I thought of reuniting the 2 because IMO it's as important as her News and articles.

None of the threads we are discussing should be in the upper section, because the cheering thread will always be near the top.

Well no not always, especially when we haven't posted in her real cheering thread for long and this is where the confusion comes with the other threads like Bad Gastein where discussions about Julia which should have been in her cheering thread were taking place too. I can understand that if someone who is not accustomed comes, he/she would have a hard time differentiating her normal cheering thread from her live-score one since both are are used for the same purposes.

I watched the general trend on TF and almost all player forums have the most important threads sticked and all what has been esteemed to be not under -- the idea is as soon as you come on the player forum you know where to click and go without having to go through all the threads, reading, clicking and dicing. :lol:

It would have been better if the first postings in the video thread had not had so many videos per posting, but thank you to fleckes for putting them up. Perhaps we should help everyone with a slow computer by all just adding a few postings without videos to this thread so that it reaches a second page sooner.

Yes, Fleckes did a great job and the only thing we might do to allow some others to access the very first page is distribute the Youtube videos in the thread better and not concentrate all of them like he did on the first page. I haven't seen him for long around but if so I will propose the idea for others comfort. ;)

The "Livescore" thread is a very good idea, but perhaps it should be expanded to general discussion of the current (or upcoming, or recent) tournament.

Perhaps but from experience and before Julia had her sub-forum, we had both live-score and cheering thread in the same which resulted in excessive pages to me over 300 in the Meet Julia Görges vol.1. That's why I believe that each thread should have a specific function -- a Livescore thread to me has no other specific functions than enumerating the scores or "discussing" about a match in which Julia is actually engaged. :shrug:

---

Thanks for taking time to share your opinion, if you have any other ideas then you're welcomed. :wavey:

Vikapower
Jul 20th, 2011, 03:26 PM
Yes, it should be in the upper section.



Good idea.



I don't care if both would be sticked in the upper section or not. :angel:




Yes, good idea.




Maybe :shrug:

:lol: Thanks Mk at least short and precise. :lol:

Banditoo
Jul 20th, 2011, 03:50 PM
We need the schedule thread. This is goood idea for me :)
If we have Livescore thread that will be good.
`When and why did you become a Goerges fan` thread it will be excellent.
And thread for Jul in doubles competition will be good.
This is from me. :)

fleckes
Jul 20th, 2011, 03:56 PM
All good ideas here. MY take on this:
Cheering Threead in the uppe section? YES
Livescore Thread? Hell YES
Video and Picture Thread in the upper section? Maybe
News and Arcticles Thread? Definately YES
Twitter Thread? The thing is: I think it doesn't fit in the News and Articles Thread. But just a Twitter Thread is maybe a little bit strange, because, because she doesn't say a lot in most of her tweets. Most of the time she twitters pictures of her new nail polish. Not that I don't fin it adoreable, but worthy of a own thread it's not. But of course Twitter shouldn't be left out, so to combine it with Interviews may be a good idea.

To the video thread: I'll edit my postings and I try to stretch out the videos over more postings. Let's see how it goes

fleckes
Jul 20th, 2011, 04:23 PM
Now I'm finished with the editing of my video posts. I stretched it over 3 pages so now it sould be better watchable for those with slower computers. If there is still something to improve just let me know. The bad thing is that the videos aren't in a chronological order anymore, but well there worse things

Vikapower
Jul 20th, 2011, 04:30 PM
^^ Ok many thanks Fleckes, great job... wait for the feed-backs and we'll see how things we'll go ;) - I sent you a PM before I had read your post but no probs. :lol:

As for the chronological order, you could always click Edit, click Go Advanced and edit the Title section of your post with the event, the date etc... to compensate things. :wavey:

BTW Skoo hasn't said nothing yet...

All good ideas here. MY take on this:
Cheering Threead in the uppe section? YES
Livescore Thread? Hell YES
Video and Picture Thread in the upper section? Maybe
News and Arcticles Thread? Definately YES

Well good, so we are at 3 to want stick Julia's cheering thread and Coyets thinks we shouldn't -- no one cares or is indecisive to stick Julia's video/picture thread or not and only me supporting the idea. :lol:

Twitter Thread? The thing is: I think it doesn't fit in the News and Articles Thread. But just a Twitter Thread is maybe a little bit strange, because, because she doesn't say a lot in most of her tweets. Most of the time she twitters pictures of her new nail polish. Not that I don't fin it adoreable, but worthy of a own thread it's not. But of course Twitter shouldn't be left out, so to combine it with Interviews may be a good idea.

:lol: I think you exaggerated a bit, she does say some very interesting things for example when she has just finished a match - her feelings about it, her schedule etc... I'm not saying that it's Time's Magazine like informations but as fans and especially when she's not playing for long it's such a great manner to keep the contact with her.

Plus her Twitter pictures are awesome and lovely :lol: -- anyways I understand your idea of ot wanting to put a unique Twitter thread that's the reason I wanted to reunite it into the News and Articles especially News.

We need the schedule thread. This is goood idea for me :)
If we have Livescore thread that will be good.
When and why did you become a Goerges fan` thread it will be excellent.
And thread for Jul in doubles competition will be good.
This is from me. :)

Generally we talk of the schedule in the Cheering thread -- Yes good idea but don't forget we have a Welcome section for that, you are free to say and tell how you met Julia there. ;)

As for the doubles thread, I don't think it's necessary... most of us rarely speak or pay interest to doubles and generally we're just content to give the result and eventually cheer if Julia did well but a specific thread about doubles, I don't think.... Thanks. :)

Banditoo
Jul 20th, 2011, 04:56 PM
Generally we talk of the schedule in the Cheering thread -- Yes good idea but don't forget we have a Welcome section for that, you are free to say and tell how you met Julia there. ;)

As for the doubles thread, I don't think it's necessary... most of us rarely speak or pay interest to doubles and generally we're just content to give the result and eventually cheer if Julia did well but a specific thread about doubles, I don't think.... Thanks. :)

I`m here from april. I think i tell you why am Goerges fan in MeetJul vol1. :p
Ooooo. What do oyu think abaut chat thread?
For schedule thread i will say that every subforum have it for ow subforum player. :)

joy division
Jul 20th, 2011, 08:42 PM
Thanks to Fleckes for his big effort to collect all videos of Julia, and now again for splitting the Youtube videos on different pages. For me it works without problems now.:wavey:

My proposals after reading the last 2 pages and looking at other players forums are :

Upper section

Welcome - everybody`s free to introduce

Julia`s live score thread

Julia`s cheering thread - Schedule, discussion, views, etc. inside
(might be too packed, Schedule could have an own thread )

Julia`s photo thread - Julia`s twitter photos could be there, too.

Julia`s video thread

News and articles - Printed Press, etc. about Julia

What julia says - Interviews and Twitter

Basic section

More special things, if needed like

When and why I did you become a Görges fan
her advertising activities
Grand slams, etc.

Root
Jul 20th, 2011, 09:42 PM
Ok I thought about it and here are some things we should do for Julia's player forum to organize it better - I wish we could discuss about it and tell me if you agree or disagree on the different points :wavey: :

1) We should ask a moderator to stick Julia's "official cheering thread" in the upper section where we can and could talk anything related to or about Julia (...) :lol: I think we've been posting anywhere and everywhere sometimes about very very interesting subjects about her or related to her that finds place in her cheering thread and not really in the Livescore(s) ones -- That would also help the visitors and others to have a better view.

We should rename that thread something like "Meet Julia Görges - Cheering thread" or if someone has a better idea. ;)

2) We should perhaps create an official Livescore thread so that we don't have to open one at each and every tournament Julia will play, kind of overloading, no, after a certain amount of events played :lol:

3) Howard created Julia's video thread and it's quite an important one so I would also stick it in the upper section and maybe rename it to something like "Julia Görges video thread" or anyways something better.

4) We should create a thread "News and articles" related to her to put everything concerning Julia issued from magazines or any sort of media source.

5) Julia's photo thread is very important (not because I post in it often :lol:) but because it's probably the window of her player forum and mainly where all visitors would go at first so I think it should also be sticked in the upper section with her video and cheering thread. :)

5) Banditoo opened a Twitter thread it's a very very good idea but I think I would have regrouped it under the newly created "News and articles" thread.

Tell me if you agree or disagree and eventually propose better ideas. Thanks. :)

I hope there's still some room for one more opinion. :lol:

1. Meet Julia Görges already acts as a cheering thread, which was previously used for everything. I agree on the livescoring bit. There should be another thread for live scores. IMO, there should be one live scores thread instead of creating one for every tournament. Never been a fan of it to be honest.

2. Yup. :)

3. The videos thread along with the pictures one could be stickied.

4. A news and articles thread is bound to be opened in every player forum. :lol: I wouldn't group the twitter one with the news and articles. As fleckes posted, I don't think there should be a whole thread for twitter but that's just me. But as joy division suggested, we could group it together under "Interviews and Twitter".

We could also have one thread for her schedule, statistics, ranking, etc. There could be an off-topic thread for days when she's not playing and this thread is the only place to go. :lol:

To sum it up:

Meet Julia Görges (main thread for everything that doesn't fit in the others)
Live Scores thread
Videos thread (on-court/off-court)
Photos thread (on-court/off-court)
News and Articles thread
Interviews and Twitter thread (maybe)
Off-topic thread
Schedule/Statistics/Ranking thread

Vikapower
Jul 20th, 2011, 11:23 PM
I hope there's still some room for one more opinion. :lol:

:lol: Yes you're welcomed, I don't have in mind everyone that usually posts on Julia's forums but I forgot you :) -- there's also CherryRed I think also.

1. Meet Julia Görges already acts as a cheering thread, which was previously used for everything. I agree on the livescoring bit. There should be another thread for live scores. IMO, there should be one live scores thread instead of creating one for every tournament. Never been a fan of it to be honest.

Well I think most of us agree on that, the thing now is do we stick or not (The cheering thread) !? I think we should.

3. The videos thread along with the pictures one could be stickied.

I think they should because they're certainly the most important threads of a player's forum anyways for me... especially the picture thread. :lol:

4. A news and articles thread is bound to be opened in every player forum. :lol: I wouldn't group the twitter one with the news and articles. As fleckes posted, I don't think there should be a whole thread for twitter but that's just me. But as joy division suggested, we could group it together under "Interviews and Twitter".

Ok, good, I prefer the "Interviews and Twitter" than my News and Articles ol'school wording so I think we should go with your idea.

We could also have one thread for her schedule, statistics, ranking, etc. There could be an off-topic thread for days when she's not playing and this thread is the only place to go. :lol:

Yes, I was thinking of proposing the off-topic thread but was scared to... :lol: anyways that's a good idea. I'm not good at all at rankings :roll:s so I will let Micheal or TennisObserver or anybody else for that. :lol:


To sum it up:

Meet Julia Görges (main thread for everything that doesn't fit in the others)
Live Scores thread
Videos thread (on-court/off-court)
Photos thread (on-court/off-court)
News and Articles thread
Interviews and Twitter thread (maybe)
Off-topic thread
Schedule/Statistics/Ranking thread

Nice, I wished we could do that before Stanford who is in 4 days and I really like these -- we should find good names for the threads and start fixing everything. ;)

Root
Jul 20th, 2011, 11:50 PM
Yes, this thread should be stickied along with videos and pictures.

I was having some fun grouping Kvitova's Wimbledon stats so Julia's should be no problem. Match stats, wins against top 20s, match duration, ranking points, H2H against top 20s, surface wins/loss ratios, etc. And you did a fine thread for Kvitova's stat in the Statistics section. :D Anyone is welcome to contribute too.

I think if you pm one of the administrators, you can get the threads stickied and creating the rest won't take much time. As for names, I was thinking the old plain and simple titles such as "Player name News and Articles..." etc. :lol:

Vikapower
Jul 21st, 2011, 12:24 AM
Yes, this thread should be stickied along with videos and pictures.

I was having some fun grouping Kvitova's Wimbledon stats so Julia's should be no problem. Match stats, wins against top 20s, match duration, ranking points, H2H against top 20s, surface wins/loss ratios, etc. And you did a fine thread for Kvitova's stat in the Statistics section. :D Anyone is welcome to contribute too.

:lol: Ok --- Thanks, in thinking about that I need to update the thread :lol: Yes Julia's stats are not that difficult to group since she didn't play that much on the tour with effeciency or only just recently in 2009 around... but best of luck, it's a harassing job. :lol: - Hopefully you'll share the results ; I didn't understand the contribution part... :)

I had to do it 5 times, Julia, Sabine, Vika, Petra and Andrea. - I'm still hesitating to do Nastya Pavlyu and Sorana. :tape:

I think if you pm one of the administrators, you can get the threads stickied and creating the rest won't take much time. As for names, I was thinking the old plain and simple titles such as "Player name News and Articles..." etc. :lol:

Yes exactly but I'm not sure if to create a new cheering thread with a new name (like Meet Julia Görges vol. 2 - Official cheering thread ; just an example) or just keep the one we actually have - if we change the name, Paule22 hasn't posted here since January. :lol:

I should just be breaking my head so much. lol.

Root
Jul 21st, 2011, 12:32 AM
I don't think we need a name change or a new thread to be honest, but if more people agree on that, you can ask an administrator or even a moderator to edit the thread title, they are able to do that.

Vikapower
Jul 21st, 2011, 01:00 AM
^^ I think everyone would agree to keep the old thread, it's just me over-thinking things too much perhaps... Tomorrow I will PM rrfnpump our moderator to do these -- I'll create the Interviews and Twitter thread like you proposed just now since I'm just busy at something. ;)

Banditoo
Jul 21st, 2011, 06:37 AM
Ok. What do you think for chat thread? :)

coyets
Jul 21st, 2011, 07:54 AM
Well good, so we are at 3 to want stick Julia's cheering thread and Coyets thinks we shouldn't -- no one cares or is indecisive to stick Julia's video/picture thread or not and only me supporting the idea.

Following Vikapower's reasoning in reply to my earlier comment, I am no longer convinced that Julia's cheering thread should not be stuck, but I still think that the sub-forum would be easier to navigate if the video and picture threads were left unstuck.

crazillo
Jul 21st, 2011, 08:42 AM
Except for the Twitter thread, I agree on everything.

18majors
Jul 21st, 2011, 12:52 PM
Julia needs to get to Stanford and get ready for the US Hardcourt Season.

Vikapower
Jul 21st, 2011, 01:53 PM
Following Vikapower's reasoning in reply to my earlier comment, I am no longer convinced that Julia's cheering thread should not be stuck, but I still think that the sub-forum would be easier to navigate if the video and picture threads were left unstuck.

Well yes, I'm ok with both, I asked for the her cheering thread and picture thread, I don't know for the rest yet. :)

Banditoo
Jul 21st, 2011, 02:02 PM
Mods must to join two thread - @juliagoerges whit Julia Görges Interviews and Twitter thread. :)

Banditoo
Jul 22nd, 2011, 08:04 AM
Where I must post the GIF whit Julia?

Root
Jul 23rd, 2011, 01:33 AM
FortyDeuceTwits
BOOM. Serena in Masha's quarter, will play...RODIO. #hahahahahahahhahah. Winner plays winner of Gools/MaKiri.


Julia's R1 is Kirilenko. If she's through, she's playing Serena (or Rodionova if she somehow wins).

Vikapower
Jul 24th, 2011, 05:33 PM
The "celebration moves" are those that come after winning a tough point, set, match. Collapsing in joy on the clay at Stuttgart was indeed very sexy, but look at the celebration after the match with Safarova. Those are the gestures of a schoolgirl. Also that jerking pumped fist move, the thumbs-up move and lately she adopted that bending-and-come-on-in-the-fist move that we can see from Ana or Serena. Maybe they're not necessarily ugly (one can argue they are rather sweet), but most of them are not the celebrations of champions and they convey immaturity. Aesthetically, for me, there is a high contrast between these moves and her elegant strokes.

Well you know all these are quite subjective so I can't argue with or against you on that. There are adepts of the come on's, encouragements and stuffs and those who are against

Also, sometimes it looks like a problem of timing. She gets there in time, but doesn't hit in the best moment (especially when she tries the FH DTL).

Exactly. BTW if you're interested, I just read an article from the the British Journal of sports medecine called "Unforced errors and error reduction in tennis" who attests 100% of the affirmation you stated. If you would like scientific explanation then you can have a look at it. :lol:

In short, it says that one of the reasons for lateral errors is that the player who tries to redirect a shot DTL sometimes do not have the time to bring the racket strings parallel to ball which results into wild errors laterally e.g. Julia. :lol: it explains now how to reduce these by increasing the racket head speed so that your strings come parallel in time and many other things. ;)

You can read it then if you want have a talk about it. :) -- PDF - "Unforced errors and error reduction in tennis" (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2577482/pdf/397.pdf)

Furthermore, at least in her "glory days", she hit a lot of winners from uncomfortable positions. Probably the best point in the final at Stuttgart was the passing shot at 4-2 and 0-30 (or something like that, you might know the point I'm talking about). That ended in the SF at Madrid (fatigue again?). She did hit occasional winners on the run again, but the percentage must have been much lower.

Yes, I think I remember what you're speaking about. :lol: I remember against Caro she hit a passing shot I think it was on her service game to end the match -- these kinds of shots she would rarely hit in the past.

In Madrid, she was way to fatigued to produce anything near her good level to compete with Victoria.

Skoo
Jul 24th, 2011, 06:16 PM
Well you know all these are quite subjective so I can't argue with or against you on that. There are adepts of the come on's, encouragements and stuffs and those who are against

I was not saying that she should not make them, but that she makes them in an ugly (imo), childish manner. I prefer the aggresive, rather manly come ons & co. of Petko and others. But this doesn't really matter, because I find her strokes (including serve) the most elegant and pleasant to watch in WTA.


Exactly. BTW if you're interested, I just read an article from the the British Journal of sports medecine called "Unforced errors and error reduction in tennis" who attests 100% of the affirmation you stated. If you would like scientific explanation then you can have a look at it. :lol:

In short, it says that one of the reasons for lateral errors is that the player who tries to redirect a shot DTL sometimes do not have the time to bring the racket strings parallel to ball which results into wild errors laterally e.g. Julia. :lol: it explains now how to reduce these by increasing the racket head speed so that your strings come parallel in time and many other things. ;)

You can read it then if you want have a talk about it. :) -- PDF - "Unforced errors and error reduction in tennis" (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2577482/pdf/397.pdf)

No, science is bad. I follow Radwanska's advice and I'm not ashamed of Jesus anymore. He will tell me all I need to know about UEs :lol: Of course I want to read it. Thanks and we'll discuss it asap.

In Madrid, she was way to fatigued to produce anything near her good level to compete with Victoria.

Yes, but I wonder if it was a physical of psychological fatigue. She either has problems sleeping, eats a lot of junk food, or has neurasthenia. They woke her up at 7 in the morning at Stuttgart before the SF and she was still 100%. My money is on the psychological etiology :)

Vikapower
Jul 24th, 2011, 06:33 PM
I was not saying that she should not make them, but that she makes them in an ugly (imo), childish manner. I prefer the aggresive, rather manly come ons & co. of Petko and others.

Well as I told you, quite subjective... :lol: On GM through out the years many have criticized Ana's com on's, twists, double salto come on's etc... some others like me kind of of them cool though sometimes she does them way to excessively. :lol:

No, science is bad. I follow Radwanska's advice and I'm not ashamed of Jesus anymore. He will tell me all I need to know about UEs :lol: Of course I want to read it. Thanks and we'll discuss it asap.

:lol:

This article based on verified facts from a credible source made me understand a good part of why Julia faces so much difficulties in redirecting shots that comes cross-court DTL especially with her FH she attempts often in open stance -- I have been questioning for a while now but never really understood what caused that or anyways never had the complete explanation why.


Yes, but I wonder if it was a physical of psychological fatigue. She either has problems sleeping, eats a lot of junk food, or has neurasthenia. They woke her up at 7 in the morning at Stuttgart before the SF and she was still 100%. My money is on the psychological etiology :)

I think it was both. It was the first time ever in her career she had backed up 2 such good performances on the WTA tour and especially in Premier events so it's logically difficult to get such rhythm at once if you're not yet a top player or on the verge of becoming one.

I think this could be one of the explanations to her inconsistency on the bigger stages, finding the rhythm of a top player anyways a top 20 player, keeping the intensity from Premier to Premier eventsn majors, and cruising with it. Not easy at first to get but that's what sets a side top 10 to a top 50.

Having the ability to keep the intensity, the fire every time -- many girls are talented e.g. like Jarka etc... but very few are able to do that time and time again on a very long period.

Skoo
Jul 24th, 2011, 07:27 PM
This article based on verified facts from a credible source made me understand a good part of why Julia faces so much difficulties in redirecting shots that comes cross-court DTL especially with her FH she attempts often in open stance -- I have been questioning for a while now but never really understood what caused that or anyways never had the complete explanation why.

Indeed. The part about reducing lateral errors was very counterintuitive. Well, not changing the angle was pretty obvious the best solution, but the fact that the horizontal angle of the ball and the power of the swing are inversely related is not what you would normally suppose. I would never have thought that choking is caused by that. I would have supposed that it's about shaky hands or something. But then again I'm not a physicist :) But doesn't she (and all the others) learn? After doing it time and time again and getting the same results (UEs), you must think something is not quite right.

And this is quite different from what I understood by timing. I was saying something like you see Julia going for a certain shot, but maybe she is not really convinced about it, and hits it too late. Or maybe too soon. That would, I thought, simply make her miss because she wouldn't get the right height. Figure 1 would explain the UEs on the FH DTL when she hits the ball in the right moment but not with the optimum power. And I say it again, it is so counterintuitive if you don't play yourself :)

I completely agree with what you said in the last part.

HowardH
Jul 24th, 2011, 07:30 PM
I do feel that Julia often looks a little more tired than her opponent. The reason is uncertain. Her natural walk- even when fresh- is a relaxed and slower pace, not an energetic pace, so I do think she has a little less energy than some other players.

I think that Julia's timing on the wrist movement of her fh is sometimes a little off. If you compare the wrist movement of, say, probably the two best fhs in recent years, Federer and Nadal, you notice that they "release" the wrist very early, so early that their wrist is often nearly fully extended by the time they contact the ball. As a result they are rarely late on the fh.

In a certain way Julia has a slight tendency to "drag" the racquet through the contact zone, with her wrist remaining laid back for just a little too long. Naturally the fact that she takes a very big wind up contributes to this. When she is already in position and still makes an error, mistiming the wrist movement is normally the problem. There are other players who also drag the racquet through the contact zone, but most are not trying to hit as hard as Julia.

Some people do make that kind of error on dtl shots where they need more racquet speed, but I feel that Julia is not one of them- well, sometimes on the bh side perhaps. That kind of error looks a little different and is usually due to tightness or nerves- the swing is quite good but a bit slow and ball just barely slides wide. It doesn't look like Julia's wild errors- which are the products of a mistimed wrist movement. I suppose you could say that when Julia makes her wrist movement too late on the fh, the racquet does not accelerate enough before contact, but that is because Julia did not flick the wrist early enough to reach max speed at contact. I guess in a different way it's the same thing, but Julia's errors often have huge racquet speed- the timing is just a little off.

As mentioned by Vikapower, her balance and footwork also play a role. On shots which pull her off balance she will naturally struggle, but this will normally result in forced errors, not unforced ones.

Jarka's biggest problem will probably prove to be her bh. She has many days when her bh is erratic. Julia's bh is much better by comparison, much safer, better spin and control.

Skoo
Jul 24th, 2011, 07:39 PM
I think that Julia's timing on the wrist movement of her fh is sometimes a little off. If you compare the wrist movement of, say, probably the two best fhs in recent years, Federer and Nadal, you notice that they "release" the wrist very early, so early that their wrist is often nearly fully extended by the time they contact the ball. As a result they are rarely late on the fh.

In a certain way Julia has a slight tendency to "drag" the racquet through the contact zone, with her wrist remaining laid back for just a little too long. Naturally the fact that she takes a very big wind up contributes to this. When she is already in position and still makes an error, mistiming the wrist movement is normally the problem. There are other players who also drag the racquet through the contact zone, but most are not trying to hit as hard as Julia.

That's exactly what I meant, mentioning that I see it rather as a matter of decision making, not technique, since on average (I think) she doesn't have the timing problem. Only when it matters :help:

HowardH
Jul 24th, 2011, 07:52 PM
That's exactly what I meant, mentioning that I see it rather as a matter of decision making, not technique, since on average (I think) she doesn't have the timing problem. Only when it matters :help:

You could put it that way. For players with great control over the wrist movement, like Roger and Rafa, all they have to do is focus on moving the wrist early enough and they won't be late.

But there are many other players who have, like Julia, a tendency to be a bit late with that wrist movement and who end up "dragging" the racquet too much sometimes. The trick is that players often develop a feel for lateness- they recognise it as it is happening and make a little compromise at the last moment to make the shot. Whereas Julia sometimes doesn't recognise it early enough.

Also, Julia doesn't like to compromise her swing much on the fh. In big moments perhaps her sense that she is about to make an error is not well developed enough. It's very subtle, but a player can sense it a little before contact and make a correction. The best fhs make the correction so smoothly that you can barely see any compromise at all.

The opposite would be someone like Agnieszka, who swings much slower but is constantly making changes to the swing. This is not the way for a player with a big fh- since it results in a style which improvises all the time (it also results in shots that are less than pretty), but Julia does need to be able to "adjust" a little better when she discovers, at the last second, that she is not going to be able to contact in an ideal way.

Skoo
Jul 24th, 2011, 08:48 PM
HowardH I had to read you reply several times and I think I managed to grasp it in the end :) So basically it wouldn't matter if she chances her mind in the last moment if she had more control of the wrist. She would still be able to make the correct shot no matter where the ball is. Right? :)

Vikapower
Jul 24th, 2011, 09:18 PM
I do feel that Julia often looks a little more tired than her opponent. The reason is uncertain. Her natural walk- even when fresh- is a relaxed and slower pace, not an energetic pace, so I do think she has a little less energy than some other players.

I'm not really sure about that, Julia is not that type of hyper-active player like Marion... :lol: I know sometimes she kinds of shows that lethargic attitude but I think it's just her being so than anything else. :lol: We were talking about that sometime where I said I doubted Julia is an extravagant person even in real life, I think she's composed on court though we all know sometimes it's the forest shadowing her inner doubts. I find that pretty that she looks so composed on court then when you watch her play, especially when on a bad day how she seems so wild with her shots and all. :lol:

I think that Julia's timing on the wrist movement of her fh is sometimes a little off. If you compare the wrist movement of, say, probably the two best fhs in recent years, Federer and Nadal, you notice that they "release" the wrist very early, so early that their wrist is often nearly fully extended by the time they contact the ball. As a result they are rarely late on the fh.

I'm not sure Julia uses her wrist... on the FH take-back, she keeps her wrist kind of laid back and keeps it still till contact point. Now, it's not a necessity to use that whip on the FH, it just adds a little racquet head speed.

In a certain way Julia has a slight tendency to "drag" the racquet through the contact zone, with her wrist remaining laid back for just a little too long. Naturally the fact that she takes a very big wind up contributes to this. When she is already in position and still makes an error, mistiming the wrist movement is normally the problem. There are other players who also drag the racquet through the contact zone, but most are not trying to hit as hard as Julia.

Now also think that her footwork had something to do with it... I was never a fan of Julia doing all these small, small little adjustment steps when she turns around her FH -- it doesn't help you find the distance efficiently SIC Bollitieri on tennis.com.

Some people do make that kind of error on dtl shots where they need more racquet speed, but I feel that Julia is not one of them- well, sometimes on the bh side perhaps. That kind of error looks a little different and is usually due to tightness or nerves- the swing is quite good but a bit slow and ball just barely slides wide. It doesn't look like Julia's wild errors- which are the products of a mistimed wrist movement. I suppose you could say that when Julia makes her wrist movement too late on the fh, the racquet does not accelerate enough before contact, but that is because Julia did not flick the wrist early enough to reach max speed at contact. I guess in a different way it's the same thing, but Julia's errors often have huge racquet speed- the timing is just a little off.

As I said earlier I'm not sure Julia uses her wrist that much like a whip or maybe I'm the one confused... on that video from Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ravanloon/4970996276/) you can see the slo mo's and she seems to be keeping her wrist pretty straight.

Julia to me relies on the quickness of her hands and racquet head to get the racquet strings (she left dragging in first instance) in time to make contact with the ball -- now the slightest that she's late at doing so then it can result in a catastrophe. Often Julia tries to redirect DTL her FH on shots that comes fast or relatively fast on her and this is where she comes late despite all her attempts to compensate for her huge take-back she misses a lot than she makes.

When Julia has time to set up for that shot her FH DTL is a marvelous, clean, powerful and devastating. :hearts:

Vikapower
Jul 24th, 2011, 09:26 PM
Indeed. The part about reducing lateral errors was very counterintuitive. Well, not changing the angle was pretty obvious the best solution, but the fact that the horizontal angle of the ball and the power of the swing are inversely related is not what you would normally suppose. I would never have thought that choking is caused by that. I would have supposed that it's about shaky hands or something. But then again I'm not a physicist :) But doesn't she (and all the others) learn? After doing it time and time again and getting the same results (UEs), you must think something is not quite right.

Nice you appreciated it and yes I would never thought too that "choking" came from that and yet it's SO logical -- :lol: When a player feels the pressure, she will naturally reduce her racquet head because she wants to play conservative or maybe just can't feel the relax to swing as usual yet, she might want to keep playing the same zones with that reduced racquet head speed so it's all logical, she doesn't have time to bring her strings parallel to the ball enough in time and we know the results.

Howard is right though Julia doesn't make lateral errors mainly because of her racquet head speed. Julia has quick hands in general so it's most probably a problem of wrong decision making trying to T off the wrong ball at the wrong moment, placement also maybe she doesn't get herself well behind FH to get it the DTL etc... there are so much possible scenarios and it's sometimes a mix of all. :lol:

And this is quite different from what I understood by timing. I was saying something like you see Julia going for a certain shot, but maybe she is not really convinced about it, and hits it too late. Or maybe too soon. That would, I thought, simply make her miss because she wouldn't get the right height. Figure 1 would explain the UEs on the FH DTL when she hits the ball in the right moment but not with the optimum power. And I say it again, it is so counterintuitive if you don't play yourself :)

I completely agree with what you said in the last part.

Yes, conviction plays a role a huge role in your shots on court... I think sometimes she might get caught in between her state of mind and the reality of things. I explain myself, we all know Julia is an aggressive player who loves to dictate things but during an exchange, she see that it isn't a shot to be aggressive but she's so eager to take control over things that nonetheless tries to take a cut at the ball for an impossible winner and there you go.

