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cooolconchita
Nov 4th, 2002, 01:32 PM
just wondering how the americans view them now, given the ups and downs they have had with the public:confused:

i am always disappointed with the crowds reaction to them. i was at wimbledon 2001 for venus' defence of her title against shinobu asagoe, and was astonished at how everyone cheered for the little japanese player, yet when vee played breathtaking shots, i seemed to be the only one clapping! :mad:

i don't know what it is, other champs get the respect (monica, lindsay, martina), and it can't be skin colour as chanda and lori mcneil are/were loved by us brits, there's just something there that leaves a sour taste in my mouth when watching the crowds of a williams match. i'm not the greatest fan in the world, but i think they carry themselves well on the court (esp. venus), and deserve a bit of respect, and frankly, some mad-ass fans whooping and cheering for them! :p

Williams Rulez
Nov 4th, 2002, 01:46 PM
Yeah, I've always wondered what they have done to deserve that treatment.

Helen Lawson
Nov 4th, 2002, 01:49 PM
I have seen them a number of times and the crowd has always been behind them, but this is obviously not always the case. But I think this "everyone hates them" routine is not entirely accurate.

I would like, however, to see more variety in Slam finals. Certainly we had many, many Graf-Seles, Graf-ASV, Martina-Chris finals, but those women played like they wanted to beat the crap out of the other player in those matchs, we had a lot of three setters and some excitement, some of the best Slam finals ever. So far, none of the Venus/Serena finals I would call one of the best Slam finals ever and they do not appear to want to beat the crap out of the other one, which is understandable. I guess it is just a personal preference. I wish they had more exciting finals against each other, or have one of them play someone else to see what would happen. Normally, I like Venus and Amelie about the same, but to me, Venus didn't look that great at the U.S. Open and I figured Serena would beat her easily, as she had the three other times before. At least Amelie I figured might get beaten easily like at Wimbledon, but maybe not. So, I was rooting for Amelie in that semifinal, it does not mean I am "sick" of Venus.

selesrules
Nov 4th, 2002, 01:50 PM
I also have matches from Seles before the stabbing, and they never cheered Monica. When someone is dominating the game, people cheer for the underdog.

Williams Rulez
Nov 4th, 2002, 01:54 PM
That's partly true... so they should cheer for Venus cause she ain't dominating no more... :p

calabar
Nov 4th, 2002, 01:56 PM
Coolconchita,

Skin colour has EVERYTHING to do with it. And I wish people would naively stop using Chanda and Lori and all the other black players as an example of racial acceptance. The fact is that Venus and Serena are different for ONE OBVIOUS REASON: THEY ARE WINNERS!. White will always embrace blacks who do not pose a threat to their dominance. The day Chanda statrs winning consistently, is the day the gloves come off. Racism is alive and "well" in every facet of life. That is the sad truth.

Calabar

cooolconchita
Nov 4th, 2002, 01:58 PM
correct williams rulez! lol
i'm not saying EVERYONE hates them - that is obvouisly not true, just by looking at the support they have at wtaworld. :p

how about this for a theory. they are sisters, and people find it hard to accept them as individuals, therefore fans always think of them as a double act, outnumbering the opponent!

"freshman psych rears it's ugly head again"
Clueless!!!!!

irma
Nov 4th, 2002, 01:59 PM
number 1's are never loved that much

selesrules
Nov 4th, 2002, 01:59 PM
well, most people kind of treat Venus & Serena as "the Williams sisters". Even though Serena dominated this year, Venus was by far the no.2 player. I mean everyone was predicting in those slams that it would be a "Williams vs Williams final", so they wouldn't cheer for Venus either because she was a favorite too. Actually they did cheer for Venus in the finals when she became the underdog to Serena (especially in the US Open).

irma
Nov 4th, 2002, 02:01 PM
"And I wish people would naively stop using Chanda and Lori and all the other black players as an example of racial acceptance"

I agree with that. when people say I like Rubin after saying something nasty about venus or serena. then I can't help getting suspicious!