I think mind =/= mindset... Julia knows when and how to go for her shots but she's programed to be aggressive and take cuts at the ball so all how she sees that she can't hit a huge FH DTL off a relatively fast ball, her mindset refutes and makes her go for it anyhow. :rolls:

I'm not sport psychologist at all so I can't explain that super. :rolls:

Skoo
Jul 24th, 2011, 10:21 PM
I get the feeling I don't understand much anymore. I choked :lol: I am a psychologist (that never played tennis) and before this the she choked hypothesis was so comforting. Now I feel I'll never know what's wrong with her. I hope you guys come up with a definitive explanation. Or better yet, that she won't do it again :lol:

Vikapower
Jul 24th, 2011, 11:27 PM
I get the feeling I don't understand much anymore. I choked :lol: I am a psychologist (that never played tennis) and before this the she choked hypothesis was so comforting. Now I feel I'll never know what's wrong with her. I hope you guys come up with a definitive explanation. Or better yet, that she won't do it again :lol:

:lol: Well to be honest it's that simple, I can resume the above for you or if you're really not in for it. :angel:

It's by discussing about the game that you'll take your honors (I went through that too when I decided to understand and not only cheer...) ; you have some good analysis already and for the technical standpoints well it's just taking slow motions of Julia's shots and watching THEM, not HER (I know she's lovely) time and time again. :p :lol:

BTW articles like the PDF ones are very helpful, this one was quite complex though for somebody who not accustomed but they're very helpful -- by all means we'll be having these same discussions time and time again because Julia never gives us a break until when she becomes perfect on-court. :lol:

Vikapower
Jul 24th, 2011, 11:33 PM
BTW I just saw something on statistics talking about forced errors and how to calculate them and aggressive margin -- which is a formula to calculate how much points a player has gained during the course of a match through aggressive play. :lol: (New-York times)

I kind of amused myself to that for Julia's matches in the majors and surprisingly she doesn't create that much forced errors. It's either a clear winner or an UE with her :lol: I think that illustrates very well her shotmaking game. :angel:

I'm convinced that the all made up stats doesn't always tell the complete stories on how well or bad Julia played -- I'll watch out for these next time for better interpretation of her matches. :lol:

Tennis Observer
Jul 25th, 2011, 06:39 AM
As all these stats assume a point to point count, IMO you need to watch the match (preferable on court) to judge about players performance!

Skoo
Jul 25th, 2011, 08:45 AM
:lol: Well to be honest it's that simple, I can resume the above for you or if you're really not in for it. :angel:

It's by discussing about the game that you'll take your honors (I went through that too when I decided to understand and not only cheer...) ; you have some good analysis already and for the technical standpoints well it's just taking slow motions of Julia's shots and watching THEM, not HER (I know she's lovely) time and time again. :p :lol:

BTW articles like the PDF ones are very helpful, this one was quite complex though for somebody who not accustomed but they're very helpful -- by all means we'll be having these same discussions time and time again because Julia never gives us a break until when she becomes perfect on-court. :lol:

It would be nice to have a summary. I wanted to make one myself, but my eyes couldn't bare it anymore last night. Now that you made an offer, go ahead :)

Why would one join a forum only to cheer? If you're not analyzing the game, you have Twitter and Facebook for cheering and saying how much you love her :lol: And I'm offended if you think I'm watching her more than them. I'm watching her only when she's bending or jumping at the receiving end :lol:

The article was indeed very helpful and, as I've said, counterintuitive. It offered a new insight and a sense of a-ha! But then Howard introduced the wrist into the scheme and it got blurry. "...there are so much possible scenarios and it's sometimes a mix of all", therefore: "I get the feeling I don't understand much anymore." :lol: Have to watch some more slow motion of her bouncing I guess :lol:

Banditoo
Jul 25th, 2011, 11:20 AM
Do you have a favorite surface ?
JG: Grass.


Woooow! What a transformation. In 2009 she`s favourite surface is grass. Now she favourite surface is clay, maybe. This is very interesting. She have only 11 match on grass. Her movement on grass is not from best thing by her skills.She have a long legs and when boll came low she have a difficulties. I don`t watched a Jul when she played on grass in 2009 - Is anyone watched her in 2009 on grass? Now she more like when boll came hight until shoulder for to more easy attack.

Movement on grass is much important than hard court and clay. People saying - On grass are reveals disadvantages of tennis player. I believe in this. Julia is very good in movement than before but she have much thing to be very good in movement. This is major disadvantage and creates many errors. The weak place in Goerges game is movement, unfortunately. :shrug::[

Vikapower
Jul 25th, 2011, 04:41 PM
It would be nice to have a summary. I wanted to make one myself, but my eyes couldn't bare it anymore last night. Now that you made an offer, go ahead :)

The article was indeed very helpful and, as I've said, counterintuitive. It offered a new insight and a sense of a-ha! But then Howard introduced the wrist into the scheme and it got blurry. "...there are so much possible scenarios and it's sometimes a mix of all", therefore: "I get the feeling I don't understand much anymore." :lol: Have to watch some more slow motion of her bouncing I guess :lol:

To not overload the thread too much I sent you a PM (Private message) with the explanations, videos etc... on the laid back wrist then you can talk to me about it here. ;)

Why would one join a forum only to cheer? If you're not analyzing the game, you have Twitter and Facebook for cheering and saying how much you love her :lol: And I'm offended if you think I'm watching her more than them. I'm watching her only when she's bending or jumping at the receiving end :lol:

Not everyone is interested in technique and stuffs like that. :lol: As you might guess it's very subtle not complex but subtle.

Well you know even I myself can't prevent watching HER despite how intense the match is, how captivating her slow motions are --- she's just very lovely. :angel: We're all humans after all -- you're even better placed to explain the psychological side of that. :lol:

Banditoo
Jul 25th, 2011, 04:46 PM
To not overload the thread too much I sent you a PM (Private message) with the explanations, videos etc... on the laid back wrist then you can talk to me about here. ;)
Not everyone is interested in technique and stuffs like that. :lol: As you might guess it's very subtle not complex but subtle.
Well you know even I myself can't prevent watching HER despite how intense the match is she's just very lovely. :angel: We're all humans after all -- you're even better placed to explain the psychological side of that. :angel: :lol:

:[ This discussion was a very good and i learn many think by his... You don`t overload the thread. This is very interesting (for me)...

Vikapower
Jul 25th, 2011, 04:50 PM
:[ This discussion was a very good and i learn many think by his... You don`t overload the thread. This is very interesting (for me)...

:lol: Well there were videos of Federer and all and everything not specifically related to Julia. I will send you a private message of what I posted to Skoo. Check your inbox. :angel:

Banditoo
Jul 25th, 2011, 05:07 PM
:lol: Well there were videos of Federer and all and everything not specifically related to Julia. I will send you a private message of what I posted to Skoo. Check your inbox. :angel:


Thank you very much!

Skoo
Jul 25th, 2011, 06:34 PM
OK, now I understand what's the deal with the wrist movement, but Vlada and Howard seem to be in contradiction. I watched some slow motions with FHs by Federer, Nadal, and Julia and the big difference seems to be that she lays back the wrist very early and she releases it some time after the contact with the ball. Federer and Nadal hit the ball with their wrist laid back too, but they lay it back later than Julia and realease it earlier, but it is still laid back at contact.

As I understand, Howard says that the problem is "with her wrist remaining laid back for just a little too long". And Vlada says that laying the wrist back too early lengthens the trajectory of the racquet head so she meets the ball too late at times. That is pretty much common sense, but I still don't understand what Howard meant, especially since I don't see a significant difference between Julia's wrist position and those of Federer and Nadal at the contact point. Do I need to watch some more? :)

Vikapower
Jul 25th, 2011, 07:56 PM
OK, now I understand what's the deal with the wrist movement, but Vlada and Howard seem to be in contradiction. I watched some slow motions with FHs by Federer, Nadal, and Julia and the big difference seems to be that she lays back the wrist very early and she releases it some time after the contact with the ball. Federer and Nadal hit the ball with their wrist laid back too, but they lay it back later than Julia and realease it earlier, but it is still laid back at contact.

I didn't understand what you said precisely but you need to take in consideration the grips too -- Federer hits with and eastern grip, Nadal with a western grip and Julia with a semi-western one so it doesn't give the same perception at contact.

Second the video I posted about Federer, he is probably taking the ball way before the rise and even from his take back you can see that it's not a full one so that is to take in consideration also. The photo I posted of Julia in the yellow outfit, she's hitting her classic forehand which she will follow through over her left shoulder.

A last thing in Federer's take back, he doesn't lay back his wrist as Julia's on his preparation -- you can see it from his strings. If he did so, his strings would be facing the sky and not the back fence.

As I understand, Howard says that the problem is "with her wrist remaining laid back for just a little too long". And Vlada says that laying the wrist back too early lengthens the trajectory of the racquet head so she meets the ball too late at times. That is pretty much common sense, but I still don't understand what Howard meant, especially since I don't see a significant difference between Julia's wrist position and those of Federer and Nadal at the contact point. Do I need to watch some more? :)

The PM I sent you was for you to have a general overview on what the laid back wrist was -- I showed you what Julia does on her preparation with her racquet that indeed lengthens the trajectory of her racquet head additionally with her take-back and can cause problems especially when the balls come fast at her, other pro's do not do that -- now what Howard told you is what happens between take-back and contact point if I'm not mistaken, basically what happens when she has dropped her hand to swing at the ball.

As you saw on the photo with her yellow outfit she really has a big flexion of the wrist. Now the thing is I don't feel she does, like contrary to Federer, is snaps her wrist. While her upper body uncoils, she slowly gets that wrist into position until her racquet is parallel with ball but I have the impression that her arm has stayed the same.

I made a slow motion video on Youtube (watch in the appropriate thread) since there are none... tell me if this helps, I'll make some better quality, with different perspectives from her match against Marion in Roland-Garros and upload them just now. :cool:

HowardH
Jul 25th, 2011, 08:21 PM
As all these stats assume a point to point count, IMO you need to watch the match (preferable on court) to judge about players performance!

True. Because you need to see the flow of the match and see the context for each shot. Certain moments are more important than others. Some errors count more than others, some winners count more than others. If you make a bad error but still win that game, then the error is not very costly. If you hit some good winners but still lose that game those winners become less valuable, because they don't contribute to the score.

For me, the main stat I look at is the % of serving pts won, i.e. who is doing better on serve. Whoever is higher in this category normally wins the match, unless they lose in tiebreaks or have very bad BP conversion. After all, whoever holds serve more often tends to win. I also find it interesting to see the % of points won behind first and second serves separately.

If winner/forced error/UE stats are available, I like to see a player's Winners+opponent's forced errors - UE, in order to see how well their attacks were paying off. This seems to be basically the same as what Vikapower was calling "aggressive margin". There is little difference in my mind between a clean winner and a totally forced error from the opponent.

and for the technical standpoints well it's just taking slow motions of Julia's shots and watching THEM, not HER (I know she's lovely) time and time again. :p :lol:
by all means we'll be having these same discussions time and time again because Julia never gives us a break until when she becomes perfect on-court. :lol:

As Vikapower says, we will tend to have quite a lot of these kinds of discussions in Julia's forum. This is partly because here in Julia's forum we have had a lot of people who like to discuss technique and analyse various things about tennis for a while, so I think a little discussion of such a thing, so long as Julia is involved, is fine. But PMs are also fine, esp if someone feels what they want to post is too off topic.

And yes, I am sometimes guilty of watching slow motion videos of Julia for less than analytical reasons. Ahem.

I'm not sure Julia uses her wrist... on the FH take-back, she keeps her wrist kind of laid back and keeps it still till contact point. Now, it's not a necessity to use that whip on the FH, it just adds a little racquet head speed.

You quoted Ravanloon's flickr vids- I think her wrist movement on her fh is more visible in these two:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ravanloon/4970016811/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ravanloon/4970029299/

However, I think seeing this wrist movement takes a lot of practice or experience, even in slow motion. If you look at Ravanloon's videos of the atp players it will be easier to see, most likely, since the men use the wrist better as a whole. One thing I would say is that if you experiment and try to replicate Julia's fh contact point, you will probably discover (if your wrist has reasonable flexibility, which all good tennis players have) that you are able to lay the wrist back further at that contact- i.e. Julia's wrist is not 100% laid back at contact.

Good modern players inevitably use some wrist movement during topspin forehands. It's true that not everyone uses the wrist as actively as Federer and Nadal (Verdasco is also very active with the wrist, as are all of the top fhs on the atp). Roger and Rafa move the wrist so much that it is often clearly visible that they have uncocked the wrist significantly at contact point (it continues to uncock even further after contact, and if they were not making an effort to uncock the wrist the ball impact would actually discourage this from happening). This makes their fhs more like a serve, which has an active uncocking, and therefore gives them tremendous power and/or racquet head speed. Active uncocking is probably the future of tennis groundstrokes, since once mastered it delivers very high levels of power and spin.

There once was a time when people were trained to keep the wrist cocked during contact. Some still teach this, but this is a little old fashioned now. A locked wrist offers a lot of stability but the power level is a little low. A player using a locked wrist is more likely to slow down the swing and "choke", and find their balls sliding wide when they get nervous. The strength required to keep the wrist locked when swinging at speed against a fast ball is also quite high.

Tennis is a very difficult sport to be accurate in. I've read studies that show it requires more accuracy and better timing than other racquet sports such as badminton, squash or table tennis. A few degrees off in racquet angle or a few milliseconds off in timing and you will miss the shot by a couple of feet. However, pros do become very proficient at this and develop a strong sense of timing and a feel for the racquet angle. The question then becomes, why does someone who should have a well developed sense of timing and angle, like Julia, sometimes miss by so much?

As I said before, I don't feel that Julia is one of those players who tends to slow down her racquet speed under pressure, so she is not prone to the type of lateral errors caused by slow racquet head speed which have been described above. (However, many club players are prone to this- if in doubt, swing at the same speed you train at, not slower, under pressure).

Some of her errors are undoubtedly caused by footwork and balance, but I think that the fact that Julia's wrist movement in the fh is sometimes hard to see is also part of the problem. Julia brings her hand through fast and has a loose wrist, and this produces a force that tends to make the racquet head lag. If she doesn't counter this by releasing her wrist forwards, her racquet angle will be a little off. When she tries to go hard down the line I think this is the kind of error she tends to make. I think she likes to focus on bringing the hand through fast, as Vikapower mentions, but with her power and wrist flexibility she probably needs to have a little more focus on the wrist release in order to prevent the mistake of leaving the racquet too laid back at contact.

Vikapower comments on Julia's fh preparation, and this is definitely part of it. Julia's big backswing followed by a fast forward swing produces a particularly large "lag force" which pulls the racquet head back so she requires better wrist movement than average to compensate for this. Facing the sky with the racquet face at the back complicates matters and adds an extra dimension to the movement towards the ball. In other words, her part to the contact point is more complicated, whereas for Roger and Rafa, the path to the ball is relatively simple and straightforward. On the dtl, where she tends to wait for a slightly later contact, she often finds herself with very little time to overcome this lagging racquet head and to move out of her unusual backswing position. Compared to Federer and Nadal she is starting in a very different backswing position which complicates matters and makes it more likely for her to be late.

There is definitely a difference in the wrist and arm position at contact of Federer and Nadal and even Verdasco compared to Julia. Their wrists are more "stretched" and "uncocked" compared to Julia's wrist at contact which is still relatively bent and laid back. But, all tennis swings look vaguely the same to people who are not used to the intricacies of technique, so I understand these differences are subtle.

Skoo
Jul 25th, 2011, 09:09 PM
I made a slow motion video on Youtube (watch in the appropriate thread) since there are none... tell me if this helps, I'll make some better quality, with different perspectives from her match against Marion in Roland-Garros and upload them just now. :cool:

It doesn't help. I watched some FHs from that match at RG and compared them with those of Federer and Nadal and didn't notice any significant difference at the point of contact. That is probably because:

But, all tennis swings look vaguely the same to people who are not used to the intricacies of technique, so I understand these differences are subtle.

So I probably won't notice the difference just yet. I don't even make the connections between all the terms and observation. However, I think "uncocked" might clear things up a little bit.

Anyway, the main idea is that some of her lateral UEs are not caused by that law of physics (speed inversely related to horizontal angle), but by bad timing which is itself caused by the wrist technique :)

Vikapower
Jul 25th, 2011, 11:48 PM
^^ Howard uses the good terms that's why he's better at explaining things than I am, that's for sure. :lol: "Uncock" is the definite term and your main idea is quite the right one.

You quoted Ravanloon's flickr vids- I think her wrist movement on her fh is more visible in these two:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ravanloon/4970016811/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ravanloon/4970029299/

However, I think seeing this wrist movement takes a lot of practice or experience, even in slow motion. If you look at Ravanloon's videos of the atp players it will be easier to see, most likely, since the men use the wrist better as a whole. One thing I would say is that if you experiment and try to replicate Julia's fh contact point, you will probably discover (if your wrist has reasonable flexibility, which all good tennis players have) that you are able to lay the wrist back further at that contact- i.e. Julia's wrist is not 100% laid back at contact.

I watched the first video and at 0:10 Julia flicks her wrist but most probably because she's on the run -- BTW, she doesn't complete that flick with a complete follow through.

In english does flick means the same thing as uncock etc... I think I royally messed up myself there -- I have a clear image of what I want to say in french but really can't find the correct terms in english to put them into highlights, unfortunate -- but anyways I misused these terms.

Good modern players inevitably use some wrist movement during topspin forehands. It's true that not everyone uses the wrist as actively as Federer and Nadal (Verdasco is also very active with the wrist, as are all of the top fhs on the atp). Roger and Rafa move the wrist so much that it is often clearly visible that they have uncocked the wrist significantly at contact point (it continues to uncock even further after contact, and if they were not making an effort to uncock the wrist the ball impact would actually discourage this from happening). This makes their fhs more like a serve, which has an active uncocking, and therefore gives them tremendous power and/or racquet head speed. Active uncocking is probably the future of tennis groundstrokes, since once mastered it delivers very high levels of power and spin.

:yeah:

There once was a time when people were trained to keep the wrist cocked during contact. Some still teach this, but this is a little old fashioned now. A locked wrist offers a lot of stability but the power level is a little low. A player using a locked wrist is more likely to slow down the swing and "choke", and find their balls sliding wide when they get nervous. The strength required to keep the wrist locked when swinging at speed against a fast ball is also quite high.

I correct myself when I said her wrist is "still" - wasn't appropriate -- her wrist does come back into position but what I wanted to signify is that it doesn't come back as quickly as Rodg and Raf. I don't think she's the type of FH which the wrist just kinds of snaps back into position to contact like Rodg and that's what I wanted to say mainly in all these. :lol:

Victoria she to me has no wrist action and she kind of has the old school FH you described.

Some of her errors are undoubtedly caused by footwork and balance, but I think that the fact that Julia's wrist movement in the fh is sometimes hard to see is also part of the problem. Julia brings her hand through fast and has a loose wrist, and this produces a force that tends to make the racquet head lag. If she doesn't counter this by releasing her wrist forwards, her racquet angle will be a little off. When she tries to go hard down the line I think this is the kind of error she tends to make. I think she likes to focus on bringing the hand through fast, as Vikapower mentions, but with her power and wrist flexibility she probably needs to have a little more focus on the wrist release in order to prevent the mistake of leaving the racquet too laid back at contact.

Her primary source of errors are her footwork definitively. She doesn't get quick enough and doesn't place herself as precisely especially to go DTL -- one of the reasons her BH DTL is more solid than her forehand is that she comes in closed/square stance on the BH side, she's much more stable there.

On the DTL FH, she often comes in open stance, sit and lift, very much, which endangers her upper-body and the slightest it is not in line with her base of support or pulling too much one side or the other and her CP can be inconsistent.

One last thing also is Julia isn't always as disciplined with her body and especially with her feet who often does have a tendency to go anywhere and everywhere sometimes during and after contact -- she has done a great job during the years to reduce all these parasites.

Banditoo
Jul 26th, 2011, 04:37 AM
Pics on Goerges forehand in AO:

http://img19.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=77815_JuliaGoergesAO2011R1_60_001_12 2_375lo.JPG

http://img107.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=77817_JuliaGoergesAO2011R1_61_122_36 6lo.JPG

http://img273.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=77819_JuliaGoergesAO2011R1_62_122_25 lo.JPG

Skoo
Jul 28th, 2011, 05:38 PM
Did she have a better seconde serve once (ie at Stuttgart)? Or did her opponents have problems with the return? I remember she had almost 100% points won on her second serve in the first set of the final. And it was usually not a problem if the first didn't go in.

Ayumilover.
Jul 28th, 2011, 06:08 PM
^^ Howard uses the good terms that's why he's better at explaining things than I am, that's for sure. :lol: "Uncock" is the definite term and your main idea is quite the right one.



I watched the first video and at 0:10 Julia flicks her wrist but most probably because she's on the run -- BTW, she doesn't complete that flick with a complete follow through.

In english does flick means the same thing as uncock etc... I think I royally messed up myself there -- I have a clear image of what I want to say in french but really can't find the correct terms in english to put them into highlights, unfortunate -- but anyways I misused these terms.



:yeah:



I correct myself when I said her wrist is "still" - wasn't appropriate -- her wrist does come back into position but what I wanted to signify is that it doesn't come back as quickly as Rodg and Raf. I don't think she's the type of FH which the wrist just kinds of snaps back into position to contact like Rodg and that's what I wanted to say mainly in all these. :lol:

Victoria she to me has no wrist action and she kind of has the old school FH you described.



Her primary source of errors are her footwork definitively. She doesn't get quick enough and doesn't place herself as precisely especially to go DTL -- one of the reasons her BH DTL is more solid than her forehand is that she comes in closed/square stance on the BH side, she's much more stable there.

On the DTL FH, she often comes in open stance, sit and lift, very much, which endangers her upper-body and the slightest it is not in line with her base of support or pulling too much one side or the other and her CP can be inconsistent.

One last thing also is Julia isn't always as disciplined with her body and especially with her feet who often does have a tendency to go anywhere and everywhere sometimes during and after contact -- she has done a great job during the years to reduce all these parasites.

She definitely has defining strokes.
Forehand- she is the only player i know of(except maybe paszek) that tips the racquet over her head before she swings. This generates a lot of power but gives her less time as we all know. Its a really unique swing and a year ago, i started hitting like that and its quite effective when working.

Backhand- Its almost like a baseball swing. She really raises her left shoulder before swinging. I think that adds spin. I've noticed that its becoming increasingly pacier and she is starting to hit winners with it.

Serve- The main two things is that she really exxagerates the wrist whcih increases flatness, and she also follows through the shot by landing on her left leg, while many players end up on their right.

Vikapower
Jul 28th, 2011, 06:41 PM
^^ :lol: Yes, I will develop on what you said in sometime now, I'm following to much things in one time.

Did she have a better seconde serve once (ie at Stuttgart)? Or did her opponents have problems with the return? I remember she had almost 100% points won on her second serve in the first set of the final. And it was usually not a problem if the first didn't go in.

You should really ask Howard about that, he defines Julia's serve very very well. ;)

Skoo
Jul 28th, 2011, 06:47 PM
You should really ask Howard about that, he defines Julia's serve very very well. ;)

Yeah, he defines very very well almost everything about her. And you're not that bad yourself :)

Vikapower
Jul 28th, 2011, 07:11 PM
Yeah, he defines very very well almost everything about her. And you're not that bad yourself :)

:o -- Just kidding :lol:, he knows Julia for very long, me, it's just been a year from July 2010 though I knew her for quite some time before (perhaps 3-4 months) but didn't know if to become her fan or not... when I saw her play Caro in Copenhagen I knew we were made to be together. :oh:

Vikapower
Jul 29th, 2011, 08:32 PM
Speaking about exchanges I was just reading the first pages of this from ITF coaching on the Rally ball and it really reminded me Julia from her performance in Stanford. :lol: There's also that PDF on the tactical trend of women's tennis I also found it pretty interesting : Link (http://www.itftennis.com/shared/medialibrary/pdf/original/IO_6672_original.PDF). ;)

Skoo
Jul 30th, 2011, 10:03 AM
With the help of the tactical trend pdf, the match can be summed up in one sentence: Serve and big FH/early BH Julia was defeated by serve and baseline control Kiri :) I'm still waiting Howard to explain what happened to her serve after Stuttgart :)

Ayumilover.
Jul 30th, 2011, 04:25 PM
With the help of the tactical trend pdf, the match can be summed up in one sentence: Serve and big FH/early BH Julia was defeated by serve and baseline control Kiri :) I'm still waiting Howard to explain what happened to her serve after Stuttgart :)

There were about 5 times where Jules missed an open court BH, and about 5 times where she appeared to hit a FH winner only for Kirilenko to get it back and eventually win the point. It's the small things that made the big difference.

Skoo
Jul 30th, 2011, 04:54 PM
There were about 5 times where Jules missed an open court BH, and about 5 times where she appeared to hit a FH winner only for Kirilenko to get it back and eventually win the point. It's the small things that made the big difference.

Maybe so, but with that kind of serve I think she would have lost anyway against such a consistent player. We can never know what could have happened if not for those "stupid" errors, but since she made most of her errors in prolonged rallies, there is a big probability she would have lost anyway.

Banditoo
Aug 19th, 2011, 07:45 AM
If we make a parallel with real life and tennis maybe we will understand more thing for tennis at large.
Serve - First impression in everywhere. How we start to communicating. How we start to working. How we start to whiting comments or something else. In tennis serve is first chance to attack, but maybe in real life serve is first impression or how you start something?
Winner - Success or maybe progress in something. Advancement in work... Absolutely right thing in one comment. Good way for communicate...
UE - Thing whose you are inflict to yourself. Wrong decision inflicted by wrong reasoning, wrong matching, wrong choice and many other thing. As I saw this problem is human problem not personality problem, because this problem - we can't to be on 100% every second of our life - is from birth... In tennis reasons can will be a movement, balance, mentally problem, injury, wrong choice on hit or many other thing.
FE - This errors are inflicted by other people. Here is very hard to make a parallel.Because in real life you must be do something for to do something to you. In tennis forced errors are inflicted by opponent. She can be play smart or have a great serve or maybe very diffident thing by opponent game to difficulted you. Maybe ball-bashing or pushing or maybe something else...

I think if we develop this parallel we will understand more tennis. Because we are lived more then to watched tennis. This will help our to understand Julia problem better. What do you think? :lol:

Skoo
Aug 19th, 2011, 11:19 AM
If we make a parallel with real life and tennis maybe we will understand more thing for tennis at large.
Serve - First impression in everywhere. How we start to communicating. How we start to working. How we start to whiting comments or something else. In tennis serve is first chance to attack, but maybe in real life serve is first impression or how you start something?
Winner - Success or maybe progress in something. Advancement in work... Absolutely right thing in one comment. Good way for communicate...
UE - Thing whose you are inflict to yourself. Wrong decision inflicted by wrong reasoning, wrong matching, wrong choice and many other thing. As I saw this problem is human problem not personality problem, because this problem - we can't to be on 100% every second of our life - is from birth... In tennis reasons can will be a movement, balance, mentally problem, injury, wrong choice on hit or many other thing.
FE - This errors are inflicted by other people. Here is very hard to make a parallel.Because in real life you must be do something for to do something to you. In tennis forced errors are inflicted by opponent. She can be play smart or have a great serve or maybe very diffident thing by opponent game to difficulted you. Maybe ball-bashing or pushing or maybe something else...

I think if we develop this parallel we will understand more tennis. Because we are lived more then to watched tennis. This will help our to understand Julia problem better. What do you think? :lol:

I think you should have posted this in the chat thread :)

Banditoo
Aug 19th, 2011, 11:31 AM
I think you should have posted this in the chat thread :)

Ok, if someone want to discuss this, please do this in chat thread. :lol:

Skoo
Aug 20th, 2011, 12:32 AM
:lol: Petra has enormously progressed and one of the reasons/secrets she won a major and Julia has none is that she has been abled to pose the game much more with an intermediate one conventionally called rally balls than in the past for sure. Petra was an all or nothing girl in the past and she considerably took a huge step in relaxing her game.

As far as the numbers are concerned, Petra forces much more errors from her opponents than Julia, why ? She hits the ball relentlessly flat, hard, her shots are persistently well place on the court and that's a considerable amount of pressure.

Droppers are not the only shots that can create forced errors it's a whole - just by lifting the ball up high you can force errors from a certain type of girl, by slicing the ball low or just by putting a considerable amount of weight into your shots you can also force errors...

I really didn't see that in Petra's matches. She does seem to me like she's always going for a winner (and I'm definitely not the only one) :) Maybe she was even more of an all or nothing player in the past, IDK, but rallying is not her biggest "weapon". Petko indeed rallies a lot longer than she did in the past, but she doesn't put as much pressure on the opponent because she doesn't hit that hard. Petra goes almost every time for the lines (relentlessly flat, hard), and very oftenly DTL, and that doesn't seem to be a rallying strategy. Of course, dropshots are one of the less used methods to force an error, but what else other than hitting hard and deep does Petra do? :shrug:

We don't know that Julia foces less errors than Petra. From the few stats I have right now without a search, the number Ws and FEs seem to be pretty close: 35 and 32 vs Cibulkova, 32 and 28 vs Sharapova. Also 36 and 22 against Wozniacki at Madrid might be significant, since is not very easy to force errors against Wozniacki and in the 2nd set Julia probably made just a few Ws. It was very different against Bartoli: 48 and 20, but that was because Bartoli had very good anticipation and usually what was supposed to be a W or a FE from Julia turned into one of Julia's FEs.

Since I know Julia, she has always had rallying problems, just rallying. Just re-watch Copenhagen 2010 to Caroline Wozniacki and compare her rallying abilities to AO 2010 vs. Sharapova and you can see how the quality of her shots have progressed and this especially on the BH side.

Definitely. I haven't seen the match against Maria, but she could indeed rally longer at Stuttgart and Toronto also.


In the match in Toronto vs. Serena I've heard a commentator say that Julia does not have an intermediate game and it's not the first time I've heard it. One of the reasons for her inconsistency is that she can not pose the game - on clay though this year she was able to do that.

On clay she would take her time, move the girls around, construct etc... before she would attempt for a winner and it is convenient to say since then, she has been unable to reapply that efficiently. One could argue it's because of the HCs or Decoturf etc... but the facts are pretty much standing to her disfavor.

Personally I stand to the fact that Julia's best HC match ever for me was vs. Sharapova, not because of the intensity or amount of winners she hit but because it was the first time I had the impression that the quality of her intermediate shots were so good - and indeed they were and it's really not always the case with her.

I also heard commentators several times that she was basically wacking it before, but now there's more than that to her game. She doesn't have an intermediate game, but, IMHO, she tries more than Petra to have one. She uses the dropshot more often, she tries to create a W opportunity with high balls (which worked so well at Stuttgart and even against Serena -- I guess that's why she said Julia played smart) and she tries to move the opponent around (she did that against Sharapova, Bartoli, Wozniacki and probably many other matches).

Why is Petra more succesful? I'd say because she hits hard and deep consistently, not only for a set, like Julia. Petra did lose the final at Eastbourne after having a Julia-like collapse in the third set and something pretty similar happend at RG. But most of the time she doesn't look relaxed/tired, she is playing pretty much like Julia did against JJ on a regular basis. They both play aggressive and, if Julia had Petra's consistency, you would probably get a similar number of Ws and FEs from both. Again, they are not like Vika or Makiri (or Bartoli), that take the ball early, keeping the pressure on the weaker side (or any side) until they get the FE.

Even if I didn't see the match at AO, I kind of got that impression too from the highlights. But that might be also the reason why she lost. There is one point where she uses a dropshot, Maria reaches the ball and puts it back in play, then Julia tries a lob and gets a smash in return :) After that, she remains in place, probably asking herself why she had to do that :) Playing smart it's just not her type now. It works some times, but thinking too much increases RT a lot. You need to make the decision very fast. She wins (usually just a set) by playing aggressive with a lot of confidence. After all, she did say that her biggest problem is that she thinks about many things at a time :)

Ayumilover.
Aug 20th, 2011, 01:00 AM
^^ Just for the record, Petra lost at the French because Li played superb, not because she collapsed in her game.

I do agree that now, Kvitova is more consistent and hits slightly harder, but in a forehand(to kvitova's bh) rally, I think Julia is stronger. She just needs to develop that consistancy. After all, Julia and Petra have similiar games where when they are on, they are nearly unstopable, but when off, expect the worst. Remember, when these two played less than a year ago on the indoor fast hardcourts, Julia lost just three games.
I think from a result like that, where she also beat an in form Ana dropping just 4 games, we know Julia can play on all surfaces. It's just more of a period. For two months, she'll be great, for the next couple, things don't go great. I'm confident though that my signature regarding her can come at least half-way true. She's too good not to win a grandslam.
That loss to bartoli was the worst loss of her career. If she hadn't choked away that match, she would probably be a grand slam finalist (assuming she could have potentially beaten schiavone, and would have like lost to Na). Instead, we just have to be patient.

Vikapower
Aug 20th, 2011, 03:15 AM
I really didn't see that in Petra's matches. She does seem to me like she's always going for a winner (and I'm definitely not the only one) :) Maybe she was even more of an all or nothing player in the past, IDK, but rallying is not her biggest "weapon". Petko indeed rallies a lot longer than she did in the past, but she doesn't put as much pressure on the opponent because she doesn't hit that hard. Petra goes almost every time for the lines (relentlessly flat, hard), and very oftenly DTL, and that doesn't seem to be a rallying strategy. Of course, dropshots are one of the less used methods to force an error, but what else other than hitting hard and deep does Petra do? :shrug:

:lol: Well hitting relentlessly hard, flat can be a rallying strategy just like hitting with a lot of lift e.g. Nadal or with different variances like Radwanska or Murray.

What else does she do ? Well, that's her bread and butter to aggress other players on a relentless base but she can definitively do many other things like come up to the net, slice like she displayed in Wimbledon.

Petra's rally balls are of such quality that it makes it very hard for her opponents to control her shots at first instance - but don't get mistaken though grass is not a surface to rally on, exchanges are generally short and quick so you would not expect her to rally that much on the surface.

From this video right there you can see how quality-full her rallying shots are : 0:10 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JkwvES97qI&feature=player_detailpage#t=9s), 0:38 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JkwvES97qI&feature=player_detailpage#t=38s), 0:61 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JkwvES97qI&feature=player_detailpage#t=61s), 1:05 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JkwvES97qI&feature=player_detailpage#t=105s) etc... in terms of speed, flatness and placement... watch Wozniacki's attitude -- in many of these conventional shots she wasn't always at the research of a winner.

Now compare this to Julia vs. Maria AO 2011 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIbWkoa5tA4) - granted Julia hits a ball with much more spin but you can clearly see that on a vast majority of these conventional shots, she doesn't have the same weight and precision as Petra... even on the run.

We don't know that Julia foces less errors than Petra. From the few stats I have right now without a search, the number Ws and FEs seem to be pretty close: 35 and 32 vs Cibulkova, 32 and 28 vs Sharapova. Also 36 and 22 against Wozniacki at Madrid might be significant, since is not very easy to force errors against Wozniacki and in the 2nd set Julia probably made just a few Ws. It was very different against Bartoli: 48 and 20, but that was because Bartoli had very good anticipation and usually what was supposed to be a W or a FE from Julia turned into one of Julia's FEs.

To know that you might need to make an average... I haven't completed all the stats yet so I'll give an answer later.

Definitely. I haven't seen the match against Maria, but she could indeed rally longer at Stuttgart and Toronto also.

Well the fact is not to rally longer but to rally with quality. I think it's convenient to say that it's much much more complicated to T-off Petra Kvitova's rally shots than it would be off Julia's perhaps because of the spin etc... but yes many of these shots lacks weight.

I also heard commentators several times that she was basically wacking it before, but now there's more than that to her game. She doesn't have an intermediate game, but, IMHO, she tries more than Petra to have one. She uses the dropshot more often, she tries to create a W opportunity with high balls (which worked so well at Stuttgart and even against Serena -- I guess that's why she said Julia played smart) and she tries to move the opponent around (she did that against Sharapova, Bartoli, Wozniacki and probably many other matches).

Well as I showed Petra's intermediate game is big she doesn't need to try more than that :lol: Julia who doesn't have one or not as developed needs to try something and I approve.

The high balls was a good strategy for her on clay against Caro for example to prepare for her FH, that's a rallying strategy and definitively I like the fact that she's trying to be a little bit more versatile in her ball-striking than so completely black or white but these does not translate efficiently on HCs. Her first match in Stanford she was exactly the contrary of the player she has tried to be on clay and she lost convincingly in straight.

Why is Petra more succesful? I'd say because she hits hard and deep consistently, not only for a set, like Julia. Petra did lose the final at Eastbourne after having a Julia-like collapse in the third set and something pretty similar happend at RG. But most of the time she doesn't look relaxed/tired, she is playing pretty much like Julia did against JJ on a regular basis. They both play aggressive and, if Julia had Petra's consistency, you would probably get a similar number of Ws and FEs from both. Again, they are not like Vika or Makiri (or Bartoli), that take the ball early, keeping the pressure on the weaker side (or any side) until they get the FE.

Well yes I agree on that, as I told you Petra progressed in that intermediate department, Julia hasn't yet and that's probably the reasons of her struggles on HCs... she needs these sequences of shots where she can rally with quality putting her opponents in difficulty but also preventing them from oppressing her.

Vikapower
Aug 20th, 2011, 03:16 AM
^^ Just for the record, Petra lost at the French because Li played superb, not because she collapsed in her game.

I do agree that now, Kvitova is more consistent and hits slightly harder, but in a forehand(to kvitova's bh) rally, I think Julia is stronger. She just needs to develop that consistancy. After all, Julia and Petra have similiar games where when they are on, they are nearly unstopable, but when off, expect the worst. Remember, when these two played less than a year ago on the indoor fast hardcourts, Julia lost just three games.
I think from a result like that, where she also beat an in form Ana dropping just 4 games, we know Julia can play on all surfaces. It's just more of a period. For two months, she'll be great, for the next couple, things don't go great. I'm confident though that my signature regarding her can come at least half-way true. She's too good not to win a grandslam.
That loss to bartoli was the worst loss of her career. If she hadn't choked away that match, she would probably be a grand slam finalist (assuming she could have potentially beaten schiavone, and would have like lost to Na). Instead, we just have to be patient.

Yes both Julia and Petra are shotmakers - the conversation though is around who has the best capacities at posing the game, constructing and working the opponent around the court without hitting that many tons of winners... who puts more pressure on the court in rallying than the other etc...

Dispeker
Aug 20th, 2011, 08:49 AM
^^ Just for the record, Petra lost at the French because Li played superb, not because she collapsed in her game.

I do agree that now, Kvitova is more consistent and hits slightly harder, but in a forehand(to kvitova's bh) rally, I think Julia is stronger. She just needs to develop that consistancy. After all, Julia and Petra have similiar games where when they are on, they are nearly unstopable, but when off, expect the worst. Remember, when these two played less than a year ago on the indoor fast hardcourts, Julia lost just three games.
I think from a result like that, where she also beat an in form Ana dropping just 4 games, we know Julia can play on all surfaces. It's just more of a period. For two months, she'll be great, for the next couple, things don't go great. I'm confident though that my signature regarding her can come at least half-way true. She's too good not to win a grandslam.
That loss to bartoli was the worst loss of her career. If she hadn't choked away that match, she would probably be a grand slam finalist (assuming she could have potentially beaten schiavone, and would have like lost to Na). Instead, we just have to be patient.

Hi Ayumilover! I think I haven't "talked" to you yet so I just wanted to say hello ;)

A lot of discussion is going on here, almost impossible to keep up with the pace :)

Skoo
Aug 20th, 2011, 12:17 PM
^^ Just for the record, Petra lost at the French because Li played superb, not because she collapsed in her game.

I do agree that now, Kvitova is more consistent and hits slightly harder, but in a forehand(to kvitova's bh) rally, I think Julia is stronger. She just needs to develop that consistancy. After all, Julia and Petra have similiar games where when they are on, they are nearly unstopable, but when off, expect the worst. Remember, when these two played less than a year ago on the indoor fast hardcourts, Julia lost just three games.
I think from a result like that, where she also beat an in form Ana dropping just 4 games, we know Julia can play on all surfaces. It's just more of a period. For two months, she'll be great, for the next couple, things don't go great. I'm confident though that my signature regarding her can come at least half-way true. She's too good not to win a grandslam.
That loss to bartoli was the worst loss of her career. If she hadn't choked away that match, she would probably be a grand slam finalist (assuming she could have potentially beaten schiavone, and would have like lost to Na). Instead, we just have to be patient.

Yes, Na Li deserves all the credit, but Petra was leading 3-0 in the third.

What happened last year is not that relevant since Petra was pretty much slumping like Julia is now and Julia was on the rise. Things would be very different now :)

She might be too good not to win a GS, but so was Dementieva and who would have given Schiavone a chance? Tennis is not by any means fair :) Yeah, that was a very bad loss, but IDk, maybe it wasn't choking. She was having a bad cough, something in her eye, maybe she had some fever and Bartoli surely made it hard for her, producing over 40 FEs (of course, that number would have been much lower with a more lively Julia, as it would have been in the match against Cibulkova).


:lol: Well hitting relentlessly hard, flat can be a rallying strategy just like hitting with a lot of lift e.g. Nadal or with different variances like Radwanska or Murray.

What else does she do ? Well, that's her bread and butter to aggress other players on a relentless base but she can definitively do many other things like come up to the net, slice like she displayed in Wimbledon.

If that is a rallying strategy, what is then a risky, all or nothing game? :lol: Oh, yes, I forgot about Petra's slice, but it is not really a trademark. But still, I don't remember Julia ever using the slice. Too bad :)

Petra's rally balls are of such quality that it makes it very hard for her opponents to control her shots at first instance - but don't get mistaken though grass is not a surface to rally on, exchanges are generally short and quick so you would not expect her to rally that much on the surface.

From this video right there you can see how quality-full her rallying shots are : 0:10 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JkwvES97qI&feature=player_detailpage#t=9s), 0:38 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JkwvES97qI&feature=player_detailpage#t=38s), 0:61 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JkwvES97qI&feature=player_detailpage#t=61s), 1:05 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JkwvES97qI&feature=player_detailpage#t=105s) etc... in terms of speed, flatness and placement... watch Wozniacki's attitude -- in many of these conventional shots she wasn't always at the research of a winner.

Now compare this to Julia vs. Maria AO 2011 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIbWkoa5tA4) - granted Julia hits a ball with much more spin but you can clearly see that on a vast majority of these conventional shots, she doesn't have the same weight and precision as Petra... even on the run.

Julia surely doesn't have the same weight and precision, but again, that is an intermediate game, not going relentlessly for the lines. It is indeed pretty weird that Julia forced so many errors in that match. Maybe most of them are made on serve.

In those highlights of Petra's match, she does seem more temperate, but that is last year, when you said she was quite the opposite. This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaqFBbQNpDw#t=05m32s), IMO, is a trademark point of her, which could have ended with that FE from Kim or with a winner against a slower runner. I think you can clearly see from these higlights that she goes for a winner for about 80% of the time.


To know that you might need to make an average... I haven't completed all the stats yet so I'll give an answer later.

Yes, but the average wouldn't mean much, since she only played a few matches at GSs and she had those collapses. This doesn't mean that your work is not appreciated :)


Well the fact is not to rally longer but to rally with quality. I think it's convenient to say that it's much much more complicated to T-off Petra Kvitova's rally shots than it would be off Julia's perhaps because of the spin etc... but yes many of these shots lacks weight.

True, and after watching some highlights of Julia's good matches, I agree she shouldn't force so many errors. She probably did that against Cibulkova because of the surface. What I can't agree with is that Petra does that because of an intermediate game, not because of constantly going for the winner.

Julia constructs the points so well at times, like against Maria, Caro, and Serena. And it is a bit weird that the commentator said that she does not have an intermediate game in the match against Serena. I think she showed there more than ever how smart she can play (again, Serena was not just saying that, she meant it). The match against Maria was probably the first one where she showed that, but against Serena it really was the peak.


Her first match in Stanford she was exactly the contrary of the player she has tried to be on clay and she lost convincingly in straight.

But you have to give credit to Makiri's intermediate game. Which Julia allowed by serving awful :)


Well yes I agree on that, as I told you Petra progressed in that intermediate department, Julia hasn't yet and that's probably the reasons of her struggles on HCs... she needs these sequences of shots where she can rally with quality putting her opponents in difficulty but also preventing them from oppressing her.

So, I say that it is Julia that progressed more in that department an you say it is Petra. I say Petra does not want to rally, and, as the theory (http://www.itftennis.com/shared/medialibrary/pdf/original/IO_29145_original.PDF) goes,

A good quality rally ball is one that does not give the opponent the opportunity to attack. This ball should be rising up past the baseline when the opponent contacts the ball. If you watch the position of the bounce of top players the ball is not always landing close to the baseline. A ball played with good effect can stop the opponent from attacking even when it is just past the service line on the court

Petra has a good quality "attacking ball" and the large number of FEs are determined by the fact that the players get to some of her should-be winners but can't put them back in play (and, of course, by good serving). Julia can have a good quality rally ball with which she can set up winners and, of course, her opponent's FEs should be lower. Petra is more consistent than Julia because of her mindset and maybe some of her (trained) abilities and power, not because of her game. Without those, Julia would beat her by dropping only three games :)

Vikapower
Aug 20th, 2011, 03:15 PM
If that is a rallying strategy, what is then a risky, all or nothing game? :lol: Oh, yes, I forgot about Petra's slice, but it is not really a trademark. But still, I don't remember Julia ever using the slice. Too bad :)

An all or nothing game is when a player goes for incredible shots even when the opportunity is not given to him/her and see what the outcome is... in Eastbourne, Stanford... Julia was playing all or nothing, winner or nothing anyways that's my definition.

Petra's reallying shots are not all or nothing they're pretty safe - it's the winners she goes for that SEEMS all or nothing since they're so surgically placed but I think they're not all or nothing. At that stage, if a player is abled to relentlessly place her shots so powerfully, so flatly and so precisely on a court time after time, match it has nothing to do with luck or whatever but just pure talent. :lol:

Petra's talent resides for me not in power but in the precision, Swiss-like precision she abled to get with her power shots almost each and every time - that's what was gifted to her and she's one of the best at it [...]

Julia does use the slice but when she's pulled out wide on the BH - you can reference her slice BH most preferably on clay (in the Safina match in Madrid, in Stuttgart, in RG vs. Bartoli etc...) on HCs it seems like she prefers to use the 2 hander on defense more.

Julia surely doesn't have the same weight and precision, but again, that is an intermediate game, not going relentlessly for the lines. It is indeed pretty weird that Julia forced so many errors in that match. Maybe most of them are made on serve.

:lol: I'm not saying any differently but we're just comparing the quality of shots here. As I told you I don't think Petra says in her mind "I need to go for the lines, I need to go for the lines... - it's just so her game goes.

Well statisticians count forced errors differently from majors to majors. :lol: On some other forum though I saw a discussion between a statistician from the AO and some other guy and he said that they're pretty much accurate in AO which I tend to believe contrary to Wimbledon.

In those highlights of Petra's match, she does seem more temperate, but that is last year, when you said she was quite the opposite. This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaqFBbQNpDw#t=05m32s), IMO, is a trademark point of her, which could have ended with that FE from Kim or with a winner against a slower runner. I think you can clearly see from these higlights that she goes for a winner for about 80% of the time.

:lol: Well you know these are highlights and this wasn't a good match from Petra even if the highlights tend to demonstrate differently... she was unable to keep the ball in play most of times and was very error prone in that Beijing HC encounter.

Yes 80% can be a good number - Petra looks to be offensive 95% of times to me, she's a shotmaker so her research of making that highlight winner is relentless. It doesn't look forced for her it's just a natural intrinsic characteristic of her game and fluency in technique etc...

True, and after watching some highlights of Julia's good matches, I agree she shouldn't force so many errors. She probably did that against Cibulkova because of the surface. What I can't agree with is that Petra does that because of an intermediate game, not because of constantly going for the winner.

Julia constructs the points so well at times, like against Maria, Caro, and Serena. And it is a bit weird that the commentator said that she does not have an intermediate game in the match against Serena. I think she showed there more than ever how smart she can play (again, Serena was not just saying that, she meant it). The match against Maria was probably the first one where she showed that, but against Serena it really was the peak.

Well if Julia had a quality-full intermediate game she wouldn't be making so much UEs at first because she would be able to rally comfortably and create better opportunities for her winners and FH especially. Now, Julia is very uncomfortable on HCs (Decoturf perhaps more), she doesn't have enough time to pose her game like on clay so that could be a first explanation of the why.

In Eastbourne again it was another illustration of why she is so black or white - when things are bad, she doesn't have that in between game to say you know what today isn't my day so I'll just work Ana around the court, force her into errors etc... no, it's either a 10 000 mile out UE or a mesmerizing winner against Safarova it was the same thing in RG... the difference is that, that time she was abled to take a deep breathe not go for outright winners like she was doing at first and do more thoughtful things on court.

Perhaps it's her mindset that does that, she wants to be aggressive too quick, too fast and it sometimes can display into an awful spectacle but definitively she will need to calm down her game if she wants hopes to compete with the higher ranked players. It's nice to be aggressive but in logic just like she showed on clay...

But you have to give credit to Makiri's intermediate game. Which Julia allowed by serving awful :)

Mmmm... no it's not the main reason, Lil'Maria is very good at rallying just like Wozniacki and Julia in a bad day these players become her worst nightmare because she can not contain the wound... you now find yourself into an opposition between someone who can't place any shots into the court against somebody who does on a regular basis and sometimes more than usual.

So, I say that it is Julia that progressed more in that department an you say it is Petra. I say Petra does not want to rally, and, as the theory (http://www.itftennis.com/shared/medialibrary/pdf/original/IO_29145_original.PDF) goes,

Petra has a good quality "attacking ball" and the large number of FEs are determined by the fact that the players get to some of her should-be winners but can't put them back in play (and, of course, by good serving). Julia can have a good quality rally ball with which she can set up winners and, of course, her opponent's FEs should be lower higher. Petra is more consistent than Julia because of her mindset and maybe some of her (trained) abilities and power, not because of her game. Without those, Julia would beat her by dropping only three games :)

I think Petra has become more regular than Julia because it's simply grass. :lol: Grass is not a surface with many rallies and that suits Petra shotmaking brilliance very very well... it'd be interesting now to see how she'll export that on other surfaces and I'm sure she can.

Julia is consistent but obviously on clay and she had indeed a difficult time exporting that consistency elsewhere - if she does then perhaps in next RG she'll be lifting the trophy :lol: but there's a very long road to go though.

As the document states, Petra's intrinsic rallying qualities off the ground are much more accomplished than Julia :

"What I mean by that is, they need to be able to play matches without handing the match to the opponent by playing high % of unforced errors."

"A good quality rally ball is one that does not give the opponent the opportunity to attack. This ball should be rising up past the baseline when the opponent contacts the ball."

"A ball played with good effect can stop the opponent from attacking even when it is just past the service line on the court."

This article though is kind of stereotyped because in Petra's situation her shots are flatter but they have lots of weight and velocity - granted that Petra can or sometimes does put effects on the ball when she doesn't have the immediate solution though.

Vikapower
Aug 20th, 2011, 03:48 PM
Yes, but the average wouldn't mean much, since she only played a few matches at GSs and she had those collapses. This doesn't mean that your work is not appreciated :)

:lol: Yes I know :lol: it's exactly what I was thinking when I finished referencing the numbers. :cool:

For the majors :

http://i.imgur.com/0WHIV.png

Annotation

Discuss if you will - but I'll just highlight the AM% stat which is negative -4.81%. It is clear that Julia has a very very complicated time as soon as she has to work her opponent around, put her in complicated situations etc... with few UEs.

In other words, for every rally Julia will play in a certain amount of points you must expect 20.13% of UEs and 15.31% of good aggressive sequences that she'll successfully end with a winning play it's -4.82%.

From this table if I was to play Julia in major, I wouldn't try to overpower her or something, just controlled aggression - I would force her to rally with me for 4 or 5 shots around or more most of times either to come up with a winner myself, a forced error from her or an UE (...) I would force her to work her points around the court because she has a hard time doing so.

Otherwise in all the other shotmaking departments she's good, her aggressive margin is highly positive, her points won through aggression is remarkable 45.19 but in things related to pressuring the opponent efficiently (controlled aggression) well the numbers decline.

Banditoo
Aug 20th, 2011, 03:50 PM
What mean AM%?
Great job, thank you. :)

Vikapower
Aug 20th, 2011, 03:57 PM
What mean AM%?
Great job, thank you. :)

It's the projection of the aggressive margin in % from the total points of both players - it's the equivalent representation for controlled aggression if you wish... as Skoo made me remark this stat is better in comparison with her opponents because it doesn't mean much on it's own since it's extracted from the quality of the match and not from the player's individual performance - but I put it anyhow any ways. :D

Banditoo
Aug 20th, 2011, 04:13 PM
^ I can`t understand. Do you want to make a stats I and Skoo? For Julia opponent. This will be interesting, but we will be a ready after month, maybe. :lol:

Skoo
Aug 20th, 2011, 04:24 PM
An all or nothing game is when a player goes for incredible shots even when the opportunity is not given to him/her and see what the outcome is... in Eastbourne, Stanford... Julia was playing all or nothing, winner or nothing anyways that's my definition.

Petra's reallying shots are not all or nothing they're pretty safe - it's the winners she goes for that SEEMS all or nothing since they're so surgically placed but I think they're not all or nothing. At that stage, if a player is abled to relentlessly place her shots so powerfully, so flatly and so precisely on a court time after time, match it has nothing to do with luck or whatever but just pure talent. :lol:

Petra's talent resides for me not in power but in the precision, Swiss-like precision she abled to get with her power shots almost each and every time - that's what was gifted to her and she's one of the best at it [...]

Yeah, Julia was playing in Eastbourne and Stanford like Petra was playing in Toronto and Cincy :lol: Well, I guess she was playing about the same in Cincy, I didn't see her. So it's quite the same thing to both: no intermediate game, but, in her good days, Julia builds points more than Petra.

If they are so flat and hard, they must be all or nothing. Only a little bit of mistiming would get them in the wrong place. Petra had some ups and downs too this year and they are probably caused by the fact that her game depends as much as Julia's on the best mental state. Indeed, that is pure talent, but it must be also a lot of hard work, a lot of training to get a reflexive move for putting the ball near the lines.


Julia does use the slice but when she's pulled out wide on the BH - you can reference her slice BH most preferably on clay (in the Safina match in Madrid, in Stuttgart, in RG vs. Bartoli etc...) on HCs it seems like she prefers to use the 2 hander on defense more.

Yes, yes, I think I see it now :lol:


:lol: I'm not saying any differently but we're just comparing the quality of shots here. As I told you I don't think Petra says in her mind "I need to go for the lines, I need to go for the lines... - it's just so her game goes.

Of course, she doesn't need to say that anymore, it is a learned reflexive behavior now. She just knows she has to hit it, the non-conscious part of the brain will do the rest :) And it is the same thing with Julia, only she puts less pressure hitting higher (but her efficiency can be very close). All that is gone when they start to think too much about it. Here's an eloquent quote:

If you think about something that is performed reflexively, you simply mess it up. Therefore, it is crucial that the elite player develops a fully reflex–based technique. This will generate the highest possible racket–head speed of an elite athlete and thus maximize their performance/efficiency (p.73 (http://www.springer.com/engineering/computational+intelligence+and+complexity/book/978-3-642-17094-2))


Well if Julia had a quality-full intermediate game she wouldn't be making so much UEs at first because she would be able to rally comfortably and create better opportunities for her winners and FH especially. Now, Julia is very uncomfortable on HCs (Decoturf perhaps more), she doesn't have enough time to pose her game like on clay so that could be a first explanation of the why.

True, but look at this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puXwbK2V67o#t=02m12s), which happens a lot. She did rally well, Zheng was pushed far outside the court, she created to opportunity to hit the winner, she was there and sent it out. I really doubt that kind of UE has any other explanation than a cognitive one (probably making the decision too late, or just mistiming). And, you know, she does a lot of them on clay too. And she had only 5 of them against Serena in the 2nd set. I think in her good days she can hit much less UEs than Petra.


I think Petra has become more regular than Julia because it's simply grass. :lol: Grass is not a surface with many rallies and that suits Petra shotmaking brilliance very very well... it'd be interesting now to see how she'll export that on other surfaces and I'm sure she can.

Of course, Wimby and a final on grass and the SF at Wimby last year seem to indicate that her best surface is grass. But who knows what she would have done at RG if she didn't meet Na Li where, despite what Ayumilover says, she kinda choked :lol: Which she also did in the final at Eastbourne. And let's not forget winning Madrid, Paris, and beating a lot of the top players along the way.


Julia is consistent but obviously on clay and she had indeed a difficult time exporting that consistency elsewhere - if she does then perhaps in next RG she'll be lifting the trophy :lol: but there's a very long road to go though.

She has some difficulty adapting to the new surface, but after she does that, the surface becomes irrelevant. After all, she probably never played a set with only 5 UEs in her whole life :) I hope that after this season she'll do something about her mental problems so we can indeed see her lifting a trophy. I would still be satisfied with her winning many matches, like Petko, for a start :)

Skoo
Aug 20th, 2011, 04:37 PM
Discuss if you will - but I'll just highlight the AM% stat which is negative -4.81%. It is clear that Julia has a very very complicated time as soon as she has to work her opponent around, put her in complicated situations etc... with few UEs.

Otherwise in all the other shotmaking departments she's good, her aggressive margin is highly positive, her points won through aggression is remarkable 45.19 but in things related to pressuring the opponent efficiently (controlled aggression) well the numbers decline.

Thanks a lot for the stats :worship:

I will :) It is not clear, because the stat doesn't speak about the stupid errors, like the one in my last reply, and about the fact that she has perfect control until she starts looking lazy. When she'll be out of the rollercoaster, then we'll see what the AM% will be. I mean, I hope she will be out one day and not for one day :)


^ I can`t understand. Do you want to make a stats I and Skoo? For Julia opponent. This will be interesting, but we will be a ready after month, maybe. :lol:

No, he was just interpreting some stats. Fortunately, we don't have to compile anything :lol:

Vikapower
Aug 20th, 2011, 11:24 PM
Yeah, Julia was playing in Eastbourne and Stanford like Petra was playing in Toronto and Cincy :lol: Well, I guess she was playing about the same in Cincy, I didn't see her. So it's quite the same thing to both: no intermediate game, but, in her good days, Julia builds points more than Petra.

Well no one saw Petra in Toronto and Cincy and Petra had asthma in Cincy, wasn't 100%, even Andrea confirmed it which partially explains her performance...

If they are so flat and hard, they must be all or nothing.

Mmm, not specifically, the all or nothing strategies reflects in winners - when you have nothing to lose then you just swing freely and the out-come can be satisfying... if you want to see an all or nothing illustration watch Fogini vs. Montanes RG 2011 -

Fogini got hurt to his leg and he started swinging mindless winners like he didn't care and they were all going in, he won the match -- you can see in the video how Fogini barely moves and just swings disregarding if the balls would be in and out (it's just a sample, you might have to watch the whole match) here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42S88fch20A) another one that comes into mind is Serena Williams vs. Daniela Hantuchova Wimbledon 2007...

Basically if you watch Serena Williams when her back is behind the wall she usually plays all or nothing tennis, in AO 2005 vs. Kim Clijsters, in AO 2007 vs. Petrova etc...

True, but look at this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puXwbK2V67o#t=02m12s), which happens a lot. She did rally well, Zheng was pushed far outside the court, she created to opportunity to hit the winner, she was there and sent it out. I really doubt that kind of UE has any other explanation than a cognitive one (probably making the decision too late, or just mistiming). And, you know, she does a lot of them on clay too. And she had only 5 of them against Serena in the 2nd set. I think in her good days she can hit much less UEs than Petra.

Cool video, well in that sequence this was very good rallying from Julia but I think she simply mistimed the shot... the quality of her balls are good but this is exactly why Julia's AM% is negative in majors because she's not enough efficient at ending aggressive sequences with a winning play all the time and this BH DTL is a sample of that.

At 0:39 here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv5u5YvjOA0&feature=player_detailpage#t=39s) there's no way she should be missing that FH, huge lack of engagement forward and the point was well constructed but once again ended with an UE instead of a winning shot.

Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_ohVu7lFkk&feature=player_detailpage#t=19s) you can see an all or nothing FH, highlight winner on defense but in a the bigger picture, her second shot after the serve really lacks weight and engagement, Jie attacks and Julia is really on stretch to succeed her FH but nice shot.

On these kinds of shots right there (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_ohVu7lFkk&feature=player_detailpage#t=47s) you can see her momentum going the wrong direction (backwards) which is probably the reason she missed the shot - on that specific shot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_ohVu7lFkk&feature=player_detailpage#t=87s), she could have displayed much more patience and even if the winner was there to be stroke find the net clearance for such an angle.

On some rally balls you can see her shots sit up a bit even if she has the length and these were the times where Jie would step in and aggress her, as I really think her patience shots need much more weight into them and she needs to do that with her body... compared to 2010 she has progressed a lot - but he problem with lifting the ball so well is that the slightest lack of engagement, weight or length then you're in danger... watch Nadal in Cincinnati 2011.

Definitively Julia's next progression step on HCs is in the rallying department from my perspective - she needs to learn to have time to pose her game and don't get herself so wild sometimes gifting matches with many UEs - as the PDF stated

If Julia was abled to repeat these kind of sequences, controlled aggression (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MRqtYGjs8Dg#t=164s) more often off clay and regularly she's top 10 talent for sure. ;) - she's relaxed, patient and comfortable in the exchange as opposed to what we can often see on HCs.

---

BTW at 2:21 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=puXwbK2V67o#t=221s) what atrocious choice from Julia to go DTL on pass that was made to be CC... useless point lost there and Jie was serving for the match. :help:

---

On this video from Petra vs. the same opponent (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNeppLJ6pLM&feature=related) you can see a clear difference in rallying especially on the first exchange, everything is forward and into her shots - from that perspective right there (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNeppLJ6pLM&feature=player_detailpage#t=68s) you can see how uncomfortable Jie is on her baseline (Jie takes the ball very early but the relentless pressure of Petra's conventional shots are really posing her problems) - Now you can compare Petra's and Julia's rallying skills but there's really a clear clear advantage for Petra in that department, granted the Czech's is much more straightforward than Julia.

Skoo
Aug 21st, 2011, 01:03 PM
Well no one saw Petra in Toronto and Cincy and Petra had asthma in Cincy, wasn't 100%, even Andrea confirmed it which partially explains her performance...