selesrules
Nov 4th, 2002, 02:02 PM
For those who keep saying race, let me tell you something, the fact that Venus & Serena are black is ADDING to their popularity. People LOVE them more because they are black, I've never seen any players get bigger standing ovations such as before the 2001 US Open final, people are PROUD of them and because Serena & Venus are black, people treat them like princesses. When Hingis & Seles were on top, they were never treated as good as the Williams.

selesrules
Nov 4th, 2002, 02:05 PM
Heck the WIlliams are everywhere, they have more sponsors then any other players in history, they are cheered everywhere by everyone, yet some people complain. I don't know what they are expecting, for people to kiss their feet? (People already are!)

cooolconchita
Nov 4th, 2002, 02:07 PM
calabar

i noticed this bitterness WAY before they were at the top of their game. Venus' first match at wimbledon on court no1 against magdalena gryzbowska, there was massive buzz about venus, yet even then, there was something strange about the whole atmosphere. how can you say that chanda and lori aren't a threat to white players dominance???? :confused:
chanda has proven herself this year, and wimbledon 94, lori beat steffi, it was a fantastic atmosphere, there was a sense that something just HAPPENED out there!

selesrules
Nov 4th, 2002, 02:07 PM
and also zina garrisson, people always cheered for her against Monica, Steffi, Navratilova, etc.

cooolconchita
Nov 4th, 2002, 02:08 PM
seles rules - if you truly believe that the williams' get equal or more respect than the other players, then you are missing something. i watched the whole of new haven this year, and it was like vee was from bolivia or something!

calabar
Nov 4th, 2002, 02:14 PM
Coolconchita,

You can't be serious, regarding Chanda being a threat. Look she had a so-so year this year but come on! When the draw of a tournament is released, believe me, the players are interested in two things, which bracket are they in, AND which bracket Venus or Serena is in. No one gives a rat's azz which bracket Chanda is in. Look, don't get me wrong, I like Chanda, she comes across as a decent person although I don't know her (or anyone else on the WTA tour) personally, but she is not in the same class as either of the Sisters by a mile. No Chanda is not a threat to anyone the way the Sisters are and she will always be judged by a different standard......until she starts routinely win in big tournaments.

Cal.

Serena y Monica
Nov 4th, 2002, 02:27 PM
Calabar is right...I mean you are even begining to see it with Tiger. He was the first black(even if he doesn't like it) to win a major, so he was embraced. The crowds are now cooling towards him (even though he ran from his heritage). Watch him in a tourney these days and notice that he gets respectful applause but his opponents get roars.

Venus and Serena where not the first blacks to win in tennis, not only that but all of their predecessors were understated almost to the point that it was as if they didn't want anyone to notice that they were black... Serena and Venus burst on the scene brash and ethnic. They announced (in no uncertain terms) to Mr sports reporter and John Q Public "I'm here to win and I'm not straightening my hair, or attributing my hard work to luck, in order to make you feel good. I don't feel priveledged to stand in your radiance, I am your equal as a person and I believe I'm the best player every time I step on the court. Learn to deal or let your true colors shine through...you don't effect me" so naturally they are reviled by those who don't believe that they are in fact their equals. In the end they will have maintained their dignity and respect.

CoryAnnAvants#1
Nov 4th, 2002, 02:41 PM
The difference between V and S and the past black players is that they acted in a way that was designed not to cause controversy and uproar. They spoke well, were very polite in their press conferences, gave players credit, etc; Venus and Serena do that now, but in the beginning they were black AND outspoken. Nobody liked it when Hingis talked about having no rivals or how her matches were too easy. People REALLY didn't like it when two black girls said this, especially when they didn't have major tournament titles for the most part to back it up. Even though they are gracious champions now, well, you only get one chance to make a first impression and that's the one they made.