How come no one saw her? She was on EuroSport (only in Toronto).

Mmm, not specifically, the all or nothing strategies reflects in winners - when you have nothing to lose then you just swing freely and the out-come can be satisfying... if you want to see an all or nothing illustration watch Fogini vs. Montanes RG 2011 -

Fogini got hurt to his leg and he started swinging mindless winners like he didn't care and they were all going in, he won the match -- you can see in the video how Fogini barely moves and just swings disregarding if the balls would be in and out (it's just a sample, you might have to watch the whole match) here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42S88fch20A) another one that comes into mind is Serena Williams vs. Daniela Hantuchova Wimbledon 2007...

I saw that match (:haha:) and I understand what you mean. But Petra produces many winners and that most of her opp's FEs come when they are streched, trying to hit back what should have been a winner. Well, I guess that could be called intermediate, since the shots have the right amount of speed to be also precise. But it is amazing to think you can be the hardest hitter and also have an intermediate game :)


Cool video, well in that sequence this was very good rallying from Julia but I think she simply mistimed the shot... the quality of her balls are good but this is exactly why Julia's AM% is negative in majors because she's not enough efficient at ending aggressive sequences with a winning play all the time and this BH DTL is a sample of that.

BTW at 2:21 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=puXwbK2V67o#t=221s) what atrocious choice from Julia to go DTL on pass that was made to be CC... useless point lost there and Jie was serving for the match. :help:

Yes, so true.

The commentator at Wimby said after a shot exactly like that that you have to question her shot selection and it's probably a shadow of the time when she was simply wacking it. But she did open up the court to hit a BH DTL, so it wasn't really the worst decision. And, who knows, maybe the UE was caused because of that law (speed inversely related to horizontal angle). Because Jie was serving for the match, Julia had to be very careful not to send the ball past the baseline, which made her hit with somewhat less power. IDK, just speculating :shrug:

But the other one, yes, definitely the worst decision.

At 0:39 here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv5u5YvjOA0&feature=player_detailpage#t=39s) there's no way she should be missing that FH, huge lack of engagement forward and the point was well constructed but once again ended with an UE instead of a winning shot.

I actually wanted to show you this FH in the last post, because I remembered it, but I found that BH DTL first :lol:

Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_ohVu7lFkk&feature=player_detailpage#t=19s) you can see an all or nothing FH, highlight winner on defense but in a the bigger picture, her second shot after the serve really lacks weight and engagement, Jie attacks and Julia is really on stretch to succeed her FH but nice shot.

She made quite a few of those lately. Spectacular as they are, I think everybody would like her to see getting more of the easy ones in :)

On some rally balls you can see her shots sit up a bit even if she has the length and these were the times where Jie would step in and aggress her, as I really think her patience shots need much more weight into them and she needs to do that with her body... compared to 2010 she has progressed a lot - but he problem with lifting the ball so well is that the slightest lack of engagement, weight or length then you're in danger... watch Nadal in Cincinnati 2011.

Definitively Julia's next progression step on HCs is in the rallying department from my perspective - she needs to learn to have time to pose her game and don't get herself so wild sometimes gifting matches with many UEs - as the PDF stated

Exactly, but it comes down to your mental and emotional state in the end. Nadal's ideal cognitive skills have become shaky after those losses and that is probably where the lack of engagement comes from. On a "good day" Julia would put more pressure than that on her opponent. Against Jie was another one of the lazy performances. I suppose we would see a different attitude in the second set if we had a recording.

Yes, she needs to do just that, but the sad thing is that she actually did it in the matches against JJ and Serena. Well, she had a lot of UEs against JJ, but not when it mattered, but that number of 5 in the 2nd set against Serena (of which 2-3 came in the TB) is just amazing, especially for Julia's standards.

If Julia was abled to repeat these kind of sequences, controlled aggression (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MRqtYGjs8Dg#t=164s) more often off clay and regularly she's top 10 talent for sure. ;) - she's relaxed, patient and comfortable in the exchange as opposed to what we can often see on HCs.

She can do it on any surface, and she definitely had some bad performances on clay (of course, I'm talking about Acapulco, Bogota and Monterrey) after her best performances on HC at the end of the last season and the beggining of this season. This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26V8WigfI9k#t=04m07s) a quite similar point, but Sabine is more passive than Serena. And how much harder was that BH DTL to make comparatively to the one against Jie.

Vikapower
Aug 21st, 2011, 02:49 PM
How come no one saw her? She was on EuroSport (only in Toronto).

IDK To be honest I don't think she was or perhaps she was then in that case no one knew. :lol:

I saw that match (:haha:) and I understand what you mean. But Petra produces many winners and that most of her opp's FEs come when they are streched, trying to hit back what should have been a winner. Well, I guess that could be called intermediate, since the shots have the right amount of speed to be also precise. But it is amazing to think you can be the hardest hitter and also have an intermediate game :)

Generally that's what happens with Petra, I wouldn't say most of her shots a destined to be a winner but definitively her conventional shots are very difficult to deal with because she puts so much impact that many of the girls can't really deal with it and that's where the FEs come from - Petra could still beat anybody 6-1 6-0 just by forcing errors from her opponents, Julia she hits a high number of winners but as seen in the match against Cibulkova can still lose because winners unfortunately doesn't make all the story about a match.


Yes, so true.

The commentator at Wimby said after a shot exactly like that that you have to question her shot selection and it's probably a shadow of the time when she was simply wacking it. But she did open up the court to hit a BH DTL, so it wasn't really the worst decision. And, who knows, maybe the UE was caused because of that law (speed inversely related to horizontal angle). Because Jie was serving for the match, Julia had to be very careful not to send the ball past the baseline, which made her hit with somewhat less power. IDK, just speculating :shrug:

But the other one, yes, definitely the worst decision.

Well indeed, Julia could have decelerated on that BH to secure the DTL or simply not put enough racquet head speed since the racket face couldn't have reached in time to take the slight outside of the ball to make the DTL... I watched her again, her set up is good, she's well stable - it's very hard to see the racket face from that distance but I think she just mistimed the shot perhaps because she was down and out mentally... Right there (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMRy0kTICFE&feature=player_detailpage#t=399s) is the similar BH Julia was attempting vs. Jie, she really gets to the slight outside of the ball there to aim it back DTL - from the same match some DTL BH, stability, engagement forward (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMRy0kTICFE&feature=player_detailpage#t=445s), good RHs etc...

One of other explanations could be Julia's huge take-back (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26V8WigfI9k&feature=player_detailpage#t=27s), it's always surprising to me that Julia needs such a big take back to swing even at shots like these. :lol:

She made quite a few of those lately. Spectacular as they are, I think everybody would like her to see getting more of the easy ones in :)

:lol: Can't be said any better :worship: I would prefer Julia miss 7 out of 10 of these highlight winners but succeed 7 out of 10 of the easy put away or bread and butter FH than the inverse that's for sure. :lol:

Exactly, but it comes down to your mental and emotional state in the end. Nadal's ideal cognitive skills have become shaky after those losses and that is probably where the lack of engagement comes from. On a "good day" Julia would put more pressure than that on her opponent. Against Jie was another one of the lazy performances. I suppose we would see a different attitude in the second set if we had a recording.

Yes, this is the third set and I would love a comparison between her attitude in the third and in the second, that would be instructive.

Nadal's lack of engagement comes not only from the defeats as you stated but can also come from mental fatigue, lack of hunger etc... he's last season was exceptional and he's been competing top 5 since 2005 or 6 I think so he must be paying for it IDK.

Yes, she needs to do just that, but the sad thing is that she actually did it in the matches against JJ and Serena. Well, she had a lot of UEs against JJ, but not when it mattered, but that number of 5 in the 2nd set against Serena (of which 2-3 came in the TB) is just amazing, especially for Julia's standards.

Engagement is discipline and to be consistent you need to be disciplined not only in your mind but also in your technique - Julia is disciplined in head I'm sure but tennis wise or technically speaking, she's not... there are too much fluctuations from one shot to another could it be in terms of balance, engagement, footwork etc... and this is the discipline you find into Petra's game.

Very rarely you'll see Petra hit awkward FHs or BHs most of her UEs comes from juice and sometimes she puts too much juice on her shots but in general her technique is sound and very stable and from that stability consistency becomes much more easier to find once you're straight in your head. Julia, she, battles with a lot of incoherences at times in her swings or attitude when she goes to hit the ball, it's not easy to cope with because in her head she wants it badly but as you said her senses have her act so differently and it takes a lot of work, education or re-education from her coach to reach at that stage of ataraxia and I really hope she does because she has a great game.

She can do it on any surface, and she definitely had some bad performances on clay (of course, I'm talking about Acapulco, Bogota and Monterrey) after her best performances on HC at the end of the last season and the beggining of this season. This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26V8WigfI9k#t=04m07s) a quite similar point, but Sabine is more passive than Serena. And how much harder was that BH DTL to make comparatively to the one against Jie.

:lol: Good remark, Sabine gives you more time - on that BH pass, I think that BH is quite easier because there is a target which was not the case with that DTL BH vs. Jie [...]

I referenced some other rallying exchanges from Julia and she really seems to relaxed in the rallies, it's night and day with what she has been showing us on HCs - A beautiful sequence an FH winner (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHUz7yhQP4Q&feature=player_detailpage#t=11s), a beautiful exchange again with nice engagement into her shots (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHUz7yhQP4Q&feature=player_detailpage#t=102s) - against Safina a much flatter hitter than Caro (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMRy0kTICFE&feature=player_detailpage#t=5s), again awesome rally (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMRy0kTICFE&feature=player_detailpage#t=91s) watch the impact of her shots, her engagement etc... really has nothing to do with the videos vs. Jie. :lol: Another one where she's on defense - loses the point (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMRy0kTICFE&feature=player_detailpage#t=121s) she doesn't seem to be late or in complication she even had a shot great pass ended by a great volley by Dinara.

I know these are high-lights but just watching her attitudes on clay when striking the ball in comparison to HCs is really really instructive.

joy division
Aug 21st, 2011, 03:16 PM
I think, we have enough stuff together here, at least for a degree dissertation.:lol:

Skoo
Aug 21st, 2011, 05:21 PM
IDK To be honest I don't think she was or perhaps she was then in that case no one knew. :lol:

I saw the match and I knew :lol: You people are weird. You didn't see Julia's matches at Wimby either :confused:

Anyway, Petra was hitting one UE after another. If you saw Federer vs. Berdych, she was spraying about as much as Roger.


Generally that's what happens with Petra, I wouldn't say most of her shots a destined to be a winner but definitively her conventional shots are very difficult to deal with because she puts so much impact that many of the girls can't really deal with it and that's where the FEs come from - Petra could still beat anybody 6-1 6-0 just by forcing errors from her opponents, Julia she hits a high number of winners but as seen in the match against Cibulkova can still lose because winners unfortunately doesn't make all the story about a match.

Yes, but we must also consider the fact that Petra doesn't suddenly collapse. Well, not most of the time. She does that on occasions. If the performance from the 2nd set lasted only for about two more service games in the second, the match would have been Julia's.


Well indeed, Julia could have decelerated on that BH to secure the DTL or simply not put enough racquet head speed since the racket face couldn't have reached in time to take the slight outside of the ball to make the DTL... I watched her again, her set up is good, she's well stable - it's very hard to see the racket face from that distance but I think she just mistimed the shot perhaps because she was down and out mentally... Right there (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMRy0kTICFE&feature=player_detailpage#t=399s) is the similar BH Julia was attempting vs. Jie, she really gets to the slight outside of the ball there to aim it back DTL - from the same match some DTL BH, stability, engagement forward (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMRy0kTICFE&feature=player_detailpage#t=445s), good RHs etc...

Yes, probably "down and out mentally", which might translate into "how do I hit, how do I hit?" :lol: Hmm... yes, there are some nice shots in that match vs Safina. I had a bad mental representation of it, as you know :) And, yes, the take-back surely has to do with it, but she corrects that when she is able to plan the shot much earlier. She has probably grew up with that swing and there's nothing to do about it, but, as she shows in her good days, that doesn't have to be a problem.


:lol: Can't be said any better :worship: I would prefer Julia miss 7 out of 10 of these highlight winners but succeed 7 out of 10 of the easy put away or bread and butter FH than the inverse that's for sure. :lol:

Furthermore, she could hit as many UEs as she wants, as long as she wins the match (and this is where this discussion started) :lol: Of what use is that she hit only 5 UEs in that set if they came exactly in the right moment for her to lose? :)


Very rarely you'll see Petra hit awkward FHs or BHs most of her UEs comes from juice and sometimes she puts too much juice on her shots but in general her technique is sound and very stable and from that stability consistency becomes much more easier to find once you're straight in your head. Julia, she, battles with a lot of incoherences at times in her swings or attitude when she goes to hit the ball, it's not easy to cope with because in her head she wants it badly but as you said her senses have her act so differently and it takes a lot of work, education or re-education from her coach to reach at that stage of ataraxia and I really hope she does because she has a great game.

So you're saying that Petra's UEs are caused because she hits too hard (juice), but rarely from mistiming, and because of that she can find confidence more easily than Julia, right? That sounds pretty coherent :)

But why would she then find more confidence against big names? I think we should alsp consider the possibility that she's not very fit yet. Of course, there is a lot of progress there, but maybe it will take a while. Maybe she simply doesn't have the strenght to have the same intensity for a longer time. When she's against big names, she gives all that she has, because that would be a chance to prove she's worthy, and she also gives it all after losing the first set because... well, she's losing :)



:lol: Good remark, Sabine gives you more time - on that BH pass, I think that BH is quite easier because there is a target which was not the case with that DTL BH vs. Jie [...]

I know these are high-lights but just watching her attitudes on clay when striking the ball in comparison to HCs is really really instructive.

Not only she was giving more time, but that attempt to change the direction was a joke compared to Serena's (of course, Serena is a master at that). What is a target? She was trying to hit Serena? :lol:

She probably looks better on clay, but look at this game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLk_1MAG7uU#t=10m46s) (or indeed about any other one). This is the kind of situation where she would start missing vs Cibulkova or Zheng.

:topic: And look how sweet she is here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLk_1MAG7uU#t=05m01s) :hearts: :)

Skoo
Aug 21st, 2011, 05:23 PM
I think, we have enough stuff together here, at least for a degree dissertation.:lol:

Yeah, after that we should be working on our PhD in Juliology :lol:

Banditoo
Aug 21st, 2011, 06:00 PM
Under 'Julia Görges' Maybe must whote For fans of Juliology. :lol:

Vikapower
Aug 21st, 2011, 06:29 PM
I saw the match and I knew :lol: You people are weird. You didn't see Julia's matches at Wimby either :confused:

Anyway, Petra was hitting one UE after another. If you saw Federer vs. Berdych, she was spraying about as much as Roger.

Ok, well you're lucky then... :lol: but I can only imagine.

Yes, but we must also consider the fact that Petra doesn't suddenly collapse. Well, not most of the time. She does that on occasions. If the performance from the 2nd set lasted only for about two more service games in the second, the match would have been Julia's.

:lol: Well, it doesn't last that long - It does happen that Petra collapses (watch her matches vs. Vika or Pironkova in Wimbledon) but on the difference to Julia from her RG match to Bartoli for example she has that ability to recuperate herself... so finally her mental let downs doesn't have a 'huge impact'.

And, yes, the take-back surely has to do with it, but she corrects that when she is able to plan the shot much earlier. She has probably grew up with that swing and there's nothing to do about it, but, as she shows in her good days, that doesn't have to be a problem.

Well shortening her FH swing is not the most complicated thing, she could have that done in a month or 2 of intense practice. It's not going to change the mechanic self of the FH... but does she want to IDK.

Furthermore, she could hit as many UEs as she wants, as long as she wins the match (and this is where this discussion started) :lol: Of what use is that she hit only 5 UEs in that set if they came exactly in the right moment for her to lose? :)

Yes but unfortunately that's just one match, you can't win strings of matches that manner, it's impossible on the very long run - Julia doesn't want to win only one match, she wants to win 4, 5 or 6 eventually 7 respectively for the QF/SF, F, or W.

So you're saying that Petra's UEs are caused because she hits too hard (juice), but rarely from mistiming, and because of that she can find confidence more easily than Julia, right? That sounds pretty coherent :)

Not all, most... mistiming sometimes happens any to all pro players but technically she's sound... most of Julia's UEs are caused by bad footwork, wrong body positioning, lack of balance, lack of engagement etc... which inevitably results into slight lack of control of the ball and UEs more so than ever for the type of aggressive game style she plays.

But why would she then find more confidence against big names? I think we should alsp consider the possibility that she's not very fit yet. Of course, there is a lot of progress there, but maybe it will take a while. Maybe she simply doesn't have the strenght to have the same intensity for a longer time. When she's against big names, she gives all that she has, because that would be a chance to prove she's worthy, and she also gives it all after losing the first set because... well, she's losing :)

:lol: That's kind of normal... girls give their best to the best of their respective game, it's a source of motivation - a moment to prove yourself to the elites of the game but it's also a reveler to show how far/close you are in terms of level to them.

What is a target? She was trying to hit Serena? :lol:

The target is a spot on the court... targeting is getting to a specific spot on the court.

She probably looks better on clay, but look at this game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLk_1MAG7uU#t=10m46s) (or indeed about any other one). This is the kind of situation where she would start missing vs Cibulkova or Zheng.

Well the zone is different and safer... it's much more easier to get CC than to go DTL and Julia isn't the specialist in changing directions, just pay attention to all the DTL FHs she misses, I think we've talked about that already.

On the BH, it should be easier for her to go DTL because she's able to find much more stability on that side contrary to her FH... IMO on the FH she'll miss 8 of 10 DTL (including the easy ones) and 3 or 4 of 10 on the BH side.

Skoo
Aug 21st, 2011, 07:10 PM
:lol: Well, it doesn't last that long - It does happen that Petra collapses (watch her matches vs. Vika or Pironkova in Wimbledon) but on the difference to Julia from her RG match to Bartoli for example she has that ability to recuperate herself... so finally her mental let downs doesn't have a 'huge impact'.

But also watch Petra's matches against Bartoli in the final at Eastbourne and the loss at RG. And Julia came back at RG from 1-5 to 4-5. It was just a little bit too late. And I don't think I saw Petra's matches at IW and Miami, but the scoreline seems pretty similar to those of Julia when she collapses. I would say it can have the same impact, but it happens a lot more to Julia.


Not all, most... mistiming sometimes happens any to all pro players but technically she's sound... most of Julia's UEs are caused by bad footwork, wrong body positioning, lack of balance, lack of engagement etc... which inevitably results into slight lack of control of the ball and UEs more so than ever for the type of aggressive game style she plays.

Hmm, I think you can rarely see the problems with the footwork, body positioning and lack of balance anymore. Now she kinda misses more when she's in the perfect position and gets more balls in from difficult positions (we agreed before that it would be better to get more easy balls in).


The target is a spot on the court... targeting is getting to a specific spot on the court.

So the missed BH DTL against Jie didn't have a target while the BH passing shot against Serena did? :confused:


Well the zone is different and safer... it's much more easier to get CC than to go DTL and Julia isn't the specialist in changing directions, just pay attention to all the DTL FHs she misses, I think we've talked about that already.

On the BH, it should be easier for her to go DTL because she's able to find much more stability on that side contrary to her FH... IMO on the FH she'll miss 8 of 10 DTL (including the easy ones) and 3 or 4 of 10 on the BH side.

Yes, we did, but I was digressing a bit from talking about only that specific shot compared to BHs DTL. I was talking about the whole game. In that kind of situation against Makiri she would hit wide, as she actually did. And she would make some DFs, hit some easy FHs into the net, etc. She was pretty much as convincing as she was on clay. I agree about the FH DTL.

Banditoo
Aug 22nd, 2011, 07:08 PM
I can't understand way you people do this. :lol:
I think everything is hide in constant game. Like a every aggressive player in WTA Julia can't to be on a top form every match. I cant understand this, too. Maybe because hers style 'everything or nothing' or maybe because in WTA haven't absolutely technically completed tennis players since WS play a tennis. Maybe only Venus, Serena and Kim are absolutely technically completed tennis player, now... Everyone are try to hit the boll with maximum power because this is more easily than smart game. But this style not always lead to success. This is another big problem in WTA.... :tape:
Just if WTA player didn't have this problem and Julia wouldn't have this problem. If Julia was a constant player she would have a good balance, movement, FH DTL, very good BH and many good other thing like a in Stuttgart. She have a play for mazing tennis winner, but like a many other player she haven't constant in her game. And again another mental problem...

Can yo understand me? My English..... :sad:

Vikapower
Aug 22nd, 2011, 09:34 PM
Hmm, I think you can rarely see the problems with the footwork, body positioning and lack of balance anymore. Now she kinda misses more when she's in the perfect position and gets more balls in from difficult positions (we agreed before that it would be better to get more easy balls in).

Well just in the simple videos against Jie you can see just all what you enumerated. :lol: Without extending it too much, in that particular FH (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv5u5YvjOA0&feature=player_detailpage#t=39s) the reason she misses principally is her lack of engagement forward and I have the impression she rushes the shot a bit, in this same video you can see she places herself way to early (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv5u5YvjOA0&feature=player_detailpage#t=89s) and is far from the ball, very approximative footwork - in the shot before this on here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv5u5YvjOA0&feature=player_detailpage#t=85s), I know Jie's shot is long but she could have taken a supplementary step to come in closed stance, she doesn't do so, that's the reason she can't take a good cut at the ball - finds herself constrained to embark backwards with her BH which results into a puffy high ball.

Technically in open stance, she should have blocked back to re-engage into ball if she was more reactive - lack of reactivity or foot speed I don't specifically know - but these are genuine shots like these where she should be able to get her body behind the ball effectively for a full swing since they're not even that quick.

You can see the difference between a well executed FH (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHUz7yhQP4Q&feature=player_detailpage#t=26s) by Julia approximatively of the same sort and this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv5u5YvjOA0&feature=player_detailpage#t=39s)- she's clearly not behaving the same way - here's another one of these FH (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PijmGhszWU&feature=player_detailpage#t=78s) she misses compare with the first video.

As for her footwork I can only invite to watch the match vs. Safina in Madrid to see how greatly effective she was...

---

The shots she misses when she's in perfect position can be due to a lot of things including mental, perhaps relaxing before she hits the shot - it can also be due to lack of caution, too close to the lines or maybe just too much power, it could be technical like decelerating before impact to be cautious on the shot ; sometimes it can simply be due to the opponent who anticipates the right place, Julia sees it in the corner of her eye and misses etc...

So the missed BH DTL against Jie didn't have a target while the BH passing shot against Serena did? :confused:

For certain players, when a player comes at the net, it's much more easier to focus mentally to get the ball where they want it to into the opponent's court than for example in an open court - I don't specifically know how to explain that any better but there are many articles on the web about the subject if you google for example tennis/target, target/passing shots etc... ;)

Skoo
Aug 22nd, 2011, 10:28 PM
Yes, of course the positioning problems are still there sometimes (who's the player that doesn't have them?). Maybe "rarely" was not the appropriate word. Neither was "more" (I thought that the missed BH DTL against Jie is representative, but it's probably not). The idea was that she had more UEs on clay than here. I don't know about the match against Zheng, but at Wimby and Toronto there were less, so the positioning problems must occur less often now, and when she's "on" they have the low frequency of a top player :)

joy division
Sep 7th, 2011, 09:45 PM
There are a lot of observations and thoughts about Julia and her game from many different posters, since she appeared on this forum in 2006.
Everybody has got his own point of view, and therefore the discussion about the outcome of her matches and the reasons therefore is partially controversy.
But there are some things, whereat most of the posters agree.
She has a good serve, and it can very dangerous on every surface when her game is on.
Without any doubt the forehand is her favored and best stroke.
All posters go along with the fact of the inconsistency in her game. She obviously has some lacks to be in control of her game.
Her long-winded motions in the ground-strokes can be very disadvantageous, and she should upgrade her backhand and ROS.
So, let`s be ridiculous now, and imagine you where her coach.
No matter, you are a complete layman or a pro, on what, and how would you work with her ?
Any meanings or ideas ?

Skoo
Sep 7th, 2011, 09:55 PM
So, let`s be ridiculous now, and imagine you where her coach.
No matter, you are a complete layman or a pro, on what, and how would you work with her ?
Any meanings or ideas ?

I would get her proof of the advantages a good relationship can have on performance and I would offer to provide that :lol: Other than that, fitness, best nutrition and a slice serve, since I read it is less demanding on the lower back. But I would really have to hire someone else for technical issues :)

joy division
Sep 7th, 2011, 10:24 PM
I would get her proof of the advantages a good relationship can have on performance and I would offer to provide that :lol: Other than that, fitness, best nutrition and a slice serve, since I read it is less demanding on the lower back. But I would really have to hire someone else for technical issues :)

I knew, it was as safe as the bank of England, if you should respond on my question, what your first point here is. And you didn`t disappoint me in your waggish way of humour.:lol:

Skoo
Sep 8th, 2011, 08:04 AM
I knew, it was as safe as the bank of England, if you should respond on my question, what your first point here is. And you didn`t disappoint me in your waggish way of humour.:lol:

Are you saying you predicted I was going to say that? :) Anyway, if you like it, I will allow you to teach her how to drive her Porsche. But I'm keeping an eye on you :lol:

joy division
Sep 8th, 2011, 11:05 AM
Are you saying you predicted I was going to say that? :) Anyway, if you like it, I will allow you to teach her how to drive her Porsche. But I'm keeping an eye on you :lol:

Thanks for the invitation !
I`ll obediently follow your advices, as long as I´m not behind the steering wheel.:lol:
Afterwards you might no more be able to keep your eye on the action anyway.:devil:
So better stay on the back seat.

Tennis Observer
Sep 21st, 2011, 08:51 PM
Julia - who took the crown for Germanys # 1 Doubles player from former Mixed Doubles Grand Slam Winner Anna Lena Grönefeld on 7/05/10 (after advancing to QF in Wimbledon 2010 w/Agnes Szavay) – will pass it to Sabine Lisicki on 9/26/11.

Vikapower
Sep 21st, 2011, 11:12 PM
There are a lot of observations and thoughts about Julia and her game from many different posters, since she appeared on this forum in 2006.
Everybody has got his own point of view, and therefore the discussion about the outcome of her matches and the reasons therefore is partially controversy.
But there are some things, whereat most of the posters agree.
She has a good serve, and it can very dangerous on every surface when her game is on.
Without any doubt the forehand is her favored and best stroke.
All posters go along with the fact of the inconsistency in her game. She obviously has some lacks to be in control of her game.
Her long-winded motions in the ground-strokes can be very disadvantageous, and she should upgrade her backhand and ROS.

Late answer to a very good post, well sorry... :lol: well you know in technique and tennis, it's impossible I think for everyone to have the same interpretation.

There are general and logical concepts that everyone agrees on to produce strokes, use you legs, your bigger muscle groups etc... to produce power for example, move forward, weight transfer etc... and many others but as for how to interpret them in a swing then I think it's free to everyone's imagination.

The same goes for after watching a match, everyone perceived it in a different though, there's the epistemological data in the greek sense of the term επιστήμη épistémê - knowledge, science to put everyone right but sensations even from these are reinterpreted according to everyone's personal knowledges, feelings, sensations etc...

In all this, I would say, all of us a wrong, all of us a right... :lol: I would not be bold to say we have the full truth but we've touched a good bit of it... :lol:

So, let`s be ridiculous now, and imagine you where her coach.
No matter, you are a complete layman or a pro, on what, and how would you work with her ?
Any meanings or ideas ?

:lol: Good question, from a far distance if I was Julia's coach and with my magic stick the things I'd work with her would be her footwork definitively (crossovers, sprint etc...) I would most probably specifically work her foot speed - I think it would definitively make her FH even much more of a consistent and even more brilliant shot...

I would also perfection with that new found footwork, the running FH (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk_eISbp-OY&feature=player_detailpage#t=48s), I would try to make Julia excellent on the dead run for that I would try to ameliorate as much as I can her balance because this really one the things that un-allows her to be efficient from extreme positions...

I would also encourage her game in half volley, she really so good at the taking ball in half volleys and use the pace to even make the shots go faster than how they initially came :eek: especially of the BH side. :worship:

Johnbert
Sep 22nd, 2011, 06:55 AM
So, let`s be ridiculous now, and imagine you where her coach.
No matter, you are a complete layman or a pro, on what, and how would you work with her ?
Any meanings or ideas ?

oh, i've got a lot of ideas how to "work" with julia if i were her "trainer" :devil: :oh:

LightsOut!
Sep 22nd, 2011, 07:01 AM
Julia :bounce:

Skoo
Oct 12th, 2011, 10:47 PM
The clay season ended when, Juin ? Anyways it doesn't change much things the period of time between clay and today is just too short to become the next #1, that's ridiculous thinking.

Yes, in June, but there was also Bad Gastein. So, after RG, six tournaments with just one win, a heartbreaking loss to Cibulkova, a bagel from Cornet, another heartbreaking loss to Baltacha, the usual 3R at USO and a couple of 3rd rounds. And now this awful performances in Linz, where she played so well last year. Nobody expected her to become number 1, but not being able to win at least three matches since Madrid? And before that, she only did it three times, in Stuttgart with the big help from Azarenka. This was an awful season, with a lot of missed opportunities.

In 2009 AO against Julia, Ana played very bad... ;) With her improvements she would have won the match and that's the difference and slight improvement with Julia today.

I suppose you saw the match, but you really should not be so sure :) With her improvements she lost to a lot of players that probably played worse than Ana.

As for the spraying balls etc... as I said it doesn't come that easy, it's just so, Petra Kvitova went through the same scenarios when in 2008-2009 she wasn't able to keep balls into play for more than 2 shots...

Well, Petra did something, maybe getting a BF :lol: Anyway, she had her horrible losses too and she's not looking so good at the moment. There will probably always be a huge difference between girls like them and girls like the WS, Sharapova, Clisters.

And it's not like she's not able to rally. It's the points like that smash Michael was praising or those missed dropshots in the end and countless other easy balls and DFs that caused her to lose a lot of matches. Why would you hit a marvellous volley and miss 10 routine shots after that?

As I said my only deception is in the composure and I had sincerely thought Julia had taken a positive step in that department.

That was my point too. Everything else is insignificant since it doesn't make her win. I was also hoping, especially because she showed she can have it in Stuttgart. But she pretty much lost it even in Madrid. I share your hope, but the reality is that anything can happen. She can become no 1 or she can become no 200. But hey, there are a lot of other seasons ahead :)

Vikapower
Oct 12th, 2011, 11:18 PM
Yes, in June, but there was also Bad Gastein. So, after RG, six tournaments with just one win, a heartbreaking loss to Cibulkova, a bagel from Cornet, another heartbreaking loss to Baltacha, the usual 3R at USO and a couple of 3rd rounds. And now this awful performances in Linz, where she played so well last year. Nobody expected her to become number 1, but not being able to win at least three matches since Madrid? And before that, she only did it three times, in Stuttgart with the big help from Azarenka. This was an awful season, with a lot of missed opportunities.

All these are just details as I told you -- and calling Julia's season awful is really over the par :cool: all time people don't understand yet that she's not fully embodied the role of a top player yet then after each and every sporadic awful losses it'll be like that. :lol:

No honestly, Julia has had a brilliant season and it can only better now that she has tasted what it is to be a top player...

I suppose you saw the match, but you really should not be so sure :) With her improvements she lost to a lot of players that probably played worse than Ana.

:shrug: You see, details again - how many more losses than wins for Julia this year ? Obviously improvements can not prevent even the most deceitful losses it's just so it goes...

Julia has won more than she has lost and when she has won it was very well deserved, when she has lost, then it just a showing of where she needs to improve that's just all...

It's irrational to believe that she has grown in everything just yet, it's step by step. ;)

Well, Petra did something, maybe getting a BF :lol: Anyway, she had her horrible losses too and she's not looking so good at the moment. There will probably always be a huge difference between girls like them and girls like the WS, Sharapova, Clisters.

And it's not like she's not able to rally. It's the points like that smash Michael was praising or those missed dropshots in the end and countless other easy balls and DFs that caused her to lose a lot of matches. Why would you hit a marvellous volley and miss 10 routine shots after that?

Don't mistake yourself Skoo, even the great Maria Sharapova has gone through these phases - and that is what made her become so mentally strong because she has learnt to overcome these negative things that sometimes can come off her game... from that standpoint now she created a difference between her and the other ladies as far as it goes in the mental department... but Maria has had her share of horrible losses too (e.g. Pékin 2010, AO 2010...) etc... :facepalm:

Then as for why missing 10 shots for a brilliant volley, the answer is just as simple as it can be, lack of implication physical, mental etc... and that can be said for ALL the girls who are not in the 10, that's why there are not in the top 10 because if they had these then a vast majority of the more talented ones including Julia would be #1's. :)

That was my point too. Everything else is insignificant since it doesn't make her win. I was also hoping, especially because she showed she can have it in Stuttgart. But she pretty much lost it even in Madrid. I share your hope, but the reality is that anything can happen. She can become no 1 or she can become no 200. But hey, there are a lot of other seasons ahead :)

:lol: Anything can not happen and Julia can not be top 200 unless with injury or something, despite all the focus made on her losses, Julia is an excellent player who's just happening to know how to make efficient love with her game...

Which boy can claim that their first experience with a girl was mind-blowing ? None, well it's the same with Julia, she can't claim her first experiences at the top was extraordinarily brilliant but it's good enough to have a solid base for the future. :wavey:

Vikapower
Oct 12th, 2011, 11:22 PM
Well, absolutely speechless about her performance against Rodionova, like many here too.
Julia is completely out of sorts, Maybe she also is tired and exhausted at the end of the season. Anyway, hard to see, how she is wasting her talent right now.
If this performance does not leave any traces, or opens her eyes towards her attitudes on court, I don know, what has to happen therefore.

The season has been indeed long and it's her first complete season as a top 20 player, now she knows. :lol:

Let`s have a look at the near future. Don`t want to paint black, but continuing like that, she will fall down the rankings very rapidly, and then she actually could find herself in the first real "crisis" of her career.
And then she has to go a similar way like, for instants, Angelique Kerber, who was seriously asking herself in summer this year, whether she will play tennis any longer or not. In consequence of this fundamental questions, Angelique changed some deciding things. And right now she is on her best ever ranking since she`s playing tennis.
Not unusual in women tennis and in sports in general.
How do you judge her situation ? What are your ideas about her further way from now ? What about her coach ? Is Julia able to handle a crisis ? Is she somehow just too silly for this job ? Too many different questions for too many reasons. But anyway, meanings ?

:lol: Come on, Julia's situation is perfect, she'll just be ending in the top 20 - :eek: is that depressing ? Certainly not but she'll have a lot of work in the off season that's for sure starting by her mental game.

Maybe she'll need to have to change coach to help her progress in the departments she hasn't, I don't know - 2012 can be a crucial turn in her career, I mean every player has gone through that... she's been with Nelsen for a very long time now, so perhaps she might need some new discourse, new perspective etc...

It's hard to tell when we're not the ones discussing with her feelings etc... but the off-season can reserve a lot of important surprises or not.

Skoo
Oct 13th, 2011, 12:18 AM
No honestly, Julia has had a brilliant season and it can only better now that she has tasted what it is to be a top player...

:shrug: You see, details again - how many more losses than wins for Julia this year ? Obviously improvements can not prevent even the most deceitful losses it's just so it goes...

Julia has won more than she has lost and when she has won it was very well deserved, when she has lost, then it just a showing of where she needs to improve that's just all...

I don't think those are details. I think that's what matters. About a month of good play doesn't make a season brilliant, especially when the rest is not mediocre, but plainly bad.

And the detail would be the wins vs. losses. What it matters is that she has lost a lot of times to players that are really way below her potential. But anyway, she has 35 wins and 24 losses. Although there are more wins, it doesn't seem such a good stat to me. Assuming Vika had been in good shape, you take away four wins (plus her biggest title, the sole reason people started to think she can actually be great) and add one defeat and you end up with 31 wins and 25 losses. Furthermore, the win against Safarova was not thoroughly deserved.

Last season she had 36-26. Where is the great season? It doesn't really matter that she participated in bigger events, because she was not really there in most of them.

Cîrstea, who is not significant this season has 32-22. Really not a big difference. OTOH, Petko has 54-17. Well, that is a player that really made a breakthrough this season. But again, these numbers don't really matter. If this would have been a brilliant season, she would have won more, especially against players she should beat. Even humiliate :)

What the losses show is indeed what needs to be improved and she didn't do that this year. She is the same inconsistent player she was her whole career :shrug:


It's irrational to believe that she has grown in everything just yet, it's step by step. ;)

Sure, but the growth in consistency is minimal to none. Better skills will definitely help her in the future, but there is only composure that she needs. Make her slower, take away the efficiency of her first serve and you still have the same results.


Don't mistake yourself Skoo, even the great Maria Sharapova has gone through these phases - and that is what made her become so mentally strong because she has learnt to overcome these negative things that sometimes can come off her game... from that standpoint now she created a difference between her and the other ladies as far as it goes in the mental department... but Maria has had her share of horrible losses too (e.g. Pékin 2010, AO 2010...) etc... :facepalm:

Details! :lol: At this point, it is hard to believe she will have 24 titles (not to mention three majors). And she is only seven months younger than Sharapova! May a miracle happen! :help:


Then as for why missing 10 shots for a brilliant volley, the answer is just as simple as it can be, lack of implication physical, mental etc... and that can be said for ALL the girls who are not in the 10, that's why there are not in the top 10 because if they had these then a vast majority of the more talented ones including Julia would be #1's. :)

True, but there are not really many that have her potential. The worst part is that she led us to believe that she has become consistent, she even said that, and... well, it hurts :)


:lol: Anything can not happen and Julia can not be top 200 unless with injury or something, despite all the focus made on her losses, Julia is an excellent player who's just happening to know how to make efficient love with her game...

Which boy can claim that their first experience with a girl was mind-blowing ? None, well it's the same with Julia, she can't claim her first experiences at the top was extraordinarily brilliant but it's good enough to have a solid base for the future. :wavey:

I don't quite understand what you mean about love making with your game :lol: Anyway, you are probably right with her experiences at the top. Hopefully, you really are :)

Vikapower
Oct 13th, 2011, 01:21 AM
I don't think those are details. I think that's what matters. About a month of good play doesn't make a season brilliant, especially when the rest is not mediocre, but plainly bad.

:lol: Well once again you're only watching the negative sides :shrug: the month of good play was on her best surface, no ? Had Julia been in the past a strong HC player ? :D The answer is obviously no - the problem is, 60-70% of the season is made of HCs and that's certainly where Julia needs to improve herself...

Once again I'm not letting Julia's weaknesses taint anything of what she has done well on where she was able to do well for now... and it seems like for now Julia can only do very well on clay, I'm sure she will improve on the other surfaces, it's just a matter of patience. :)

And the detail would be the wins vs. losses. What it matters is that she has lost a lot of times to players that are really way below her potential. But anyway, she has 35 wins and 24 losses. Although there are more wins, it doesn't seem such a good stat to me. Assuming Vika had been in good shape, you take away four wins (plus her biggest title, the sole reason people started to think she can actually be great) and add one defeat and you end up with 31 wins and 25 losses. Furthermore, the win against Safarova was not thoroughly deserved.

Against Vika no one knows, let's not forget that a match is played in 3 and only the first set was completed... :lol: Julia had a very slow start against Lucie but I fear to see why Julia's amazing come back to the Czech makes the match undeserving ?

Last season she had 36-26. Where is the great season? It doesn't really matter that she participated in bigger events, because she was not really there in most of them.

Yes it was IMO why, if you take the start of 2010 and compare it to the end, you'll realize that Julia was able to turn things around drastically, I think you must give her credit here...

Having a brilliant season doesn't mean winning majors - it's reaching to the simple objectives that you have fixed for yourself, ending in the top 50 could be a brilliant season because it's the objective you gave yourself...

Again, I know we are fans but you must watch the general picture --

At the end of the day, Julia has reached her objective to be a better player, to be in the top 20 etc... so yes her season has been brilliant, for 2012 with that solid base, she will put other objectives, be in the top 10, be more consistent etc... to make her a better player again and it's just so it goes...

She has perhaps failed some places but if you're her coach what do you tell her ? The general picture or all the little details to depress her and put her in a slump ? :lol: You see that's why fans in general can very hardly be coaches because of the lack of clairvoyance... :p Just kidding. :lol:

Cîrstea, who is not significant this season has 32-22. Really not a big difference. OTOH, Petko has 54-17. Well, that is a player that really made a breakthrough this season. But again, these numbers don't really matter. If this would have been a brilliant season, she would have won more, especially against players she should beat. Even humiliate :)

Andrea has definitively made a breakthrough but Andrea has just more experience than Julia just like Sabine - both girls have been at the top earlier than Julia... ;)

Anyways, opponents she should or shouldn't have beaten is just a significance of Julia is not yet a top player and only top players do not lose to players they shouldn't lose to that's why they're top players...

Again, redundancy, if all the girls beat players they shouldn't be losing to all would be at the top :lol: yet not all are able to do so that's what separates the oil in water - obviously the oil are the better players... :p

What the losses show is indeed what needs to be improved and she didn't do that this year. She is the same inconsistent player she was her whole career :shrug:

I said that first. :lol:

Vikapower
Oct 13th, 2011, 01:22 AM
Sure, but the growth in consistency is minimal to none. Better skills will definitely help her in the future, but there is only composure that she needs. Make her slower, take away the efficiency of her first serve and you still have the same results.

Well that's obvious, the main combustion to all what a human being does in life is the brain in which it's complexity develops emotions who can prefigure a person's mindset, motivation, attitude, character etc... in this diversity you find composure, concentration etc... in a given effort physical or intellectual and resistance to be able to sustain that effort for a certain period of time...

It's obvious that Julia can't for now sustain a positive tennis for more than a week or 2...

Well only her implication to change her situation will give the result and she is implicated -- to be at the top she'll have to implicate herself even more, double, triple, quadruple... I'm sure she will, she shows in ITWs and deiverse attitudes that she wants to and it will pay off.


Details! :lol: At this point, it is hard to believe she will have 24 titles (not to mention three majors). And she is only seven months younger than Sharapova! May a miracle happen! :help:

:lol: Don't disrespect Federer, what was his age when he started pilling up ? :lol: You never know, it just takes for Julia to be more consistent and she'd be pilling titles... majors are a different stories but I can definitively see Julia ending with 20+ titles, that's really not what's the most difficult to do especially on the lackluster tour right now.

True, but there are not really many that have her potential. The worst part is that she led us to believe that she has become consistent, she even said that, and... well, it hurts :

And [...] she's right, she has become more consistent than in the past, it's relative but important comparison to have... that's what brings you to be positive not just watching the actual point but watching it in comparison with a point of reference and her referential points are in her history...

The fact that you're saying that she deceived you because she had you think that she had become consistent is that you created a mirage in which you expected her to do well everywhere every time in each events she took part in whilst she's only been discovering top tennis for a few months.

Well take of that mirage and watch the bigger picture, yes she has become more consistent than in the past despite all the little details... what's left for Julia ? It's to learn to be a top player and top players bring their top level (in principle) in big tournaments week in and out, she is learning.

HowardH
Oct 13th, 2011, 06:23 AM
I agree that playing top level tennis is something that a player like Julia is "discovering". I'm not 100% sure she will do it, but she is capable of figuring this out. She has the ingredients. There is a transition to each new level of tennis. Julia just has to make that transition fully. At the moment she's in that transition zone, so we can expect mixed results. A few more good results would be nice though.

Dispeker
Oct 13th, 2011, 08:15 AM
Bit offtopic, but I just had to think about that scene from yesterday's match again where she screamed her head off - still gives me the shivers. Before I die, I want to see this scene again. :hearts:

Skoo
Oct 13th, 2011, 09:18 AM
:lol: Well once again you're only watching the negative sides :shrug: the month of good play was on her best surface, no ? Had Julia been in the past a strong HC player ? :D The answer is obviously no - the problem is, 60-70% of the season is made of HCs and that's certainly where Julia needs to improve herself...

I am watching the negative parts because they hit you in the eye :) No, only half of the month of good play was on clay (the rest being the SF at Auckland and some good matches in majors). She blew it in some other clay tournaments just like she did on HC. The problem is not the surface, as she showed she can play very well on every surface. The problem is that she rarely showed she can do that for more than one set and she can rarely take her chances. Just too many missed opportunities :sad:


Against Vika no one knows, let's not forget that a match is played in 3 and only the first set was completed... :lol: Julia had a very slow start against Lucie but I fear to see why Julia's amazing come back to the Czech makes the match undeserving ?

Yeah, it's not like she's not able to beat Vika, who knows... It is still about one month anyway. And Lucie gave her quite a good deal of help. She was only two games away and she cracked. Julia deserves her credit, she did start playing better, but it would be thoroughly deserved if she had woken up earlier than that.


Yes it was IMO why, if you take the start of 2010 and compare it to the end, you'll realize that Julia was able to turn things around drastically, I think you must give her credit here...

Having a brilliant season doesn't mean winning majors - it's reaching to the simple objectives that you have fixed for yourself, ending in the top 50 could be a brilliant season because it's the objective you gave yourself...

The end of 2010 was better than the end of 2011. That's the whole point. Where's the improvement? This time last year she was playing much better. She carried her form for some time into 2011, but that was it. A big regression after that, despite her improvements.

Of course, it doesn't mean winning majors. Petko didn't and she had a brilliant season. Sam's season wouldn't have been good with just the USO and it looked like it was going to be awful for the most part, but she managed to make another two finals and two semifinals. That's ok.

The fact that she reached her (modest) objectives related to rankings and certain improvements is indeed a positive thing. But I doubt her objective was to lose so many times in the first or second round to just about anyone. The bitchy attitude on court shows how she failed to achieve other, more immediate, objectives. After Madrid, she was probably hoping herself that she'll be able to be a constant presence in QF/SF of at least MMs, and maybe win another title, but it wasn't to be.


Again, I know we are fans but you must watch the general picture --

At the end of the day, Julia has reached her objective to be a better player, to be in the top 20 etc... so yes her season has been brilliant, for 2012 with that solid base, she will put other objectives, be in the top 10, be more consistent etc... to make her a better player again and it's just so it goes...

She has perhaps failed some places but if you're her coach what do you tell her ? The general picture or all the little details to depress her and put her in a slump ? :lol: You see that's why fans in general can very hardly be coaches because of the lack of clairvoyance... :p Just kidding. :lol:

Well, yes, the general picture is 80% bad season :shrug: She is not top 20 anymore and chances are she won't finish in top 20 (there's no guarantee she won't lose in the first round next week). But who cares about that? She might be out of top 50 by the end of RG. The big picture is that she's not more consistent, she just had a few good runs.

:lol: If I were her coach, of course, I would keep reality to myself and keep encouraging her. I really hope she was asking for her towel the other night, not for Nensel. It would be awful for the poor girl to be ignored like that. But, in any case, as she said on court, she realises she plays like a beginner. There is always hope and she seems very confident, just like you, because of her improvements. Probably all of us have hope, but the fact is that this was not a much better season and there's no guarantee that the next will be.


Andrea has definitively made a breakthrough but Andrea has just more experience than Julia just like Sabine - both girls have been at the top earlier than Julia... ;)

Probably the experience is what matters most, indeed. Still, both her and Andrea were about as efficient last year and it seemed they are going to be about as efficient this year too. Unfortunately, Julia couldn't keep up with her. Just like in some of her matches, she had a collapse after a good start.


Well only her implication to change her situation will give the result and she is implicated -- to be at the top she'll have to implicate herself even more, double, triple, quadruple... I'm sure she will, she shows in ITWs and deiverse attitudes that she wants to and it will pay off.

I'm not as sure as you are, but I sure hope. Actually, I doubt you are really so sure either :) We always hoped before a tournament that the mess will be over and it was just the same again and again.


:lol: Don't disrespect Federer, what was his age when he started pilling up ? :lol: You never know, it just takes for Julia to be more consistent and she'd be pilling titles... majors are a different stories but I can definitively see Julia ending with 20+ titles, that's really not what's the most difficult to do especially on the lackluster tour right now.

I think he was 22 :scratch: But he's one of a kind. And now there's Djokovic. The bad examples abound though. Judging by the present form, 10 titles would be ideal. It's not really difficult for Serena and the other who posses a clear mind right now to win titles, but Julia is part of the lackluster tour. Federer said he started winning when he stopped caring. I think caring too much might be her problem too. There are players who know how to enjoy the game and others for whom every match is like an exam :)


The fact that you're saying that she deceived you because she had you think that she had become consistent is that you created a mirage in which you expected her to do well everywhere every time in each events she took part in whilst she's only been discovering top tennis for a few months.

Well take of that mirage and watch the bigger picture, yes she has become more consistent than in the past despite all the little details... what's left for Julia ? It's to learn to be a top player and top players bring their top level (in principle) in big tournaments week in and out, she is learning.

Losing the majority of the tournaments in the first or second round is not a little detail. That is her consistency. The rest is the exception. Did you actually expect her to lose so much after Madrid? Didn't you believe she will be right there with Petko? Losing early happens to everybody from time to time, but she didn't won three matches in a row for the rest of the year. The only positive things after Madrid are the revenges she got over some nobodies and JJ.

So, no, she hasn't become more consistent, but, of course, she's still learning and this was like her first time. She might have a bright future, like Serena predicted :)

Bit offtopic, but I just had to think about that scene from yesterday's match again where she screamed her head off - still gives me the shivers. Before I die, I want to see this scene again. :hearts:

The one from the match against MJMS was better. Actually there were two, with one on the come on :hearts:

Vikapower
Oct 13th, 2011, 03:27 PM
I am watching the negative parts because they hit you in the eye :) No, only half of the month of good play was on clay (the rest being the SF at Auckland and some good matches in majors). She blew it in some other clay tournaments just like she did on HC. The problem is not the surface, as she showed she can play very well on every surface. The problem is that she rarely showed she can do that for more than one set and she can rarely take her chances. Just too many missed opportunities :sad:

Which clay tournament did Julia blow ? If you're speaking about the start of the year between Fed-Cup and IW, once again, this was just just plain dumb scheduling by Julia EVEN if she made it with good intent but she should have never broken her HC dynamic by skipping Dubaï and Doha to play to crappy tournaments on clay - yes that disrupted her rhythm.

The end of 2010 was better than the end of 2011. That's the whole point. Where's the improvement? This time last year she was playing much better. She carried her form for some time into 2011, but that was it. A big regression after that, despite her improvements.

Why did Julia play better end last year ? ITF Biarritz + Bad Gastein ? :lol: Come on, how does these tournaments EVEN weight in competition compared to Stanford, Carlsbad and Toronto ? I mean these are another level of competition, the pressure is different, the atmosphere, the opponents but also their determination etc... you really can not compare 2 different years in which the competitions do not weight to one another.

Furthermore and once again what were the surfaces Julia played in end 2010 to have success ? Clay. What are the surfaces of the US Series ? Julia has never been a super HC player, her technique self is not a HC one to say so with this huge loops, take-back etc... it's just like Nadal and Julia has to learn to adapt herself and game to a tour where 60-70% of the courts are hard.

The fact that she reached her (modest) objectives related to rankings and certain improvements is indeed a positive thing. But I doubt her objective was to lose so many times in the first or second round to just about anyone. The bitchy attitude on court shows how she failed to achieve other, more immediate, objectives. After Madrid, she was probably hoping herself that she'll be able to be a constant presence in QF/SF of at least MMs, and maybe win another title, but it wasn't to be.

Well obviously her objective wasn't to lose to any kind of opponents anyhow but what can she do ? Depress or move forward ? That's how she's going to build herself, not by crying day in and out on the opponents she could or should have beat... she just have to take the good sides an say ok, I'm going to build on this and that for 2012 to be better.

Julia has had some reference HC matches, Maria in AO, Jankovic in Toronto, the second set against Serena in Toronto etc... well she needs to take these matches and learn and keep improving.

Well, yes, the general picture is 80% bad season :shrug: She is not top 20 anymore and chances are she won't finish in top 20 (there's no guarantee she won't lose in the first round next week). But who cares about that? She might be out of top 50 by the end of RG. The big picture is that she's not more consistent, she just had a few good runs.

Well if that's what you think then you're free - from my perspective, Julia has successfully accomplished her season and perhaps her objectives as modest as they could have been were still realized...

The rest are just IMO baseless speculations, Julia's best surface is clay if someone can thoroughly predict that she's going to out of the top 50 by RG whereas she has many many points to take still in Dubaï and Doha (tournaments she skipped), IW and Miami etc... is really very very very strong because Julia has a very very big room of progression eventually it takes a very objective eye to see them.

I'm not as sure as you are, but I sure hope. Actually, I doubt you are really so sure either :) We always hoped before a tournament that the mess will be over and it was just the same again and again.

Yes, I'm sure of myself because actually we're heading to the off season - players do not improve drastically or that spectacularly during the course of a season because it's way too busy ; actually the off-season is going to either be very heavy work for Julia if she really implicates herself or not.

Wozniacki tried a heavy training to my mind a little before Stuttgart and it made her somehow pay cash - the only great improvements in Julia's game will come in the off-season if any great improvements there will be.

Losing the majority of the tournaments in the first or second round is not a little detail. That is her consistency. The rest is the exception. Did you actually expect her to lose so much after Madrid? Didn't you believe she will be right there with Petko? Losing early happens to everybody from time to time, but she didn't won three matches in a row for the rest of the year. The only positive things after Madrid are the revenges she got over some nobodies and JJ.

I certainly did not expect her to be the next Decoturf Clijsters, as I said Julia's HC CV is not strong, it's a fact she's less than 50% of wins on HC how in the world would somebody expect her to be the next Masha or Serena in such a short period of time ?

Disregard all the comments that are said on the brink of frustration or deception, we're talking rational and objective talk right now - I certainly expected Julia to do a little bit better to certain types of girls but I relativise things...

By relativising things then I can certainly realize that I, you, we were the ones making irrational beliefs whilst the data supported facts - Julia is not a good HC player, Julia needs to improve on HCs [...] she has shown some flashes here and there but not enough to be able to be consistent yet...

It's the implacable truth, the surface doesn't help her game and doesn't help her to be consistent like she was on clay because clay imposes another mindset, another vision (patience etc...) that HC does not - she feels rushed at times and she also feels the need to rush and by rushing it does not help her game (wild UEs etc...), we saw that against Kirilenko in Stanford where she was being impatient like never.

HCs is not a surface where you have or need to go for winners all the time, it's a surface where you have to keep both a high level of consistency and aggressiveness, it's not like grass where you can go all guns out because the surface requires that and promotes this kind of tennis - Julia needs to learn the secrets of HCs... that's just it....

Furthermore she needs to learn to compensate for certain things in her game, for example the spins, yes, the lift, she needs to put more weight behind these shots on HC by engaging herself physically more, not more velocity but more weight because whilst on clay the surface re-transcripts lift very well, HCs does not so many of her shots end sitting up to be pummeled and it rushes her

Here we come - the moon-balls, they do not work as well on hard and often Julia needs time, she wants time but doesn't know how to gain it by any other manner than through this, so she needs to keep learning again and again.

This is what she needs to act and work on and for me there are no doubts that she'll be a greater player on these different surfaces. :)

Skoo
Oct 13th, 2011, 07:09 PM
Which clay tournament did Julia blow ? If you're speaking about the start of the year between Fed-Cup and IW, once again, this was just just plain dumb scheduling by Julia EVEN if she made it with good intent but she should have never broken her HC dynamic by skipping Dubaï and Doha to play to crappy tournaments on clay - yes that disrupted her rhythm.

Bad decision, OK, but that can't explain why she performed so bad in all three tournaments, especially if theoretically she should perform better on clay. Those three tournaments really look like those from US HC.

You could also say that RG was a fail too. She went one round further than before, but she came very close to a defeat in the second round. She played bad from the start and made it to the third round with some help. Actually, the best tennis she played at RG was against Bartoli until the collapse.

But it is understandable, given her cold. Everything is understandable in terms of lack of experience, anxiety, low back pain etc. However, understanding her problems doesn't make the season brilliant.


Why did Julia play better end last year ? ITF Biarritz + Bad Gastein ? :lol: Come on, how does these tournaments EVEN weight in competition compared to Stanford, Carlsbad and Toronto ? I mean these are another level of competition, the pressure is different, the atmosphere, the opponents but also their determination etc... you really can not compare 2 different years in which the competitions do not weight to one another.

Furthermore and once again what were the surfaces Julia played in end 2010 to have success ? Clay. What are the surfaces of the US Series ? Julia has never been a super HC player, her technique self is not a HC one to say so with this huge loops, take-back etc... it's just like Nadal and Julia has to learn to adapt herself and game to a tour where 60-70% of the courts are hard.

I'm not talking about those tournaments. I'm talking about about Linz. But first, let's not forget she played again Bad Gastein and it was horrible. Again, it is understandable, she was the defending champion, she was feeling tired and who knows what else. She beat Pous-Tio a few weeks later, when she was feeling better.

But what about Linz? I suppose there's no doubt she played much worse this year. She also made it to the final in Luxembourg, but it would be no surprise if she loses in the first round now. She was playing better last year, in the same conditions, without improvements, probably because she was more concentrated on the task and more determined than now.


Julia has had some reference HC matches, Maria in AO, Jankovic in Toronto, the second set against Serena in Toronto etc... well she needs to take these matches and learn and keep improving.

I wanted to say that! :lol: But the thing is that I don't believe she would have performed much better if US Open Series were played on clay. With or without the advantage of the surface, she tends to make stupid things in important moments or to have a poor serve for a long time. The match against Cibulkova really was in her racquet, as she showed in the second set, but she couldn't keep momentum in the third. She said afterwards she learned from it, but repeated exactly the same thing (or variations on the same theme) many times again on HC. She looked pretty anxious there (Wimby), like she looked last night. Nothing changed. Her focus must be on the wrong things.

Nobody can say, of course, that she'll drop in the rankings, but there is that possibility.

I agree with what you said afterwards, but, from what I wrote above, it is obvious that I don't consider the surface the main culprit. Choking or plainly bad performances were caused by anxiety, at least sometimes combined with other things. That happened to her on clay and good performances like those in Stuttgart happened also on HC. She needs a clear mind and "emotional maturity" or else nothing is going to change.

Vikapower
Oct 14th, 2011, 02:14 PM
Bad decision, OK, but that can't explain why she performed so bad in all three tournaments, especially if theoretically she should perform better on clay. Those three tournaments really look like those from US HC.

Yes it can because she was on very good dynamic on hard - tennis is about also dynamics and having the ability to keep them... moreover to me, these tournaments that play during the week of Dubaï and Doha are reserved to players who do not have the abilities to qualify directly or get in the qualies - obviously Julia had no matter to be in these especially when nothing positive came from them [...]

You could also say that RG was a fail too. She went one round further than before, but she came very close to a defeat in the second round. She played bad from the start and made it to the third round with some help. Actually, the best tennis she played at RG was against Bartoli until the collapse.

Majors are majors, anything can happen and certainly wouldn't blame Julia if she was able to make a comeback one or 2 times - that happens even Sammy who won the US Open had to fight it out against Kirilenko does that taint her trophy ?

But it is understandable, given her cold. Everything is understandable in terms of lack of experience, anxiety, low back pain etc. However, understanding her problems doesn't make the season brilliant.

What makes the season brilliant is the objectives she was able to reach at the start of the 2011 year - it's just as simple as that...

But what about Linz? I suppose there's no doubt she played much worse this year. She also made it to the final in Luxembourg, but it would be no surprise if she loses in the first round now. She was playing better last year, in the same conditions, without improvements, probably because she was more concentrated on the task and more determined than now.

Julia's worst match this year to me is in Stanford - anyways for the 2nd. part again you mixing up the high competitive tour with MMs... it's not the same level of competition, Julia last year end 2010 only consisted of MMs and no play (remember she skipped the US series), this year, she decided to play the bigger tournaments to progress, it's a different atmosphere, different level of expectations, the opponents are more aggressive because they want it more etc...

I wanted to say that! :lol: But the thing is that I don't believe she would have performed much better if US Open Series were played on clay. With or without the advantage of the surface, she tends to make stupid things in important moments or to have a poor serve for a long time. The match against Cibulkova really was in her racquet, as she showed in the second set, but she couldn't keep momentum in the third. She said afterwards she learned from it, but repeated exactly the same thing (or variations on the same theme) many times again on HC. She looked pretty anxious there (Wimby), like she looked last night. Nothing changed. Her focus must be on the wrong things.

Yes but what you don't seem to understand is that the surface forces her to make these wrong decisions too why ? Because she's rushed and feels the need to rush her opponents more than they do rush her...

Clay is a different mindset, the girls are a little less aggressive and the surface is slow - often you'll see Julia go to the moon-balls why according to you ? It's because she feels in herself that she can not sustain a controlled aggressive exchange for more than 6 or 7 shots with her opponent who keeps hitting the ball relentlessly flat and through the court...

Julia spins or fair amount of top spin also indirectly gives her opponents time to rush her, especially that her rally balls don't always have a lot of weight into them - anyways you can't erase the indirect pressure the surface creates.

Hard is a surface where you need to play aggressive but with a lot of control especially that the surfaces have been slowed down a lot these last few years.

I agree with what you said afterwards, but, from what I wrote above, it is obvious that I don't consider the surface the main culprit. Choking or plainly bad performances were caused by anxiety, at least sometimes combined with other things. That happened to her on clay and good performances like those in Stuttgart happened also on HC. She needs a clear mind and "emotional maturity" or else nothing is going to change.

Yes it also happened to her on clay but she had time because of the way the mindset of the surface goes - on hard or grass if you do not have a clue things can go fairly quick (as Julia has showed us many times during the US series) - HCs have been slowed down so probably we're reaching at these extensive rallies that were seeing on clay and that Julia just doesn't seem to able to keep because of her inability to play consistent controlled aggression.

Skoo
Oct 14th, 2011, 07:38 PM
Yes it can because she was on very good dynamic on hard - tennis is about also dynamics and having the ability to keep them... moreover to me, these tournaments that play during the week of Dubaï and Doha are reserved to players who do not have the abilities to qualify directly or get in the qualies - obviously Julia had no matter to be in these especially when nothing positive came from them [...]