CoryAnnAvants#1
Nov 4th, 2002, 02:42 PM
Serena y Monica, you beat me to my point;) :(

Serendy Willick
Nov 4th, 2002, 02:51 PM
Its a damn shame that the sisters do not get the respect they deserve. They constantly have to prove themselves and their talent while the likes of Hingis and Capriati dont. I think what separates them from McNeil, Rubin, and Garrison (1. They have gone farther than anyone has gone. Rubin, McNeil, and Garrison werent consistantly trashing the likes of Steffi, Monica and Aranxta like the Willis do their opponents.(2. They refuse to kiss ass, they know what they can do and they have no problem with it.

selesrules
Nov 4th, 2002, 02:51 PM
You guys always talk about Venus & Serena, but about Michael Jordan? Muhammed Ali? or stars Oprah Winfrey? Whitney Houston? All these black athletes/stars are loved worldwide and are even bigger then any other white stars and all these black people also dominated their fields. You can't blame racism all-the time, because just like with white people, some stars are more popular then others regardless of race. Maybe Venus & Serena (especially in the beginning) had a first impression of being arrogant and even though they changed now that impression stayed with them. I'm sure if Oprah came in the beginning and acted like "I'm the best", she wouldn't be as popular, and others like yourselves would blame it on race :rolleyes:

Helen Lawson
Nov 4th, 2002, 02:55 PM
How do they constantly have to prove themselves and their talent and Hingis and Capriati don't? I don't get that one at all.

Uxobi
Nov 4th, 2002, 02:57 PM
Michael Jordan, Ali, Oprah and Whitney still receive hate mail from all over the world...just because of their race. This will never change. No African American is exempt from the ignorance. It doesn't matter how high they rise, they will always be judged by the color of their skin.

servenrichie
Nov 4th, 2002, 03:00 PM
Bradshaw#1, you make good points. Why then was the brash Hingis accepted and people who did not just penned it down as teenage brashness, but Venus and Serena???

selesrules
Nov 4th, 2002, 03:01 PM
Uxobi, there will ALWAYS be racism, there's always some ignorants out there & exceptions. I'm just talking that in general black celebrities are LOVED (including Venus & Serena).

servenrichie
Nov 4th, 2002, 03:02 PM
Selesrules, i dont want to insult you, but how old are you?

selesrules
Nov 4th, 2002, 03:05 PM
24. How old are you?

selesrules
Nov 4th, 2002, 03:09 PM
As for Hingis, when she was booed in Paris 99, I bet if she was black then people would have blamed it on racism. Yes, racism exists and always will, but the HUGE majority of people 99% are not racist and black atheltes/stars are loved just like everyone else.

Uxobi
Nov 4th, 2002, 03:13 PM
To answer the original question, No, all American's are not tired of Venus and Serena. Although everywhere you turn, it's all about the Williams' Family when it comes to the tennis world. Their popularity has soared. I mean, come on....They were the cover story of Time magazine. I'm sure many fans of the other tennis stars and even the other players resent their popularity and the opinion that they "are the one's to beat". Even some tennis players have commented that when "they" are not around, "someone else" has a chance to win.

Serendy Willick
Nov 4th, 2002, 03:16 PM
Hingis was booed because she acted very very disrepectful and was a complete brat. Her behavior at the 99 FO final was atrocious.

Uxobi
Nov 4th, 2002, 03:19 PM
I agree, Hingis was booed because she behaved like a #1 a-hole. Anyone who behaved in such a disrespectful manner would have been booed off the court. Even ___________, and she is one of the most respected players on the WTA tour.

servenrichie
Nov 4th, 2002, 03:23 PM
posted by selesrules:
As for Hingis, when she was booed in Paris 99, I bet if she was black then people would have blamed it on racism. Yes, racism exists and always will, but the HUGE majority of people 99% are not racist and black atheltes/stars are loved just like everyone else.

it is through such reasoning, that i wanted to know how old you are. I would understand it, if you were younger, but common you an adult, if really you are 24. For once try to make a intelligent discussion. That statement you made wasnt flattering to your intelligence :eek:

Helen Lawson
Nov 4th, 2002, 03:25 PM
Weren't at least some of you a little intrigued by the Fall season? It was nice to see someone like Patty win her first Tier I with some big wins, just like when Serena won Indian Wells in '99, her first Tier I. I had not seen Maggie play in years, it was fun to see her. I enjoyed some "new faces" this Fall, it does not make me a "hater" or whatever. I like V &S's games, they are great to watch, but it was fun to see some different stuff also.

irma
Nov 4th, 2002, 03:26 PM
maybe people can handle one oprah, but what if there were two:confused:

of course two dr. phil's would great anyway:)

selesrules
Nov 4th, 2002, 03:33 PM
It's funny that Navratilova and many others said the exact same as me :rolleyes: I bet they are idiots too. You're right poor Venus & Serena, they are loved everywhere, they are sponsors of biggest companies such as nike, mcDonalds, they are on tv shows everywhere. Heck I've never even seen any white tennis athlete get as much love and attention as Venus & Serena. When did Hingis or Davenport or Seles get as much love, attention, sponsors when they were on top?

Everything good and great that comes towards them is ignored, but then as soon as something small like "people not cheering too much in a particular match" happens, then everyone is labeled racist and all the good things are ignored. It's like Serena got booed at Indian wells because everyone is racist. But when Monica was booed after losing to Hingis, then it wasn't because everyone was racist. In both cases the public was disappointed with lack of tennis, it's no difference what the color was.

servenrichie
Nov 4th, 2002, 03:48 PM
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :sad: :sad: :mad: :mad:
Your IQ must be extremely low. re-read your post again and tell me something is not wrong with you. Seriously, either you are messed up or your dislike for V & S messed you up!

PhoenixStorm
Nov 4th, 2002, 03:49 PM
No the only people tired of venus and serena are the haters. So if youre tired of them guess what you are? A hater is someone who resents someone else's success. Obviously if you have nothing good to say about someone then you are a hater.

selesrules
Nov 4th, 2002, 03:51 PM
You know what , I'm sick of your one sentence insulting dumb replies without any arguments, so from now you can talk to yourself because I won't waste my time talking to you just to hear you making insulting comments towards me without any argument.

maya
Nov 4th, 2002, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by irma


of course two dr. phil's would great anyway:)

One dr. Phil is too much already ...

servenrichie
Nov 4th, 2002, 04:03 PM
posted by selesrules:
You know what , I'm sick of your one sentence insulting dumb replies without any arguments, so from now you can talk to yourself because I won't waste my time talking to you just to hear you making insulting comments towards me without any argument.

Did you go thru your posts again and found nothing wrong with what you wrote?
:p

I did not bother countering your arguments, because frankly i did not know that somebody can reason like that. But then maybe it is just truly out of ignorance, since from your posts i can guess, you are not a recipient of racism. On the other hand, i know you like to shock, you like to post negative things about Venus and Serena and yes i know we are only on a message board, but a little bit of sensitivity would not be bad.

BTW, where did you get the statistics that only 99% of the world population are racists? Just curious!

PhoenixStorm
Nov 4th, 2002, 04:06 PM
Venus and Serena where not the first blacks to win in tennis, not only that but all of their predecessors were understated almost to the point that it was as if they didn't want anyone to notice that they were black...


I disagree. How could you be so bold as to question arthur and althea and company that just because they were not outgoing that they somehow didnt want anyone to notice that they were black? That comment is ridiculous and offensive. Just by showing up you declare that you are black! Just by living your life! There is no way to 'act black". You can be quiet and composed, loud and gregarious or anything in between. Behavior does not define blackness, conciousness and self awareness does and from what I know of althea and arthur they both had it.

treufreund
Nov 4th, 2002, 05:08 PM
I think Martina suffers from the same phenomenon as the Williams. She was not an a-hole at the French but rather a young kid folding under the pressure and acting out. She was in a lot of pain and HURTING NOONE ELSE. Steffi Graf did not get hurt because Martina crossed the net. No, Steffi used it to her advantage and got the crowd on her side and mercilessly rubbed the salt in Martina's SELF-INFLICTED. Martina was wrong but not evil there. She was a child; Steffi was an adult and also acted a bit childish. And Steffi and martina are both my faves but let's not look at things so simply. It's easy to judge without thinking about how Martina was FEELING at the time. Her tears in front of the world were not FAKE and if you felt no sympathy for her then you are either heartless or racist yourself. Just because she acted out in that instance does not justify the attitude she still gets up until today. Are these people racists against whites? I doubt it. Venus and Serena have made a bad first impression and over the years various behaviours combined with domination at this point have not endeared them to everyone. To call all people who don't like them racists reveals a true lack of thinking. Simplistic thinking is easier cuz you can just write 4 quick sentences like Volcana but the devastating consequences of simplifying things outweighs the advantages of its facility.