But the transition from HC after IW and Miami didn't bother her, on the contrary, it was the best period of her life. Of course, she should have went to the other tournaments, but we can't be sure that her HC momentum would have been preserved.

More, she played pretty bad in Eastbourne, but found her rhythm for Wimby. Of course, she messsed up against Cibulkova, but that was not because she playing bad -- she was playing much better than in Linz -- but because of the usual inability to remain focused after a break/set. Grass is the surface on which she has the least experience. She didn't seem to adapt to her best surface, despite the fact that she even had Fed Cup for preparation.

Hmm, if you look at it another way, maybe she actually did. After the bad performance in Bogota, she seems to have trashed Hermoso and got beaten by AMG, who is a clay specialist... So maybe it wasn't a problem of not being able to find momentum after HC after all. And in Monterrey she was defeated by Pervak, who is actually not a bad player. She can be as consistent as Woz, which is why she even beat Petko. This makes you wonder what would have happened had she met one of them (or Makiri :D) in Stuttgart or Madrid :)


Majors are majors, anything can happen and certainly wouldn't blame Julia if she was able to make a comeback one or 2 times - that happens even Sammy who won the US Open had to fight it out against Kirilenko does that taint her trophy ?

No, of course, but there's a difference. Julia was disappointing, while Sam won when no one saw her as a favourite. Sam played better in the end and until the end (well, with a little help from Serena). Julia didnt. But, again, she is forgiven because she was sick. Maybe in full form (at both RG and USO) she would have done more :shrug: Sam also disappointed on her theoretically best surface. Maybe Julia will win USO too first or something big on HC :p Her second final was on HC, as was her best performance I saw (against Serena), and the best performance you said you saw (against Sharapova).


What makes the season brilliant is the objectives she was able to reach at the start of the 2011 year - it's just as simple as that...

Just as simple as that is that she could have easily done more. She set her goals without expecting the win in Stuttgart and the SF in Madrid. I bet she planned to achieve her goal by being a regular quarterfinalist, not by a good month of play. Her goal was, and still is, consistency. Stuttgart should have been a bonus.

And, if I'm not mistaken, the initial goal was to end the year in top 30 to be seeded in grand slams, then it became top 20. She didn't achieve the second.

Anyway, at least for us, a really gratifying season would have been a signifcant improvement in consistency and composure. In the end, you have eight exists in the first round (almost 9, which didn't happen partialy because of the opponent's DF) and six in the second round out of 24 tournaments played (add won more exit in the second round and delete a title if Vika had beat her). She has gained experience and has apparently achieved her minimal goals and hopefully that will help her in the future, but the results this year don't look so good to me.


Julia's worst match this year to me is in Stanford - anyways for the 2nd. part again you mixing up the high competitive tour with MMs... it's not the same level of competition, Julia last year end 2010 only consisted of MMs and no play (remember she skipped the US series), this year, she decided to play the bigger tournaments to progress, it's a different atmosphere, different level of expectations, the opponents are more aggressive because they want it more etc...

It was, of course, bad in Stanford and you can understand it: first time, big names and a quality opponent. But then why play better against JJ and Serena and again bad next week against Jie? The only explanation is that she is more motivated against big names and, indeed, the quality of her performance seems to be proportional to the quality of the opponent.

And why play so bad in Linz? Of course, she was a favourite and that made the opponents play better. That doesn't explain why she wouldn't stop hitting the return on Rodina's second serve into the net or long. It was appealing to try decisive returns, of course, because it was so weak, but that girl probably had never had such a high percentage of points won on the second serve in her life :lol: Julia was simply not focused (or relaxed) and it wasn't related to the surface or the opponent.


Julia spins or fair amount of top spin also indirectly gives her opponents time to rush her, especially that her rally balls don't always have a lot of weight into them - anyways you can't erase the indirect pressure the surface creates.

I said I agree, which means I don't ignore the indirect pressure the surface creates, but, as I said, I think it's not the main culprit. Indeed, there is a number of lost points because of that. But she was rushed on many occasions on clay too when she "wasn't there". Safarova and Bartoli both forced about 40 errors. That's as much as Sharapova, who, of course, should force that many. And the number of UEs was sometimes greater on clay (no less than 53 against Safina).

It's not that I don't understand that the surface creates the pressure, I don't want to believe that. You are by far the more experienced one, but I won't take your word on authority :lol: And that is mostly because I see similarities between matches on all surfaces. I see a lot of winners that catch the line on all surfaces and a lot UEs that go slightly wide or long.

We were discussing about a certain BH DTL against Jie after a well constructed point. That was the kind of shot that became a highlight in the Stuttgart final. It barely caught the line there. I don't think it's the surface, it's just a matter of feeling (good apreciation of the speed needed for a shot) and, why not, luck. Also, she saved a MP against Sevastova with a FH that went wide on a couple (or more) ocassions before in that match. She saved BPs against JJ in Toronto with "lucky winners" just as she did against Woz in Stuttgart and Madrid.

So I don't think it's that much about the surface. A bigger advantage might be the second serve, which was more efficient on clay. And serve, in general, is the key. When she serves well when it's important, she wins (or at least gets close), no matter what surface it is. Serena didn't get any BPs and Julia hit her best serves against Pous-Tio at USO when she had to close the set (or was it the match? doesn't really matter). She didn't do that against MJMS or Sharapova. Maybe the opponents had something to do with it, but not the surface. Again, I think it's a matter of good appreciation, simply being "connected", or luck :)

Vikapower
Oct 15th, 2011, 05:59 PM
.Just as simple as that is that she could have easily done more. She set her goals without expecting the win in Stuttgart and the SF in Madrid. I bet she planned to achieve her goal by being a regular quarterfinalist, not by a good month of play. Her goal was, and still is, consistency. Stuttgart should have been a bonus.

Certainly but the circumstances were favorable so that she would make the top 20 faster and she actually played very well to reach there... seriously, I remember when against Birenerova Julia 0-6 1-5 or 0-5 down so it's not like as if she didn't make any efforts any ways as far it goes mentally to save what'd be looking like a crash on her best surface.

Anyway, at least for us, a really gratifying season would have been a signifcant improvement in consistency and composure. In the end, you have eight exists in the first round (almost 9, which didn't happen partialy because of the opponent's DF) and six in the second round out of 24 tournaments played (add won more exit in the second round and delete a title if Vika had beat her). She has gained experience and has apparently achieved her minimal goals and hopefully that will help her in the future, but the results this year don't look so good to me.

Well, what you're describing here are exactly the problems of a top 20 player, that's why they're top 20-30... :lol: I mean take any body between that mark and tell me if they've done better. :lol:

And why play so bad in Linz? Of course, she was a favourite and that made the opponents play better. That doesn't explain why she wouldn't stop hitting the return on Rodina's second serve into the net or long. It was appealing to try decisive returns, of course, because it was so weak, but that girl probably had never had such a high percentage of points won on the second serve in her life :lol: Julia was simply not focused (or relaxed) and it wasn't related to the surface or the opponent.

Your question is existential in which I have no answer for [...] Why play so good that place and not the other, why lose to this opponent and not the other, I mean this is perhaps just the laws of sports and there's really not much to do than just work efficiently to fight them but certainly not extinguish... :shrug:

I said I agree, which means I don't ignore the indirect pressure the surface creates, but, as I said, I think it's not the main culprit. Indeed, there is a number of lost points because of that. But she was rushed on many occasions on clay too when she "wasn't there". Safarova and Bartoli both forced about 40 errors. That's as much as Sharapova, who, of course, should force that many. And the number of UEs was sometimes greater on clay (no less than 53 against Safina).

Well the difference is that, when she's rushed on clay, she can always throw in some couple shots, high balls etc... to be able to recuperate herself because the surface is favorable to these ; on HC that's just not possible... so she tries from impossible positions...

I'm not saying that Julia doesn't get rushed on clay but knowing very well the different dynamics of the matches she played on the surface, she was often the one rushing her opponents than the inverse - the thing is the pressure of a major, the pressure to get beyond the 3rd. round etc... aren't of great helps either.

On HC, you just have the feeling and this even against a counter-punching Rodina that she doesn't have time or perhaps she doesn't give herself time - true that her unique technique doens't participate that much either but that's the feeling I had...

We were discussing about a certain BH DTL against Jie after a well constructed point. That was the kind of shot that became a highlight in the Stuttgart final. It barely caught the line there. I don't think it's the surface, it's just a matter of feeling (good apreciation of the speed needed for a shot) and, why not, luck. Also, she saved a MP against Sevastova with a FH that went wide on a couple (or more) ocassions before in that match. She saved BPs against JJ in Toronto with "lucky winners" just as she did against Woz in Stuttgart and Madrid.

Well Julia's technique, movement, placement also plays a big role for her, especially her placement 70-80% of why she misses DTL...

So I don't think it's that much about the surface. A bigger advantage might be the second serve, which was more efficient on clay. And serve, in general, is the key. When she serves well when it's important, she wins (or at least gets close), no matter what surface it is. [...] Again, I think it's a matter of good appreciation, simply being "connected", or luck :)

Julia's serve is very effective when it's in and it's a key but not THE Key, I think if you re-watch most of Julia's matches in Stuttgart, she was often very good in the 1st or 2nd shot after that serve and that was the things bringing her lots of points...

The thing is now Julia can't serve day in day out like in Stuttgart, there are forcefully moments when the serve will be off and she'll have to engage in exchanges and it's what she does in these exchanges or 7-8+ shots on HC that becomes problematic for her...

Skoo
Oct 15th, 2011, 08:20 PM
Well, what you're describing here are exactly the problems of a top 20 player, that's why they're top 20-30... :lol: I mean take any body between that mark and tell me if they've done better. :lol:

I took a quick look and the only one hasn't won the first match in a tournament more than her is Roberta Vinci. Jarka has also 8 first match exits and Penetta and Kuznetsvova 7. And almost all have better wins-losses numbers :facepalm:


Your question is existential in which I have no answer for [...] Why play so good that place and not the other, why lose to this opponent and not the other, I mean this is perhaps just the laws of sports and there's really not much to do than just work efficiently to fight them but certainly not extinguish... :shrug:

Existential would is too pretentious :lol: The simple things is that she can be consistent throughout a match and from match to match. That happens because of various reasons. The point was that she is worse right now than she was a year ago in Linz in terms of consistency :shrug: Of course, you could say it's just a tournament, but it's not backed up by good previous results. Simply a bad season, with a lot of missed opportunities and with a pretty big title and a few weeks a good play to make things just a little less bitter :)

I won't reply to the rest of what you said. I enjoy the discussion and it can go on forever, but I feel pretty down about it right now so I'll just end it here :)

Vikapower
Oct 16th, 2011, 05:30 PM
^^ :lol: Well I think we've has already many long discussions on Julia already here, we can only just hope 2012 will bring some greater things because I believe 2011 is kind of over right now anyways as far as I'm concerned...

Julia should end close to the top 20 or something take a few days/weeks rest and start making some heavy work for next season... that's about it... I guess.

Skoo
Oct 16th, 2011, 06:01 PM
Yeah, hopefully we'll have something different to talk about, like, you know, wins :lol:

Dispeker
Oct 26th, 2011, 09:07 PM
:aparty: I have posted the 10.000th post in this thread! :cheer:

Skoo
Oct 26th, 2011, 09:11 PM
:aparty: I have posted the 10.000th post in this thread! :cheer:

Looks like only the 183rd to me :shrug: Or do you mean the whole JG thread? :)

Dispeker
Oct 26th, 2011, 09:23 PM
Looks like only the 183rd to me :shrug: Or do you mean the whole JG thread? :)

Ehem, yes. :lol:

Skoo
Oct 26th, 2011, 09:24 PM
Ehem, yes. :lol:

Hey, that was not... intuitive, ok? :lol: Congratulations anyway :)

HowardH
Oct 26th, 2011, 09:35 PM
Oh yes, 10,000 posts in the whole Julia forum. It's visible when you go out to Sprechen Sie Deuce and see the total posts. I like milestones like that. Congrats! Interesting that Julia has the least threads (18) but among the most posts in the German group.

Tennis Fool
Oct 30th, 2011, 03:00 AM
Julia gets an Hon. Men. in the G&R Watch for reaching the semis of Lux. :)

Skoo
Oct 30th, 2011, 09:48 AM
Yay :bounce: You'll have a lot to write next season. Or not. We'll see :)

Banditoo
Nov 20th, 2011, 07:54 PM
Hi people! I read some tennis book and many interviews of tennis players. Especailly the interview of bulgarian big tennis star, Grigor Dimitrov, was very interesting for people around one tennis player. They must be a rich to have a team - a coach, a psychologist, a fitnesscoach,a masseur etc. He had many confusing losses this year. Everybody was thinking that problem is in his head. We was thinking like that because we haven't answer of his losses. But in interview he saw the probem is generaly in his body. He hadn't many muscles. Julia had new fitness coach and I guess she had more physical than psychologic ploblem. :lol:

Now I hink that I have better English than before. I like to expess myself in difference languages. :)

Skoo
Nov 21st, 2011, 12:48 PM
Hi people! I read some tennis book and many interviews of tennis players. Especailly the interview of bulgarian big tennis star, Grigor Dimitrov, was very interesting for people around one tennis player. They must be a rich to have a team - a coach, a psychologist, a fitnesscoach,a masseur etc. He had many confusing losses this year. Everybody was thinking that problem is in his head. We was thinking like that because we haven't answer of his losses. But in interview he saw the probem is generaly in his body. He hadn't many muscles. Julia had new fitness coach and I guess she had more physical than psychologic ploblem. :lol:

Now I hink that I have better English than before. I like to expess myself in difference languages. :)

Well, his head is also part of his body :) There have to be some losses caused by that (as you know, a few months ago I was actually had the hypothesis that it is the main culprit) and poor fitness/fatigue/illness can even have their impact on mental skills, but, if you look at the losses like those in Linz or against Sharapova, it is 99% in the head :) I suppose she's confused too and she puts her hopes in improved fitness and we also have to hope that that will bring some confidence and, therefore, a clear mind on court :)

Yes, your English seems to have improved. What books have you read? :)

joy division
Nov 22nd, 2011, 08:45 AM
I suppose she's confused too and she puts her hopes in improved fitness and we also have to hope that that will bring some confidence and, therefore, a clear mind on court :)

Well said, and at last the end justifies the means. .

Dispeker
Nov 22nd, 2011, 01:43 PM
From t-online news: Julia Görges slagging off Jens Lehmann (http://sport.t-online.de/tennis-julia-goerges-laestert-ueber-jens-lehmann/id_51631234/index?news). Unfortunately the article and the comments are in German, but I can tell you, some of the comments are quite harsh ;) (Poor Jule :hug:) For example, someone writes: "What titles did Lehmann win and what did Görges achieve? Lehmann: world class over many years. Görges, on the other hand, reached rank 21 by the skin of her teeth." (:boxing:) Try google translator, maybe you get what they write there.

Skoo
Nov 22nd, 2011, 01:51 PM
From t-online news: Julia Görges slagging off Jens Lehmann (http://sport.t-online.de/tennis-julia-goerges-laestert-ueber-jens-lehmann/id_51631234/index?news). Unfortunately the article and the comments are in German, but I can tell you, some of the comments are quite harsh ;) (Poor Jule :hug:) For example, someone writes: "What titles did Lehmann win and what did Görges achieve? Lehmann: world class over many years. Görges, on the other hand, reached rank 21 by the skin of her teeth." (:boxing:) Try google translator, maybe you get what they write there.

The funniest thing is that the article is based on one of her tweets and we know the quality of those :) Let them hate her, who cares. She started it, after all :)

Dispeker
Nov 22nd, 2011, 01:56 PM
I really don't care at all. I find it interesting, however, how much attention she gets from the media (and reactions from people) for this rather casual tweet.

Skoo
Nov 22nd, 2011, 02:05 PM
I really don't care at all. I find it interesting, however, how much attention she gets from the media (and reactions from people) for this rather casual tweet.

Yeah, it means all of Germany knows about the brang thing :o One day there will also be an article about the losers on TF who call the clown a goddess :o :lol:

joy division
Nov 22nd, 2011, 02:16 PM
From t-online news: Julia Görges slagging off Jens Lehmann (http://sport.t-online.de/tennis-julia-goerges-laestert-ueber-jens-lehmann/id_51631234/index?news). Unfortunately the article and the comments are in German, but I can tell you, some of the comments are quite harsh ;) (Poor Jule :hug:) For example, someone writes: "What titles did Lehmann win and what did Görges achieve? Lehmann: world class over many years. Görges, on the other hand, reached rank 21 by the skin of her teeth." (:boxing:) Try google translator, maybe you get what they write there.

Wtf:haha: I was wondering why she deleted her comments and now we know it.
To get the things clearer, Lehmann is the former national soccer team goalie and was known for his indiscretion and rude play at times on the field.
Tbh, he is pretty much a dumbass and very questionable as a commentator. Lehmann has a very clumsy style and is using a lot of phrases.
At times you can hardly understand what he wants to say with his statements, but mostly you can guess it:lol:.

Julia`s comment was a little bit harsh, but not at all insulting or anything.
Many people in general and also in this article agree with her opinion when you read the comments.
Therefore it`s ridiculous what they are doing out of this trifle :facepalm::lol:

There was absolutely no need to delete the twits.;)

Dispeker
Nov 22nd, 2011, 02:25 PM
Yeah, it means all of Germany knows about the brang thing :o One day there will also be an article about the losers on TF who call the clown a goddess :o :lol:

Ha, someday they all will be converted to the religion of Görgism. They just don't know it yet.

Skoo
Nov 22nd, 2011, 02:30 PM
Ha, someday they all will be converted to the religion of Görgism. They just don't know it yet.

Oh, yes, forgot about that :lol:

Dispeker
Nov 22nd, 2011, 02:55 PM
Wtf:haha: I was wondering why she deleted her comments and now we know it.
To get the things clearer, Lehmann is the former national soccer team goalie and was known for his indiscretion and rude play at times on the field.
Tbh, he is pretty much a dumbass and very questionable as a commentator. Lehmann has a very clumsy style and is using a lot of phrases.
At times you can hardly understand what he wants to say with his statements, but mostly you can guess it:lol:.

Julia`s comment was a little bit harsh, but not at all insulting or anything.
Many people in general and also in this article agree with her opinion when you read the comments.
Therefore it`s ridiculous what they are doing out of this trifle :facepalm::lol:

There was absolutely no need to delete the twits.;)

Hehe, soon she will be presented as the bad girl of tennis by the german media, no doubt about it. "Beauty on the outside, evil inside" or something.. And Skoo is doing his best to confirm this image with his videos and gifs :lol:

Vikapower
Nov 22nd, 2011, 09:06 PM
Wtf:haha: I was wondering why she deleted her comments and now we know it.
To get the things clearer, Lehmann is the former national soccer team goalie and was known for his indiscretion and rude play at times on the field.
Tbh, he is pretty much a dumbass and very questionable as a commentator. Lehmann has a very clumsy style and is using a lot of phrases.
At times you can hardly understand what he wants to say with his statements, but mostly you can guess it:lol:.

Julia`s comment was a little bit harsh, but not at all insulting or anything.
Many people in general and also in this article agree with her opinion when you read the comments.
Therefore it`s ridiculous what they are doing out of this trifle :facepalm::lol:

There was absolutely no need to delete the twits.;)

Someone can't even give a simple opinion without being belittled of discredited :shrug: unless if Julia said something really really bad... Yannick Noah said Spanish sportive dope in general without exception, Julia didn't say something like that unless it was hidden... :eek:

Well if she's the truth well she said the truth, even if it wasn't the truth, it's her perception about things, eventually there are always some little kadhafist to discuss one's colors and taste with their political police.

And that person on the comment section who said that Julia didn't accomplish nothing so can't comment is just... :tape: in that sense then what authority gives him/her the competence to give an opinion on her since him/herself has not played tennis and has accomplished nothing in that specific department ?

By saying this that person is involuntarily questioning the credibility of Jens Lehman too, 0 champion's league with Arsenal, not a Premier league title with them so then where does his come from too to comment considering just like Julia he doesn't have the famous majors or Messiesque accomplishments ?

Certain people are just too crazy in this world. Julia should have never deleted her tweet. :hug:

Vikapower
Nov 22nd, 2011, 09:13 PM
So Julia is fund of the Bayern of Münich ? :lol: She might have been deceived from the match... lol, I don't watch much soccer unless Madrid, in fact I don't like soccer at all but I saw that result on l'Equipe.

hankmoody
Nov 22nd, 2011, 11:19 PM
Someone can't even give a simple opinion without being belittled of discredited unless if Julia said something really really bad... Yannick Noah said Spanish sportive dope in general without exception, Julia didn't say something like that unless it was hidden...

Well if she's the truth well she said the truth, even if it wasn't the truth, it's her perception about things, eventually there are always some little kadhafist to discuss one's colors and taste with their political police.

And that person on the comment section who said that Julia didn't accomplish nothing so can't comment is just... in that sense then what authority gives him/her the competence to give an opinion on her since him/herself has not played tennis and has accomplished nothing in that specific department ?

By saying this that person is involuntarily questioning the credibility of Jens Lehman too, 0 champion's league with Arsenal, not a Premier league title with them so then where does his come from too to comment considering just like Julia he doesn't have the famous majors or Messiesque accomplishments ?

Certain people are just too crazy in this world. Julia should have never deleted her tweet.

So Julia is fund of the Bayern of Münich ? :lol: She might have been deceived from the match... lol, I don't watch much soccer unless Madrid, in fact I don't like soccer at all but I saw that result on l'Equipe.

Plus the fact that Lehmann is like a red rag to a bull for Bayern fans.;) This wasn`t the first time she complained about him (she even did so after a victory :))

And about the comments on that article... german football fans are often very ignorant of other sports:rolleyes: and a LOT of them dislike Bayern fans! (Also being a red, I know what I´m talking about ;))
So don`t take this negative comments too seriuos, most of them are rather based on hatred against the club than on her. :(

But this is typical for german media, they publish stupid articles about athlete`s tweets all the time :facepalm: (e.g. like every 2nd tweet from Nowitzki is mentioned on either eurosport, sport1, teletext,...)

Vikapower
Nov 23rd, 2011, 12:15 AM
Plus the fact that Lehmann is like a red rag to a bull for Bayern fans.;) This wasn`t the first time she complained about him (she even did so after a victory :))

Didn't he play in Bayern M. ? ROFL, I don't really know lol IK he passed through Arsenal and as Arsenal hasn't won a thing for 16.000 years, it's easy to guess for him. :lol:

And about the comments on that article... german football fans are often very ignorant of other sports:rolleyes: and a LOT of them dislike Bayern fans! (Also being a red, I know what I´m talking about ;))
So don`t take this negative comments too seriuos, most of them are rather based on hatred against the club than on her. :(

:lol: Well it's just like the OM-PSG in France I guess but PSG was sucking for so long that other fans barely had something to say until the Qataris decided to invest money in the club...

Well personally I don't know if to blame or positive :lol: even if I have a reasonable palette of knowledge on sports there are certain I will tend to criticize strongly and voluntarily ignore for X or Y reasons... sports engaging mechanics to start, then hockey on ice and the main sports bar NBA coming from the US, basket-ball in Europe.

I guess though contrary to the certain Bavarian soccer supporters you speak about I'm careful at not commenting on things I do not know about and as there only 2 sports I can claim to know well (tennis and volleyball) then I'm pretty safe. :hatoff:

But this is typical for german media, they publish stupid articles about athlete`s tweets all the time :facepalm: (e.g. like every 2nd tweet from Nowitzki is mentioned on either eurosport, sport1, teletext,...)

:lol: That's funny... why do they do that ? Athlete's do not talk to the medias that much in Germany ? :lol:

There's that big show even Sabz came and many celebrities are invited I guess it's on la RTBF or something... I saw a video Youtube... in France we do not have these kinds of Hollywood super-productions Le Grand Journal but that's not even long enough to get a correct ITW with the athlete.

Though they have some extremely beautiful weather reporters (girls) who never say the weather forecast than spending time saying jokes. :facepalm: :hearts:

hankmoody
Nov 23rd, 2011, 01:33 AM
Didn't he play in Bayern M. ? ROFL, I don't really know lol IK he passed through Arsenal and as Arsenal hasn't won a thing for 16.000 years, it's easy to guess for him.
No, he was the counterpart to Bayern`s all time #1 Olli Kahn and Bayern fans hate him, at the latest, since he displaced Olli in `06 World Cup! :fiery: ... and yeah, Arsenal sucks;)

Well it's just like the OM-PSG in France I guess but PSG was sucking for so long that other fans barely had something to say until the Qataris decided to invest money in the club...

Well personally I don't know if to blame or positive even if I have a reasonable palette of knowledge on sports there are certain I will tend to criticize strongly and voluntarily ignore for X or Y reasons... sports engaging mechanics to start, then hockey on ice and the main sports bar NBA coming from the US, basket-ball in Europe.

I guess though contrary to the certain Bavarian soccer supporters you speak about I'm careful at not commenting on things I do not know about and as there only 2 sports I can claim to know well (tennis and volleyball) then I'm pretty safe.

Well unfortunately I have little knowledge of either French football (apart from the fact, that our beloved Franck came from OM ;)), nor any kind of volleyball (beside the fact, that the German Volleyball-Gils just failed to qualify for the Olympics... right??)

Just imagine a club winning the national championship almost every 2 years in the last decade + having a budget way bigger than any other club in the league (earned by good management :)) That`s why they hate us! :D

That's funny... why do they do that ? Athlete's do not talk to the medias that much in Germany ?

There's that big show even Sabz came and many celebrities are invited I guess it's on la RTBF or something... I saw a video Youtube... in France we do not have these kinds of Hollywood super-productions Le Grand Journal but that's not even long enough to get a correct ITW with the athlete.

Though they have some extremely beautiful weather reporters (girls) who never say the weather forecast than spending time saying jokes.

Honestly, I have no idea why!
For example, Dirk did a lot of Interviews in the last few months, and still even Tweets like " I watched the rangers match tonight" (MLB, right??:)) are considered to be worthy being published in articles (I believe it was on Eurosport)!!

The show you were talking about, I honestly have no idea what "la RTBF" means:confused:, but I think you mean 'das aktuelle Sportstudio' on ZDF... well 98% of the guests are football players (or coaches)! I`d say the only reason Sabine appeared,was because it was the football off-season :sad:(despite being womens football world cup, which few people really cared about and still was taking about 30% of the topics they talked about!:()

Vikapower
Nov 23rd, 2011, 01:59 PM
No, he was the counterpart to Bayern`s all time #1 Olli Kahn and Bayern fans hate him, at the latest, since he displaced Olli in `06 World Cup! :fiery: ... and yeah, Arsenal sucks

Aren't we going to play an amicable match sometime with France receiving Germany ? I think we're going to lost heavily though we're on 16-17 consecutive wins from memory.

Well unfortunately I have little knowledge of either French football (apart from the fact, that our beloved Franck came from OM ;)), nor any kind of volleyball (beside the fact, that the German Volleyball-Gils just failed to qualify for the Olympics... right??)

Ribery is quite a good player, he scored 2 goals yesterday against (?) in the champion's league but he never plays well in the national team so lol for him. La ligue 1 anyways IMO doesn't worth watching really lol, unless for lille or PSG, Montpellier also most of the other teams are meh.

You don't watch girls volleyball :smash: volleyball girls are the most fittest, sweetest physically shaped hot girls on earth :eek: and there's like 6-7 per sq. meters... :drool:

:haha: I don't watch volleyball for this specific reason though, anyways no only... I played the sport intensively for like 2-3 years so I really love watching and playing... the main reason for girls is for the first time I saw a match on TV was in 2004 Athens Olympics (Russia vs. China, Cuba etc... :drool:), really liked and stayed to them.

The other reason is that in girls just like in the WTA tour, there's much more drama than the guys during the course of a match... much more exchanges, defenses, swings of momentum etc... but a contrario to the WTA/ATP the guys are the ball-bashers.

I think Germany qualified for the Olympics since they made the F of the European Championships...

Honestly, I have no idea why!
For example, Dirk did a lot of Interviews in the last few months, and still even Tweets like " I watched the rangers match tonight" (MLB, right??) are considered to be worthy being published in articles (I believe it was on Eurosport)!!

:lol: Well I guess everyone to there's... tweeter has really become an arm of massive [insert].

The show you were talking about, I honestly have no idea what "la RTBF" means:confused:, but I think you mean 'das aktuelle Sportstudio' on ZDF... well 98% of the guests are football players (or coaches)! I`d say the only reason Sabine appeared,was because it was the football off-season :sad:(despite being womens football world cup, which few people really cared about and still was taking about 30% of the topics they talked about!)

:lol: Yes it's that, ZDF... RTBF I think is a channel in Belgium or something from there... :lol:

Yes I saw when Sabine came on the show she was really lovely and incredibly hot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehHkgbEfw1M) -- what is the other show I'm mentioning about, IK it's a blockbuster in Germany ?

I can remember in our zapping that Tom Cruise had jumped on the sofa when announcing his wedding to his actual wife, that was sometime ago. :lol:

:rolleyes: Soccer can really be way too overwhelming in consideration to other sports... I hate it when channels like Eurosport would privilege a stupid <17 yo. world cup match to a very important tennis match for example or even when they cut the course of a match to show a stupid pre-champion's league ITW. :rolleyes:

Furthermore the Knysna, when France ridiculed itself in front the world didn't help it's cause. :lol:

hankmoody
Nov 23rd, 2011, 11:52 PM
Aren't we going to play an amicable match sometime with France receiving Germany ? I think we're going to lost heavily though we're on 16-17 consecutive wins from memory.
You mean a friendly? Yeah I think so, in Feb I believe, looking forward to it. :)

You don't watch girls volleyball volleyball girls are the most fittest, sweetest physically shaped hot girls on earth and there's like 6-7 per sq. meters...

I don't watch volleyball for this specific reason though, anyways no only... I played the sport intensively for like 2-3 years so I really love watching and playing... the main reason for girls is for the first time I saw a match on TV was in 2004 Athens Olympics (Russia vs. China, Cuba etc... ), really liked and stayed to them.

The other reason is that in girls just like in the WTA tour, there's much more drama than the guys during the course of a match... much more exchanges, defenses, swings of momentum etc... but a contrario to the WTA/ATP the guys are the ball-bashers.

I think Germany qualified for the Olympics since they made the F of the European Championships...
Yeah...no, the sport never really fascinated me. If any kind of volleyball I think I would go for beach-volleyball :drool:
But seriously... believe it or not, I don`t choose my favourite sports only by looks:lol:

Yes it's that, ZDF... RTBF I think is a channel in Belgium or something from there...

Yes I saw when Sabine came on the show she was really lovely and incredibly hot -- what is the other show I'm mentioning about, IK it's a blockbuster in Germany ?

I can remember in our zapping that Tom Cruise had jumped on the sofa when announcing his wedding to his actual wife, that was sometime ago.

Soccer can really be way too overwhelming in consideration to other sports... I hate it when channels like Eurosport would privilege a stupid <17 yo. world cup match to a very important tennis match for example or even when they cut the course of a match to show a stupid pre-champion's league ITW.