on the other hand Capriati is the COUNTERexample. She made a good impression as a kid and then garnered sympathy for her drug problems and people have stuck by her even she is bratty. Same with Agassi who can be a MAJOR jerk at times. People on this board and in the public have proven to be VERY RESISTANT to changing their feeling towards players. Whether positive or negative. Once they become VESTED in an IDENTITY of pro or anti-x player they have a hard time overcoming their feelings. I am a perfect example of that because it's taken me a long time just to get to the point where I can honestly say I appreciate the talent of the Williams and sometimes (rarely admittedly) root for Serena. I doubt that they will ever be my faves but I did see Venus playing in San Diego and applauded EVERY SINGLE GOOD SHOT from and cannot imagine behaving otherwise. I wonder if most people on this board can say that.

veryborednow
Nov 4th, 2002, 05:21 PM
I don't want to get into this too much, but cooolconchita I'll use Darius as an example.

Darius = very confident in his success "I will have no. 1 single, platinum album"
V + S. Williams = very confident in his success "My main rival will be Serena/Venus for no. 1 and 2" they were saying this when they were younger..

...and although these were proven to be right (still waiting for that platinum album) there's something about overly confident people that make others root for their downfall/opponent.

DJs had a big campaign to convince people to not buy Darius' single so it wouldn't get to number one. People loved Nasty Nicks downfall. People get pissed off with Victoria Beckham cos she's confident in her ability but she has none. Ditto the Spice Girls etc..

And what is more agrivating is that they succeed (beat the opponent) Damn. Therefore no support.

GoGoMaggie
Nov 4th, 2002, 05:53 PM
I agree with PhonexStorm and understand selesroules opinons. i dont think she s ignorant.. she sounds rather intelligent and analytical to me. to someone who has blamed her ignorance, you are clearly wrong and what you r saying is completely stemming from your emotions but from your brains. like selesrules said, racists are everywhere and there s no way to stop them from acting the way they do. but then again, they dont construct the majority obviously. the ppl who are not by far outnumber them. i really understand her comments.. she didnt say anything that even sounded like insulting the sisters.. she just put it well in perspetive. sounded fair enough to me. very realisitic and down-to-earth. but having said that, it may not be possible for ppl like myself who have never experienced that kinda treatment to understand exaclty how they are treated.. i dont live in a society where different races co-exist. personally i ve stopped presenting any strong opinon as i was really reprimanded and i kinda reflected on what i said and realized some of them i said could be interupted as a hater's though they were meant to be. so i really dont know.. we just never know unless we are really in that situation. it s not easy to look at things from others stand points. i always try but that more often that not leads to misunderstanding and being labelled ignorant. as for controvesorys involving the sisters, i just think what they have achieved as sisters as well as individuals respetively are truly remarkable and deserve all the respect and admiration. im not a big fan of them but their tennis is no doubt great and watching their game has given me a lot of tips to become a better player.
but as someone said before, if someone gets tired of seeing them in a final or something, it doesnt or never mean(s) that he or she is a hater of the sisiters. when i first saw them face each other, i found myself really excited cuz that s something you r not supposed to see that often. and the second time i still looked forward to it and enjoyed it quite much. but as they played against each other more in the finals of big events, my interest in their matches dipped every match. but it didnt mean i got to hate them or dislike them. it s just natural for a human being to get bored if he does the same thing day in day out. that s the same thing. ppl always look for something new or different. it s a very common mind set in my opinion.
so probly if other players start beating them n preventing their finals, my interest may come back. like i was got fed up with monica-steffi final at one time. when monica came back and faced steffi in the final of the 95 u.s. open, i was really excited and thought it couldnt have been a better match up.
as for racism, i am really not in the position to say anything anymore. like some pointed out, i dont have the right to say anything analytical. i simply dont know the situation where racism occurs on a daily basis. but if that s really happening, i think that s gonna be worked on and improved. but then again, i still cant accept ppl who insult those who said something which sounded based on racism or haters' .

treufreund
Nov 4th, 2002, 06:06 PM
gogomaggie, nice to see that I am not the only one who writes LONG posts. Of course nobody really reads mine but I will keep trying :p

You make some excellent points and are quite balanced and fair. :)

"Topaz"
Nov 4th, 2002, 06:32 PM
Race is such a juicy subject. So many long threads about it! You have to understand it's a power relationship between groups.