Furthermore the Knysna, when France ridiculed itself in front the world didn't help it's cause.
She did look lovely...:hearts:

But :confused: Wasn`t that Tom Cruise stuff on Oprah??? :confused:
I honestly have no idea what show you are talking about? (The only blockbuster show in Germany I can think of is "Wetten Dass", but it really sucks:help: And I haven`t seen a tennis player there for at least a decade?? Exept, maybe for Bobbele, when he announced one of his affairs. ;):lol: )

You are right, even though I love football, I absolutely agree, that the dominance of this sport is just plain ridicolous!! :mad:
Is it as bad in France as it is in Germany, where football takes about 90% of sport-media`s attention???

And btw, I was really sad about the performance of the Équipe Tricolore in `10. :sad:

Dispeker
Nov 24th, 2011, 09:10 AM
http://www.77.am/images/storiesjulia_sascha.JPG

23.11.2011 - Trainingsauftakt an bekannter Stätte: Vier Wochen lang trainiert Julia Görges derzeit an der Tennisbase Hannover by MIG Fonds. Die 23-Jährige, die das Jahr 2011 als Nummer 21 der Weltrangliste abschloss, nutzt damit die Gegebenheiten in Hannover nach Sabine Lisicki und Anna-Lena Grönefeld als
dritte Spielerin der deutschen Fed Cup-Mannschaft.

Für Julia Görges ist das Trainingszentrum in Hannover allerdings alles andere als unbekannt. Von Anfang des Jahres 2008 bis Ende 2009 lebte und trainierte die Siegerin des Porsche Grand Prix 2011 im Bundesstützpunkt, bevor sie Trainer Sascha Nensel verpflichtete, der sie binnen zwei Jahren in die Weltspitze führte. „Ich kenne hier alles und habe alles was ich brauche, um meine Vorbereitung auf die neue Saison zu beginnen“, sagt Görges. Die Ziele für 2012 kann sie klar umreißen: „In erster Linie möchte ich meine Saison von 2011 bestätigen“, verdeutlicht sie.

Wenn sie dabei noch ein paar Plätze auf der Weltrangliste nach vorne springen würde, sei das ein positiver Nebeneffekt. Mitgebracht hat sie nach Hannover mit dem Fitnesstrainer Raj Chaudhuri ein neues Teammitglied. „Wir werden den Fitness- und Konditionsanteil in unserem Training noch erhöhen“, erklärt Sascha Nensel, der seit Beginn der Zusammenarbeit mit Julia Görges die Fitnessarbeit im Training fokussierte. „In diesem Bereich muss man immer wieder neue Wege gehen“, sagt er.

„Wir freuen uns natürlich, dass Julia immer wieder nach Hannover zurückkehrt und das Trainingsumfeld nutzt“, erklärt Eckhard Mittelstaedt, als Geschäftsführer der NTV Sport GmbH verantwortlich für die TennisBase Hannover by MIG Fonds. Für uns ist die Tatsache, dass neben zahlreichen Spielerinnen und Spielern aus den Bundeskadern, die schon bei uns trainieren, jetzt auch weitere A-Kader und Fed Cup-Spielerinnen die Tennisbase nutzen, ganz klar ein Zeichen, dass unser Konzept stimmt, dass unser Angebot und unser Trainerteam mit Nicolas Kiefer als Headcoach und Mentor sehr komplett und attraktiv ist.“


Short summary: Julia is going to practise for four weeks at the Tennisbase Hannover. She says her goal for 2012 is to confirm her last season's performance and maybe to climb up a few ranks. (That's going to be tough enough, baby.)

joy division
Nov 24th, 2011, 09:44 AM
^^^
Thanks for this, Dispeker.:yeah:

Another detail -
„Wir werden den Fitness- und Konditionsanteil in unserem Training noch erhöhen“, erklärt Sascha Nensel, der seit Beginn der Zusammenarbeit mit Julia Görges die Fitnessarbeit im Training fokussierte. „In diesem Bereich muss man immer wieder neue Wege gehen“, sagt er.

"We will raise the part of practice time for fitness and physical stamina even more", Nensel said, who was focused to work on her fitness from the beginning.
"In this area you have to look for other ways again and again".

Nensel is a fitness guru:sport:,
It can`t be wrong to be fit as a fiddle, therefore hopefully everything goes well in the end.:)

Skoo
Nov 24th, 2011, 12:07 PM
I hope "to confirm the last season's performance" does not imply losing the first match eight times. Neither six times the second one :lol:

HowardH
Nov 24th, 2011, 01:10 PM
I guess we would usually say "build on last season's performance" in English, which emphasises the desire to improve on a decent performance.
"Confirm", as Skoo's post indicates, tends to suggest repeating last season's performance.

Being fitter will hopefully help her to perform consistently throughout a year, allowing her to recover from deep runs in tournaments.
However, in a skill based sport like tennis, fitness is only one aspect.
But every little thing helps. I think the fitness thing will pay off longterm. In the short term, I wonder how well she will start the year?

Vikapower
Nov 24th, 2011, 02:05 PM
You mean a friendly? Yeah I think so, in Feb I believe, looking forward to it. :)

Yeah...no, the sport never really fascinated me. If any kind of volleyball I think I would go for beach-volleyball :drool:
But seriously... believe it or not, I don`t choose my favourite sports only by looks:lol:

Ha, ha, yes the friendly match... :lol: Me neither but the first time I started watching tennis was because of Maria's looks...:lol: :oh:

But :confused: Wasn`t that Tom Cruise stuff on Oprah??? :confused:
I honestly have no idea what show you are talking about? (The only blockbuster show in Germany I can think of is "Wetten Dass", but it really sucks:help: And I haven`t seen a tennis player there for at least a decade?? Exept, maybe for Bobbele, when he announced one of his affairs. ;):lol: )

:lol: I know I'm not crazy but I really do not know the name and french Wikipédia sucks... :lol:

You are right, even though I love football, I absolutely agree, that the dominance of this sport is just plain ridicolous!! :mad:
Is it as bad in France as it is in Germany, where football takes about 90% of sport-media`s attention???

Yes it's that bad too... I mean we were WC champions in 1998... and that's what made football sooooo popular in France. Initially that wasn't our sport of predilection just like in Brazil

And btw, I was really sad about the performance of the Équipe Tricolore in `10. :sad:

;) I could only feel pity lol but Laurent Blanc is trying to change things.

^^^
Thanks for this, Dispeker.:yeah:

Another detail -
„Wir werden den Fitness- und Konditionsanteil in unserem Training noch erhöhen“, erklärt Sascha Nensel, der seit Beginn der Zusammenarbeit mit Julia Görges die Fitnessarbeit im Training fokussierte. „In diesem Bereich muss man immer wieder neue Wege gehen“, sagt er.

"We will raise the part of practice time for fitness and physical stamina even more", Nensel said, who was focused to work on her fitness from the beginning.
"In this area you have to look for other ways again and again".

Nensel is a fitness guru:sport:,
It can`t be wrong to be fit as a fiddle, therefore hopefully everything goes well in the end.:)

Well that looks pretty good -- if Julia wants to be a great champion in the game anyways at her extent, she and her team has to do more... work harder, stronger and especially work perspicaciously on the departments that need progression... I'm certain things will be well... and Julia looks really stunning here.

As for the rankings, well they reflect your level of the moment... Julia is inconsistent and this is the attributes of most players ranked between the 11 and 20 mark... they're good but just not good yet enough to be up there with the elites. If Julia finds consistency in her results then certainly and with no doubts she'll get higher ranked.

It just needs one, Petra the #1 was #34 sometime back then and in the blink of 5 months she's already at the top of the rankings... :lol: I don't think similar scenario will happen for Julia but it has already happened, remember where she was before Charleston and the clay season.

Julia just needs to use her strengths good and hopefully she has a strong start to 2012... the early surfaces are much more favorable to her (plexicushion, then some kind of medium-fast Dubaï/Doha then the slow IW/Miami then clay)...

Vikapower
Nov 24th, 2011, 02:13 PM
Being fitter will hopefully help her to perform consistently throughout a year, allowing her to recover from deep runs in tournaments.
However, in a skill based sport like tennis, fitness is only one aspect.
But every little thing helps. I think the fitness thing will pay off longterm. In the short term, I wonder how well she will start the year?

Well are they going to do something like how Wozniacki did before Stuttgart ? Eventually I didn't understand the article since it's German but I'll say that it's good for a player's mental health on court to know that she can last 3 or 3 hours 1/2 without losing her wheels... yes also it will allow Julia to be able to hold much more stronger on a longer period of the year...

But, is Julia's "physique" really the problem ? She was so up and down that I don't really believe it to be... it's not like she held a strong dynamic for all the year that would make at the end she would be completely exhausted... also Julia didn't go deep in most of the tournaments she played...

Every aspect is indeed important... certain parts of Julia's movement needs strong improvement for the style of tennis she plays, stamina will be very important if finally Julia has found the stub to eliminate in her game so that to play top tennis week in and out... I'm impatient to see.

joy division
Nov 24th, 2011, 03:10 PM
I guess we would usually say "build on last season's performance" in English, which emphasises the desire to improve on a decent performance.
"Confirm", as Skoo's post indicates, tends to suggest repeating last season's performance.


Julia said -
"In erster Linie möchte ich meine Saison von 2011 bestätigen".
"First of all I want to confirm my performance of 2011."

You never know what the author adds. I just take it given that she is recited in the right way here.

Providing that, it has not the meaning of she "builds up on last season's performance", as you suppose here.
It`s has to do with it but it`s a different matter.
Julia uses a phrase that is often used in German sports. Means to be ready and cautiously confident about the new season.
She likes these modest non specific kind of statements and could have also said
Overall I`d be happy when I could keep my position in the rankings next year. But I don`t worry if it`s getting even better.

Dispeker
Nov 24th, 2011, 03:33 PM
I guess we would usually say "build on last season's performance" in English, which emphasises the desire to improve on a decent performance.
"Confirm", as Skoo's post indicates, tends to suggest repeating last season's performance.

Thanks for your remark, Howard. I probably translated Julia's statement too literally. Just to clear things up: She really says that she wants to confirm [„bestätigen“] her last season's performance . In German it makes sense [It's quite a common expression]. Because a German speaker automatically infers from the context that she only refers to the good results here. But good to know that this doesn't work in English :)

Dispeker
Nov 24th, 2011, 03:37 PM
Julia said -
"In erster Linie möchte ich meine Saison von 2011 bestätigen".
"First of all I want to confirm my performance of 2011."

You never know what the author adds. I just take it given that she is recited in the right way here.

Given that it has not the meaning of she "builds up on last season's performance", as you suppose here.
It`s has to do with it but it`s a different matter.
Julia uses a phrase that is often used in German sports. Means to be ready and cautiously confident about the new season.
She likes these modest kind of statements and could have also said
Overall I`d be happy when I could keep my position in the rankings next year.

Ah, I didn't see your post :) Translation is no easy business (at least for me) :D

joy division
Nov 24th, 2011, 03:46 PM
Ah, I didn't see your post :) Translation is no easy business (at least for me) :D

Howard is really interested these little details.
For me translating is everything but easy, too.
Btw. your`s was completely right:shrug::wavey:

Skoo
Nov 24th, 2011, 03:53 PM
She should have said she wants to confirm her 2011 performance until Madrid :) The rest is silence, as Hamlet put it :lol:

Dispeker
Nov 25th, 2011, 10:33 AM
She should have said she wants to confirm her 2011 performance until Madrid :) The rest is silence, as Hamlet put it :lol:

I'm sure that's what she basically was referring to. But of course, it would have spared the non-German speakers some confusion ;)

Howard is really interested these little details.

Me too ;) That's why I appreciate being corrected by a native English speaker like Howard, because it really helps to get a better understanding of how the language works.

Btw. your`s was completely right:shrug::wavey:

:kiss: (;))

Skoo
Nov 25th, 2011, 04:06 PM
I'm sure that's what she basically was referring to. But of course, it would have spared the non-German speakers some confusion ;)

I don't think it's a language issue. This is considered her breakthrough year and I think she was also in a poll on the WTA website. And ask Vikapower, he will confirm :) Reaching the third round of all majors, 3 SFs and the Stuttgart title make it look like a breakthrough, but without consistency and with tons of early loses I don't think it can really be considered that :)

joy division
Dec 7th, 2011, 09:30 AM
Boris Becker enthüllt Erfolgsgeheimnis

Mi 07.Dez. 09:46:00 2011


Tennis-Legende Boris Becker hat exklusiv bei Eurosport sein Erfolgsgeheimnis gelüftet. Der sechsmalige Grand-Slam-Sieger erzählte am Rande des London Chess Classic, dass für ihn Schach der Schlüssel zum Erfolg war. "Die geistige Anregung hat mein Tennisspiel verbessert", so der Ex-Profi.


Becker, der seine Liebe zum Schach als Teenager entdeckte, nutzte das Schachspiel zur Vorbereitung auf wichtige Matches. So habe er vor Duellen mit Rivalen wie John McEnroe das Spiel gespielt, bevor er auf den Platz ging.

"Mentale Energie ist sehr wichtig, um Erfolg im Tennis zu haben. Schach ist der perfekte Weg, das Gehirn auf den Stress einzustellen", so der Leimener.

"Federer bester Schachspieler"

Von den aktuellen Spielern sieht Becker Roger Federer als besten Schachspieler: "Er denkt auf die richtige Weise, versucht seinem Konkurrenten einen Schritt voraus zu sein und konzentriert sich immer auf seine Strategie und Taktik."

Auch bei Rafael Nadal sieht er gute Anlagen. "Nadal würde ebenfalls ein guter Schachspieler sein, weil er ein strategischer Denker ist und auf dem Platz sehr fokussiert bleibt. Aber wie gesagt: Federer wäre der Beste."

"Federer auf dem Weg an die Spitze"

Becker traut dem ehemaligen Branchenprimus aus der Schweiz 2012 große Taten zu: "Federer hat immer noch den Hunger, das Verlangen, die Fitness und die Möglichkeiten einen Grand Slam zu gewinnen. Ich sehe ihn wieder auf dem Weg an die Spitze."

Das nächste Jahr könnte nach Einschätzung Beckers "sogar besser als 2011" werden. Das führt der dreimalige Wimbledon-Sieger auf die Leistungsexplosion von Novak Djokovic zurück: "Sein Spiel hat sich in den letzten zwölf Monaten extrem verbessert, und ich denke, dass er sich vor allem mental entwickelt hat.
http://de.eurosport.yahoo.com/07122011/73/boris-becker-enthuellt-erfolgsgeheimnis.html


^^^

Becker talks about his "secret of success" in his career.
He prepared for matches by playing chess and mainly says that it`s all about mental strength on the court.
Men`s and women`s tennis is something different, anyway pretty interesting view.
On request I`ll do a translation. :wavey:

Skoo
Dec 7th, 2011, 10:02 AM
Becker talks about his "secret of success" in his career.
He prepared for matches by playing chess and mainly says that it`s all about mental strength on the court.
Men`s and women`s tennis is something different, anyway pretty interesting view.
On request I`ll do a translation. :wavey:

He's just saying that because he had not physical problems and the game was less demanding :) But interesting about chess. I wonder if it can diminish/eliminate rumination or he was just too confident regardless :)

joy division
Dec 7th, 2011, 06:14 PM
He's just saying that because he had not physical problems and the game was less demanding :) But interesting about chess. I wonder if it can diminish/eliminate rumination or he was just too confident regardless :)

Becker had some problems with the ankles and muscles during his career, but not much more than usual looking at the physical demands of the sport.
If you look at his physical precondition overall, I think that he is the most unathletic World class Top player ever, maybe Mc Enroe was similarly underprivileged in that department.:lol:
Concerning fitness, I guess, he was not in a better shape than the other players.
His big strength was the ability to focus and peaking right at the close moments.
In chess you consciously practice presence of mind while keeping the overview on the whole board and the course of the game.
You can`t be successful there without these attitudes and actually also not in tennis, but it`s less obvious there.
Therefore his statement makes sense to me.
Anyway you can`t compare players. Every athlete has his individual precondition and career and own way to improve or not.
Julia is a very different kind of ( also female) player, and from Mau-Mau to chess it`s a very long way:D.

Skoo
Dec 7th, 2011, 07:09 PM
Becker had some problems with the ankles and muscles during his career, but not much more than usual looking at the physical demands of the sport.
If you look at his physical precondition overall, I think that he is the most unathletic World class Top player ever, maybe Mc Enroe was similarly underprivileged in that department.:lol:
Concerning fitness, I guess, he was not in a better shape than the other players.
His big strength was the ability to focus and peaking right at the close moments.

Oh, I see, so I was plain wrong about his physical condition :) Still, would you say Federer is athletic? What about Serena? They don't look athletic to me, but they still have a lot of endurance and Federer had barely any injuries. Maybe Becker is a tricky one too? :)

In chess you consciously practice presence of mind while keeping the overview on the whole board and the course of the game.
You can`t be successful there without these attitudes and actually also not in tennis, but it`s less obvious there.
Therefore his statement makes sense to me.
Anyway you can`t compare players. Every athlete has his individual precondition and career and own way to improve or not.
Julia is a very different kind of ( also female) player, and from Mau-Mau to chess it`s a very long way:D.

:lol: Sure, playing chess probably increases your awareness level and planning abilities, but a very important thing is what you focus on. Before a (big) match it is not very likely that you will be able to concentrate on a chess game. Your mind would probably be on the upcoming match and the thoughts about it would not allow much space for chess. You need a lot of confidence to be able to play chess before a big event :)

Of course, you shouldn't take your ruminations with you on court so I thought perhaps chess could be a technique to get your mind of the upcoming event and, therefore, have a clear mind on court later. A few months ago, I was talking about that technique of writing down your worries before an important test, which was tested in educational settings and had great results, and I was proposing (more or less seriously) to tell her that on Twitter. Perhaps Becker's chess playing had the same effect, though it doesn't seem very likely to me. Writing down your worries is a frontal approach to your problem and it eliminates rumination because you probably reach a conclusion. Playing chess is something like ignoring your problem and it might appear again on court. So I think that he was just too confident and was playing chess to kill time before a match.

This also means that chess would probably not help Julia very much. No "smart" activity would, unless it would have a diminishing effect on anxiety. Her planning, awareness, anticipation and decision making as they are now would be just fine if the rumination would not be there. Nonetheless, those smart activities would make her more interesting off the court :)

Say, in what way did Becker say women's tennis is different from men's?

joy division
Dec 7th, 2011, 08:19 PM
Oh, I see, so I was plain wrong about his physical condition :) Still, would you say Federer is athletic? What about Serena? They don't look athletic to me, but they still have a lot of endurance and Federer had barely any injuries. Maybe Becker is a tricky one too? :)

Federer is not an athlete in the sense of having a very powerful body. Imo, that`s not necessarily needed in tennis.
He can move very quick and has a outstanding qualities in his strokes.
Becker says about him in the interview-
"he is the best "chess player" of the Top guys. He anticipates the right way, tries to be one step ahead of his opponents and always concentrates on his own strategy and tactic."


:lol: Sure, playing chess probably increases your awareness level and planning abilities, but a very important thing is what you focus on. Before a (big) match it is not very likely that you will be able to concentrate on a chess game. Your mind would probably be on the upcoming match and the thoughts about it would not allow much space for chess. You need a lot of confidence to be able to play chess before a big event :)

I don`t know how he meant it here exactly and how serious the article is.
The statements on this concern (word by word)
- he plays chess since he was a teenager
- the mental stimulation he took of playing chess actually did improve his tennis game.
- he actually used to play chess before his matches against Mc Enroe, before he went on the court;)
- "Mental" energy in tennis is very important. Playing chess is the perfect way to brace your brain for stress.


Of course, you shouldn't take your ruminations with you on court so I thought perhaps chess could be a technique to get your mind of the upcoming event and, therefore, have a clear mind on court later. A few months ago, I was talking about that technique of writing down your worries before an important test, which was tested in educational settings and had great results, and I was proposing (more or less seriously) to tell her that on Twitter. Perhaps Becker's chess playing had the same effect, though it doesn't seem very likely to me. Writing down your worries is a frontal approach to your problem and it eliminates rumination because you probably reach a conclusion. Playing chess is something like ignoring your problem and it might appear again on court. So I think that he was just too confident and was playing chess to kill time before a match.

This also means that chess would probably not help Julia very much. No "smart" activity would, unless it would have a diminishing effect on anxiety. Her planning, awareness, anticipation and decision making as they are now would be just fine if the rumination would not be there. Nonetheless, those smart activities would make her more interesting off the court :)

Everybody has his own way to handle pressure and so the methods to keep the composure are very different.
Julia had at times her notebook of the coach`s advice with her and read them during the breaks although she already knew the content. She used it somehow like chill pill.:)
I guess, Becker`s chess playing was also an important part of the preparation for a match, and building up mental strength overall. Not just for killing time before the match:lol:


Say, in what way did Becker say women's tennis is different from men's?

I mentioned that, not Becker.

Skoo
Dec 8th, 2011, 10:50 AM
Federer is not an athlete in the sense of having a very powerful body. Imo, that`s not necessarily needed in tennis.
He can move very quick and has a outstanding qualities in his strokes.
Becker says about him in the interview-
"he is the best "chess player" of the Top guys. He anticipates the right way, tries to be one step ahead of his opponents and always concentrates on his own strategy and tactic."

Hm, I heard that before about Federer (I think at ATP WTF :lol:). So he was the one who said it :) Anyway, in what sense was then Becker less athletic? He was slow? I thought you were talking about his aspect and Federer doesn't look athletic either, but he actually is. He has strength, speed, endurance... you name it :)

He was very anxious, too, long ago, from what I heard. He started playing chess after he got rid of that anxiety, but you can still see it sometimes even now (e.g., USO). I think Julia could be a chess player too, her game tends to be smart and maybe she'll be able to play her chess soon. But, of course, in the athleticism department she is far from Federer. She's working on it though :)



I don`t know how he meant it here exactly and how serious the article is.
The statements on this concern (word by word)
- he plays chess since he was a teenager
- the mental stimulation he took of playing chess actually did improve his tennis game.
- he actually used to play chess before his matches against Mc Enroe, before he went on the court;)
- "Mental" energy in tennis is very important. Playing chess is the perfect way to brace your brain for stress.

I see. From what he says, indeed, chess seems to have been also an anxiety-reducing activity. I suppose it was a relaxation technique for him, assuming he was anxious in the first place.


Everybody has his own way to handle pressure and so the methods to keep the composure are very different.
Julia had at times her notebook of the coach`s advice with her and read them during the breaks although she already knew the content. She used it somehow like chill pill.:)
I guess, Becker`s chess playing was also an important part of the preparation for a match, and building up mental strength overall. Not just for killing time before the match:lol:

:lol: I remember the notebook. And it really worked against Safarova. Or maybe she just was luckier after that :lol:



I mentioned that, not Becker.

So they interviewed you too? :lol:

joy division
Dec 8th, 2011, 12:05 PM
Hm, I heard that before about Federer (I think at ATP WTF :lol:). So he was the one who said it :) Anyway, in what sense was then Becker less athletic? He was slow? I thought you were talking about his aspect and Federer doesn't look athletic either, but he actually is. He has strength, speed, endurance... you name it :)

Becker was a little clumsy in motion at times and everything else but a model athlete, but he made the best of it.
Not to get me wrong he, Becker didn`t say that Federer plays chess in that interview, but he said that he moves mentally like a good chess player on the court.


He was very anxious, too, long ago, from what I heard. He started playing chess after he got rid of that anxiety, but you can still see it sometimes even now (e.g., USO). I think Julia could be a chess player too, her game tends to be smart and maybe she'll be able to play her chess soon. But, of course, in the athleticism department she is far from Federer. She's working on it though :)

Provided she recognizes that she also needs to work on her "consistency problem" in another way than working hard physically - playing chess might be very helpful, but it must not be chess for her.
Some people have an aversion for going this kind of conscious and intellectual way.
It also could be even some kind of relaxation exercises or something like a ritual before the match or whatever.:shrug:


So they interviewed you too? :lol:

Yeah, they called me right before they published the interview and asked for release.:lol::bs:

Skoo
Dec 8th, 2011, 05:57 PM
Becker was a little clumsy in motion at times and everything else but a model athlete, but he made the best of it.
Not to get me wrong he, Becker didn`t say that Federer plays chess in that interview, but he said that he moves mentally like a good chess player on the court.

I see. So he was a couch potato who happened to be one of the GOATs (11th, according to a very complicated study) :lol:

Yes, I understood what he meant and that's the way I heard it before. Federer plays chess and he's a brainless ball basher on court :lol:



Provided she recognizes that she also needs to work on her "consistency problem" in another way than working hard physically - playing chess might be very helpful, but it must not be chess for her.
Some people have an aversion for going this kind of conscious and intellectual way.
It also could be even some kind of relaxation exercises or something like a ritual before the match or whatever.:shrug:

She can play Mau Mau before a match :lol: But, you know, I haven't given up on the hypothesis on fatigue and everything else. Actually, I was kinda of giving up on it, but then Banditoo told us about that interview and I saw Djokovic at WTF and he was playing pretty much like her. You couldn't see that he was exhausted or in pain or whatever, you could only see a lot of stupid mistakes and some great points, i.e., inconsistency. Nadal's weightless shots might also resemble her shots in the "lazy" moments.

And even if that isn't her main problem, she seems to believe it is and if she solves it, she will gain confidence. So I think she is doing the right thing. I just hope she will not look like Petko soon :lol:

joy division
Dec 8th, 2011, 08:29 PM
I see. So he was a couch potato who happened to be one of the GOATs (11th, according to a very complicated study) :lol:

He prevented to become a couch potato in the cleaning rooms of several hotels all over the world and - that also brought him a lot of relaxation. This one of his real secret of success.;):lol:


She can play Mau Mau before a match :lol: But, you know, I haven't given up on the hypothesis on fatigue and everything else. Actually, I was kinda of giving up on it, but then Banditoo told us about that interview and I saw Djokovic at WTF and he was playing pretty much like her. You couldn't see that he was exhausted or in pain or whatever, you could only see a lot of stupid mistakes and some great points, i.e., inconsistency. Nadal's weightless shots might also resemble her shots in the "lazy" moments.

And even if that isn't her main problem, she seems to believe it is and if she solves it, she will gain confidence. So I think she is doing the right thing. I just hope she will not look like Petko soon :lol:

Mau Mau won`t help her, I fear.:D
I`m not sure about fatigue. Overall she`s a healthy and ambitious young lady and imo has become a pretty good athlete.
But you have to know how to use your fitness and playing abilities in the matches against Top Players.
Her way to play and how she paces herself looks not very smart at times and can be very exhausting therefore.
There is the question when and why "fatigue" appears. Just for physical reasons or is there another context.
Anyway, in consequence of these experiences she has chosen the "working even harder" way and as you say she also can get on the right path by doing that.
But I think it`s a little bit too one-sided and can take away the fun that is needed to play this sport. You mentioned similar thoughts at other occasions.
Hopefully the team and herself can find the right balance and it won`t end in a kind of Sisyphos drama:lol:.

Skoo
Dec 8th, 2011, 09:50 PM
He prevented to become a couch potato in the cleaning rooms of several hotels all over the world and - that also brought him a lot of relaxation. This one of his real secret of success.;):lol:

This is kind of ambiguous. What is a cleaning room? Google doesn't help. If you would have said only hotel rooms it would have been less ambiguous :lol:


Mau Mau won`t help her, I fear.:D
I`m not sure about fatigue. Overall she`s a healthy and ambitious young lady and imo has become a pretty good athlete.
But you have to know how to use your fitness and playing abilities in the matches against Top Players.
Her way to play and how she paces herself looks not very smart at times and can be very exhausting therefore.
There is the question when and why "fatigue" appears. Just for physical reasons or is there another context.
Anyway, in consequence of these experiences she has chosen the "working even harder" way and as you say she also can get on the right path by doing that.
But I think it`s a little bit too one-sided and can take away the fun that is needed to play this sport. You mentioned similar thoughts at other occasions.
Hopefully the team and herself can find the right balance and it won`t end in a kind of Sisyphos drama:lol:.

She's not quite healthy and strong/fit, it seems. Fatigue, understandable, at Madrid, illness at RG, illness, fatigue, pills at Bad Gastein, back problems at USO (and maybe in the previous tournaments), illness before Tokyo (as she said in that interview) and this might not be all :)

Of course, she is ambitious. Or is she? Well, probably, but also with a good deal of modesty, as you can remember, which produces phrases like "I've never got past the third round" instead of "I have to get past the third round now". But then again, she probably thinks the latter--no need to say it :)

IDK much about using your abilities and fitness in a smart way, so I will have to take your word on that. Still, do you think Federer, Nadal, Djokovic use them wisely? They're almost always giving 100%, from what I can tell, but they afford to do that. I think Julia doesn't and maybe (of course, only maybe) that is why she can't confirm a break or generally can't win a match after some promising moments.

Good question about where the fatigue comes from. If I were to play a game against Vika, I would be exhausted and it would have a pure bodily cause :lol: But you are right, anxiety can induce a good deal of fatigue too and it can also be harmful to your immune system and cause some illnesses and, therefore, even teeth problem (Bad Gastein) :) On the other hand, poor fitness can cause fatigue and have a negative impact on your cognitive skills (there are some studies which show that your self-control will drop if your blood sugar level drops; Julia did complain about not having patience). Even more, you can have both poor fitness and anxiety and you're pretty much screwed. Anyway, I think we will never know what is the true cause and that is good, because we can keep talking this way :lol:

Yes, that kind of work might resemble the kind of work a nerd does when trying to remember everything word by word, instead of understanding what she's learning. And, indeed, that does take away all the fun, as were my similar thoughts :) But then again, it is very different. I suppose it is not quite easy to have fun in this sport if you're ambitious. The way I see it, you can have fun only if you have a lot of success, little success, or if you just don't care much. Petko seems to have a lot of fun, right? But that is just off the court. She also is one of the hardest working girls. The tons of errors she was making last year might have been reduced mainly because of that hard work.

joy division
Dec 8th, 2011, 11:19 PM
This is kind of ambiguous. What is a cleaning room? Google doesn't help. If you would have said only hotel rooms it would have been less ambiguous :lol:

I thought in my ignorance "cleaning room" could be right. Sorry, it went wrong.
The dictionary tells me it`s "broom closet", but definitely not hotel room.:lol:


She's not quite healthy and strong/fit, it seems. Fatigue, understandable, at Madrid, illness at RG, illness, fatigue, pills at Bad Gastein, back problems at USO (and maybe in the previous tournaments), illness before Tokyo (as she said in that interview) and this might not be all :)

She`s not perfectly healthy, that`s true, but who on earth is it.:shrug:
Significantly hurt I saw her only once in the past season against Peng at the US Open.
It`s harder to say when she actually affected in her performance by being completely exhausted. The match against Azarenka at Madrid comes in my mind.
On the long term those antibiotics could seriously weaken her health and immune system, but that`s not necessarily the case.


Of course, she is ambitious. Or is she? Well, probably, but also with a good deal of modesty, as you can remember, which produces phrases like "I've never got past the third round" instead of "I have to get past the third round now". But then again, she probably thinks the latter--no need to say it :)

I`d say she is ambitious about working hard in practice and she does this work to be successful on the court in the end. Being a tennis player is her all and everything right now in life.
Her modesty somehow is antagonistic here at the same time, because sometimes you probably have to set your sights higher to inspire yourself in the sense of being ambitious. Idk what she really thinks about her aims, in the public she completely avoids those kind of ambitious statements.
That`s a very interesting question and your argument is reasonable.


IDK much about using your abilities and fitness in a smart way, so I will have to take your word on that. Still, do you think Federer, Nadal, Djokovic use them wisely? They're almost always giving 100%, from what I can tell, but they afford to do that. I think Julia doesn't and maybe (of course, only maybe) that is why she can't confirm a break or generally can't win a match after some promising moments.

The players you mention are able to focus on their game and to be successful nothing else, whatever happens.
You hardly see them discussing with linesmen or doing other irrelevant things. Djokovic does it at times but it doesn`t affect his performance, he uses it to relax.
In the sense of the success they can change tactics and intensity in a match and even let pass by a set for saving some energy to be right there in the beginning of the following set. That`s a main part of the game. In this concern Julia does not always move very well. I called it being smart, that is possibly not the best expression here.


Good question about where the fatigue comes from. If I were to play a game against Vika, I would be exhausted and it would have a pure bodily cause :lol: But you are right, anxiety can induce a good deal of fatigue too and it can also be harmful to your immune system and cause some illnesses and, therefore, even teeth problem (Bad Gastein) :) On the other hand, poor fitness can cause fatigue and have a negative impact on your cognitive skills (there are some studies which show that your self-control will drop if your blood sugar level drops; Julia did complain about not having patience). Even more, you can have both poor fitness and anxiety and you're pretty much screwed. Anyway, I think we will never know what is the true cause and that is good, because we can keep talking this way :lol:

Yes, that kind of work might resemble the kind of work a nerd does when trying to remember everything word by word, instead of understanding what she's learning. And, indeed, that does take away all the fun, as were my similar thoughts :) But then again, it is very different. I suppose it is not quite easy to have fun in this sport if you're ambitious. The way I see it, you can have fun only if you have a lot of success, little success, or if you just don't care much. Petko seems to have a lot of fun, right? But that is just off the court. She also is one of the hardest working girls. The tons of errors she was making last year might have been reduced mainly because of that hard work.

Valuable thoughts again but I have to leave now and the discussion won`t end tonight.:wavey:

Vikapower
Dec 9th, 2011, 12:42 AM
Provided she recognizes that she also needs to work on her "consistency problem" in another way than working hard physically - playing chess might be very helpful, but it must not be chess for her.
Some people have an aversion for going this kind of conscious and intellectual way.
It also could be even some kind of relaxation exercises or something like a ritual before the match or whatever.:shrug:

Yes, both are important... as I said chess is a mind game and it does bring physiological and mind related advantages...

As you said it relaxes pretty much, it also distracts a lot... it's complicated to play a chess game if you're not fully focused on what you're doing in that sense it can prevent Julia from wandering too much on the match she's about to play...

Mind related advantages there are a lot... using the correct shot at the right moment, attacking when necessary and not wasting useless munitions = discipline, controlling the center, (just like tennis when you search to control your fore-court)...

Just like in chess, placing your most important shots the right place as a game plan... in Julia's case, let's suppose her serve is the pawn, then she has to hit it effectively so that she can consistently get her forehand that's her bread an butter yet, she can not use the pawn if the bishop is in her way so in that sense she has to discipline herself into a strategy so that her forehand will be consistently aggressive...

In specific last case it would be, pass a good amount of first serves and as aggressively as possible so that as the white team she keeps her 1 shot more advantage in all the exchange.

I mean tennis is a game of chess... for example when your opponent hits a big serve you're on the defense, that makes you one shot behind you have to recuperate it by all means so that you don't be late for the rest of the exchange or it's over...

Compare this to chess when you are the black team and where you have to be running behind the white team since they're opening first. You start from one shot behind, then 2 if you don't recuperate the first and then 3, it's over... it's the same... and chess can really be a great benefit for anybody and not only just Julia.

Chess is also a lot about anticipation for the most part, guessing what the opponent is attempting to and you have to cover all the aspects of his strategies...

In tennis, chess is not difficult to re-interpret but you'd be improvising a lot... but if a player knows that 85% of balls are going cross-court, then 50 to 60% of times she will anticipate on that side...

The advantage with tennis unlike chess is that you can know in advance what the opponent likes or likes not to do with video tapes etc... for example, unlike the 85% of girls, Jankovic starts most of her points down the line... note, this doesn't work all the time since if a top player plays the 300th. in the world then she'd have to be kind of like in impro-mode

Now, the difficulty is to find yourself there from the moment you see what you know from the tapes will happen to hit the right shot... chess will not help Julia to move to the ball more efficiently but it can definitively accelerate the process in the brain so that she decides even 0.0003 milliseconds earlier than before where the ball is going at.

Vikapower
Dec 9th, 2011, 12:50 AM
Oh, I see, so I was plain wrong about his physical condition :) Still, would you say Federer is athletic? What about Serena? They don't look athletic to me, but they still have a lot of endurance and Federer had barely any injuries. Maybe Becker is a tricky one too? :)

Serena had periods where she's was very unfit... in these recent times she looks quite athletic... as for her endurance I will put my reserve on that lol.

To your question, Federer is athletic and his lack of injuries are simply just IMO related to his style of tennis... his style is non taxing to body and he doesn't rely that much on his physique like Nadal or Djokovic...

Federer is not an athlete in the sense of having a very powerful body. Imo, that`s not necessarily needed in tennis.
He can move very quick and has a outstanding qualities in his strokes.
Becker says about him in the interview-
"he is the best "chess player" of the Top guys. He anticipates the right way, tries to be one step ahead of his opponents and always concentrates on his own strategy and tactic."

Well that's right... Julia doesn't have a powerful body herself you know in the sense of Serena for example but her technique is practically clean with excellent timing and she's able to get lots of power on the ball.

:lol: She's not Petra Kvitova's effortlessness kind of like Federer like but she's alright herself.

She's not quite healthy and strong/fit, it seems. Fatigue, understandable, at Madrid, illness at RG, illness, fatigue, pills at Bad Gastein, back problems at USO (and maybe in the previous tournaments), illness before Tokyo (as she said in that interview) and this might not be all :)

Well I'll disagree with this because it'd be a denial to the fact that contrary to us, she travels a lot and all around the world. She faces different types of climates all the time so the chances of illness are much stronger than a person who has lived like 24 years in the Caribbean.

As Joy division said, no athlete anyways is healthy. With all the products they take to accelerate healing, all the products they take to attenuate pain etc... there's in no ways if you're a high professional to be healthy in the most full definition of the word...

Last, it's not because you eat less endangering food that you're more fit than another... most foods nowadays are modified with products that sometimes do not benefit the health so the best would stay without eating and even without eating the pollution, the cigarettes of people who smoke whilst you are sober in that specific aspect... etc... etc...

So the last best would be to just not live supporting anyways your argument. :lol:

IDK much about using your abilities and fitness in a smart way, so I will have to take your word on that. Still, do you think Federer, Nadal, Djokovic use them wisely? They're almost always giving 100%, from what I can tell, but they afford to do that. I think Julia doesn't and maybe (of course, only maybe) that is why she can't confirm a break or generally can't win a match after some promising moments.

Well there's a distinction to make between will and capital... these roughly came into my mind like that to describe the following... Julia gives 100% or close all the time but in the capital she possesses, she doesn't always have the ability to transpose that will on the tennis courts...

It's important to study Julia's capital to answer this question (ha, ha I should have perhaps not used the word capital)... her style of game, her technical or physical limitations etc...

By understanding these then you can understand that sometimes even when Julia wants it, certain factors related to her game, style of play etc... makes it very complicated at times... a contrario, Federer, Nadal etc... have so much in there's that they know they can invest a lot all the time and get double whilst Julia is in the situation where she sometimes wants to invest but doesn't have the necessary to do so... where does she find the rest of the money ?

A capital constantly grows, unless in economical crisis etc... that's why the tennis players train for this... then Julia just needs to find more sources of income so that she can invest more and by logic win more than what she would in the past... better endurance, better movements = better offense, more possibilities to be etc... etc...

Skoo
Dec 9th, 2011, 06:15 PM
I thought in my ignorance "cleaning room" could be right. Sorry, it went wrong.
The dictionary tells me it`s "broom closet", but definitely not hotel room.:lol:

So he was a janitor? :)


She`s not perfectly healthy, that`s true, but who on earth is it.:shrug:
Significantly hurt I saw her only once in the past season against Peng at the US Open.
It`s harder to say when she actually affected in her performance by being completely exhausted. The match against Azarenka at Madrid comes in my mind.
On the long term those antibiotics could seriously weaken her health and immune system, but that`s not necessarily the case.

Well I'll disagree with this because it'd be a denial to the fact that contrary to us, she travels a lot and all around the world. She faces different types of climates all the time so the chances of illness are much stronger than a person who has lived like 24 years in the Caribbean.

As Joy division said, no athlete anyways is healthy. With all the products they take to accelerate healing, all the products they take to attenuate pain etc... there's in no ways if you're a high professional to be healthy in the most full definition of the word...

Last, it's not because you eat less endangering food that you're more fit than another... most foods nowadays are modified with products that sometimes do not benefit the health so the best would stay without eating and even without eating the pollution, the cigarettes of people who smoke whilst you are sober in that specific aspect... etc... etc...

Well, nobody is perfectly healthy, but you don't get so many complaints from the top players (at least top 10) as you get from her. Vika had those several injuries, but she could easily win 2-3 tournaments in a row and she's fresh at the end of the week. I don't think it was possible for Julia to win two in a row this year, given that every opponent was in good shape. Most of the top players have more endurance than her, less "illness", no chronic back pain, they're not always receiving treatment... they simply are stronger and healthier in the same rough conditions :shrug:

And don't worry about medicines, bad additives, pollution, etc. The leading cause of death is too much energy, so the main thing to worry is your daily calories intake and, especially if you're an athlete, to get a right amount of the basic nutrients :)


I`d say she is ambitious about working hard in practice and she does this work to be successful on the court in the end. Being a tennis player is her all and everything right now in life.
Her modesty somehow is antagonistic here at the same time, because sometimes you probably have to set your sights higher to inspire yourself in the sense of being ambitious. Idk what she really thinks about her aims, in the public she completely avoids those kind of ambitious statements.
That`s a very interesting question and your argument is reasonable.

Yeah, we cannot know, but she probably just prepares her fans (and perhaps herself) for a potential failure with her humble statements, while, of course, she would like to win more :)



The players you mention are able to focus on their game and to be successful nothing else, whatever happens.
You hardly see them discussing with linesmen or doing other irrelevant things. Djokovic does it at times but it doesn`t affect his performance, he uses it to relax.
In the sense of the success they can change tactics and intensity in a match and even let pass by a set for saving some energy to be right there in the beginning of the following set. That`s a main part of the game. In this concern Julia does not always move very well. I called it being smart, that is possibly not the best expression here.

Of course, they can concentrate much better than Julia on their game, but I rarely see them changing intensity, they keep it high from the beginning until the end. Or maybe it's too subtle for me to recognize :) However, Vikapower's economic metaphor seems to indicate he shares my view :)

joy division
Dec 9th, 2011, 09:33 PM
Yes, both are important... as I said chess is a mind game and it does bring physiological and mind related advantages...

As you said it relaxes pretty much, it also distracts a lot... it's complicated to play a chess game if you're not fully focused on what you're doing in that sense it can prevent Julia from wandering too much on the match she's about to play...

Mind related advantages there are a lot... using the correct shot at the right moment, attacking when necessary and not wasting useless munitions = discipline, controlling the center, (just like tennis when you search to control your fore-court)...

Just like in chess, placing your most important shots the right place as a game plan... in Julia's case, let's suppose her serve is the pawn, then she has to hit it effectively so that she can consistently get her forehand that's her bread an butter yet, she can not use the pawn if the bishop is in her way so in that sense she has to discipline herself into a strategy so that her forehand will be consistently aggressive...

In specific last case it would be, pass a good amount of first serves and as aggressively as possible so that as the white team she keeps her 1 shot more advantage in all the exchange.

I mean tennis is a game of chess... for example when your opponent hits a big serve you're on the defense, that makes you one shot behind you have to recuperate it by all means so that you don't be late for the rest of the exchange or it's over...

Compare this to chess when you are the black team and where you have to be running behind the white team since they're opening first. You start from one shot behind, then 2 if you don't recuperate the first and then 3, it's over... it's the same... and chess can really be a great benefit for anybody and not only just Julia.

Chess is also a lot about anticipation for the most part, guessing what the opponent is attempting to and you have to cover all the aspects of his strategies...

In tennis, chess is not difficult to re-interpret but you'd be improvising a lot... but if a player knows that 85% of balls are going cross-court, then 50 to 60% of times she will anticipate on that side...

The advantage with tennis unlike chess is that you can know in advance what the opponent likes or likes not to do with video tapes etc... for example, unlike the 85% of girls, Jankovic starts most of her points down the line... note, this doesn't work all the time since if a top player plays the 300th. in the world then she'd have to be kind of like in impro-mode

Now, the difficulty is to find yourself there from the moment you see what you know from the tapes will happen to hit the right shot... chess will not help Julia to move to the ball more efficiently but it can definitively accelerate the process in the brain so that she decides even 0.0003 milliseconds earlier than before where the ball is going at.

You worked this out perfectly. Very good post :hatoff:

Vikapower
Dec 10th, 2011, 12:49 AM
Well, nobody is perfectly healthy, but you don't get so many complaints from the top players (at least top 10) as you get from her.

Stating this though is denying that everyone is physiologically different from one another... each bodies react differently to external aggression... I don't find Julia has been more ill or less ill than the average on tour or perhaps my perception is different.

Vika had those several injuries, but she could easily win 2-3 tournaments in a row and she's fresh at the end of the week. I don't think it was possible for Julia to win two in a row this year, given that every opponent was in good shape.

:lol: I don't know if Vika is a good example because she's part of the players that can not play a lot, in the sense of Wozniacki. Victoria very often gets injured... this year she had a good clay season but last year she was plagued with injuries.

Most of the top players have more endurance than her, less "illness", no chronic back pain, they're not always receiving treatment... they simply are stronger and healthier in the same rough conditions :shrug:

Well you're stating the obvious lol, top players are top players because they're better in every or most department than the others otherwise I guess they wouldn't be where they are... for Julia to aspire being a top player, she simply just has to go through all they also went through which is hard work but not only more work, double, triple more work than what the top 50 would...

Physique, fitness etc... doesn't just come by magic... Julia's ball-striking, talent... is there now she just needs to put more so that she can get better results or anyways those she desires.

And don't worry about medicines, bad additives, pollution, etc. The leading cause of death is too much energy, so the main thing to worry is your daily calories intake and, especially if you're an athlete, to get a right amount of the basic nutrients :)

Ok, well I don't think Julia has a bad nutrition but I'm not there when she eats... :lol:

Vikapower
Dec 10th, 2011, 01:04 AM
Of course, they can concentrate much better than Julia on their game, but I rarely see them changing intensity, they keep it high from the beginning until the end. Or maybe it's too subtle for me to recognize :) However, Vikapower's economic metaphor seems to indicate he shares my view :)

Well like I said, when you have the physical abilities to keep intensity then most probably you're going to keep it... I think it's wrong to say Julia doesn't want to maintain a high level... but there are so much factors...

In which her style of tennis, which is high risk, very unstable... I think Julia needs to find a solid base in her game so that she can always stand on... Nadal has a base in his game, Federer etc... when they playing bad they can rely on that base and build from there. When Julia's serve and FH aren's functioning, you can consider her to be lost (remember the match in Linz she lost)... I think Julia should start from her BH which is her most stable shot when things aren't all right, remember also the rally balls we spoke about which in Julia's case can be much better. In other she needs perhaps to stop being all black or white... some grey would help a lot.

Her mental, also physique plays a role... sometimes certain of Julia's limitations do play a role in her inabilities to keep a high level... we've often talked about her balance especially visible on the FH DTL or her wrist with which sometimes she catches the ball too late, these are things Julia needs to ameliorate...

Well I'm pretty sure she's doing so, we'll see.

But no top players are perfect themselves... unless perhaps Petra Kvitova who has all the arsenal except movement etc... but Vika has her FH/serve difficulties, Maria has her serve which hampers her game overall and sometimes unables her to maintain a high level, Wozniacki has her whole game overall (except the BH perhaps), Radwanksa has to resolve her lack of power etc... etc...

Dispeker
Dec 10th, 2011, 11:51 AM
In which her style of tennis, which is high risk, very unstable... I think Julia needs to find a solid base in her game so that she can always stand on... Nadal has a base in his game, Federer etc... when they playing bad they can rely on that base and build from there. When Julia's serve and FH aren's functioning, you can consider her to be lost (remember the match in Linz she lost)... I think Julia should start from her BH which is her most stable shot when things aren't all right, remember also the rally balls we spoke about which in Julia's case can be much better. In other she needs perhaps to stop being all black or white... some grey would help a lot.

This is definitely something she needs to develop. Some time ago Julia and Eva Pfaff already worked on this a bit- at Roland Garros she had this little book in which she wrote down all the strokes that always work when things are going badly. I think she used it in her match against Safarova and it obviously helped her. After the French, however, she didn't use it anymore, don't know why though. Anyway, this book might help her in some crucial situations, but in the longterm Julia needs that solid base in her game she can always rely on.

we've often talked about her balance especially visible on the FH DTL or her wrist with which sometimes she catches the ball too late, these are things Julia needs to ameliorate...

They may have worked on things like this over the last couple of weeks. As Julia mentioned in the interview, she did nothing else so far than practising special drills.

Skoo
Dec 10th, 2011, 01:26 PM
Stating this though is denying that everyone is physiologically different from one another... each bodies react differently to external aggression... I don't find Julia has been more ill or less ill than the average on tour or perhaps my perception is different.

It is not denying that, it is exactly pointing out that Julia reacts different from most of the top 10 players. We cannot know about the tour average, but we can compare with those who win most and who are able to play many matches, which Julia probably can't. "I have to get fit to be able to play 5 tough matches a week". Word! :lol:

The clay streak was the longest of her career, but it cost her retirement from Rome and perhaps the sickness at RG. And, who knows, perhaps a lot of the awkward losses. Maybe her rather sad (and beautiful!) expression in that match against Vika was exactly because her lower back problems were reoccurring.



:lol: I don't know if Vika is a good example because she's part of the players that can not play a lot, in the sense of Wozniacki. Victoria very often gets injured... this year she had a good clay season but last year she was plagued with injuries.

She retired six times this year, right? That is quite a lot. But I was saying that, if she doesn't get a (fast-recovering) injury, she can play a lot of matches and she doesn't look tired at the end of the week.



Well you're stating the obvious lol, top players are top players because they're better in every or most department than the others otherwise I guess they wouldn't be where they are... for Julia to aspire being a top player, she simply just has to go through all they also went through which is hard work but not only more work, double, triple more work than what the top 50 would...

Physique, fitness etc... doesn't just come by magic... Julia's ball-striking, talent... is there now she just needs to put more so that she can get better results or anyways those she desires.

The point was that there is a chance that the thing which separates Julia the most from a top 10 player is not the "mental fitness", but the good ol' biomechanical one. And, of course, she is doing that hard work you mention, I just hope she will succeed in becoming fitter and that this will really help her become more consistent. There are, I suppose, quite a lot of players who didn't.



Ok, well I don't think Julia has a bad nutrition but I'm not there when she eats... :lol:

Why, she's gross? You can't stand watching her eat? :lol:


Well like I said, when you have the physical abilities to keep intensity then most probably you're going to keep it... I think it's wrong to say Julia doesn't want to maintain a high level... but there are so much factors...

Certainly, who said she doesn't want to keep it high? :shrug:


This is definitely something she needs to develop. Some time ago Julia and Eva Pfaff already worked on this a bit- at Roland Garros she had this little book in which she wrote down all the strokes that always work when things are going badly. I think she used it in her match against Safarova and it obviously helped her. After the French, however, she didn't use it anymore, don't know why though. Anyway, this book might help her in some crucial situations, but in the longterm Julia needs that solid base in her game she can always rely on.

On every page of the notebook was written: be more consistent. But she realized she needs to get fitter and stopped using it :lol:

Vikapower
Dec 10th, 2011, 06:29 PM
It is not denying that, it is exactly pointing out that Julia reacts different from most of the top 10 players. We cannot know about the tour average, but we can compare with those who win most and who are able to play many matches, which Julia probably can't. "I have to get fit to be able to play 5 tough matches a week". Word! :lol:

:D Well this could be seen from this angle too (the first phrase)... anyways Julia is working on her fitness to be a top player and this is exactly what she has to do... hopefully it'll will bring the results in 2012...

The clay streak was the longest of her career, but it cost her retirement from Rome and perhaps the sickness at RG. And, who knows, perhaps a lot of the awkward losses. Maybe her rather sad (and beautiful!) expression in that match against Vika was exactly because her lower back problems were reoccurring.

Yes but I wouldn't take this much into account, Julia's agenda pre-clay and clay self wasn't the same... so I can understand that her organism didn't adapt at once... Julia before this season was barely performing this efficiently, just have a look at her results start 2010...

Now she has tasted some part of the top and with that new found experience knows exactly or almost what to do so that she can be better up there...

She retired six times this year, right? That is quite a lot. But I was saying that, if she doesn't get a (fast-recovering) injury, she can play a lot of matches and she doesn't look tired at the end of the week.

Yes, I understand what you mean... :lol: that said Julia always has that kind of nonchalant attitude on court... it participates at least in her elegance. :D

The point was that there is a chance that the thing which separates Julia the most from a top 10 player is not the "mental fitness", but the good ol' biomechanical one. And, of course, she is doing that hard work you mention, I just hope she will succeed in becoming fitter and that this will really help her become more consistent. There are, I suppose, quite a lot of players who didn't.

We agree on that... I think working in these aspects will reinforce her consistency... because finally Julia's inconsistency is just due to lack of precision in her game and this overall (footwork, game plan etc...) -- it's subtle but sufficiently to incapacitate her to be efficient on a longer period.

Julia kinds of reminds me Maria Sharapova and her serve/DFs... it's really rattling mentally when you're trying to give your best and just every time there's that one stupid shot that pulls down what you try to build... Maria is so strong in her head that she's able to do with it and beat the players she has to beat... Julia a contrario often it pulls her down for good, remember the match against Jie in the 3rd...

This returns back then again to having a base on which you can really... Maria is a shot-maker like Julia but at least she has an in between game that she can rely on for a moment until she finds the solution for the A game... Julia there's no rally balls, no patience (match in Linz for example)... but I guess that's what we love her all for. :hearts:

Why, she's gross? You can't stand watching her eat? :lol:

Uhm, is there a artistry in watching someone eat overall ? :D I'm not too much into abstract art. :lol:

Certainly, who said she doesn't want to keep it high? :shrug:

I was speaking overall.

joy division
Dec 10th, 2011, 06:35 PM
So he was a janitor? :)

No, he just loved to assist cleaning women at work in a very intensive way.;)


Yeah, we cannot know, but she probably just prepares her fans (and perhaps herself) for a potential failure with her humble statements, while, of course, she would like to win more :)

You provide here that she already is deeper affected and pretty desperate about this matter.
But corresponding to her nature she actually never talks big and won`t do it, even when she should be a real Top player one day.
So I wouldn`t go so far here. Imo her statements in this concern are mostly motivated in the sense of - there`s no need to lean out of the window. What counts is on the court. So why should I do it ?-
In general her caution in statements indicates the intention, not to get off, to stay calm and keeping a clear mind in everything she does.
This attitude is not wrong per se and ,ideally, can be a big strength if she was be able to transpose it on court in pressure situations.
Similarly it`s with ambition. These close and apparently unnecessary losses didn`t really affect her in her ambition going to the practice court the next day being in a good spirit and to work hard again.
But we have another aspect here, there are 2 sides of the same coin.
In the context with stress and also physical effort those features somehow change.
You could say that her ambition turns into impatience and anxiety, and her modesty makes her desperate, and in consequence of that the matches "slip away" as she mentions at times. She somehow stands in her own way.
What her leads in such a shape, physical or other reasons we discuss here all the time.
We are not really close to her, and therefore it`s all speculation.
I guess the main point is how she deals with these experiences, Imo, she seeks refuge in working hard and ignores other aspects, because she never experienced them. It`s also a question about the team and what they do in this matter.
Anyway, she actually can`t do something wrong by working hard and that might be the best way for her.



Of course, they can concentrate much better than Julia on their game, but I rarely see them changing intensity, they keep it high from the beginning until the end. Or maybe it's too subtle for me to recognize :) However, Vikapower's economic metaphor seems to indicate he shares my view :)

Vikapower`s metaphor is a really good, although some aspects are left out.
I re-watched her match against Stosur at Stuttgart, posted today by Desuetude. It shows not the whole match, but I saw it live on TV, - it was a brilliant match from both players.
She was moving very well and played some fantastic balls there, for instance the stop at set point in the first.
Many other shots on the FH and BH side were outstanding in accuracy and speed.
To come back to Vikapower`s metapher, I`d say, that she has the money, but she forgets at times where she has left it. Means she has a big game inside but she can`t access it.
The level in men`s tennis is very different.
In women`s tennis there`s much less money in circulation, therefore she will win some matches even if she doesn`t have a penny to her name.:lol:

Vikapower
Dec 10th, 2011, 06:39 PM
This is definitely something she needs to develop. Some time ago Julia and Eva Pfaff already worked on this a bit- at Roland Garros she had this little book in which she wrote down all the strokes that always work when things are going badly. I think she used it in her match against Safarova and it obviously helped her. After the French, however, she didn't use it anymore, don't know why though. Anyway, this book might help her in some crucial situations, but in the longterm Julia needs that solid base in her game she can always rely on.

Yes she does... basically it's there already, Julia's tennis at it's basic level is serve then take control with the FH... the thing is Julia's FH can at times be as mesmerizing as dysfunctional (??) and when this doesn't work for her then it's very complicated...

I've always said Julia's BH is by far the most stable shot in her game and this in my mind her most beautiful shot... :lol: nah, don't take me wrong I love her FH, the FH is the best shot in tennis for me but I'm really in admiration with her BH, the way she sets up etc...

Her FH she thinks she always has something to do something with it (it's her more offensive shot).



They may have worked on things like this over the last couple of weeks. As Julia mentioned in the interview, she did nothing else so far than practising special drills.

:) That's really good hear... I'm kind of impatient to see her progress, I'm sure she has... :lol: 3-4 weeks before off-season is over... that must be the shortest off-season I've experienced. :lol:

Vikapower
Dec 10th, 2011, 06:52 PM
Vikapower`s metaphor is a really good, although some aspects are left out.
I re-watched her match against Stosur at Stuttgart, posted today by Desuetude. It shows not the whole match, but I saw it live on TV, - it was a brilliant match from both players.
She was moving very well and played some fantastic balls there, for instance the stop at set point in the first.

Julia moves very well on clay, you can see she's a natural clay court player when she slides into the shots than most of the girls who slide after contact which makes waste a lot of time.

Julia's clay game has really developed during a year or so. I remember in RG 2010 versus Serena Williams where she was slipping all over the place because she often let that left or right foot get away from her which made her lose lots of time for the next shot. She always was late and Serena hits pretty hard.

Her movement on clay is pretty much flawless anyways considering what the other girls do propose. :lol:

Many other shots on the FH and BH side were outstanding in accuracy and speed

Well it's clay. :p No but definitively Julia has all the time to express her talent on a surface where she has time... on hard it's not easy for her especially on Decoturf (remember the match against Kirilenko :spit: )...

I think plexicushion is a surface that will really favorise Julia with Indian Wells and Miami. They are slow like hell (exeggeration) and I really hope she does well all there... this time no mistake by going to play some unknown clay tournament in [...] :rocker:

To come back to Vikapower`s metapher, I`d say, that she has the money, but she forgets at times where she has left it. Means she has a big game inside but she can`t access it.

:lol: Well she does access it at times (clay) but she really isn't Bill Gates... her money doesn't flow at will and she's not enough productive (inconsistent) to make it grow... :lol:

But the off season is there for that, to invest and with hard work the return on investment will always be high... that's all we can wish for Julia. :)

:lol: We do not want multiple heart-attacks, sweats, pains, blows again like last year... I'm sure Julia will answer our prays she often reads tennis forum to steal ideas from us. :D

Vikapower
Dec 19th, 2011, 04:23 PM
Chapter 49

Basic Concepts in Sports Biomechanics
Tommy Boone, PhD, MPH, FASEP, EPC and Larry Birnbaum, PhD, MA, EPC

Here you go : http://www.exercisephysiologists.com/BiomechanicalCONCEPTS/index.html

Skoo
Dec 19th, 2011, 04:36 PM
Well, thank you, but couldn't you have posted a link to the source? :)

Vikapower
Dec 19th, 2011, 04:43 PM
^^ :spit: In fact I couldn't find the source in question (I made a file of the artcile on my computer) --->> I looked back in the historic and found it however... :haha: I'll delete my posts and put. :hatoff:

EDIT : Good read, :lol: , it's pretty very much long but you should after this be able to explain anything like an expert. :hatoff:

Skoo
Dec 19th, 2011, 04:56 PM
^^ :spit: In fact I couldn't find the source in question (I made a file of the artcile on my computer) --->> I looked back in the historic and found it however... :haha: I'll delete my posts and put. :hatoff:

EDIT : Good read, :lol: , it's pretty very much long but you should after this be able to explain anything like an expert. :hatoff:

Good, I found it in the meantime anyway. I actually wanted to read a book that extends the subject (Tennis Science for Tennis Players). But this is just one of the thousands of the book I want/will want to read, but probably wouldn't. Anyway, if it written for tennis players, I can probably understand it, too :lol: It is written by that author that also wrote the article you give me with that "law" and the man seems to be able to make himself understood for non-physicists :)

However, I suppose you have to possess a lot of physics knowledge to be able to explain anything like an expert :)

Dispeker
Dec 20th, 2011, 02:11 PM
However, I suppose you have to possess a lot of physics knowledge to be able to explain anything like an expert :)

Definitely :) And knowledge of medical terminology helps as well. It took me a while till I figured out what the glenoid cavity is. But when you know all those terms it is a really informative text. ;)

Just noticed that you weren't referring to the text Vikapower posted - ah nevermind :drink:

Skoo
Dec 20th, 2011, 05:03 PM
Definitely :) And knowledge of medical terminology helps as well. It took me a while till I figured out what the glenoid cavity is. But when you know all those terms it is a really informative text. ;)

Just noticed that you weren't referring to the text Vikapower posted - ah nevermind :drink:

Good thing there's Google :lol: I know some anatomy and physiology, but only at a psychologist's level (mainly brain stuff). So I didn't know either that part :)

Yes, it was about explaining, not understanding that chapter :)

Vikapower
Dec 20th, 2011, 07:42 PM
:lol: You all are not obliged to read all (if it's that you all are speaking about)... just the section about serve...

What makes this long is that it's a general research on sports as a whole where there are swings...