Put simply, this is how it goes (the three stages). I want to dominate you and you object; I don't like that. Now, you even want to dominate me, oh gosh! I'm really starting to hate you. You finally ended up dominating me; how on earth can you expect me to like you at this moment?
Just food for thought, guys.

sartrista7
Nov 4th, 2002, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by PhoenixStorm
I disagree. How could you be so bold as to question arthur and althea and company that just because they were not outgoing that they somehow didnt want anyone to notice that they were black? That comment is ridiculous and offensive. Just by showing up you declare that you are black! Just by living your life! There is no way to 'act black". You can be quiet and composed, loud and gregarious or anything in between. Behavior does not define blackness, conciousness and self awareness does and from what I know of althea and arthur they both had it.

Agree with this. There is no set mode of behaviour which defines how 'black' you are (and to say that Venus and Serena 'act more black' is an insult to Ashe, Gibson etc). And what do you mean, no-one criticised Hingis for being arrogant?! How many times have I seen her (STILL) castigated here for being 'cocky', 'arrogant' etc?

As for the question - yes, I think race has something to do with it and it's not a factor anyone should ignore. One thing which no-one's touched on, though, is sexism. Not because they're women, but because they don't fit the Western ideal of what a woman's body shape should be. (You'll notice that Lindsay Davenport is hardly a crowd favourite either.) They're tall, they're strong, they're muscular - and, more than Lindsay/Amelie, they're always in the spotlight. Remember how the media used to characterise women's tennis as being full of butch lesbians in an attempt to undermine the sport? Same despicable thing happening here.

Devon
Nov 4th, 2002, 06:52 PM
Unfortunately in an open world like the internet you can't be stopped from spreading your poison. Some members on this board and any public board are not only jealous, resentful and haters, but they have to show it to the world. What hurts them the most is to be ignored by others, since it shows that nobody in this world cares about their low class behavior. But as long as people keep reacting to their harmful messages, their egos and hatred for those who enjoy success in life will become larger. As an act of cowardice, they will never show their faces or reveal identities. However, if this post gets any replies, they will be easily spotted.

Serena y Monica
Nov 4th, 2002, 10:36 PM
Phoenix

I don't know what world you live in but there is being black and "being black". Because a person is understated doesn't mean that they are not being black...but in the world of the majority there are two kinds of black people, (not saying I agree or disagree) let's call them the Martin Luther King's and the Malcom X's. I know very little of Althea and her stance on social issues but I do know that Arthur (according to his own writtings) went out of his way to be what the majority called a "credit to his race" he even predicted Venus and Serena saying that one day the sport would be visited by blacks who would not be willing to hold their tongues or stay in their place. Of course this doesn't mean that he wasn't as black as say Malcom or the Williams but it does say that he knowingly...willingly chose not to call attention to the issues which he and others of his race faced every day...and to a much greater extent than you or I could even imagine. I'm not judging his blackness just stating that he didn't wish to call attention to his blackness in a way that made the majority feel uncomfortable

If reality offends you...stay offended. You stated the obvious...it's the reason there can be no true assimalation for blacks in America...there is no hiding from being black, but that's not to say that regardless of your indignation that there are those of us who in the words of Harry Belafonte...choose to live in the big house...if the discription doesn't fit, then don't try to read into what I say. Arthur was no Tiger but he was understated.

harloo
Nov 5th, 2002, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by Serena y Monica
Phoenix

I don't know what world you live in but there is being black and "being black". Because a person is understated doesn't mean that they are not being black...but in the world of the majority there are two kinds of black people, (not saying I agree or disagree) let's call them the Martin Luther King's and the Malcom X's. I know very little of Althea and her stance on social issues but I do know that Arthur (according to his own writtings) went out of his way to be what the majority called a "credit to his race" he even predicted Venus and Serena saying that one day the sport would be visited by blacks who would not be willing to hold their tongues or stay in their place. Of course this doesn't mean that he wasn't as black as say Malcom or the Williams but it does say that he knowingly...willingly chose not to call attention to the issues which he and others of his race faced every day...and to a much greater extent than you or I could even imagine. I'm not judging his blackness just stating that he didn't wish to call attention to his blackness in a way that made the majority feel uncomfortable

If reality offends you...stay offended. You stated the obvious...it's the reason there can be no true assimalation for blacks in America...there is no hiding from being black, but that's not to say that regardless of your indignation that there are those of us who in the words of Harry Belafonte...choose to live in the big house...if the discription doesn't fit, then don't try to read into what I say. Arthur was no Tiger but he was understated.

Good post Serena Y Monica. I agree with this 100%.

servenrichie
Nov 5th, 2002, 09:13 AM
here too Serena y Monica. That was a concise post regarding the topic at hand. I have said this before, i shall repeat. None of the Williams fan on this board (that i know of) has attributed only racism to the dislike of V & S. There are ppl who dislike them
specifically because of racism and there are others who just doesnt like them. A lot of individuals who continue saying they are being called racist because they hate V & S may really need to search their soul, because no one here is saying that.

Gogomaggie after reading your posts /threads in the last few days/weeks, i have come to the conclusion that you can be sane and concise when you want, but tend to ramble when it comes to V & S and racism. If you live in a 'uni-racial' society, how come at every turn, you get in a thread to offer your opinions on racism? You agreed with Selesrules that the majority in this world are not racist. Based on what? Based on your 'uni-racial' society, thats never had ugly confrontation with the issue of racism?, based on the various posts / threads on this board? Based on what exactly ?
You ramble and ramble and end up not making much sense!

cooolconchita
Nov 5th, 2002, 01:59 PM
this has become an interesting discussion guys, and i think EVERYONE has proven themselves to be intelligent and thoughtful. well done :kiss:

my own personal opinion is - i hate to be boring - a mixture of things. YES, part of it is their colour, we would be stupid to think it isn't, but i have to agree with some posters, that it was the 'we are gonna be the no1 and no2' shouts from 97, that didn't rub well on some people (the majority of whom, didn't believe they would), and despite the fact they have changed as people since then, unfortunately, the 'fans' don't. :o

jenn is a great example someone used, she is a complete brat now, but was sweet as a kid, so people stay with the opinion they first had of her. new fans to the game mostly dislike jenn for her behaviour, which at least gives me hope that in the future, new fans to the game will appreciate the talents of venus and serena. amen. :kiss:

servenrichie
Nov 5th, 2002, 02:09 PM
Amen!

PhoenixStorm
Nov 5th, 2002, 02:21 PM
Arthur made his choice to lead his life a certain way, so did malcom and so did martin luther king. So tell me, who accomplished more, malcolm or martin? What does violence beget but more violence? What does attacking someone beget but more attacks? Malcom was a great man and I understand totally his viewpoint but martin luther king did more to change society than malcolm did. However it was malcolm who lit the fire for some people to get up and get involved.

Also the people who think there are only two kinds of blacks the good accomodating one and the trouble maker are RACISTS! Who cares what these people think? I had a guy once who I was dating and then one day out of the blue he says, " i was worried i couldnt take you home for thanksgiving but youre different than other black guys." What the hell was that? That was racist and ugly and I let him know right then and there. He couldn't see what he had done at first but after we talked he had to so soul searching and I wasn't about to play Touched by Angel and hold his hand on a guided tour of his preconceptions and assumptions of black people.

Serena y Monica
Nov 8th, 2002, 02:57 AM
Sorry to just address this thread but I visit sporadicly(sp).

Phoenix

On the Martin v Malcom tip...I think Malcom was the catalyst for change. Martin's dream would not have come this far if there had not been those radicals who said "keep you peace...an eye for an eye". The haves give only what is wrested from them. It was the threat of revolution not brotherly love that has enduced the majority to perpatrate the illusions of equality and oppurtunity underwhich 60-70% of Americans cling.

At least this is my opinion...I suppose it is really a chicken or egg question.